Frank Thomas
Posted: February 15th, 2010 | Filed under: Baseball | 146 Comments »
Frank Thomas is probably the most prominent non-steroid user in baseball history. Of course, we can’t know the secret lives of bees or people. But every indication is that Frank Thomas avoided steroids. He was so public about his disgust over performance enhancing drugs. He advocated steroid testing fifteen years ago. He came forward to talk to the Mitchell Report people. If he used steroids, it was one hell of an act.
It’s a funny thing about the Selig Era — we don’t really know much. But as time goes on, we seem to build in our collective minds a short list of players who definitely used steroids, a list of players who probably used steroids and another short list of players who, surely, did not. The definite users are easier, of course, because they were caught or the evidence against them piles high or they offered something resembling an admission.
We know (or strongly suspect) these players used:
– Barry Bonds
– Mark McGwire
– Jason Giambi
– Alex Rodriguez
– Roger Clemens
– Andy Pettitte
– Sammy Sosa
– David Ortiz
– Gary Sheffield
– Manny Ramirez
– Rafael Palmeiro
– Etc.
Then we have a much longer list of players who PROBABLY used steroids … a list we all concoct using logic, detective work, circumstantial evidence, innuendo and recklessness. Of course, we don’t talk about these players publicly because it would be unfair and spiteful and wildly irresponsible. There are land mines everywhere.
Take just one case: Brady Anderson. We all know that Anderson famously hit 50 home runs in 1996, and he never hit more than 24 home runs in any other season.
I cannot remember: Did Anderson ever admit using steroids?
I have to look it up: No, he has not.
Jim Palmer once suggested that Anderson was a steroid user, and soon after Anderson came out with a strong denial (“I know what I accomplished, am proud of it, and know that it was done with integrity,” he said). Cal Ripken then seconded Anderson’s denial (“To me, it was all about him being locked in,” Cal said). Anderson admitted using the legal supplement creatine — admitted and defended it — but that’s a whole other thing.
So, we know that Brady Anderson became only he 12th person in baseball history to hit 50 home runs — and he was the only one to never hit at least 39 homers in another season.* We know that Anderson was, in the words of Cal Ripken, ahead of his time when it came to workout patterns and diets. Ripken: “Brady always had a much more advanced concept of cross-training and plyometrics and his diet. He was just ahead of the curve.” And we also know that Anderson never tested positive for anything and he aggressively denies that he ever used anything illegal. Go ahead. Make your call. Jump into that briar patch.
And remember Brady Anderson is just ONE PLAYER. Now go ahead and play that same detective game with the 126 other players who hit 30 or more homers from 1990 to 2003 — not to mention the thousands of other players and pitchers in the big leagues.
*Two other players — Roger Maris and Hack Wilson — had famous outlier seasons. Maris, of course hit 61 in ‘61. Wilson, of course, hit 56 home runs and drove in 191 RBIs in 1930.
What’s interesting, to me, is their second best home run seasons happened one earlier. And they are similar.
Wilson in 1929 hit .345/.425/.618 with 39 homers, a league leading 159 RBIs.
Maris in 1960 hit .283/.371/.581 with 39 homers and league-leading 112 RBIs.
In context, those seasons are very similar. Maris posted a 161 OPS+ to Wilson’s 155. Wilson punched up 32 win shares to Maris’ 31. Maris had 7.5 wins above replacement, Wilson’s WAR was 6.7.
Then there is the non-users list. The fair play list. This is a list of players — and everyone has their own list — who we have to believe, deep down, did not use performance enhancing drugs. How does someone get on this list? Well, it’s tricky because just about everyone SAYS that they did not use PEDs. And as soon as you start to celebrate someone, someone else writes a book about him.
Still, by consensus, I would say a Fair Play List might look a little bit like this (feel free to add your own players):
– Frank Thomas
– Ken Griffey
– Greg Maddux
– Pedro Martinez
– David Eckstein
– Jamie Moyer
– Every Royals hitter since 1985.*
*You probably know this, but the Kansas City Royals’ record for most homers in a season is 36 … set in 1985. Not only is this the lowest home run record in baseball, but just from 1994-2002, every team in baseball had someone hit more than 36 home runs except the Royals and the Minnesota Twins. You know how they say in “Field of Dreams” that the 1960s never came to Iowa. Well, it’s like the steroid era never came to Kansas City and Minnesota. Or, more likely, the Royals and Twins could only afford the steroid users who did not hit a lot of home runs.
Thomas and Griffey are the outliers on the Fair Play List because they were both big power hitters in an era of big power hitters. Their numbers fit in and often overshadow players we know used steroids. But they are different. Griffey is widely viewed as a fair play guy because of circumstantial evidence. He pretty famously did not work out much (or, often, at all) and his body type stayed more or less the same — thin, wiry strong, he LOOKED like ballplayers from earlier eras. And his career arc is more traditional too — he developed big power five years into his career, peaked at 27, was good until 30, and has battled injuries ever since. Plus Griffey never seemed like the type to use. Plus he has been somewhat outspoken about having never used steroids or any of that. None of this, of course, precludes the possibility — like I say, we don’t know what we don’t know. But we like having Griffey on our Fair Play List.
Thomas is different. He did work out. He did look like the football player he was at Auburn. He’s on the Fair Play List by force — he has been on the PED front lines ever since he got into the big leagues. Even in the early 1990s, he expressed surprise that there was no testing in Major League Baseball. He is on record calling for testing as early as 1995. He has been quoted many times either saying or hinting that other players were taking short cuts that he refused to take. He gave video testimony before Congress. He was the only active player who willingly spoke with George Mitchell. If we want to believe that Griffey is the Willie Mays of the steroid era — rarely saying anything controversial but hoping to make his case with his brilliant play — then Thomas is the Jackie Robinson, outspoken, raw, controversial and proud of his high standards.
I bring all this up now because Frank Thomas just retired and, impossibly, people are “discussing” whether he belongs in the Hall of Fame. I find this stunning. This takes a discussion? Frank Thomas is not only a Hall of Famer, but unless he has been pulling off one of the greatest scams in baseball history, he and Greg Maddux are probably the clearest cut Hall of Fame players of their era. Thomas should not just go into the Hall of Fame, he should go in unanimously.
Let’s start with Thomas the player.
For his career, Thomas has a .300 batting average and 500 home runs. That right there should make him an absolute Hall of Fame lock. Nine players in baseball have that combination — and only seven of them pulled it off with no steroid stain on their careers (A-Rod and MannyBManny are the other two). The seven are:
1. Hank Aaron
2. Babe Ruth
3. Willie Mays
4. Jimmie Foxx
5. Ted Williams
6. Mel Ott
7. Frank Thomas
Not bad, eh? Ruth, Foxx and Ott all played before integration. Williams might be the greatest hitter in baseball history. Mays might be the greatest all-around player in baseball history. Aaron might be the most consistent player in baseball history. And Frank Thomas — well, he was perhaps the most vocal non-steroid user of the Selig Era.
But even that not does begin to capture just how good a hitter Frank Thomas was in his prime. I have shown this comparison before, but no matter how many times I see it, I find it absolutely amazing:
Frank Thomas’s first eight full seasons: .330/.452/.604, 250 homers, 100 runs and 100 RBIs eight times, 182 OPS+.
Albert Pujols’ first eight full seasons: .334/.425/.652, 319 homers, 100 runs and 100 RBIs seven times, 170 OPS+.
Yes, eight years into his career, Thomas was every bit as good or better than Pujols. Now, Pujols’ ninth season was in many ways his best yet, and he looks to be on his way to becoming the greatest right-handed hitter in baseball history. But that’s the point — that looked to be Thomas’ destiny in 1997. Greatest right-handed hitter ever. He had already won two MVPs and could have won at least two others. He had won a batting title, four on-base percentage titles, three OPS+ titles, and he led the league in doubles, runs, slugging ….
Then, he turned 30. And he aged rapidly. Injuries. Inconsistency. Thomas only had one more great season, 2000, when he hit .328/.436/.625 with a career high 43 homers and 143 RBIs. He did hit 42 homers in 2003, and had enough big hits in 2006 to finish fourth in the MVP voting, but by then he was no longer than transcendent hitter he had been as a young man. After 2000, Thomas never again hit .300 — he hit .262/.376/.507. He still walked a ton, and he whacked enough home runs to make himself useful. But this was not Frank Thomas at his best.
When Frank Thomas was at his best — he was a line drive hitter with power and remarkable discipline.
Seasons with 100 runs, 100 RBIs, 100 walks and .300 average:
1. Babe Ruth, 12
2. Lou Gehrig, 10
3. Frank Thomas, 8
(tied) Barry Bonds, 8
(tied) Ted Williams, 8
6. Jimmie Foxx, 6
7. Mel Ott, 5
Thomas was not a good fielder, of course — he actually spent more games at DH than first base — and he was famously slow on the bases in the later years of his career. But he’s one of the greatest hitters in baseball history, and an absolute Hall of Fame slam dunk.
But then, there’s the second part. We all understand that the Hall of Fame voters, as a group, have little sympathy or respect for steroid users. McGwire’s historic home run pace registers less than 25% approval rating among voters. Rafael Palmeiro put up obscene career numbers — 3,000 hits, 550 homers, more than 1,800 RBIs — but his Hall of Fame case seems dead on arrival. There will be many people who will not vote for Barry Bonds, despite his 762 career home runs and five-year span as the greatest hitter the game ever saw. We all know that.
So what about Frank Thomas? If you assume he was clean — and it seems a pretty good assumption — then how can you possibly NOT vote for him? Here is somebody who represented the highest level of integrity at a time when there was no drug testing, no stigma attached to steroid use and almost no chance of getting caught. Here is somebody who not only did not use steroids but spoke out against them … AND he still hit like crazy.
There are so many inconsistencies in how we as the general public seem to feel about PEDs in baseball. But one thing that should be consistent — it seems to me that if we are going to savage the players who did use, we should certainly seek out and celebrate the players who did not.
One of the things I love in journalism are headlines with questions in them … especially questions that can easily be answered. So when I see the headline: “Is Frank Thomas a Hall of Famer?” I hope that the story does not have 2,096 words like this one. It only needs one word: Yes.
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GO USA
Circle me, Steve Balboni
can we put Rick Helling on the Fair Play list? Not that he deserves such stature from his playing ability, but he should get some credit for having the cojones to try and stop this whole thing before it got out of hand….
It’s true that the steroid era of 94-02 never came to Minnesota, but there are rumors that the Twins may have been WAY ahead of the PED curve. I have friends who will never forgive Bill James for this: http://www.bugsandcranks.com/the-clubhouse/baseball/bill-james-thinks-steroids-fueled-the-twins-two-championships/
Makes you wonder what happened between the alleged ’91 steroid fest and the twenty-year drought that followed.
Damn straight.
Joe, did you leave Derek Jeter off of the Fair Play list just to get Yankee fans like me riled up?
is it actually a debate? are there people saying he SHOULDN’T have a plaque?
Can we add Kirby Puckett to the Fair Play list?
Circle me the big hurt
Derek Jeter belongs on the Fair Play list
Lance Berkman for the Fair Play List
I swear, I’m not doing this to tick off Yankee fans (re: No. 6), but anyone who doesn’t decline in his mid-30s, I have trouble giving a benefit of the doubt.
Circle me, Juan Gone.
Just read the link posted by Aaron above. Maybe no on Kirby to the Fair Play list.
Great post, I couldn’t agree more.
Um, Ken Griffey Jr.?
Of course Thomas is a Hall of Famer. End of discussion. I want to bring up something else. While I do tend to believe Griffey was clean, I find this logic a bit faulty:
“Griffey is widely viewed as a fair play guy because of circumstantial evidence. He pretty famously did not work out much (or, often, at all) and his body type stayed more or less the same — thin, wiry strong, he LOOKED like ballplayers from earlier eras. . . . Plus Griffey never seemed like the type to use. Plus he has been somewhat outspoken about having never used steroids or any of that.”
Couldn’t ALL those things be said about Alex Rodriguez before the revelations about his use? ARod doesn’t have a Bonds-like head. He publicly denied use.
And ya know, I don’t think it’s unfair to suspect or accuse ANYBODY who played in this era. For one thing, this isn’t a courtroom where guilty beyond a reasonable doubt is required. More importantly, all of these players had the opportunity to do what Thomas has done. They all could have spoken out against it. They didn’t. They didn’t pressure their union to act. They are complicit in the whole thing, and so as far as I’m concerned, their punishment is the suspicion and speculation.
And Joe, the Royals went out and got a couple PED guys this offseason! They’re part of their new starting outfield.
He deserves to get in. I just hope Edgar is in by then too.
“we should certainly seek out and celebrate the players who did not.”
But this is one of the biggest “tragedies” of the steroid era. We don’t do this because can’t do this. Because we can’t know and therefore everyone is under suspicion. Even the fairplay list. We think those guys didn’t use. We feel pretty sure they didn’t. But who among us could say that we know they didn’t?
Frank is one of my favorite players and I was sad to see that he retired. I’m happy though that now he is beginning to get his just due for his career. While he was playing I rarely thought that he did.
It still boggles my mind that Thomas was the only one to talk to Mitchell… What did the rest of them have to hide?
#12 – Jeter had been declining in his mid-thirties before this year. He had a bounce-back year, to be sure, but I’m not entirely sure how that’s any more suspect than what Frank Thomas did in his age-36 season, especially since players with Jeter’s body type typically age better than players built like the Hurt. I’m not accusing Thomas in any way, but are their really any reasonable suspicions about Derek Jeter?
Eric: Nah, I think I’d still vote Kirby for Fair Play list. I just put up that link to point out how even smart people like Bill James will grasp at straws sometimes with these steroid allegations. I’ve seen as many Twins games as anybody in America over the last 25 years, and, let me tell you, our hitters are not on anything. Pitchers, on the other hand … (/shakes head at Juan Rincon)
Joe…how’d you get so awesome? I write for my college newspaper, and it’s taking every fiber of my being to not make this the basic argument for my next column. Even if I did, I know I’d never be able to make the argument as well as you do.
As a lifelong Red Sox fan, even I must concede that Derek Jeter, Bernie Williams and Mariano Rivera belong on the Fair Play list. If they had used, it’s fair to presume that McNamee or Radomski would have implicated them.
Kirby Puckett doesn’t belong on a Fair Play list, because his career ended before steroid use became prevalent. He’s presumed innocent, just as contemporaries like Joe Carter and Don Mattingly are.
Not to sidetrack a nice discussion of a great player, but Bill James’s discussion of the Twins in 1987 and 1991 (and the possible use of PEDs by Gaetti and Puckett) was an example of IRONY. It was not to be taken seriously, though apparently a number of Twins’ fans didn’t get that.
I guess he should have used George Foster’s 1977 season instead, then maybe the literary use of IRONY would have been understood.
Ichiro on the fair play list? How about Tom Glavine?
To me one of the really big problems baseball has a sport is it’s inability to properly acknowledge greatness.
That there is even a question in the minds of writers/fans as to whether Thomas is a first ballot HOF is just mind-numbingly unbelievable.
It’s pretty amazing how under-appreciated Thomas is/was. I think the strike of 94-95 and playing for the White Sox hurt his perception a little bit.
Thomas’ 156ops+ is the 15th best since 1901 for a player with at least 6000P.A.
Thomas’ 2003 Runs Created is 19th all time in baseball history.
Easily one of the top 20 offensive players in baseball history.
He ranks 43rd all time in career WAR.
Also, he was one of the few players of his generation NOT to do steroids.
Overall he’s easily one of the top 50 players in baseball history. He should be a lock HOF.
Baseball suffers when it can’t even properly acknowledge and promote a player that ranks among the top 50 in the sport and a player who was/is extremely vocal against the use of PED in baseball.
“If he used steroids, it was one hell of an act.”
This is especially true since Thomas, during his Chicago years, was famous for saying things in the worst way possible. It didn’t take much effort to twist quotes into a reflection of his alleged selfishness.
So not only would he have had to stick his neck out there and demand testing when he was using all along, but it would require a sense of awareness that was almost foreign to him during the first three-fourths of his career.
And if *that’s* the case, he should be in the Hall for being so GD brilliant.
Brent: Eh, maybe he was being ironic, maybe he wasn’t, but the problem is that he WAS taken seriously by a lot of people (and I think the reason Twins fans got upset about it was because a lot of other people took James offhand comment as gospel and used it as ammo against those Twins teams).
You’re right, though … let’s get back to a discussion of a guy Twins fans hate for legitimate, being-awesome-at-baseball-and-killing-the-Twins-for-more-than-a-decade reasons.
I agree with Joe, as it seems everyone here does: Thomas HOF for sure
@#4 – Bill James was joking. He wrote that in the context of everyone suggesting that all those other seasons must have been the result of beginning/stopping PED use.
Say it’s a tasteless joke, but it’s a joke nonetheless.
I know everyone is already nominating people, but I’d add Randy Johnson the the Fair Play List. He just doesn’t seem the type. He seems much more of the freak of nature variety than the steroid user.
Also, Griffey has to be as much of a slam dunk as Thomas and Maddux.
#22 Kevin, I have to disagree with your assertion that “especially since players with Jeter’s body type typically age better than players built like the Hurt.” That is kind of an apples to oranges thing there. You could turn it around and say 1B/DH’s tend not to break down like middle infielders.
wait, it’s obvious to you guys that pedro didn’t use steroids?
All I can say about Frank Thomas is that I am a die-hard Royals fan, I HATE the White Sox and I HATE steroids, but Frank Thomas is my all-time favorite baseball player. This definition of transcendent fits him beautifully: Being above and independent of the material universe.
We can put Runelvys Hernandez on the no steroids list. That is more of a lock than Frank Thomas.
You say Royals players since 85 missed the steroid era, I do not agree. In the 2000′s the Royals had
Jose Lima
Jason Grimsley
Benito Santiago
Juan Gonzalez
So they were cheating too but much like the current Royals roster the front office did not know how to choose the users that were actually baseball players too.
Frank Thomas definitely deserves a near unanimous vote into the Hall and he will get it, no question.
Derek Jeter *has* declined. His defense, especially, is much worse now than it was years ago. He’s slower.
Having the benefit of hitting in front of some of the best hitters in baseball for his entire career should be taken into consideration when one thinks on his offense remaining relatively unscathed.
It’s funny to me that Pedro Martinez is on the ‘Fair Play List’ because I always thought that he was one player to have likely used PEDs.
I always find it interesting the players that are assumed to be clean by the public / media. Sometimes I think it’s that they wish the players to be that unless otherwise proven, while others are guilty until proven innocent.
I’d like to nominate Dale Murphy to the Fair Play list. Dale Murphy defines 1980′s baseball AND he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.
Just like Yankee fans to cloud this with a Jeter conversation. He doesn’t get talked about enough. That obviously wasn’t his whole “clean” list.
Jason461@ 32:
To me, this is where the discussion runs off the rails. You’re free to believe whatever you want about Randy Johnson. I don’t have strong feelings one way or the other. But objectively, he seems like the EPITOME of a steroids suspect and to suggest he belongs on the fair play list…I mean the guy won 4 straight Cys in his age 35, 35, 37, and 38 season and put up a 177 ERA+ when he was 40. And he came back from serious back problems that nearly ended his career. And he did this in the heart of the steroids era.
To me, all of that adds up to a suspect. More than that, it makes him perhaps suspect #1 among players who have not been specifically accused of using. It doesn’t mean he used. But he seems less appropriate for the fair play list than almost anyone I can think of.
“Sometimes I think it’s that they wish the players to be that unless otherwise proven, while others are guilty until proven innocent.”
Well when guys like Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, etc. put up numbers that were never seen before and do not have the histories to back them up, then yes, they’re guilty. Also, guys like Brady Anderson or Adrian Beltre who came out of nowhere and had numbers clearly out of the norm, but could never repeat those performances. Or someone like Andruw Jones who just suddenly falls of a cliff IN THE MIDDLE OF HIS PRIME.
There are a lot of guys out there that it’s just so obvious they should come clean to save face.
The list of 7 players that have 500 HR and .300 BA that do not have questions about steroid use is misleading since 4 to 6 of them most likely used a different PED in the form of speed aka greenies. If you want to paint one group with a wide brush of accusations its only fair to paint other groups with valid accusations.
i say this as someone who considers frank thomas one of their least favorite players ever (sports are more fun with villians and thomas worked for me), he should be a no brain hall of famer. unlike joe (also, rob neyer, surely among others), i think thomas WILL get in on the first ballot, without too much fuss. right now we focus on how overlooked he seems to be, but by the time he’s on the ballot in a few years, the focus on thomas will have returned to his peak. i think he gets in on the first ballot, with 80-85% of the vote.
Add Neifi Perez to the dirty list. Always a good example of why one should take steroids, and not expect to put up insane numbers.
@39 I second that motion. I have been electronically laughed at before on this site for even hinting Pedro may not have been clean.
Bookmark this column for when FT gets on the ballot. JoPos leaves no doubt.
I always think it’s interesting that personality had to do with the Fair Play list. A guy like thome is always put on the list. Partially, because he was always huge and partially because Gentleman Jim could not be nicer.
I’m a bit disappointed that the list of known users only includes the high profile players.
@40… I’m not sure what you think it means that Murphy “defines” 1980′s baseball, but I suspect that’s only true if you grew up in an NL city. Schmidt, Brett, Henderson….
I snuck a look at Murphy’s comp list via baseball reference. His best comp through age 27? Tony Conigliaro.
It brings to mind Tom Lehrer’s quote: “It is a sobering thought that when Mozart was my age, he had been dead for two years.”
I’m partial to the line from Confessions of a Dangerous Mind: You’re 32 years old, and you’ve achieved nothing. Jesus Christ was dead and alive again by 33. You better get crackin’
I’m always surprised when anyone is thought to be “totally clean.” I think the safer assumption is that nearly everyone used them at one time or another. Add in the fact that Thomas played tight end at a major college football power, I think we can be fairly certain that he used them at least in college. If he used them then, why wouldn’t he continue?
Awesome post Joe. I love the fact that, while the public perception is that PED users invariably end up bigger physically, one of the most hulking players in Major League history is on the Fair Play List. Frank was one of my all-time favorites to watch.
If Anderson juiced that one year, maybe he shouldn’t have stopped.
Look, outliers are part of the fun of baseball (and everything else). I always liken Anderson to Davy Johnson, who hit 43 HR’s in 1973. His next best season was 18. In 1972, he hit FIVE. Was he juicing that one year? And if so, why did he stop in 1974, when he hit 15?
And if Johnson wasn’t juicing, why couldn’t Anderson have done the same thing? Or are we to believe that all pre-1988 outliers were legit, and all post-1988 were ‘roid-fueled?
The one-year outliers are just a *terrible* argument for trying to prove steroid usage. If anything, they push the opposite way. If Anderson and Johnson discovered that juicing more than doubled their previous HR output, and they had zero incentive to STOP juicing, why did their numbers go back to normal for the rest of their careers?
Great column. I am a lifelong White Sox fan, and Frank is my favorite player of all time. How anyone could think otherwise is beyond me.
*Every Royals hitter since 1985*
Did you forget about Neifi Perez? I believe he was a user.
@49 -
He was??
http://tinyurl.com/yz6e3o3
Or here….
http://tinyurl.com/yj9532u
How do you know Frank Thomas didn’t juice? No, seriously — how do you KNOW?
You don’t. You can suspect. In fact, you can strongly suspect. But you don’t KNOW.
You don’t know if Maddux, Big Unit — certainly not Griffey — any of the players did or did not do the PEDs. You simply cannot be sure.
Take Jeff Kent, for example. Great, great numbers for a second baseman. No clue, really, if he did or didn’t juice.
Look, all I’m saying is this: they’re either all in, or they’re all out. There is no other fair way to do it… Or is there?
Here’s an idea: a separate wing of the Baseball HOF, for the years 1990-2010. You forget all the “juice” questions and simply vote based on performance. But…you keep those guys away from Frank Robinson, Harmon Killabrew, Willie Mays and all the greats who we DO KNOW played clean.
And that, my friends, seems to be the only 100% fair and accurate way to vote. (I mean, God forbid someone doesn’t vote for Randy Johnson because he’s not sure if the Unit did the big nasty. Because, if he was clean, he may be the last 300 game winner we see in our lifetimes, and you could make the argument he’s the great lefthander in MLB history.)
Last point: if you believe — as ARod would ask you to — that the only years Rodriguez juiced were (conveniently) the only years we had evidence, I’ve got some land in Florida to sell you. (It’s the land he played high school ball on, and if you dig up the dirt, who knows how many syringes you could find there?)
Frank Thomas was the kind of big that steroids don’t seem to bequeath to a person. Like Mo Vaughn big.
I thought Pujols was on everyone’s Fair Play list, but maybe Joe is considering him a post–Steroids Era player.
Re: Pedro/Jeter: I wouldn’t put steroids past either of them. I think Yankees fans think Jeter is purer of heart and more of an idyllic “Yankee” than he truly is. Might not be fair, but it’s hard to put anyone on those Yankee squads above suspicion when there are/were so many “confirmed” users in that same clubhouse.
Also Jeter is *not* wiry strong. Alfonso Soriano is wiry strong; Jeter’s plenty thick.
#59, nobody wants to see the HOF become so segmented. It would lessen the achievement to have a wing of pre-1900′s players, pre-integration players, and steroid era players being seen as ‘lesser’ than the guys who played between 1947 and 1985. (Besides, it’s not like the guys in that era weren’t on greenies or who knows what else.)
Why is David Eckstein on the non-users list? Who has more incentive to use, a star to whom steroids can make the difference between a $16M salary and a $9M salary, or a little guy to whom a boost in strength and power can make the difference between a $2M salary and a job as an assistant high school coach. Guys (like me!) who are not strong enough to hit a major league fastball 300 feet have the most incentive to use.
Yeah, I was shocked to flip on MLB Network and see “Is Frank Thomas a Hall of Famer?” I think some of it is the same DH-syndrome that affected Edgar.
PS – Jose Guillen used steroids.
to #60 – 6’3, 175 is not what I would call “thick”.
Let’s not forget Chad Curtis for the fair play list.
This is a guy that one of the first and most outspoken about steroids. His complaints were like spitting into a typhoon. He even took his complaints about player safety directly to Donald Fehr, who blew him off.
Also, for the Twins comments, let’s not forget Dan Naulty who basically has said his use of steroids before and with the Twins was the reason he even was in the big leagues.
Also, one other non-sequitur, did you know that Scott Boras has a PharmD degree? I didn’t until just a few minutes ago. Things that make you go hmmm…..
@64 and @60
Eckstein weighs 5 lbs less than Jeter while being 9 inches shorter.
@54 Steve D – I have been arguing that point for years. Pre-1980′s outliers are generally deemed to be just that, outliers. While post-1980′s-ish outliers are deemed to be PED creations, but as you postulated, if Brady Anderson hit 50 in 1996 why did he stop in 1997 and Johnson’s 43 in 1973? What about Kevin Mitchell’s 47 in 1989? What about Jim Gentile’s 46 in 1961? What about Dick Hildalgo’s 44 in 2000? What about Jeff Burroughs 41 in 1977? Todd Hundley’s 41 in 1996? Darrell Evans’ 41 in 1973 and 40 in 1985 (interestingly Evans was on Johnson’s Braves team in 1973)? Barfield’s 40 in 1986? Fred Lynn’s 39 in 1979? Bob Cerv’s 38 in 1958? Jay Bell’s 38 in 1999? Gabby Hartnett’s 37 in 1930.
I’m not implying that these seasons were absolute outliers or that all of these players didn’t use PEDs, I’m just wondering what caused these outliers. Just because they happened doesn’t mean they were accomplished illicitly.
PED usage is a strange beast. What if Griffey Jr. decided to give it a try in the late 90′s (again, why wouldn’t he? It wasn’t illegal. It wasn’t tested. His many teammates/peers were using it) for a 4-week cycle … but then didn’t like the side effects? So he quits after a week. Would he be a PED USER? I mean, there’s so many levels of PED use – intention, duration, etc.
The gap between public perception and reality has been bridged in recent years. Athletes we thought were beacons of integrity and “old-school” mentality (which is funny since old-school = cheating in other ways) have been exposed. So what’s the point of making lists of “users” and “suspected users” and “probably didn’t use”?
NO ONE is exempt from suspicion. So it’s much ado about nothing. Who cares? It was a level playing field.
60, 64 and 66,
Not sure where you guys are getting your height weight info, but last year listing for those two players was:
Jeter 6’3″ 195
Eckstein 5’7″ 177
My guess is the weight is a little low for both players. At a few inches over six feet I have a hard time believing Jeter is under 200 pounds. He isn’t skinny. He is a healthy athletic adult in his thirties.
PEDs were invented in 1918 on a WWI military grant. Amazingly the dead ball era ended right about that time. I think every homer hit in baseball is suspect to PEDs since then. Guys who hit more homers in a season than anyone else, and who died of cancer are the most likely steroid users.
Re: the original article, the whole premise is flawed. The idea that there is a list of people we know is clean is foolhardy; we have been proven time and time again that we cannot have such a list. Wasn’t A-Rod on this list a year or 18 months ago? I appreciate that you write the caveat that “we cannot ever really know for sure,” but for you then to compose this list of people we’re pretty sure didn’t use is to ignore your own caveat and your own common sense.
I’m guessing if FT is getting any questioning as a HOF candidate, it is mostly writers who are grasping for something interesting to say. I figure that will subside enough for Thomas to sail in on the first ballot.
For me, I have a long list of “yeah he was probably clean,” but not much of a “no way he used” list. Who’s to say Maddux never popped a greenie for extra big games? I don’t think he did, but it’s not like we hung out that often. We have to go on reputation for so much of this that Nice Guys (Thome, Jeter, Glavine, etc.) get passes, because if they were using we have almost no way to make sense of the Steroid Era other than blanket statements and how “typical” or “steroidal” someone’s career arc was.
And Joe, you can put me on the user list. Everyone knows I used steroid creams for years to deal with my eczema. I’m actually surprised I didn’t make it in the original post.
Frank Thomas used steroids, just like all the other cheaters. Don’t you know all these steroid cheats would say and do anything to make you believe they didn’t pump roids in their veins?
Frank Thomas is just another cheater, like ALL the rest!
#57; looks pretty big to me.
#58; touche.
#1 on my “shocked he used steroids” list would be Cal Ripken Jr. I would wander aimlessly for days and I think Skip Bayless’s head would explode.
The Big Hurt has a well-deserved reputation as a difficult and often unpleasant human being. That said, if he doesn’t make it into the Hall on the first ballot, baseball is even more messed up than it seems.
Am I the only one who noticed that Frank Thomas’ nose was identical with that of none other than Darryl Strawberry, a cocaine user? Clearly Frank WAS a drug user.
Fred Lynn is on my “Should have done steroids (presuming he didn’t)” list. So is David Howard.
This just brings up he one issue that really bugs me the most about the steroid era: He had to this competing against many others who were cheating. This also impacts his stats like ops+ where his production is measured against the average of the era. Frank Thomas was really better then his stats show.
Great read as always.
One comment: Felix Heredia was busted for PEDs. I think this proves the folly of saying, “I believe Player X didn’t do steroids because he didn’t have the body of a steroid user.”
Luis Gonzalez’s high was 57; next highest was 31. You missed that one in your Anderson comment. Of course Anderson was juicing. Gonzalez was, too.
And Albert Belle.
And Ruben Sierra.
And Jeff Bagwell.
And the 1993 Phillies.
And who knows who else? Agree with you that Thomas is the most likely non-user among the era’s power hitters.
Thomas is a slam dunk first ballot HOF’er.
On a side note… I am ridiculously over the PED debate. Baseball is basically ruined in one way or another for a large segment of the audience. Its kind of like track and field now where everybody assumes everybody is on designer drugs and nothing that happened after 1990 has any validity. Never mind that players were using amphetamines in the 60′s and who knows what else.
Anybody that thinks that anything prior to 1990 was done 100% cleanly is delusional. In any line of work some people will find less than ethical ways to out perform some other people. Baseball was not golden prior to the steroid age. Its really a difference in journalism more than anything else.
The whole steroid argument is just old and tired and played out. We will never have the answers.
The true villains are not Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa. The true villain is not McNamee or Greg Williams or Kirk Radomoski.
The true villains were Don Fehr and Bud Selig and anybody else that had the power to put testing in place at any point in history. Players left unchecked will do what they need to do to make money… its American capitalism at work. If it isn’t being tracked, its not illegal.
Baseball should have had this locked up in the 70′s or before… they didn’t, I’m not going to blame the players for trying to do what was in their perceived best interests. I don’t necessarily agree with it, but its not Barry Bonds fault that we now don’t know how to properly value his performance, and honestly I don’t know that a players legacy is their main concern. I mean in the whole scheme of things, a baseball players career numbers don’t matter when all is said and done in this world. Some players, or people for that matter, don’t so much care about the perceived “right” and “wrong” of a matter, but are more concerned about their own selfish needs or desires. If we don’t have a system in place to stop it, then that’s our problem… not theirs.
Isn’t Jeff Bagwell in the Fair Play List? If Thomas is, then Bagwell has to be. The only reason anyone would be suspicious of him is because he was pretty muscle-bound. But the same goes for Thomas.
I wish you included Bagwell in this piece –he should be as much of a slam dunk as Thomas.
This is typical a typical Selig driven whitewash prop. Pick a few players who STILL have an aura around them, and have them uphold the image of baseball as the solution to restoring its integrity.
There is absolutely no evidence, NONE, that Thomas wasn’t a typical steroid user. Statements Thomas made or made not have made in the past re/ steroids are absolutely meaningless.
By standards that have been accepted to deal with the PED problem in all organized sports with an ounce of respectability, Thomas, would be adjudged to be utterly and totally guilty.
Thomas had a choice. He could have competed in a PED free environment. How, simply state that he would NOT compete against roiders. Regardless of baseball policy, steroids were illegal by federal statue.
A statement attesting to common roid usage – illegal activity, would have brought investigation, conviction, and stoppage.
There’s a concept that evidently reaches the limits of inconceivability.
It’s called
too late.
Bagwell has been linked weakly with some steroid suppliers at some point.
Thomas’ biggest gun is the fact that he was so decidedly outspoken for so long on the issue of PED’s. Point being that if somebody that is benefiting from PED’s wouldn’t be trying to get testing started. That and his typical career pattern.
And to continue my two earlier posts… I would also like to point out that Sandy Koufax WAS NOT the greatest pitcher of all time. Many people struggle with this. His career best form is viewed in the most positive light and while absolutely jaw dropping, was not actually better than Randy Johnson or Lefty Grove at their best.
I think that the “steroid” era should be looked at the same way the numbers of the deadball era, the 30′s and the 60′s are looked at. You can’t compare those era’s side by side by comparing batting averages, home run totals and ERA’s. The playing conditions were inherently different, from the players that were playing to the dimensions of the parks to the playing equipment to the philosophy of player development and training.
It really isn’t that difficult. Bonds hitting 762 home runs doesn’t make Hank Aaron a worse home run hitter the same way Aaron didn’t make Ruth less of one. Its all about context.
So many people don’t get that. Look at hockey for another reference… try to compare Alex Ovechkin to Wayne Gretzky or Mario Lemieux… try to compare Gretzky to Gordie Howe… it can not be done.
I found it impossible to believe that there was actually discussion as to whether Thomas was a hall of famer.
I have been watching baseball for almost 40 years, and though Pujols might be the best right handed hitter I have ever seen, The Big Hurt is a close second, and third is way in the rearview mirror.
Through age 29, neutralized: Thomas .336/.460/.613, Pujols .329/.421/.618. Pujols still retains the greatness edge because of beginning his career 1 and 1/2 years sooner, but Thomas was actually a better hitter per plate appearance than Pujols in his 20′s. (OPS+ during the shared full seasons ages 23-29: Thomas 182, Pujols 177. Runs Created (neutralized) Thomas 1102, Pujols 1064)
What a great hitter he was!
A statement attesting to common roid usage – illegal activity, would have brought investigation, conviction, and stoppage.
Yes, that’s why the FBI’s investigation of steroids distribution in the early 90s, in which the knew McGwire and dozens of other players were using, led to conviction and stoppage. Seriously, educated yourself before you go off on ill-informed rants that only serve to make you look like an idiot.
Thomas is definitely a slam-dunk HOF choice. And big kudos to the White Sox for announcing that they would retire his number, despite some of the acrimony he had with the front office in his later years there. It made me depressed as a Cubs fan that we’re going to have to wait a lot longer (if ever) to see #21 retired.
JKB is speaking truth all over this blog.
the fbi never received any help from players, sport.
Your proposition that a player had no choice but to compete against roiders due to the helpless FBI unable to enforce federal statutes when the money grubbers running baseball would have bowed to whichever way the wind was blowing.
-is plain idiocy.
educate yourself pal
Thomas’ frequent statements against PEDs are certainly good evidence that he never used them. Just as congressmen who rail against immorality are never found with hookers.
Winthorp, I would suggest that “there is no evidence that someone didn’t do something” as a basis for any sort of argument is plain idiocy.
There is no evidence that you are not Bud Selig. QED.
Pedro? He would not be on my clean list. Not saying he did do steroids, but I have no reason to elevate him to the Ken Griffey and Frank Thomas beyond-any-doubt category.
Frank Thomas and Barry Bonds were the two greatest hitters I ever saw. Both should enter the Hall of Fame as soon as they are eligible. Yes, one is widely considered clean, and one is widely considered to have more testosterone coursing through his body than 50 bull elephants during mating season. No matter. They both demonstrated the greatest skill at hitting a ball of their era.
The idea that “The Steroid Era” is somehow more tainted than “The Greenie Era” when all those fighter pilots like Ted Williams came back from the wars with incredible stamina and concentration is truly silly. Did everyone use speed in the 50s? No. But how can we tell who did and who did not? Which boys of summer were clean? How do we know? How will we ever know? Where’s the witch hunt there? Might it be that the media never asked those questions during that time?
A real investigation into purity, honestly conducted across all eras, is bound to disillusion. We celebrate Ted Williams and Mickey Mantle; so too should we celebrate Barry Bonds and Alex Rodriguez.
Maybe that’s an unfair comparison. A-Rod likely played with far fewer performance-enhancing substances in his body than Mantle did over the course of his career.
Yes, I am a Red Sox fan, but I believed Big Papi’s excuse .I wouldn’t put him on the definite list.
Yes, Thomas, even if he did nothing wrong himself, should have forfeited millions of dollars playing baseball professionally on the principle that others were breaking the law, despite the fact that the FBI didn’t care about individual users and baseball’s leadership was willfully ignoring the issue. Who’s the idiot, again?
Not for nothing, but A-Rod definitely copped to more steroid use than he had been caught for. They had evidence that he used in 2003. Then he admitted to using in 2001-2003. How is that him admitting to only the years we have evidence of?
It seems that usually after there is such a strong assertion that a ballplayer did not use steroids, someone leaks that person’s name as being on THE list confiscated by the FBI. So far, no hint of anything improper…
[...] Joe Posnanski » Blog Archive » Frank Thomas Share and [...]
[...] Shared Frank Thomas. [...]
Ken Griffey Jr. is one of the very few to be selected for the “Cleany Clean Clean” list, huh?
A guy with Griffey’s injury record since 2000? A guy who absorbed the “clubhouse culture” since he was an infant? A guy with a number of Seattle teammates who’d been confirmed or widely rumored to have used PEDs? A guy whose purported “1998 offseason steroid discussion” with Barry Bonds has been cited as compelling anecdotal evidence of Bonds’ assumed usage… yet magically, reflects on nobody else in the room?
That’s not a solid case, and no one should point fingers based on it. But the idea that Griffey is a standout candidate for PED-free play is ridiculous.
Fun fact: Thomas, who was compared to Ted Williams early in his career, ended up tied with Williams on the career home run list (521, with Willie McCovey too). There’s something poetic about that.
What tha – How is Thomas forfeiting anything. Even if Thomas did use, the FBI would have gone after the suppliers, not the users. If he wasn’t using, then he stood to gain money, due to the fact that his stats would compare better.
What definitely would have happened though would hae been a well-publicized prosecution connecting drugs with baseball and an automatic reflexive action to immediately cut all ties with drugs to protect the public relations intensive investment that is mlb baseball.
you started this idiocy argument rather than just laying out your counter argument or rebuttal.
but think the question’s been answered.
If you believe Randy Johnson played clean (I do), then he is the greatest left hander in MLB history. Not only for his total numbers, but because 1) his best years equal Koufax’s best years; and 2) he did it on a mound six inches lower, facing PED-taking hitters who would have stood no chance against him without the extra help, and in a small-park, juiced ball era designed to increase scoring.
Put The Big Unit in the mid-1960s and it would have been frightening.
I thought it was common knowledge that a trainer came to Tom Kelly with syrenges he found in the locker room, and that TK told him to throw them away and not say anything. I’ve heard that story so many times on the radio here, I just assumed it was true. So, maybe the people telling the story are wrong, or the Twins aren’t any more/less pure than any other team. As for Frank Thomas, we can’t know anything about his use or not, but we can certainly draw conclusions based on his behavior and, I’d argue, his decline. Either way, great, great, great hitter that should be in the Hall (if you care about that for some reason).
Let’s see, Thomas first started publicly advocating Steriod testing in 1995. A full 7 years before any such policy was implemented. Seems to me he was talking about it and it took a long time for anything to be done about it.
I am old…….The five best right handed hitters of my lifetime were Thomas, Pujols, Martinez, Dick Allen, A-rod…….in that order……Thomas is ahead of Pujols NOW only because of longevity ……pujols will clearly pass thomas if he has even 2 more average Pujols years…..which he likely will.
What IS clean, for heaven’s sake? Ballplayers break the game’s rules to gain advantage over other players. Such behavior is applauded, generally. The “phantom” play at second base, catchers blocking the plate without the ball, trying to convince the umpire you’ve caught a ball that actually hit the ground first–all illegal cheating. Norm Cash admitted corking his bat during the 1961 season (I still wonder if he really did or if he was just trying to get people to stop asking him why he couldn’t hit .361 again). George Brett used excessive pine tar in outright DEFIANCE of the rules book. Either we approve of cheating or we don’t. Why pick on dopers? Players have taken various pills and potions to improve their performance forever, not just since 1990. Coca Cola used to be MARKETED as a performance enhancing AND tasty beverage. And directly to children as well.
Mike in MN does not applaud any cheating. I don’t like it at all, not in any of its forms. I don’t like the phantom play, I don’t like corked bats, or excessive pine tar, or PEDs. I don’t like it when a player tries to convince an ump he caught it when he didn’t.*
*I’m not suggesting a player ask an ump to overturn a bad call in his favor, as that is “part of the game”. But, trying to convince an ump you made a play when you didn’t is different.
Cheating is cheating, and it makes the game (any game) a different game – same way I feel about “earned” strike zones for certain pitchers and hitters. Have everyone play by the same rules, then we have a fair contest.
Jose Canseco needs to be on top of the “We know (or strongly suspect) these players used” lists
For HOF arguments, we probably just need to treat evidences of steroid use as just additional stats to consider in the evaluation. The stats are spotty, but at least there is some data out there (Mitchell report, failing a drug test, etc.) that gives us something, rather than nothing, to go on. If there is nothing (as in the case of Thomas), then that should be taken into consideration.
Big Frank did testify during the infamous congressional hearing in 2005, though he was allowed to do so via either sattelite or recorded message, and I believe it was do to the fact that he was recovering from surgery, and was advised by his doctor not to fly. I often wonder what his legacy would be if he ended up in the famous picture raising his right hand standing next to Big Mac, Canseco and Palmeroid.
Just something to ponder…
Chipper Jones for the fairplay list, behind only Maddux, and ahead of Glavine and Smoltz–the Braves were clean as a whistle, except when Sheffield patrolled right. Unfortunately, playoff sphincter-tightening can’t be cured by ‘roid use, so Gary did little in October…
Given that we know Hall of Famer Pud Galvin used steroids back in 1890, unfortunately we cannot assume anybody since as definitively clean. Maybe the players who played in the National Association, but not anybody who ever played in other major leagues.
Re Frank, obviously he’s a Hall of Fame hitter. But I also believe that he was one of the worst defensive first basemen of all time. I’d vote for him, but I think his poor defense is a reasonable argument against his candidacy being a slam dunk.
I’m not so sure about Pedro. I played a year of minor league baseball with the Red Sox, and there was a lot of talk among the Dominican guys on the team about Pedro, Manny and David Ortiz using. Plus, he was 5’10″, 175lb and threw 98+. Not saying for sure that he used, but it’s definitely not a slam dunk that he didn’t.
I’ve been to the DR … outside the major cities, third-world conditions. Kids there play baseball all day long and would do ANYTHING to get to the states. Also there are “pharmacies” where you can pretty get any steroid/PED you need. If a kid is slated to be a (large) family’s breadwinner and has the pressure to succeed … why the heck wouldn’t he use any tools necessary to get ahead? That’s the thing. Pedro may or may not have used in MLB, but he most definitely used something to GET THERE.
No Fred McGriff? He seems a poster boy for the “presumed clean and overshadowed by cheaters” part of any list here.
[...] Posnanski takes a step back and points out how freaking good freshly-retired Frank Thomas was in his prime. I still remember getting his rookie card – which featured a picture of him at Auburn – [...]
In 1991, Frank Thomas hit .318/.453/.553 (180 OPS+), with 32 HR. I distinctly remember this season because of the .453 OBP. Back in those days, nobody hit 30 HR and had .450 OBPs. OBPs that high were reserved for slap hitters like Tony Gwynn or Wade Boggs (although I notice now that Jack Clark had a .459 OBP in 1987). Only a handful of players reached .450 OBPs in the previous 20 years. After 1991, Barry Bonds starting putting up extremely high OBPs, but Frank Thomas really was striking the first couple years he did it.
Of course, today a .453 OBP doesn’t make you say, “Wow!” but it sure did when Frank Thomas first did it.
Craig Biggio for the fairplay list anyone? Criminally overshadowed as usual.
Two thoughts:
Outlier seasons often occur during expansion. In the 90′s the number of teams went from 26 to 30. That’s a lot of AAA pitchers in the bigs in a short period of time…
And clean vs dirty lists… well the players and owners allowed PEDS to flourish so shouldn’t the penalty be that we have to take ALL the stats with a grain of salt. In fifty years people will look back at this era like we do previous baseball eras: the dead-ball era, the high average 30′s, pitchers dominate the 60′s., and now the expansion/steroid era of 90/00′s
Ethan/60 – How in the hell can ANYBODY think Pujols is a “Fair Play” guy? He should be #1 on the list of suspected guys.
There’s already been plenty of smoke surrounding him, he’s got the PED body. It’s really only a matter of time before more comes out.
#109 – Ah, my favorite argument, the “moral equivalent” argument.
“What IS clean, for heaven’s sake? Ballplayers break the game’s rules to gain advantage over other players. Such behavior is applauded, generally. The “phantom” play at second base, catchers blocking the plate without the ball, trying to convince the umpire you’ve caught a ball that actually hit the ground first–all illegal cheating.”
Everything you mentioned here can be dealt with on the field by the umpires. And no, this sort of thing isn’t generally applauded. Was A-Rod “applauded” when he slapped the ball away from the attempted tag in the 2004 ALCS? Or when he yelled “Mine!” during an infield fly two seasons ago (IIRC)? He was criticized, and rightly so. Who, besides a few rabid Yankee fans, would applaud that kind of thing? That’s where the term “bush league” came from.
“Norm Cash admitted corking his bat during the 1961 season (I still wonder if he really did or if he was just trying to get people to stop asking him why he couldn’t hit .361 again). George Brett used excessive pine tar in outright DEFIANCE of the rules book. Either we approve of cheating or we don’t. Why pick on dopers?”
By your logic, we should punish every sort of transgression the same way. Rape is just as bad as littering – it’s all criminal! Either we approve of crime or we don’t. Why pick on rapists?
I’m surprised nobody has mentioned what may be the first outlier season, and by a HoFer no less.
Cap Anson hit a total of 5 home runs in his first 13 seasons and then in 1884 he blasts 21. Come on Cap, you ain’t fooling us.
Put Brett Boone on the “almost probably used” list.
play fair list and possibly heading for the hall of fame…second baseman Jeff Kent.
“He pretty famously did not work out much (or, often, at all) and his body type stayed more or less the same — thin, wiry strong, he LOOKED like ballplayers from earlier eras.”
While I concur that Griffey did not put much effort into taking care of his body (and hence probably was not a PED user), I disagree about his body staying the same throughout his career. Griffey certainly was thin but strong early in his career (much like Barry Bonds was), but during the latter stages of his career Griffey gained a great deal of weight, and not in the form of muscle. It got to the point where Griffey was just plain fat during the last 5+ years.
Looks like someone took you to task, Joe:
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/steroids-and-our-assumptions-about-them/
Pedro is as “clean” as Roger Clemens is clean. Get him off your fair play list, or was that meant as a joke?
I see in Buster Olney’s column on Tuesday that many in baseball would disagree with at least one player on Joe’s list. He didn’t name him, but it’s obvious looking at the name that he’s talking about Pedro.
If Frank Thomas isn’t a no-doubt, first ballot HOFer, then something is really wrong. The man maintained a 182 OPS+ over his first 8 seasons, comprising more than 4500 plate appearances. Not even Pujols has done that. To put it in context, even the juiced McGwire didn’t do it (181 in 4505 PAs from ’92 to ’01).
Only three other hitters in the last 60 years have compiled a 182 OPS+ over such an extended period: Williams, Mantle and Bonds. And Bonds plainly cheated to do it.
He may not have been Williams or Mantle, but the Big Hurt was the closest thing to it in his era, an unmatched combination of power and stratospherically high on-base percentages.
There really shouldn’t be any debate.
@130 I took Olney’s comment to mean he thought there was such disagreement in general over who used and who didn’t that everyone would find at least one player was listed clean or dirty who should have been put on the opposite list. I didn’t read that he was pointing at one player specifically.
Yeah, he should be unanimous, because there’s no case against him.
But you know some morons will say “OMG DA FIRST BALLOT IZ 4 DA BEST N I DUN THINK THOMAS IZ DA BEST!”. Maybe it’ll be like the shitstorm that followed Robby Alomar’s Year 1 miss.
Or maybe we’ll just replace the BBWAA with a computer cyborg that elects based on data and objectivity. We’d probably have a far better Hall of Fame.
I understand what you’re trying to do with the list Joe, but not everyone who tested or admitted to using did so with steroids. Pettite used HGH for example. It hasn’t been revealed what Ortiz tested for.
Minor point, but if the aim is accuracy, not all of the users on your list actually used steroids as you indicated.
Mark Grace seems to me like he should be on the “clean” list–I mean, unless cigarettes and bimbos are “performance-enhancing.”
Sorry Red Sox fans, but Pedro probably used PED.
My list of clean players:
1. Maddux
2. F. Thomas
3. Griffey
4. Glavine
5. Jeter
I wish at least Maddux gets 100% in HOF election (yes, I know it’s like dreaming).
And Frank Thomas is undoubtedly is a first ballot Hall of Famer.
OK, #124 (and 109, and all):
For years, no one has been able to satisfactorily answer this question.
Lasix alters your body and results in enhanced performance. It changes your very physical being by introducing something to your body. (And it does NOT treat an injury; in fact, it addresses something that naturally happens in the aging process for most everyone, kinda like … well, you know.)
So: How is this different from taking shots or pills that improves one’s play? How is this not a PEP (performance enhacing procedure)? In fact, Lasix has become even more like steroids in recent years, as evidence surfaces that it might have deleterious side effects.
Mike Piazza–definitely a juicer. Well known around the league.
@114: “The Braves were clean as a whistle.”
WHAT????????
Andruw Jones, Julio Franco, Russ Ortiz, Mike Hampton, Marcus Giles, Andres Galarraga, David Justice, John Rocker, that guy was a roid freak if I’ve ever seen one…
Someone needs to pull their head out of the sand.
Bill C. @42 is precisely right in that steroid use for a pitcher can easily be very different for a hitter. A pitcher, especially an injury prone pitcher like Randy Johnson (or Pedro Martinez) can use steroids to help the body recover quickly from the violently destructive act of throwing a baseball 100 times a game, something our bodies were not evolved to do. They don’t need to lift weights or become stronger. Simply healing faster is enough.
That said, there’s also plenty of examples of pitchers like Randy Johnson before steroids were a possibility. The classic two examples would be Sandy Koufas and Nolan Ryan. Both pitchers didn’t really achieve greatness as a pitcher until they’d thrown a LOT of innings and learned to control their massive talents. Both had great stuff, lots of strikeouts, and also great wildness, lots of walks, early in their career. Randy Johnson was the same. So I think it’s just as likely that there’s a type of high talent high ceiling pitcher who, if he stays healthy long enough to learn control, will eventually have a really long career, as it is that Randy Johnson was a steroid user.
Hitters, on the other hand, need to lift weights to benefit from steroids. A real deep in the count guy might average 20 pitches a game, and probably isn’t swinging more than ten times. So there’s far less muscle breakdown for hitters to benefit from steroids. Plus the rules on bat length and the laws of physics prevent a healthy hitter from hitting better without building up bigger muscles to swing the bat faster. Bigger muscles tend to be obvious.
I prefer to believe that Randy Johnson is clean. Koufax himself attributed his arthritic elbow to a basketball injury (IIRC). If Koufax could have pitched pain free, would anyone suspect him of using steroids? Johnson’s career took a similar arc, but he didn’t have the bad elbow to begin with, and he came up in an era of better medicine. I also believe Pedro was clean, because he missed a lot of games if he was using. Hey, it helps me sleep at night.
Maddux, on the other hand, is so smart he could have been using a dozen different designer drugs and we’d never suspect him. You always have to keep your eyes open around a guy nicknamed “The Professor”. That’s the kind of guy who knows how not to get caught!
@140 I think it’s irresponsible to think Maddux could have used PED just because he’s intelligent. Seems to me your argument weakens just to mention that. If you want to defend Randy Johnson, it’s OK, but you shouldn’t try to help R. Johnson with a rumor against a pitcher whose only “fault” so far is being named “the professor”.
[...] Joe Posnanski » Blog Archive » Frank ThomasFrank Thomas is probably the most prominent non-steroid user in baseball history. Of course, we can’t know the secret lives of bees or people. But every indication is that Frank Thomas avoided steroids. He was so public about his … Read more [...]
Hooray! Just what baseball needs. Cherry picking AND witch hunting. Seriously, as noble as this fair play list is in spirit, it’s really one of things thats keeping us from accepting the past. We will never know for sure who did and who didn’t and speculating without proof is irresponsible.
[...] favorite Joe Posnanski writes a very compelling piece on why Frank Thomas is a no-questions-asked first ballot Hall of Famer. His reaction to Tiger [...]
[...] Joe Posnanski » Blog Archive » Frank ThomasFrank Thomas is probably the most prominent non-steroid user in baseball history. Of course, we can’t know the secret lives of bees or people. But every indication is that Frank Thomas avoided steroids. He was so public about his … Read more [...]
[...] Joe Posnanski » Blog Archive » Frank Thomas [...]