Devotion And Halls of Fame
Posted: February 4th, 2010 | Filed under: Other Sports, Pop Culture | 89 Comments »
As this thing begins and winds around and rambles … you will wonder how we’re going to get to Halls of Fame. But we will get there eventually. Believe me, I’m not recommending you take the journey.
So, here’s something you definitely did not need to know about me: I like to eat while I’m reading. I always struggle for something to say when people ask me to name a hobby. I don’t golf. I don’t ski. I don’t fish. I don’t hunt. I don’t watch hardly any television … it was flat frightening when I was telling a friend the other day all the shows I have never watched, not even a single episode:
– CSI. Any of them.
– Law and Order. Any of them.
– Mad Men.
– Entourage.
– Lost
– Survivor.
– Any other reality show except Top Chef, which I watched for one season.
– NCIS (is this different from CSI?)
– Bones, The Mentalist, House, Two and a Half Men, The Big Bang Theory, Desperate Housewives … I’m just going down the list of top-rated shows.
I do not say this with any sense of pride, any sense of “I would not waste time watching television.” Quite the opposite. I LOVE television. I’m a child of television. I have little doubt that if I started watching many of these shows, I would get hooked on them. But I don’t. It’s not a choice, exactly. It’s just … I work. I hang out with family. This seems to take up my days.
But, I was thinking today: I actually do have a hobby, a really weird hobby. I like to go out to lunch and read. That’s my deal. I was thinking about this today because I was going to lunch, and because of another plane screwup — I have probably left 25 books and various important electronic devices on planes through the years — I was without a book to read. And I was sort of frantic … I really wanted a book to read with lunch. I don’t have a car here in South Florida as I wait for the Super Bowl, so I just walked around the area, walked and walked, looking for a bookstore or something resembling a bookstore or a place that might sell books.
All I found was a Family Dollar. I went in there and, sure enough, there was a pile of books on the table in front. Unfortunately, most of these books had titles like “The Democrats’ (Not So) Secret Hope That America Gets Destroyed” and “Republicans Want You To Starve.”*
*There was a short time when I would get a kick out of angry political books. I came up with a little scoring system — a “Sincerity Scale” — a 10-to-1 scoring system based on how much I thought the person writing the book believed what he/she was writing.
A 10, of course, meant that the author believed every word, thoroughly, deeply, and had written the book with no expectation of making money on it but only to tell these truths that were buried deep within. Thomas Paine’s “Common Sense” was probably a 10. Martin Luther King’s Letter From a Birmingham Jail, probably a 10.
A 1, of course, meant that the author didn’t believe anything he/she was writing — didn’t even care about what he/she was writing — and was only doing it to cash in on the opportunity to sell a bunch of books to people who were angry at the left or angry at the right.
In all my modern reading, I think the highest I ever scored a book was a 6. There were more than a few “authors” who scored 1s in my scoring system. But, hey, I suppose that’s natural. Hey, you can play too — what do you think about Bill O’Reilly, Glenn Beck, Keith Olbermann, Michael Moore, Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, etc? Forget whether you like them or not, agree with them or not, where do they rank on your sincerity scale?
So, I was stuck for a book … and then I saw “Between You and Me” by Mike Wallace. Now, I’ve always liked Mike Wallace. I liked the way Christopher Plummer played him in “The Insider” — though I guess Wallace really didn’t like the movie. I liked the way his subjects were always scared of him. I liked how much he seemed to ENJOY making people uncomfortable and asking tough questions. There’s an amazing exchange in the book that he had with Lyndon Johnson in 1971, and because it’s Mike Wallace I believe it. He told Johnson that he had been a fervent admirer of his going back to his time in the Senate. He especially appreciated how Johnson had done more to advance the cause of Civil Rights than any President since Lincoln.
“But then,” he said, “everything turned sour, Mr. President, and you know why?”
“Why?” LBJ demanded.
“Because you let that war get out of hand. Vietnam (bleeped) you, Mr. President. And so, I’m afraid, you (bleeped) the country. And you’ve got to talk about that.”
You may agree with Wallace, you may disagree, you may angrily disagree, but the point is that Wallace as a journalist would not back down. He demanded confrontation. He believed that the only way to truth was confrontation. And, frankly, he got joy out of confrontation. It’s an uncommon skill.
So, as you can tell, I picked up the book* and read over lunch. My hobby.
*The book cost me a dollar. Exactly a dollar. I don’t think that I’ve ever actually gone into a Family Dollar store before — there was never one close by — so now I wonder if everything in there was a dollar, like at “The Dollar Tree.” I brought the book up, the cashier told me it was $1.06. I gave her two dollars, and she gave one back and said, “Oh, never mind, my register is 6 cents over so just keep that.” Exactly a dollar! At Family Dollar!
OK, it only took me 905 words to explain why I was reading Mike Wallace’s book over lunch. And we get to the point: I’m reading about how Wallace and John Kennedy went to the same school in Brookline, Mass., at the same time. The Edward Devotion School. Wallace says people assume that’s a Catholic school but, well, I’ll let him pick up …
“(This) reveals how little they know about Brookline’s glorious history. Edward Devotion was an early hero of the American Revolution. One the night Paul Revere made his legendary ride through Boston and neighboring towns, his friend and fellow patriot, Devotion, mounted his horse and went on a similar gallop to sound the alarm that the British were coming. The course he followed took him through Brookline. I suppose the main reason why Devotion’s ride of warning has been so overshadowed is because many years later, when Longfellow sat down to write his famous ballad, Revere happened to be the horseman he chose to immortalize.”
OK, two things.
One, I love stuff like this. Love it. I love to hear the stories about the underrated people of history. And this is where the sports twist comes in: I feel certain that this is a big reason why I’m so into Halls of Fame. The Halls help define the reality of sports. It’s like this: I believe Dwight Evans was a better player than Jim Rice. I believe Tim Raines was a better player than Andre Dawson. I believe Dan Quisenberry was a better pitcher than Bruce Sutter. I believe Otis Taylor was a better receiver than Charlie Joiner. I believe Terrell Davis was a better running back than, well, better than a dozen Hall of Fame running backs at least.
But that’s just my opinion. And my opinion is just my opinion. These Halls of Fame DEFINE opinion. They CRYSTALIZE opinion. They make a record of opion. Rice is in, Evans out. Dawson is in, Raines has yet to capture the minds and hearts of the voters. Sutter is in, Quiz is out. Joiner is in, Otis is out. Getting into the Hall of Fame is a little bit like Longfellow writing about you: “Listen my children and you shall hear/Of the midnight ride of Paul Revere.” You have a chance to stay famous for a long time.
Now, I should say, it isn’t like everyone in the Baseball and Football and Basketball Halls of Fame becomes famous or immortal. Not even close. The other night over dinner, someone was talking about how I should write a post taking five people out of the Baseball Hall of Fame. I said, hell, I could take FIFTY people out of the Hall of Fame, and 98.74 percent of baseball fans would not even notice. There are a lot of people in there you’ve never heard of.
No, it’s more like this: Halls of Fame create this record. People who are baseball fans may know that Lou Whitaker and Ryne Sandberg were awfully similar as baseball players. But Sandberg is in. So he will appear in the news more often. People who go to the museum will see his plaque. Cubs fans will have tribute days to him. As time goes on, and time goes on, and time goes on, the likelihood of Ryne Sandberg being remembered as an all-time great is pretty good. Meanwhile, Whitaker is not in. And the likelihood of Whitaker being remember as an all-time great … not as good. Sandberg is Revere. Whitaker is Devotion.
So, it was reading Mike Wallace’s book that I got for a dollar that got my thinking one of the reasons I like taking up Hall of Fame causes and pushing against players I think are overrated and think so much about this stuff. It’s about trying to get history right.
And that, unfortunately, leads me to the second point …
… apparently the whole Mike Wallace Edward Devotion story is, as my father used to say, “a bunch of baloney.” It appears to be completely untrue. The school was built on land donated by Edward Devotion, a prime citizen of Brookline who died 30 years before the Revolutionary War and the ride of Paul Revere. The school was NAMED for his grandfather, the elder Edward Devotion, who settled in Brookline (or as it was known then, “Muddy River”) in 1645 and was, according to the Brookline Historical Society, a collector of taxes and preserver of the peace.
In fact, I could not find any reference other than Wallace’s to an Edward Devotion who made a midnight ride on the same night as Paul Revere. And I wanted to find another reference … I loved this story which is why I looked into it in the first place. But the Devotion as Midnight Rider tale is not even mentioned in relation to Edward Devotion House OR the Edward Devotion School — you would think they would mention it if it was even slightly true.
How does this happen? The only thing I can figure is this: William Dawes — who DID ride the same night as Revere and has mostly been forgotten by history — rode through Brookline and perhaps went by the Edward Devotion House. Maybe Mike got confused by this. Or maybe it is true and I just can’t find any record of it anywhere. Or maybe an Edward Devotion teacher taught him this story back in the fourth grade, and he never forgot it. I like to think of it this way. I remember being taught at that age that if you step over someone lying down you will stunt their growth and I still believe it.
As another aside to the aside to this whole post, which is really an aside, I will say that in searching vainly for the Edward Devotion of Mike Wallace’s memory, I did come across the story of Israel Bissell. On April 19, 1775, Bissell apparently rode 345 miles — from Watertown, Mass to Philadelphia — shouting “To arms! To arms! The war has begun!” This is much, much, much more impressive than Revere’s ride or Dawes’ ride and probably much more significant too. But, as others have pointed out, not much rhymes with Bissell. And there’s really only so much you can do with whistle, thistle, dismissal and bristle. And so he too has found himself lost in history’s Hall of Very Good.
So what’s the point of any of this? There is no point. Why does everything need a point?
But since you made it down this far, here are the Pro Football Hall of Fame finalists I would vote for if I had a vote:
– Jerry Rice. Of course.
– Emmitt Smith. Of course.
– Cris Carter. Damn good receiver.
– Richard Dent. There’s only one Hall of Famer on that 1985 Bears defense? (Reader update: There are actually two already in — Mike Singletary and Dan Hampton).
– Dermontti Dawson. Six time first-team All-Pro and there are not enough offensive linemen in the Hall of Fame.
– Shannon Sharpe. Great receiving tight-end. And — not that this is important — but he gave me numerous great columns through the years.
– Tim Brown. You know what: I never appreciated how good Brown was. He had 1,000 yards receiving for nine consecutive seasons. I understand football statistics — especially receiving statistics — are not always telling. But there’s only one other guy in NFL history who had 1,000-yards receiving nine straight seasons. Jerry Rice.
– Paul Tagliabue. I don’t know if commissioners or owners SHOULD go into the Hall of Fame. But they do and Tagliabue is almost certainly one of the 10 most important people in NFL history.
How many am I allowed to vote for? Probably not even the eight I already have voted for. Here are the others on the ballot, many of them deserving as well in my opinion:
– Don Coryell
– Roger Craig
– Russ Grimm
– Charles Haley
– Rickey Jackson
– Cortez Kennedy
– Dick LeBeau
– Floyd Little
– John Randle
– Andre Reed
I’m definitely in favor of a BIG Pro Football Hall of Fame.
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Circle me, Harry Reasoner (did I do that right?)
Anyway, I’ve noticed that, these days, when I’m told a fact, I try to verify it at least a little, no matter who tells me, but when I was a kid, of course, I believed anything a teacher or parent told me without bothering to verify. And the funny thing, of course, is that I’ll unthinkingly accept all those things I was told as a kid, even though I would look for independent verification if I was told them for the first time nowadays.
That’s my way of saying I like the “Mike Wallace learned it in 4th grade” theory
I watch very few of those TV shows.
If you’re going to take one up, watch Psych on USA Network, it’s awesome.
Nice post. I get frustrated too knowing that some deserving athletes won’t be remembered the way they should.
Re: ‘85 Bears
Mike Singletary and Dan Hampton are in.
As for Bissell, missile rhymes with it but maybe it was too early to use that word.
Your Mike Wallace story revelation makes me hear in my head “but that’s not what WE found” that he seemed to use a lot during investigations on 60 Minutes.
I was relieved to see that there was no Devotion, because I was thinking, “Who is this guy, and why have I never heard of him?” You had my heart pounding.
Rating football players outside the skill positions is tough, very tough.
Look, in baseball, the stats usually do tell us the whole story, or most of it. If I read that Roy Hobbs batted .345 with 49 homers, 150 RBIs, and an OBP of .467, I can support him for MVP with a clear conscience, even if I never saw him play.
But in football? Well, to use one example, I’ve often heard that John Hannah was the greatest offensive lineman of all time. And maybe he was! But I only saw him play 3 or 4 times in his career, and he never did anything noteworthy in any of those games. There are very, very few stats available for rating an offensive lineman. Bottom line: I have no idea how good John Hannah was. I have no idea how good Dwight Stephenson was. I’m not sure how good Anthony Munoz was.
Unless you’ve spent hours watching film for months, how can you possibly judge those guys?
Joe…..I would recommend catching a couple of episodes of “The Big Bang Theory”…pretty darn funny. Also get “The Wire” DVD’s if you haven’t seen that HBO series. Better than The Sopranos I think.
The Wire is at least twice as good as any show that has ever been on TV.
Another underrated guy you might be interested in, in a totally different field is Albert Russell Wallace–the Israel Bissell of Biology. He’s largely forgotten now.
Years after Charles Darwin visited the Galapagos Islands and had his revelation about natural selection, Wallace came up with essentially the same theory. But unlike Darwin, Wallace submitted his theory for publication.
Unfortunately for Wallace, one of his peer reviewers was a friend of Darwin’s, and he recognized Wallace’s paper as the same theory that Darwin had come up with, but had yet to publish. He notified Darwin and the first paper on the theory of evolution by natural selection was a joint paper by Darwin & Wallace.
Of course, by today’s standards of scientific publishing, what happened to Wallace would be considered highly unethical. Had the same thing happened today, Wallace would get the credit, not Darwin.
But of course, Wallace had his idea in another time. And Darwin is one of the most famous men of all time. Wallace is not completely forgotten, but he’s not known to many.
First of all, I am going to attempt to write a song, “the Real Long Ride of Israel Bissell”. If I pull it off, it will *not* be the most improbable rhyme scheme I have ever conquered; Tom Lehrer records mentored me well. The world is warned.
For your sincerity contest, the highest rating I’d have to give would be Michael Moore, a 7 or 8. Can’t be a 10, because some of the big complaints about his movie-making ethics and his trapping people are legit (although fewer and fewer as time goes by, which is a good sign). But from everything I hear, he’s an absolute joy to work for (very much unlike Olbermann or O’Reilly), and that counts a lot for me. He was extremely unlikely to get rich making the documentaries he does; his political stances are against the interests of the corporations he depends on; and since he did get rich, he’s continued to call for much higher taxes on rich people like himself. A class act.
Huckabee seems sincere. Ignorant, but sincere. Letting murderers go at the requests of preachers he trusts is Christian in its inconvenient mercy, and raising taxes (as a Republican in the south!) to not throw poor people onto the street was too.
Only other person on the list I’d be inclined to vouch for is Ed Schulz, whom I’ve never watched. From what I’m told, though, he keeps devoting air-time to polite, earnest discussions of important issues, which is why his ratings suck.
It’s AMAZING that Cris Carter isn’t in already, in what I believe is his third year on the ballot. He retired as the second best at everything in his position in history, in a sport whose Hall of Fame lets just about *everybody* in, and he has to wait? Makes no sense to me at all.
“I don’t watch hardly any television”.
This is why Joe may be the best writer of all time. Any of my english teachers would have hung me upside down by my toenails for a phrase like this. You HAVE TO be the best to get away with it.
Definitely not complaining…I love it!
Roger Craig isn’t in the Hall of Fame? Good grief.
I don’t think it’s even debatable now with modern measurements that DW. Evans was better than Rice, that Raines was better than Dawson, that Quisenberrry was at least as good as Sutter or that Whitaker is one of the top 10-15 second basemen of all time.
The problem is Evans, Quis and Whitaker aren’t even on a ballot anymore!!!
I’m glad two people have already mentioned it, but if you haven’t seen “The Wire,” stop what you’re doing right now and put it at the top of your netflix queue or go rent it from Blockbuster or something (ok, fine, you can wait till the Super Bowl is over. THEN go get it). You will not regret it.
To paraphrase it’s networks motto: “It’s not TV, It’s Art” – at the very least it’s a video novel. High school English classes should have kids watch it and discuss it as though it were Hemingway or Steinbeck or Shakespeare. It’s that good, and more importantly, that important.
I was so ready to call out Devotion, instead of Dawes and Prescott making the rides. And then I read the rest of the article.
I voted on your poll, and it’s not a surprise to me that Jon Stewart’s at the top. Because he gets to say whatever he wants to while making big winky faces at the camera. So he can be completely sincere in his opinion, and sometimes comes out and doesn’t even make jokes about it, but then can go back behind the facade of making fart jokes instead of skewering politicians. I think he’s seen as sincere because his only political agenda is humor.
If I remember correctly there was a poll and people who were liberal saw Colbert as faking conservatism, and conservatives seeing him as really meaning it. It’s the kind of audience both of them draw.
If you need to rhyme with Bissell you need to involve Danny Kaye. Kaye was a great song and dance guy and for a while an owner of a major league team.
Others have mentioned the problem with the football Hall of Fame as compared to baseball’s. Whether he bats leadoff, after the pitcher or somewhere in between, all baseball players get there turn at bat. Football players are dependent on position and coaching decisions for their opportunities. Because of the lack of statistical evidence for many players and an understanding that it is a much more subjective sport, I’m a big advocate for a large football Hall of Fame while being in favor of baseball continuing to have “tighter” standards.
I don’t like the football hall of fame.
Football players, for the most part, don’t play long enough for me to get interested in their hall of fame. There are just too damn many great football players for me to try and keep track of all of them.
In just the Superbowl era there are probably as many hall of fame worthy players as there were in the whole history of baseball. You play six or eight really great years in football and you can be in the hall of fame. Too many Sandy Koufaxes in football.
And the game changes too damn much to compare players across eras. Home runs in baseball go up and people act like it’s the end of the world. Touchdown passes, and quarterback ratings, and completion percentages skyrocket and no one seems to notice. Why even both to keep track?
And the gatherings of all the old football players are miserable events because they’ve all been physically destroyed by the game of football. Depressing.
Joe,
Check out BigLots as well. They have some junk but they also have some decent stuff and you won’t get ripped off.
I didn’t read over everyone else’s responses so maybe this was covered, but, and Poz you should know his, Malcolm Gladwell discussed why Revere became the legendary figure over whichever other guy. I don’t feel like searching The Tipping Point (don’t think it was Blink), but if I remember correctly, it had much to do with their roles in their communities. Due to who he knew, Revere took the course that led to his memorable ride. I think this was the argument that Gladwell made anyway.
dear joe,
i read when i eat too. i’m a reasonably sociable guy, but i’m always secretly happy when i don’t have lunch plans and i can just read while i eat. this reading used to always be newspapers or novels, but these days most of the lunchtime reading i do is catching up on your blog posts.
thanks for being a great lunch companion.
The NFL HoF is ridiculous.
It’s like a bunch of fantasy football fans picking famous guys with stats, except (in fairness to fantasy football) the guys doing the picking are supposed to have a little more sophisticated take than fantasy footballers.
So you end up with absurdities, like a HoF with 154 offensive players and 65 defensive players.
And worse, 23 modern QBs vs. 20 receivers (even though there are at least 2x as many on the field at any given time), and much worse 34 OLs. That’s basically like having more shortstops than outfielders in Cooperstown.
Or here: between just 2 positions – QB & RB, there are 72 members. So basically half of all offensive players in the HoF come from 2 of the 11 offensive positions. Which is also more than all defensive and special teams members combined.
What Canton needs to do is something like what Cooperstown did about the Negro Leaguers (I hate to use the word quota though, especially in this context). But for every skilled position inductee, they outta mandate at least 3 non-skilled positions to start reducing the demented imbalance.
I also echo the love, and must-see recommendation, for The Wire.
How does Ken Stabler not make the 25 finalists for the Hall of Fame vote? I have a hard time working up any strong feelings about Canton, but I think Stabler has gotten the shaft.
Joe should start watching “Jersey Shore”.
Just think of the great blog posts Joe could write about that show…
Ken Stabler threw 194 touchdowns and 224 INTs in his career.
Of all the shows Joe listed, the only one I’ve ever watched was “Mad Men.” I love that show, but it’s not for everyone. It’s probably too slow-paced for most people.
Otis Taylor really was a better WR than Joiner, who was good too of course. It’s not surprising that there isn’t that much interest in the football Hall of Fame. It’s actually much more surprising that there IS a lot of interest in the baseball Hall of Fame.
COME ALONG, KIDDIES
DADDY’S GONNA WHISTLE
WHILE HE TELLS YOU ALL
THE STORY ‘BOUT ISREAL BISSELL
To anyone interested in the topic, check out Robert Wuhl’s “Assume the Position” thing on HBO where he does a thing on Revere, Bissell, and Longfellow.
Following up on McKingford’s point about the position imbalance in the football hall, when I was reading your list of votes my only thought was “how the heck is he not voting for Ray Guy?” And it turns out it’s because he wasn’t even *nominated* this year. How can you not get into the Hall Of Fame when you are the best player ever at your position? Insane.
Family Dollar and Dollar General, unlike Dollar Tree, regularly do have products priced over $1. Although the $1.06 thing happens at Dollar Tree too, if you’re in a start with sales tax.
The Wire is the greatest piece of media ever produced. I know it sounds like I’m using hyperbole or being a blowhard, but it’s true.
Its scope is virtually unmatched by anything. Think about the breadth of story that the roughly 60 hours of a television affords. Then take into account fact that nary a moment on screen isn’t entirely pertinent to the series. And let us not forget that the whole series is a multi-layered, nuanced, deftly interwoven, cross-class, often Shakespearean look at the once great City of Baltimore and its having been ravaged by the drug trade while looking at the entire infrastructure that enabled its decay.
What The Wire attempts and achieves is simply impossible for any (non-television series) product of the media (and I’m including high art, here, too) to approach.
And there has not been a television series that has attempted to do what The Wire has accomplished, so we are left with The Wire.
Shelby @7: That’s not true. The Wire is absolutely positively NOT twice as good as Homicide: Life on the Street.
(Yes, you see what I did there.)
I didn’t vote in the poll because I don’t think any of those people are particularly sincere. They’re partisan commentators, not neutral observers, and they spin everything according to their agenda, different in each case.
If you want sincerity, you need to look at the small political / general interest magazines like the New Republic, the Atlantic, the New Yorker, National Review, the New Criterion, Commentary, and City Journal. Their writers don’t pull down big salaries and are actually experts in their fields. They have their political opinions, but they’re consistent, and they don’t make up lies or skip over truths. Gregg Easterbrook is an excellent example.
Click on Arts and Letters Daily and follow their links for some good solid sincerity.
Or, of course, you can read peer-reviewed nonfiction history and social studies. That’s not hard to find, from John Keegan to Niall Ferguson to David McCullough.
I would like to see the reverse — a vote on who is least sincere. My vote is for Ann Coulter,
Thoughts, in no particular order:
- Having been born in Boston and gone to school at a place that let out once a year to watch a recreation of the Freedom Trail march, I too was panicked that Edward Devotion had somehow eluded my attention. Glad that all got straightened out.
- My wife gave me the DVD box set of “The Wire” for my birthday last year. The entire series. It is the second-greatest gift she has ever given me, losing out only to my Ted Williams autographed baseball.
- Partisan plug from a KU grad and Celtics fan…Jo Jo White (no relation) has been screwed out of the basketball Hall of Fame for entirely too long.
- I second the nomination for a least sincere poll.
The best cost-to-entertainment ratio I’ve ever found at a store happened at Dollar General; for a buck, I bought a copy of Steve Martin’s “Pure Drivel.”
I honestly think he’s funnier as a psuedo-Woody Allenesque writer of short stories than he was at stand-up. And that’s saying something.
Reading at lunch isn’t a strange hobby. I think a lot of people do that. During the winter I sit inside and read Joe’s blog at lunch and when it’s nice out I go outside with a book.
Think outside the box, and this’ll
Help you find a rhyme for Bissell.
> Danny Kaye was a great song and dance guy and for a while an owner of a major league team.
Wrong. For a while he was an owner of the expansion Seattle Mariners, which were *not* a major league team at the time.
Signed,
One Who Was There & Had Season Tickets For 2 Years, 1980-81
Most of those shows are garbage anyways Joe. Mad Men is pretty excellent though. CSI, NCIS, Bones, etc are all essentially the same show.
OK, seriously, how is Jon Stewart the top vote getter? Colbert is awfully high up there too. They are comedians! They will occasionally get serious, but they will both admit that most of the time they are just out for laughs.
Hey Joe, you have most likely seen the Muddy River that was the original namesake for Brookline. It runs from Jamaica Pond along the Emerald Necklace and empties into the Fens near Fenway Park. You can see the reeds of the Muddy River from Brookline Street near the Park.
I once met a guy from Mt. Vernon, IL who was convinced that George Washington had lived there. No amount of arguing could convince him otherwise. I’ve also met several adults who thought all men have one less rib than women do. I believe that everyone, no matter how smart, has at least one crazy thing that they believe; that somehow one tiny, yet basic piece of information was misheard in 4th grade, and has yet to be corrected.
Sincerity is overrated. The ideas expressed in Mein Kampf are the sincere ideas of the author, disgusting and evil ideas, but sincere.
Of the guys listed, Michael Moore is probably the most sincere, of course, he is also the most wrongheaded of them too, so like I said, sincerity is overrated.
I too like to eat and read Joe P. Can be a problem when a great laugh hits with a full mouth. Now, if the O’s were only as good as The Wire and Homocide.
“It only took 905 words…”. I hope that you have software to count the words and that it isn’t your 2nd hobby.
Paul Tagliabue is not on the list of finalists. As other writers have reported, not only is there too little support for his candidacy, there is a block of voters who are openly hostile to the idea of him being inducted.
Throughout most of the eighties I averaged 6 flights a week, based out of KC (“owned” by Eastern Airlines at the time) and flew seated next to many celebrities and public personalities.
All but two of those recognizable names I found to be remarkably pleasant, rational, “normal” people.
One of the two was Mike Wallace who came off as a pompous, self important, discourteous (to attendent), boorishly rude human being.
No doubt that he was a great interviewer in his prime …..but at what cost to civility?
(The other overt turd was Lucille Ball who hit the attendant button from the second row 14 times in a two and a half hour flight. She was never separated from the attendant by more than 12 feet….She was an embarrassment to our species)
Sorry — I thought it was the seat-adjustment button.
The person I’d have voted for, had he been on the list: Bill Moyers. (As it was I voted for Maddow.)
I think the argument against Otis Taylor is the same one that I use against Davey Concepcion and L.C. Greenwood. At some point, I find it impossible to believe that so many HOF players happened to play on one team.
The Pittsburgh Steelers of the 70s have almost half their starters in the HOF, if Greenwood was elected they would have half the starters in the HOF. I know they were good, but that good??
The Cinnicinnati Reds of the 70s have their entire infield in the HOF except Concepcion (or, rather, would have the entire infield in but for one player’s exclusion for other reasons). If he were elected, they would have 5 HOF worthy players in their starting lineup. How would they have ever lost?
I love the Chiefs, but they only won 1 SB. Yet they already have Lanier, and Bell, and Buchanon and Thomas off their defense and Dawson off their offense in the HOF(plus the only HOF kicker in Stenereud), plus their owner and their coach. How come they weren’t even a playoff team in 1967 or 1970 or 1972 if they really had that many great players.
Lucy @45
ILMAO and wish that had been the case.
John Randle needs to be in the hall of fame. 137.5 sacks, 8 straight years of at least 10 sacks (9 is the record, held by White) 7 pro bowls. Elite DE numbers at the DT position.
@ #41: Adolf Hitler was *not* sincere. He and Josef Goebbels invented the foundations of modern advertising. (Literally: Goebbels was studied in advertising courses for decades.)
In particular, the Big Lie technique (better to tell a huge lie whose audacity will intimidate people into swallowing it, than a small lie that people will confidently call out) was central to his genius. Hitler and Goebbels knew what would sell, and didn’t particularly wait for facts to support them. Random example: they staged a fake attack from Poland to justify the “defensive” invasion in “response”.
You’re cracking me up #’s 45 and 44. I love stories about celebs being pills.
The Wire is better than The Shield? I watched the first season of The Wire and couldn’t get hooked.
Baseball is thick with chances for individual glory: pitcher vs batter, the great catch/throw/steal; almost every moment in a baseball game can be reduced to the success or failure of one person.
Football…well, not so much. Was Terrell Davis an all-time great running back? Perhaps, but there’s no doubt he played behind a great line with a great scheme for racking up the yards. Those Shanahan-Bronco teams put up an amazing streak of one-and-done thousand-yard rushers, which makes me think that Tom Nalen, Mark Schlereth, the line coach, and the fragility of men’s knees are as much to blame for Terrell Davis’s big seasons as whatever amazing talent we might attribute to him.
The Football Hall celebrates QBs and RBs because those guys are on an island, their brilliance isolated for easy appreciation. We know they’re standing on the shoulders of trench-hogs, but it just takes so much work to figure out where the credit lies; easier to circle the famous guy and be done with it.
Can I enter Bill Maher as a write-in vote for the poll?
Just confirming #19’s statement, reasons for Paul Revere being remembered are documented in Malcolm Gladwell’s “The Tipping Point”.
I must admit to never watching even one episode of several popular TV shows too. Somehow I’ve survived. I think having young kids like Joe is a factor. I’m now very knowledgable about animated programming…..
I think Ken Stabler isn’t near as far from being a HOF caliber QB as one might think, given the TD-Int. ratio quoted. To compare him to another Bama alum who is in the HOF:
Stabler career record as starter: 96-49-1
That Other Bama QB: 62-63-4
Stabler’s career TD-Int ratio: 194 to 222
That Other Bama QB: 173 to 220
Staber’s career QB rating: 75.3
That Other Bama QB: 65.5
Times Stabler was 1st Team All-Pro: 1
That Other Bama QB: 1
Stabler led the league in TDs thrown twice and completion % twice. That Other Bama QB led the league in yards passed 3 times and TD once (and Ints. 4 times).
Stabler was 7-5 in the playoffs with 1 SB victory. That Other Bama QB was 2-1 in the playoffs with 1 SB victory.
In his SB, Stabler was 12 of 18 for 180 yards and 1 TD. In his SB, that other Bama QB was 17 of 26 for 208 yards. That other Bama QB made a famous prediction when he won his SB, but in retrospect, I think that Stabler’s playoff win over the Steelers in the AFC championship in 1976 might have more impressive (the Steelers always claim that team was their best and they did shut out 5 teams that year, which is pretty darned good)
As for things that stick in our minds (you know the famous part of the HOF), I suppose that Other Bama QB’s prediction of victory in SB III is one of the top moments ever for the NFL, but Stabler’s Holy Roller moment was also very famous.
BTW, this entire post was written by a devout Chiefs fan who despises the Silver and Black. But credit should be given where credit is due.
Joe– as one of the few people who own autographed copies of all THREE of your books, let me just say that I read this at lunch nearly every day. Sometimes lunch is early, sometimes late, but my first click is here.
And if we can drag in other overlooked-for-no-apparent-reason folks, let me send you to http://www.ciscohouston.com, a tribute to a wonderful folksinger who never got his due. The Quiz to Woody’s George Brett.
Kind of funny, after all that, that you leave Floyd Little off your ballot. He’s a classic example of the flipside of fame begetting more fame: obscurity breeding more obscurity. Had he played for better teams, or just higher-profile teams, he’d probably already be in.
Brent @56: Yes, agreed, Stabler was better than Namath.
So was John Hadl.
And Phil Simms.
And Dave Kreig.
And Drew Bledsoe.
And Roman Gabriel.
And Jim Hart.
And Vinny Testaverde.
In other words, being better than Joe Namath isn’t exactly a great Hall of Fame qualifier.
#30 love to see Homicide getting some respect. The first season is just 6 episodes and is absolutely amazing. The Wire is also great.
I dont get the big bang theory thing at all. How i met your mother is great.
Listen, my children, with deep emotion,
To the midnight ride of Edward Devotion?
or, for all the realists out there:
Listen, my children, with gaping jaws,
To the midnight ride of William Dawes?
@ -49: rural
I agree, John Randle is a first-ballot player. I’ve seen O-Linemen interviews where it seemed like they were about to break out in hives just talking about him.
Besides, he was a great character.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-top-ten/09000d5d810a59e0/Top-Ten-Characters-John-Randle
Paul White:
I agree, saying that being better than Joe Namath makes you a HOF QB is like saying being better than Travis Jackson makes you a HOF SS.
OTOH, I do come back to the overall record Stabler had, 96-49-1. That is extremely good. I would venture a guess that it is much better than most, if not all, those guys you named. Sure, the Raiders around him had something to do with it, but I cannot think of a QB with a 66% winning percentage that isn’t in the HOF, other than him.
I would also venture to say that had Stabler had the luck to be 10 years younger he would have done much better as a QB (he is a natural West Coast offense QB)
I watched Mike Wallace growing up (my parents usually had 60 Minutes on), but when I read his quote, it wasn’t his voice it my head. It was Christopher Plummer’s voice playing Mike Wallace. I think actors get too much praise often for playing famous people from real life, when they’re often doing a glorified impression. But Plummer as Mike Wallace was an absolutely incredible performance.
If Jimmy Carter were on the list, he’d get my vote for most sincere. Not everyone’s going to agree with his views on Israel/Palestine, but he does give careful and serious consideration to both sides of the arguement. That’s more more than can be said for a number of names on the list and it makes it easier to believe that he truly believe’s the conclusions he’s reached.
For more debunking of American Revolutionary history, I highly (HIGHLY) suggest Ray Raphael’s Founding Myths: Stories That Hide Our Patriotic Past. He goes into detail about the truth behind Paul Revere and many other “facts” we’re taught.
http://www.amazon.com/Founding-Myths-Stories-That-Patriotic/dp/1595580735/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_1
One need only look at dermontti dawson so see that there is a major problem with recognition of offensive lineman, particularly interior offensive lineman. Dawson could stake a claim as the greatest center ever, but probably is top-3 with Dwight Stephenson and Mike Webster. He revolutionized the center position. Yet, he has waited five years. I hope he gets in this year. Realistically, the hall of fame should add a couple more slots to the ballot. Only 5 modern and two seniors can get in right now. When you have great skill players retire, they often end up overshadowing the lineman.
As to someone mentioning political magazines, Gregg Easterbrook may not make up lies, but his reasoning skills leave much to be desired. He needs a jump to conclusions mat.
Stewart is number one for two reasons:
1) He’s probably the most well-liked person on the list among readers of the blog.
2) His shtick, such as it is, involves very little hyperbole. His politics are pretty obvious, but his main thing is humor, and his character is basically “smart, informed everyman who is confused by the absurdity of politics.” I think he is actually like that, and so are a lot of people, so it’s not a very tough thing to pull off sincerely.
I voted for Stewart, and my other four picks were Huckabee, Moore, Limbaugh and Maddow. I don’t particularly like any of them, and Limbaugh in particular seems like a jerk, but I do think they actually believe what they preach.
Oh, and Stewart is a Mets fan.
Not to pile on, but, as you might have guessed by now, fans of The Wire can’t help themselves when it comes to singing its praises.
Calling it the greatest achievement in the history of television doesn’t do it justice.
@52 – I’ve never seen The Shield, so I can’t compare, but I will say that several people I’ve turned on to The Wire have said it took them 5 or 6 episodes to really get hooked. Season 3 is my favorite, but Season 4 is probably the best. It’s just too goddam heartbreaking to call my “favorite”.
Brent @63 – I think Stabler was good and deserves consideration, but I think you are selling short the effect the Raiders’ overall talent level had on Stabler’s record as their starter. He had contemporaries like Steve Bartkowski and Gary Danielson and Joe Theismann and Ken Anderson who ALL had better career passer ratings without getting into the HOF, and I just can’t help but think that any of them could have produced a similar record to Stabler’s if they had been Oakland’s QB. A few guys were slightly behind him, like Gabriel and Brian Sipe and Don Meredith, probably could have done it, too.
#47
I don’t think Concepcion is necessarily a HOFer either, but not for the reason you listed. Some teams can be stocked with great players and still not win, while others do.
For example, in the NBA, the Lakers at one time had a starting five that included Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West, and Elgin Baylor, three of the top 15 or 20 players in the history of the sport…yet never won anything together.
At about the same time, the Chicago Cubs had 3 HOFers (Fergie Jenkins, Ernie Banks, and Billy Williams), plus the single most glaring not-quite-in-yet HOFer (Ron Santo), yet never won a thing. Banks was past his prime, but still contributing at a nearly All-Star level, and the other three were in their primes.
Or look at the current Mets; two years ago, they had 3 MVP candidates, plus arguably the best pitcher in MLB, yet didn’t even make the playoffs.
Concepcion’s Reds did win 4 pennants and 2 rings, so it’s not like they don’t have some bragging rights.
I guess I think that the HOF is an individual honor, and a player shouldn’t be penalized for having good teammates.
I frequently play games with really smart people, including one CalTech/JPL employee who (unlike most of the others) is not averse to watching television now and then. I suggested he watch “The Big Bang Theory” because I found it funny and written for folks on the high end of the bell shaped curve of human intelligence. His reply to me was, “I don’t need to watch documentaries about where I work.” But I still find The Big Bang Theory about the smartest show (certainly the smartest comedy) on television. Joe, the next time you’re on a flight that shows it, it’s worth a watch.
As for your poll on sincerity, I watch Jon Stewart pretty much every night, live. That means no fast forwarding through the commercials. My daughter refers to him as “My Jonny.” He’s great at what he does. Two nights ago, when he had Brian Williams as a guest, Jon Stewart let them create a photoshopped picture of Stewart in a wig and a dress as Brian Williams’ high school prom date. It was funny (evidently they did go to high school together). But Stewart is on Comedy Central. He’s not on any kind of news show, and while he is often very sincere he is also often completely and totally making things up for us. Just because Stewart makes it easy for us to tell when he’s making stuff up (unlike Glenn Beck and others) doesn’t make Stewart the most sincere guy in the poll.
There is at least one other possibility for the Wallace “mistake” – he lied. Either for the story to make a point deliberately or just because he didn’t bother to do the research and relied on others. Mike Wallace was definitely capable of doing either of those – big time.
The thing I remember being taught that was wrong (and it was in a school book not just a teacher’s mistake) was that Mercury always faced the same way so one side was always boiling and the other always freezing. At the time that book was published, scientists had known for nearly 10 years that wasn’t true but didn’t care since it was just going to high school students and not to make their reps and fill their wallets or gain patrons.
Over 4 decades later that still pisses me off. And is yet another reason why I don’t trust scientists vying for research dollars – whether they are for or against global warming. If they don’t seem to be consumed with making money or themselves famous, I’m a huge fan of scientists (Galileo, Copernicus, Curie, Einstein) otherwise not so much. There is a reason, after all, why the vast majority of scientists at the time didn’t like Galileo or Copernicus or Curie – they were largely incompetent or just sticking to the status quo.
Dang how did that rant get in here?
I’ve seen every episode of “The Shield” and every episode of “The Wire,” and while I love them both, “The Shield” is like Harmon Killebrew while “The Wire” is like Babe Ruth on steroids.
“The Shield” doesn’t pretend to be anything more than it is — an action-packed, entertaining, extremely well-made TV show with little to offer in the way of philosophy, overarching theme, or complex moral and social issues. “The Wire” — and I think the Shakespeare comparison above is incredibly apt — does address all those important things brilliantly, while ALSO being an action-packed, entertaining, extremely well-made TV show. It is the greatest filmed entertainment ever made — not only better than any other TV show, but better than any movie ever made as well.
All that said, I will admit it took me a whole season to fully get into it. I almost didn’t stick with it at first — but holy christ, I’m glad I did. It’s a show that demands a certain amount of effort on the part of the viewer, but rewards that effort many times over.
@Brent #47 –
I assume you never actually saw Otis Taylor play football, because if you had, you would not write such nonsense about him. Otis Taylor’s not being in the football HoF is roughly equivalent to Bob Gibson not being in the baseball HoF.
More generally — there are a lot of other players from the same team already in, and this disqualifies anybody else from that team? Really? How many do you think each team should be allowed? Who gets to decide this?
I refer you to Malcolm Gladwell’s great book “The Tipping Point” for the Paul Revere (and the other guy not known so well and why)story and how “mavens” etc play into all this
How can anybody vote for Stephen Colbert as the most sincere? I love his show, but he’s playing a character! He doesn’t really believe most of the things he says; he’s parodying other talk show hosts. So he can’t be considered among the most sincere of the people on that list, no matter how much you like his show.
The Big Bang Theory is a work of comedic genius. I would put it up there with Blackadder, Seinfeld and A Midsummer Night’s Dream. Definitely worth a half hour a week.
The rest of those listed shows — steer clear. They are complete time-wasters.
For whoever mentioned it, How I Met Your Mother (which I was forced to watch because I share my house with females) is a formulaic modern sitcom; a computer may have written it. It is almost as bad as Friends, Desperate Housewives and Sex And The City (three other eyeball-tearing-out atrocities I’ve been forced to endure in the name of inter-generational and inter-gender peace).
I lasted ten minutes with The Wire (it was late at night, I was all alone, to quote Rodney Dangerfield out of context). I’ll give it another go.
As for the poll, I didn’t vote but I do know that sincerity is a great attribute. To quote someone else, whose name escapes me, If you can fake sincerity you will go far.
Speaking of sincerity reminds me of some advice I once heard:
“Son, sincerity is crucial. Once you’ve learned to fake that, you’ve got it made.”
The Big Bang Theory isn’t a great show (the writing is a little suspect), but Jim Parsons. Holy crap. He’s unbelievable.
Maureen Dowd should be much higher on the sincere list.
Joe, if you’re going to watch five minutes of television a week, I have to strongly recommend the opening pun of CSI: Miami. Gravelly-voiced Horatio (David Caruso, living and working in Miami, yet insanely pale) will take off his glasses then put the temple in his mouth and make a crime scene related pun that would embarrass, well…a fourth grader.
Police Officer: We found him here at Blockbuster video.
Horatio: And his head was smashed in by a Blu Ray player?
Police Officer: Yep, that’s what appears to have happened.
Horatio: I guess you could say….(taking off glasses, putting the end of the temple in his mouth), he got hit by a Netflix Queue.
Police Officer: (confused and befuddled).
Wheeeeeeeeh!!
(This is the sound of “Won’t Get Fooled Again” by “the Who” starting as the theme song).
PS–I wish I could say I watched “The Wire”, same for “Dexter” and same for the last 3 seasons of “Lost”, but who has the time to catch up?
As a graduate of the Edward Devotion School, I feel compelled to comment. Growing up, I always heard that William Dawes did indeed ride right past the Devotion house, the current site of the school. The minute I read this article, I thought “No, that’s not Devotion, that’s William Dawes!” Incidentally, I didn’t even know that Mike Wallace went to my school, while JFK is pretty much a deity there.
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Barney Miller was a fine TV program (after the first couple of years it really started to fire on all cylinders) but I guess it’s no longer on the tube so I don’t watch much anymore.
What’s the phrase about politicians and sincerity? Once you can fake that you’ve got it made. Probably the same goes for these news reporter folks. Once they start making the big bucks they’ll easily stray from the truth to retain their audience and maintain their schtick (sp?). About now I only trust my own eyes, lying or not. However, being sincere doesn’t make what they are reporting to be truthful. Discerning “the truth” has maybe become one of the most important things that should be taught in our schools – but since that would put much of our educational system out of business our population instead becomes more sheep-like by the day.
I love TV, but have a natural aversion to network programs and… well… almost everything, so it’s difficult to enjoy TV when 99.9% of it’s programming doesn’t just leave me indifferent, it annoys me. Mostly, I just watch Seinfeld and King of Queens re-runs, movies, and sports. A little over a year ago I attended a silent auction that benefited Art with a Heart. I wanted to bid on something, but nothing interested me that hadn’t already been bid out of my price range and into the ionosphere, except for a David Simon autographed copy of the complete series of The Wire sitting, unbid on, in the corner at the end of the auction table. I had heard The Wire was incredible, but I’ve heard similar recommendations for other shows/movies/books and almost always end up disappointed*. However, this was a benefit and halfway through it I noticed no one had bid on The Wire dvds. Since my girl friend and I are always looking for common interests and TV shows/movies to end a night with, this seemed like a worthwhile purchase. If we don’t win the auction, great, Art with a Heart received a bid greater than ours and if we do, we’ll give The Wire a shot and if it stinks, so what? It was a donation. In a sense, we were playing with house money.
After we received the dvds, they sat unwatched for six months. One night, when I was at a CPA review class, my girl friend started watching The Wire dvds, which was a dick move, but better than screwing someone when I was at class, so there’s that. Anyway, I wasn’t that concerned that I missed the first episode and jumped in. We didn’t go to bed until 2 and I was hooked. We mauled the entire series in 3 1/2 weeks. Looking back, I feel like those dvds, to me, sitting unwatched must be like a detective looking back on an unfound unnoticed clue sitting right under that detective’s proverbial nose. The Wire is the best piece of media I have ever seen. Nothing comes close. Much like Joe, I haven’t seen much TV and I’m hardly an avid movie-goer, but at this point, just approaching The Wire’s Shakespearian greatness would be a great creative achievement. Watching The Wire, I didn’t feel like I was watching TV. I felt like I was suffering through other’s real lives – and I rarely escape the comedy genre.
I’m up to Season 3 for my second viewing.
*I think Joe wrote about this before. Although expecting something to be good and being told something is good and watching because of that will result in two different versions of disappointment, nevertheless, in each case, the resulting disappointment is much greater than watching a movie or TV show with no expectation/recommendation or a bad expectation/recommendation and disliking it. If a movie or TV show doesn’t thrill me, I don’t like it. There’s no middle ground. And if someone tells me it’s good and I’m not thrilled, I dislike it all the more.
I’m amazed — AMAZED — that Jon Stewart is at the top of that poll. I’m a completely bleeding-heart liberal, but his wise-ass know-it-all routine is the opposite of sincerity. He’s absolutely, positively in it for the money and glory. 100%.
Moore, on the other hand, seems sincere to me. “Roger and me” is still his best movie, and you can see that he cares about the people and issues he’s filming. I care less for his later stuff, but that’s why I voted for him.
Let’s hope that poll is measuring popularity and not sincerity.
@74. Thanks for the insightful comparison. I’m definately going to give The Wire another shot and stick with it.
Was Dave Concepcion any better than say Clete Boyer for the yankees or Ken Boyer for the Cardinals? Those teams had several HOF’rs … too.
But my real question on all this HOF stuff is this – does being a good or decent interview affect a player’s vote totals for the HOF? I would think there would be a link… to being a good interview or “source” vs. being a lousy interview or downright uncooperative – in terms of HOF vote counts – especially for marginal HOF players.