Run Brett Run!
Posted: January 25th, 2010 | Filed under: Other Sports | 156 Comments »
I will admit up front that that in this particular case the details are foggy in my memory — but the emotions are not foggy at all. I suspect some of you will Packer fans remember the details better. This was maybe three or four or five years ago. I’m pretty sure it was a playoff game (but it might not have been), and I’m pretty sure this happened near the end of the first half. It was third down for the Packers, and they were somewhere near their opponents goal line, maybe the 5-yard line or so.
UPDATE: I remembered the play wrong. As a few Brilliant Readers point out, what happened was that Favre rolled right looking for an open receiver. He crossed the line of scrimmage and, just as he was about to get whacked, he flung the ball forward in this crazy “get the ball away from me” shovel pass. I remembered it being a terrible pass, but it was not. It was, instead a terrible decision to throw the ball when across the line of scrimmage. The point remains the same. He easily could have gotten a first down and possibly might have scored a touchdown. Instead, he bailed.
The thing I DO remember — and remember clearly — was how the announcers got a big ol’ chuckle about it. Ha ha! Look at that gunslinger Brett Favre! Trying to make something happen. That guy’s crazy! He’s like a kid out there! It’s like he’s designing plays in the dirt with sticks! Ha ha! They were yucking it up something fierce (and Favre was smiling too), which is why I remember the moment so clearly. I was furious. This guy just GAVE UP ON THE PLAY. Gunslinger, my Heinie Manush. The guy did not want to get hit.
And look, I’m not blaming the guy — I wouldn’t want to get hit either — but this was BRETT FAVRE, the ultimate gamer, the ultimate fighter, the ultimate ultimater, the guy who would do anything to win, the Farviest Favre in all the Favre. Nobody in their right mind would ever question the toughness of Brett Favre — the guy has played in a bajillion straight games and he has played through countless injuries and he does jeans commercials. But what my eyes were telling me was that he had absolutely NO INTEREST in sticking his head in there and trying to help his team win a game. And the announcers that day did not say anything about THAT… I suspect because it did not fit the image, did not match their preparation, clashed with everything they knew to be true about Brett Favre.
I remember talking about this with friends at the time — we were all, more or less, in agreement about it. But then, the moment just kind of faded into the background — hey, Brett Favre’s body of work trumped this one sour moment. All those big plays! All those last comebacks! All those hits he took! So, fine, one game, he did not want to stick his nose in there. Big deal.
Only I never quite forgot it. And just about every time I watched Favre play, I would notice that once or twice a game when he had a chance to run and gain some easy yards, well, he flatly refused. Hey, I understand — Favre never was a running quarterback and certainly is not now. He’s a man. He’s 40. He doesn’t need to be putting himself in harm’s way.
But, I have to say, some of these refusals to run were almost comical. I was at a game this year against Cincinnati when he rolled out and had about 30 yards of open space — no kidding, 30 yards. He had so much open space that he could not help himself … he did cross the line of scrimmage by a good 8 or 9 yards. But then he seemed to realize what he was doing (“Hey, wait a minute, I’m RUNNING!”), and he panicked, and he actually stepped back and THREW THE BALL. It was pure insanity — the officials were so boggled by the maneuver that it took them a second or two to throw the flag. It was one of the weirder plays I’ve seen.
All of this, of course, leads to the moment Sunday when the Vikings had the ball at the New Orleans 32 with a minute to go. Well, you know the whole situation. The score was tied. The Vikings would have faced a 50-yard field goal to win the game. Now, obviously, 50-yards is a long field goal — you would love to get your kicker a few more yards. But it should be noted that Ryan Longwell, the Vikings kicker, was 8-for-8 at 50-plus yard field goals the last two years. And this game was indoors … he was an awfully good bet to nail a 50-yarder.
But, OK, you want to get him a few yards. But what you DO NOT want to do is allow Brett Favre to throw the ball. I think that’s pretty obvious. Favre has many strengths as one of the game’s all-time quarterbacks, but “making safe throws” ain’t one of them (I don’t care how well he cut down on interceptions this year). So, the Vikings ran the ball on first down, and ran down the clock. They ran the ball on second down for no yards, and ran down the clock. I can’t exactly blame the Vikings for these calls, but there didn’t seem much purpose to them. Hey, if you’re going to to do that, why not just run a couple of quarterback sneaks and gain two or three yards. That’s all they really need to do there.
Third down, timeout, and suddenly the Vikings realize, damn, they might want to get their kicker a few more yards and make his kick a little easier. Sensible. And that’s when they pulled off one of the all-time dumb penalties in Championship Game history — a 12-men in the huddle catastrophe. After a timeout. That’s a gutterball in the 10th frame. That’s a triple bogey on 18. That’s an air-balled free throw. Yes, every so often in sports you will see something that is, unquestionably, a choke. That was a choke.
So now it was a 55-yard kick which is too far, and the Vikings had no choice but to try and get Longwell a little bit closer. Play call selection: They decided to roll out Favre. Again, sensible. This cuts the field in half (presumably) and would give Favre the easy option to throw the ball away or run with it if the primary receiver is not open.
The play gave Favre that exact option. By NFL standards, he had plenty of time to make his choice. Favre determined that his primary receiver was covered.*
*I’ve heard some people disagree and say there was an open receiver on Favre’s side, but Favre saw what he saw.
And this is where I thought back to that game three or four years ago when Favre shouted “Uncle” in the middle of a play. This time, Favre absolutely had an opening to run with the ball. No, he probably was not going to get a lot of yards, but he did not need a lot of yards. It sure looked like there were 5 or 6-yards there for the taking even for a sluggish 40-year-old quarterback who had been beat up during the game. And that was all the Vikings really needed. Five or six yards. Then bring out Longwell.
Here was the “gamer” moment. Here was Brett Favre’s chance to sacrifice his body to give the Vikings a chance to go to the Super Bowl. This was his chance to cement the legacy, to provide the lasting image of the ongoing television series: “Brett Favre, the man who will do anything to win.” This was the time. And as I watched him on TV — even though I wanted New Orleans to reach the Super Bowl* — I actually shouted: RUN!
*With New Orleans now going to the Super Bowl, as you probably know, there are only four teams that have never been to a Super Bowl. But — no offense — Jacksonville has only been in the league since 1995 and so doesn’t really count.
That leaves three. But two of those have their own history. Houston has never had a Super Bowl team, but “Houston” represents two teams. The Oilers did not reach the Super Bowl from 1966-1996, but they became the Tennessee Titans and they DID go to the Super Bowl then. The Texans have not reached the Super Bowl from 2002-to-present.
The Cleveland Browns, though the team name hasn’t changed, have almost precisely the same story. My childhood Browns did not go to the Super Bowl from 1966 to 1995 but they became the Baltimore Ravens (grrr) and they DID go to the Super Bowl then (and they won). The new Cleveland Browns have not reached the Super Bowl from 1999-to-present.
So the cities of Houston and Cleveland have not had a Super Bowl, but their teams have.
That leaves only one true Super Bowl-less team in my mind — the Detroit Lions.
Yes, I shouted “Run!” at the TV. It was a reflex. But, of course, Brett Favre did not run. He clearly had no intention of running. Instead, he attempted the single dumbest pass anyone can remember — a rolling right, throwing left, cross-his-body back-to-the-middle-of-the-field pass, the sort of pass they teach you not to throw about 47 minutes after you are born.*
*First lesson: This is how you breast feed. Second lesson: Cry and someone will change your diaper. Third lesson: In the NFL, you don’t throw across your body back into the middle of the field.
The play has been dissected to death already — and rightfully so — and there is no shortage of things Favre SHOULD HAVE DONE instead of throwing that pass. Hell, he could have stopped in the middle of the play and started doing an interpretive dance to protest the treatment of Conan O’Brien and THAT would have been smarter than what he did.
But as I watched him throw the interception that added one more chapter of grief to the sad story of the Minnesota Vikings, I wondered one more time: “What Makes Brett Favre NOT run?” Here is one of the toughest players in NFL history. Here is a man who, unquestionably, plays football with joy and fervor. Here is a man who head-butts teammates and slaps the helmets of men who sack him. Here is Brett Favre who had brought the Vikings back IN THIS VERY GAME.
So: What makes Brett Favre NOT run? I suppose there could be a pretty interesting novel written about that. But I don’t think anyone would want to read it.
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Circle me Brett!
That’s the one NFL record that Brett Favre probably owns by a bigger margin than the consecutive-game streak – most penalties for throwing a pass after crossing the line of scrimmage.
Guess he doesn’t want to get that “running quarterback” label?
So: What makes Brett Favre NOT run?
The same thing that makes him NOT retire.
Circle Me George Blanda.
Favre looked very old at the end of the game.
But then again, he is very old.
Circle me, Forrest Gump.
Your question is a good one, Joe. I’ve always thought Favre to be fearful of contact (with opposing players). His backpedalling-while-passing skills is really unique, and only works because his arm is so strong. There’s a reason he never gets hurt — he avoids contact at all costs. You’re too nice a guy to say it, but I’m not — he’s kind of a wuss. But a man’s wuss.
Circle me, Favre!
I’ll admit, I screamed at the TV too. The 12-man followed by Favre not taking the yards in front of him has got to be one of the biggest one-two punches in Conference championship history.
He could have his John Elway do anything to win helicopter moment…
Oh, I’d want to read it. I can’t get enough Hardcore Karmic Justice in my life.
I think it’s arrogance. It’s the same reason he makes all those throws into triple coverage. He believes he’s a great thrower and that’s what he wants to do. So, that’s how he operates. He’s not interested in winning at all costs. He’s interested in winning in the ways that make him look most stylish and get those gushes of praise from Peter King and whoever.
Peyton Manning strikes me as more like a guy who will win ugly if he has too. Even Brady moreso than Favre.
Now contrast that with Elway doing the Whirly-bird in the Super Bowl.
He thought he had a better chance of gaining yards with his arm then his legs. History supports this thought process. There was a chance the pass wouldn’t be intercepted. Hell, Brees had three passes that could have been intercepted but were droped.
Joe,
The pounding he took the entire game is why he didn’t run there in that situation. He was beat-up, more than he has been in recent memory. The saints didn’t play pu**foot with him. The tackled him, they hit him, they hurried him, hell they even knocked him down HANDING THE BALL OFF. It was in his head. He was tunnelvisioned, “throw the ball, throw the ball” and he did.
Favre didn’t lose that game, the Saints earned it. Favre was the reason the Vikes were in it to begin with.
Maybe…just maybe…Favre thought the guy was open and he could complete the throw.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m as sick of Brett Favre as the next guy, but Joe you’re making stuff up here:
Brett Favre’s career rushing yards: 1836 yards on 585 attempts
Marino: 87 yards on 301 attempts
Montana: 1676 yards/457 attempts
Elway: 3407 yards/774 attempts
Manning: 704 yds/328 attempts
Bradshaw: 2257 yds/444 attempts
Brady: 577 yds on 305 attempts
Aikman: 1016 yds/327 attempts
Fouts: 476 yards/224 attempts
Kelly: 1049 yds/304 attempts
Warner: 286 yds/173 attempts
Staubach: 2264 yds/410 attempts
Moon: 1736 yds/543 attempts
About that “too many men” penalty, it could have been much, much worse:
http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/many+penalty+final+play+will+forever+haunt+Roughriders/2283719/story.html
You know. He got hit a gazillion times. The crowd was loud as heck. The Vikings tried to give away the game over and over with the five fumbles. The stress and adrenaline and fatigue sometimes effect your thinking. He performed throughout the game in a manner that most 39-year-old men would never be able to do. If you take in account that entire game, Brett Favre did more to help his team win than a lot of guys on that offense on Sunday.
I dunno – there’s just no way, with 50 seconds on the clock that you can just settle for a FGA from 50+ yards. Those runs by Peterson up the middle were essentially dive plays – more intended to run down the clock than gain yards. It has long been my view that coaches get far too conservative about settling for a FGA instead of trying to score a major, but this by Childress really took the cake – and I think a lot of the blame has to go on his shoulders (for putting Favre in the position to make a boneheaded play).
In his younger days, he really did make some plays with his feet. He got into the playoffs one year (95, I think) based off a running play. I think it was 3rd and goal on around the 7 yard line with the clock winding down, and they didn’t have any time outs. The one thing he absolutely couldn’t do is go for the run and not make it. Well he went for it, and darn near came a yard short, but he found a way to dive just over the goalline…barely.
Of course he doesn’t have those kind of legs anymore, and I do really think he goes out of his way to dodge hits now. I wouldn’t overthink this though. For all his strengths, Favre has never distinguished himself as a great decision maker, though he had been sound throughout this season. However, when the moment is heated, Favre has a hard time keeping his composure. Always has. When he should pass, sometimes he runs. Sometimes he should run, but he passes. Into tight coverage at times. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn’t.
This kinda fits into a pattern. His last pass for the Packers is another example. He had an inexplicable pass to doom the Packers in 04′ as well. It’s a part of who he is and I think it is less about fear of getting hit and more about a tendency to let the moment overcome him.
Joe,
I think the play you’re referencing was the Jan 10, 2005 Packers-Vikings playoff game at Lambeau (a/k/a the Randy Moss moon game). Farve was scrambling by the sideline, near the end zone, crossed the line of scrimmage and then tried a shovel pass (which I’m pretty sure was caught), but he was flagged for an illegal forward pass. The camera showed him laughing, and Buck made one of the “he’s just like a kid out there” comments without bothering to mention the penalty or the cost to the team.
In trying to find a boxscore for the game, I came across this gem of a quote from 2005: “[the Vikings] defense got four interceptions off an erratic Brett Favre, who after the game talked of the possibility of retirement.”
Here’s a better article w/ a reference to the play:
“The Packers drove to the Vikings’ 8, but Favre was whistled for an illegal forward pass when he scrambled and flung the ball to Walker in the end zone when he could have slid for the first down at the 2 – even if he didn’t make it, he’d have been close enough for the Packers to go for it on fourth down.”
http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2005/01/09_ap_vikespackers/
Interesting, but ultimately not convincing. He ain’t paid to make plays with his legs and simply didn’t see a corner floating back from outside his field of vision. He admitted he threw the ball late and it was a mistake.
You whole argument is bogus, though, no quarterback WANTS to take hits, and Elway — with his famed helicopter move — hadn’t had a sprained ankle taped up to stay in the game 30 minutes earlier. Just admit that you hate Brett Favre.
What did the announcers say after the interception yesterday?
After looking it up, I’m talking about a play in 1994…week 15. A field goal would have tied it, and 99% of QB’s would have thrown it away rather than going for the win – risking not getting the kicking team out there in time for a sure tie.
Of course this was 16 years ago, and a thousand hits ago, so it doesn’t disprove Joe’s point at all really. I’m just giving an alternate point of view….not everything has changed in 16 years. When a game hangs in the balance you couldn’t count on Brett Favre to do what his coach wanted him to then, and you can’t now either.
Brian is correct. Favre did not run because he was dead at that point. Did you see him getting taped up on the sideline? I don’t know how many quarterbacks would have even come back from that. Obviously throwing across his body was stupid, but the guy was noticeably limping for much of the 2nd half. I don’t see what good “running” the ball in that state possibly could have done for Favre or for the Minnesota Vikings.
joe — thanks for the post. finally someone calling out favre for making huge mistakes (which he has done for 20+ years). hey, he’s had a great career and been a great qb, but he’s a very flawed great qb (if that makes sense).
and thanks for being one of the few people who are calling out the vikings for choking. coming out of a timeout. how does that happen? terrible terrible terrible.
Joe — The play you’re referring to actually happened against the Vikings in the 2004 playoffs. On that play, Favre crossed the line of scrimmage (like you said, about the 5), got to the 2-yard line, realized he was about to get drilled at the goalline, and flipped the ball to Javon Walker in the end zone. It was not one of those plays where tons of guys should have intercepted it. It was one of those plays where a Packer caught it, but Favre was called for being across the line of scrimmage, so there was a costly penalty instead. Had he just slid at the 2, it would have been a first down. Here’s the line from the AP story:
“The Packers drove to the Vikings’ 8, but Favre was whistled for an illegal forward pass when he scrambled and flung the ball to Walker in the end zone when he could have slid for the first down at the 2. Then, Longwell missed a chip-shot 28-yarder. ”
Your point, however, is accurate. He realized he was going to get hit, and unlike in his younger days (specifically his game-winning touchdown dive in the final game ever at Milwaukee County Stadium) he was too afraid of getting hit. Instead, he incurred a penalty, and the announcers — as you suggested — laughed about it for a few minutes while Packer fans stared at their televisions in disbelief. The Vikings ended up winning the game.
Yeah, I think Sean @21 and 22 has the right play. Here’s the gamebook from that day:
http://www.packers.com/images/gamebooks/050109gamebook.pdf
I just think he loves to throw the ball and thinks he can make throws. Not because he’s arrogant or wants to look good, but because he loves to throw. It’s easy to blame the loss on him, but if Peterson hadn’t fumbled when they were at the 10-yard line, they could have kicked a FG and that would have been the game.
It was a terrible, terrible play, but Childress bungled that last drive so badly…you were right, NFL coaches absolutely do not know how to use the clock!! Childress was more concerned with running down the clock than getting into FG range, then his team committed one of THE dumbest penalties in playoff history. Look, I’m a Packer fan till I die, I wanted nothing more than to see Favre choke there…but honestly I think Childress is the goat here…even a below-average NFL coach could have won that game!!
“He’s a man. He’s 40.”
Very funny………..
Joe,
Favre absolutely should have run for 6 yards, and the interception left a lasting image, but I cannot believe the extent to which Brad Childress is being left off the hook here.
The blame for the Vikings’ loss falls primarily on AD for his fumbles, but if one wants to dissect the end of regulation, Favre’s INT – for all its cringe-inducing qualities – was the product of Brad Childress’s horrible game management.
Way too little ink and cyberspace are being devoted to one of the worst-managed endgames (on both sides) in the history of conference championship contests since the AFL-NFL merger in 1970. Childress merely committed these outrageous sins in the final 2 minutes of regulation:
A) Burned a timeout for no good reason with 1:39 left (which is forever!).
B) Got to the New Orleans 33 with roughly a minute left and then, with TWO timeouts STILL in his pocket, WILLINGLY ran the ball twice into the line without using a timeout, thereby broadcasting his intent to…
C) SETTLE for a 50-YARD FIELD GOAL when he could have easily had Favre throw a first-down pass within a no-huddle (not hurry-up!) framework.
D) Not have (only) 11 men in the huddle after a timeout.
E) Forced Favre into a situation where, on 3rd and 15 from the 38, Favre had to pass. Sure, Favre should have run when the play developed, but New Orleans was able to expect the pass initially before the play began.
It was a train wreck, and for a coach to mangle a conference championship endgame situation in such a completely inept manner is truly breathtaking.
The fault lies not in our Favres, but in ourselves, Brad Childress.
@16 Mark Daniel:
2003: 18 rushes for 15 yards
2004: 16 rushes for 36 yards
2005: 18 rushes for 62 yards
2006: 23 rushes for 29 yards
2007: 29 rushes for 12 yards
2008: 21 rushes for 43 yards
2009: 9 rushes for 7 yards
Joe makes a good point. If a guy is playing like a kid out there, and doing whatever it takes to win, even as a 40 year old you’d expect him to pull it down and RUN with the lane that he had on that play.
If your argument was that lately he was an ineffective runner, as compared to his earlier days, I’d surely listen. But comparing his rush attempts over an 18 year career, well, I think Joe already wrote about the power of statistics.*
*Not to say I didn’t exploit them myself
So me and my buddy Joe were discussing our picks before the game. I said I was picking the Vikes to win because of the Favre factor. Funny thing is, Joe said he was picking the Vikings to lose for the exact same reason. Joe was right…
I found it fitting. Interceptions have always been Favre’s tragic flaw. And in a game the Vikings had dominated if not for their shocking innovations in how to fumble a football, our hero, Valiant Brett of Favre, was still marching down the field to glory one last time.
And as if tripped by Paris’ arrow, Farve’s pass flew errantly into enemy hands and the hero was vanquished once and for all (or at least until week 3 of the 2010 preseason.)
I did the same thing when I saw him hanging there in the in open field.
And the wife was confused, “I thought you wanted the Saints to win?”
I told her that wasn’t the point. LOL
It should be noted that Longwell is a 61.1% kicker from 50+ yards for his career (22 for 36). That’s still only a sample size of 36, but it’s better than 8. I was disappointed by that choice, because it was clearly made to make a point and exclude relevant evidence, such as that Longwell was 1 for 6 the two years before that, also in Minnesota.
By this logic, Longwell was only 12 for 15 from 30-39 in the last two years, so the Vikings were better off settling for the 50 yarder. No wonder they called such conservative plays! They were playing the odds!
Or we could assume Longwell to be in line with most kickers, and treat an 8 for 8 when the league average is about 60% just like we would treat a 6 for 8 over a two game span from a .300 hitter, and not talk about how he was 6 for 8 as we preview his at bat in game three.
I have way more of a problem with the conservative playcalling and dumb penalty than I do with Favre’s decision. I think you overstate how much he would gain on a bad ankle and at his age, and he took the chance to give his team a significantly improved field goal. A split second off by the defender or by Rice coming back to the ball, and that “horrible decision” increases the field goal chance dramatically.
Sigh. I thought this was my place of refuge today. Look, I can’t even be bother to type my user name correctly.
Sigh.
I was mentally swearing the moment he cocked his head left*. You should have heard the things my youngest son said about Favre….
*note, my youngest son was in the room, hence the swear words were all in my head, and this was before he even cocked his arm.
A couple of things. 1) I thought the ball was on the 34 and so the pre and post 12 men distances were 52 and 57, not 50 and 55. Am I wrong or was the ball on the 34 before the penalty?
2) When did we start adding 18 yards to the line of scrimmage for FG distances instead of 17? Are they snapping the ball back an extra yard now or is it just that the ball was sort of between the 34 and 35 (or 32 and 33 if I’m wrong) and the holder might be “officially” 7 or 8 yeards deep depending on where he sets up?
3) Isn’t it a penalty to call 2 consecutive timeouts? Watch the replay…the ref throws the 12-men flag just as Favre (I think) signals for a timeout. (The “I think” part is that it was Favre – I’m sure someone on the Vikes was signalling for timeout). My immediate thought was that the flag was for back-to-back timeouts because the Vikings had just called timeout after the previous play.
“a rolling right, throwing left, cross-his-body back-to-the-middle-of-the-field pass, the sort of pass they teach you not to throw about 47 minutes after you are born”
…good, I’m not the only one who thought that.
First, I much take on my duty as a Ravens fan and point out that according to the NFL records the Cleveland Browns were placed on a three-year hiatus* while they were sold and Art Modell was awarded an expansion franchise in Baltimore. And I’m only partially being tongue-in-cheek with that description.
*Which is, of course, a better fate than seeing the team wearing the colors your father, grandfathers and other relatives rooted for go for a championship in another city.
Second, as much as I enjoyed seeing the Saints win and Favre get his dose of karma, I agree with many of the above that there was plenty of failure to go around to put him in that situation.
You have a coach going soft at a critical moment. You have your backup running back in for the franchise’s biggest moment in 35 years because your star starter laid too many fingers on other peoples Butterfingers. Then you have the entire coaching staff dropping the ball on the 12th man thing.
He probably should have run-and-slid, or thrown the ball away, but despite the mocking of the gunslinger label (which is deserved in most cases) that is his mentality. If no one else was going to bother to try and win, he was by God!
Although, I did laugh over the Minnesota radio announcer’s call of the play that’s making the rounds. “This isn’t Detroit, man!”
It’s a little counter-intuitive to run in that position. Quarterbacks are taught to scramble so that they can make a throw downfield, not so that they can run with the ball. Plus, the moment you have to decide what you’re going to do is just a split second. Think in this game and you get clobbered; you really have to react.
At the end of it all, Favre made a bad reaction (or a reaction if you will) here. Happens. Bad quarterbacks make 8-12 of these every Sunday. I can’t kill him too much.
I didn’t like how Brad Childress handled the final three minutes, however. Had Andy Reid lost a game in that matter, the media and public would have a field day.
The argument that Brett Favre could not run due to being hurt is ludicrous. He rolled all the way out — what’s 5-6 more yards?
Joe is spot on to point out that it goes against his image. I think of Steve DeBerg’s broken finger, Donovan McNabb’s broken ankle, Byron Leftwich’s broken shin… that’s going above and beyond. When you’re one field goal away from the Super Bowl, and you can still jog well enough to roll out, how can you not scramble and NOT get scrutinized?
Matt-33, great post. I agree with pretty much everything you said. Brad Childress is lucky he doesn’t coach in a major media market; he would be crushed for this. Somehow, he’s getting a pass.
Wow, I gotta say t hat I love the Favre apologies that begin shortly after the beginning of the thread. Some of you have great points – I especially like the idea that Favre should try to win by doing what he does best – but my favorite has got to be Marco at 15: Really? Did you thought he was open? Cause everyone else on earth knew it was a stupid throw the second it left his hand. And Not everyone else is paid millions of dollars to quarterback his team in Conference Championship games.
I’m a Patriots fan.
Brett Favre just had the most remarkable season in his career. In a season where everyone expected him to fold he excelled. He willed the Vikings to be one of the last three NFL teams standing this year. The man is 40 getting creamed by roid raging, playoff adrenalin pumping 20 somethings three times his size. he got up again and again. In my book the guy is an all time stud, picks or no picks. Frankly, I’ve never seen anything like it.
As some have said. If AD could hold on to the ball and BC had a CLUE about game management we’d be building more statues talking about possibly the single greatest QB matchup in Superbowl history. I know we’re all disappointed in that but to suggest he lost that game for the Vikings is ludicrous. Without him this season they don’t even make the playoffs.
Sorry for the second post, but I forgot:
Gotta agree with Adam two posts up. He’s such a tough guy but can’t manage even 5 yards forward with he Super Bowl on the line?
There were defenders in the are. He was running on an ankle he injured earlier in the game. I don’t see him gaining more than a few yards. They started on the 38… if he gains 6 yards (and i don’t think he would have gotten that much) it’s still a 50 yd kick. All this could have been avoided by running the ball on 3rd down, letting the clock run down, and giving your kicker a chance to win the game.
“He was running on an ankle he injured earlier in the game. I don’t see him gaining more than a few yards. ”
Why’s he in there, then? I bet Tavaris Jackson coulda gotten 5 more yards.
Favre is who we thought he was, and he let the Saints off the hook. Now if you want to crown them, then crown their ass!
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“So the cities of Houston and Cleveland have not had a Super Bowl, but their teams have.”
I don’t know if this was written out of bitterness, but the teams of the cities of Houston and Cleveland definitely have not had a Super Bowl.
As a Baltimore football fan, that would mean 13 days from now the Colts are trying to win a 3rd Super Bowl championship, and 5th overall, for the team of the city of Baltimore residing in Indianapolis. God bless the old Baltimore Colts, but they’re history. The Colts are in Indy*, the Browns are in Cleveland, and the Ravens are in Baltimore thankfully without the numerical and franchise history of the Cleveland Browns.
*I wish the Colts would’ve at least changed their name. The football of Indianapolis should have its own heritage and not be associated with that of another region.
“So the cities of Houston and Cleveland have not had a Super Bowl, but their teams have.”
The Titans are not Houston’s team. Are the Rams still LAs team? Are the Dodgers still Brooklyn’s team? Boo that man!
Yeah, I was waiting for Favre to turn back into Favre. He picked the Favreiest time to do it.
I meant “statistical”, not “numerical”.
@54, we were separated by space and (not much) time, but thinking the same shit.
Are the Rams Cleveland’s team? Are the Cardinals Chicago’s team?
@34 Dan. I don’t disagree with Joe’s point that he should have run the ball on that play, but the implication was that Favre has always opted not to run. The numbers you cited started at age 34. Look how many yards Montana or Aikman or Kelly ran for after age 34. The fact is Favre ran plenty for a QB over his career.
The blame for that pass goes to Favre. The blame for the loss goes to the whole bungling, stumbling, confused team.
Favre had four or five choices there. I list in order of how preferable they are, in terms of the odds of winning.
1)Run the football, get as many yards as possible
Probably results in some modest gain, small chance of a fumble. Favre gets pummeled. Longwell attempts a 50-yard field goal, which he’s good at but not automatic.
2)Run the football, sliding to avoid the hit
I must confess that I couldn’t watch the game, so I don’t know if there was a realistic shot of gaining any yards without getting hit. If so, this would have been the obvious choice for a QB who both wants to be his team’s hero and not get crushed.
3)Throw the ball out-of-bounds. No yardage gained, no turnover risked. Longwell attempts a 55-yarder, which he probably has something like a 20-40% chance of making. Some chance the kick gets blocked and returned for a score, losing the game right away.
4)Force the ball into a covered receiver on the right-handed side of the field. Might get completed, might get picked–odds probably favor it just getting batted away. Obviously much riskier than just throwing it way.
5)What Favre did. As a Bears fan, I’m totally in favor of this particular strategy from this particular player for this particular team.
“This isn’t Detroit, man.”
True. But every other NFC team has been to the Super Bowl since the Vikes last went when Ford was still president.
I agree with all those regarding the Ravens’ not in anyway being a Browns’ title. Indeed, that was the whole point of the deal that the NFL worked out with modell…that the Browns got complete ownership of their franchise history. Jamal Lewis is the greatest RB in Ravens’ history, not Jim Brown. But I suspect Joe knows this and was just stretching a point to poke a little fun at the Lions.
Justyo @ 47: Comments like yours are the reason I hate Brett Favre and the reason why Favre throwing a godawful INT to destroy the Vikings season at the very end was the best possible result to yesterday’s game. I didn’t just want the Vikings to lose, I wanted Favre to be the goat.
But aside from that, Favre did not will the team to that spot. The Vikings had one of the best offensive lines and one of the best defensive lines in the NFL. With no other talent at all, they’d be decent. But they have other talent. They have one of the best RBs in the NFL. And some talented receivers, including a very good tight end. They have so much talent that they were the NFC North champions last year, without Favre, when they went 10-6 even though they were QB’d by the Tavaris Frerotte monster. Favre is much, much better then Tavaris Frerotte and so with him the Vikings won 2 more games then last year, got a higher seed, and won a playoff game at home. Favre was the difference between last year and this year but he didn’t “will” them to the NFC title game, he just played better then the shitty QBs they had last year.
Also, they weren’t one of the last 3 teams standing just because their game happened to be the evening game, they were one of the last 4. They were eliminated at the same point in the season as the Jets, Week 20. The team that loses the second semifinal in the NCAA tourney didn’t last longer then the team that lost the first semi. Jimmy Connors didn’t come in 3rd (alone) at the 1984 US Open because his match was at night and Pat Cash’s was in the daytime.
The Patriots got pinged for a 12 men in the huddle penalty in the 2006 AFC Championship against the Colts. That one was on the first play of a possession with 3:22 left in the game.
I still believe the Vikings would have been better served with Tarvaris and basing the team around Peterson.
They would also be in better shape heading into next year as well.
I will not miss Favre at all.
#24 Spud.
I believe Aikman basically implied that while Favre will go down as one of the best quarterbacks ever, there’s been plays in the past, and this was certainly one, that will have rightfully tarnished his legacy. I am an Eagles, but i like Aikman-the-Announcer. It’s almost like he is too rich not to be honest. I kind of respect that.
Oh, and while i have the venue, Joe wrote an article a few weeks ago about why he liked Favre — (roughly) his honesty. I don’t watch American Idol, but Favre’s rendition of Pants on the Ground from the show is exactly why i like favre…and sports.
Mark Daniel @ 57: I had the same thought as you that, in his young days, Favre was quite an effective runner for a QB. But I don’t think the implication was that Favre had always opted not to run, just that for a long time now, he has opted not to run, which seems counter to his well-known rep as the ultimate gamer. None of the examples Joe referenced pre-date 2004, and, as another reader pointed out, it’s been 8 full seasons since he’s rushed for even 63 yards in a season, despite playing every single game.
In fact, I think part of Joe’s point is that the rep persists despite years (at this point) of at lease one type of evidence to the contrary.
Also, the QBs you cited @ 16…none of those guys had the same “ultimate gamer” rep as Favre (with the possible exception of Elway) so the fact that they didn’t run much has really nothing to do with Joe’s point about Favre.
Look at that play again. There’s 10 yards between favre and the closest saint. No remember how quickly NFL players close the distance between themselves and running back and wide receivers. Now think about how slow Favre is. As soon as Favre shows any indication he’s running, he’s a heat signature for a QB seeking missile. He gets maybe 2 yards before he’s meat. No way he comes close to 5 much less 10 mythical yards. Yeah, he made a stupid throw and you’d rather have Longwell try from 53 yards than turn it over, but no way Favre runs for any decent yardage on that play. The choice was to throw the ball away or try and make something happen. It was never run for yardage.
I approve of this post, because I’m a man! I’m 40!
# 64: metz
If, as you say, there were 10 yards between Farve and the nearest Saint player, then Farve gets at least six yards, much more than the two yards you claim, despite the speed disadvantage. This is because (a) Farve has his momentum going forward, the defenders don’t, and (b) the defenders will be slow to react to Favre’s running because their responsibility is to cover the pass. Moreover, with Favre’s ‘creativity’ he could fake a pass and slow down the defenders even further.
Favre had a great game, a great year, and he’s had a great career. But he’s more an entertaining player than he is a winning player. Nothing wrong with that. But the author is correct to wonder why his reputation is the other way around.
I’m in the “Childress screwed the pooch royally” crowd (see #33).
But I have to share my favorite ridiculous Favre apology, from Tom Jackson — not sure I’ve got the quote exactly, but I think I got the gist:
“He’s never been afraid to throw a pick. People talking about ending this game or that game with a pick, making such a big deal about it . . . he’s never been afraid to throw a pick. That’s one of the things I admire about Brett Favre.”
Knowing what Favre did, maybe Childress wasn’t that dumb to play for a 50 yard FG after all? Oh, wait, he and his staff allowed 12 men to get into the huddle coming out of a time-out . . . .never mind.
And yes, I think that would have been a penalty for double time-out, but once there were twelve men in the huddle the Vikings were screwed either way.
I’M A MAN, I’M FORTY!!!
Also go Lions.
1) Name me a ‘great Favre game.’ The closest I can think of is the MNF game after his father died. I can think of way more brainfart moments like last night than I can think of times he won a game under pressure.
2) Find me another elite QB with as terrible a career TD/Int ratio as Favre.
3) If not for Desmond Howard’s MVP work in the Super Bowl against the Patriots, perhaps the Packers don’t win over a mediocre Patriot team. Take away that game, and Favre’s career is much like that of Donovan McNabb’s. A bunch of NFC championships, a couple Super Bowl appearances, but a lot of letdowns of big expectations.
It’s reasons like that (and his continued free passes from the media) that make me angry when he’s mentioned in the greatest QB ever discussion.
[...] the table and reflecting thoughts many of us have been fighting with over the last 24 hours. Read Joe’s thoughts here. ‹Previous Post Here are the apps being tested on the Apple Tablet, [...]
Would Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr, Len Dawson, Joe Namath, or Joe Montana run with the ball in that situation? I doubt it.
Re: the play you were talking about Joe P; as a Green Bay native, I remember it well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxAQPupmxLQ
Vikings came into Lambeau and won a wild card playoff game in 2004. See the play at about 2:10 of the clip.
What I found surprising was Favre’s comment after the game that he did not have a yardage target in his mind. “I had no idea how much yardage we needed on that play”. Really? That would certainly affect the decision to run or throw. Childress must have a yard line in mind (though I agree that the idea of playing for a 50 yarder with downs, time and timeouts left is a head-scratcher). I can think of several QBs who would certainly have an idea of how many yards were needed on the play. They will play again in a few weeks.
Reading the article and most of the comments has left me confused as to what this is all about.
Is there a critisism of his toughness? He got hit plenty and then got hit some more. Whether he ran or not doesn’t change that. He got hit, he was tough.
Is the critisism that he didn’t live up to his reputation as a gamer? Unless he claimed himself to be a gamer then the reputation is bestowed on him by “others” (read “you”) and he has no obligation to play in a way that makes you happy. Maybe the reputation is not right and needs refining – you should adjust the reputation you have assigned (“he’s a gamer but he’s got a bit of a blind spot with running”). On the other hand he has a reputation for making flakey decisions and he lived up to that reputation – and he’s getting kicked for it. What do you people want?
…and I was quite happy to see the Saints win. Just don’t understand people complaining about Brett Farve playing like Brett Favre. He’s got a large body of work and as far as I can see this game was a fair summary. No one should be surprised or annoyed.
Of course I could be talking rubbish – I’m Australian living in China so NFL is limited to snippets so I’ve hardly seen enough to have an independant and informed opinion.
That interpretive dance would have been something to see. I bet Favre does a killer Conan imitation.
If you wrote it, Joe, you can bet your Bert that I’d read it.
Joe is, once again, right on the money with this post. Favre is obviously a tough customer in the pocket (he took a beating yesterday, and I did not think he’d come back from that ankle injury), but he is an absolute wuss in the open field.
There’s no getting around it. I’m willing to admit that I’d be the same way, but I’m not paid millions of dollars to do what he does. Favre was flagged for a whopping THREE illegal forward passes this season, including the one Joe mentioned against the Bengals.
I remember vividly the play that Joe describes from the ’04 playoff game between the Vikings and Packers. Favre had yardage gained, plus a possible TD if he lowers his shoulder, but he wussed out as soon as a defender was about to hit him. It was embarrassing then, and it’s embarrassing now.
The excuses for Favre are pathetic. Would he have gained a lot of yards? Probably not, but Minnesota didn’t need a lot of yards. Just pick up a few and make it a little easier field goal for Longwell. Was he banged up? Absolutely, but with the Super Bowl on the line, it’s neither the time nor the place to concern yourself with that. Any competitor, with such huge stakes on the line, should be willing to throw themselves out there for the good of the team. You just do it.
And besides, Favre always has the option of sliding after he picks up a couple of yards. He’s simply afraid to run, and it’s odd coming from someone who’s obviously an otherwise tough player.
Somewhere around here is an analogy comparing Brett Favre with Nolan Ryan…
Lets lay a couple of things out here:
1) He absolutely could have run for the 5-6 yards…he moved great on the rollout, so all this bunk about him being too tired or too injured is just that…bunk.
2) I don’t think he was scared of getting hit, I think he just likes to throw the ball and I honestly think he believed he could make that throw.
That said, what a horrible, horrible decision.
I have been waiting ALL SEASON for Favre to make that play (not necessarily wanting it to happen, but expecting it to). We were all witnessing bizarro-Favre this year where he played consistently smart football. This pass epitomizes his career and is one of the reasons I simply can’t put Favre in the top 5 QBs of all time, even though he definitely had the stats to justify it.
Last word…I believe this is a bit of karmic justice given how he threw his past Packer teams under the bus. Yes, this Vikings team was talented, but I don’t think it was any more talented than the Packers teams of the mid-to-late 90s and even some during this decade. He whined and complained in Green Bay because of “lack of weapons”, but those teams still found a way to win plenty, and ironically, it was usually his poor decision-making in the playoffs that cost his team the victory. And lo and behold, after playing nearly an entire season of terrific football, he reverts to form.
I’ve been a Saints fan since before the ‘Aints of ’81. We’ve suffered at the hands of the Vikings before.
I used to joke with people I knew nothing about sports because I supported the
Phillies
Sabres
Saints
right now 2 out of 3 aint bad!
Thanks Brett!
okay 1980 Aints.
Archie/Saints vs Peyton! I’ll be watching.
There was an open receiver right on the sideline about 6 or 7 yards in front of Brett. His problem is that he tries to make the hard play, the wrong play, the stupid play, the spectacular play instead of making a winning play. I am a Brett Favre fan but only because he has never played for a team that I root for. I think he would drive you crazy if he is your quarterback. Luckily for me I root for the Chiefs who give me very little reason to root for them at all.
@60
You HATE Favre? How can you hate someone you’ve never met. Relax man, it’s a game and if you can’t appreciate one of the greatest accomplishments in NFL history OK. Be a hater. I thought his season was awesome and again if AD could hold on to the rock, or BC manage the end game – they wouldn’t need that last drive.
And Favre did will the team there. Whether you want to believe it or not. Despite BC.
let it goooooooooo Brett, let it goooo. Retire before one of these rookies hit you and you can’t remember what your name is little lone why you chose to keep playing. Great guy, Great Career, Great Stats, Great everything! But for the love of God STOP!
Favre pulled the same stunt — crossed the line of scrimmage then shoved a pass just before being hit — in a game vs. the Bengals in 2005. At that stage in his career he clearly wasn’t interested in “taking hits for the team” if he was running. I’m a Packer fan and was outraged at this cowardly behavior. Purely selfish and boneheaded, costing his team a major penalty each time. People laughed it off but I didn’t. And now he cost the Vikings a Super Bowl appearance because he didn’t want to take a hit. And that throw up for grabs vs. the Eagles in the 2003 playoffs — what a boneheaded play that was! It’s sad — Favre’s had a great career. But guys like Elway, Marino, Montana, they didn’t make a plethora of boneheaded or cowardly plays like Favre has.
Here is the Viking radio call on the armpunt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJt4hDlEbPw
Take a look at the game Pittsburgh beat them to break up their undefeated season. There was a fumble or interception returned for a touchdown. Favre had a great chance to stop that from being a touchdown, but doesn’t even try. He was the only Viking that had a chance to make a play.
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by JPosnanski, Matt Malone, Brian Baute, Chris Volinsky, Jonathan Moreland and others. Jonathan Moreland said: Why @JPosnanski is my fav sportswriter – 1,800 (great) words about 1 play from last night (what makes Favre NOT run?) http://bit.ly/4LVy9N [...]
If Favre doesn’t return to the Vikings, wouldn’t that make this the third team where he has ended his career with them by throwing an interception on his final throw?
When he retires, unretires, retires, and then unretires again next season, whichever team he goes to would be wise to not let him throw at the end of the 4th quarter of any close playoff games.
I have no problem with Favre, who has had a great career. But man.
You know what really depresses me, Joaldo?
The Royals could almost certainly improve the team by signing Emil Brown and giving him 500 AB’s.
I mean no disrespect to Emil Brown.
Hey frog post 74- Happy Australia day ! and by the way youre not at all wrong about what u say about Favre.Hes certainly is tough- has had a hall of fame career- and sont worry about some of the posts here.Many are astute such as writer Joe and Matt post # 33 but as a Canadian Lving in OZ for many years I can tell u some of the ‘Favre’ haters are much like Wayne”the King’ Carey haters were in OZ- (in the prime of his career not post)- they just love to hate- basically its just plain jealousy.But even more ironically Brett is a much more likeable guy then Carey ever was, so its actually even worse with the Favre “haters” or before him the Elway “haters” – these ‘homer’ fans WISH they were playing for THEIR team! hehe.
ive been saying that for 10 years now , you watch alot of favre ints. he sees hes gonna get hit so he hurries throw and then ducks
@60: No, the Oline is not one of the best in the game. Go to the various stats’ sites. Herrera and Sullivan were bad to terrible, and Loadholt was mediocre. They pass blocked well, but the RBs led the league in being hit at or behind the line of scrimmage, again, this year.
I used to “hate”* Favre for the way people talked about him. Then I thought about it, and realized I hated the way people talked about him, but loved the way he played (this was years ago, not this year). So, I’ve long been a fan of Favre, and how he played the game and led his team.
*I really can’t hate a person I’ve never met that isn’t some kind of evil person, hence the quote marks. But, I feel I can hate the way people talk about someone….
Favre did not single handedly carry this team (it is a team sport, much like w-l is a stupid stat in baseball, QBs get too much credit/blame). They won 10 games last year, without Harvin or a healthy Rice or Ray Edwards playing for his next payday and a total stiff at RT. But, and this was not something I thought I’d be saying at the start of the year, I do think he made the team better this year. One game better? Who knows? But, if they Vikes don’t fumble that game away, I think they are in the SB this year, and Favre, like other players on the team, were responsible for those outcomes achieved this year – outcomes that were pretty darned good.
As a Packers fan, that play was so fun to watch. He’d done it over and over again to us. I was just waiting for him to pick his spot to do it to Vikings fans, and sure enough, he didn’t disappoint.
What I don’t understand is… Vikings fans had seen him do this kind of BS against them for years. But they were willing to suspend belief that he would do it to them.
Call me bitter, but I was pleased as punch. Throw in the fact that I was rooting for the Saints (with the other 95% of America) and it was even sweeter.
I choose not to run!
If you’re going to steal my stuff Brett, at least post a youtube link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fjqvZCwrh0
One of the all time worst plays to cap a great season.
As a KSK commentor said, “Favre turned heel at the last second”.
Right on Joe. 100% Right on.
For so many years Favre refused to run for a first down or a few yards here or there – instead opting for a lousy pass. He so very rarely tried to extend a drive by running.
As a GB fan, I’m glad the rest of the world has noticed.
Joe-
I find it incredible that your takeaway from that game is to question Favre’s physical courage. Literally incredible. You can’t comprehend the beating he took in that game. Any one of those hits was tantamount to a mid-speed car wreck. Question his decision-making. Question his grace under pressure. Don’t question his toughness.
#94
The thing i never got about the “i told you so” Favre point was the persepctive. Yeah, leving Green Bay was one thing. they had a nice young qb and they made a tough choice. but to tell the jets fans “But they were willing to suspend belief that he would do it to them” isn’t really fair because they had no QB. yes, pennington had a good year in miami but his time in NY/NJ was clearly done.
To say the Vikings suspended belief in signing Favre doesnt take into account that tavaris jackson wasn’t going to get it done. so yeah, it’s frustrating in Minn but the end result is still better than the alternative (unless losing in the first round would be less frstrating than losing like THAT which might be true).
NOT funny.
#66. In the replay you can see that #93 on the Saints was just a couple yards to Favre’s left and coming right at him. Also, when Favre threw the ball, 2 Saints players were at the 31 yard line watching him. Favre needed to get to the 32 to make it a 50-yard FG.
He was standing on the 40 when he threw the ball, so he still had to go 8 yards. There were at least 3 Saints players who would have gotten to him well before those 8 yards.
Favre’s been around a while. While it’s true he doesn’t run much anymore, I’m certain he knows when he can make 6 yards and when he can’t. If you watch the replay, there is a full 8 or 9 yards between Favre and the two Saints players in front of him. But there was also #93 bearing down on him from his left. If Favre tucked that ball and started running, that 8-9 yard gap in front of him would close fast. And Favre knew it.
I don’t think Favre’s reputation as the “ultimate gamer” should be sullied because of that play. He’s freaking 40 years old, he hasn’t missed a game in, well, ever, and he led his team to the final drive of the 4th quarter of the NFC championship game despite 6 fumbles and poor coaching and bad clock management and a stupid penalty despite taking hard hits and a few cheap hits all game long. Christ, I’m only 35 and I can barely get out of bed after eating too much Taco Bell the night before.
You thought the same thing we all thought, Joe — your ankle’s good enough to be in the game and good enough to roll out, so it’s damned well good enough to go another 4-5 yards before you slide.
I’m also pretty tired of hearing how the Vikings wouldn’t have been a playoff team without Favre this season. As was pointed out by Bill (#60) above, Minnesota was 10-6 last season with less talent, younger receivers and the utterly awful Jackson/Frerotte combo under center. I believe if you put Sage Rosenfels into this situation, you get almost exactly the same result — not necessarily through QB play, but because the Vikes would have continued to rely on Peterson and Taylor through the second half of the season instead of succumbing to be “The Brett Favre Show” as they did.
Some stats from sonsofsamhorn.net:
1997: Loses to Broncos in Super Bowl, throws 1 pick
1998: Loses to 49ers in Wild Card Round, throws 2 picks
1999: Doesn’t make playoffs at 8-8, lost 4 team tiebreaker
2000: Doesn’t make playoffs at 9-7
2001: Loses to Rams in Divisional Round, throws 6 (!) picks
2002: Loses at home in Wild Card Round to 9-6-1 Falcons (after going 12-4), throws 2 picks
2003: Loses to Eagles in Divisional Round, last pass of season is INT in OVERTIME (4th and 26 game)
2004: Loses at home to Vikings in Wild Card Round, throws 4 picks
2005: Doesn’t make playoffs at 4-12 (led league in picks) (Gets Mike Sherman canned)
2006: Doesn’t make playoffs at 8-8, lost 4 team tiebreaker
2007: Loses to Giants in NFC Championship Game, throws 2 picks, including last pass of season in OVERTIME
2008: Doesn’t make playoffs at 9-7, last relevant pass of season is INT (led league in picks)
2009: Loses in NFC Championship Game, throws 2 picks, including last pass of season at end of 4th Quarter
So, Aaron, your point is that the teams he is on usually make the playoffs? Or, your point is that the QB is solely responsible for wins and losses?
I can’t believe some of the blind hatred for Brett Favre. He didn’t run because he’s brought the Vikings to numerous victories with the pass. And it’s ridiculous to assume Longwell’s kick would be a given from 50 yards out in the superdome.
This is without a doubt a shi++y article. To presume that Favre didn’t run because he’s a wuss is preposterous. Favre is a guy I saw throw a block against Houston in a preseason game this year. And you’re questioning his toughness? After 19 years in the league without missing a start? You should be ashamed for writing this article. How many superbowls, victories, and countless starts does it take for a man to get respect?
Why don’t you write an article posing the question “Why Can’t the Packers Fans Get Over the Loss of Brett Favre?”
Joe,
You’re asking the wrong question. Here are some better ones:
1. When was the last time you saw Brett run? (Answer: I don’t know. Somebody can go through film and tell you.)
2. How many times did Brett run this year? (Answer: Tough to exactly say with sacks, but he was credited with 9 rushing attempts this year. 9! In 16 games!)
And then the all important one:
3. Based on that, why would anyone in the world (including you, Brad Childress, etc…) ever expect him to run in any situation?
Joe, you forgot Favre’s most public and obvious lay down, the one that gave Strahan the (sham) single season sack record. Favre saw him coming, took a seat and waited for him to come tag his helmet. Yeah thats a record.
Justyo @ 83:
Really, you have to meet someone to hate them? I hate Hitler. Should I not because I’ve never met him?
Of course I’m not comparing Favre to Hitler, I’m just pointing out that it’s obviously possible and legitimate to hate someone you’ve never met. You can hate someone based on their actions.
I hate Brett Favre because of the way he screwed over the Packers (everyone blames the Packers for getting rid of him…they wanted him back after the title game but he wouldnt commit, he holds a teary retirement press conference, the Packers use valuable draft picks on Brian Brohm and Matt Flynn and then Favre decides to come back and he’s entitled to be pissed when they don’t welcome him back with open arms? Gee Brett, maybe if you’d told us this before the draft we would have, you know, not drafted 2 QBs we don’t need for awhile.)
I hate Brett Favre for the way he screwed over the Jets by continuing to play last year even though he was hurt to the point where he was hurting their chances to win and make the playoffs. If it wasn’t for his ego and his consecutive start streak, he could have stepped aside and let Kellen Clemens play.
And I hate Brett Favre for the way people like you, Justyo talk about his “will.” And you point to nothing except “he willed that team there no matter what you think.” It wasn’t his damn will, it was his talent. He is one of the best 12 or so QBs to ever play the game. So when he took over a Vikings team that won the division and went 10-6 and played a home playoff last year, and improved their record by 2 games and won a hiome playoff game this year, that wasn’t the force of his mystical will. It was the force of his talent, which is very great. He didn’t will the team there anymore then Drew Brees overcame the Vikings with his will. Favre just played better than the QBs the Vikings used to have.
@Mike in MN – Aaron’s point seems to be that in eight season-ending losses dating back to 1996, Brett Favre has thrown TWENTY, count ‘em, 20 interceptions. In three of those eight losses, the final pass he threw was picked, twice in overtime. In two of the five non-playoff seasons, he led the league in interceptions.
Favre is a great quarterback, but he doesn’t take care of the ball. The failures are not solely his fault, but neither are we talking about a Blyleven-esque failure of his team to give him enough support to win, like the Packers did with Aaron Rodgers last season (and to a certain extent in their playoff loss).
Tom @ 106: I think the point is that lately, Favre has had a tendency to shy away from contact, at least when he’s outside of the pocket. It’s not about hatred. It’s an observation that, if correct, probably played a role in the outcome of the NFC championship game.
Also, that block you’re referring to in the Houston preseason game is not going to help your case. That was an illegal crackback block in which Favre, rather than taking on the defender and, you know, initiating actual contact, bailed out and dove (back first) at Eugene Wilson’s legs, injuring him. And it’s not like Eugene Wilson is a massive dude either.
I doubt that Favre set out to intentionally do anything dirty on that play, but I think it’s actually further evidence for Joe’s case rather than an illustration of how tough Favre is.
See for yourself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncPSbDPpYwY
Just want to pile on and say that I did a spit-take when I read that the Browns “became” the Ravens.
How dare you?
The Browns have been to the Super Bowl in the same sense that I’m still making out with my ex-girlfriend. I’m not — that b-scratch left me, and what she does now is none of my business. So it is with the Baltimore Ratbirds. And so it shall ever be.
You mean that illegal block that Favre threw on Eugene Robinson, Tom. The one that hurt the guy on the play. Some tough guy that Favre is to hit a guy in the knee on an illegal crackback. As for people like justyo saying Brett willed them to where the Vikings got, does that mean Brett also willed them to lose? Regardless, “willed” is such an idiotic and meaningless statement that it surprises me that people even mention it.
Also, I would like the point out that it is also idiotic and meaningless to make a claim that people who criticize Favre are “blind haters” just as it would be idiotic and meaningless for Favre critics to call the other side “blind apologists” or some other term.
Favre did not lose this game. He could have run, should have run but didn’t. In theory. The man could barely walk! Not because of his age, he was more than banged up. Had he sit on the bench like most QB would have done nobody would have talked about him not willing to run on a play. QB at 40 use a remote control on sunday and watch the game on TV. Does that mean that at the venerable age of 40 he should have stayed on a couch? Look at his season numbers. Just about MVPesque.
If you really want to question something about him doing something that is not good for the team then question why he will not pull himself out of a game even if his body is urging him to do so. It’s what happened with the Jets last year.
As for trying to find who lost the game, look at Peterson’s 3 fumbles (he did closed his arms before getting the ball on the exchange) and I know that it wasn’t the point in your article but somehow, the point seems to have been lost. I always find comical how the only thing that matters is the last minute of play. If Peterson would not have fumbled within the 10 yards line, Vikings would have won and Favre would not have had to gain extra yards at the end of the game.
Other than that, I really like your articles. They are the best in absence of Dr. Z.
Eric, you can’t say that the Vikes would have won without Peterson’s fumble. Hasn’t the back to the future series taught us anything about changing the timeline?
Kevin, it’s not guaranty but it certainly looks that way. Just takethe 3 points of a field goal. Saints would have gotten the ball back at about the same spot (after the fumble) after the kickoff. Saints did not win this game. Vikings lost it by collective effort. A bunch of fumbles, an interception on a play that should have been negated (curtesy of a non call by the refs) a dumb throw in overtime and a discusting pass interference call in OT.
I agree that it was a collective effort towards losing. Favre is slightly more responsible than Berrian but probably less so than Peterson. I do not know what call you are claiming should have negated an int. That pass interference call was not a bad one, it just came at a crucial juncture.
the ball was uncatchable. Maybe by Manute Bol on high heels.
#71 mojo said “Would Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr, Len Dawson, Joe Namath, or Joe Montana run with the ball in that situation? I doubt it.”
I’m not old enough to have seen the first 4 in their prime, but I can say, yes, Joe Montana would’ve run. Or thrown it out of bounds. Or laid on the ground with both hands on the ball.
Here’s my summary of the last Vikings drive:
1) 1st and 2nd down play selection awful.
2) Clock management awful.
3) 12 man huddle after timeout inexcusable
4) Rollout good call if it was to only gain 2-5 yards
5) Rollout bad call if it was to gain 6+ yards with a chance of a turnover.
I’m indifferent to Favre and the Vikings. They could’ve won. They should’ve won. They didn’t win. Joe has a theory as to why they could’ve won. I agree with it only because I ask myself if Joe Montana would’ve done something different on the last drive, and the answer is yes.
@Mike MN
The point is similar to Joe’s article. For all the positive praise that Brett gets, most of the media world forgets that this is a QB that has 1 Super Bowl win, and the above resume. A resume that shows the Super Bowl win was the exception, not the rule, based on his personal output during the playoffs. When his teams lose in the post-season; he usually plays quite the large role.
Glad someone is finally hating on the “great infallible” Favre. It’s about time.
@100,
I wasn’t saying “I told you so.” I was saying, “Man I’m glad Favre screwed over a team I hate, just as much as he screwed over my team for the last couple years before he left.”
I know WHY the Jets and Vikings signed him, and they were right to: he was better than either of their QBs. And of course they had to get behind him once he was their QB (although I know at least one Vikes fan who never fully trusted him). I’m saying that Vikings fans — of all people — should have known what he was gonna do, since he did it over and over again AGAINST them.
After watching him kill the Packers time and again with ill-advised passes and crunch-time INTs, it was finally fun to watch him do it for someone else (especially a hated rival). Hey, I’m a sucker for schadenfreude.
If you look at the replay, you’ll see 10 yards of open space in front of Favre just as he’s about the release the ball.
But you also see, just to his left, Saints player #93 bearing down on him after shedding his blockers. You also see two Saints players, positioned right next to each other right on the 32 yard line, looking directly at Favre. When Favre was about to throw the ball, he was outside the 40-yd line, maybe at the 41 or 42.
To make it a 50 yd FG attempt, Favre had to get to the 32 yard line.
There was no way in God’s green earth he was making it anywhere near the 32. If Favre made it half way to the 32 from where he was, something he possibly could have done, he would have ended up at the 36 or 37 yard line, which would have set up a 54- or 55-yd FG attempt.
Hey, at least they would have had a shot at that point. It’s better than an INT of course. But everybody is saying that Favre would have easily picked up “at least” 6 yards on that play, and that’s simply wrong. Maybe if he was Adrian Peterson, or if the Saints players were replaced by concrete statues. Otherwise, he would have gotten hammered somewhere near the line of scrimmage.
@109.
You got a lot of hate. And yes, I believe you did compare Favre to Hitler. A psychopathic mass murdere and a QB? He’s a 40 year old QB who hasn’t missed a game in 18 years? You HATE that? What is it you really HATE? And yes, Favre is a leader, someone who inspires and getting up over and over again in that game after being repeatedly crushed inspired and willed his team to the position they found themselves in with 19 seconds left. All of your HATE not withstanding.
Favre may or may not have made a bad mistake on that last play. There seems to be disagreement on that.
However, I don’t think anyone can claim a team that gives up the ball on interceptions, fumbles, and really really dumb penalties should expect to win. That game should have been pretty much in the bag for the Vikings by the end of the third quarter. Really ugly.
As a Packer fan who appreciates that he still plays, and at a very high level, I didn’t have too much trouble with the N.O. last minute interception. If you watch the play, he’d be lucky to get back to the line of scrimmage (38 yd line). I’d rather Longwell have a chance at a 55 yard-er than an interception, but if he completes it, then it’s 37 yard-er; if it’s intercepted they go into OT.
Joe,
You have to be kidding!!! Didn’t you see the game? No sacks, but he got hit 15 times!! 15 times!! Some very ugly hits, a couple of which I would not be surprised are classified this week as illegal hits by the League office. 15 hits after 17 games of hits at age 40.
I have watched Brett play since 1992. He has never been beaten up as much as in this game. Up to the last play, he played gallantly and magnificently. He kept getting up ala Rocky.
I am currently reading and enjoying your book on Buck O’Neil… You should stick to Baseball.
It seems as is I’m taking crazy pills when I see how many people are ripping the idea of Favre running in this situation. He’s rolling right and there isn’t a defender close enough to stop him from gaining at least a couple of yards. Isn’t a couple of yards better than no yards? The difference between a FG of 55 yards and 52 or so isn’t much, but I’ll take the 52 yarder. Isn’t running and sliding (or going out of bounds if he had the opportunity) better than forcing a throw, WITH THE SCORE TIED? Point is, Favre didn’t have to force anything at all in this situation and this is the reason why he may be a “gamer,” but doesn’t always have “it.” Give me the smart winners over the risky gamblers.
The Favre mystique is amazing and how many people take the phrases used to describe him as compliments of his ability rather than the back-handed compliments they really are…
He’s a gunslinger…means he doesn’t hesitate to take chances by spraying the ball around. Yeah, he’ll make some good plays, but he’ll make plenty of bad ones too. Give me a surgeon like Peyton Manning any day of the week over a gunslinger…
He’s just having fun out there…means he plays loose and he’s not afraid to make mistakes…which is evident, because he’s made more than any NFL QB EVER! Give me a field general like John Elway (who BTW had plenty of fun too)…
He’s got the stats and he’s a top-10 QB all time because of it…but I could easily name 10-20 QBs that I would rather trust with the ball at the end of the game than Favre, and I think that says it all.
#129. I think people agree that the INT was the worst outcome there. People agree that gaining anywhere from 0-10 yards on that play was better than an INT. People agree that even if he gained 0, Longwell could possibly have hit a 56 yard FG to win the game.
What I don’t agree with is the assumption by most people in the media that Favre could “easily” have gained the 6 yards needed to make it a 50-yd FG.
I quote Posnanski above “It sure looked like there were 5 or 6-yards there for the taking even for a sluggish 40-year-old quarterback who had been beat up during the game.”
No way he was getting to the 32 or 33 yard line there. Maybe he could have advanced 5 or 6 yards from where he was when he threw the ball, which was around the 41-42 yard line. But, those yards weren’t simply “for the taking”.
I agree if he had made it to the 36 yard line, making it a 54 yard FG, that would have been much, much better than the FG. But he most definitely wasn’t going to make it to the 32. Those easy yards were an illusion.
As the Sabermetricians say, don’t believe your eyes.
The NFL overtime rules are a joke. If the Vikes win the toss, this isn’t even a story.
@130
“Give me a surgeon like Peyton Manning any day of the week over a gunslinger…”
Career Touchdown to Int. rate
Manning: 2:1
Favre: 1.6:1
Interceptions per season as a starter
Manning: 15
Favre: 17.6
Not much of a difference. And when you take into account, that Manning has started at least half of his career regular season games in a climate controlled dome and is six years younger….
Thomas @123 — I can’t blame you for laughing at us; I did for years when Favre threw backbreaking interceptions for Green Bay. In fact, I predicted this is precisely how the season would end for us when the Vikes signed him up — as did many Vikings fans. So it wasn’t a shock to all of us.
You know what’s really funny, though? Your new qb did the same thing to you this year with that ridiculous pass/kick to Dansby! I laugh every time I watch the replay — it truly is hilarious. Wouldn’t it be funny if Rodgers has the same problem Brett does? I mean, he’s one for one in throwing interceptions to lose playoff games in his career already!
In the end, my joy at Favre leaving Green Bay and exposing Green Bay fans who formerly worshipped him as the total hypocrites I always suspected they were when they turned on him in about two seconds, combined with watching him hammer you twice this year, will keep me warm at night.
Dave E.,
Fair enough.
Though I’m not sure where that jab about being hypocrites came from. We loved him, he left (and ended up on a rival), we turned on him. Name me a fanbase in any sport that wouldn’t have done the same thing.
At 133, there is a big difference between a 2:1 td to int ratio and 1.6:1. Essentially, Manning is 25% better in that department. Do you think 25% is a big deal over a lengthy career? I certainly do.
Also, you forgot the part where Aaron Rodgers having his helmet pulled down while he attempted to throw the ball is completely different from Favre rolling right and throwing left.
It seems to me that when Favre is on your team you are going only as far as he will take you, for better or worse.
Mark Daniel:
sabermetricians don’t say “don’t believe your eyes.” They say “don’t believe your eyes when the statistics prove your eyes are wrong.” Supply some numbers to prove your point, then we’ll talk.
Schadenfreude-taking joy in the misfortune of others, often those whom you despise. It’s a very human emotion, and only a culture as twisted as Germany could come up with the word.
Felt that way about Favre. Despite all the feel good happytalk about what a great historic wonderful QB and human being we were getting from the press, in your bones you KNEW at some point the guy we saw last December with the Jets was going to show up to shat the bed. He’s a selfish bastard, he’s a bad teammate, a coach and cap killer. And I’m weary of every reporter with a laptop trying to write The Next Epic Story About The Great Hero QB telling us this hooey about what a great guy he is. A great QB making $13 million gets the Jets in the playoffs at 8-3 down the stretch in 2008. And he not only didn’t do that, he refused to take himself out for his precious streak and played injured and without a conscience. I’m not a big fan of Boomer Esiason but to his credit he remains to only media guy to say that.
That guy from last December and before showed up Sunday, as anyone who’s watched him the last few seasons could tell you he would. The only people who could feign surprise are his media sycophants (hi, there, Peter King!)and Vikings fans who
wanted to believe. The later, I feel for, like this guy-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PUAgITZfq0&feature=player_embedded
@133
“Give me a surgeon like Peyton Manning any day of the week over a gunslinger…”
“Career Touchdown to Int. rate
Manning: 2:1
Favre: 1.6:1
Interceptions per season as a starter
Manning: 15
Favre: 17.6
Not much of a difference. And when you take into account, that Manning has started at least half of his career regular season games in a climate controlled dome and is six years younger….”
The point that got lost here is that Peyton is never called a gunslinger, but is often called a surgeon…namely because he rarely takes the reckless chances that Favre does. That doesn’t mean he’s any less of a “gamer” or that he’s having any “less fun” out there than Favre or more importantly, that he can’t lead his team to victory in close games. It simply means that he doesn’t feel the need to take reckless chances when there are not only safer but also better options available, something that Favre has done repeatedly in big games over the past decade. But lets take a closer look at the stats you provided…
As an earlier poster mentioned, the difference between a 2:1 TD:INT ratio and a 1.6:1 ratio is quite large…that’s 40 more TDs for every 100 picks.
Not sure the 6 years younger is relevant with regard to Favre…from the ages of 28-32 (by most accounts the prime of a QB’s career), Manning threw 55 picks, Favre 93. Heck, take Favre’s best 5-yr stretch (age 25-29) and he threw 79.
And for the effect of climate, well, wouldn’t you know that the current CAREER leader in TD/INT is Aaron Rodgers!!!! And some of the other QBs with very good INT% numbers are outdoor, northern exposure QBs (Brady, McNabb, etc).
Did the Royals sign anybody today?
ok, I think I’m getting how this works now (and thanks, Neutral Mitch back at #91).
Mention Farve and the switch gets flicked. I suspect if the question asked was “is Brett Farve quite tall” the same comments as above would be posted. Irrelevant to the actual question but if you ring the bell the dogs will salivate.
I can sense that Farve has a reputation that a lot of people think is undeserved. Joe, a more interesting* article would be an analysis of what reputation he does deserve based upon a cool headed analysis of the stats and whatever else is used in nfl judgements (bring in those intangibles). My guess is that at the end of the day the one word summary would be “inefficient”.
* and when I say interesting I also mean better. Joe this article was fine for the reading, but I felt when I finished it that I’d been sort of manipulated. There was a lot of inuendo here that leaves a grubby feeling. Not one of your best. So please put something new up.
My favorite Howard Zinn quote:
“With such continuing malaise, it is very important for the Establishment–that uneasy club of business executives, generals, and politicos–to maintain the historic pretension of national unity, in which the government represents all the people, and the common enemy is overseas, not at home, where disasters of economics or war are unfortunate errors or tragic accidents, to be corrected by the same club that brought the disasters.”
Zac @139: I did supply numbers. Check post #124.
But I’ll go through it again. Here’s a number: 93. That’s the jersey number of the defensive lineman that was bearing down on Farvre from 2 or 3 yards away, just as Favre was about to pass.
Here’s another: 32. That’s the spot on the field Favre had to reach to make it a 50 yd FG attempt. It’s also the place that everybody says he should have “easily” gotten to if he had only run the ball. It’s also the place where TWO Saints defenders were standing watching Favre.
Here’s a 3rd number: 42. That’s the spot on the field Favre was standing when he started to throw the ball.
Here’s a 4th number: 10. That’s the number of yards Favre would have had to go to make it to the 32 had he decided to run the ball.
Here’s a 5th number: 3. That’s the minimum number of Saints players who would have stopped Favre well before he reached the 32 (#93 and the two players standing on the 32).
Here’s a 6th number: 0. That’s the number of Vikings players who were standing between Favre and these three defenders.
I have more than numbers, though, I have pictures. If I could post it here, I’d post the screen shot showing everything I outlined above.
I’m sorry I offended the sabermetricians. The ‘don’t believe your eyes’ comment was meant to convey that when you look at the replay of Favre’s final pass, it does look like he has a bunch of easy yards in front of him. But, if you look closer and analyze the situation, just like sabermetricians do with baseball players, you’ll see that those “easy” yards were not easy at all.
That’s all I was saying.
I say we should get rid of Favre and come back next year with T-Jack.
I think in some ways Favre ended up in green bay like people think, and get made fun of for, of McNabb in Philly. We think he’s a good quarterback.But we dont think he’ll win here. He has a history of starting off big games slowly. He’s never carried them in the later playoff games.
Where the point deviates is that I think he could win elsewhere. I like him. I think Andy Reid gets reliant on him ( i think if Reid had a young QB he would design more running plays for example). I think if mcnabb went to minn this year and won i would be happy for him (as long as it wasnt agains the eagles obviously).
What i mean is I appreaciated his time here but ive moved on. Not sure why that doesnt work in Green Bay.
Before the 12 men in the huddle call, Favre was calling timeout. That would have been their last timeout, and with 19 seconds left it forces them into a sideline pass only.
It is odd. The last two seasons Favre did fold at the end, and seemed to get a pass.
Now he is getting lambasted for a play that never should have happened.
In 2007, he threw a ridiculous interception to end the Packer’s season. It was on the second play of overtime, a no pressure play and ridiculous attempt. Very little has been said about it, other than the announcers lamenting that his “last pass” would be a devastating play.
In 2008 Favre had a horrible finish, as the Jets lost 4 of their last 5 games to tumble to 9-7 after an 8-3 start and miss the playoffs . He had 2 touchdowns and 9 interceptions in that stretch.
This year however, he was put in a bad situation-and bad things happened.
Minnesota turned the ball over 5 times on the road, 4 before the last INT. I don’t know what teams winning percentages are with even 4 road turnovers, but I can bet that it is very low-even lower in the post season. Beyond even the # of turnovers, 2 of them (at the very least) took points of the board)
The final sequence leading up to the play was laughable. First they decided to let their entire season rest on a 51 yard field goal. They quite simply quit playing and got scared. If they had kept pressing for one more first down of a much higher percentage 40 yarder, we would not be talking about this. Instead of staying aggressive, they ran two half hearted running plays for no gain, and then had the bone headed 12 men in the huddle play. Football punishes the spineless, and they got what they deserved.
To exacerbate the situation, they called the ridiculous roll out play on third and 15, when everyone watching knew that they were going to throw. They cut off half the field, and the Saints flowed with Favre. (who did not really have that much running room-he might have made it to the 37.) Faced with a desperate situation, Favre did what we have always lauded him for- he tried to make a throw that most QB’s would not. It failed.
But the endgame coaching for the Vikings would have ended this drive in failure 99.9% of the time with any quarterback.
Brad Childress, with the Super Bowl in reach, had his sphincter tighten up and his bladder loosen.
At the point where Favre threw the pass we are looking at a 57-58 yard field goal. So he runs forward, gets a few more yards, maybe makes it a 53 yarder. Isn’t that a better chance than a throw followed by a 48 yarder?
The reason people talk more about the last play is quite simple: It was the last play.
True: Minnesota had enought turnovers to lose the game.
True: Brad Childress is an awful head coach who should not be employed in that capacity in the NFL.
True: The HC horribly botched the final drive of regulation.
All of it is absolutley true, and should not be dismissed. However, Favre could have erased all of it, if he hadn’t thrown the pick. If he gained 0 yardas, it’s a better play. If he throws it away, that’s a better play. If he gains any type of yardage at all, that’s a better play.
If he was hurt and couldn’t run, he should have said so to the coach, so as to NOT CALL a rollout on that play. If he’s too hurt to play, he should not have been in the game.
But the ego that allowed him to become a semi-great QB is the same ego that makes him not want to come out of the game, and makes him attempt throws that few QBs would dare… because they’re awful ideas.
i have watched many football games, and this is a older wiser quaterback. The problem is running earlier is career they get followed out of bounds and hit after across the sideline. So the learing of new ideas start, also a qb succeding to run for good yards gained makes the defense pursue him more, on a painful hit.
The topic, and the mentions of Montana, remind me of one of the most impressive football stats I know:
Joe Montana: 4 Super Bowls, 0 interceptions.
Trivia: Who is the only other quarterback who started multiple Super Bowls and never threw a Super Bowl interception?
>Trivia
Okay, I give up. Who?
Maybe why Brett didn’t run? Ouch…
http://tinyurl.com/ybzw6xd
Its via the clarion ledger in Jackson, MS but the URL by itself is kind of unwieldy…
I freeze framed the passing moment. The nearest Saint to Favre was about eight yards upfield and about four yards towards the middle of the field, a safety looking to jump a passing lane. That’s nine yards away with Favre having an angle. Favre was running at near full speed to his right, the safety was mostly sitting there watching. If Favre had taken off and run for it, angling at about 45 degrees towards his right, he would have run seven yards and gained five yards, and the safety would have had to run over nine yards in that time, before first contact. Given their relative positions, angles, and momentum, and age and speed, I think that’s about right. The hit would have been largely from Favre’s left. No other Saint appeared able to reach Favre in time. And, let me repeat, it was a safety, not one of those big bulls on the line. If Favre had run straight up field, after five yards the Saint would only have had to cover five yards to hit Favre, so I’m pretty sure Favre would have gone for the angle.
To me, Favre passed up a sure five with some chance for six to eight yards depending on the hit, forward progress, etc. Favre probably could have faked the throw to his left and then started running, and maybe gained enough extra room to gain eight yards and then sliding without being hit at all. If there was a hit, it would have come in on Favre’s left, both avoiding Favre’s throwing arm and avoiding the ball (held in Favre’s right hand) so the chance of a throw-affecting hit and a fumble was reduced. So I have no excuse for that. At the moment of will, when Favre had to accept a hit to put his team in position to go back to the Super Bowl, Favre could not pull the switch for one more tackle. I blame Favre.