Depressing Yankee Story of the Day
Posted: December 22nd, 2009 | Filed under: Baseball | 102 Comments »
So, now the New York Yankees traded for Javier Vazquez. Well, why not? Heck, the guy will made $23 million the next two years $11.5 million next year. He only only has one year left on his deal. Well, hey, somebody’s got to pay him that money.
Vazquez, you will recall, was the guy our good friend Keith Law put on his Cy Young ballot. Lost in the uproar, I thought, was the fact that Vazquez had a GREAT season. He was 15-10 with a 2.87 ERA, and he was:
– 3rd in WHIP.
– 4th in Walks per 9.
– 2nd in strikeouts.
– 2nd in strikeout/walk ratio.
– 6th in ERA.
– 5th in innings pitched.
I don’t know that I would have put him on my ballot, but it would have been close. He had one hell of a season.
So what, right? The Yankees get another star. Big deal. Well, there are a couple of things in the New York Daily News story linked above that make this kind of depressing.
1. There’s a poll that goes along with the story that asks readers if they liked the trade. The answers are as follows:
– Yes. He’s the perfect No. 4 for the rotation.
– No. Ben Sheets would have been better.
– He’s a good pitcher, but I wish they would have kept Melky.
Sigh. The Yankees traded for Vazquez to be their NUMBER FOUR starter.
And the Royals signed Jason Kendall to be their starting catcher.
2. There’s a sentence in the story: “Cabrera’s departure leaves the Yankees with a gaping hole in left field, potentially reopening the door for a return by free agent outfielder Johnny Damon.”
Yes, the words “gaping hole” are in a Yankees story. You know what “gaping hole” means in New York Yankees language? That’s right: “We’d like to welcome Matt Holliday/Jason Bay/Johnny Damon into the Yankees family.”
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I think I might just hang myself right now. I thought Granderson was a steal but this is just insane. Melky’s a 4th outfielder at best and this guys a solid 1-2 starter, ugh.
Alternate headline: “Scott Boras Wakes Up to Find Wet Dream a Reality”
Circle me Mission 28
How many days until the 106+ win Yankees face some vastly inferior team in the best of 5 Division series? Because game 1 of that series’ll be the only real drama of the year and Selig’s only hope for the veil of parity.
The only silver lining here is that Vazquez’s “big-stage” credentials have long been questioned. In fact, you may recall his previous tenure with the Yankees – one season, 2004 – in which he went 14-10 (respectable) with a 4.91 ERA (92 ERA+ – pretty meh).
For that matter, here are Vazquez’s last six years of ERA+:
2004, NYY: 92
2005, ARI: 100
2006, CHW: 98
2007, CHW: 126
2008, CHW: 98
2009, ATL: 143
In other words, he’s probably due for mediocrity this season anyway, although not being asked to be the #1 or #2 guy might ease some of the pressure he supposedly struggles under when in big markets (if you even buy into that theory).
Let’s face it: the guy has now been traded FIVE times. Every team that has owned his rights has ended up trading him, three of them after a single season. He can’t be *that* good, can he?
The Yankees are finally doing the rest of baseball a favor. By making the Major Leagues a totally lopsided entity, they are forcing the hand of the people in control of baseball. Either initiate some real parity, or suffer the consequences. Anyone remember the USFL?
Do Yankee fans really not get this? Are they so engrained with getting every free agent they live in there own overprivileged bubble? If enough people vote for “Ben Sheets would have been better” they will probably go and get him too. It’s so far beyond, it’s just laughable at this point.
Trust the Process.
He’ll be their #4 starter in name only. He’s their 2nd best SP.
As a Yankees fan, I agree that it’s a great move. Heck, I’m also a Bills fan, so these kinds of things keep me from getting too depressed over the long winters here in Western PA…. That said, the Yanks are getting absolutely scary now that they’ve finally combined some baseball intelligence with their truckloads of money. But, this can’t last forever can it? These things are cyclical, right?
You know what I have always wondered? Considering the Yankees just outspend everybody else, what the heck were they doing in the 80’s?
During my single digits decade, the Yankees had tradition and all that, but actually they were not that good at all. Don Mattingly is all I can remember and he never won jack. Why is their spending all the rage (seemingly successful I might add) now…but it wasn’t always like that or?
I know it’s not really the point of the post, but I agree with BigFlax. Vazquez has had the definition of an up-and-down career, and having to face AL East hitters doesn’t appear to bode well for him…
But yea, that poll just makes me angry.
Yankee fans get it, Tampa Mike, but I’d say two things:
First, this is a steal. This isn’t buying a FA for 8 years, it’s a short, cheap contract on a guy with great peripherals. It’s the kind of contract any number of teams might have (and should have) picked up, so I don’t really feel bad about this one.
Second, and this is key, we don’t care. Without getting into discussions about the nature of New Yorkers, this move is legal and smart. Until it’s not, we expect this move to be made.
I think it’s important to understand that there’s nothing evil about this — is it a Prisoner’s Dilemma in which *someone* needs to watch out for the good of the game? Absolutely. Is that someone a fan or a Steinbrenner? Absolutely not. Do I, as a fan, feel any particular shame about the fact that Vasquez is our #4? Not an ounce.
What’s laughable is expecting fans or owners to restrain themselves in the name of the larger good. If there’s a job to be done, it’s not Cashman’s job to do it.
Henry,
You said it, this move is legal and smart until it’s not, which, hopefully will be sooner than later.
Until that day I’ll read JoPo posts about old pitchers and not buy another ticket (or for that matter the daily news, new york post, and I’m writing Time Warner to tell them to stop giving the YES Network any of my money).
Boycott.
I thought all that was left on Vazquez’ contract was one year and $11.5 million?
The majority of posters on comments section of the NYPost article that broke this story were along the lines of:
“What is Cashman doing? We have now lost our two best clutch hitters in Matsui and Melky!”
Yeah…
Don’t worry Joe, neither of those three (Damon, Bay, Holliday) will end up on the Yankees unless they literally get no other offers. Cashman doesn’t want to dole out those contracts this year despite what a lot of these commenters might think. Cashman seems to be stealing these guys this year. I don’t know how he does it but, as a Yankees fan, I’m not exactly going to complain. I really believe him though when he says he is trying to position the team to be ready for the 2011 free-agent market. If you look at the “low-cost” one-year contracts he’s acquiring like Nick Johnson and the trade for Vazquez, Cash is dealing for people who will fill a need this year and leave room next year on both the roster and the payroll to maybe do some damage and bring back Jeter/Rivera.
The Yankees acquire a 32 year old guy who they ran out of town after 2004 but who was great last year in the National League.
Seems to me this has the makings to be one of those ‘mistakes the big market clubs can make’ moves.
no one has mentioned that this vizcaino fellow was the yankees’ best pitching prospect according to BP. i know the braves are traditionally not good at identifying pitching talent, so this has all the makings of a yankees’ theft.
I’m simultaneously laughing and shaking my head that this is a “short, cheap” contract for the Yankees.
The luxury tax has collected $191 million since the last CBA. The Yankees have contributed $174 million of that.
And baseball’s collective heads are in the sand again.
I’m not 100 percent sure about this (I’d say I’m about 95 percent sure), but I think that Vazquez is the only pitcher to win at least 10 games every year of this decade, from 2000 through 2009. I know wins aren’t much of a stat, but it says at least a little something about his consistency and his ability not to lose seasons to injury. To me, that’s the perfect formula for a middle-of-the-rotation guy. He probably won’t be as good as he was last year, but he probably won’t be terrible or hurt, either.
There were three pitchers who came into 2009 with a chance to win 10 games in every year of the decade, but Mike Mussina (who won 10 every year from 1992 to 2008) retired and Livan Hernandez finally got old, winning nine games with two teams.
If I got this stat wrong, feel free to correct me. Cheers.
You gotta love Yankee fan triumphalism. Oh wait, no you don’t….
I don’t think anyone thought the Yankees were really going to go with Melky-Gardner in LF anyway, so the hole was already there. (Unless Nick Johnson has learned to play LF this off-season.)
I think he is a free agent at the end of 2010, so he’ll be a Type A free agent.
With four starters signed for 2010, it’s time to start the annual “should Joba be a starter or reliever?” debate.
I love you, but you’re starting to regularly sound like a hayseed.
Baseball is my favorite sport but I’m really beginning to despise MLB. That hurts but damn this is ridiculous. If they sign Matt Holliday I’ll just spend my summers watching the St. Paul Saints. Done.
@11, why didn’t the Yankees dominate the 80s as well?
Dumber front-office.
More meddling from ownership.
Not nearly as much cable revenue or luxury seating revenue.
Sure they had a revenue edge in the 80s but nothing like what they have now.
What makes me upset isn’t that the Yankees got another great player, but rather that this is a trade that half (if not all) the other MLB teams could have made. If Houston could afford $15 million for Lyon, don’t you think they could have paid Vazquez? Vazquez isn’t making huge money, and the Yankees actually gave up some pretty good players to get him.
Yes, the rich just got richer, but it wasn’t just because they have a lot of money, it was because they also have a good front office.
Sure other teams could’ve done it. But the move comes with risk and moving your #1 pitching prospect for 1 year of a risky 2/3 type starter isn’t a smart move for most franchises. If it blows up for the Yankees it just doesn’t matter. If it blows up for the Astros it matters.
As a Braves fan, I am absolutely shocked. Vazquez had a great season. He was perfect for us. And if we were going to get rid of him, we needed a power bat. Melky Cabrera? Really? Maybe he’ll explode in the NL. But I’m hugely disappointed with this.
Imagine if Cheng Ming Wang ever comes back somewhat close to what he was before…. Vazquez then becomes the number five starter and Joba goes to the pen.
It’s actually a bit refreshing to hear Henry’s (13) perspective, rather than the typical “your team’s owner could spend his money too” drivel. I don’t blame any Yankee fan for having Henry’s attitude. JayT(27), maybe in a vaccuum any team could make this trade. But again the Yankees’ money is at least indirectly part of the process. Prospects are merely bargaining chips for the Yankees, who will find a way ($$) to replace them in some manner or another when the major league team has a hole to fill. Mid and small market teams rely on prospects to build competitive teams at low prices and therefore cannot trade them at a moment’s notice for a veteran on a one year contract. Again, this is not to say that there aren’t other teams that could have made the trade, just that there still is an advantage to having the cash even when it isn’t directly involved.
@jjskck
Derek Lowe 3 yrs 15 million per = “long, expensive”
Javy Vazquez 1 yr 11.5 mill per = “short, cheap”
It’s all relative.
Cashman is having a great off season, but nobody wants to give him credit. If your team used their farm system to make the trades Cashman has made, while also signing a .400+ OBP guy for 5.5 mill, they’d be a front runner for Executive of the year along with Mr. Z in Seattle.
When I heard about the trade, the first thing I thought was to check Joe. Just one small point to chime in: when it was reported a couple weeks ago that the Yankees were planning to cut payroll (from about $200m to $180m), my gut response was anger, which can be summed up in this way: For what they’re charging us, they have the nerve to cut payroll? My point is, Yankee fans may feel “entitled”, but they (we) are also paying the highest ticket prices in the sport to see our team.
@#11 and #26- “Why didn’t the Yankees dominate the 80’s too?”
While they didn’t dominate with World Championships (which I guess is all that matters), they won more games in the 80’s than any team in MLB.
Top five teams most games won during the 1980’s N.Y. YANKEES 854, Detroit Tigers 839, Kansas City Royals 826, St. Louis Cardinals 825 and Los Angles Dodgers 825
From ESPN: “Vazquez, 33, joins a pitching rotation that includes CC Sabathia, A.J. Burnett and Andy Pettitte. The Yankees’ top four starters will combine for $64 million in payroll — more than four teams paid their entire rosters last season.”
As an A’s fan, and one of those 4 teams, this makes me cry.
That’s a shame about payrolls. Every team will get a minimum of $70 mil in revenue sharing. The fact that they are not required to spend that on their roster is mind- boggling. MLB needs to mandate that those monies be put into team payrolls.
@#35 -”Yankees top 4 starters will combine for $64 million in payroll”
it’s actually only $62.5 million. Stop exaggerating.
The Yankees will be paying a luxury tax over 27M bucks in January for their 2009 payroll overload. Did I read it correctly that no other team is required to pay any luxury tax this cycle? So, how does this 27M get distributed? Do the Red Sox get as much as the Padres, Royals and Pirates? Just curious…
Touche, #34.
I guess when I think of the 80s Yankees teams I think of the post-Reggie Yankees that never won a division title, although the 1985 team certainly was a playoff-caliber team.
Speaking as White Sox fan; Vazquez is very stat-friendly, and ostensibly “unlucky” with ERA, but I think he’s a Cy Young/HoF pitcher in the NL and just an okay starter in the AL, granted he’s still better than Burnett and probably about the same as Pettitte with more IP and K’s. Looking at his tremendous run down the stretch in 2008 is wonderful (though he was great up until mid June I believe). If we had gotten to Game 5 in the ALDS he would most assuredly have lost it, so I sort of waved that season off. The White Sox rotation is still better than the Yankees, but not as much as before :’( Vazquez is very valuable simply because he’s an innings eater and supposedly if he stops being unlucky in the AL he’d be an All Star. If he just stayed in the NL for 10 years and racked up another 2000 K’s and a few Cy Youngs he’d be in much better shape though. The new Don Sutton.
Vazquez may be an expensive #4 starter for the Yankees, but who is going to be their backup catcher? Huh? What about middle-inning mopup guy? Or left-handed pinch hitter? The Yanks aren’t without their holes people.
I think he’s a modern day Ed Whitson.
Henry – I completely agree with you. I think something needs to be done about spending for the sake of the game, but it isn’t up to the Steinbrenners to do it. A lot of the comments I see around the internet make me wonder sometimes if Yankee fans truly realize what a unique situation they are in, and you seem to.
This??? This move is getting panned??
The Yankees gave up a prospect in Arodys Vizcaino with an insanely high upside, Ace upside. They gave up their starter CF from last year’s World Series championship team. They got a player that just about any other contender should be able to find room to afford, especially on a one year deal.
And somehow, this demonstrates the yanks are evil?
Is it that different than then M’s acquiring Lee for 9mm for 1 year, when you factor in the savings of Melky’s 3-4mm salary?
They traded for a CF with 15mm or so coming to him over 2 years and signed a 5.5mm DH. They traded for a SP with 11.5mm coming over 1 year (at best, market rate, probably below market rate). And there’s something wrong with this??
I get why people complain about the yankees (even though their anger should be directed at corporate owners who wouldn’t know a baseball if it smacked them in the face), but these moves shouldn’t be getting people upset.
By the way, have fun with a salary floor causing mediocre veterans’ salaries to jump 300% and teams signing them just to meet the minimum.
Damn those Yankees, winning literally every single World Serious, not leaving any for the poor Red Sox, Phillies, Cardinals, White Sox, Marlins, Angels, or Diamondbacks!
What Glen L said. As a Braves fan, I’m not wild about this deal, but the upside is Arodys Vizcaino, not Melky Cabrera (who himself at least fills a hole in a *terrible* outfield). If this turns into Doyle Alexander for John Smoltz version 2, I hope the first 43 commenters will remember to hang their heads in shame 5-10 years from now.
What other team can afford to deal a high upside minor league pitcher (because they know if they have a hole in the future, they can fill it by buying a player), and acquire a guy making $11.5MM per year to be their fourth starter (though I think he could be their 2nd best)?
Most teams can’t trade their prospects this way, as they need to keep them to fill holes when guys leave (either for degrading performance or free agency). The Yankees appear to be able to do that.
I’m not sure this is being ripped for lack of value, but for the fact that the Yankees can afford to do this (on more than 1 front), and most other teams can’t.
And, many of us aren’t ripping the Yankees, they aren’t at fault here. Baseball, otoh, they are at fault for not addressing issues with the the game (asking a bunch of 60 year old+ fans and managers how to fix the game – that’s their great idea-ask old people resistant to change that love the game – ask them if/how to fix the game?).
Come on, Joe. I realize that there’s a disparity between the Yanks and the Royals, and it must be frustrating being a Royals fan, but this really was a fair trade for both parties. Melky is a lot better than people think, and he’s only 25 and still developing as a player. Arodys Vizcaino is going to be a superstud prospect next year. And Mike Dunn is no slouch either – LHPs that top 97 mph don’t grow on trees. The Yanks gave a better package for Vazquez than the Mariners did for Cliff Lee, and I don’t see any complaints about that deal. If anything, this was the most win-win, balanced deal of the offseason so far.
Just my 2¢.
Glen L,
It’s not that the move was a shrewd move that any team could reasonably make. many posters have mentioned it previously. The Yankees can give up high ceiling/high level prospects much easier than other teams because they can simply buy almost any free agent they want. Mid-small market teams rely on their prospects for most of their success, so it is an extreme risk for them to trade a top prospect for 1 year of a very good player.
Darren,
No one that laments yet another transaction portraying the horrendous financial structure of baseball would “hang their head in shame” if this trade ends up resembling the Alexander/Smoltz deal of 1987. Why would they? Why should they?
leutbneot,
You missed Joe’s and 40+ other posters points. It’s not an unfair trade. It’s not an illegal trade. It’s a trade indicative of the ridiculous financial structure of baseball.
It wasn’t difficult.
“Rich get richer” and all, but we all know that this trade happened because the Braves gave Derek Lowe a terrible deal. This isn’t “poor Atlanta”, this is “stupid Atlanta”.
What is the problem with Javier Vasquez that makes teams trade him so quickly? He lasted one year with the Yankees (first time), one with the D-backs, and now one with the Braves. Three years with the White Sox, but his only decent year was in ‘07, when the team plummeted to 72-90. By the end of ‘08, Ozzie was totally fed up with him. Does the pressure of being with a contending team get to him? Can he be effective only with mediocre-to-poor teams? If only the Expos were still around, he could go back there.
Well, the good news is for Red Sox fans since as the Yankees keep stocking up the pressure rises for the Sox to land big names like Lackey (and now perhaps more more more) and thereby coming as close as you can to clinching the wild card spot before the year starts (and who knows, maybe pulling the divisional upset).
The bad news is for every other AL teams’ fans. No silver lining to this spend-a-thon for anybody else.
I’m an O’s fan and being in the AL East, there is literally no point to follow the team with the hope of a championship.
Jimbo in post #40 has a good point: Vasquez piled up last year’s great numbers in the NL. During the prior 5 seasons, he had an ERA+ over 100 just once (2007). Instead of pitching against the Nats and Marlins he will now pitch against the Red Sox and Rays.
I predict his ERA+ is no better than 105 next year.
“I predict his ERA+ is no better than 105 next year.”
…which would make him a pretty valuable pitcher at around a 105 era+ and 200 innings. You wouldn’t take that?
Being an O’s fan sucks. I’m with Brad, we have no hope of a championship since the two most wild free spenders are in our division. What’s worse is that the team finally seems to be getting good, yet we know they likely won’t win squat.
Luckily, I get my baseball championship fix by rooting for LSU. Six titles in 19 years! Suck it, Yankee fans, with your mere 5 titles in the same time frame. And we don’t need a warped financial structure to do it.
I detest the Yankees as much as the next person, but find many of the comments that only the Yankees could risk a trade for Vazquez at $11.5M/1 to be more than a little over-the-top.
In exchange for Vazquez and Logan, the Yankees gave up at most a league-average outfielder, an overpowering but wild AAA reliever, and a kid who looked really good in rookie ball.
And folks forget that, in his prior one-year stint in the Bronx, Vazquez started off en fuego but pitched with a bum shoulder in the second half. That is a far cry from saying that he choked as a Yankee.
“And the Royals signed Jason Kendall to be their starting catcher.”
As Joe has mentioned on countless occasions, the Royals roster moves under Dayton Moore have little or nothing to do with the Yankee payroll.
The Yanks have always been polarizing figures in sport. The fact that they attempt, to the best of their ability, to buy championships is nothing new. The Babe Ruth thing comes to mind…It can be viewed by those in their fan base as a noble enterprise. Why shouldn’t they outspend when they can? When we’ve reached a point where only one team contributes to the payroll tax, the system simply needs to be examined for what it is.
Since 1995, the New York Yankees have been first or second in payroll every year. The Blue Jays topped them in ‘95, the Orioles in ‘98. Barely. For a point of reference, let’s examine what happened before the strike. We’ll look at the Yanks and the Royals, with each team’s salary in millions, and their ranking in MLB aside:
1994: KC: 40.5 (4); NYY: 44.8 (1)
1993: KC: 40.1 (4); NYY: 41.3 (3)
1992: KC: 33.6 (7); NYY: 36.0 (6)
1991: KC: 28.7(7); NYY: 27.8 (8)
1990: KC: 23.9 (1); NYY: 21.0 (5)
1989: KC: 15.4 (9); NYY: 20.6 (2)
1988: KC: 11.6 (13); NYY: 18.9 (1)
So we see that only a generation ago, the Yankees were certainly spending a great deal of money in comparison to their counterparts, but so were the Royals. Both teams had a reasonable expectation to win on a consistent basis. Both teams had talent. The rules by which the owners and players had previously consented are too lengthy to mention here, but there was a much greater ability of teams in smaller markets to retain their talent. This fact is indisputable.
The Royals are now historically bad, and it took significant ineptitude, miscalculation and stubborn refusal to acknowledge relevant statistical data to get to where they are now. It takes the focus and skill of a monkey throwing darts at a draft board to build the bucketful of sludge we call our hometown baseball team. Random decision making would yield better statistical results. That’s not the point here. The Yankees, under the current arrangement, should be better.
The miscalculations of the other large-market owners in their ability to keep up with the Yanks is unfortunate, but again, we get what we pay for. The World Series participant with the higher payroll has won 10 of the 15 Series since the strike. In only one case, 2003, when the Marlins beat the Yanks, was the payroll difference statistically relevant. Then again, the Marlins had better pitching…
If I were a Yanks fan, I’d be a short-tempered and hyper-critical hothead too. The fact that they’ve only managed to win one third of the World Series since the strike speaks volumes of the actual level of incompetence seeping from their front office. And come on, now…they haven’t even managed to win a quarter of all the World Series played. What a joke…
I’ve been saying for several years now that Vazquez will be the first 3,000 strikeout pitcher to finish his career with a losing record. If he sticks in NY for more than a season this time it may ruin my prediction.
He gets less out of more than about any pitcher I’ve seen (excluding last year). How someone with that strikeout-to-walk ratio (which is Schilling and Fergie Jenkins good) can be a barely better than .500 pitcher is beyond me.
I really don’t see what’s so remarkable about this deal. A contending team traded prospects for a top pitcher in a (relatively mild) salary dump. Teams have been doing this for years. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn’t (see, Kazmir/Zambrano). Obviously the Royals can’t do this because they’re so far from contention. But the Mets could do this. The Phillies and Mariners already did it this offseason. Where is the flaw in the system here?
#63 –
It’s not that it’s cheating, most of us are just frustrated with the fact that the Yankees are going into next year fielding a team with hardly any homegrown players and have just stolen both Curtis Granderson and Javier Vasquez, 2 exceptional ball players and they never gave up either of their best young players (Huges and Joba). The Braves got screwed on this deal which is what I’m most annoyed about.
Not hating on the Yankees here. They’re doing exactly what a well-run, voraciously competitive, and very rich sports franchise should do. Unfortunately, when you combine them with the Red Sox, you almost always know at least half of the AL playoff participants every year. (With the exception of the Rays in 2008. Really, the exception that proves the rule.) They are playing a game that almost all the other teams are not familiar with.
“It’s not that it’s cheating, most of us are just frustrated with the fact that the Yankees are going into next year fielding a team with hardly any homegrown players”
I didn’t realize that Jeter, Posada, Pettitte, Cano, Rivera and our “best young players” of Joba and Hughes weren’t homegrown. My mistake.
#11,
The reason the Yankees didn’t totally dominate in the 80’s was the Steinbrenner went along with the collusion and didn’t bid on any free agents. Then he made dumb trade like Fred Mcgriff, Willie Magee, and Jay Buhner.
By the time collusion was over the team was a mess.
I’m not sure I understand how the Yankees are the only team able to ’steal’ players away from other teams. Cashman made a great move last year with Swisher, has been interested in Granderson for months and has been linked to Vazquez for a while as well. Just about any team could of had any of those 3. The Angels were in on Vazquez earlier this year, the Braves wanted a major-league bat which the Angels did not have.
Vazquez was a salary dump, the Yankees went after him instead of Lee because of the price tag attached both in dollars and prospect value.
All that said, it would seem that after this year a salary cap will be brought into the discussion. In the mean time the Yankees and their fans are going to enjoy back to back championships. And once that salary cap does come into place it will be a new ball game.
Ya know, it annoys me that people are complaining here. I think it’s fine to complain when the Yankees signed Sabathia, Burnett, and Teixeira last season, since that at least went along with the point of “Yankees sign all the free agents”. Now the Yankees are making trades and THAT isn’t good enough either? So I guess you guys believe the Yankees should not do anything at all and just stop making moves entirely. Because Yankees spending = bad, Yankees trading = bad…
I know this was partly a salary dump, but we’re talking about roughly 8 million dollars here (Melky Cabrera would have made around 3 to 3.5 million). Yankees are the only team with 8 million dollars? Give me a break. Melky Cabrera is essentially a fourth outfielder, but he does have some value. Dunn’s nothing special, but Vizcaino is a solid prospect, one of the major prospect ranking websites ranked him #2 in the Yankee system and a 4 star prospect, nothing to just shrug at and act like they threw in a nothing guy. Other teams had the ability to do this. Same with Granderson. They weren’t willing to give up the PLAYERS necessary in most cases. The Yankees were.
I think small market teams have every right to complain about the payroll (bugs the hell out of me when the Red Sox do, but if the Royals or Marlins want to complain, they have that right). But now it’s complaining about making good trades? Do the other teams all want the Yankees to win too? Or maybe Cashman’s just better than people give him credit for. You know what I like about Cashman? Nobody even knew who it was the Yankees were targeting until this morning, about 12 hours or so after rumors came out about them going after a pitcher. Keeping it quiet makes it more difficult for another team to swoop in with a better offer.
I know it’s frustrating for fans of other teams when the Yankees have Vazquez now as their “4th starter” (he’ll probably end up higher). But this one isn’t about throwing tons of money at him. He’s actually pretty cheap for the Yankees considering Melky would have made 3 million or so. And Granderson is not very expensive either, just as Swisher wasn’t too expensive.
As for no home grown players…Jeter, Posada, Mariano, Cano, Gardner, Robertson, Cervelli, Hughes, Joba, and possibly Melancon if they decide to carry him. And I’m not even counting Pettitte, home grown but went elsewhere for a few years, and I’m also assuming they fill the bench with a couple players outside the organization. And right now only Cervelli is a backup, although Gardner likely will be as well. Melancon might not have a big role either, but the rest are everyday starters or important bullpen pieces. And they managed to hold onto Montero, who figures to play some part in 2011 if he has a good season in the minors this year.
#53: I can’t speak for Arizona, I do know that Brian Cashman didn’t want to trade Vazquez after 2004 (despite what happened at the end, when he apparently had a tired shoulder). He got overruled on the Randy Johnson trade. So that didn’t seem like a “We don’t want Vazquez near our team” and more a “We want Randy Johnson!!” thing. And as for the Braves, I think it was a case of them knowing they needed a bat, needing to free up money to get it, and knowing nobody would take Lowe. That leaves Vazquez.
Short of an act of Congress I’m afraid I don’t see anything changing on this issue for a very long time. Beginning as far back as the 1910’s the Yankees have outspent everyone…relentlessly. One Yankee official reportedly told a reporter that the ideal Yankees’ game was to take an 8-0 lead in the first and then, “slowly pull away.” They’ve been in 40 of the 88 World Series according to one of the blogs I’ve read here. Even worse, I’ve read all the current owners tend to gain financially when the Yankees are dominant and go deep into the playoffs, so they have no incentive to change the current system either.
No, we are screwed on this one. Nothing short of a miracle will change the current system. While the Royals may contend for a playoff spot in the years to come…they will never get past the big boys ever again.
Joe–just writing to report a glitch on your site. Every time I go to read post #70 I get through the first paragraph and suddenly I start hearing loud noises in my head like the ones the adults make on Charlie Brown cartoons…WUH WAH WUH WUH WAH WAH WAH….you might want to fix that…or maybe not, if the rest of the post was as annoying as that first paragraph.
Oops, Joe, it was #69…#70 is more of a lower case “wuh wah wuh wuh wah wah wah.”
Just kidding Kyle Litke, enjoy your new and improved (and probably not done yet–HOORAY!) traveling All-Star squad.
@31 indy_ralph: But that’s the point. Any team could make this trade. Any team could spend the money. Every MLB owner is, at the very least, a multi-freaking millionaire. This incessant bitching about the Yankees is, as Tony said at #24, starting to sound rather hayseedish. And don’t get me wrong; I hate the freaking Yankees. I hate the way they are covered by ESPN et. al., and I hate their a-hole players. But I envy their fans, because all their ownership and management care about is winning. I wish the Monforts felt that way.
This quote from River Avenue Blues:
“Off the books
Johnny Damon – $13 million
Hideki Matsui – $13 million
Andy Pettitte – ~$10.5 million
Xavier Nady: $6.5 million
Chien-Ming Wang: $5 million
Brian Bruney: $1.25 million
Melky Cabrera: $1.4 million
Jose Molina: $2.125 million
Total: $52.775 million
Additions
Javy Vazquez: $11.5 million
Curtis Granderson: $5.5 million
Nick Johnson: $5.5 million
Andy Pettitte: $11.75 million
Total: $34.25 million
There you have it. The Yankees are cutting payroll, and doing so substantially. I understand the complaints that their moves to cut payroll and grow younger are savvy, and make life harder on the rest of the league, but to intimate that they are outright buying team upgrades without limit is ludicrous.
If the Yankee payroll was infinite, they would retain Matsui, Damon, or possibly go after Bay or Holliday. They will do none of these things.
I realize that baseball fans have been complaining about money’s influence for over 100 years (see Connie Mack’s Philadelphia A’s and their outrageous $100k infield), but seriously, get over yourselves.
“The Yankees are cutting payroll, and doing so substantially”
Substantially??
$18 million is pocket change to the Yankees….
There’s an excellent chance that the Yankees will end up spending another $20 mil before next year’s World Series rolls around. (Especially if the Sox acquire a big bat.)
(#75 also doesn’t factor in any salary increases for 2010 by players staying in place. e.g., CC Sabathia, extra $9m next year.)
“Cutting payroll” to the Yankees is kind of like me saying “I’m going to lose weight” over the holidays. It’s meaning is more “I’m going to try to exhibit a modicum of self-restraint and stop from becoming a fat bloated slob” versus “I’m going to actually lose weight.” Neither of us are going to shrink one bit.
My odds of Yankees spending over $209m next year, when all is said and done: 99.9999994%
Those numbers by Javiar Vasquez should earn him Hall of fame consideration.
The Yankees winning the World Series is like me winning a poker tournament against 4th graders. I mean, sure, I won and I’m happy. But c’mon, I SHOULD win. If I don’t win, I should be embarrassed.
So Yankees fans – go nuts. Enjoy beating up on 4th graders – it’s a huge accomplishment.
Don’t forget about the $25M per year or so they’ll sign Mauer for once the Pohlad family low-balls him w/ a 5 year $100M offer that gets spurned.
My parity solution:
First expand to 8 divisions of 4 teams each.
Next, assign the divisions based on payroll, so that the top 4 payrolls are in one division, payrolls 5-8 in another, etc.
Only division winners make the playoffs.
Net result – less incentive for the Yankees to outspend the field by 50%, and more importantly, less incentive for the other clubs to try to keep up with them. In addition, either Boston or New York guaranteed to miss the playoffs EVERY SEASON! Everybody wins!
#79
And all the fourth graders yell at you: “YOU CHEAT! YOU CHEAT! YOU BIG FAT CHEATER!”
I don’t get it. I’m not a Yankee fan at all, but the Yankee haters are really confusing me.
They didn’t go outbid all other suitors and sign Vazquez. They traded for him. They totally ripped off the Braves. And whose fault is that? THE BRAVES. No one made The Braves make this dumb trade (and honestly I’m not ENTIRELY sure it’s a good thing for the Yanks….pitching well in the NL east is way different than pitching in the AL east). I mean really, if the Braves would give up Vazquez to the Yankees for Melky and Dunn, then the ROYALS could have had him for Dejesus and Cruz. Right?
But really now…what is it you want the Yankees to do? But I think I get it now…Yankee haters are only happy if the Yankees suck. Until they suck, any signing OR trade OR draft is total BS and unfair.
Where are the haters spewing out against the Red Sox for signing John Lackey, the best pitcher on the market that they didn’t happen to need?
Slade #61 said: “they haven’t even managed to win a quarter of all the World Series played.”
I guess you were absent the day they covered fractions. There have been a total of 108 WS; the Yankees have won 27. Where I come from, that is EXACTLY one quarter.
And, obviously, if we only start counting from their first WS win in 1923, they have a higher percentage; they have won 27 of those 86, or 31.4%.
@ 83
Read all of the comments. People are upset at baseball. Not at the Yankees. But you know, beat up that straw man, he won’t fight back.
@ DavidinNYC
I guess you were absent the day they covered counting. There have been 107 World Series. That is EXACTLY less than one quarter.
Uh…should read MORE than one quarter. I’m high, forgive me. Pluse it’s 105 with no WS in 1904 or 1994. Or something, I was absent both days.
Okay, I’m going to go over there now.
@ Drew
Beating the ‘09 Angels and Phils is equivalent to you winning in poker against 4th graders? C’mon, man. Those were two pretty damn good teams, and one of them just traded for the best pitcher in baseball.
@ 83: No, you’ve got it right. A person who calls himself “Voice of Reason” wants to tell you you’re an idiot, but all people on here want to do is bitch about the Yankees. Sure, it’s “baseball” too, but they really mean the Yankees. Oh, and Bud Selig. It’s his fault for approving a crappy trade.
The Yankees had one starting pitcher with an ERA+ above 106. If Vasquez pitches 200 innings with an ERA+ of 105, he’ll be a valuable member of that rotation. That said, and keeping in mind that there are only two teams in all of sports I actively root against, and the Yankees are one of them, I think this was a perfectly fine trade. Lets face it, the Yankees have a lot of aging parts: Rivera, Jeter, Rodriguez, Posada. 2010 might be their last chance to win the World Series until they can reload. How much will it cost to replace those guys after they’re gone? Will guys who can handle the spotlight of NYC even be available in one free agent winter? So the Yankees are likely to go from the likeliest team to win the WS to a mere playoff contender.
The trade seems reasonably fair to me. The Yankees got the best player today. The Braves got the guy with the best upside and saved some money. I don’t see what the problem is, and I *hate* the Yankees. Of far greater concern is: why the heck did the Royals sign Jason Kendall? He’s not cheap, he’s not young, he has no upside, and he’s not good any more.
Anyone care to explain the term hayseed as it is being used here?
@ Tangent
Okay, getting to the playoffs for the Yankees is like playing poker against 4th graders. Winning in the post season still takes a lot and is a little bit of a crap shoot.
But the Yankees even hit the playoffs with an advantage over every other team. So if, because of a number of reasons related to their market, history and the structure of the sport, they have an inherent advantage over every other team (except Boston I suppose) they just don’t deserve full credit for their World Series win. Because beating 4th graders or 8th graders in poker is not something to be proud.
It’s like Chris Rock said – “(people) always want credit for some shit they’re supposed to do. They’ll brag about stuff a normal man just does. They’ll say something like, “Yeah, well I take care of my kids.” You’re supposed to, you dumb motherf*cker. “I ain’t never been to jail.” Whaddya want? A cookie? You’re not supposed to go to jail, you low-expectation-having motherf*cker!”
Good job Yankees, you did what you were supposed to do. Do you want a cookie?
He’ll be the #4? Who does that put him behind, CC, Burnett, and Pettitte? He wouldn’t be put behind Pettitte, would he? Or would he, being an NL pitcher last year?
While I have never been a huge Andy Pettite fan, I would have to agree with putting him in front of Vasquez. Pettite is a good pitcher with excellent durability and the ability to buckle down and not choke on the big games. Note that he was the winning pitcher in the ALDS, ALCS and World Series. No way Vasquez can stand up to that sort of pressure, no matter how good a pitcher he is. That gives Pettite the edge.
Here’s an idea – why don’t all of the NYY haters & proponents of sports parity, invest all “your” money toward inventing a time machine. Go back & kill the parents of Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe DiMaggio, Mickey Mantle & Yogi ( sorry Mr. Berra ). Then you can all get little tin & plastic trophies at the awards dinner for participating.
For everybody who doesn’t get this post:
Sure, lots of teams could trade a promising 19-year-old starter and an affordable, league-average center fielder for one year of Javier Vasquez. And, yes, a fair number of teams*** could pony up $12MM for him.
Only the Yankees can afford both, and only the Yankees would consider that a reasonable price for a fourth starter.
***Though if you think $12MM — objectively, for virtually any non-superstar — is affordable, your perspective is pretty skewed to begin with.
I honestly think this move is just setting us up for another one. Signing a starting pitcher making $11.5M this year is not a terrible price for a pitcher of his caliber.
Let’s not forget that Jason Schmidt was making $14.5M with the Dodgers and wasn’t even in the damn rotation for more than 2 games.
Need I bring up Barry Zito as well?
I doubt he’ll have an era lower than 4 this year and I’m sure if Melky gets the playing time in Atlanta he can prove to be a solid #3 OF, 15-20 HR, 75-90 RBI, .270-.285 AVG.
BOOO HOOO! How much money are the Yankees sending the royals way? If the Yankees didnt spend the money we would call the owners a bunch of greedy bums! YES baseball has issues, but to watch the Twins and Rays have at least a couple of competitive years…no pitty for the Royals, I would like to see where these teams are spending the money they are recieving from revenue sharing. We win Championships….its what we do!
Drew #86/87 –
Math errors aside, my point was that comment #61 (the Yankees “haven’t even managed to win a quarter of all the World Series played”) was inaccurate.
Thank you for proving it was even more inaccurate than I had stated, which makes me curious as to why you criticized my conclusion.
I’ll forgive you because you’re high.
when the other teams open their books to show us just how “poor” they are then I might believe their sob stories.
I understand Joe Poz’s frustration here, and as a Yankee fan I can understand why other teams fans dislike the Yankees so much, but here’s what I don’t really understand…what has Cashman done this offseason which is so wrong?
He traded for Granderson, who does see his salary raise in the next few years, but for 2010 its realitively cheap for a player of his talents. And all the yankees gave up was an assortment of mediocre prospects. Why couldn’t another team have done this?
He signs Nick Johnson for $5.5 million, which is about the same that the Giants offered. Now maybe I’m wrong but the Giants aren’t exactly a small market team, yet the press is making them out to be by being outbid by the big bad Yankees. I know he has injuries but Johnson is worth every penny if not more. I mean the guy regularly carries a OPS over .400!
And then there’s Vazquez, who doesn’t exactly make peanuts, but after you factor in what Melky would have made in arbitration, the Yankees are getting him for roughly $8.5 million for just one year, and there could be two draft picks attached. And they gave up a pretty nice pitching prospect. So it wasn’t like they stole Vazquez. Again why couldn’t any other team of done this?
To conclude I know the Yankees are in class of their own (Redsox aren’t too far behind so don’t cry small market Henry) but it seems like every other team in baseball now (yes even the Angels & Mets) are complaining about them. It’s not like they went out and spent $400 million again. If anything they have kept it very simple yet people still complain that they are spending money. I know teams like the Royals don’t have nearly the budget NY has, but they can’t put together an offseason where they spent a lil money on quality players (say $5.5 million on Johnson) isntead of $2 mil on Kendall, $2 mil on Anderson and $2 mil on some other player wtih an OPS under 80.
@ David
It’s the internet. If you’re not criticizing you’re not trying.