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	<title>Comments on: Mangini: A Counterclaim</title>
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		<title>By: Cleveland Frowns: Feeling Minnesota: On Eric Mangini and Brad &#8230; (feeling minnesota) &#124; Today&#39;s Hot Stories</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/30/mangini-a-counterclaim/#comment-90390</link>
		<dc:creator>Cleveland Frowns: Feeling Minnesota: On Eric Mangini and Brad &#8230; (feeling minnesota) &#124; Today&#39;s Hot Stories</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 12:40:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/30/mangini-a-counterclaim/#comment-90390</guid>
		<description>[...] Minnesota: On Eric Mangini and Brad Childress    During Monday&#8217;s Mangini discussion at Joe Posnanski&#8217;s blog, commenter Joe Madden shared the point of view of a fan of a top-three Super Bowl contender [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Minnesota: On Eric Mangini and Brad Childress    During Monday&#8217;s Mangini discussion at Joe Posnanski&#8217;s blog, commenter Joe Madden shared the point of view of a fan of a top-three Super Bowl contender [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Burroughs</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/30/mangini-a-counterclaim/#comment-89764</link>
		<dc:creator>Burroughs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 19:24:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/30/mangini-a-counterclaim/#comment-89764</guid>
		<description>Mangini&#039;s game mgmt is horrible. In the 2nd Bengals game, his poor clock mgmt led to a Bengals FG late in the 1st half, when Browns could have run out the clock. Later in the same game, he punted on 4th &amp; 3 from the Cincy 43 with 11 minutes left &amp; trailing by 9. That was the 2nd &amp; final time the Browns crossed midfield. Then, he punted with 4 minutes left, as if they were going to get 2 more possessions. CLUELESS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mangini&#8217;s game mgmt is horrible. In the 2nd Bengals game, his poor clock mgmt led to a Bengals FG late in the 1st half, when Browns could have run out the clock. Later in the same game, he punted on 4th &amp; 3 from the Cincy 43 with 11 minutes left &amp; trailing by 9. That was the 2nd &amp; final time the Browns crossed midfield. Then, he punted with 4 minutes left, as if they were going to get 2 more possessions. CLUELESS.</p>
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		<title>By: Kim R.</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/30/mangini-a-counterclaim/#comment-88965</link>
		<dc:creator>Kim R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 17:34:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/30/mangini-a-counterclaim/#comment-88965</guid>
		<description>Pete makes a good case.  However, you can&#039;t ignore the fact that his &#039;09 draft is a failure at this point, with the exception of Mack.  Sitting two high second round picks for two consecutive games infers a lot.   Losing a good prospect -Don Carey- to a management error further illustrates there&#039;s a serious problem in the front office.  

This team lacks leadership.  In the front office.  In the coaches room.  Yes, the players eventually have to perform on the field but evidence (Steelers, Pats, Titans) proves that coaching in the real X factor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete makes a good case.  However, you can&#8217;t ignore the fact that his &#8216;09 draft is a failure at this point, with the exception of Mack.  Sitting two high second round picks for two consecutive games infers a lot.   Losing a good prospect -Don Carey- to a management error further illustrates there&#8217;s a serious problem in the front office.  </p>
<p>This team lacks leadership.  In the front office.  In the coaches room.  Yes, the players eventually have to perform on the field but evidence (Steelers, Pats, Titans) proves that coaching in the real X factor.</p>
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		<title>By: mike in mn</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/30/mangini-a-counterclaim/#comment-88454</link>
		<dc:creator>mike in mn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 19:20:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/30/mangini-a-counterclaim/#comment-88454</guid>
		<description>The Lions blew it by not taking Oher with their 2nd first round pick this year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Lions blew it by not taking Oher with their 2nd first round pick this year.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Daniel</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/30/mangini-a-counterclaim/#comment-88444</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 17:07:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/30/mangini-a-counterclaim/#comment-88444</guid>
		<description>Magini traded Edwards, Winslow and the #5 pick, in separate trades, for what amounts to a bunch of NFL players (all former Jets, I think) and a bunch of picks, including the #21 pick, a 2nd round pick and a few lower round picks.    Basically, they dealt 3 high value items for a bunch of relatively lower value items.  The results are yet to be seen, but I don&#039;t disagree with the strategy.  If the Browns were a few players away from competing, maybe a single high draft pick might be okay, and you might want to keep the troubled yet talented Winslow and Edwards.  But considering the massive holes on offense and defense, they need more than just a #5 pick and two receivers.  I think that&#039;s where they were coming from.  I wish the Lions did something like that as well. They did trade Roy Williams last year, but I wish they followed it up by trading the #1 pick and  Calvin Johnson.  The Lions have a terrible defense, a terrible offensive line and a terrible special teams unit.  Why not try to gather a lot of pieces to start building those units up?  What good is a flashy rookie QB and a top flight receiver on a team that can&#039;t run or protect the QB and can&#039;t stop the other team&#039;s offense?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Magini traded Edwards, Winslow and the #5 pick, in separate trades, for what amounts to a bunch of NFL players (all former Jets, I think) and a bunch of picks, including the #21 pick, a 2nd round pick and a few lower round picks.    Basically, they dealt 3 high value items for a bunch of relatively lower value items.  The results are yet to be seen, but I don&#8217;t disagree with the strategy.  If the Browns were a few players away from competing, maybe a single high draft pick might be okay, and you might want to keep the troubled yet talented Winslow and Edwards.  But considering the massive holes on offense and defense, they need more than just a #5 pick and two receivers.  I think that&#8217;s where they were coming from.  I wish the Lions did something like that as well. They did trade Roy Williams last year, but I wish they followed it up by trading the #1 pick and  Calvin Johnson.  The Lions have a terrible defense, a terrible offensive line and a terrible special teams unit.  Why not try to gather a lot of pieces to start building those units up?  What good is a flashy rookie QB and a top flight receiver on a team that can&#8217;t run or protect the QB and can&#8217;t stop the other team&#8217;s offense?</p>
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		<title>By: Bill C.</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/30/mangini-a-counterclaim/#comment-88442</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 16:33:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/30/mangini-a-counterclaim/#comment-88442</guid>
		<description>Re: Drafting centers in the first round...I think the Jets are pretty happy with Nick Mangold.

I don&#039;t have a problem with it.   The offensive line is the foundation of a solid football team.  It&#039;s not like the Raiders taking Janikowski in the first round.  Is the C they drafted working out so far?  (I&#039;m really asking, I have no idea who their C is).

When the Jets fired Mangini, I assumed he would get another head coaching job eventually.  There were too many promising glimmers for him not to.  But I also assumed that wouldn&#039;t happen until he spent several years as a coordinator somewhere.  He was only a coordinator for 1 year under Belichick, right?  So I was shocked when he got hired immediately by the Browns.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Drafting centers in the first round&#8230;I think the Jets are pretty happy with Nick Mangold.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t have a problem with it.   The offensive line is the foundation of a solid football team.  It&#8217;s not like the Raiders taking Janikowski in the first round.  Is the C they drafted working out so far?  (I&#8217;m really asking, I have no idea who their C is).</p>
<p>When the Jets fired Mangini, I assumed he would get another head coaching job eventually.  There were too many promising glimmers for him not to.  But I also assumed that wouldn&#8217;t happen until he spent several years as a coordinator somewhere.  He was only a coordinator for 1 year under Belichick, right?  So I was shocked when he got hired immediately by the Browns.</p>
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		<title>By: JD</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/30/mangini-a-counterclaim/#comment-88425</link>
		<dc:creator>JD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 14:41:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/30/mangini-a-counterclaim/#comment-88425</guid>
		<description>Mangini punishes players by making them do contact drills without pads. That makes him a horrible leader/decision-maker and an absolutely despicable human being who really ought to be hit by a bus.

The team was going to be bad no matter what, but being a colossal d-bag has caused complete mayhem with that team. There&#039;s lots of bad football teams out there, and they don&#039;t all have players speaking out publicly about some of the brutal stuff the coach does.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mangini punishes players by making them do contact drills without pads. That makes him a horrible leader/decision-maker and an absolutely despicable human being who really ought to be hit by a bus.</p>
<p>The team was going to be bad no matter what, but being a colossal d-bag has caused complete mayhem with that team. There&#8217;s lots of bad football teams out there, and they don&#8217;t all have players speaking out publicly about some of the brutal stuff the coach does.</p>
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		<title>By: Poseur</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/30/mangini-a-counterclaim/#comment-88422</link>
		<dc:creator>Poseur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 14:11:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/30/mangini-a-counterclaim/#comment-88422</guid>
		<description>Mawae was also predominantly a left tackle in college.  He converted to center his senior year.  Just sayin&#039;.  The best center in the league was really a left tackle.  

Oh, and Mawae is one of my all time favorite players.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mawae was also predominantly a left tackle in college.  He converted to center his senior year.  Just sayin&#8217;.  The best center in the league was really a left tackle.  </p>
<p>Oh, and Mawae is one of my all time favorite players.</p>
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		<title>By: Pete - Cleveland Frowns</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/30/mangini-a-counterclaim/#comment-88418</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete - Cleveland Frowns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 13:55:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/30/mangini-a-counterclaim/#comment-88418</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s a too much here to address in narrative form so I&#039;ll have to use bullets:

*Drafting a Center:  

There&#039;s an excellent article by Pete Prisco of CBS on drafting centers in the first round.  The title is &quot;Cal&#039;s Mack could change lack of centers&#039; first round love.&quot;  Here&#039;s a good quote from it:  

&quot;If the two tackle spots and center are the three most valuable positions on the offensive line -- which everyone insists they are -- why is center so under-drafted? 

The answer might be a simple one: Patience.

Or lack of it.

&quot;Teams don&#039;t want to wait two years to have their first-round pick play,&quot; Atlanta Falcons offensive line coach Paul Boudreau said. &quot;And with centers, it&#039;s such a tough position that you sometimes have to wait.&quot;

&quot;With big dollars paid out to first-round picks, and coaches and general managers living on the edge in this era of instant gratification, it&#039;s easy to see why there is so much reluctance to take a position that might take some time.&quot;

Consistent with Mangini taking the long view.  Something I respect. 

----------

*Ditching Winslow and Edwards:  

Specifically, Poseur&#039;s comment:  &quot;Giving up talent is normally not the best way to get better, and if you are inclined to give up talent, make sure you get something in return. What did the Winslow and Edwards deals net the Browns other than the addition by subtraction (seriously, I don’t know)? You need to trade those tangible assets for something else, not just sell them off at a cut rate.&quot;

This is exactly what makes rebuilding so hard...that sometimes you really do have to get rid of guys like this, and there&#039;s a good reason you can&#039;t get more for them than the Browns did.  There&#039;s no question that each of them was going to leave when his contract was up, anyway, Braylon&#039;s at the end of this season, so getting four draft picks and two potential starters doesn&#039;t seem like such a bad haul anyway.  Teams miss on high first rounders and are still able to recover.  At least the Browns got something here.  

Winslow was a more questionable call, but keep in mind that he actually sued the Browns franchise for millions in court in the offseason (wonder how that was resolved...never really hit the news).  And there&#039;s no question that Braylon had to go.  The guy was an absolute cancer in the locker room, and its at least interesting that the Jets have won only one more game than the Browns since the trade.    

The main point here is that it&#039;s not Mangini&#039;s fault that these guys happened to dominate the locker room when he got here.  It&#039;s not his fault that the state of the Cleveland Browns has been such a mess for ten years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s a too much here to address in narrative form so I&#8217;ll have to use bullets:</p>
<p>*Drafting a Center:  </p>
<p>There&#8217;s an excellent article by Pete Prisco of CBS on drafting centers in the first round.  The title is &#8220;Cal&#8217;s Mack could change lack of centers&#8217; first round love.&#8221;  Here&#8217;s a good quote from it:  </p>
<p>&#8220;If the two tackle spots and center are the three most valuable positions on the offensive line &#8212; which everyone insists they are &#8212; why is center so under-drafted? </p>
<p>The answer might be a simple one: Patience.</p>
<p>Or lack of it.</p>
<p>&#8220;Teams don&#8217;t want to wait two years to have their first-round pick play,&#8221; Atlanta Falcons offensive line coach Paul Boudreau said. &#8220;And with centers, it&#8217;s such a tough position that you sometimes have to wait.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;With big dollars paid out to first-round picks, and coaches and general managers living on the edge in this era of instant gratification, it&#8217;s easy to see why there is so much reluctance to take a position that might take some time.&#8221;</p>
<p>Consistent with Mangini taking the long view.  Something I respect. </p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-</p>
<p>*Ditching Winslow and Edwards:  </p>
<p>Specifically, Poseur&#8217;s comment:  &#8220;Giving up talent is normally not the best way to get better, and if you are inclined to give up talent, make sure you get something in return. What did the Winslow and Edwards deals net the Browns other than the addition by subtraction (seriously, I don’t know)? You need to trade those tangible assets for something else, not just sell them off at a cut rate.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is exactly what makes rebuilding so hard&#8230;that sometimes you really do have to get rid of guys like this, and there&#8217;s a good reason you can&#8217;t get more for them than the Browns did.  There&#8217;s no question that each of them was going to leave when his contract was up, anyway, Braylon&#8217;s at the end of this season, so getting four draft picks and two potential starters doesn&#8217;t seem like such a bad haul anyway.  Teams miss on high first rounders and are still able to recover.  At least the Browns got something here.  </p>
<p>Winslow was a more questionable call, but keep in mind that he actually sued the Browns franchise for millions in court in the offseason (wonder how that was resolved&#8230;never really hit the news).  And there&#8217;s no question that Braylon had to go.  The guy was an absolute cancer in the locker room, and its at least interesting that the Jets have won only one more game than the Browns since the trade.    </p>
<p>The main point here is that it&#8217;s not Mangini&#8217;s fault that these guys happened to dominate the locker room when he got here.  It&#8217;s not his fault that the state of the Cleveland Browns has been such a mess for ten years.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike in Hawaii(ABR)</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/30/mangini-a-counterclaim/#comment-88408</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike in Hawaii(ABR)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 08:21:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/30/mangini-a-counterclaim/#comment-88408</guid>
		<description>I think there is much more overwhelming proof that this guy is a bad coach than a good one.  If Pete honestly believes that Eric Mangini is an asset to the Cleveland Browns, well...that makes me scratch my head in confusion.  

However, I do agree with Mangini on one point, the fine over the water bottle.  There is a larger point there, and that is, no matter how you phrase it, it is basically stealing to take something that has a price and not pay for it.  So this player got charged a thousand bucks for taking a water, I bet he never does it again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there is much more overwhelming proof that this guy is a bad coach than a good one.  If Pete honestly believes that Eric Mangini is an asset to the Cleveland Browns, well&#8230;that makes me scratch my head in confusion.  </p>
<p>However, I do agree with Mangini on one point, the fine over the water bottle.  There is a larger point there, and that is, no matter how you phrase it, it is basically stealing to take something that has a price and not pay for it.  So this player got charged a thousand bucks for taking a water, I bet he never does it again.</p>
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