Begging The Question (From Midair)
Posted: November 20th, 2009 | Filed under: Essays, New Words | 116 Comments »
I remember talking to a colleague of mine and, for some reason, Amelia Earhart came up. And he said: “Who is she?” I have to say at this at this point that this colleague is very smart and knowledgeable about any number of things, and has a million facts as his disposal on a million subjects. That’s why it was so startling to me. And it was. I was stunned. He did not know Amelia Earhart? How was this possible? I said she was the woman pilot from Kansas who disappeared over the Pacific Ocean while attempting to fly around the world.* His face registered some sort of vague look of recognition, though he might have wanted to move on to move comfortable ground.
*Not sure why I was so “stunned” since that sentence more or less exhausts my entire catalogue of knowledge about Amelia Earhart.
I only tell this story to introduce my new word, dumbley, a noun referring to a piece of knowledge that everyone else seems to have but one that somehow slipped through your learning process. Because the older I get, the more I realize that I really don’t know much of anything. There are a million topics I do not know a single thing about. And it seems like everyone else knows these things. Now, often my dumbleys revolve around something pop-culturish (I still, to my great regret, have never seen an episode of Mad Men and know only that it has something to do with advertising), or something I simply have no background in (hunting or cricket or Lord of the Rings). It can be some basic fact that I missed because (apparently) I was absent from school that week (The Smoot-Hawley Tariff did WHAT?) or it can be some every day part of life that seems to have melted into everyone else’s mind but my own.
My most recent dumbley: I, for some reason, never knew that there was such a controversy around the phrase, “beg the question.” I had always thought that the phrase simply means, “To reflexively raise a question.” Like so: “The Royals’ trading for Yuniesky Betancourt begs the question: ‘Do the Royals have ANY idea what they are doing?’”
Well, as it turns out, yes, in many circles this HAS become the accepted meaning of the phrase. But for centuries, that’s not what “beg the question” meant at all. And (as I found out one day on Twitter) there is an Opus Dei group of grammarians out there who are fighting to make “beg the question” mean what it used to mean.
I should say that my inspiration for writing this comes from reading Roy Blount’s awesome book Alphabet Juice, which is basically Blount’s celebration of the English language. The book delves into words and phrases and sounds and roots of words. I cannot even begin to tell you how much this book has been, and he has an entire section on “beg the question.” He writes:
“What a great shame that the original meaning of this expression is pretty much lost. In argument people so often do ‘assume as proven what is to be proven’ as in ‘Have you stopped beating your wife?’”
OHHHHH. So that’s begging the question. How did I not know this? How did I avoid this solid bit of information all these years … especially as someone who is fascinated by words and phrases and language (and someone who is constantly involved in discussions where people try to beg the question). I don’t know. But in many ways, it’s a wonder that there are not more dumbleys in our lives. Because if you think about it, why DO most of us know who Amelia Earhart is? How did we even learn about her? At school? On television? In the movies? Why does it just feel like we were born with this little bit of knowledge — that Amelia Earhart was a pioneering woman pilot was was lost at sea? Why do most people just seem to know Helen Keller and Jimmy Hoffa and Will Rogers and other famous people like that? And isn’t it entirely reasonable when someone has not heard of them?
The mystery of dumbleys. I have probably heard or read the phrase “beg the question,” I don’t know, 100 times in my life? Maybe not that many. And I suspect I heard it used incorrectly just about every time.
And even when I heard or read it being used correctly, it’s quite possible that I just read right through it without pausing to consider the usage. We just sort of avoid the potholes. I mean, I have probably seen the “if not” construction used 10,000 times in my life and I’m STILL not sure precisely what it means.
“Oprah Winfrey is the most famous woman in America, if not the world.”
“Javier Vazquez had a wildly under-appreciated season. He deserved to be on the Cy Young ballot, if not on top of it.”
“Yuniesky Betancourt is the worst everyday player in baseball today, if not the worst ever.”
So what do these means? Does it mean that Winfrey is DEFINITELY the most famous woman in America and MIGHT be the most famous woman in the world? I suspect it does. But the Vazquez sentences suggest to me the author means that Vazquez deserved to be ON the ballot but PROBABLY NOT on top of it. And the Yuni sentence should mean that Betancourt IS the worst everyday player in baseball, and the rest is just hyperbole to slam home the point.
The differences are more than nuances, and often when I see “if not” I do not know (beyond educated guesswork) what the author really means. But I also don’t spend a lot of time thinking about it. I’m sure it was the same way with “beg the question.” I never really considered that it was being used wrong. The popular usage of the phrase does make sense even if the phrase is really not all the helpful except on Twitter where every letter counts (raises the question, commands the question, dictates the question all would work as well).
Blount,* I should say, is not Opus Dei on the subject. He just thinks people should stop using it altogether. He figures that the times have spoken, and “beg the question” can no longer mean what is used to mean because the new, less interesting meaning has stormed the castle and taken over the kingdom. “Don’t use it,” Blount suggests. “Just discard this arrow for your quiver.” Others are not giving up that easily, much in the same way that other people continue to fight for the more specific meanings of notoriety (not as fame but as fame for some bad quality or deed — using the same root as notorious) or anxious (as experiencing worry as in “He was anxious about his operation,” rather than wanting something very badly as in “She was anxious for Christmas to finally get here already”).
*I’ll throw in another gem from Blount’s book — this his favorite newspaper correction as it appeared in the New York Times on Dec. 6, 2003:
A sports article on Wednesday about Sylvester Croom, the new football coach for Mississippi State in the Southeastern Conference, rendered his comment to reporters incorrectly. He said, “I am the first African American coach in the S.E.C., but there ain’t but one color that matters here, and that color is maroon.” [Maroon being Mississippi State’s color.] He did not say, “This is only one color that matters here.”
Can you even IMAGINE how that call to the paper went? It had to be Croom who called, right?
I don’t know if “beg the question” will ever again appear in this blog. Maybe I’ll just use a different verb — like “jump the question” or “bypass the question.” I don’t know. All I do know is that I just wrote this blog post and sent it from a plane, using on-board wireless. What a world we live in. What a world.
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I thought perhaps my daughter’s teacher had a dumbley, in that he had no knowledge of who George Orwell was. Until the next year, when her next teacher had never heard of George Orwell, or 1984, or Animal Farm. What is the term for the useless facts you thought everyone knew, but apparently only you know.
I believe ‘if not’ can be used either of the two ways you discuss. The ‘wrong’ usage that would be analogous to wrong usage of ‘beg the question’ would be to get the order reversed, which a lot of writers do.
Next time the subject of Helen Keller comes up, ask if they knew she supported anarchists and radicals. I’d say 19 of 20 people won’t, and the 20th is probably lying.
Most of the time people would be better off saying “raises the question”. I know the real meaning of the phrase because I took a bunch of logic and philosophy classes. (And yes, its misuse annoys me.)
Similar to Mike’s point about the wrong usage of “if not” is the use of “let alone”. If you’re making a negative statement you start with the smaller group/subset and work up to the bigger.
Example: Mark Texeira isn’t even the best MVP candidate on his own team, let alone the best in the AL.
If you’re making a positive statement you start with the bigger group and work down to the smaller.
Example: Poz is the best sportswriter in America, let alone one currently writing for SI.
The “if not” statements can most easily be understood by simply reversing them.
“Oprah Winfrey is the most famous woman in America, if not the world.”
“Javier Vazquez had a wildly under-appreciated season. He deserved to be on the Cy Young ballot, if not on top of it.”
Become:
If Oprah is not the most famous woman in the world, she is the most famous woman in America.
If Javier does not deserve to be on the top of the Cy Young ballot, he deserves to be on it.
Read this way, it’s possible to see that the “if not” statement need not be making any statement at all. It could just be saying, if someone doesn’t believe this better thing, then they certainly can’t deny this slightly worse thing.
Not to deepen this issue, but what I believe this article subconsciously hints at is an increasing lack of substance in our collective knowledge, which leads to a diminished rigor in our analytical abilities. I don’t know if people, generally, could EVER debate each other properly, but when you realize that, increasingly, people have blindspots, some huge, just in the use of language, it’s not surprising that you can’t “win” or “lose” an argument with pure reason anymore. Maybe I’m taking it all too seriously.
It’s a wonder that any two people can have any sort of intelligent discourse about anything at all.
Irony is another one of those. I don’t really know what the true definition of irony is, so I usually just try to avoid using it. I know most of the things that I think of as ironic really aren’t based on the true definition. And that, I think, is ironic. Although, again, I’m probably getting the definition wrong.
And then there is the whole Alanis Morrisete song, which is really more about bad luck than irony. And you would think that a song about irony that isn’t really about irony is ironic. But it isn’t.
Wait, who’s Will Rogers?
The Wikipedia article on Irony is magnificent but will leave you feeling utterly smug and self-satisfied. I.e., about the same as a Grammar Nazi feels every day.
I’ve now read the explanation for what ‘beg the question’ means 5 times and still do not have the slightest idea what the author was trying to say.
I still don’t understand what ‘begs the question’ is supposed to mean based on the wife-beating example. Does that qualify as a dumbley in and of itself?
In the spirit of Joe’s creation of new words, I’d like to submit the word “Verdopes”.
These are words or phrases used because the speaker or writer believes they make their speech/writing sound more intelligent. Yet, they achieve the opposite because they are used improperly.
In addition to “begs the question”, the common misuse of “myself” comes to mind. As does something I’ve come across lately, the misuse of “penultimate”. I’ve heard people using it as if it means “even better than ultimate” rather than “second to last”. It’s weird.
I’m sure Joe could come up with something better than “verdopes”, but it’s my first stab at making up a word so go easy on me.
Amelia Earhart was a faculty member at Purdue. Purdue actually paid for the plane she used on her final trip. Earhart lived in one of the dorms there (Duhme Hall). There is also an Earhart Dining Hall on campus, named after her obviously, and a newly erected statue of Earhart outside of it.
it’s a rather poor example, but a quick one – namely that the asker assumes that you had been beating your wife at one time.
Thanks for writing this. I just found out that I’ve spent the last ten years feeling smugly superior to people who misuse “beg the question” while all the while having a different but equally incorrect understanding of what it means. Sheesh.
@#3 – She was blind to their flaws.
I knew that Amelia Earhart story sounded familiar.
http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/14/1920-black-sox-and-knowledge-gaps/
The most irritating misuse of an expression for me is “the exception that proves the rule”. I hear it all the time, think about it logically for one second. You’re trying to tell me that the event which shows this rule is a bad one actually somehow makes it a good one? It makes a little more sense if you use the less common meaning of prove, which is ‘test’.
I’ve been an editor for 25 years, and I’ve battled “begging the question” for a good chunk of that time.
I’ve been a baseball fan for even longer, but I imagine there are editors who battle “begging the question” who would be in a position to blog, “Did you know that when a baseball fan talks about the Pythagorean theorem, it’s got nothing to do with triangles? How come I never heard about this?”
I think you can only call something a dumbley if the information which is not known is general knowledge to people your age. Otherwise it has too much of a “you kids get off my lawn” flavor.
I wonder if that generalcrankiness at the changing of language or society sin’t just a protest we have to the idea of getting older. Because it is easier to see what kids don’t know but harder for us to see what they are learning that we weren’t exposed to at all.
I guess I think general knowledge evolves but we don’t. Like language evolves. Beg the question obviously has a traditional meaning which is mostly understood and still used in logic & philosophy circles. But the meaning of the word beg is counter-intuitive to the traditional meaning of the phrase.
I have known that “beg the question traditionally meant something other than how it is used, but I can never remember what the original definition was. I gave up worrying about it.
I would correct all the errors in my earlier post but the correction would be longer than the original post.
@Import (comment #20): Another possible explanation for “the exception that proves the rule” is that it derives from the Roman legal system, and refers to the existence of an exemption mentioned in a contract implying the existence of the rule that the exception exempts. For example, if you see a sign that says “No parking on Tuesdays,” that’s an exemption that implies the existence of the rule that you can park there at other times. So the (existence of the) exception (that you can’t park on Tuesdays) proves the (existence of the) rule (that you can park on other days).
Just think of Ben Stein:
“In 1930, the Republican-controlled House of Representatives, in an effort to alleviate the effects of the… Anyone? Anyone?… the Great Depression, passed the… Anyone? Anyone? The tariff bill? The Hawley-Smoot Tariff Act? Which, anyone? Raised or lowered?… raised tariffs, in an effort to collect more revenue for the federal government. Did it work? Anyone? Anyone know the effects? It did not work, and the United States sank deeper into the Great Depression. Today we have a similar debate over this. Anyone know what this is? Class? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone seen this before? The Laffer Curve. Anyone know what this says? It says that at this point on the revenue curve, you will get exactly the same amount of revenue as at this point. This is very controversial. Does anyone know what Vice President Bush called this in 1980? Anyone? Something-d-o-o economics. “Voodoo” economics.”
Teachers who have never heard of George Orwell, or 1984, or Animal Farm? No wonder our kids are getting more dumbley.
I’m going straight to Wikipedia, after which I will have broadened my knowledge of Amelia Earhart beyond: ’she’s that woman that flew across that one ocean that one time, or something.’
I always thought “the exception that proves the rule” was in some sort of unholy marriage with “there’s an exception to every rule.” I don’t know if that’s what’s been in every speaker’s mind I’ve heard say that phrase, but that’s what I’d assumed was in their mind. And, it’s why I looked at them like they were mentally deficient.
Are you high?
I’m 27 and have never played Oregon Trail. I only know i should have, because everybody else on earth has told me they have.
@ Josh — Everything I know about Smoot-Hawley I learned from Ferris Bueller’s Day Off.
Long live Ben Stein!!! Long live Abe Froman, the Sausage King of Chicago!!
Hold it, this hits a pet peeve of mine.
The ‘wrong’ meaning of “begs the question” is not ‘new’. It’s been around since at least 1860. What it is an example of is an expression with a ‘high’ meaning and a ‘low’ meaning. The ‘low’ meaning may seem to be gaining in popularity, but that’s just a reflection of the growing democratization of media of all kinds. There is no reason the two meanings can’t continue to coexist, as they have for more than a century. There are lots of words and phrases like that.
I can top Orwell. (Though I hate to think of teachers who didn’t know that…oh, wait. I have heard worse, I saw it first hand…*) My son was talking to a guy one time who did not know what Stonehenge was. How is it possible to get to adulthood, and be reasonably educated, without at least having heard of it????
* When I was a studying to be a teacher, in one class we had to administer a reading test to some poor unsuspecting kid and report to the class. One week we got two reports that went something like this. (This test was just 3 parts, all weighted evenly.) “My kid got a 30, 42 and 46 and his average was 50.” “Mine got a 37, a 49, and a 54 and his average was 61.” Both of these teachers to be did not know that an average cannot be bigger (in this case, way bigger) than all of the numbers being averaged. We weren’t doing calculus. This was adding 3 two digit numbers and dividing by three, and then realizing what the answer should look like!
Dumbleys remind me of a story I heard on NPR one time about people who had never shed embarrassing beliefs they held as children and had never shed because it had never really come up since.
I wish I could remember more of them, but I seem to remember one girl was at a party and made a comment about unicorns as if they were real. I think the focus of the story was on the discomfort that follows the stunned silence. It was entertaining.
I just found out today that there is a new flick called “New Moon” that is apparently quite popular.
I get annoyed when people form “let alone” sentences wrongly, by putting the more drastic option first.
As an example, Joe Queenan – I am a big fan, FWIW – did it when talking about Jim Bouton. “A man who wouldn’t pay to watch a baseball game is a man I wouldn’t have in my house, let alone my society”.
Surely it should be the other way round? It ought to be making the point that the subject is so awful you wouldn’t even allow them in the same country as you, and as for getting as close as your house – no chance! If you’ve already said you wouldn’t let someone in your house the society bit becomes a tautology really.
@#34
That was on an episode of “This American Life.”
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1251
Act One is what you were referencing.
Yes, twilight is no longer about the crepuscular part of the day. I miss twi-night doubleheaders.
Another term which has rapidly fallen into misuse is “sour grapes.”
If you’d like to have “begging the question” explained to you by a Tyrannosaurus, I suggest you look here: http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=693
Also, NPR contributor Geoffrey Nunberg wrote an excellent book called “The Way We Talk Now.” It’s great for language dorks.
@40
As a matter of fact, I did want a Tyrannosaurus to explain “begging the question” to me. You must have known, because you provided it.
If not for begging the question, this would be the best grammar post on Poz’s site, if not the whole Internet.
I love Dinosaur Comics.
I save all my stickler power for the forte/forte pronunciations.
What about “I could care less”. People always say things like “I could care less if Mark Mangino cusses at his players.”I always thought “I couldn’t care less” was the more appropriate way to phrase that sentiment. As in, “I couldn’t care less that Mangino is morbidly obese.”
When I was in college in the 70s, I mentioned something about Pearl Harbor Day to a friend and she had no idea what it was. And this was a 4.0 student at a university that is regularly ranked in the top 10 academically in the US. Which just goes to show something, but I’m not sure what.
@45 I’m with you on that one.
With regard to “begs the question,” though, I’d have to say that there’s not really a reason to “discard that arrow from our quiver,” as Blount suggests. If most people use in the context that we do today, then, well, that’s what it means – as long as it’s a logical interpretation of the words (e.g. “could care less” to mean that “couldn’t care less” seems incorrect to me).
Language evolves, and to adhere to arbitrary meanings developed decades, if not centuries, ago is counterproductive. There’s a reason that we don’t still speak in Old English, and while people might lament that, it’s just the way it is.
One phrase that I have never understood, and if somebody could enlighten me that would be great, is when someone is “under the weather”. What does that even mean? And if you are not under the weather, are you over the weather, in the weather?
If you ever take a logic class and discuss formal fallacies, you will (probably) be told by your professor that “begging the question,” refers to a fallacious argument form–also referred to as a circular argument–not leading to another question.
The correct usage is “couldn’t care less.” You are saying you care so little about the issue it would be impossible for you to care about it less than you currently do. If you say “could care less” it has a completely different meaning – that you care about that fact because you do have the ability to care about it less than you currently do.
to Ryan (post #48) – I found this definition at medterms.com:
Definition of Under the weather
Under the weather: Colloquial expression for sick or ill as, for example, to be under the weather with the flu. The phrase “under the weather” came from British sailing ships. When a sailor became ill he was confined below deck out of the weather, so it was said that he was under the weather.
My favorite Dumbley came up while playing Trivial Pursuit with a bunch of college students many years back. The answer to one of the questions was “Charles Lindbergh.” One young lady* said, “Who’s Charles Lindbergh,” and the table lapsed into what I took for uncomfortable silence, but apparently they were all trying to remember who Charles Lindbergh was, because another young lady finally said, “That guy in that movie whose baby was kidnapped,” and the whole table went “Ohhhhhhh.”
It’s a shame really that there wasn’t any money riding on that game.
*So if I’m young/old enough to have played Trivial Pursuit in the 80’s am I now old enough to use a phrase like “young lady” about a woman of college age?
+ 1 to # 45
Another one that drives me crazy is using “Irregardless” rather than saying “regardless”
# 48 Under the weather is an old maritime expression for illness or seasickness, and it’s use has been expanded over the years. It is debate as to whether it initially referrred to the “weather bow” which was the part of the ship most rocked by waves etc., or the fact that you went below decks (or under the weather) when you were sick.
debated, I mean- and one less r in referred.
Bad typing
While I usually get to be the guy who corrects others’ use of language (quote vs. quotation is my latest crusade; the former is a verb, the latter is a noun), I had the tables turned on me a couple years ago when someone questioned my use of the word ‘nonplussed.’ I was using it to mean ‘calm and unruffled,’ presumably about some potentially troubling situation. I looked it up in the dictionary and learned, much to my surprise, that nonplussed actually means ‘confused and dumbfounded.’ I have largely avoided using the word since. Even though I know what it really means, it just doesn’t feel like that’s what it should mean.
I guess I always thought the “beg” in “beg the question” referred to definition #2. I had never heard of definition #3.
beg –verb (used with object)
1. to ask for as a gift, as charity, or as a favor: to beg alms; to beg forgiveness.
2. to ask (someone) to give or do something; implore: He begged me for mercy. Sit down, I beg you.
3. to take for granted without basis or justification: a statement that begs the very point we’re disputing.
4. to fail or refuse to come to grips with; avoid; evade: a report that consistently begs the whole problem.
from dictionary.com…
Aren’t dumbleys the whole basis for Jay Leno’s street interviews?
Amelia Earhart has even been in the news lately. Don’t they think they’ve found her bones on some south Pacific island?
Laurence @ 36:
You’re right that it’s the wrong usage of let alone, but I think you’re wrong about the tautology part.
I wouldn’t want him in my house let alone my society. Well, not wanting him in your house doesn’t mean you don’t want him in your society. There’s all kinds of people who you don’t want in your house but are perfectly happy to have in society.
Geez, I’ve learned so much from these comments that I’m ready to throw out a turn of phrase that has long mystified me with the hopes that someone can enlighten me. If a particular task has a “steep learning curve” does that mean that it’s a difficult or easy task to master? I’ve never understood this…
I’ve never forgotten about the Smoot-Hawley tariff since I read Dave Barry’s U.S. history book, as he dropped “The HAWLEY-SMOOT TARIFF” into the text as many times as he could throughout a few chapters, always in caps.
Except for the one time he referred to it as “THE H*****-S**** T*****.”
“Wait, who’s Will Rogers?”
He was dating Amelia Earhart.
Another linguistic usage that bugs me is “comprised of.” Dictionary.com indicates that this usage has become more accepted in recent times, but I was taught in many English classes, by many different teachers, that “the whole comprises the parts” is correct, not “the whole is comprised of the parts.”
It always bugs me when Grammar Nazis trot out things like this (“No, man you’re not using that phrase correctly!” or “Back in MY day, such and such a word meant something totally different”). Do they know even the slightest history about the language the speak? Have they ever even tried to pick up the Canterbury Tales? If so, they’d see that half of the words and there mean something totally different now. In fact, said words and phrases have probably changed meanings two or even three times since Chaucer. Although, maybe these people also don’t know who Chaucer is… that’s a dumbley, right? Not knowing about one of the most influential authors in your language? Or am I just a major nerd?
Isn’t “when that aprile” about the beginning of the baseball season?
Joe, when I first saw the title to this post I was worried I was going to have to be “that guy” and be like, “well actually ‘beg the question’ means this…” but I was absolutely delighted to find that the post was delving into the discrepancy.
Good show.
Rusty @60, if a task has a steep learning curve, it means a person will be able to pick it up quickly. Wii tennis has a steep learning curve. Real tennis does not.
“Epicenter” is the latest word to be lost to correct usage.
@#60, #67 is an idiot.
[...] Shared Begging The Question (From Midair). [...]
@22 You’re begging the question as to the number of people who might know the actual meaning of “beg the question.”
Jack, et al, I am more bothered by the term “Grammar (or any other kind of, but isn’t actually a) Nazi” than I am by said peoples’ displeasure with usage errors.
I’m a Spanish teacher; Spanish has an official set of rules, unlike English, which is generally dictated by common usage. In Spanish, grammar and usage are either right or wrong. But, if we allow terms like “begging the question” to slip into their current common English usage, what will we say when someone is actually begging the question?
One of the best things about English is that it has so many words/terms/phrases. Synonyms are unnecessary. We can speak with more precision than speakers of any other language. If we’re allowing our vocabulary to be overrun and changed by colloquialisms, that’s fine (the recent South Park episode regarding common usage of the word “fag” was actually amazingly intelligent). But the ability of English to express an almost infinite number of subtly different ideas is only going to be compromised by our desire to feel like we’re using a phrase properly.
Hooray for fanbole! Long live the e-migo! And may I submit another –
prePOSterous – an idea that must be explained by someone with great skill at explanation in order to actually make sense.
@60, 67, 69
When I first saw this question I thought this was a no-brainer (meaning requiring no brain, not using no brain). Steep means hard or difficult and comes from plotting effort or investment required on the vertical axis vs. learning achieved on the horizontal axis,so a little learning requires a lot of effort.
This is the way I had always used it and I’m pretty sure the way I had always heard it used. However after poking around on the interwebs I see that some people (quite a few actually) plot it the other way around, i.e. learning attained on the vertical axis vs. effort or investment on the horizontal axis, which gives it the completely opposite meaning.
There doesn’t seem to be a concensus and I even found a number of writers that seemed to use both meanings within the same piece of writing.
Circle me William F Buckley!
Jack @ 64:
It is true that language evolves, but there is still a difference between the evolution of language and words and phrases losing their meaning because of incorrect usage.
Literally is a well-known one. It is so frequently used for emphasis when the speaker clearly does not mean “literally” as in “I got to work so quickly, I literally flew.” that definitions in many dictionaries now include that “incorrect” usage.
Many people argue that this is fine, and just an evolution of the use of the word literally. But if that’s now an accepted use, then how do you convey that you really do mean literally in a situation such as “Dude, I was so hungry, I literally at 10 Big Macs.” That sounds like an exaggeration, nobody could (or would want to) eat 10 Big Macs. But if the speaker is trying to express that it sounds like an exaggeration for effect but no, he really did eat 10 Big Macs, how does he do that if “literally” now means “figuratively?”
Moving along, I think people use steep learning curve all the time to mean very difficult. But what it actually means is that you improve greatly with just a little practice. (Which does not necessarily mean the task is easy).
The best way to think about it is to picture the actual curve on a graph. Amount of practice on the horizontal and skill level on the vertical. If the curve is steep, that means the skill level is getting very high while the amount of practice is not moving very far to the right.
I’m 29 now and it took until about 2 weeks ago to finally read 1984 (incredible), but I had at least heard of Orwell.
I didn’t think a discussion on language could be so entertaining, but everyone deserves a pat on the back in this case.
One thing they usually don’t tell you about Amelia Earhart is that she was probably bisexual, and possibly lesbian.
Substituting “if not” for “and possibly” in the above sentence changes the meaning: “if not” would mean “although she wasn’t.”
And it’s true that Helen Keller was a hardcore left-winger who considered herself a revolutionary socialist.
Again, if we use “if not” rather than “who considered herself,” it means “although she wasn’t.”
I was dating a girl a few years ago for several months. At some point in conversation she asked whether I thought the surface of the moon was hotter than the surface of the sun….
…
…
… There was a long pause in conversation, and I wound up having to explain to her that the moon is just reflecting the sun’s light, not an actual source of light or heat. She listened and then told me that my idea was “very interesting,” but kind of “out there.” Again I tried to explain that this was not just “my idea.” but to no avail.
She was not attractive enough to get away with such a dumbley, and I dumped her later that day.
I always understood “steep learning curve” to mean being forced to learn something difficult in a short amount of time. i.e. The last person had 4 months of training before starting this job but we only have 2 weeks to train you so you are going to have a steep learning curve.
You know, I don’t recall ever learning about Amelia Earhart in school. I have no idea how I know who she is? Also I hate people who say, in all seriousness, “irregardless”. That’s not a word!
re “steep learning curve”
It does seem to be used most often to indicate a task that is difficult to learn given a particular (and, typically, compressed) time frame. But I like kcdc’s explanation. To use RocketCy’s axis, I think you plot proficiency vs. time, and take effort or dedication as a constant. Because the learning curve refers to the inherent nature of the task, not the attitude the learner might bring to it. If that makes sense. I may be in too deep….
I met student teacher who wants to teach high school English that never read Animal Farm.
God I love this place.
I thought that “steep learning curve” meant something that is very difficult to learn the basics of, but gets much easier to learn once you get past that initial barrier. I guess learning to ride a bike might be a classic example.
Based on my boss’ useage, I always thought “steep learning curve” was synonymous with “you are screwed.”
re: #9
George Carlin had a great example of irony:
“If a diabetic, on his way to buy insulin, is killed by a runaway truck, he is the victim of an accident. If the truck was delivering sugar, he is the victim of an oddly poetic coincidence. But if the truck was delivering insulin, ah! Then he is the victim of an irony.”
Isn’t time always on the horizontal (x) axis?
The learning curve displays knowledge gained over time. As time progresses (as you read the line of the graph from left to right) the knowledge gained is indicated by the line’s position up or down the y-axis.
If you go really high up the y-axis and only a very short distance along the x-axis, the line is steep. In this situation, a great deal
Isn’t time always on the horizontal (x) axis?
The learning curve displays knowledge gained over time. As time progresses (as you read the line of the graph from left to right) the knowledge gained is indicated by the line’s position up or down the y-axis.
If you go really high up the y-axis and only a very short distance along the x-axis, the line is steep. In this situation, a great deal was learned in a very short period of time, like someone’s Wii tennis example above.
If it takes you a really long time to learn just a little bit, the situation is represented by a line that travels just a short distance up the y-axis, but a long distance along the x-axis: a shallow line.
Shallow learning curves represent a more “difficult” process than steep learning curves.
The thing that bugs me is when people use the non-word “per-say” to mean “specifically”, like in,
“I don’t know the actual *meaning* of the word, per-say, but I still use it all the time anyway.”
Thank you for making this post about how people misuse the phrase “begging the question”. I was worried for a minute there that I would have to write a multi-paragraph screed of a comment denouncing your use of English. ; )
My own dumbley would be the information that Joe Posnanski had this blog. I mean, how could I NOT be aware that my favorite sportswriter, one of the certified items on the list of 128,943 Reasons Why Kansas City is a More Livable Place Than St. Louis, has a blog? The bonus – as if I needed one – is that his blog’s commenters appear to be intelligent, witty, and not-at-all-hateful. Jeez. Now I have this blog and Roger Ebert’s, and that is very nice.
Joe: The easy way to do it is replace “beg the question” with “prompt the question.” You only have to substitute one word, and suddenly the phrase makes sense.
Fourteenth paragraph: “So what do these means?”
Seems you have some other grammatical issues in addition to issues with begging questions…
If I have a gun on me and someone says “I could care less” in my hearing, then that person is dead. I may swing, but it would be worth it. And I would die a martyr, a status no one in my family has ever achieved.
If someone says “comprised of”, then they will receive a pistol whipping — provided they are not too large (or wiry, or strong-looking).
“Begs the question” will draw a lecture.
In my book, “steep learning curve” describes a difficult task that has to be learned quickly. It also has connotations of not everyone being up to it.
@87: “Per-say” is in fact a non-word; however, “per se” is an actual phrase (a Latin phrase, at that) meaning “by itself”. So it is properly used when you are essentially trying to discuss an object, concept, etc. apart from any context — for example:
“Commenting on a blog is not ill-advised, per se, but may be if you don’t know what you’re talking about.”
@93: Yes, thank you. I understand all that. What I was trying to say was, it bugs me when people use “per se” to mean, “so to speak”, which I think happens a lot.
Part of the problem is people generally have minimal exposure to a broad range of ideas or information today. This is odd considering the amount of information at our fingertips via the Web and the 200+ television stations most of us have in our homes. However, rather than diversifying knowledge, the Web and all of these television and media choices narrow it. There are too many choices so we instead seek out things we are familiar or comfortable with. 30+ years ago, the majority of folks watched a nightly news cast or read a newspaper and would get at least headline knowledge on an assortment of topics. Today we just check out those news and information sources that reinforce our existing ideas.
Another recently overused one is “went missing,” as in “Amelia Earhart went missing” … although that’s not accurate. I think.
@96
It is overused, especially when the far superior “turned up missing” is waiting to be used….
when words change due to growth or slang or new usage, that is normal change within English (should I say if not in all languages?
However, when they are misused it often means the person using them is making a different point that the point being understood by anyone listening to him or her. What that does to effective communication is fairly obvious, no?
I think the meaning for “beg” which forms the actual meaning of the phrase “begs the question” is essentially archaic at this point, except perhaps for debate participants in college courses.
Arguing what the phrase should mean is largely a waste of effort IMO (for example “gay” will never again mean what it did in the “gay 90’s”) so in that regard Mr. Blount is correct to suggest not using the phrase to mean what it once meant, but I would add that another should be devised because the meaning is of some import.
As for steep learning curve, that is usually misused around me as something that is exceedingly difficult, which it can be but isn’t a necessity. Of course the “steep” can mean something is difficult to learn but only in the context of the amount of time available to learn it, as in a great deal of skill must be attained quickly.
So learning to ride a bike is an example of a steep learning curve – it can be amazingly difficult to learn how and provides a lot of anxiety to parents as they watch the process, yet in very short order the child will be riding as if there had never been a problem at all.
Learning an instrument is more of a shallow learning curve in that becoming truly skilled does indeed take a LOT of practice over a long period of time to achieve.
Clearly (to me) becoming a really skilled musician is much harder to do than learning to ride a bike but the need to learn fast or hit the ground (should I say “literally” here
can make it appear otherwise.
Regardless (I will never, ever add 2 letters to this word while maintaining the EXACT same definition) of anything I say, there will always be people who don’t like the migration of words from one meaning that they know to another that they don’t know (or like), such as the difference in the meaning of “gay” from the start to finish of the 20th century.
Oh and everyone knows that “fag” means motorcycle riders, right Seth?
The other phrase that is widely misused is “all but done.” I’m confused over the proper usage of it as well, and therefore never use it. There are several variations also when replacing “done” with other words that fall under this misuse.
I think one of the main lessons of the 2 linguistics courses I took in college was not to be snobbish and get caught up in “proper” pronunciation, usage, etc. The idea is that language is not just an abstract set of words and rules by which we are bound, but a living thing that is the product of its users. Now, this can lead to a certain amount of relativism and overindulgence, so I would have to take a stand at the misuses of “literally” and “could care less” as brought up earlier here. Those phrases are misused to the point where the speaker intends to convey the exact opposite of the words he/she is using.
“Begging the question” is not really a misuse in my mind, but a new use. It means something different than the original intent of the phrase (which original intent I was totally unaware of prior to today, despite having taken logic at the same time as linguistics) but it is not counterintuitive.
And do people really think people have more dumbleys today? Maybe it’s because I’m only 22 and consider myself relatively intelligent, but that argument smacks of “get-off-my-lawn-you-whippersnappers-iness.”
I seem to have a wealth of dumbleys every time I watch Jeopardy and Cash Cab. Especially the latter, since those are apparently people he’s picking up off of the Manhattan street. The fact that many of these people, some who don’t seem all that much older than me, know so many things I’ve never even heard of… well, I don’t usually feel good about it.
The funny thing is, this is the second time I’ve heard the explanation of the phrase “begs the question”. Hopefully, I’ll actually remember it this time.
I’ll tell you the one that bothers me. It’s the phrase “I could care less (what youe think, where you are going, etc.)”. The correct phrase is “I couldn’t care less” and yet I have heard news anchors, politicians, etc. use it incorrectly, so much so that I believe it has become accepted in it’s incorrect form.
About a year ago, “This American Life” on National Public Radio did a hilarious segment about something similar (dimilar?) to dumbleys. It was about common knowledge that people missed into adulthood — and then was revealed in an embarrassing public moment. One woman thought unicorns existed; after all, they’re not inherently stranger than zebras.
Import (comment #20),
“Exception that proves the rule” is actually a perfectly logical expression. If you refer to something as such, the very fact that your example is an exception proves that their must be a rule for it to be an exception to (and rules can logically have exceptions).
Most often, of course, it’s used fairly informally. So if someone were to say, “great athletes are never smart,” and you countered, “what about Bill Bradley?” for instance, one could respond, “he’s the exception that proves the rule.” Everyone knows that his intelligence is a very exceptional thing among great athletes and sets him apart, so it proves that there must be a rule (in this informal case more of a general tendency) that great athletes are never smart. It’s often used very informally, but it’s still logical.
I read through all of these comments and I’m still laughing at the Tyrannosaurus (#40). Great stuff.
Like Joe mentioned, I often reflect and find it amazing the things like this we may have missed out on from a day or two absent from elementary/middle school. I’m just glad we have the internet; a quick search saves me from embarrassment daily!
@50, 92.
Completely agree regarding “couldn’t care less” v. “could care less”. Most of these dumbleys have bothered me for years, but none moreso than that. Probably because the incorrect “could care less” directly contradicts what is trying to be conveyed.
Bob Valvano (an acquired taste, but, whom I find somewhat funny) on his late night weekend ESPN Radio show did something similar to this but it was more like what common thing have you never done or seen, etc. Some of the calls were hilarious…Never seen the movie, “The Wizard of Oz”; never eaten a carrot; never been on a train, subway etc of any kind; never been camping, etc etc….Maybe you had to be listening that night but it was a good time and Bob had a blast hosting it.
Impact – the word does not mean “effect.” I can’t stand when a person uses a phrase like, “What impact will this decision have on the quarterbacks’ confidence?” Really, the decision is going to physically hit an psychological concept?
Impact can mean “significant or major effect.”
108 comments and no one has mentioned “moot point.” Sigh…I think saying “mute point” should be punishable by death.
@107
…Never seen the movie, “The Wizard of Oz”; never eaten a carrot; never been on a train, subway etc of any kind, never been camping.
I had a buddy who would eat rather well using this trick.
Him: “What is that you got there?”
Schmuck: “Tacos”
Him: “What are tay-cos?”
Schmuck: “It’s tacos…and it’s like Mexican.”
Him: “Can I try?”
Schmuck: “Wow, what a sheltered life…have some of my tacos.”
The best is when he got someone to give him spaghetti, who hasn’t eaten spaghetti in their life by the time they’re 6 years old?
Mike – Believe it or not but I probably didn’t eat spaghetti until I was in 5th or 6th grade. I grew up out in the country, my parents thought spaghetti noodles and anything ‘Italian” was a poor man’s food. We had fresh beef, pork, chicken and fresh or frozen veggies almost every meal. I never ate pizza at our house until I was college age – REALLY!!
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Well, I should mention he was from south central LA, his name was Carlos, and he had most certainly had tacos a time or two in his life.
After hearing about your childhood, I would say I wish I had grown up on a farm. However, just looking at peoples Farmville updates fatigues me to such a point I can’t imagine playing that game for fun, much less in real life.
‘The fallacy of petitio principii, or “begging the question”, is committed “when a proposition which requires proof is assumed without proof.”‘
Or, every Bill Simmons article of the last 2 years.
My favorite celebrity dumbley: I’ve heard that, well into adulthood, Cher believed Mount Rushmore was a natural formation.
My all time favorite “begs the question” moment that has happened so many times I’ve lost count is the incorrect use of the term ironic. Every time someone I talk to or hear about on television use ironic in the wrong situation I just cringe.