This Year’s Gold Glove Ripoff
Posted: November 10th, 2009 | Filed under: Baseball | 87 Comments »
There is little doubt that you are expecting me to follow up that headline by writing about Derek Jeter. But … no.*
*As you might imagine, I have received about two billion jillion shmillion emails the last few days about the Yankees payroll screed I wrote a few days ago — even though I specifically suggested that Yankees fans skip it. I have not wanted to respond because I think that sort of defeats the purpose. The idea was just to spark a conversation about the Yankees, and it has done that much more than I ever expected.
Also I don’t quite know how to respond because 90 percent of the angry emails I’ve seen demand I defend something I never said and don’t believe. Still, I’ll try my best to respond to a few or the more popular complaints:
1. I do not in the slightest blame the Yankees for spending tens of millions more than anyone else. I applaud them for it. They have more money, the system allows it, they are trying very hard to win and that’s the goal. I think the system is badly flawed and leans heavily toward the Yankees. I tried to make that clear. But the Yankees are doing what I would want my team to do in that situation … and what I think I would do in that situation.
2. I do not in the slightest way blame Yankees fans for enjoying the team’s success. Enjoying is what fans are supposed to do. There’s no reason to feel guilty, and no reason to enjoy it any less. But, let’s not pretend that all’s fair in the world, and other owners could do what the Yankees do if they just had a little more gumption. And I should say I heard from many Yankees fans who, while enjoying the success, do concede that, yeah, fair or not, it’s nice to have a team in the biggest city with the greatest tradition, the fattest TV contract and a $1.5 billion baseball palace, a team that makes $100 million more in revenue than any other team and gets to spend that money to win baseball games.
3. I did not write that there should be a salary cap.
4. I am not a Communist. I was not at that meeting.
5. I do not like small-market owners that pocket revenue sharing money. At all. I also know that the difference between a team like the Pirates or Reds or Royals or Rays, whose annual revenue is about $150 million, and the New York Yankees, whose annual revenue is closer to $400 million, isn’t going to be made up by a Pittsburgh GM spending every bit of their revenue sharing money and a lot of the owner’s money.
6. I do not think that money guarantees success. I really don’t. I think winning baseball games takes much more than just money. I also think spending $50 million more on payroll than the second team is a pretty decent start.
7. I do not feel any bitterness at all toward the Yankees. I think they’re a classy team that played great baseball and deserved to win the World Series because they’re the best team.
8. I don’t believe I’ve written four times a day about the Yankees payroll.
9. I did not say it’s impossible for other teams to compete with the Yankees because of money. I suppose that I’ll end on this one because quite a few people seemed to take that as my point. And I kind of thought the whole article was built around why it IS possible to compete with the Yankees payroll. I think it is possible because baseball is a game that, for various reasons (and I thought Brilliant Reader Jason brought up a great point about the number of plays in a game) gives inferior teams a better chance of winning than in other sports. It is because the baseball playoffs, being short series, create a free-for-all that makes it possible (and even likely) that inferior teams will win. I really thought all that was in there.
And so on. I’m sure there are many valid destructions of the blog post that I haven’t answered …
Sorry. Back to Jeter. I have to tell you: I’m really not at all perturbed about Derek Jeter winning the Gold Glove this year. Do I think Jeter was the best defensive shortstop in the American League? No, not really. But unlike Gold Gloves past, I think that Jeter had a good defensive year. I don’t know if it was better positioning or, as reported by good friend Ian O’Connor, that Jeter really increased his flexibility by working out with a new trainer. But whatever the case, I picked up from the statistics*, from scouts and from my own meager scouting skills that Jeter was significantly better defensively in 2009.
*Jeter, for the first time, had a positive Dewan plus/minus. It’s actually quite stark:
2004: -16
2005: -34
2006: -22
2007: -34
2008: -11
2009: +5
Jeter also, for the first time, had a positive UZR — though three times he was for all practical purposes an average shortstop:
2002: -0.2 runs
2003: -2.2
2004: -0.4
2005: -14.3
2006: -6.8
2007: -15.3
2008: -0.5
2009: +6.6
And, to be honest about it, there wasn’t a real obvious shortstop choice for Gold Glove shortstop in the American League — there has not been for years, which is why Jeter has won four Gold Gloves now. There is no widely accepted American League defensive genius the way there was when Omar Vizquel played short or Tony Fernandez or Mark Belanger.
The best defensive shortstop in the American League in my view was Texas’ Elvis Andrus. He had great defensive numbers and scouts gushed and he had that “he seems awesome” factor. If you watched him play a couple of times, chances are you saw him make a dazzling defensive play.*
*The “He seems awesome” factor can trick you — the first couple of years I thought Yuniesky Betancourt had it. He made enough great plays that people in other towns who only caught a fleeting glance would think, “This guy is a great defensive player.” He was not great even then, and of course he is not even average now. But it was easy to fall into that trap.
Andrus could have won the Gold Glove — I would have voted him the Gold Glove — but to be fair he was just a rookie, and he did make 22 errors, and you can understand why the managers and coaches went with Jeter.
Baltimore’s Cesar Izturis could have won the Gold Glove — he probably had the best overall defensive numbers, and he had won a Gold Glove in the past, and he does have a reputation through the league as a defensive star. But he only played 114 games — Jeter played 153. That’s a huge difference. I think you could make a viable case for Jeter here.
Same is true for Detroit’s Adam Everett. It seems pretty clear to me and others that Everett is a better defensive shortstop than Jeter every day of the year and twice on Sundays (if there’s a doubleheader). In fact, in 2006, Bill James wrote a scathing and fascinating essay on Jeter’s defense using Everett’s awesome defense (Everett was a preposterous +41 on the Dewan plus/minus) as a counterpoint. But, Everett’s not quite that good now, and anyway he only played 116 games.
Angels’ shortstop Erick Aybar could have won the Gold Glove — I think you could make a compelling case that he’s a better defensive shortstop than Jeter. But, I also think you could make a compelling case that Jeter was better this year. Their UZR difference is negligible, Jeter’s plus/minus is better, Jeter started 12 more games at short. And my own impression of Aybar’s defense is that he’s good but not necessarily great, and I would say that picking Aybar would not have been any more fulfilling than picking Jeter.
So … yes, I’m saying that I think Jeter is actually a fair Gold Glove pick. I would not have picked him — as mentioned, I would have picked Andrus — but I think this was a pretty good year to give Jeter the Gold Glove. Now, I feel just as strongly that his previous three Gold Glove wins were all pure lunacy. And I also think this is where the Jeter Gold Glove run ends — Jack Wilson, who won the Fielding Bible Award at short, should play the full year in the American League, and Andrus will be established and I think he could win quite a few before he’s done. Assuming they play 140 or so games either one of them is likely to be a much better defender than Jeter next year.
But this year — and readers of this site know my history of writing about Jeter and defense — I really don’t think Jeter is a bad choice at all.
No, there was someone else who I think got wildly ripped off for a Gold Glove. And, no, I’m not talking about David DeJesus not winning a Gold Glove.
*The Kansas City Royals management — and various people around the team — really, really, really thought DeJesus was (A) Worthy of a Gold Glove and (B) An actual candidate for a Gold Glove. This was because he did not make a single error — he has not made an error in left field since 2006 — and he was among the league leaders with 13 assists. Of course, I tried to tell people around the team that this was preposterous because — well, let’s see if I can dust off my old BASIC Language skills from 7th grade:
10 PRINT “David DeJesus is a left fielder.”
20 PRINT “Right or wrong, left fielders don’t win Gold Gloves.”
30 PRINT “Is this clear?”
40 INPUT A
50 IF A = “Yes” THEN GOTO 110
60 PRINT “ Not clear? Well, DeJesus is not even the best left fielder in the American League.”
70 PRINT “Carl Crawford is the best.”
80 PRINT “By a lot.”
90. PRINT “Carl Crawford has never won a Gold Glove.”
100 GOTO 30
110 STOP
But the Royals had such a bad year and they were so bad defensively at every other position that DeJesus’ defensive consistency — and he IS a good left fielder, he really is — grew into something larger than life. It became this weird point of contention. Who the heck brags about how good a defender their left fielder is anyway? If he covers so much ground, why isn’t he playing center field? If he has that great an arm, why isn’t he playing right field? There are a million different ways to explain how bad the Royals are, but one of the simplest would be to say: Their best defensive player was their left fielder. And they proudly trumpeted this
Anyway, DeJesus didn’t win a Gold Glove, of course. But I’m thinking of another outfielder — you know who. The three outfielders who won Gold Gloves were Torii Hunter, Adam Jones and Ichiro Suzuki. Now — and I appreciate that you may not care about defensive statistics at all or you are agnostic about them — but I’m going to give you a couple anyway. First, I want to show you their Dewan plus/minus numbers:
Ichiro: +21 plays above average
Torii: +8
Adam Jones: -20
Yes, that would be -20 for Adam Jones. Maybe you don’t buy that at all. I understand. Here are their Ultimate Zone Ratings:
Ichiro: +10.5 runs above average
Torii: -1.4
Adam Jones: -4.7
Yes, with UZR, Torii AND Adam Jones scored negative numbers … again, you might call total bull on that. And I understand, I really do. You might simply know, in your heart, that Hunter is still as great as he ever was out there and that Adam Jones is a defensive dynamo. But now I’m going to show you the Dewan plus/minus and the UZR for another outfielder. You already know who this is: Franklin Gutierrez.
Dewan: +43
UZR: +29.1
Do me a favor, no matter how you may feel about defensive numbers: Just look at those again. Compare them. Please? Everyone here knows I love these stats, but even if you think they are irreparably flawed — could they be THAT WRONG? His plus minus is SIXTY THREE PLAYS better than Adam Jones. His UZR suggests he saved more than THIRTY RUNS more Torii Hunter. Could they be that wrong?
Well, obviously, I don’t think so. I spent some time watching these players … I ended up watching quite a few Seattle games last year. There is little doubt in my mind that Frankllin Gutierrez was every bit as good as the numbers suggest, and that he was a much, much, much, much better defensive player than any of the three, including Ichiro who I think had a terrific defensive year. That’s not a knock. Gutierrez had a monster defensive year. A near-legendary defensive year.
And numbers aside, my own scouting aside — people who watched him play thought that too. I probably heard from five or six scouts/executives this year who said that they saw Gutierrez play and thought he was a phenom out there. Of the 10 voters in the Fielding Bible, eight picked Gutierrez the best centerfielder in all of baseball, not just the AL. Bill James picked Chris Young No. 1 and Gutierrez No. 2 — I think that was just Bill being argumentative. Hal Richman picked Gutierrez third.
*Hal Richman, the inventor of Strat-o-Matic and one of the great judges of defense, put Torii Hunter No. 1. and Carlos Beltran second. I love on an emotional level that he put Beltran so high because everyone here knows how much I love Beltran. Still, the guy only played 77 games this year. I felt kind of guilty for ranking Beltran fifth in my own poll. But, hey, I did watch him grow up.
John Dewan — who has pretty much dedicated his life to quantifying baseball defense — estimates that Frankie Gutierrez saved 31 runs over an average center fielder in 2009, which is absolutely amazing. No outfielder was even close. And Dewan is a guy who, together with his staff, literally breaks down EVERY SINGLE PLAY on video.
The way I see it: The coaches and managers missed. That’s all. We all know that the Gold Glove has become something to reward good offensive players who seem to be pretty decent in the field too. I think part of it comes from this urge we have to believe in the complete player. I mean look at the OFFENSIVE numbers of the Gold Glove winners:
C: Joe Mauer — hit .365 and will probably be MVP.
1B: Mark Teixeira — Led league with 39 homers and 122 RBIs, an MVP candidate.
2B: Placido Polanco — Down offensive year, only hit .285 after hitting a combined .318 last five seasons.
SS: Derek Jeter — Another great offensive year, an MVP candidate.
3B: Evan Longoria — Hit 33 homers and drove in 113 RBIs.
OF: Ichiro Suzuki — Hit .352 and led league with 225 hits — fourth year in a row led league in hits.
OF: Torii Hunter — Eighth straight Gold Glove and he probably had his best offensive season, 126 OPS+
OF: Adam Jones — Sort of an odd fit, but was hitting .303 with some power before All-Star Break.
So there you go. How likely is it that the best offensive players are ALL the best defensive players too?
I really feel like the Gutierrez snub is a huge blight on this year’s Gold Glove award. He had a defensive year for the ages. It seemed impossible to miss. But he’s a limited offensive player (not bad but limited), and he played out in Seattle (and maybe the voters didn’t want to choose TWO Mariners), and this was his first year in center field (he had been an utterly brilliant defensive right fielder in Cleveland). I appreciate that the Gold Glove is a flawed award and always has been, but it is for now THE award for defense, and I really wish they had gotten this one right. I think they should have gotten it right.
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Agreed. Gutierrez should have been a bigger lock than Greinke for Cy Young.
Also, agreed the decision to promote DeJesus was ridiculous. Even if the voters decided to support a left fielder, certainly Carl Crawford would be that guy. And, they had an actual gold glove candidate on the team in Greinke. He made a series of beautiful plays this season. Buerhle has a great pick-off move, but I don’t think he fields the position as well as Zack. So if you are going to promote a guy, why not promote one who could win and who in the promotion wouldn’t make you look silly.
This was the year for Greinke, with Mussina out of the league. He could have won this year and the next dozen or so on inertia; now he has to wait for Buerhle to retire to get another chance.
Will Franklin Gutierrez become the Adam Everett of center fielders?
Joe Please Get Back To The Basics – You were the Best – Now it’s just rambling, and it’s getting old. How about our old friend Buck, please, please don’t let his memory die.
Tango has a bit of interesting, anonymously sourced, data.
The picture that it paints sort of makes sense to me, in that the voters may not be choosing the best from the available candidates, but instead picking the best of the ones they think of on the spot.
I’m much happier with the illusion that Andrus was overlooked than I am with the notion that after deliberation he was considered inferior to Jeter.
Ask a stupid question, get an answer that makes your source look stupid, I suppose.
“Everyone here knows I love these stats, but even if you think they are irreparably flawed — could they be THAT WRONG?”
I’m sure you believe that Babe Ruth is one of the elite players of all time, but do you realize that he’s nearly 1000 Woozles behind Lou Brock? It’s true, look it up – Brock is 999 Woozles ahead of Ruth.
I know Woozles aren’t a perfect measure – we’ll get better results when I get the Woozleshares framework ironed out. But still, do you really think Woozles are THAT WRONG?
“Royals Management”?I think hereafter they should be referred to as “Royals Mismanagement.”
And Yankee fans emailing you about that post? Some things never change. Loud and obno as always. Maybe they’ll grow up a little after you patiently explaining in this good post.
onward…
Whether or not Jeter deserved the GG (and I more or less agree with your assessment) can we all get together and talk about how utterly ABSURD it is that he won the Hank Aaron Award? I know it’s voted on by fans, so only Yankees and Red Sox players are eligible, but let’s be clear here, he wasn’t the best candidate for the award in question on his TEAM.
Really, this happens just about every year. I remember fondly 2007, when Troy Tulowitzki was – I believe – the unanimous winner of the Fielding Bible, but lost the Gold Glove to MVP Jimmy Rollins. It certainly wasn’t as egregious as Jones (or McLouth last year), but Tulo not only had double J-Roll’s UZR, he also was the best fielder on the highest fielding percentage team of all time. Offense and seniority – Tulo was a rookie – won out, though, as they often do.
Hey Joe, where can we see the Fielding Bible Awards? I want to know who ya’ll selected and I have no idea where to look. Thanks for linking in advance.
I’m going to have to play the “JFGI” card here.
Go to Google, type in “Fielding Bible.” It’ll take you to http://www.fieldingbible.com. Thar she blows.
@Jon H: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=fielding+bible+2009
At 2b, there were at least two candidates that would have been better choices than Polanco: Aaron Hill and Dustin Pedroia. I don’t get it. Don’t these guys even talk about who to vote for?
I would like to know how many Jeter errors were saved by Texiera’s smooth glove at first. I think it is reasonable to take note that Jeter was a poor *defensive player until the year a good defensive first baseman showed up. Just take note of it. I don’t have the stats to back it up, and its just a hunch. I could be wrong.
*Sometimes very poor
The best part about being a Cleveland Indians fan — you get to feel so proud of your players when they go elsewhere to have major career success. Huzzah, Franklin!
I’m looking forward to reading about Matt LaPorta’s defensive success with the Red Sox in 2013.
But he only played 114 games — Jeter played 153. That’s a huge difference. I think you could make a viable case for Jeter here.
Well, Rafael Palmeiro demonstrated that 28 games is all that is required to win a Gold Glove, so there is that…
“I appreciate that the Gold Glove is a flawed award and always has been”
I think that this is all that needs be said. The winners are apparently picked based on factors that can be charitably described as “incomprehensible.” It’s not a flawed award, it’s a travesty that is essentially meaningless. Maybe at some point the voters will use actual fielding metrics instead of “well, I saw him dive into the stands to catch a pop up once.”
You’re right about Gutierrez deserving the Gold Glove this year. He’s been a good to spectacular defensive outfielder for some time. I’m not sure why the baffling picks are made, unless it relates to the number of teams in the league. In the 50s, managers had to remember the performance of fielders on seven other teams, each of which they saw at least 22 times. Much easier to get a complete picture of opposing fielders than now, when at most they see opponents 18 times, and with some teams, as few as 6 times. How can you get a picture of a player’s performance with 6 games as a sample? It’s a different time now, and you’re going to see more questionable picks as a result. Going back to Adam Jones/Franklin Gutierrez, no argument about who deserved the award. But Jones could look brilliant at times, and managers could remember those performances.
Joe has to go and write essentially the same piece I wrote for this morning, only much, much better. Alas.
I do want to point out one thing from what I wrote, though: by UZR, the defensive gap between Franklin Gutierrez and Torii Hunter is approximately equal to the offensive gap between Miguel Cabrera and Asdrubal Cabrera. Or: giving Torii a GG over Gutierrez is exactly as justified as giving the silver slugger to Derrek Lee over Al Pujols. That’s without even considering Adam Jones, which was just bizarre.
The voters’ failure to award Gutierrez a Gold Glove tells you everything you need to know about the award and what it means.
Look at the Seattle pitcher ERAs. Look at what happened to Washburn when he left. If you want something other than stats produced by people that WATCH EVERY PLAY (like your own anectdoal beliefs), just look at the stats the SEA pitchers put up this year compared to last year, and judge the D on that.
This is why the Twins keeping Young and getting rid of Gomez will haunt them. OF D is under-rated and not well understood.
I get in this argument all the time with Twins fans. “The defensive stats aren’t perfect, so they should be ignored and we should go by the 100 Twins games we see to know if a player is good on D. We should totally ignore the opinions of people that WATCH AND CHART EVERY PALY.”
Really, that’s your argument? You watch maybe 1/16th of all the games played, never write anything down, and know who the good defenders are and don’t believe people that watch and chart EVERY PLAY? Really? That’s your best argument?
“by UZR, the defensive gap between Franklin Gutierrez and Torii Hunter is approximately equal to the offensive gap between Miguel Cabrera and Asdrubal Cabrera”
Asdrubal Cabrera had a fine season (115 OPS+)–it’s more like the offensive difference between Miguel and David DeJesus
Joe – I think you need to include a glossary every time you write a column like this, so when you tell us that Jeter’s SPQR went down 7 points, his LSMFT went up 6, and his BVD was unchanged, we know what you’re talking about.
C’mon Joe, not even a mention of Mark Buehrle winning a well-deserved Gold Glove?
The blame for Gutierrez not winning a GG goes to you, Joe. You wrote a bunch of blog posts about why Mauer should be MVP, about why Greinke should win the Cy Young, and about why Blyleven should be in the HoF. But why no posts about Gutierrez and a GG? He had a historically great season, right? You continually harp on how idiotic HoF voters are, how stupid MVP voters are, and how clueless Cy Young voters are that you write long, preemptive columns trying to bestow some reason upon them (see yesterday’s HoF post). But the Gold Glove voting is much worse than MVP, Cy or HoF voting. Yet no long-winded posts until after the fact? Shame on you, Joe. I blame you in the same way I blame the media for ignoring the steroid era.
Jacoby Ellsbury
#24 – I don’t know if my sarcasm detector is broken or not, but that’s a pretty ridiculous point. The Gold Gloves are voted on by managers. There is zero chance they read Joe’s stuff or get influenced by it. The Hall of Fame and MVP are voted on by media. Getting arguments out in the public eye can actually have an effect there.
Really the only award that isn’t flawed is the batting title, and that’s only because there isn’t any selection. Plain and simple, whoever has the highest average wins. The Gold Glove and Cy Young are horribly flawed.
#21: true that A.Cabrera had a fine season offensively, but I was going by the offensive component of WAR. Gutierrez has Torii beat by about 30 runs on defense, which is approximately the same amount by which Miggy beats Asdrubal on offense (a more exact comp would be M.Cabrera over Tejada, but I liked the Cabrera/Cabrera thing more than the Miguel/Miguel thing). He beats DeJesus by closer to 40 runs, which I guess is close to by how much Gutierrez beat Adam Jones.
todmod@26: I was being sarcastic, but in reading it again I realize the sarcasm in my post isn’t obvious.
de913 – Joe did say what Dewan and UZR measure. One measures the number of plays above or below average that a particular fielder makes; the other estimates how many runs above or below average that fielder saves.
Really – it’s a direct quote.
First, I want to show you their Dewan plus/minus numbers:
Ichiro: +21 plays above average
Torii: +8
Adam Jones: -20
He does the same for UZR directly below. (In fairness, he does not define SPQR, but that’s a moot point since Russell Crowe leads the league every year anyway.)
Joe:
Glad to see you backtracking from that foolish post on the Yankees revenue advantage. Everyone knows it’s real, but there is no evidence to suggest it is a bad thing. Baseless whining is beneath you.
Now that you have returned to the world of the reasonable, yes, you are correct in making your case for Franklin Gutierrez.
Really enjoyed this entire column – nice work. And, for the most part, as a recognition of defensive prowess/excellence, the Gold Gloves have been a joke for many, many years.
Re: The president’s comment @14
I’ve read a couple of things about Teixeira propping up Jeter’s defense (particularly as part of the Tex-for-MVP argument). And I think it’s reasonable to hypothesize that having a good defender at first might make some sort of difference. But if you look at the components of UZR–for infielders, those are double play runs, range runs, and error runs–it looks like Jeter’s range is mostly what’s driving his improvement rather than an improvement in avoiding errors.
Jeter’s DPR/RngR/ErrR
2008: -1.8/-3.2/+4.5 (-0.5 UZR)
2009: -1.7/+3.7/+4.6 (+6.6 UZR)
This is the first year he’s ever been positive in range runs. His double play runs and error runs are pretty much in line with the rest of his career since 2002.
This blog is a great resource for those who appreciate the fine details of baseball and the comments section reflects it, but let’s face it: the masses who watch baseball are complete and utter morons.
My proof?
Look at the results of these polls:
http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/polls?pCat=46&sCat=811
Sorry, the link above appears to give you a random poll — make sure you click on the GOLD GLOVES poll to see what I’m talking about.
Pedroia is a perfect example of the point about offense. Last year, he was the MVP, so he gets the Gold Glove too. This year, his offense was down a bit (though more so, and more importantly in this case, by traditional stats) and it goes to the reputation guy, Polanco, instead.
Cleveland’s outfield would sure look nice with Gutierrez in center, Choo in right, and Sizemore’s noodle arm in left, but at least the Dellucci/Michaels platoon is gone.
[...] the Gold Glove voting is a fantastically flawed process, which we should all know by now, and which Joe Posnanski clearly demonstrates in explaining the travesty of Adam Jones winning over Franklin Gutierrez in the AL. The same [...]
“he does not define SPQR, but that’s a moot point since Russell Crowe leads the league every year anyway”
HAHAHAHAHA…that is all.
Jeter very well may not be the best defensive S.S. But anyone who quotes the UZR as a real statistic is nothing more than a stat geek moron. And could never have played this game since little league. At one point this year it (the UZR) had Texieria listed as the 9th best fieldind 1st baseman!
It`s a stat that does not even count balls he scoops out of the dirt. Any bozo that applies some number logic to this game seems to be accredited as a real statistition by the masses of fans who couldn`t explain the difference between a curve and a slider. Unless of course they could relate some mathmatical equation to them. I`m also sure of is they couldn`t hit either one.
Why is the outfield vote not position specific? You should have the best left, center and right fielders. You could make the argument that every good third baseman could play a quality first base. You could say any good shortstop could play a great second base. All relievers are failed starters. They should vote the award based on the position they DID play, not what they COULD play.
You can talk about who has better percentages all you want but, but how on earth can you quantify great plays ie: range and arm strength, you cant do it. so thats why jeter wins the gg because he makes the routine play and he has a reputaion of making the great play in the past, but we all know Aybar and Andrus have twice the range and arm strength of Jeter. So if there UZR or whatever you call it were “negligible”, the why doesnt aybar have a gg, because the system is flawed based on reputation and offensive prowress to some degree
I’m not sure why you and Mellinger keep writing about David DeJesus. Yes, it’s a silly campaign, but he turned out to be better than you all thought earlier in the season, and hardly worth the time you spent running him down.
And more importantly, are you surprised by the campaign? This is an organization that not only think Dayton Moore is capable of running a major league baseball team, but gave him an extension during a season in which became obvious to even the most oblivious fan that he and Omar Minaya are in some kind of “who is a bigger joke” contest.
As an Oriole fan, I should mention that when news of Jones winning the award was leaked over the weekend (his brother posted it on MySpace), the general reaction of most fans was “Huh?” Followed very quickly by “An ORIOLE won an award based on reputation? Cool! Congrats Adam! Huzzuh!”
He was third in UZR among qualifying center fielders last season (second in UZR/150). Between it taking a season to get his reputation established and him having some really flashy plays and a casual way of playing (he’s noted around here for blowing a bubble right as he’s about to make a catch), it’s not a complete surprise he won.
So we’re just taking what we can get and letting everyone else act outraged for once. It’s nice.
By the way, if you read this Joe, I wanted to mention that my sister was in Cincinnati last weekend for a wedding and she was really impressed by the Skyline chili. I almost asked her to bring some back for me so I could try it. I bet she ends up eating KC barbecue before me as well…
As one of the people who gave you some grief over the “Yankees Payroll” post (although not through e-mail), I appreciate the clarification on several points that apparently many of us misunderstood. Ironically, this Jeter winning the gold glove thing upset me (a Yankee fan), much more than you. I think it’s pretty absurd that the guy (a no doubt hall of famer) continues to win the award with bad (but better this year) defense. I guess I have the same problem with Jeter winning the GG that you did with the Yankees winning the WS, they already have it all, shouldn’t someone else be getting a shot? But I guess that’s what we get for even paying attention to the Gold Glove voting anymore.
Circle me, hater of leaping Yankee shortstops.
@45 – How could anyone misunderstand the “Yankees Payroll” post? Joe’s clarification was simply restating what was already an easily comprehendible post. People… Fvck!
#40: How does UZR measure OUTFIELDERS? (As an aside, if you hate the stat, just watch F-Goot PLAY. He is the best defensive outfielder in the majors.)
#6: I am allergic to straw.
#4: http://deadon.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/rabbit_pancake.jpg
@4 – If you think Joe’s writing is getting old go the fvck away. Many others don’t. If you think it’s rambling, go the fvck away. Many other don’t. Chances are, if you like a writer, he’s terrible and/or wrong.
While I assumed Adam Jones got a gold gold over Franklin Gutierrez because of offense, the numbers don’t support that case
Gutierrez- .283/.339/.425, 18 HR, 70 RBI, 103 OPS+
Jones- .277/.335/.457, 19 HR, 70 RBI, 106 OPS+
@VoiceofUnreason — could you provide me with some information about what a Woozle is, what it is designed to quantify, and how it is measured or calculated? I will need to know something about Woozles if I am going to determine how right or wrong they are.
The gold glove is about sensationalism. It’s not about bringing it every single game and making the smart throw to keep a runner from advancing or backing up a liner that the center fielder flubs (yes my word.)
It’s about making those big plays, going back to the wall and robbing home runs (Torri/Jones) and having the entire west coast in awe over how a guy that thin and wirey can throw from right to third and get some of the speediest runners by over 5 feet (ask Chone Figgins) coming from 2nd base.
It’s not about consistency that pads those defensive numbers, it’s about the big play.
I live in Seattle. I kept hearing about how good Gutierez is, but didn’t make it to any games because of my sons baseball etc. But toward the end of the year I got to a couple of games.
Television and stats really don’t do justice to Gutierez’s abilities. I have never seen an outfielder anticipate, read, and run down a ball like him. You really have to see it. He covers enourmous amounts of ground and gets a result out of it.
@46 Outside the Box:
Watch it: I’m not sure I can stomach those anti-Scooter slurs. . . .
http://www.checkoutmycards.com/CardImages/Cards/049/184/04F.jpg
As #31 shows people are still misunderstanding the Yankees post.
@4 Are you kidding me? Slamming the writer of his blog for what he has chosen to write? Especially when it’s the Poz?
Um…don’t read it maybe? Keep your comments to yourself? Or just F off. That should do.
Not to be so negative, but really? C’mon man!
to #40: i played in college. played in the minors. i would listen to a statistician tell me about baseball any day rather than a “baseball person.” “Baseball people” are largely uneducated, uninformed, and ignorant. You can go ahead and follow them if you’d like, be the game is evolving past them and you at this point. And it’s a lot better for it.
That world was once flat too.
Joe,
Thanks as always for brightening our days with your musings.
For the record, you had me at Line 10. Absolutely superb.
The gold glove awards are a joke. Once a player gets a reputation, he is voted for every year. Tori Hunter will win until he stops playing. Are you telling me that Jim Kaat was really the best fielding pitcher for 16 years? Ridiculous.
great post. I was one of the people that contributed to the conversation about the Yankees in the last post. My basic argument was “The yankees do what every fan wants their team to do.”
You addressed that beautifully here. I do think, as is the nature with the internet, that you took some unfair and off-base criticism on that post.
You are the best baseball writer in the country and I don’t think it is close.
Figured I need to give credit where credit is due if I’m going to disagree with you when I perceive you are off-base.
Yeah, how Gutierrez gets passed over for Adam Jones is preposterous, even for a person like me, who doesnt fully understand or trust the defensive stats. Even the people who watch with their eyes can’t really defend that one.
The salary cap of course does not guarantee winning, we all know that. What no salary cap does is allow teams (NY, NY, Bos, Ana, LA, CWE, CC,). to unfairly take top quality free agents off the market and away from their own teams and other teams (who would be able to pony up if there was a cap) game changing players and stockpile talent. In many cases (think Milwaukee and CC this year) if there were a cap the Brewers would have been at least able to offer a contract instead of having big market teams gobble them all up. Salary cap would also be used to impose a floor so teams like SD, Pittsburgh, etc. would not be able to shaft fans with an inferior product yet still keep lining their pockets.
Hey Travis Bickle (#40) I want you to know that I cite UZR as a primary defensive statistic, and yet I played baseball all 4 years of high school, and would have continued in college if my first impression of my college’s baseball coach wasn’t that he was a hard ass. Stop generalizing people and DON’T call me a stat geek moron. People that stereotype are morons themselves. By the way, telling the difference between a slider and a curve isn’t really that tough, especially when you know if a pitcher throws either one or both.
Also, even though I’m getting a math degree in college, I still play IM basketball, softball, and would add a couple other sports if they didn’t interfere with my schedule.
I’m sorry that you fail to admit that you’re wrong. It’s your ignorance that makes it difficult for me to read most comment sections on articles from the media.
/rant
*sigh* My apologies, everyone else. Time to return to being level-headed.
@ kevin (#57) You and I are now friends. Enjoy your free membership to my blog: http://weareoffthemark.wordpress.com
Ok, now I’m starting to regret that previous post a bit.
I agree wholeheartedly. Gutierrez is awesome.
As a Royals fan, the recent trade for Teahen made me cringe when I realize that we were offered Gutierrez and another player for Teahen last year. Sure every ball still would have gotten through the Royal’s infield, but at least after Guillen’s injury the outfield would have been stellar.
Maybe Dayton’s eyes told him that Gutierrez was not that good-the same eyes that told him Yuni was good.
Dayton, you can’t hide your lying eyes.
Hal Richman is also the guy who maddingly has given Jeter a 1 in Strato in too many years. For non-Strat geeks, a 1 is the BEST rating a player can get.
I was saddened, but not surprised with the clearly blinkered outfielder selections. Mariner fans love, love, love our beloved “Death to Flying Things.” (Having Guti, Ichiro and Endy Chavez was lovely — we had the best defensive outfield in baseball. Until Yuni collided with Endy in short left, and Endy suffered a season ending knee injury. So, so many reasons to be glad Yuni is gone. ) Talking about UZR and +/- is pointless, because most of the people that make these decisions are “baseball guys” (see #57’s comment) and don’t have any idea what those even are. And their experience with each player is severely limited. So, reputation. The Gold Gloves need to be retired, or switched to a different voter base, one that actually follows all of the game. I like the Fielding Bible. Not as pretty-sounding, but more telling.
SO, thank you, Joe, for giving voice, again, to those of us who weren’t surprised, but still disappointed, especially when the best choice was so obvious, and so clearly better than two of the guys who got the thing.
Death to Flying Things ROCKS. The rest of us know, even if the “baseball guys” don’t.
and, #65, I’m so, so sorry. I was feeling sad enough (for you, of course, not us, because Mariner fans could not have been happier) that your doofus GM took Yuni off our hands. But now to hear that you missed Guti? Seriously? How much abuse can a fanbase take? Is this some kind of sick experiment?
Though I’ve not drunk all of the sabermetric Kool-aid, I am quite enamored of the Dewan and UZR stats. I really didn’t need ‘em in the case of Gutierrez. The M’s are my home team and his exploits in center field alone were enough to keep me glued to the set all summer.
It’s always fun to follow the incessant post-series bickering between Red Sox and Yankees fans. Here’s to hoping a black hole swallows ‘em up and they have to spend eternity in hell together.
As each year goes by, it seems more and more likely that the Gold Glove voters (in general) treat their selections as though someone simply said, “name a pitcher, catcher, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS and three outfielders.”
It’s driven by offense and reputation more than anything else, and the voting SHOULD be put into the hands of people who give a damn about it. Do you really think most of the Gold Glove voters would care if they didn’t have their vote anymore? Because based on their picks EVERY SINGLE YEAR, it sure as hell doesn’t look like something they particularly care about.
And I agree with Tweety [#8] that not enough has been made of Jeter winning the Hank Aaron Award. I’d LOVE to see Aaron ask MLB to remove his name from the award unless they make changes to get the voting right.
There’s no way in hell Jeter deserved it over Mauer, but somehow he managed to do so. I think we should just do away with the suspense and hand Jeter the AL and NL MVP awards, the AL Cy Young, NL Rolaids Relief Man Award, the Vezina Trophy as the NHL’s best goalie, the Nobel Prize in Literature and the Golden Globe for Best Cinematography. I mean, we’re just giving him everything this year, aren’t we?
Oh, and in winning his second Hank Aaron Award, Jeter remained tied with Pujols, who also won his second such award this year. Yep. That’s right. Albert’s only won twice. Last year, he lost out to Aramis Ramirez (!)
[...] advantage, somewhat obscured by baseball’s 3-tier playoff structure (some follow-up comments here), while Apple blogger Jon Gruber thinks the Yankees are just trying to win, which is more than can [...]
[...] recommend reading this Joe Posnanski piece on how ridiculous the Gold Glove voting can be.* However, the article is not my point. Rather, [...]
It’s easy. You’re in Seattle and you have to be defensive. There shouldn’t even be a vote. P.S. I love Seattle! What’s wrong with that?
Joe, you really are a nice guy to go out of your way to explain to Yankee fans things you obviously didn’t state. I just would’ve told them to shut up and stop whining! You’re team won the WS, why on earth are you seeking some kind of validation?!
@#52:
“The gold glove is about sensationalism.”
“It’s about making those big plays…”
“It’s not about consistency that pads those defensive numbers, it’s about the big play.”
it seems to me that you are implying that the argument for gutierrez’s gold glove snub is based largely on his reputation for “consistency” and “reliability” in the field, but that he didn’t make as many “big”or “sensational” plays as the players who DID win gold gloves.
that sentiment alone is proof enough for me that you must not have spent much time actually watching gutierrez play this year. which i don’t blame you for, as seattle is pretty under the radar as far at the media is concerned.
however, i actually attended 15 mariner home games this year (during which the mariners were 12-3, with 5 walk-off hits, thank you very much! i should petition jack z for some complimentary season tickets next year!). i also listened to many more games on the radio, and watched the video highlights from nearly every game on the mariners’ official mlb website almost every night before bed. you’ll just have to TRUST ME when i say that gutierrez made at least as many, and i’m sure more “sensational” plays than any other center fielder in the american league. it seemed like every other game he was making some play that defied human ability.
in all honesty, i don’t recall him making all that many assists from the outfield (unlike ichiro, who almost makes it his specialty), so i don’t know how his arm ranks. however, as stated by others prior on this thread, he can track down a ball better than, and cover more ground than, pretty much any outfielder in the game. seeing it in person is truly an amazing thing to witness, and would seriously alter your view of his worthiness of a gold glove.
i say perhaps it was his ability to cover more ground than the average outfielder that simply made his catches appear easier, and thus “less flashy”, than other fielders making similar plays. not to say the he didn’t make many “flashy” plays either, because i can recall many diving catches, several over-the-shoulders, and at least one over-the-wall catch.
the guti play i remember most vividly from this year was on a ball he didn’t even catch, because it popped out of his glove when he collided running (and leaping) full speed into the center field wall (which wasn’t padded btw, because it was a section that contained a score board, and was covered with metal grating instead). amazingly, he only missed two games from that collision. in interviews he said that he knew the wall was close, but that he had a good read on the ball and didn’t want to give up on it, because he knew doing so would’ve allowed two runs to score. the two runs did score, because he couldn’t hold on, but there were so many more times when he didn’t have to slam recklessly into walls in order to save runs from scoring, and usually did save them.
i don’t know much about UZR and many of the other more modern fielding ratings… however, based on the dozens of times in 2009 that i witnessed (firsthand or through media coverage) franklin gutierrez single-handedly save a runs from scoring, i am not at all surprised that he lead everyone else in those categories. and for me it only lends legitimacy to those statistics as being fair representations of a fielder’s abilities/contributions in the field.
Regardless of all that, you cannot drive in an RBI. You drive in runs. People who write for a living should be able to discern the difference.
[...] was the biggest snub in the Gold Glove voting? I agree with Joe Posnanski. Oh, and Rob Neyer, too. It’s just one of the many reasons why I don’t take Gold Glove [...]
“he seems awesome” factor. C’mon. Why even write the article.
Out of curiosity, where did the Royal’s starting lineup fit in UZR and Dewan? Were they really as bad a defensive team as it seemed? Or was it the inverse of the “awesome factor”?
Simple solution; For all MLB awards that are voted on by writers, the votes MUST be made public, so these LAZY writers have to defend their selections. If they have to defend their selections, they might actually put some thought into it, and maybe, just maybe consider more than offensive ability or fielding percentage.
The 2007 Colorado Rockies swept their way to the World Series and set a new team defensive MLB record. Guess how many Gold Gloves were won by that team? Exactly zero, none, zip! The Gold Glove and all the MLB awards are a joke, and a way to add sponsorship money to the rich owners coffers.
I’d like to sum up the last two weeks by pointing out that Joe is a communist who hates Derek Jeter for being so classy. Also, I can’t read.
Joe — I really liked your screed about the Yankees payroll. You’re right about the payroll and you’re right that it’s been going on so long that people have forgotten about it too much. Well done. — Peter
The managers/coaches vote on the GG. Too many are not going to look at new defensive stats. But one thing they should have considered: the Mariners have 2 center fielders. They probably put the better one in center, and moved the other one. So if I think Ichiro is one of the three best OFs, then I should trust the Mariners and believe that Gutierrez is even better.
This year Matt Kemp made the most spectacular outfield play I’ve seen since Kevin Mitchell bare handed a fly ball*. He mirrored Willie Mays’ play, dead over his head, running full speed away, snagging it as he reached the warning track. And in some respects it was tougher than Mays’ play, because Kemp didn’t have 451 feet of empty space out there; he had to worry about running into the wall. I didn’t see Kemp’s play make anybody’s list of best fielding plays of the year, but I’m sure the Gold Glove voters had that in mind when they picked him.
I didn’t say best plays, I said most spectacular. Mitchell’s play was a screwup; he overran the ball into foul territory and had to twist back to catch it. A good left fielder would have gloved it easily. But it was still spectacular.
So I’ve got to ask, Joe: why no NL GG love?
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