Comments on: Hall of Fame Thoughts http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/08/hall-of-fame-thoughts/ A Rough Draft Blog Sun, 14 Mar 2010 21:35:38 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Random Hot News » Blog Archive » darrell gwynn crash video http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/08/hall-of-fame-thoughts/#comment-95386 Random Hot News » Blog Archive » darrell gwynn crash video Sat, 23 Jan 2010 22:31:25 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/08/hall-of-fame-thoughts/#comment-95386 [...] Yes click the video below and you will be able … http://www.deuceofdavenport.com/ Joe Posnanski » Blog Archive » Hall of Fame Thoughts Nov 8, 2009 Edgar Martinez's career average is .312 — since the end of World War II (not [...] [...] Yes click the video below and you will be able … http://www.deuceofdavenport.com/ Joe Posnanski » Blog Archive » Hall of Fame Thoughts Nov 8, 2009 Edgar Martinez's career average is .312 — since the end of World War II (not [...]

]]> By: Boochie http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/08/hall-of-fame-thoughts/#comment-91869 Boochie Tue, 29 Dec 2009 00:20:30 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/08/hall-of-fame-thoughts/#comment-91869 Hall Of Fame "voting" is about as accurate a measurement tool, in terms of a player's/pitcher's candidacy, as batting average is for judging a hitter's value. As a point of reference... PLAYER X - 10 season span .325/.435/.558 910 RBI 865 RS 231 HR 367 2B 1.17 BB:K ratio 159 OPS+ Pretty impressive, yes? PLAYER X (the same guy) - 7 season span .329/.446/.574 773 RBI 698 RS 196 HR 291 2B 1.18 BB:K ratio 163 OPS+ This guy is one of just five - FIVE - batters in MLB history with 2,000 hits, a .300/.400/.500 career line, 1,000 RBI, 1,000 runs scored, 1,000 walks, 300 HR, and 500 2B. He was a seven-time All-Star, a two time batting champion, a four-time Sliver Slugger, and the league re-named the DH award after him. His name is Edgar Martinez, and he is arguably the best RH hitter of his generation. Punishing him because he wasn't a crappy first baseman for a dozen seasons is lunacy. Additionally, Frank Thomas is a HOF ballplayer. Those two hitters revolutionized how we all viewed the designated hitter rule, whether we agree wih it or not. They were, without question, the two best RH batters of the 1990's. Isn't the Hall Of Fame pretty much designed to showcase the best of the best? If so, then Papi (the real Papi, not the one in Bah-stun) and Big Hurt are undoubtedly deserving. Anyone who suggests otherwise simply never got to see them at the plate, and that's all there really is to say about that. Hall Of Fame “voting” is about as accurate a measurement tool, in terms of a player’s/pitcher’s candidacy, as batting average is for judging a hitter’s value.

As a point of reference…

PLAYER X – 10 season span

.325/.435/.558
910 RBI
865 RS
231 HR
367 2B
1.17 BB:K ratio
159 OPS+

Pretty impressive, yes?

PLAYER X (the same guy) – 7 season span

.329/.446/.574
773 RBI
698 RS
196 HR
291 2B
1.18 BB:K ratio
163 OPS+

This guy is one of just five – FIVE – batters in MLB history with 2,000 hits, a .300/.400/.500 career line, 1,000 RBI, 1,000 runs scored, 1,000 walks, 300 HR, and 500 2B.

He was a seven-time All-Star, a two time batting champion, a four-time Sliver Slugger, and the league re-named the DH award after him.

His name is Edgar Martinez, and he is arguably the best RH hitter of his generation.

Punishing him because he wasn’t a crappy first baseman for a dozen seasons is lunacy. Additionally, Frank Thomas is a HOF ballplayer. Those two hitters revolutionized how we all viewed the designated hitter rule, whether we agree wih it or not. They were, without question, the two best RH batters of the 1990’s.

Isn’t the Hall Of Fame pretty much designed to showcase the best of the best? If so, then Papi (the real Papi, not the one in Bah-stun) and Big Hurt are undoubtedly deserving. Anyone who suggests otherwise simply never got to see them at the plate, and that’s all there really is to say about that.

]]> By: Links for 11/9/09 « Jason's Baseball Blog http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/08/hall-of-fame-thoughts/#comment-90526 Links for 11/9/09 « Jason's Baseball Blog Wed, 16 Dec 2009 19:21:42 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/08/hall-of-fame-thoughts/#comment-90526 [...] Posnanski has a great (and self-admittedly long) post about some of the best eligible hitters not yet in the Hall of Fame. Joe has a Hall of Fame vote, so I think it gives a little perspective into his next [...] [...] Posnanski has a great (and self-admittedly long) post about some of the best eligible hitters not yet in the Hall of Fame. Joe has a Hall of Fame vote, so I think it gives a little perspective into his next [...]

]]> By: tk http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/08/hall-of-fame-thoughts/#comment-86793 tk Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:16:54 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/08/hall-of-fame-thoughts/#comment-86793 Continuing the above (#134) Williams: H:302 /.374/ .525 245 HR A:. 278/ .349/ .459 181 HR Santo: H: .296/.383/.522 216 HR A: .257/.342/.406 126 HR I have wondered whether there is a reason why Santo did worse than his Hall of Fame teammates on the road. If there is a "Wrigley advantage" one might expect it to be relatively constant among players playing at the same time. It was not in this instance. Continuing the above (#134)
Williams:
H:302 /.374/ .525 245 HR
A:. 278/ .349/ .459 181 HR

Santo:
H: .296/.383/.522 216 HR
A: .257/.342/.406 126 HR

I have wondered whether there is a reason why Santo did worse than his Hall of Fame teammates on the road. If there is a “Wrigley advantage” one might expect it to be relatively constant among players playing at the same time. It was not in this instance.

]]> By: tk http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/08/hall-of-fame-thoughts/#comment-86791 tk Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:07:22 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/08/hall-of-fame-thoughts/#comment-86791 Re # 65: Using away stats in this manner is unfair, unless you are willing to do so across the board. Here are three recent BBWAA inductees. Three are outfielders and one is an infielder. Anyone want to guess who they are? Player A: .264/.357/.422 Player B: .302/.387/.395 Player C: .291/.331/.430 Player D: .277 /.330/.459 These are all road lines. Mel Ott had over 500 career home rums, but only 188 on the road. Hank Greenberg hit 79 more homers at home than on the road. Player A is Yastrrzemski, Player B is Boggs, Player C is Puckett and Player D is Jim Rice. The point is, hardly anyone goes back and seeks to do this type of normalization for these players. Ott was a hell of a hitter, and was good enough to get in anyway, but a lot of players would not get in if you only looked at their road statistics. In Santo's case, it is interesting that he was a contemporary of two HOF members, Williams and Banks, one of whom batted left and the other right. All three had a home advantage in their stats, but Santo had a more significant difference than the other two. It is also interesting that Santo's road performance got relatively worse as he aged, becoming much worse from 1968 onward. Banks: H: .290 .349 .538 289 HR A: .258/.311/.461 221 HR Williams: H: Re # 65:

Using away stats in this manner is unfair, unless you are willing to do so across the board. Here are three recent BBWAA inductees. Three are outfielders and one is an infielder. Anyone want to guess who they are?

Player A: .264/.357/.422
Player B: .302/.387/.395
Player C: .291/.331/.430
Player D: .277 /.330/.459

These are all road lines.

Mel Ott had over 500 career home rums, but only 188 on the road. Hank Greenberg hit 79 more homers at home than on the road.

Player A is Yastrrzemski, Player B is Boggs, Player C is Puckett and Player D is Jim Rice.

The point is, hardly anyone goes back and seeks to do this type of normalization for these players. Ott was a hell of a hitter, and was good enough to get in anyway, but a lot of players would not get in if you only looked at their road statistics.

In Santo’s case, it is interesting that he was a contemporary of two HOF members, Williams and Banks, one of whom batted left and the other right. All three had a home advantage in their stats, but Santo had a more significant difference than the other two. It is also interesting that Santo’s road performance got relatively worse as he aged, becoming much worse from 1968 onward.

Banks:
H: .290 .349 .538 289 HR
A: .258/.311/.461 221 HR

Williams:
H:

]]> By: Ben http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/08/hall-of-fame-thoughts/#comment-86633 Ben Mon, 16 Nov 2009 00:26:00 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/08/hall-of-fame-thoughts/#comment-86633 "John Hirshbeck called [Alomar] a 'Spic mother****'" Is this true? If so, it certainly puts the spitting incident in a different light, at least for me... “John Hirshbeck called [Alomar] a ‘Spic mother****’”

Is this true? If so, it certainly puts the spitting incident in a different light, at least for me…

]]> By: Snowman http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/08/hall-of-fame-thoughts/#comment-86549 Snowman Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:33:09 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/08/hall-of-fame-thoughts/#comment-86549 "But oh, that spitting incident, I could never look at Alomar the same way after that." Quite frankly, I never blamed him one bit. John Hirshbeck called him a "Spic mother****er." He deserved to be spat upon. And then the very next season, he called Hideki Irabu a "slant-eyed mother****er" in a regular season game. And while Alomar's reputation was forever tarnished, Hirschbeck received not one single iota of punishment for either offense. Must be nice to be completely untouchable at your job. I would hope most of us would put it to better use than to regularly throw racial slurs at our co-workers, though. “But oh, that spitting incident, I could never look at Alomar the same way after that.”

Quite frankly, I never blamed him one bit. John Hirshbeck called him a “Spic mother****er.” He deserved to be spat upon.

And then the very next season, he called Hideki Irabu a “slant-eyed mother****er” in a regular season game. And while Alomar’s reputation was forever tarnished, Hirschbeck received not one single iota of punishment for either offense.

Must be nice to be completely untouchable at your job. I would hope most of us would put it to better use than to regularly throw racial slurs at our co-workers, though.

]]> By: Mark Daniel http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/08/hall-of-fame-thoughts/#comment-86497 Mark Daniel Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:01:22 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/08/hall-of-fame-thoughts/#comment-86497 Edgar Martinez has a tough battle to get into the HoF. He was primarily a DH and he never got 3000 hits or 500 HR. I think HoF voters look for several things for these "borderline" candidates: 1. Longevity 2. MVP/Cy Young & All star appearances 3. Leading the league 4. Good batting average The perfect borderline candidate who got into the HoF is Jim Rice. He got in on his 15th try, and by a handful of votes. If that's not borderline, I don't know what is. Jim Rice had decent longevity, as evidenced by 2452 hits. He won an MVP and made 8 all-star appearances. He led the league in HR 3 times, RBI twice, hits once, triples once, SLG 3 times and total bases 4 times. And his lifetime BA was .298. Consider that a guide on minimum qualifications for entrance into the HoF. Edgar Martinez had decent longevity (2247 hits), he has no MVP but he was a 7-time all-star, he has a .312 career BA, and he led the league in BA twice, RBI once, runs once, doubles twice and OBP three times. I can't see why anyone would not vote Edgar in. He's got everything voters want out of borderline candidates, and on top of that his career OPS+ of 147 is stellar. Note: I'm not saying the voters are correct in assessing players this way, they just appear to assess players this way. Edgar Martinez has a tough battle to get into the HoF. He was primarily a DH and he never got 3000 hits or 500 HR. I think HoF voters look for several things for these “borderline” candidates:
1. Longevity
2. MVP/Cy Young & All star appearances
3. Leading the league
4. Good batting average
The perfect borderline candidate who got into the HoF is Jim Rice. He got in on his 15th try, and by a handful of votes. If that’s not borderline, I don’t know what is.
Jim Rice had decent longevity, as evidenced by 2452 hits. He won an MVP and made 8 all-star appearances. He led the league in HR 3 times, RBI twice, hits once, triples once, SLG 3 times and total bases 4 times. And his lifetime BA was .298. Consider that a guide on minimum qualifications for entrance into the HoF.
Edgar Martinez had decent longevity (2247 hits), he has no MVP but he was a 7-time all-star, he has a .312 career BA, and he led the league in BA twice, RBI once, runs once, doubles twice and OBP three times. I can’t see why anyone would not vote Edgar in. He’s got everything voters want out of borderline candidates, and on top of that his career OPS+ of 147 is stellar.
Note: I’m not saying the voters are correct in assessing players this way, they just appear to assess players this way.

]]> By: G Young http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/08/hall-of-fame-thoughts/#comment-86477 G Young Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:12:16 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/08/hall-of-fame-thoughts/#comment-86477 Two things. First, when Edgar Martinez doesn't make the HOF I will be done with the institution. It will no longer be relevant. Second, it is a complete falsehood to say Fred McGriff played in the high scoring 90's. Before the post-strike explosion, Fred McGriff was making history as only the 9th player to hit 30 or more HRs in seven consecutive seasons. That streak ended in 1994, prior to the offensive explosion of the 90's. Fred McGriff was a power hitter before the 90's explosion, not during. It is a complete myth that his numbers are tarnished by that era, and it is unfortunate that his candidacy is going to be viewed through a faulty lens. Two things.

First, when Edgar Martinez doesn’t make the HOF I will be done with the institution. It will no longer be relevant.

Second, it is a complete falsehood to say Fred McGriff played in the high scoring 90’s.

Before the post-strike explosion, Fred McGriff was making history as only the 9th player to hit 30 or more HRs in seven consecutive seasons. That streak ended in 1994, prior to the offensive explosion of the 90’s.

Fred McGriff was a power hitter before the 90’s explosion, not during. It is a complete myth that his numbers are tarnished by that era, and it is unfortunate that his candidacy is going to be viewed through a faulty lens.

]]> By: Nick Whitman http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/08/hall-of-fame-thoughts/#comment-86442 Nick Whitman Fri, 13 Nov 2009 09:43:45 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/08/hall-of-fame-thoughts/#comment-86442 Mattingly? Seriously? With no mention of Dwight Evans at all? Ridiculous. Mattingly is incredibly overrated by people's warm memories of him. If we're judging HOF players on how happy they make us feel as well as how good they were, I want Fred Lynn in as soon as possible. Mattingly? Seriously? With no mention of Dwight Evans at all? Ridiculous. Mattingly is incredibly overrated by people’s warm memories of him. If we’re judging HOF players on how happy they make us feel as well as how good they were, I want Fred Lynn in as soon as possible.

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