Self Reviews
Posted: October 14th, 2009 | Filed under: Baseball, Pop Culture | 97 Comments »
You’ve probably heard the Ricky Gervais bit where he reads from the book of Genesis. Great bit … my favorite part is when he talks about the phrase “God saw the light and saw that it was good.”
“Well, no, it is good,” Gervais said. “But … you know … we’d all like to write our own reviews.”
I was thinking about this when I read this interesting piece by Stan Hochman on Tim McCarver. You probably also know that McCarver released an album, an apparently serious album, called “Tim McCarver Sings Selections from the Great American Songbook.” He sings various standards such as One for My Baby and On a Clear Day and I Wish I Were in Love Again. Yes, Tim McCarver. The baseball announcer. Yeah.
I have my own view of McCarver because when I was in high school, one of my best friend was a huge Mets fan, and he was the only person I knew who had a satellite dish. So we would listen to McCarver night after night, and maybe it’s just the blur of memory and nostalgia — but I remember thinking he was damned good, the best color commentator I had ever heard on baseball. Seemed like every single time he said anything, I learned something. A new story. An interesting piece of strategy. An insider tip. Loved the guy.
And … it is human nature to cling to your beliefs even in the face of harsh evidence. McCarver himself is a great example of that. I refuse to accept that Robert DeNiro is not America’s greatest actor, even if he has spent the last 10 years or so making movies like Analyze That and Righteous Kill and The Adventure of Rocky and Bullwinkle and 15 Minutes. And so when people started saying how much they disliked Tim McCarver’s announcing, honestly, I found myself at a loss. Really? I started listening to him more closely. Well, yes, I suppose that as I listened more closely, yes, I could hear what they were complaining about. I could hear that McCarver will use a lot of words to say something fairly simple and obvious. I could hear him making mistakes and then spending the next three innings correcting his mistakes (and correcting his corrections). I could hear him saying inane things — like the time he said that only he cared about on-base percentage if a player could run* or his remarkable Mark Wohlberg moment.
*It really and truly astonishes me how many people — great players, big league managers, famed broadcasters — believe something along these lines: That players who can’t run should stay off the bases because they only clog them up, that the only people who should walk are speedies, that on-base percentage somehow only measures a players refusal to swing at pitches. You know, batting average makes up anywhere from about 52% (in the case of the famed Eddie “The Walking Man” Yost) to 85% (in the case of Garret “I’ll take a cab instead” Anderson) of on-base percentage. As a whole, batting average makes makes up about 70% of on base percentage. That’s a lot. To have a good on-base percentage, you have to be a good hitter. It doesn’t work any other way. The imaginary player who can’t hit but somehow manages to get on base a lot through various forms of witchcraft and black magic is just that: Imaginary. Also the concept that players can really clog the bases is ludicrous … I mean the bases are 90 feet apart. How many runners can the Molinas possibly hold up in a season?
But more, I wish anyone who say stuff like this would think about what they are really saying. They are saying slow players should stay off the bases. Just stay off. Slow players should swing wildly at more or less every pitch — walking ain’t helping the club Chubby! Slowpokes should hit .052 with no walks, and all their hits should be home runs. They might be allowed an occasional sac fly too. And productive outs. That’s how you win! They are saying that unless you are a certain kind of player, outs are better than walks, an extra bleeding single is worth the weight of 10 walks or 100 — so go down swinging! I could be wrong — I’m probably wrong — but it seems to me that the only reason people would say stuff this ludicrous is because they want to believe in something — men being men, walks are the failure of the pitcher, hits are the only way to reckon the worth of a man.
So, yes, I can certainly understand why Tim McCarver gets hammered as much as he does. But I can’t dislike him as much as others do. I just can’t. I still can hear the announcer I first heard with the Mets, the announcer who sparked my interest and made me look at the game differently. Sometimes, it’s only a whisper. But I just tend to think of McCarver as a favorite uncle who, you know, has run out of stories to tell (but keeps on telling them).
That, however, does not explain McCarver butchering “A Nightingale Sang in Berkely Square,” which had been one of my favorite standards. I feel like I now need to go listen to the Frank Sinatra, Nat King Cole, Bobby Darin, Carmen McRae and Tony Bennett versions back to back to back to back to back just to get that sound out of my head. I mean, hey, I’m all for a man who wants to follow his dreams no matter how crazy they may be. But … well, I suppose I shouldn’t have listened?
Anyway, I didn’t want to go on this long. The real point of this was to say that, like Gervais says, we all wish we could self review. But if you get a self-review, take advantage of it. McCarver gives his album a self-review in the interview that I think stands as a classic … and really says just about everything there is to say.
He said: “It’s not Michael Feinstein. But it’s better than ‘not bad.’”
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“Tim McCarver has been panned for his new album but says, ‘If I don’t listen to the critics of my baseball broadcasting, why would I listen to the critics of my singing?’”
I have to admire that statement from Tim. Why worry about what others think? Instead of sitting at home doing nothing, he calls ball games, has a tv show and makes records. We should all be so lucky.
All of that said, I’d rather listen to my cat scrape his litter tray for 3 hours than listen to Tim call a game.
I grew up thinking that Steve Stone was the best TV guy in the world. Every time he called a pitch, or a strategic move, he was correct about 98.7% of the time.
McCarver is better than Joe Morgan, he’s better than Rick Sutcliffe, he’s better than Steve Phillips.
For all the criticism of him, he’s hardly the worst out there.
That article glosses over the criticisms of McCarver. It isn’t just that he talks too much (he does), or that he favors a specific team (I doubt it – FOX favors specific teams, sure, but not the on-air “talent”), but rather that the things he said are very dumb, sometimes incoherent, and all-too-often ignorant about what is actually important in a baseball game.
And, like many former-player analysts, he views his own time as a perfect, golden time and finds the modern game coming up short by comparison. This is what bothers me most of all, all these nostalgic old farts. You know what? Mickey Mantle isn’t playing this year. Albert Pujols is. Derek Jeter is. Roy Halladay is. Those are the guys I am tuning in to watch. I’d like to hear about them.
I realize that baseball has its head in its own ass about history, and I appreciate history. But I don’t need history to enjoy the playoffs, or a mid-August Blue Jays-Orioles game, for that matter. I just need the baseball I see before me.
Roger Angell also thought McCarver was very good when he was with the Mets.
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/1999/09/06/1999_09_06_028_TNY_LIBRY_000018984
Re: the Prize giveaway poll. I’ve been reading the archives and you promised 5 copies of Michael Rosenberg’s book “War as They Knew It” to the responses in the reverse interview (Sept. 10, 2008). There’s some good stuff in the comments but who were the winners?
“How many runners can the Molinas possibly hold up in a season?”
Good God, Joe, don’t challenge them!
Jim K, I won one of the books. I don’t think Joe ever wrote about it, I just got an email from Michael Rosenberg.
On the topic, it seems to me that if McCarver or Joe Morgan ever admitted that OBP was truely more important than batting average, then it would imply that maybe the stat geeks actually know more about baseball than the former players. And if the stat geeks know more than the former players, then why are we listening to former players do the color commentary? Why not just replace all these guys with sabermetricians? I think it’s kind of a form of self preservation. The former ballplayers claim to have a wisdom that can’t be found in these advanced stats, so that’s why we need to continue to listen to them talk about the game.
Congrats Logan. I’d liked your question.
I think the ultimate Tim McCarver quote is from Game 7 of the 2001 World Series, in the bottom of the 9th inning, when the D-Backs mounted an awesome game-winning comeback against Mariano Rivera and the Yankees. This is one of my favorite baseball moments of all time, but whenever I go back to watch it, I have to hear:
“Catchers have a hard time catching the knuckleball; hitters have a hard time hitting the knuckleball; and hitters have a hard time bunting against Mariano Rivera.”
It’s almost like a Zen koan or something.
Was McCarver the announcer who was surprised that more multi-run innings start off with a home run than with a walk? Whoever it was, I believe they actually had an intern look at the data to determine that, yes, leadoff home runs lead to more multi-run innings than leadoff walks.
I don’t think crusty old baseball people think slow players should just stay off the bases. I think what they mean is that a high OBP from a slow guy is not as valuable as one from a fast guy. Maybe they also mean that a high OBP from a fatass is equal, after adjusting for speed, to a little bit lower OBP from a speed guy. I buy that argument.
Sheesh. Who needs announcers? You can watch the game while you have music playing and enjoy it as much, if not more than listening to some talking head describe what you just saw with your own eyes. Am I wrong?
I just heard McCarver’s album and it shocked me. His voice isn’t really all that bad. I didn’t initially believe that I was hearing him sing because I’ve found his broadcasting voice to be craggly and annoying. I was expecting a a singing voice akin to sandpaper. But he’s got a smooth voice.
I agree about McCarver. His voice, like Madden’s is to “big time football,” just makes me feel like I’m watching a big game.
And like you, Joe, I have a memory of him that makes me look past his “goofyness.”
I was 17 and working in the box office of a movie theater in Stuart, Fla., in spring 1999, when on a random Tuesday or something an older gentleman walks up by himself, cigar in hand, and orders a single ticket to Clint Eastwood’s “True Crime.”
I look at him, and I think to myself that he looks a whole lot like Tim McCarver. But, I don’t want to be wrong, so I don’t say anything.
Then he pays for his ticket with a credit card with the name “JAMES T McCARVER” on it.
So, now with all the evidence I need, I say, “Are you Tim McCarver?”
And this man, shoves the stogie into his mouth and through gritted teeth says, “How you doing, kid? Is this movie any good?”
It was like it was in an old-time movie or something, or maybe even Newsies. I mean, “How you doing, kid?” Every cold-blooded young fan of baseball dreams to have somebody — anybody — from the big leagues ask them that questions.
We talked for a little bit about the merits of Eastwood’s work, and I find out that he was in nearby Jupiter, Fla., earlier that day doing some Spring Training work for the Cardinals.
It was just a little slice of life in my otherwise mundane high school job, but it’s stuck with me ever since. I’ve still got that credit card receipt somewhere, too.
I could not agree more, Joe. I live in NYC, and when McCarver first joined the Mets’ broadcast team, I thought he was the greatest. He broke down plays, had a sense of humor, and, most importantly, brought Ralph Kiner back to life. (Kiner had been sleepwalking through games for the past couple of seasons, telling stories about the Pirates when the Giants were playing, but snapped out of his trance when Tim arrived. The two of them had great chemistry.)
My only complaint with McCarver in his glory days was that he dumbed down his broadcasts when he appeared on the network, over-explaining every little thing. On local broadcasts, even after he moved over to the Yankees booth, he was much better.
But yes, over the years, I did get tired of McCarver. Same old stories, same pet peeves about pitchers wearing jackets on the bases. I think maybe announcers have shelf lives; I used to love Madden but one day felt he was just a caricature.
Still, like Joe, I find myself defending McCarver, and every so often I’ll turn on a game and not be annoyed by him (especially if someone is filling in for Joe Buck). The one thing I hate is when people accuse him of bias–especially when they say he loves the Yanks, Mets, or Red Sox, all of whom unceremoniously dumped him at one point or another. I do think Tim loves the game and knows the game, and still has something to offer, and after watching TBS last week, I kind of look forward to hearing McCarver again.
Tim McCarver will always be my favorite announcer of all time because of how great he was with the Mets. But after being fired for being overly critical of some of Bobby Valentine’s moves, he’s never been the same. I think a lot of it has to do with only working once a week and speaking to a national audience about players he’s not as knowledgeable of were he an every day announcer for a team.
I think the point that can’t possibly be made enough to people who don’t like “advanced” stats such as on-base percentage is that if you actually think about it, on-base percentage is far and away more simple and less advanced than a stat like batting average. OBP is simply number of times on base divided by number plate appearances. What’s more simple than that? Shouldn’t a stat that systematically eliminates certain events from both the numerator and the denominator and introduces a more advanced counting number like “at-bats” by taking plate appearances and subtracting walks, hit by pitch and sacrifices be considered the more advanced statistic? I’m pretty sure that you made a similar point in a past blog post, but if someone was completely unfamiliar with baseball and you explained to them the concepts behind both batting average and on-base percentage, I’m certain the value of on-base percentage would be completely self-evident while it would take some further explanation to explain the validity of batting average and the concept of at-bats. Why do the mainstream baseball media and many fans think it’s the other way around?
I heard McCarver on ESPN Radio pimping his album and vigorously talking about how much he hates karaoke and how this wasn’t Karole and he demands to be taken seriously as a singer.
That was so funny, it made me cry while I was driving.
McCarver is baseball’s version of John Madden.
He was great in his day, but it’s time to hang it up man.
Jim- I won too. Got a lovely note and personalized inscription.
I can’t stand McCarver. I would take Joe Morgan any day of the week over McCarver. He is such a Yankee homer. Even when the Yankees aren’t even playing he can’t stop talking about them. This ALCS is going to be painful. Buck and McCarver are the worst duo in baseball.
As a guy who grew up in New York during the 80s, I have have seen two sports-media icons diminish themselves: McCarver and Mike Lupica. Like you, I really enjoyed McCarver breaking down the games. As my father used to joke, he could spend an inning explaining how the way the shoelace is tied affects a runner’s speed, and yet he’d make it somehow sound insightful. Now he’s just kind of annoying, like he stopped caring about doing the kind of work that made him a great analyst, and he’s coasting on reputation.
Similarly, I made it my business to read just about every column Lupica penned. He was an absolute must read. Now he’s just embarrassing. It seems he just uses a random column generator in order to publish. The worst part is that every column must include a non-sensical fragmented sentence that begins, “the way . . . ”
In fairness, I think Lupica has fallen further than Timmy Mac. McCarver I can at least still stomach, and he’s probably better than most color commentators – though that is probably more an indictment of the current state of baseball analysis. Lupica though is simply unreadable.
I was reading a little too fast and I thought the section “…Chubby! Slowpokes…” was “Chubby Slowpokes”, a fictional base-clogger Joe had just invented. Even though I realize my error, I do in fact wish Chubby Slowpokes was a real player. I mean, how could you NOT root for him?
I certainly understand and agree that McCarver has negatives. But one thing I like is that he seems more willing or capable than other color men at breaking down potential managerial decisions. He actually goes into detail about the pros and cons of a steal, bunt, or hit-and-run depending on the game situation, count, abilities of the hitter/runner, etc. almost every time there’s a runner on–and he talks about these options and their merits before the play happens, not strictly in reaction to them.
Not that he’s right all the time (he’s not) but it’s that kind of “Xs-and-Os”, live managing mentality that makes me have a little bit of a soft spot for him, because I love that stuff. I wish color commentary was more focused on that kind of thing instead of fluff stories (of which McCarver is prone to also).
I have a lot less tolerance for Joe Buck though.
Imus played a small bit of one of McCarver’s tunes earlier this week. That was a surprise to me. I’ve heard worse…
The big surprise to me is that McCarver used a creditcard to buy a single movie ticket..(see comment #15) He probably could get the senior/matinee rate so how much could it have been? – 5 to 7 bucks?!
I guess he wanted to cheat the Cardinals and put it on his expense account!
Oh, and I hope he was driving a Chevy!
Jonathan [#1]: I don’t think you can credit McCarver too much for ignoring his critics. He could listen to his critics and NOT just up and quit. He could always, you know, try to improve by learning new things about the game.
Richard [#24]: If I recall correctly, Chubby Slowpokes was Billy Beane’s first round draft pick in ‘01. He passed up the much more highly-touted Tools McChiselchin and THAT IS WHY MONEYBALL IS TERRIBLE!!!!!
I always loved Phil Rizzuto. He called Bill White “White”. He called Tom Seaver “Seaver”. He would constantly complain that the 2nd baseman (or shortstop) was leaving his position too early to cover 2nd on a steal attempt. And he would prattle on about any number of inane things. But, it was always very funny. And he was so genuinely excited and amazed by things that happened. I’m glad nobody saw to rip him a new one for what he said at times. I don’t recall if he deserved to be ripped, and I would like it to stay that way.
I absolutely loathe Tim McCarver, but as a Braves fan, I’ve always felt he was seriously biased against the team (not just because of the Deion incident, but that obviously feels like a driving factor.) If I recall correctly, he called the infamous Eric Gregg game with the 19 mile strike zone and it just made the game seem like a bad joke.
Not to mention that every interview I’ve ever heard from him (or about him) shows that he’s really just a pompous ass and I can’t stomach him. Bleh.
McCarver drives me nuts… although right now I’d listen to him if it meant there were more baseball to watch.
My favorite memory of a McCarver announcing goof was when he was announcing a game in which Hideki Irabu was pitching, with his famously huge leg kick. At one point a runner reaches base and McCarver goes on for several minutes about how much trouble Irabu is in with a runner on base, because his high leg kick allows too much time for runners to steal– totally ignoring the fact that, with a runner on base, Irabu is now pitching from the stretch.
Classic McCarver.
Justin at 27: Tools McChiselchin? Genius!
To #8, the problem with baseball, is baseball people. Those like Morgan, McCarver, etc. are what is ruining the game. their grip on the past and unwillingness to evolve with reality. It’s a shame really.
To #27, Moneyball was terrible? I guess. However the philosophy or establishing a concrete value to a player and not overpaying because of undefinable things like “tools” makes perfect sense. And most teams use that philosophy today. Interesting…
One of the challenges for a sportscaster is to talk at a level that educates the new fan but still respects the intelligence of the lifelong fan. Not easy, not at all. Tim McCarver’s approach is to assume that everybody watching the game is about 5 years old and has never seen a baseball game before.
If you actually pay attention to him during the upcoming playoffs, note how many times he explains very basic stuff in a way that is condescending to basically his own audience.
Happy Birthday Fellow Libra =>10/16/41
What I don’t get is that i feel like a lot of people hate Joe Buck and McCarver. I assume, as announcers, they don’t have a huge fan base. Meaning that the people that don’t hate them, just think they are ok. Why is that good for Fox? Why pay that person big bucks? It’s not politics, where if 40% hate you, maybe 45% of people love you. No, just 40% hate you. Couldn’t they just find a person that’s likable and good (costas style?). I know it’s a harder job than it looks, but is there not 4 people on Earth that people would be ok with?
in the meantime, give me Costanza:
George: Maybe I could be like, an announcer. Like a color man. You know how I always make those interesting comments during the game.
Jerry: Yeah. Yeah. You make good comments.
George: What about that?
Jerry: Well, they tend to give those jobs to ex-ballplayers and people that are, you know, in broadcasting.
George: Well, that’s really not fair.
@35: “Happy Birthday Fellow Libra =>10/16/41″
I don’t know why you posted that on 10/14, but I’m a 10/16 guy myself, 10/16/69 in fact. Happy Birthday!
@34: You nailed it. I get the feeling that either McCarver is a simpleton, or thinks his listeners are.
Joe I felt the EXACT same way about McCarver on WOR in the late 80’s and even when FOX first got baseball………..then something went HORRIBLY wrong.
#36….It may be a mistake to assume that free tv networks are well run. It’s tv…and it’s free…and people are used to watching those stations. Dead air would probably attract a decent-sized audience. How many times have you read that over the air tv stations are losing audiences to cable tv because of things like running reruns all summer, and the response of all of the over the air networks is to….continue running reruns over the summer.
My guess is that the executive of whichever network has the rights never watches baseball and once a year asks his chauffeur or doorman to name a good announcer, and he runs with the answers.
I heard that Brandon Arroyo isn’t much of a rock star, either…I guess not everybody can be a jake of all trades.
Well – Jason is clearly a McCarver, Justin wins the comments for this one….and I’m still not sure about the concept of ‘what I used to know is better than what’s around now’.
Clearly articulated – at one point I thought Ice Ice Baby was ‘music’; I was born decades after the Beatles broke up but still think they’re my favorite band; the writing of Davey Jones in ‘Bats’ wasn’t all that great; and girls aren’t icky.
If you’re oblivious to your critics, in any discipline you should be additionally criticized. If you’re bad at your job you should be replaced. The problem here is, Tim McCarver isn’t considered ‘bad’ at his job by whoever it is that keeps him employed….it just may be that my description of what his job SHOULD be differs greatly from what his job actually is…and I’ll be damned if I know what that is – is it guessing about things and hoping they relate to a baseball game generally and then, statistically sometimes, simply by default, has to be about the game being broadcast simultaneously with his rambling?
It’s no longer up on youtube, but Family Guy did a great little impression of McCarver announcing. He’s in the broadcast booth at Yankee Stadium and says:
“In my view, as good as the Yankees were in the first half of this game, that’s how as bad they’ve been now.”
“The imaginary player who can’t hit but somehow manages to get on base a lot through various forms of witchcraft and black magic is just that: Imaginary.”
Rickey Henderson 1994-2003:
4460PA 77HR .254 .392 .368
@37, re; #35
You and Mr. McCarver share a birthday.
My sister is a 10/16 also. When we were kids, I discovered that I shared a birthday with Roger Maris and she had McCarver’s .
We would write them letters, including baseball cards of other members of the Cardinals, they would send them back signed, along with a letter and autographed 5×7 glossy.
It was probably the Traveling Secretary (or some other flunkie) signing the cards and writing the letters, but at the time, I pictured them sitting around the clubhouse, doing my bidding, having Gibby, Flood and Brock sign my cards.
As much as Tim may annoy me these days while watching a game, I always cut him a lot of slack. Can’t help it.
Kevin [#33]: I was actually being facetious about Moneyball being terrible. A lot of people lamented that Beane’s strategy was to pick fat guys who walked, and the book talks about the “Good Face,” wherein some guys were overrated because they “looked like baseball players.”
I thought the name Tools McChiselchin made my point pretty obvious, but apparently not…
You know, this reminded me, how in what feels like a dream, I remembering being in 9th grade, finally getting a TV for bedroom (with an antenna, oh the dark ages) and watching NBC’s coverage of the ALDS between the Yanks and the Mariners, and how I absolutely loved their team of Bob Costas, Bob Uecker and Joe Morgan. I thought of all the national broadcasters, they were my favorite. And one day in college, I found myself watching ESPN and there was Joe Morgan, someone I thoroughly enjoyed, and I hated everything he said, and how he said it. It felt like a different man.
Oddly enough, I feel no wispy nostalgia, I don’t hear 1995 Joe Morgan. I just hear the second most grating voice calling baseball (McCarver wins! Though Ron Darling is doing a heckuva job trying to push his case.)
And, as I think about it, I think it was really just the awesomeness of Bob Uecker.
Justin [#45] sorry, needless to say I’m pretty jaded about the subject. I’m a college baseball coach and have to deal with that nonsense daily. Consider me fish out of water.
I apologize
Didnt McCarver once tell us that Jeter should be the MVP, not because of his stats, but because he is “different”?
Remember a friend and I used to have a running joke about the statement. I would respond to criticism of Jeter with something like “cut him some slack, he’s ‘different’ you know – cerebral palsy, I believe” to which he would come back with something to the effect of “he meant ‘different’ as in ’sent from the Gods above’. And I’m sorry, but I expect better from the descendants of Gods.”
(come to think of it, I sure hope that was McCarver – if not, I have given him a couple years worth of grief over someone elses idiotic statement. )
Justin @ 45
I gave you an OFQ* of .995 — Tools McChiselchin is up there with the Mighty Casey.
*observable facetiousness quotient
McCarver doesn’t offend me. But I would rather listen to Vin Scully than watch the game with any other announcer. Less than ten hours until the first pitch, I’d better get to bed.
I may not like Mccarver at this point, but I can still listen to him. However I cannot say the same for Joe Buck. Whether it is baseball or football, he will make me turn the sound down. He may be the worst #1 announcer in the history of broadcasting.
McCarver was very good once upon a time (and is, by all accounts, a great guy). And De Niro was the greatest living American actor once upon a time.
And while we’re at it, Elvis became a fat joke singing pop crap. Eddie Murphy became a guy who thinks putting on a dress and a fat suit and pretending to fart was high-larious. Really, you can name directors, actors, authors, singers, or anything else creative who were great young and much less so when they got older all day long and still miss some.
There’s a reason James Dean became such an iconic figure after only three movies. We never suffered through his decline phase.
We can’t all be Pete Caldera! But of course, I too remember thinking McCarver was so good! Even up until about 10 years ago, when they put Joe Buck with him, and I thought – ‘this Buck kid should shut up and let the man talk.’ Now all I can do is hope Buck will stop him before he says anything too insane!
McCarver was great. I watched him, as a Met fan, on WWOR back in the day. Loved him. But he began to believe in his own hype, highlighted by the “you’re a real man, Deion” run in. Much like Deniro started mailing in movies, McCarver started mailing in games.
Interestingly, as much as I’ve grown to loathe McCarver’s work, I’d rather listen to him than any of the stiffs TBS threw at us. And, like rubbernecking at a car accident, I WILL be tuned in to TBS to hear Chip Caray, because I refuse to believe, even by osmosis, he wouldn’t be even half-palatable.
And, Bobby A #2, Steve Stone was and is really good in that sense, at predicting the future. He makes me feel smarter. Joe Morgan, by comparison, makes me feel like an idiot, which is, I’m pretty sure, his goal.
I am okay with Joe Buck and his style. I’m also not a big fan but he does not turn me off. However, I read so many livid complaints about him that I wonder if I am losing it. He has a good sense of humor and seems comfortable behind the mic.
Sure, he’s nowhere near his father as a sportscaster, but many of us don’t measure up to our dads. What am I missing?
ANYBODY is better than Joe Morgan!
Huge Joe fan -Long Time troller – forced to comment so I can use this wonderful new name -Thanks Joe.
I’m doing two things to prepare for Friday night when Joe Buck comes on and says “Welcome to the American League AL…CS. I’m Joe Buck. Tim McCarver will be along shortly (shoulder is visible).”
1. Making a 3-4 hour iPod playlist.
2. Lining my living room with rubber and pillows in case my mute button won’t work.
Hate. Them.
Does Joe Buck remind any of you of the rich kid down the steet driving his Dad’s convertable and trying desperately to fit in? Think Eddie Haskell with a lounge singers voice and cadence all crammed into to Tim Conway’s head? Anyone? …is this thing on?
Sure someone has made this point above, but in re:
“How many runners can the Molinas possibly hold up in a season?”
Not many, because they never get on base.
Agreed, Chubby S. Put another way, almost everything he says has a “Hey! Guys! Listen to me! Ya hear what I just said? Wasn’t that great? How talented am I?!” vibe to it. If you want to experience that same thing before baseball starts, you can always tune into 810 WHB after 2:00pm each day.
@57
That’s kind of the problem. I agree Buck is “OK.” But the guy who’s calling some of the premier sporting events in the world (World Series, NFL playoffs) should be better than OK. He should be outstanding.
But that’s nepotism for you.
So what sportscaster/play by play guy today is “outstanding”? I just do not know of many (or any?). I once liked Costas a great deal but he’s become such a whiner about how “MLB isn’t what it once was” that his act can get very old. Of course, NBC doesn’t have MLB anymore so it hardly matters.
If you guys think Joe Buck is not good enough to do MLB playoffs and the WS for FOX then go back to many of the BCS games in recent years that FOX has done – They were practically unwatchable unless the volume was muted. ESPN’s guys are hardly any better…
Joe Buck isn’t the rich kid trying to fit in as much as the rich kid who Dad bought his OWN convertible, who only wears pastel polo shirts and pops his collars, and who legitimately thinks that not only does his shite not stink, but that it tastes like Godiva and everybody should be grateful to chow down on it. Usually, broadcasters don’t get to me (McCarver doesn’t piss me off as much as just annoys me)…but Joe Morgan…Steve Phillips…and most of all, Joe Buck….put it this way–I would pay money to watch Joe Buck get punched in the face. I can’t say that about many people on this earth…and I don’t even KNOW the guy. I feel bad even saying it. But I know it would, deep down, make me really happy to see that happen.
God, do I dream of Vin Scully calling the first few innings of the World Series…and then maybe the Mets or Sox crew or some other cohesive, competent team taking over…then again, I dream of winning the lotto. Some things just ain’t happening.
I still don’t know what these announcers’ jobs are. I’d expect them to describe the game we are watching, offer insight into what is happening, predict what might happen based on that insight, and offer some details about why things are/are not working according to each team’s plan.
However, they rarely do that in a meaningful way. Often, the play calling is random, and based on what they expect to see (mostly football here), and not what actually happened. Often, the color guy offers no real insight, just a bunch of cliches (especially about team’s with reputations – like the Twins do the little things right, when everyone that watches them every day {sinker, gleeman, stohs even} says they haven’t since Kelly left – but that’s the Twins, so we’ll keep saying it like its true). It’s like they think we aren’t actually watching. Rarely do they offer actual insight into why something is working or not (every hit a Twins’ pitcher gives up is on a pitch left up in the zone according to blyleven – every hit).
I really don’t know what their job is, because what I think it is, is not what I observe them doing.
There are guys out there in a number of sports who are quite good. Dan Shulman, Mike Breen, and Jon Miller are three who come to mind immediately who are almost universally well-regarded.
I’m just not a big fan of hiring someone for a position based upon who their father was. And as I recall, a number of those unlistenable Fox bowl games you refer to were broadcast by Thom Brennaman, another example of nepotism trumping competence.
Yes to Shulman. Yes to Mike Breen, who was the best sports guy for the Imus show EVER. His humor was and is classic – “Bill….from White Plains….”
I’m not so sure about Jon Miller. Maybe he’s had to work with Joe Morgan and now Steve Phillips too often.
Many guys are excellent in their own market, broadcasting for “their team”. It’s that jump to the national level and thinking they need to talk to their audience like we are 3rd graders that tends to spoil the soup.
Tim McCarver actually is (or was anyway) one of the best color commentators for baseball ever – he really was. The thing is that he came from an old school philosophy on baseball and thus has always had some “edge” to his dealings with modern views. He doesn’t reject them out of hand as so many do but still…
That “edge” plus the fact that he has done it so long he (like almost everyone in any public profession who is required to do essentially the same thing every night) has become a caricature of himself. He also (IMO) has taken some of the criticism to heart because I think his “explanations” are longer than they used to be as he tries to win over or at least assuage his critics.
The man understands the game and is always willing to call out bad play as well as good play, is generally able to describe what is happening and has good stories to tell. That adds up to a good announcer to me.
As for the comment about talking to us as though we are 3rd graders I beg to differ. It is precisely on the national scene where that is more likely to happen as people try to win over viewers (for ratings) who wouldn’t normally come for the game – which means it is necessary to have some basics explained along the way. The best do it without seeming to talk down.
Since Tim was always one who went in for longer descriptions he is a natural to have people assume he is talking down even when he isn’t. He is simply trying to add minutiae to the basics for us all.
If William Shatner can make albums . . .
As a long-time Cardinal fan, I feel the same way about Mike Shannon as you do about McCarver.
Everyone please click on the Mark Wahlberg link. I burst out laughing for a good 15 seconds , much to the horror of the 10 people I am sharing this Starbucks with.
Is David Wells wearing a new age leisure suit on TBS tonight?
Will my life be complete without Joe’s take on the balloon boy phenomenon? I don’t think so. Not one bit.
This is from a recent BaseballThinkFactory discussion thread about a Vin Scully profile in the Wall Street Journal.
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/wsj_that_artful_dodgers_voice/
WSJ profile excerpt:
“The broadcaster insists that he never comes to the ballpark with any prepared lines, which makes some of [Scully's] legendary calls all the more remarkable. In 1956, when Don Larsen went into the last inning of the only perfect game in World Series history, Mr. Scully said: “Let’s all take a deep breath as we go to the most dramatic ninth inning in the history of baseball.” In 1974, when Hank Aaron stepped to the plate to break Babe Ruth’s home run record, Mr. Scully noted: “A black man is getting a standing ovation in the Deep South for breaking a record of an all-time baseball idol.” In 1988, when Kirk Gibson hit a walk-off home run to win the first game of the World Series, the broadcaster said: “In a year that has been so improbable, the impossible has happened.”
———-
Baseball Think Factory poster Guapo:
Translations into Joe Buck speak:
“We’re back here at Yankee Stadium. We’ve got the guys down in the truck checking if there’s ever been a perfect game thrown during the World Series before. I can’t remember it ever happening.”
“A standing ovation for Hank Aaron as he steps in. [Pause.] Boy, with everything in the news about the death threats- you really have to hope that some idiot doesn’t take a shot at him right now.”
“Deep to right field- gone. Kirk Gibson with a pinch-hit home run and the Dodgers take game 1 of the World Series. We’ll be right back to wrap up after these commercial messages.”
Why is Kansas so racist?
Picking the Beatles over Elvis is like picking
A Rod over Mickey Mantle. All you need to know is in the quote of the great John Lennon” Before Elvis there was nothing”.
One of the main reasons the Beatles wanted to tour in the United States in 1965 was to meeet their idol, Elvis Presley.
You can add up all the records the Beatles and the Rolling Stones sold together and it is still less than Elvis .
okay, so statements like “you can add up all the records the Beatles and RS sold together and it is still less than Elvis” kind of demand some hard data….unless they say “I’d bet” at the start.
I’m suspicious, and I don’t have time to find a good citation, but here’s something from a ’50s website:
Elvis Presley is the best selling solo artist In U.S. History
Elvis charted more songs on Billboard’s Hot 100 than any other artist. (149)
Elvis spent more weeks at the top of the charts than any other artist. (80)
Elvis had the greatest number of consecutive #1 hits. (10)
Elvis is second only to the Beatles in total of #1 hits. (18)
According to the RIAA:
Elvis is #2 for overall album sales (117.5 million)
(The Beatles sold 166.5 million; Led Zepplin, 106 million)
Elvis has the most Multi-Plaintum albums (25)
(The Beatles have 24; Led Zepplin and Barbra Streisand have 13)
According to that, Elvis didn’t outsell the Beatles as a group, much less adding in solo work, much less adding in a little garage band called the Rolling Stones.
Are those stats bad?
You can also argue that the Beatles were a lot more original, and Elvis more derivative…just sayin’
Joe – you need to add Chuck Berry to the “musical influence” poll immediately. Omitting him from that poll is a little like omitting Ted Williams from a “best hitter ever” poll. With the possible exception of Elvis Presley, no one influenced both the Beatles and the Stones more than he did.
Elvis sales are more in 45’s than albums. The King has sold over 1 billion records in the past 55 years. There is no doubt that the Beatles are the greatest group in musical history, and Elvis is the greatest solo artist.
The answer to the question, who is the greatest influence to pop music- Elvis Aron Presley.
Babe Ruth records may be broken, but Ruth is the greatest
It could be argued that Elvis completely stole his success from black heritage, and had he not done so, it would have eventually happened anyway. Elvis opened the door for the sound to be mainstream, but as far as influences on those that actually followed, the bands usually quickly left the middlemen and went to the Robert Johnsons* it originated from.
* Why is Johnson not listed? HE is a glaring omission from the list.
I was certain that Elvis picked up much of his on-stage presence/style from Forrest Gump. Did you guys not see the movie?
Chip Caray: Because even the team of Buck and McCarver need someone to mock.
lol @ #75, but you forgot the whooshing fox sound effects
in the biggest influence on pop music poll i dont understand how the Beatles are above Dylan when Dylan influenced the Beatles to change the kind of music they were making. just saying.
I have to comment about last night’s Dodgers Phillies game. As usual, I listen to the game on the radio and watch most pitches at mlb.com’s gameday, which includes close to real time pitch location, speed, and break data, the same data on which umpires get reviewed. Gameday is free, by the way, and you can review info from any game.
Now I understand the notion of consistency on the part of umpires. If an ump is consistently giving outside strikes against RHB for both teams, neither team will complain. If he’s squeezing or expanding the zone against both teams, again, no real complaints, although many individuals will be unhappy. And in the hundreds of games I’ve watched on Gameday, the behind the plate umpiring has been reasonably balanced. There have been bad calls, but not repeatedly bad calls favoring one team and hurting the other.
And my understanding of FX (which is why I post this, in case my understanding is wrong) is that the white rectangle represents the judgement area of the strike zone. If any part of the pitch is clearly inside the white rectangle, it *SHOULD* be called a strike. If no part of the ball even touches the white rectangle, it *SHOULD* be called a ball. Pitches on the rectangle (which is a surprisingly large percentage) allow for judgment on the part of the umpire.
Last night, Randy Marsh seemed to be calling a good game. Look, for example, at pitch 2 to Ryan Howard in the second inning. Partly inside the rectangle, partly on the white, should be a called strike, was a called strike. I cite this for reference to later in the game. You might also look at strike one to Jayson Werth in the second (pitch 2). Should be a called strike, just a smidge on the white, was a called strike.
In the first three innings I spotted only one fairly bad call. Loney got a ball called on a pitch mostly in the rectangle but partially inside. Marsh seemed to be umpiring with high strikes likelier than low strikes, but consistently. Loney’s call was off but not terrible. Ethier had a strike called on him that was probably inside, but could have caught the white. A fine game for balls and strikes.
Then some time during Ryan Howard’s at bat in the fourth inning, Marsh received the text message that if the Phillies lost, Marsh’s dog was dead. Ryan Howard walked on strike three in the strike zone, not a failed check swing (although folks said that, too, should have been called; so you get some calls when you’re Ryan Howard). In the bottom of the fourth, Blake got a called strike on a pitch not as good as Howard’s ball four.
Then in the fifth, Marsh got the video of his dog dangling over a shark tank, and really started working for the Phillies. The second pitch to Ibanez was almost entirely inside the rectangle; ball one. Young Kershaw has to start wondering what he has to do to get a strike. Carlos Ruiz’s ball two was also inside the rectangle. As the zone gets squeezed, the pitches get fatter. Ruiz homered on a 2-1 count that should have been 1-2. And Kershaw has now lost his composure. Rollins has a couple of calls that could have gone either way go his way, but makes out anyway. Ryan Howard (again) takes strike one that is called as ball one, and having no place to pitch but right down the middle, that’s where Kershaw goes.
If this were the only inning, I’d blame Kershaw. But it wasn’t. Look at Loney’s pitch two in the 6th. If that’s a strike, than Ryan Howard was out in the 4th and 5th. Look at Martin’s Pitch 3 in the 6th. Look at Ethier’s pitch 2 in the 7th. Ramirez’s pitch 1 in the 7th was a very marginal strike, but Manny got no calls last night. Belliard’s first pitch was out of the zone, called strike one, in the 8th. Loney’s first pitch in the 9th was ball one, called strike one; if he’s calling outside strikes to LHB, why wasn’t Howard struck out, like, twice more.
I saw roughly 12 bad ball strike calls, things with no margin for error, during the game. One of them (a bad strike call on Utley in the 7th when the damage had been done) favored the Dodgers. The other 11 favored the Phillies, gave the Phillies extra runs or at bats, and forced the Dodgers into defensive swings at bad pitches because of an enormous strike zone.
In the top of the ninth, Broxton’s first pitch, an 98 MPH fast ball, *somehow* got by Russell Martin and hit Marsh in the leg. I’m pretty sure that was deliberate and deserved. I hope that MLB makes it clear that this game is why when they announce Marsh has been fired.
Finally, last night when I did my initial charting, the rectangle’s placement was different on the screen (different computer). I don’t know if MLB adjusted it because of criticism, or if the computers matter, or what. But last night every batter from Howard in the fourth until Kershaw was pulled in the fifth had at least one must be called a strike (inside the rectangle) called a ball. Today the number is less. But last night it was about 17 calls for the Phillies. Utley did get one outside strike (both computers), but then so did Loney and Ethier, and somehow Howard didn’t on pitches that must have been a foot closer to a strike. Really, I think they should open an investigation. If NBA refs fixed games, why not MLB?
Steve Stone??!?!?! IS THAT A JOKE!!?!?!??!
I’ve never heard any announcer come up with more excuses for his teams’ players than Steve Stone. It was comical. One of my favorite childhood pastimes was watching WGN and waiting for the next excuse Stone would pull out of his rear.
barely a parody…
Steve Stone: Weelll, Steve Buchelle swings and misses, and that is strike three. That is his third strikeout today. You know, Harey, that afternoon sun has come out of the clouds on all three of Steve’s at-bats this afternoon. It’s been right in his eyes and that makes Mark Portugal an awfully touch pitcher to bat against. Also, Buchelle’s dog passed away last off-season and you could tell in our long talks with Steve this spring, that the death of his dog will dogg him (haheha) all season. He gets distracted at the plate thinking about Skippy–that’s the dog’s name–and it is a testament to Steve’s tenacity that he is still able to play. And even though Buchelle has struck out three times, he made Portugal throw at least three pitches in his at-bats. That allowed the Cubs starting pitcher, Frank Castillo, to get some more rest between innings. So, really, Harey, Buchelle’s at-bats have been a success this afternoon.
Harey Carey: Now, now, now, I’m confused. Your name is Steve. And his name is Steve? I thought your dog dieeed last spring. Well, well, well, now isn’t that a fine piece of blond, uh, skin in the stands. Back to the game, Jose Viscusananino, er Viscannon, er…. is striding to the plate to pinch-hit bat for the pitcher…
after watching Cuzzi blow that fair ball call for the yankees vs the Twins and the Utley play vs the Rockies and then you beautifully breaking down the balls/strikes from last night, this post season seems more than fishy.
I’m watching the TBS coverage via ESPN’s Pacific Rim feed, a service so erratic (games scheduled and not shown, games shown in slots advertising other programmes) that I’d be happy for Mickey Mouse calling it with Donald Duck as colour man.
But who was the post-game interviewer guy with the bad jacket, bad skin and worse haircut? That he didn’t end up with a punch in the nose says plenty for Brad Lidge’s character.
And Richard Aronson @85 — great work.
I was thinking maybe Kershaw had beaten up Marsh’s son when they were twelve-year-olds . . .
Well, I now understand why the umps were so dead set against the FX system for their reviews. And lets do some math. How likely is it that a major league playoff ump makes a correct call when it’s in the clear cut zone? I’m not complaining much about balls in the judgment area, but balls that really don’t have much argument. Are umps 90% likely to get those calls right? I’d hope for a higher number. So if there are 12 bad calls, and 11 go against one team, that’s about a one in a billion bad day.
Maybe Randy Marsh’s day really was accidentally that bad. Or maybe a few days from now we’ll read about the hostages released, along with an apology from Randy Marsh, and David Caruso will have kept another promise to a parent – no, wait, CSI Miami’s fiction. I really don’t know why Marsh was so bad, bad enough to get Kershaw out of the game, probably bad enough to have influenced the outcome. But I do think baseball should look into it. To compare, today I think I saw three bad ball/strike calls, split 2/1, and all three were on outside pitches to LHB, so there was consistency in the errors. Not what we want, but every major leaguer will settle for consistency if they can’t get perfection.
Hell, maybe we SHOULD just automate the umpiring
It’s true that the Beatles themselves were directly influenced by Elvis Presley. nevertheless, what has come out of popular music over the last 40 years owes a lot more to the Beatles’ influence than Elvis’ music.
And it’s ludicrous to say that Dylan was a major influence on the history of popular music because he once got JPG and Ringo stoned.
Finally, I agree with the guy who is stunned by the omission of Chuck Berry from the list of influences. No one person “invented rock and roll,” but he came the closest.
Why are you all talking about your Beatles and your Elvises? Nobody’s ever been better than Al Jolson!
If Jolson were around today, he’d have 107 of the top 100 songs on the Billboard charts!
Well done, Mr. Aronson. Umpiring is woefully deficient, especially with regards to balls and strikes.
Last postseason, I was so disgusted by what I saw that I began recording some of the more heinous errors. I called it a “Compendium of Umpiring so Despicable as to be Noteworthy”. Here is an entry (I don’t know if my observations are/were supported by Gameday.):
26 OCT 2008 TB Rays at Phil. Phillies Andy Sonnanstine vs. Joe Blanton WS GAME 4
Philly up 2 games to 1 HP: Tom Hallion 1B: Jeff Kellogg 2B: Tim Tschida 3B: Tim Welke LF: Kerwin Danley RF: Fieldin Culbreth
***Bottom 1st 3B Umpire TIM WELKE
Called PHI SS Jimmy Rollins safe while diving back into 3B (1-5 Fielder’s Choice).
Rollins was clearly tagged by TB 3B Evan Longoria.
TIM WELKE stood less than 10 yards away with a clear view of the play.
This egregious error led directly to Phillies scoring 1st Run of the game.
Sonnanstine’s pitch count and TB’s morale also affected.
***Throughout the Game HP Umpire TOM HALLION
Strike Zone clearly favored Philadelphia
Sonnanstine was squeezed throughout his 4 IP.
3 BB in 4 IP including only the 2nd Bases Loaded BB of his career.
Sonnanstine issued 3 BB in just one of his 32 GS in all of 2008.
***Bottom 5th HP Umpire TOM HALLION stormed toward the TB dugout during an AB.
Hallion screamed at various TB personnel, but was unable to discern the source of the vocal criticism he heard emanating from TB’s dugout.
Phillies SP Joe Blanton proceeded to hit the 1st HR of his career (vs. TB RHP Edwin Jackson).
Blanton was 2 for 28 (2 singles) w/ 11 K’s previously in his career.
***Top 6th with 1 out Joe Blanton issued his 1st BB of the game to TB 1B Carlos Pena.
Blanton proceeded to hit Carl Crawford with a pitch 2 batters later.
This left runners on 1st and 2nd w/ 2 outs and TB Catcher Dioner Navarro at the plate.
HALLION called the 1-0 pitch a strike. It was clearly a ball—Announcers Buck/McCarver agree.
1-1 pitch is called a ball despite being identical to prior pitch—Buck/McCarver agree.
Next pitch clearly a ball—HALLION called strike 2. Navarro then K’s swinging (Blanton’s 7th K).
After reading the comments about Tim McCarver and other talking heads, I wanted to put in a good word for Gregg Zaun. For the past several years, Zaun has been commenting between innings on Canada’s Sportsnet that carries the post-season games. Granted he is not commentuing while the game is in progess, but his explanations about various aspects of the game are very insightful. In fact, I would describe him as the best I have ever heard on TV. He works with Jamie Campbell, who very frequently is criticized for his lack of baseball savvy when he does play-by-play on Blue Jays games. In this context, Campbell just asks questions and lets Zaun explain. I hope that the US networks learn how great Zaun is and one of them hires him when he hangs up his catching gear.
I’m the same way Joe. I realize now, that he is not a good color commentator. But that’s not how I remember him. My dad grew up a huge Cardinals fan in the 60s and loved McCarver as a player. I remember watching games with my dad, and him telling me stories about McCarver –and then pointing out things that were particularly insightful when he was on air.
My dad had an old ball bat that had McCarver’s signature engraved in it — not autographed mind you – but engraved at the Louisville Slugger factory. He loved that bat. And I took it out to play ball with some kids in the neighborhood and ended up breaking it — I was heartbroken when I told my dad and I remember the look of disappointment on his face when he said “you know better -you always keep the brand up”.
For all those reasons, I like Tim McCarver, even though he doesn’t call a great game any more.
Thank you, Brent. “Brand up” still makes me smile.