Buzz In My Ear
Posted: October 1st, 2009 | Filed under: Pop Culture | 128 Comments »
A few Brilliant Readers forwarded to me the following Buzz Bissinger exchange on Deadspin today.
SavetoFavorites: What do you think about Joe Posnanski’s claim that he would “mess you up, Juice-style, two times” in a liveblog race?
Buzz: This is the same Posnanski who has crapped out to Sports Illustrated and acted several weeks ago like he had discovered Dave Duncan when I wrote about him in Three Nights four years ago in much better depth and prose. That Joe Posnanski? He probably still believes in Moneyball? By the way, how did Billy Beane do this year? Or the year before? Or the year before? Biggest fraud in baseball. As for LaRussa, who you all hate, two world series and one division championship in five years.
So, to answer a few of the most basic questons:
– No, I didn’t really say that. It’s Deadspin. It’s funny.
– I don’t recall acting like I discovered Dave Duncan. The guy’s been a pitching coach for 30 years.
– Buzz Bissinger is an outstanding journalist and writer.
– Tempting question, but I’m going to stick with Buzz Bissinger is an outstanding journalist and writer.
– I have never had a feud before. Could this be the start of something new?
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Circle me Braylon Edwards
I dunno, I’m comfortable with Billy Beane as the biggest fraud in baseball. Well, not really. Most overhyped, maybe. It seems like nobody’s noticing he’s been assembling terrible teams for several years now.
He was thinking of a different Joe Posnanski.
For an outstanding journalist and writer, he sure has a talent for making a complete *** of himself.
I say feud.
Don’t know the guy, but the name alone gets my blood roiling. Buzz Bissinger…nobody likes alliterative names.
On a lighter note….I asked a friend of mine if today’s game by Carpenter for the Cards was the best all around game of all time (5 scoreless innings, 6Ks, 2-3, grand slam, and 6 RBIs). His response…”no, it just proves Kip Wells sucks.”
I agreed but it did get me wondering: What is the best all around game ever? (pitching plus hitting) Surely the Babe had a similar game?
Let’s cut Bissinger a break. He just wrote a biography about how LeBron James and his friends triumphed on the AAU summer circuit as a kids. Those AAU circuit stories always get me. It’s the last pure bit of amateur athletics untouched by greed, agents, hangers’ on, ex-college coaches now shoe company reps, and insane parents. I can’t wait to never read it.
@6, the Babe might well have had a similar game. But the “recent” one that leaps to mind is Rick Wise, who pitched a no-hitter and won either 1-0 or 2-0, I forget, on his own homer or two homers, I forget.
tell buzz to
start shit and do something bout it
Well, I was close. June 23, 1971, Wise beat Cincinnati 4-0 on a no-hitter. He hit two home runs, good for 3 of the Phillies’ 4 RBIs.
Feud! Feud! Feud! Feud!
Seriously, who pissed in his cornflakes this morning?
So… is he saying that he discovered Dave Duncan, then? I thought that was the one good thing Jeff Torborg did in his life. Guess you’re going to take that away from him, too, aren’t you, Buzz.
I think the real question/point here is: Why is Buzz Bissinger always act like an asshole?
@6, I had a similar thought, so I turned to bball-ref, for illumination. Lo and behold, they had already sorted the data for me.
The site’s blog has a list of pitchers with 6+ RBIs in one game since 1954:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/2760
Topping that list is Tony Cloninger, who on July 3, 1966, allowed 3 runs in a complete game victory…while also going 3/5, including two grand slams, for 9 RBIs.
Yowza.
Does anybody really take anything serious when it is said by a man who uses the name Buzz?
What a little person. I don’t know this Buzz character but he comes across like he’s 5′ 2″ with a serious Napoleon complex.
I never use the phrase “pompous windbag.”
Buzz Bissinger is a pompous windbag. And, sadly enough, a good writer.
But still a giant, pompous windbag.
@RPMcSweeney: Good info, but how many guys on that list also won a Cy Young? (answer for those who don’t want to click the link: Dave Giusti was the closest before Carp – he finished 4th in 1970)
Am I missing something, or is Buzz Bissinger a guy whose entire journalistic accomplishment is a single book published nearly twenty years ago — one in which he deceived the people of Odessa, Texas into speaking to him by hiding the true nature of his project? It seems like the only time I ever hear from him today is when he tries to get attention by disparaging someone who is actually relevant in the 21st century.
Some people aren’t worth the trouble.
Buzz Bissinger = not worth it. He’s a tool.
Deadspin is not the issue here, dude. Joe Posnanski. The other Joe Posnanski. The deadbeat.
There is no reason, no FU*&%NG reason, why he should Dave Duncan all over town and Buzz pisses on your blog.
Am I wrong?
Billy Beane really ties this blog together, does he not?
Buzz is just one more boring white sportswriter who will be remembered as the last of a thankfully dying breed.
Hey Buzz: math works.
PS: This comment will probably contribute to another half-cocked, profane diatribe about the incivility of sports blogs. I feel badly about that.
There are three rules that I live by: Never get less than 12 hours of sleep, never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city, and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. My new fourth rule is to never pay attention to a grown man named Buzz. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese.
I feel this emptiness in my soul for not having heard of Buzz Bissinger until this entry….
Well, if nothing else, this really does underline Buzz’ point from a couple years ago about the irresponsible and uninformed nonsense that the web and (especially Deadspin) breeds.
It takes a special talent to take a self-righteous and superficial stand on the lack of intelligence and civility on the web and then use your own live chat to make unintelligent and uncivil comments about another sportswriter.
Mess ‘im up, Joe, Juice-style!!!
(btw, what the h-e-double-hockey-sticks does that even mean, “juice-style”??? Buzz took that seriously??? Either I’m getting old, and school is getting in the way of uber-uber-pop culture, or that’s a serious insult to Buzz) . . .
I’m staying. Finishing my coffee.
– Buzz Bissinger is an outstanding journalist and writer.
Doesn’t mean he isn’t also a prick.
A#22 Paul White –
I just got this one rule. I never go out with girls who say “bitchin’”
@bigcatasroma
I think “Juice” references Orenthal James (OJ) “The Juice” Simpson. If you believe certain quarters, The Juice really did mess up some Mutha@*&^#!
So, everyone ignored my posting of a couple weeks ago, but you have to ask the question: “Was Billy Beane’s superiority really the product of moneyball smarts, or an overjuiced clubhouse (that has since declined during the testing era)?”
Joe, what’s the evidence?
“This is the same Posnanski who has crapped out to Sports Illustrated and acted several weeks ago like he had discovered Dave Duncan when I wrote about him in Three Nights four years ago in much better depth and prose.”
Dear Buzz,
Please take some time out of your busy schedule of kissing Tony LaRussa’s ass and trying to demean the internet to look up the difference between an article and a book. You managed more detail in a book than Joe did in an article. Hooray for you. Good luck in your quest to be a king-sized jerk.
Sincerely,
Phil
This Billy Beane hate has just got to stop. It doesn’t make sense. Beane has some philosophies, he’s used them, and he’s helped make modern statistical analysis more mainstream in front offices. He engineered a lot of winning A’s teams this decade, as noted many times, small-market teams. Yes, the A’s have had 3 bad years now – THREE. It’s not that many. He’s rebuilding, has put together a solid pitching corps, and there’s hope again. Billy Beane did not write a damn book about himself, and has asked for no spotlight. Overrated? Maybe, but because he’s such a household name for a general manager and hasn’t won a world series. The Red Sox, espousers of lots of Beane’s tactics, have now won 2 in recent years.
Man, it just pisses me off. Lay off Moneyball, you freaking idiots, and Beane too. I bet Buzz has never read it, like Joe Morgan.
If you look at Billy Beane’s track record – his whole track record – it’s really pretty darn good.
A few bad years means a few bad years. This is still the same guy who took scraps into the playoffs five times this decade.
The question is probably the funniest thing I’ve read all day. The fact that Buzz apparently took the bait makes it even funnier.
Feud…if only to enjoy JoeP writing a 3,000- word blog post showing what a fool Buzz is.
Buzz is holding up Tony LaRussa, the man whose great teams in Oakland were apparently juiced to the gills and in St. Louis were not quite 100% juice free. ?
No! No fued Joaldo. Stay above the fray and keep doing what you do, don’t stoop to the cable news level of debating, it will water down something (this blog) that is very special to a lot of us.
LET IT GO
My daughter bought me Bissinger’s Three Nights in August a couple of years back.
I have two memories of it. The first is that the Cardinals won the third game on a hit by a guy La Russa didn’t want in his line-up — truth is known, didn’t want him in St Louis. The second is better the girl’s money wasted on it than mine.
For such an outstanding journalist and writer, he sure doesn’t do well with this “internets” thing. Failed on Costas’ show, failed doing a chat. Maybe he should just stop talking and only write.
Joe, on the bright side at least he knows who you are and didn’t play the “Who’s Joe Posnanski?” card. So you’ve got that going for you, which is nice.
i read his book about Philly and Rendell. It was well meaning, slightly biased, and a good read.
doesnt mean he’s a pompous windbag.
i like his cousin peter berg though
Is there any possibility he was just joking around? He knew the question wasn’t serious, so he acted like the raving lunatic he was on Costas Now?
I haven’t read any of Bissinger’s books (I know my mom wasn’t impressed with 3 Nights in August), all I know about him is this and the whole thing with Will Leitch, but I guess I’d like to think he’s not really this much of a raging boor.
@32 – I totally agree. Billy Beane is a failure. Maybe overrated, but not a bad GM. There has definitely been some bad luck of late and definitely some bad moves (or lack of good ones), but it many teams, especially teams with much greater resources, have now adopted many of the philosophies, tactics, and strategies the A’s use. Some may even do it better because they have better sabermetricians, scouts, or both. This isn’t uncommon. History is littered with pioneers and inventors who’s own ideas were eventually bettered by others.
As far as steroids contributing to the A’s success, who were the users? Giambi, Tejada, Adam Piatt…? The A’s had a dominating and deep rotation and bullpen that was bolstered by an OBP-based offense w/ some pop. Steroids were prevalent throughout baseball, not just in Oakland and I don’t even know how prevalent they were in Oakland. Also, Giambi left Oakland after 2001 and Tejada after 2003 while the A’s were very good until the 2007 season. They made the ALCS in 2006.
Buzzy is loud and upset. Great. Who cares? Right now babies are crying all over the globe and children are spouting nonsensical babble, too. Just let the babies cry themselves to sleep and ignore the kids inanities and do the same to lil Buzzy.
Bissinger wrote:
“As for LaRussa, who you all hate….”
I believe that’s “whom you hate,” Mr. Bissinger.
Bissinger is such an ametuer. If you want to draw Posnanski into a fued, go after Springsteen or Kuiper.
Buzz Bissenger is a dick.
Why is Buzz such a defensive a-hole? He’s had a couple of wildly successful books, can live the life he chooses, but has to lash out at anyone who questions the notion that he invented baseball.
Interesting that he’s spending time arguing over another defensive a-hole, Dave Duncan.
And yes, Beane is the most overrated guy in sports. Zito, Mulder, and Hudson would have made a lot of guys look like geniuses.
Honestly, I’ve never read one word Bissinger has written. Were it not for FJM, Costas and these here internets, I never woulda heard of the man. Fuck him and everything he believes in.
As a DBacks fan, I have gotten to watch some pretty amazing hitting performances by a pitcher courtesy of Micah Owings. How about 8/18/07 – 1 ER through the 1st 6 while going 4/5 with 2 HR, 1 2B and 6 RBI. (Unfortunately they sent him out for 1 inning too many and he gave up 2 ER in the 7th but still got the win.)
9/27/07 – 6.1 shutout innings and 4/4 with 3 2B and 3 RBI
Micah Owings will end up a position player before his career is over
doesn’t buzz bissinger look like that guy that runs that one adult film company?
What is this shit about “believing in Moneyball”? Like it’s some damn religion or something that you have to take on faith. It’s a pretty damn simple and universal business strategy: you take advantage of market inefficiencies. That strategy works now and it will work in the 24th and a half century when we’re playing baseball with Jetsons helmets.
Also, if Billy Beane and his 8 year run of 87+ win teams is “overrated” then I’m George Washington.
DO NOT ENGAGE! buzz bissenger is an animal. he will not relent. plus he’s clever. and extremely diabolical. your too good a writer to loose to this chicanery.
Feud Joe, and here’s why.
It’s not the dissing exactly. He heard a “quote” from you dissing him, he disses back. Fine. Rappers do it all the time. It’s the way how he acted like he now owns LaRussa and Duncan. Like he is forever involved in their past, present and future accomplishments. I read 3 Nights In August. Good book. Well written. Massively overwritten, but well written. It was like getting a sandwich with an entire bottle of sauce somehow packed into it, and it’s good, but it’s a bit much and there aren’t any bites you can take to get a break from the sauce.
I also hate how he randomly assigns Billy Beane to you and then trashes you for it. This is because… why? Perhaps he’s heard you mention foul words like UZR? I bet Billy Beane knows what UZR means and he spends many unsavory hours looking at uzrs on the internet and no good wholesome hours looking fondly at his baseball team.
Destroy this man Joe. Not just because he’s wrong, but because he’s wrong and he deserves a thorough beating (verbally of course).
Just checked out the article on Deadspin. It’s a Q+A with Bissinger and the fans. Buzz is a tool who is thoroughly convinced that he’s cooler than you. Not you specifically Joe, the general you. If he met Nelson Mandela, he would probably say “F*** you, Tony LaRussa, who you hate, has one two world series, and he may have passed out drunk at a stop sign, but at least he didn’t go to jail like you. You probably believe in elections. Yeah that worked real well for Al Gore.”
Anyway, here’s the link:
http://deadspin.com/5372366/buzz-bissingers-highlight-reel
Hey Joe,
The best thing about your blog is that you come across as a nice guy. Successful, brilliant, but more importantly nice. Kinda like how God is justice, power and wisdom but most of all He is love. Those other things are great Joe, but dont ever stop being nice.
You know what? Maybe Buzz Bissinger is smarter than all of us. Maybe this new, blowhard, asshole personality — which just sprang up publicly last year, mind you — is a cynical attempt to rescue his own career from the depths to which it was in the process of plunging. Maybe, just maybe, he knows and embraces the power of the internet, and has decided that the best way to profit from the internet is to pretend to hate it. That way, the internet gets buzzing about Bissinger, helping his book sales and name recognition. I guarantee you there are twice as many people who have heard of Buzz Bissinger now than there were two years ago.
Maybe he’s just playing us all for fools, and maybe it’s working.
I HATE the argument that because Billy Beane’s teams have sucked the last few years, both the central premise behind Moneyball and the conclusion that Beane is a brilliant baseball mind are somehow invalidated.
It’s like saying Einstein wasn’t a genius because, after he revolutionized physics with the Quantum and Relativity Theories, his later years of searching for a Unified Field Theory proved fruitless.
Beane was on to something pretty new and radical, and had great success with the approach of seeking inefficiencies in the prevailing wisdom of talent evaluation. Two things have happened since then: 1) most smart MLB teams started to copy, at least to some extent, the Beane approach, and 2) once that happened, there were no remaining inefficiencies to exploit that could have anywhere near the impact of the historic underappreciation for OBP.
Joe,
For the love of God, please feud. Bizzinger is a jackass and insufferable.
And he can keep keeping on because no one else in the industry has the stature, the knowledge, and the nutsack to knock him down a peg. So commence feud. I would. Hell, I’ll probably write an article on the bleacher report on your behalf tonight.
Earlier this year, Yovani Gallardo gave up 2 hits, 1 walk, struck out 11, and hit a home run in a 1-0 win for the Brewers.
No complete game though for Gallardo; he”only” went 8…
BTW, it’s been 21 years since Bissinger has contributed something useful in Friday Night Lights. I have no idea how this guy hasn’t just been mocked out of existance, he’s not even old enough yet to have an excuse for old man, Murray Chass-style, self-righteous anger.
Maybe someone should have Tony LaRussa tell Buzz to jump off a cliff; knowing Buzz, he’d do it for the father of fairweather managing (let’s see what a “genius” LaRussa is without Henderson/McGwire or Pujols).
One more LaRussa note: check his last 3 years in Oakland. Career Win percentage? 53.5%. Because when I think insane amounts of success, I think 87-75 records.
Joe, please fire back. Here is some information you can use:
Cardinals Avg. Payroll 2006-2008 = $101.81 million
Cardinals Avg. Wins 2006 – 2008 = 82.33
Athletics Avg. Payroll 2006-2008 = $68.22 million
Athletics Avg Wins 2006 – 2008 = 81.33
For an extra $33.59 million dollars the Cardinals got 1 extra win a year.
Also, Billy Beane = GM, Tony Larussa = Manager.
Is this the same Buzz Bissinger who crapped out to NBC by selling them the rights to Friday Night Lights?
I like how by saying Joe “crapped out” to SI, he is clearly meaning to somehow INSULT Joe for this, implying that SI is some trashy rag publication that is shameful to work for. When did that happen, exactly? Or is he saying that “true” writers only work for newspapers? Or write books that become movies starring guys named Billy Bob and tv shows known primarily (it seems) for the eye-candy?
@ 62
If we set the baseline of teams at 45 wins (how a team would do with absolute crap, AAAA players at their disposal), then in 2006-08, when the Cards were magically delicious and the A’s were chokers, we can say the A’s were +36 / yr marginally, and the Cards +37
A’s: $68.22 mil / 36 wins = $1.895 mil / win
Cards: $101.81 mil / 37 wins = $2.75 mil / win.
So yes, the A’s front office was about 45% more efficient than the Cards front office. But hey, the Cardinals won a WS! (mainly due to Pujols and luck, but hey, semantics).
I enoy both your and Buzz’s writing. However, you seem like a “great guy,” and he seems like a “raging a-hole.” Great guys shouldn’t mix it up with raging a-holes, unless they are given no other choice. At this point, he’s dissed you in a ridiculous, profane chat on a silly website. Ehh, so what? Let your work speak for it itself. Even typing this post was a complete waste of your time, which many of us obviously consider valuable since we read everything you put out. I’d rather read another 50 posts about the Royals than another single one about Buzz.
@ 65
Haha, you forgot Eckstein, it was mainly due to him.
Thanks for the additional analysis, too. I would say if you are using base wins as a given for each team though then you would have to subtract the salary of a league average team from the 2006-2008 payroll average of each club. I would think 25 * Avg. League Minimum salary for 2006-2008 would suffice.
I don’t have time to do it but my thought is this would actually make the Cards look worse compared to the A’s.
I agree with #55, I think it’s a false public persona to get more attention and not worth responding to. Besides, Joe, you are loved because you manage to stay eternally optimistic despite your awareness of all our shortcomings. Not because you are involved in a petty feud.
When did Buzz Bissinger become a journalist? He wrote a good book 20 years ago.
Thank you for loving your enemy.
Me and Jesus appreciate that going into the weekend.
You can’t say Billy Beane is a failure. Look at the results over the years. The essence of Moneyball is that you are NOT going to have a contender every year. You are largely playing to the draft and the trade market.
Plus, look at what Boston has been doing the last few years. They went out and hired Mr. Moneyball, Bill James, and are playing Moneyball statistics with money.
@69 and everyone else who is equating “doesn’t like Joe” with “he must suck”–Buzz Bissinger won a fricking Pulitzer as a journalist, and for anyone who hasn’t read A Prayer for the City, seriously, read it. Like, this weekend. It’s worth your time. (But only if you’ve already read The Machine, because life’s all about priorities).
And like it or hate it, his hero-worship of LaRussa *was* a pretty compelling read, as an ethnography if nothing else. I haven’t read the ode to LeBron, but I’m going to, because there are a lot more crap sports books out there than good ones, and Buzz doesn’t produce crap.
Joe is right–the guy (1) IS an outstanding journalist and writer. He’s also seems to be (2) an epic a-hole. But (2) doesn’t mean that (1) isn’t true. And Joe proves you can be (1) without (2). So take the high road, Joe. You’re two different people. Just look at your respective websites…here you are writing a non-glitzy (that’s a compliment!) must-read blog, and he has a slickety-doo website full of self-promotion. I admire you both as writers, but I’d much rather have a brat and a beer with you.
This is the same Buzz Bissinger who took the Tony LaRussa chapter from George Will’s book and re-wrote it like a newspaper article?
I predict this ends with Poz getting shot in Vegas.
Not having read any of his staff, I’m not qualified to comment on Bissinger as a writer. However, having seen the Deadspin chat…wow. What a megalomaniac. That HAS to be a fake persona he’s putting on. No one can possibly be that haughty, can they?
I also agree that Beane’s detractors tend to demonstrate a failure to understand both the philosophies espoused in Moneyball and the general baseball climate.
The author pointed out how Beane found inefficiencies in the market and used them to build a great team despite huge payroll limitations. Once those inefficiencies became evident to other teams (a process that was, ironically enough, expedited in some cases by the publication of Moneyball), they started valuing players more accurately and pricing the guys Beane was targeting at the time out of the A’s range.
Beane’s been forced to shift his focus away from OBP guys to find other inefficiencies (young pitching and good defense being two notable ones.) That philosophy has yet to bear fruit, but Oakland has a strong young core, most of whom are making peanuts.
On a related note, as much as I (and most people reading this site) love the advancements in player valuation, I do have some concern over what it will mean for the future of baseball. We’ve seen what the Red Sox have done with good statistical analysis AND money. As we get closer and closer to nailing down players’ true values, it looks to me like it’s going to make it much harder for lower-payroll teams to compete with smart, well-heeled organizations who can afford to overpay the absolute best guys out there.
Buzz needs a Snuggie…
I’m pretty sure that Bissinger’s response was meant as a joke. However, it does not speak well of him that so many people would think he was serious.
Joke or not, though, I would vote to not respond.
I do think Buzz puts a huge front on, but how can anyone take this man seriously?
Just makes me sick that guys like him are allowed to be successful. He’s way past Heyman and Plaschke now on my writer shit-list.
WTF is a Buzz Bissinger?
I really don’t put much weight in the notion that Bissinger and others who come across as buffoons are doing it solely to get attention, sell books, stroke their egos, make money, etc. That may well true, in fact I suspect it’s largely true, but I don’t see that as a reason to give them a pass for their behavior. If that’s what they’re doing, then they’re basically choosing to be assholes. And if you’re a person who makes a conscious decision to be an asshole, then aren’t you, well, an asshole?
CONFESSION: I’m “SavetoFavorites,” and I started the Buzz-Joe feud, or whatever the hell this is.
I didn’t aim or expect to receive such a response– or ANY response, frankly– when I submitted that.
There was a bit of a delay early in the hour (due to “technical difficulties,” or confusion over where to be, or his attempts to produce Internet words by shouting at the monitor) during which questions seemed to pile up unanswered for about twenty minutes. Naturally, commenters filled the gap by shoveling a host of non-sequiturs and “he ditched us”/”Will killed Buzz”-type jokes in among the more pointed/thoughtful questions.
To his credit, he walked right into what must have felt a bit like an ambush eighteen months in the making and gave as well– or with as much gusto, anyway– as he got.
To his discredit, he seemed weirdly, sporadically angry at stretched (the Joe moment, a somewhat hypocritical rant about use of the word “retard”) and seemed to largely skirt past the “big” questions (how he could moralize on “Costas Now” about journalistic ideals while writing an as-told-to product for “LebronCorp,” third-party pressures on content and form in tackling such a project, basketball-as-urban-communal-experience versus Texas football) in favor of the strawmen/one-liners featured in the Highlights piece.
For the record, I’m a big fan of some of his work– “A Prayer for the City” got me working in city politics during college, and he was ONE HELL of a feature writer for Philadelphia Magazine during the 90s. And “FNL”– however misrepresented some of its subjects feel– is seminal.
Sadly… these days, it’s almost as if he only has two speeds– bombast and spittle-tossing-brand bitter.
And “Juice-style” was actually “‘Juice’-style,” as in the urban-morality tale/Omar Epps vehicle from the early 90s. I guess, Joe, that in my head, you’re a Tupac guy.
@56
I agree with you, but I also hate the argument that Beane is a genius because of all of the winning that happened with such a small payroll. He gets far more credit than he deserves for the results of the “big 3″ panning out.
I demand a “Feud or No Feud” poll question. When in doubt, always turn to your BRs.
After reading more of the chat session I’m pretty sure Buzz was joking. Most of his responses were way too over the top to be taken seriously. Either that or he has the biggest ego on the planet. I’m betting on joking.
Marshall @ 77 & Tampa Mike @ 85 have it right – BB wasn’t trying to be a buffoon to sell books, he was trying to play along with the site’s tone with some gonzo, over-the-top jokey responses.
That said, I read A Prayer for the City and while it’s good, it suffers from the same flaw that BB displays elsewhere: an extreme identification with those who talk to him and utter dismissal of those who don’t. Everyone BB interviewed in Philly was earnestly trying to save the place; those he didn’t talk to were utterly selfish, amoral and corrupt.
@ 20,
You’re not wrong, Motherscratcher, you’re just an a**hole. And yes, Beane really tied the blog together.
I think the more important question at hand, is Buzz Bissinger a giant douche or turd sandwich?
Buzz Bissinger is an outstanding journalist and writer.
Didn’t Buzz toss a shoe or two – Iraqi journalist and/or upset mare style – on some interview with the DeadSpin founder (side note: that site’s strictly for pre-pubescents) a year or two back?
Buzz, who has some skills, strikes me as a guy with a very big ego and very little self control.
Joe, I like your work. Don’t always agree with it. (Too Royals-centric for me, although I’m sure others would say the same about New York, Boston, Chicago, and LA scribes.)
If you would, do everyone a favor and ignore this crap. We’ve already got one Glenn Beck. That’s more than enough. You’re better than that, Joe. Just ignore Buzz and get back to baseball.
Let me be clear. BB wasn’t acting like an asshole. He is an asshole. There’s no pretense here. He didn’t get the joke. And he wasn’t playing along.
A decade or more ago, one of my journalist colleagues questioned him about Friday Night Lights and some of the truth-stretching he did in that book. BB launched into a raging, five-minute rant in which he called my colleague, a 30-year plus journalist — a f**king hack. He then hung up in a tizzy. This chat is just further proof: Not only is he a bitterman; he’s a gullible bitterman.
Gavin,
You were wrong. Stick to spelling.
i mistyped above. i meant to say i liked his rendell book (prayer for our city) but bissinger probably is a pompous windbag.
Prayer for our City does make you rethink municipal government. For example, it makes you think of something like chicago and the olympics a bit differently. when polls are released saying half of chicagoans are happy the olympics aren’t coming. it makes you think about what daly and obama were trying to do. sure, they were trying to get their city some publicity. more likely though, despite all the talk about whether or not olympic hosting is good in the long run (it appears Foxnews is already indicating that the vancouver olympics that hasn’t happened yet has “lost” money), the short term goals such as job creation probably can’t be debated.
I don’t know where to post this, so I’ll post it here. I’m sure if Buzz saw it, it would trigger a rant. So, to that extent, I’m doing the lord’s work.
First, Joe, so sorry to have missed you in Brooklyn last night. The New Model Army concert was amazing, though.
Second, and mainly. So. I’m sure someone who’s better at this than I am could fill in the blanks of a little experiment to get a sense of what Greinke’s record would be if he pitched for, say, I don’t know, the New York Yankees. I was thinking it would go something like this:
For each of his starts, give ZG the run support that A. J. Burnett got on the same start (first, second, etc.). Why AJB? Well, we *are* your 2009 New York Yankees. And awesome like the discovery of a new planet made entirely of pizza and boobs as ZG may be, if he’s a Yankee he’s the no. 2 starter after CC. Perspective, you know.
And then compare the run support with the number of runs ZG gave up in each start.
And then compute wins and losses.
It’s not perfect, I know. Maybe one of you cleverer types could figure out a way to account for runs the pen gives up. And maybe some kind of penalty at the end for AL Central vs. AL East competition (2 wins? 4?).
All I’m trying to get a sense of is what ZG’s record might look like. Because I’m thinking somewhere in the range of 25 wins or so. And you have to figure that would impress even the stodgiest, cigar-chewing-est, no-crying-in-baseball baseball writer out there.
Not Buzz B., though, of course.
Any takers?
I enjoy both guys, but Joe sometimes has this faux humbleness that’s a bit grating and is, in fact, quite Leitchesque.
And as for pure writing, Joe is no Gary Smith, Or SL Price, or Macgregor, or Pierce or Bissinger, but because he’s a nice guy and writes a blog and enjoys SABRmetrics, a lot of people who usually scorn “mainstream journalists” think his writing is better than it really is.
Joe’s written a nice book on the Big Red Machine. Bissinger wrote the defining sports book of the last 25 years, a book that’s spawned dozens of copycats, none of which have come close to matching the original. He’s a jerk, yeah. But he’s also a superior writer. Just because he doesn’t have access to a blog, doesn’t mean he’s not better.
For all I know, every word of post 95 might be true. But the only thing that would prove is that Bissinger was a better writer 20 years ago.
Mr. Posnanski, I knew nothing about you beyond your work prior to now, and I will most likely continue to know very little about you. I would like to thank you, however, for being one of the apparently few internet denizens who can rise above a petty squabble with some dignity. Whether Bissinger’s outburst was genuine vehemence or poorly delivered humor, your non-response speaks volumes, as far as I’m concerned.
It’s mind-blowing to me how quick people often are, particularly on the areas of the internet devoted to news, politics, and sports coverage, to angrily dismiss others for being rude or disrespectful while being infinitely more so in simply saying so. (This is obviously especially true for those granted the luxury of anonymous handles.) If passive-aggressive posts claiming to be above responding to an issue while simultaneously slandering everyone on the other side of that issue were currency, the internet would be much more valuable than it already is.
So, thanks.
@95- Wait… have we figured out a way to quantify writing abilities? Are you like the SABRmetric version of writing critics? You have measurable stats that prove, without a doubt, that Buzz is “superior”?
Buzz Bissinger is a very good writer. I said so in these comments earlier. But to say he’s out and out superior… that’s a big stretch. He’s different. He’s good. But JoePos does things he can’t and vice versa. If Joe was clearly inferior, then fine, make that call. But he’s not clearly inferior. He’s clearly different. And I prefer Joe.
I’m pretty much oblivious to advance statistics, I have no preference for or against mainstream journalists. I’m a fan of good writing. I’m a fan of Buzz’s writing (some of it) and I’m a fan of Joe’s writing.
I’m not a fan of Buzz Bissinger, though.
@95
Faux humbleness? I’d like to see one example of even a speck of arrogance from Poz. I can’t think of a less accurate comparison than that Leitch-to-Poz jump you just made.
As Eric said, Bissinger may have been better 20 years ago, but as a Deadspin commenter pointed out, he’s now pumping out an “as-told-to” that’s essentially a LebronCorp. press release.
So you’re right, he’s no Buzz Bissinger. He’s better.
My take on Bissinger is that he lacks a sense of humour . . . fully, totally, utterly lacks a sense of humour. Hand-in-hand with that is a lack of perspective.
When put in a position where humour is required, he defaults to a Don Rickles stance. Unfortunately for the man, he doesn’t have Rickles’ wit or brio and what he delivers is low-rent abuse.
It’s sad to watch.
Bear baiting and carnival freak shows – which watching Bissinger most brings to mind – had disappeared by the end of the 19th century. For the sake of this poor creature, it’s time he was removed from public display.
Marcus @95
You forgot to include “in my opinion”.
As Anthony @98 implies, there are no stats to back you up.
And please, don’t quote sales figures. Those are the pitchers’ win/loss records of publishing.
Quality is in the eye of the reader, of course, but I’ve had the good fortune to have Joe’s work arrive on my doorstep three or four times a week for the past thirteen years. At first I didn’t pay much attention to the new guy at the paper. But eventually, I started to think “that’s good,” then “that’s really good,” and then “holy mother of god, that’s impossibly good.” The armloads of national awards speak for themselves. I don’t profess to know every sportswriter inside and out (though I know a bunch), but for guys of his generation, I’ll take Joe and Steve Rushin and be content.
As for Buzz, I have no idea what that was about, but Joe has handled it just right. You can get a better perspective on the world from the high road.
Don’t engage in a feud with this guy. You’ll be fighting on his turf. He clearly knows how to be a raging asshole, everyone already knows he is an asshole, and so any assholery from him will be discounted. Accepted as par for the course.
You have a reputation as someone who is respectful to all. You’re capable of seeing points of view you don’t agree with, and try to keep things civil while still having something meaningful to say/write. That’s not an easy thing to do. Few do it as well as you. Buzz Bissinger sure as hell can’t do it.
So engaging him in a feud will only hurt you. Buzz Bissinger is already seen as a asshole. That’s baked into the cake whenever he comments on anything. You actually have a reputation to protect, Joe. Let him be him, and you keep being you.
I think we can all agree about Buzz being insufferable, but I have to step in to defend Billy Beane. In 2000, Billy Beane’s A’s won the division with Kevin Appier and Gil Heredia anchoring the staff along with Tim Hudson, who was far from dominant (4.14 ERA). Mark Mulder had a 5.44 ERA and got hurt before the playoffs, and Barry Zito pitched 92 innings. Their pitching staff was ok, but they made the playoffs because they could absolutely mash, even though they had the worst defensive outfield (Grieve, Long, Stairs) in the history of baseball. Except Appier, every single guy on that team was homegrown or a shrewdly acquired castoff from another organization. In 2006, they could no longer mash, had no Hudson, no Mulder, a mediocre Zito…and still made the playoffs led by a bunch of cast-offs and throw-ins (Bradley, Scutaro, Ellis, etc.). In-between, we were pretty damn good every year and won every way you could possibly imagine (not just because of Hudson, Mulder, Zito).
Since 2006, Beane’s been forced to completely rebuild for the simple reason that it’s impossible for a small market team like the A’s to sustain that level of success for too long. And he’s done a pretty damned good job of it. With all the bad luck we’ve had with Chavez and Crosby and Harden not panning out, we still have about the same run differential as the Tigers two years after blowing everything up, and have a ton of young talent primed for another run.
Buzz Bissenger has got to be worth a ton of money at this point — successful movie, successful TV show, multiple very successful books, etc. If ever there was proof that money can’t buy happiness, he is it. Very, very sad.
Joe P. is supporting what appears to be a wonderful family doing something he obviously loves to do. If the game of life is a race, you can’t even see Buzz’s dust in Joe’s rear-view mirror.
Please don’t dignify his stupidity with any further response, Joe.
It looks like a bean ball war, between writers, kind of loses some of its edge doesn’t it. I like Buzz’s writing but he does seem like a complete jackass. Buzz you are a dude that writes about sports don’t take yourself so seriously.
Check out the first few chapters of my baseball novel, 33 Summers at http://www.darrenpare.com/
Marcus @ 95,
We’ve been having a debate, and it seemed like there were a lot of different PsOV and it might never get settled, but now you’re here. And just in time.
so…
Oh Wise Master Ranker Marcus,
Your Sorting Ability Rivaled Only By That Of Microsoft Excel,
Please inform us, the Clueless Followers of a Mediocre Scribe…
…How many of the Beatles were geniuses?
All right, enough of these phony feuds. Let’s return to the usual topics, like the wins and hits leaders of this decade* and get into who is the Jack Morris of the ’00s.
*-decade defined as the last 10 years and not the true decade of 2001-10.
The thing’s hollow—it goes on forever—and—oh my God—he’s full of troll!
And you know he’s a Sabathia for CY guy: “He’s got 19 wins. 19! Where would the Yankees be without those 19 wins? Toronto!”
Of all the guys I know named ‘Buzz,’ Bissinger’s the only one who never walked on the moon. Loser.
I have decided to pretend that H.G. Bissinger and Buzz Bissinger are two different dudes That way I can pretend that the guy who wrote my favorite nonfiction book of all time isn’t a giant asshate, and is instead a mysterious Salinger-like figure who wrote one transcendent book and then disappeared into the ether.
Plus, Buzz is a totally ridiculous name for a grown man to use.
Here’s one of my pet-peeves. I truly hate hate hate when people talk about Moneyball and talk about it in the wrong way. Moneyball is a book written by Michael Lewis (and not by Billy Beane, who never asked for this kind of attention) about how the Oakland A’s have won despite having significantly smaller payrolls than their opponents. It is NOT a baseball philosophy, a system of scouting players, a living thing, or the very devil. It is a book. Why can people, and especially frickin’ writers, not understand this?
#95 did you just hold it against joe because he has “access” to his own blog? really?
#112. It was a philosphy. It was an interesting book. It just wasn’t really obp. was it not more about drafting pudgy catchers with good stats (in a symbolic way)?
Somebody…
No, it was a business/economics book, dueled together with baseball.
There were only a few actual truisms that Beane completely followed:
- BA is almost always overrated
- Speed is almost always overrated
- Don’t steal unless you’re good
- Don’t spend early round picks on HS players
Other than that, it’s pretty much all market dependent. Look at the A’s now. Rajai Davis, Mark Ellis, Kurt Suzuki, does this look like the type of guy on the 2002 A’s? Nope, because the market changed. OBP became more popular (even Steve Phillips concedes the point now), teams stopped paying guys like Joey Gathright $5 mil / year to pretend to be a leadoff hitter (outside of the reds), and defense evolved into the undervalued skill set (possibly because of moneyball and its mockery of defensive valuation in 2002, a time when all glove players were in fact overrated in the market). Of course, you have teams like the Rays and Mariners who have jumped all over this apparently inefficiency, and rich teams that spend money much better, which mitigates Beane’s competitive edge.
Essentially what hacks like to harp on is that “Moneyball” is a philosophy doubling as a reason to be cheap for Billy Beane. It’s not. It’s finding talent that’s being underpaid by the market, and paying as little as possible per win added as you can. If they took the time to actually read the book, they would know this.
Marcus @ 95 = Bissinger’s press agent
@ 64:
Uh, no. I’m pretty sure the TV show is known primarily for being one of the best television shows of the last decade. It’s garnered almost universal acclaim and has fantastic acting, writing, cinematography, set design….pretty much everything about it is outstanding, really. The eye candy is nice though. You should watch. Everyone should watch. And buy the DVDs. Basically what I’m saying is that you should give them money so they don’t stop making the show.
Also Buzz is still an ass.
Hey, are we going to get a live blog today? Greinke and Mauer are going to practically the entire country on Fox.
@95
“Access to his own blog”? My 8 year old cousin has a blog. Essentially free as well. Um… What the Hell are you talking about?
Not really related, but the Blue Jays have just fired J. P. Ricciardi, according to ESPN.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4528183
I can’t believe Buzz is really serious. The way he mocks Billy Beane screams out that he is kidding.
What a pindick.
I used to like this Buzz character, but his insecurities are making it real hard to take him seriously.
I’ve been a Cardinals fan since 1964. I have read Buzz’s book on Tony and the Cards. He’s a good writer and it is a good book. But Joe’s prose is much better. If there is a feud, I pick Joe.
@95 – I’m not going to debate you Marcus. I’m not going to sit here…
and debate.
@110 –
“Of all the guys I know named ‘Buzz,’ Bissinger’s the only one who never walked on the moon. Loser.”
- Best comment of the thread
@116
You’re totally right. I guess my statement was more meant as an unfortunate reality that, it appears to me anyway, a very large percentage of people know it only because of Minka Kelly, and only then because of her role as Jeter’s Girlfriend. Should more people know it for the reasons critics and its fans love it? Of course. But the fact that the show is always on the verge of cancellation seems to say they don’t. That’s all.
also, I could be wrong, but I don’t think Buzz had a single thing to do with the show other than selling rights to the name, did he?
Ultimately, the end result is the same….Buzz Bissinger is a tool.
[...] blogger. It was embarrassing to watch. Plus, he very recently started a mini-feud with my man Joe Posnanski. Needless to say (but I will anyway), I don’t particularly like [...]
Bissinger’s Cardinals book sucked, by the way. Filled with a self-congratulatory sense of discovery – about stuff every baseball fan already knew years ago. And he’s still doing it. Clown.
I haven’t read very much of Bissinger’s stuff at all, but it seems like he is at least a good writer, if perhaps a bit behind the times. He’s also a jerk. Some people are jerks. Oh, well. If I were in Joe’s position, I’d be tempted to respond, I’d think about all the wonderful ways I could respond and try to embarrass Buzz, and then I’d…say pretty much what Joe just said. Ultimately, being dragged into stuff like this is not worth it, especially when you’ve got a reputation to uphold.
Re: Moneyball. Bissinger, journalist that he is, is aware that Michael Lewis is really a business writer, no? Was he unaware of “Liar’s Poker” or Lewis’ fantastic coverage of the financial crisis for Vanity Fair? Moneyball is not really a sports book. It’s a business/economics book that uses sports as a sort of case study. And it’s not something that people “believe in.” It’s not a philosophy. It’s basically long-form journalism. Bissinger, of all people, should be able to recognize this.