Oh, I get it … no, wait maybe not
Posted: September 28th, 2009 | Filed under: Baseball | 45 Comments »
It has been a little while since we have done the “Things Managers Say” segment of the blog.
But Pittsburgh’s John Russell deserves his own little corner of Bloggy World for one of the most bizarre explanations I’ve heard about anything. Russell, you probably know, pulled starter Zach Duke with two outs in the ninth inning, even though the Pirates led 11-1 at the time, and even though Duke had only given up four hits and had thrown 103 pitches. Tricky!
Now, let’s be honest: Who really cares, right? I mean, it’s late September in another lost Pittsburgh season. The move is utterly baffling, but let’s be honest: Baffling moves happen every day in Kansas City or Pittsburgh or Cincinnati or Washington or about 20 other cities … it makes for fun talk around town, but nobody nationally really cares.
No … it took John Russell’s explanation to take this move to a whole other level.
“I wanted Zach to have a nice ovation from the fans,” Russell told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. “He did a heck of a job, pitched a great game. We were trying to get him a shutout and, unfortunately, they scored the run. We just wanted to give the fans an opportunity to appreciate what he did rather than the game just being over.”
OHHHHH. Well, sure that makes perfect sence, I mean … wait, what you talkin’ ‘bout Russell? You are really saying you pulled Zach Duke one out away from his complete game because YOU WANTED HIM TO GET AN OVATION? This is your explanation? You’re sticking with that answer?
No, I want this to sink in for a minute. Imagine two Pirates fans in the crowd.
Fan 1: “OK, Zach’s one out away from the complete game! Whoo! You the man, Zach!”
Fan 2: “Yeah! OK, let’s go get out of here.”
Fan 1: “Absolutely. Let’s roll. We’ve seen what we need to see.”
Fan 2: “Exit here we come! Oh, wait, wait, wait … Russell’s going out there.”
Fan 1: “I hope he takes Duke out here so we can give him a nice ovation before we leave.”
Fan 2: “I think it’s going to happen. YEAH! He’s taking Zach out! All right man, thank you, here’s our opportunity to appreciated what Zach did.”
Fan 1: “I know. Nice job, Zach! This is so much better than the game being over.”
Fan 2: “Yeah! OK, Zach’s in the dugout. Let’s get out of here.”
What the heck was Russell talking about? He didn’t think the fans would wait around ONE OUT to give Zach an ovation? He didn’t think a post-game fan ovation would be quite as nice as it was after YANKING DUKE WITH ONE OUT LEFT? Hello! Hello! Hello! Is there anybody out there?
When people say things this ridiculous, I tend to wonder what’s really going on. In this case, I’m guessing — and only guessing — that Russell wanted to get a reliever a little work, and came up with the cockamamie “Nice ovation” spiel on the fly because it sounded better than “I don’t give a rat about Duke getting a complete game. He gave up a run — he blew his chance.”
But maybe not. Maybe Russell really believed what he said, maybe he really believed that Duke would appreciate the chance to walk off the mound with one out left so he could get the raucous “Hey, you almost threw a complete game” applause. You can’t read people’s minds.
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Circle me small-market team.
Circle me John Russell!
Actually, you don’t have to draw a complete circle. Stopping at about 355* should be enough… after all, I want to make sure the folks watching know how great of a circle-drawer you are. A complete 360* turn would ruin that.
Just imagine you had him in on your fantasy baseball team during the FINAL WEEK OF PLAYOFFS where complete games are a stat.
There is no excuse for Hillman not doing this for Greinke in the top of the 8th yesterday. Apparently, in addition to being a bad manager he’s also a massive d-bag.
Your fan scenario is completely implausible: there would never be a “crowd” at a Pirates game.
I understand what he’s saying, not that I agree with it. At the end of the game, you clap for the win, not for an individual performance. Taking him out with an out left makes the cheers for Zach alone. This happens in basketball all the time, i.e. the star of the game, or a graduating senior, etc. will be pulled so he can get recognition for his personal accomplishments, distinct from the team cheering at the end of the game.
Duke is eligible for arbitration after this season, right?
I wonder if “number of complete games” will come up in the arbitration hearing?
Not that the Pirates are tight with their cash or anything…
He could easily have just said, “I left him out there to try for the shutout, once the run scored I decided to take him out.” I doubt anyone would make a huge deal about it then.
He should have said, “Well, it looked like their bats were wakin’ up, and that was a heck of a wind blowin’ out, and they were only back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back-t0-back home runs away from makin’ this a ball game.”
Circle someone other than me for the next seventeen posts… at least.
The best part: the fans were booing as Russell pulled Duke.
I think he made the right call, personally.
Hey guys, I remember a post Poz did a ways back about the manager’s quote (thinking it was Gardy or Hillman from a Things Managers Say) that made no sense. I think it was about hitting some punch-and-judy type high in the order. It was one of the funniest things I’ve read in a while because the blogger (I’m assuming it was Poz) broke down everything the manager said… and it made no sense. I’ve tried everything I can to find that column. Can anyone help me?
How about next time Russell just goes to the mound with a loud speaker, addresses the crowd and says, “Hey, Zach pitched a heck of a game and he deserves an applause separate from the standard end of the game one, so, okay, everyone on 3 we’re all going to clap, so we can all appreciate what he did. Ok, 1,2,3.”
Also, maybe I’m wrong here, but I think Russell was being sincere. Maybe, all this time he’s always thought that the applause at the completion of the game was just a standard thing and didn’t really count for anyone in particular.
Joe,
In a similar regard, I’d like to hear your thoughts on Hillman deciding not to let Greinke pitch to a batter in the 8th inning before pulling him to ensure an ovation Sunday afternoon. I think most fans at the K Sunday afternoon figured Zack was done after the strikeout of Orlando Cabrera, but I also think many were on the fence as to whether Greinke would be sent back out for the 8th, especially with his pitch count at 94 and a 3-run lead. We know Zack’s always been the type to deflect attention, so maybe the opportunity was proposed and he rejected it, but while we’re on the topic of managers trying to give recognition to their starters, I thought this was a similar case.
As a once serious Pirate follower but now only a fickle follower, this one really stands out. C’mon Russell. WTF?!
I’ve turned my life completely around when it comes to my feelings for the Buccos. For years the club made me depressed and miserable. Now, they make me miserable and depressed…..
Or, maybe, he was already gassed, and after talking with him had already felt like he left him in too long, anyway. 100+ pitches is only a benchmark to some people — it depends on what he’s throwing, how he’s throwing, etc. Maybe 103 pitches was already too much, and he just had to come up with something that sounded a little bit plausible for why he took him out.
“this happens in basketball all the time…….” somebody writes upthread. yup, and therein lies the problem–somebody mistakenly doing things you do in other sports in a baseball game. too much sportscenter, not enough common sense. the reconstructed thought process is excellent, Joe…..
I’d echo Nick’s comment@6 (although – like Nick, not justifying).
Of all the games I’ve ever been to, I can only think of one where there was an ovation at the end of the game that was clearly intended for the pitcher rather than the team: and it was obvious because the Detroit crowd (sparse as it was at the time) gave a standing O to the visiting Roger Clemens when he tied his record with 20 K’s (striking out the last batter to do so).
[It was also one of the few times the Detroit crowd ever booed Alan Trammell, and certainly the only time they ever booed him for not striking out]
In European soccer, whenever there’s a 4-0 blowout going on and you’re playing at home, you substitute for your team’s hero of the game in the last ten minutes so he can walk off to an ovation. Leo Messi gets to do that a lot here in Barcelona.
Note: You do not do this when it’s 1-1, the other team is putting up a fight, and you need a goal.
It doesn’t make any sense in baseball, though.
It is kind of silly, but if you look around, this is done alot.
I think he was being sincere, managers don’t give a thought about complete games anymore-any of them.
Some of them will go out of their way to get a pitcher a shutout, and I have seen this before, where a manager sends out his pitcher until he gives up a run, and then pulls him in the ninth. If he had already let up a run, he probably would have started the ninth with a reliever anyway.
I think, as a pitcher, it would piss me off more to be taken out after while having a possible shutout. This has happened to Greinke 5 times this year.
That being said, I hope it happens a 6th time. I hope Zack throws 7 scoreless to get his ERA down to 1.99, and then I hope Hillman takes him out.
Duke has three complete games this year. A fourth would give him a share of the league lead.
Would leading the league trigger a bonus clause in Duke’s contract? God, could the Pirates really be that cheap and petty?
Or, as #7 suggests, is it to take a chip off the table in an arbitration hearing? Duke’s current contract is a bargain: 2.2 mill for a lefty starter who will throw over 200 innings this year.
Hopefully it’s just simple, idiotic overmanaging. The possibilities above are too depressing.
“Some of them will go out of their way to get a pitcher a shutout, and I have seen this before, where a manager sends out his pitcher until he gives up a run, and then pulls him in the ninth.”
Yeah but usually the pitcher has a very high pitch count. If he had a shutout going and gave it up in the ninth with his pitch count in the 120s, then managers pull the plug, understandably. It doesn’t happen if the pitch count is low. Duke had one out left to go and had thrown 103 pitches. He had worked nothing but easy innings. There was no need to deprive him of a complete game up by 10 runs and the pitch count not a factor.
It’s almost like Russell didn’t understand the context of the situation or he really thought Duke could give up a rash up hits like he’d done recently. It’s so dumbfounding. If Russell is that clueless about situations and frustrates his players, he’s really not long for the head coaching position.
So that makes two bone-headed managerial moves for the day involving bad teams. Russell did his stupid thing and then gave his stupid ovation. And then later in the day, Trey Hillman sent Hochever back out to face the Yankees after six decent inning and continued to leave the poor young pitcher out there to get killed for five more runs. Way to mess with the young pitcher’s mind, Hillman. Good job.
Another thing is that I think his teammates were equally as stunned. None of the infielders came in like they usually do when pitchers get pulled. And no, the Pirates do follow that ritual as well.
I was at the game and booed Russell the minute he stepped out of the dugout. There was absolutely no reason for Duke to be taken out of the game. All of the reasons you folks have for why he was probably yanked is ridicules. There was no sense that Duke was anything but ready to finish the game.
Oh, and by the way, the fans on hand would have given him the standing ovation he deserved as he walked off the mound.
What can I say? JR is an idiot.
I suppose if the Pitcher were to finish out the game, the crowd would have cheered mostly for him, but also for the team and for the victory. So, by taking him out with one out left, doesn’t that allow the cheers to be focused on the Pitcher, as he is the only one coming off the field at that moment.
Yes – you do this in basketball or soccer and even for a position player in baseball, but for a pitcher on the verge of a complete game with no chance of losing it – no way!
I love your work, but you’ve missed the boat completely here. This type of thing happens all the time in sports; you pull a player to get an ovation. It seems like you’re just searching for a way to be snarky.
+1 for the Pink Floyd reference
It must’ve been the “DUKE” on the back of the jersey that made Russell feel like this was his chance to get his player a standing ovation from the cameron crazies.
@ #30, Ty: It happens all the time in basketball, not baseball.
@#30:
This wasn’t snarkiness. The reaction in Pgh was universal. The crowd booed (as loudly as it had all year, according to press accounts). The headline in the P-G was “Russell’s hook overshadows Pirates’ 11-1 romp.” Duke said: “I wanted (the complete game) pretty bad. I’m not going to lie.”
Joe’s post was dead-on–except it missed the second inexplicable reason given by Russell for pulling Duke: “He wanted to get reliever Donnie Veal some work.”
That’s our Buccos!
Joe, I’m surprised at you for missing the obvious. Russell wanted to make sure Duke didn’t get his thumb broken.*
*According to The Machine, which I’m sure Russell just read, that’s what happens when you coddle your starting pitcher by letting him go for a complete game.
[...] Russell’s reasoning for lifting Zach Duke(notes) with two outs in the ninth was an all-timer. JoePo 8. Having clinched the AL East, the Yankees turn their attention to the playoff roster. NYT 9. Is [...]
[...] Russell’s reasoning for lifting Zach Duke(notes) with two outs in the ninth was an all-timer. JoePo 8. Having clinched the AL East, the Yankees turn their attention to the playoff roster. NYT 9. Is [...]
When I read that a complete game for Duke yesterday would have given him 4 and tied for the NL lead in CGs I became more angry. If this stunt by Russell was orchestrated by the GM to limit Duke’s winter bargaining power, I am totally going to go apeshit. C’mon guys – that’s beyond the pale….
For you idiots that say this is done “all of the time” I do not even know how to respond. This is NOT DONE IN MLB!!!
RE: Nmark W
It is done all the time in MLB when a pitcher goes out for the 9th to attempt a shutout and loses it. They tried to get him the complete game shutout, which would give him more bargaining power in arbitration than just having another complete game. 2 of his other complete games were 8 inning losses, adding another shutout would have boosted his bargaining power quite a bit.
[...] Russell’s reasoning for lifting Zach Duke(notes) with two outs in the ninth was an all-timer. JoePo 8. Having clinched the AL East, the Yankees turn their attention to the playoff roster. NYT 9. Is [...]
And this is yet another reason why Pittsburg will never amount to anything in Baseball.
What an utter disgrace….
No wonder folks are so glad to leave the Bucos for greener pastures, with such outstanding leadership as demonstrated by JR.
As the man says, “Get in my belly.”
I say it depends on which Zach Duke would prefer: a complete game on his record, or the chance to walk off to a good round of applause and to enjoy game’s end from the dugout. Given the circumstances (10-run lead and no pennant race), I could see a player choosing either one.
The Penguins should play outdoors in that wonderful ballpark. Maybe a Monday Night game with the Steelers?
It’s a shame to see it wasted like this.
I was at the game yesterday and before it even started, I was hoping that I’d get to see a complete game shut-out by my favorite player, just like he opened up the season at home. But I guess it just wasn’t meant to be. Zach was getting ovations all throughout the game after the top halves of innings and when he came up to bat. Everyone at the game wanted Zach to get the complete game and you know Zach wanted it to. Who wouldn’t? What Russell did was a slap in the face to Zach. Zach would’ve gotten a standing ovation when the game was over too. The Pirates’ management has never treated Zach well, so part of me hopes he gets traded to a team that respects him, but I’d be heartbroken without him here.
The season’s over. I *think* Joe Mauer’s the AL MVP. But it’s worth mentioning: Mauer has an OPS+ of less than 177 (it was at 177 starting today’s game where he went 0 for 3 with two walks) and an OPS of 1.031 starting today, both of which lead the AL. Mauer finished with 600 PA on the year. He threw out 26% of opposing base runners and his team finished 11th in the league in ERA.
In 1997 Mike Piazza had an OPS+ of 185, leading the league, OPS of 1.070, in 633 PA (more PA and more OPS+ and more OPS are all better). Piazza threw out 28% of opposing base runners in 1997 (better than Mauer), and the Dodgers had the second best team ERA in the NL (also in baseball, IIRC). Piazza didn’t win the MVP he rightfully deserved. So I will not be surprised if Mauer doesn’t get his MVP, since his season really doesn’t match Piazza’s.
Oh, wait! Mauer’s not facing a hitter or two at a mile up. Baseball figured out that Colorado was worse than steroids, started humidifying the balls, and stopped the travesty. Shame it’s too late for Piazza.