Fettucini, Linguini, Martini, Mangini
Posted: September 28th, 2009 | Filed under: Other Sports | 99 Comments »
I haven’t come up with a new word for a while, so I want to throw one out there .. the word is “fanbole” (pronounced FAN-buh-lee).
The definition is simply: A sweeping, exaggerated and often ludicrous sports statement that a fan makes when under the influence of an emotional sports event (and perhaps various substances).
If you see a shortstop make a diving stop and throw out a runner, you might say: “That’s the greatest play I have ever seen.” That would be a fanbole. It might be the greatest play you ever saw, but it probably isn’t. In that moment, it feels that way.
If you see the Kansas City Chiefs give up against the Philadelphia Eagles like they did on Sunday, you might say: “This is the worst football team in the history of the NFL.” That too would be a fanbole. The Chiefs are terrible, but they are probably not the worst team in NFL history. Probably not.
You call a player the worst ever, a coach a genius, a general manager an idiot — these are probably fanboles.
But one of the fun things about a fanbole is that sometimes, after uttering one (or tweeting one), you will find that after you think about it for a while — hey, you know what? — you ACTUALLY BELIEVE IT.
A few minutes ago, I tweeted this:
“Another one of those fan maybe-overstatement-maybe-not thoughts: Eric Mangini was the worst NFL head coach hire in 25 years.”
Now, I’ll admit — that’s pure fanbole. I cannot stand what Eric Mangini has done to the Browns, the team of my childhood. I cannot stand the lack of respect he has shown for the team’s history, the Mickey Mouse game he plays with quarterbacks, the amazing knack he has for getting his players to not play hard for him or the stupid fines he hands out like he’s Principal Vernon from “The Breakfast Club.” Don’t mess with the bull, young man, you’ll get the horns.
But here’s the thing: Based on the Twitter responses I’ve seen … I’m actually starting to believe that I’m right. I’m actually starting to believe that Mangini really was the worst head coach hire in 25 years. The responses have mostly been to list other coaches who were worse hires than Mangini. But you know what? I don’t think any of those hires WERE worse than Mangini. Remember:
1. Mangini had just been fired in New York, where he had done a terrible job. He had a losing record. His team had collapsed down the stretch, he had alienated his players, he was a pain in the neck to deal with. Point is: He’d already PROVEN how much damage he could do as a coach.
2. He came right out of the school of Bill Belichick … and that didn’t work THE FIRST TIME in Cleveland. It seems to me that Cleveland is a working-class town and Browns fans want a working-class coach — not some pompous know-it-all who doesn’t feel like he should have to explain to the commoners what he’s doing.
3. What had he ever done to convince anyone he could be a head coach in the first place? Why, because he was a defensive coordinator for the Patriots under Belichick for one season? The Browns had JUST HIRED Romeo Crennel, who was ALSO defensive coordinator under Belichick. Attention Cleveland Browns owners, here’s a good hint: BILL BELICHICK IS HIS OWN DEFENSIVE COORDINATOR.
4. Basically the first thing Mangini did — first thing — was have them tear down a mural of great Cleveland Browns players on the wall in the Browns offices. Now, there are differing opinions about what really happened, whose fault it really was, does it all matter, etc. You know what? The Cleveland Browns have never been to a Super Bowl. Never. Not one. But Browns fans still have a whole lot of pride. Browns fans grow up on a glorious history. If you allow something stupid like that to happen on your watch … just a horrendous hire.
Now, here is a partial list of hires Twitter people think were worse than Mangini … and why I disagree*:
*And remember: I’m talking about WORST HIRES, not necessarily WORST COACHES. Sometimes what seems like a good hire can turn disastrous. And sometimes what seems like a bad hire turns out well. We’re talking specifically about the decision to hire Mangini here.
– Art Shell (Oakland): Admittedly this was a dreadful hire … but there’s no way that it comes close to Mangini. Shell is a Raiders legend, a Hall of Famer player, who was also the first African American coach in the NFL (well, second, going back to Fritz Pollard in the 1920s). He actually coached the Raiders to three playoff appearances in five years in his first stint. True, when the Raiders hired him the second time he clearly had lost his coaching marbles … but there’s no way that’s as bad a hire as Mangini.
– Jim Zorn (Washington): Well … maybe. The whole process of hiring Zorn was nutty, and it’s pretty clear that he was overmatched. But Jim Zorn was a fine and fun quarterback, so at least he had that going for him. Plus he had not just been fired as a head coach.
– Bobby Petrino (Atlanta): This turned out to be a disastrous hire … but I don’t think it was considered bad at the time. Petrino was one of the hottest names in college football.
– Raheem Morris (Tampa Bay): Whew, yeah, that’s a bad hire. But, again, at least he was hired from within and he had not just been canned.
– Steve Spurrier (Washington): No way. Not even close. Spurrier turned out to be a horrible NFL coach, but the hire itself was exciting and had every chance to work. NFL teams were falling over each other to hire Spurrier as a head coach. This isn’t even in the same ballpark as the Mangini hire.
– Tom Cable (Oakland): The Raiders should have their own category when it comes to terrible NFL coach hires. But even this hire to me is not as insulting and infuriating as the Mangini hire. I mean, everyone in New York — players, fans, media members, everyone — DESPISED Mangini. I mean, I’m still wondering who in New York Manigini could have put down as a reference.
– Rich Kotite (New York Jets): Well, this hire has many of the same problems as the Mangini hire — Kotite had just been canned, nobody liked him, and so on. But at least Kotite was a New Yorker who had played in the NFL and he had a winning record as a coach. This WAS bad … I think Mangini was worse.
– Scott Linehan (St. Louis): Bad hire, of course, but he was a longtime assistant coach who had success in various other places. He’d coached in high school, in college, he was offensive coordinator for the Vikings and Dolphins. I don’t think the hire itself compares to Mangini, though I certainly feel the Rams fans pain of having to endure two and a half seasons with him as coach.
– Marty Mornhinweg (Detroit): He was considered a bright young coordinator when the Lions hired him — and he’s offensive coordinator for the Eagles now. Plus, he lasted two years with the Lions (long enough to elect to kick off in overtime). I really don’t think Mangini will last the season.
Loading ...
Don’t circle me.
Scott Linehan played a deer in headlights his whole head coach tenure.
But if we are going by your standard that Mangini is bad because he failed elsewhere, then Herm Edwards hired by the Chiefs is worse.
I can only hope the title of this post is a harbinger of things to come. Specfically, a review of the Slappy/Choppy whatever-it’s-called and the Graty.
The fettucini line slays me. Where does it come from?!
The socio-economic status of a team’s fan base should have absolutely no influence on whether or not a coach should be hired or considered a good fit.
I’m going to have to posit the Brad Childress was a pretty bad hire for the Vikings.
1) At the time, they had both offensive and defensive coordinators who were hot head coaching prospects — they let Scott Linehan and Mike Tomlin go because they wanted Childress. Linehan didn’t succeed, but wouldn’t the Vikings look a lot better right now with Tomlin at the helm?
2) He was the offensive coordinator for the Eagles, and EVERYONE KNEW AT THE TIME that he did not call plays; Andy Reid calls his own offensive plays. What does an offensive coordinator do if he has no say on the offense? Well, the same thing he’s done as the Vikings coach: nothing.
Maybe not as bad as Mangini … but he has to be in the conversation, right?
I’ve been harping on this for years. Patriots fan, hate Mangini, classic case of biting the hand that feeds him.
Last season he had a death grip on the AFC East, and what did he do? Had Favre throw 70% of the time in the final 5 weeks, despite his struggles, and despite having the best 1-2 RB combo in the AFC.
But of course, the biggest reason his hire was insane was because the Browns had just fired a guy who had basically the exact same resume as Mangini. Well, outside of being a polarizing asshole.
You Twittered an hour ago on this, presumably thought about things for a while, and then banged out an excellent blog post of greater than 100 words supporting your hypothesis. I am consistently amazed.
On topic: while Mike Tice surely wasn’t as awful a hire as Mangini, I don’t recall any excitement over his supplanting of Denny. And, if anything, Chilly’s subpar results have sure shined up Tice’s reputation. But as a whole, he was just kind of blah.
Was anyone ever less prepared to be an NFL Head Coach than Ray Handley? (NYG, 1991)?
“I mean, everyone in New York — players, fans, media members, everyone — DESPISED Mangini.”
Right, like when they called him the Mangenius after turning a putrid team into a playoff team in his first season and getting heavy consideration for Coach of the Year.
Joe, you’re way off on this one. Mangini was run out of New York because Brett Favre was a one man wrecking crew, single-handedly ruining the Jets in the weeks following their win at Tennessee (which caused man sports writers to call the Jets the best team in football).
You should be writing columns about the massive Derek Anderson contract, or the Brady Quinn debacle.
Herm Edwards, Kansas City. I know, this sounds very much like Fanbole, but consider:
1. Carl Peterson engaged in borderline tampering to start the process. Already, we have introduced possible rules violations, which were not remotely applicable to the Mangini hire.
2. Herm Edwards didn’t actually want to come; he originally wanted a raise in New York and used the Chiefs’ hints as a way to get one.
3. While #2 angered Jets management, Jets FANS already thought he was pretty terrible. The team had some interesting results (the furious rally to win the AFC East in 2002), but interesting does not mean good. He was widely regarded as an awful in-game manager, and his final year and a half in New York had been pure disaster.
4. The Chiefs ended up giving up a draft pick to get him. Mangini came for free other than his salary.
5. Almost no Chiefs fan that I talked to was happy about the hire. The BEST thing I read on the topic was (Whitlock, I believe) suggesting that Carl Peterson was tired of losing seasons. What this meant was he wanted more 9-7 and 10-6 seasons rather than going 6-10 and 13-3. Again: this was the BEST thing I read on the topic. Not exactly awe-inspiring.
6. Herm’s players had once been openly accused of quitting on him by the media. This may have led to the brilliant “You play to win the game quote,” and a furious late-season rally to win the division, but it’s a terrible sign when sports writers (usually unduly positive about their home teams, even in New York) suggest the players have actually quit.
So to sum up: the Chiefs gave up a draft pick and may even have violated league rules to get a coach whose employer and fans both disliked him, who was widely regarded as a poor game manager, whose players may actually have quit, and who wasn’t really that interested in the job in the first place.
At least Mangini really wanted the job and came cleanly.
Herm Edwards is interesting–he did actually take the Jets to the playoffs, and was a successful NFL player, but the fact that the Chiefs gave up a draft pick for him? After he was about to be fired anyway? THAT is pretty bad.
As far as the comment from “fjmanuel,” I disagree (to a point). I agree that you don’t hire a coach SOLELY for the purpose of fitting with the fan base. However, the culture of the team and city does matter. I think the fan base cuts a coach more slack if there is a cultural fit, which gives the GM and/or owner a chance to stick with a good coach through tough times. I think Bill Cowher in Pittsburgh was a better match because of the “fit.” (In fact, Bill Cowher needs to be the coach of the Browns. Period.) Other matches that may have worked better due to the culture similarities: Ditka in Chicago (for as long as that lasted); Belichick in New England (vs. Belichick in Cleveland); Holmgren in Green Bay (he clearly loved his bratwurst and cheese); Schottenheimer in Cleveland/KC; Jimmy Johnson in Dallas. Just off the top of my head, anyway.
Hello? Herm Edwards? Hello? He coached to lose the game! The Chiefs actually gave up compensation to the Jets to get that complete fraud.
The Petrino hire was a good one it seemed at the time, brillant offensive mind getting to work with a unique talent.
Unfortunately it never worked out, what with the whole dog fighting thing.
I’ve always thought that Rod Rust had to be the worst head coaching hire of my life. The guy was like 80 when they hired him (actually, I see now thanks to Wikipedia he was 62, but to a 9 year old he looked 80), he had never been a head coach in the NFL before and then proceeded to go 1-15.
However, in his defense:
1. Vince Lombardi would have gone 1-15 with the 1990 Patriots (although Belichick probably would have got them to 9-7)
2. He had not just done a terrible job at another team before they hired him.
As an 10 year old, I remember thinking the Dave Shula hire was really weird, too.
I think the early 1990’s was the start of the golden age for inexplicable coaching hires. Maybe it should be called the Kotite Epoch.
Mangini was decent in The Sopranos. I liked Tony Soprano, reminded me of Stevie.
I’m a lifelong Clevelander. I can’t remember the last time I didn’t watch a Browns game. I watched yesterday. Every second of it. I’ll be watching next week.
I’ve been defending the Mangini hire, which was unpopular. I knew that you (Joe) weren’t a fan. I thought you were wrong. I convinced myself that maybe Mangini WAS the man to turn the team around.
Basically, I couldn’t bear the thought of the alternative. The truth was to painful to consider, so I didn’t.
But, after yesterday, I can no longer ignore it. Mangini is an unmitigated disaster. Earlier than ever, I’m in the lose for the high draft pick mode for the entire week minus the 3 hours on sunday when i just can’t root against them, no matter how hard I try. Usually, it’s for the draft pick.
Not this year. This year it’s because losing is the shortest route to righting the obvious wrong that was the Mangini hire.
Please Cowher. We need you. I’m not sure how much more I can take.
Joe, you’ve got to put some time restrctions on this thing. When does a coach go from being a bad hire to being a bad coach?? Are we talking about looking at the team after three games?? There’s got to be a statute of limitations on this thing.
And Art Shell wins this in a landslide, BTW…
Joe,
In 2007, I came up with my own idea (although I’m sure somebody somewhere has the exact same idea) called the Kordell Corollary. Here’s what I wrote at the time of Childress’s hiring:
“I remember being so eager to get rid of Tice as a coach. “ANYBODY but him” was the sentiment. Well, we GOT anybody but him. I’m forced to remember when the Steelers were stuck with Kordell Stewart as their starting quarterback for years and years, with their fanbase begging and pleading for coach Bill Cowher to dump him and start someone else, ANYBODY else. And when they got ANYBODY else (Tommy Maddox), there was a brief honeymoon period, before the fanbase seemed to collectively realize, “Hey, wait a second… TOMMY MADDOX is our quarterback?!? How did this happen????” Call it the Kordell Corollary. That’s really the only feeling I have this year about the Vikings, other than total apathy. I’m nostalgic for Mike Freaking Tice (let’s also use his full name). And it sucks.”
This is what seems to have happened with Romeo and Mangini.
I have to defend the Mangini hiring…and I say this as a life-long Jets fan who had nothing but dislike for Mangini the whole time he was in New York.
In his first season in NY, the Jets made the playoffs. In his second, the Jets were bad. In his third, the Jets came close to the playoffs. They did utterly colllapse down the stretch, but I think that has as much to do with Favre as it has to do with Mangini.
I don’t think that Mangini is a genius, but I’ve seen worse. He does come across as an a**hole, but if he had won anything, I’m sure that would have been forgiven. Even Tom Coughlin is now seen as having a loveable side, after all.
I wouldn’t have hired him to coach the Browns, but I think they could’ve done worse.
In Art Shell’s defense he obviously was out of touch the 2nd time around but take a look at his record during his first coaching tenure as Raiders head coach.
Art went 54-38(.586) which works out to a little over 9 wins a season.
Unfortunately for Shell(but happily for us Chiefs fans), Shell went 1-9 against the Marty Schottenheimer led Chiefs. His record against other teams was 53-29(.646).
Was Steve Spurrier really a bad NFL coach or are the Washington Redskins just a really bad organization.
Maybe he’s in a different category, but Joe Kuharich was 17-23 in four seasons at Notre Dame, after which the Eagles made him “coach for life” and gave him a 10-year contract. He lasted five. The high point of his Eagles career was a Playoff Bowl loss to the Colts.
Can we get a special class for Dick Jauron’s extension?
Joe, you should know better, having spent time in Cincinnati.
Dave Shula wins this contest hands down. After working under his father, he was hired by Jimmie Johnson as Offensive Coordinator. He was DEMOTED as a COORDINATOR, then hired by the Bengals as an assistant coach. After one year, he was promoted to head coach at age 32.
So let’s see, the resume consists of:
1. NFL assistant coaching experience, after being hired by his father
2. NFL offensive coordination experience, after which he was demoted
3. Last name of Shula.
Yikes.
“Can’t explain to the commoners…”
Kinda like Dayton Moore
I agree that Mangini was a bad hire, and even more than that a strange hire, but the worst in the last 25 years? Come on.
Mangini had two winning seasons during his three years in New York, and I might refer you to Matt’s comment above about the whole “Mangenius” thing.
He was a better hire than Kotite or Zorn. Probably better than Mornhinweg or Morris. Certainly better than Dennis Erickson in SF. What about Mike McCarthy, who has turned out fine but was hired after a season leading the worst offense in the NFL? Or Lane Kiffin, whose previous experience was as a college coordinator? Jack Del Río was a pretty strange hire. Other than Kotite, that’s just in the last decade. I think this is just fanbole, Joe.
Come on.
Dave Shula for the Cincinnati Bengals.
Terrible from start to finish – only qualification was his last name. The Bengals didn’t even choose the better Shula son, Mike.
This is entire Wikipedia entry about Dave Shula’s coaching career:
Shula’s career as an NFL player was a brief one-season appearance as a wide receiver and kickoff returner with the Baltimore Colts in 1981.
He began his coaching career with the Miami Dolphins in 1982, under his father as head coach.
In 1989, Shula was hired by Jimmy Johnson to be his offensive coordinator for the Dallas Cowboys, a position he held for two seasons. Shula was demoted from that position after the 1990 season, and soon thereafter left the Cowboys to take an assistant coaching position with the Cincinnati Bengals in 1991.
In 1992, Shula was named head coach of the Bengals. At age 32, he was one of the youngest men to achieve such a position with an NFL team. His stint with the Bengals was unsuccessful, however. The team compiled a 19–53 record over Shula’s four and a half years at the helm.
After fired by the Bengals, did he eventually get hired for a coordinator job, a college job, another head coaching job? No. From Wikipedia:
After leaving football, Shula joined the family steakhouse business in 1997 and has helped expand the franchise internationally. He is an amateur golfer, tennis player and marathon runner.
Hands down. Worst NFL hire. Ever.
sirsean:
“I’m going to have to posit the Brad Childress was a pretty bad hire for the Vikings.
1) At the time, they had both offensive and defensive coordinators who were hot head coaching prospects — they let Scott Linehan and Mike Tomlin go because they wanted Childress. Linehan didn’t succeed, but wouldn’t the Vikings look a lot better right now with Tomlin at the helm?”
Point of order — Childress hired Tomlin, who left after one year when he was hired by the Steelers.
Now let it be noted that I can’t stand Childress. He has that air of superiority that drives most people insane. The Vikings could go four straight games without scoring and he would tell you with a straight face that the offense is awesome. I miss Tice because he was honest and one of us. Childress seems to hold himself above everyone; in fact, I think that is a significant reason why the Vikes haven’t been able to sell out recently, despite having a very talented squad.
Obviously, I don’t need to tell you that the man cannot call a decent play to save his life.
But, I think he might have some chops as a front office guy. His personnel moves (aside from the quarterback debacle) have been good, and he knows how to hire awesome defensive coordinators.
So, in my mind, he is not an epic fail. Just a fail.
I think the problem with Dayton Moore isn’t so much that he can’t explain what he’s doing to commoners, it’s that he appears to not understand when commoners try to explain things to him.
Dennis Erickson is miffed that his glorious run with the 49ers didn’t warrant a mention here…
I’m going to have to go with Rod Marinelli. No prior head coaching experience at any level. No prior experience as a coordinator at any level. I’m sure he was an excellent position coach but it was pretty clear even during his introductory press conference that he was going to be completely over matched as a NFL head coach, when he memorably spent more time talking about pounding the rock and showing off blocking techniques than talking about anything of substance. Not to mention the weird dynamic that existed with Mike Martz, a more qualified and successful head coach than Marinelli, being hired as offensive coordinator and immediately clashing w/ Marinelli over the offensive philosophy. Marinelli hired his son in law as defensive coordinator too, which was strange, not to mention the whole thing was approved by Matt Millen. When he started Josh McCown, the back-up quaterback over Mike Williams, former 1st round pick, at wide receiver just to prove a point was when I finally washed my hands of the Lions. Have not watched a game since and couldn’t be happier.
I don’t know, Joe. I like your writing, and I’m not crazy about the Mangini hire. However, this just doesn’t show the kind of analysis that I usually see from you, especially the comparisons with other coaching hires. I couldn’t care less if the NY media liked Mangini. Coaching isn’t popularity. He took a lousy team, got them to the playoffs, and was on the way to doing so again when Favre blew up in his face. Few teams would win with that QB play, and benching Favre clearly wasn’t an option. This whole article feels like you’re cherry-picking to prove your thesis.
I don’t know enough about football to comment on where Mangini ranks as a disaster.
I do, however, find it interesting that Cleveland has run a bunch of Belicheck disciples when the original was no great shakes during his time there.
Should the Jets hire all of Pete Carroll’s coordinators to get to the Super Bowl?
@33 – Curtis says:
“I don’t know enough about football to comment on where Mangini ranks as a disaster.”
Clearly from this column Joe Pos doesn’t either. Stick to writing about small market disastrous baseball franchises Joe.
Kevin Keitzman = the ultimate “fanbole-er”
Quick thought for considerationon the flip-side, spurred on by Linehan’s mention: Who was the apparently worst hire who worked out to be a great coach for the team? Dick Vermeil, by the Rams in 1998, should be in the running. The St. Louis Post Dispatch’s headline the morning after the announcement, if I recall correctly, read simply “DICK VERMEIL????” No one saw that one leading to a Superbowl in 1999. There were obviously many factors leading to that insanely against-the-odds perfect storm of a team (too many to go into in a Comment), but he sure ended up being a great coach for that squad, after a hire that I don’t think anyone guessed was going to work out at the time.
Belichick has to be in the running too. After his less than successful run in Cleveland, his bizarre press conference resigning from the Jets, and the fact that it looked like Kraft was just obsessed with Parcells, it had all the makings of a very bad hire.
Big pos fan here, but that was a dan shaughnessy level post. Little factual data, just gut feeling, wildly exaggerated statements. Joe, you came across like a Jeter for MVP supporter here.
Great topic.
I can think of the perfect baseball version of the Shell hiring: Dusty Baker for the Reds.
First time around, he had a good team, he had Bonds in his prime, he did pretty good.
With the Cubs, it was clear that the game had passed him by, and that the whole sabermetric thing was completely over his head. It was he that invented the term “clogging the bases.” It was he that considered pitch counts to be absurd, and was widely credited for ruining the careers of Mark Prior and Kerry Wood. (and in general, obviously didn’t understand pitching at ALL).
Most importantly (for the future with the Reds) he was particularly partial to veteran ballplayers, and atrocious at working with young ballplayers.
Then, he got a job as a TV talking head after the Cubs dumped him in which he got to spew his Steve Phillips/Joe Morgan brand of complete idiocy ON THE AIR every night, so there was zero chance that any sane person could think he knew a damn thing about running a ballclub in the oughts.
So the Reds, a small market team, with very little money to spend, and a team full of young prospects (particularly young PITCHERS), hires him, and pays him to be one of the 2-3 costliest managers in MLB.
Top that.
Circle me Herm…
Surprised Herm Edwards isn’t on that list. Jet fans were ready to run him out of town, and instead Carl Peterson actually trades a 4th round draft pick to get him after he’s just gone 4-12.
You spelled frettucini wrong.
At least Edwards and Mangini have had some level of success. Two words … David Shula. The fact that he lasted 4 1/2 years as head coach tells you all you need to know about one of the top five worst owners in professional sports, PB’s enduring gift to Cincinnati, Mr. Mike Brown.
I would say that the Chargers hiring Norv Turner was a bad hire. But it followed an even worse decision of firing Marty Schottenheimer.
I think, in time, you will have to add Todd Haley to the list. He had one good season in AZ working with the likes of Kurt Warner, Anquan Boldin and Larry Fitzgerald. And all of a sudden he gets chosen as Pioli’s “golden boy.” Meanwhile, his team hasn’t won a game, and he has already alienated the local press and some of his players.
I’d like to add Mike Ditka’s disastrous tenure in New Orleans to the discussion.
Five years removed from coaching when he was hired, Ditka took a 3-13 team and managed in just three short years to turn them into a 3-13 team.
During that time the Saints went from 29th in the league in scoring to 29th, and from 20th in points allowed to 28th.
And of course Ditka notoriously engineered the entire-draft-for-Ricky Williams trade, which is either the worst NFL trade of all time or the second-worst behind the Herschel Walker deal.
If this is going to be a poll question – and it should be – Ditka belongs in the poll.
To everyone who is posting (legitimately I suppose) that Joe got it wrong and he doesn’t know football and this is gut reaction and not solid analysis, etc…
Welcome to Cleveland Browns fandom. We just don’t even know what the hell to think anymore.
Kotite. A bad hire is a ‘Kotite’. You could look it up.
I thought your fanbole tweet re: JaMarcus Russell = worst QB ever was more accurate.
Have to agree on Dave Shula. Mike Brown will not admit a mistake or eat a contract so we get stuck with Dave Shula for years. Neither the fans nor the players had any respect for the guy. I can only think that Mike Brown expected Dave to bring in his Dad for help so he figured the Bengals could get Don Shula for next to nothing.
As for Dusty – he should have been fired for forcing the Reds to sign Corey Patterson – that’s all you need to know about Dusty’s eye for talent.
Ick – that word just doesn’t scan for me. I end up with the emPHAsis on the wrong sylLAble unless I change the pronunciation to fan-bull. Which admittedly preserves the meaning….
Re: Mikey # 46
The Ricky Williams trade, in retrospect, was decidedly in favor of the SAINTS. The eight players taken with the picks traded for Ricky Williams included Cade Mcnown, D’ wayne Bates, Nate Stimson, Khari Samuel, Desmond Clark, Billy Miller, Lloyd Harrison, and Levar Arrington. Ricky was a much better pro than all of them, despite his troubles. Never mind that the trade created greater than 12 million in cap space to sign free agents (which turned into Joe Horn and 8 other eventual starters.) Ditka failed, but not based on that trade, as objective analysis shows.
beefshower@31. I agree Marinelli was a terrible choice. What better way to turn around a franchise that has won 1 playoff game in 50 years than to hire a guy with absolutely no head coaching experience at any level.
Also, the name Marinelli fits in nicely with the whole Fettucini, Linguini, Martini, Mangini thing.
Lots of commenters confusing bad results with bad hire at the time.
Herm Edwards does not belong in this discussion. His track record at the time KC hired him: 5 years as head coach of the Jets, 1 divsion title, 3 playoff appearances, playoff game wins in 2 of those 3 years, and just a Doug Brien FG (on 2 tries from reasonable distance) from playing in the AFC title game. And one of the two years that he missed the playoffs was the year Pennington broke his wrist in the preseason and missed the first 10 games of the year.
Herm Edwards turned out to be lousy in KC, but with that track record, he’s just not in the discussion of worst hires of all time. He took the JETS to the playoffs 3 times in 5 years. The Jets! Anyone who could do that should be expected to get another job.
As far as Mangini, I assumed when the Jets canned him that he would one day coach again. He was so young, had shown some promise with the Jets. But I assumed it would be after he went back to be a D-Coordinator for several years and had had some time to digest and learn from his mistakes with the Jets (and there were many). I was shocked when he got hired immediately (the word here in NY is that Tanenbaum got him the Browns’ job…not sure what Tanenbaum’s in with the Browns is, but that’s what I’ve heard).
Let me chime in for the long time Chiefs fans with Frank “Crash” Gansz.
Let’s see, John Mackovic leads the Chiefs to their first playoff berth in 15 seasons in 1986, but Gansz, as the special teams coach, gets the credit both publicly and privately, gets Mackovic fired (basically with the ultimatum to Chiefs front office that it’s him or me) and then provides to waste an inordinate amount of talent (especially on the defensive side of the ball) for the next 2 years while leading the Chiefs to 4-11 and 4-11-1 seasons.
Oh, and he lied on his resume too. Seems he told everyone that he was a Fighter Pilot, when he actually flew cargo planes for the military.
And now, as I doublechecking my memory of the facts, see that he died this year, so yeah, I am probably risking bad karma by bad mouthing the dead.
To further my point about herm not belonging…3 playoff appearances in 5 years with jets. 3 appearances in 3 years that his starting QB was healthy. Both times he missed the playoffs (2003 and 2005), Chad Pennington missed most of the season. In 2003 Chad made 9 starts, 40-year old Vinny T. made 7.
In 2005, Chade made 3, 4-th string 42-yeard old Vinny T. made 4, and 3rd string Brooks Bollinger made 9 starts (2nd string Jay Fielder got hurt in the same game as Pennington).
So Herm had made the playoffs every year that his starting QB was healthy.
After his first year with KC, Herm had been a head coach for 6 years and made the playoffs 4 times.
I’ve asked this question many times to people who have claimed that Mangini was hated by everyone with the Jets — if that’s true, why did so many of his former players sign with the Browns this offseason? Doesn’t that fact contradict this thought?
Also, people seem to be forgetting that he was called “Mangenous” during his first season in NY when he led the Jets to the playoffs. And the Jets were thought to be a Super Bowl team last season until Favre collapsed during the last month of the season. Did he forget how to coach when he came to Cleveland?
Joe, you’re not correct about mangini. He was saddled with Favre, was initially not crazy about the signing, watched him fail to reach any deep receiver in the second half of the season, and couldn’t bench him down the stretch even if he wanted to… and still had the team on the verge of a playoff spot.
I bet the Chiefs would be happy to be on the verge of a playoff spot this year.
Not a Mangini fan, but the Jets didn’t seem to quit last year, they just got beat (and beat really hard). I don’t know why the Browns were so quick to hire him. But his hiring is not nearly as bad as some other guys may prove to be.
Why can’t Marty Schottenheimer get a NFL job?
Love the idea, but I think the term “fanperbole” rolls off the tongue a little more easily.
The Browns have never been to a Super Bowl, but the Indians were good in the ’90s, and the Cavs are damn good now. The Chiefs haven’t been to the playoffs in 10 years, and the Royals since 1985.
So which are the longest-suffering pro sports fans, KC or Cleveland? What’s the criteria?
I say KC by a length.
I wonder what there is in the water that makes people think that failed Jets head coaches are geniuses?
kotite. the thing about him though, was that he seemed as surprised as the rest of us.
my golden age of bad coaching was the Mikes. Tice. Sherman. Martz. You could survive a Suicide pool every year by just not picking a team coached by them. They all had decent teams, but would boneheadily cost a game here and there.
@ 44: Richie
I don’t think anyone in San Diego regrets firing Marty Schottenheimer after his epic playoff chokes in 2004 and 2006. Hiring Norv probably wasn’t the greatest move but in the end run he’s been a much better coach than Marty (at least he’s won some playoff games).
However, why hasn’t any team hired Marty? Granted he’s not going to win the playoffs but at least he’ll get you there. Would Browns’ fans be ecstatic if they went 10-6 and lost in the first round of the playoffs by a FG because Marty went conservative?
@60 Greg – The drive, the fumble, the shot, Jose Mesa…You’re insane. It’s not close.
It’s not KC by a length. It’s not Cleveland by a length. It’s Cleveland by a light year.
#60 & #64:
I’ll see your KC and Cleveland, and at least call with Buffalo, probably raise. Buffalo ain’t got much, but what they’ve got–the Bills and Sabres–are the #1 heartbreaker in sports (actually, they just skip heart-breaking and go right to soul-destroying) and arguably a top #10. When you can make a good argument that none of four consecutive Super Bowl losses is actually your “worst” loss (ladies and gentlemen, the Music City Miracle) you’ve got a real peach. I literally ran over my wife in my hurry to leave the house and get some air after that loss. And in case that only earns a tie, I give you our greatest sports legend–Orenthal James Simpson.
Apologies for the long post, but that leads me to my biased vote for worst hire (granted it’s a GM): Marv Levy, five years removed from being enshrined in the Hall of Fame. The T.O. signing was eerily reminiscent–it just reeked of a desperation, but not a “we need to win now” type but rather a “we just can’t think of anything better” version. Maybe not the worst, but the most depressing.
As far as head coach, I’ll vote for whomever the Raider’s next head coach is. Lane Kiffin? Tom Cable? You’d think maybe they’d bring back Gruden, or for unparalleled comedic value Art Shell *again*, but I hold out hope for something truly insane. After all, they could hire Mike Tyson as an assistant coach and who would really be that surprised?
gunther cunningham???
Now, I may not be old enough to remember how bad those late 70s and 80s Chiefs teams were, but this team is easily the least enjoyable to watch in my memory.
Tell me: What is there to root for?
The only player I like watching at this point is Dustin Colquitt. I guess it’s good that he’s getting a lot of playing time.
I’m not necessarily saying that I don’t believe in the front office, but if everything breaks their way, this team is still two seasons away from being watchable.
I really don’t see how they will get a win this year. The Raiders should have been just that, but the Chiefs managed to lose to them at Arrowhead while holding them to less than 200 yards.
Ugh.
Different sport, but I’d put in a vote for Buddy Bell by the Royals
Les Steckel, in 1984 after Bud Grant’s first retirement, needs to be in this conversation.
I agree that Herm Edwards doesn’t belong on this list either. But I did lose a lot of respect for him during his tenure in KC. The straw that broke the camel’s back for me was when he said the Chiefs will get 4 or 5 starters out of the 2007 draft before he even knew who was going to be drafted! Ridiculous.
Re: KC v. CLE
When was your last title in any sport?
Do you remember it?
Were you ALIVE?
Cleveland wins. Beefalo is close (Cleveland has more net failures because of more teams). Of course, Beefalo was Cleveland’s AAA affiliate for a while. Poetic.
Phil Bengsten after Lombardi left the Packers.
Herman Edwards was the single worst coach in NFL history. Whne the Jets amde the playoffs, it was in spite of his incompetence. When you need a fulltime coach to show you how the clock works-a skill my sons’ Pop Warner coaches mastered on Day 1-there’s a problem. And Edwards’ failure made Mangini’s hire by the Jets possible. Edwards’ lack of an idea about what his job was forced the Jets to hire a loony martinet like Mangini. Also, Edwards sent Chad Pennington out on the field with his shoulder hanging by a tendon, wchihw as criminal. And he did it because he wanted to win at any cost. His media persona is b___s___. And why KC hired him was a complete mystery. The guy knows nothing about winning football. I could go on another 45 pages, but you get the idea.
And Herman Edwards for Leon Washington(the 4th rounder) was the best such trade in NFL history.
The one thing that, I think, pushes Art Shell over the top has to do with how long he was out. He hadn’t been a head coach in 12 years. He hadn’t even had an assistant’s job in the NFL from 2001 through 2005. He was a league executive.
The only real parallel I can think of is Frank Robinson managing the Expos/Nationals, but that was after MLB took the team over as a favor to the commissioner.
And I will mention this: while watching on Sunday (as a Ravens fan), I mentioned to my dad that the Browns really need to remember what happened the first time they had Belichick coaching and stop hiring his coordinators.
Pulling Quinn for Anderson might have been the dumbest move I’ve seen a coach make in any game I’ve watched live.
I’ll second Les Steckel, and in fact will compare the Todd Haley hiring to Les Steckel. They were both receivers coaches, are both over the top as far as disciplinarians, to the point of losing their teams early in the first year of their tenure. They had to pull Bud Grant out of retirement to right the ship in Minnesota. Any chance we will see Marty or Dick back on the KC sidelines after an 0-16 Haley first year?
If nothing else, the invention of fanbole ensures that Derek Jeter will lead the league in SOMETHING each year.
ok, so explain this: what are the odds that we have both a “Mangini” and a “Mangino” actually employed coaching big-time football, and yet we thus far have failed to, ah, shall I say, complete the trifecta?
are Bill Simmons and I the only two people disappointed by this?
To all the Herm Edwards bashers, I agree that while giving up a draft pick in order to get him was kind of nuts, hiring him was in and of itself a defensible move, given his track record with the Jets. It didn’t work out, but it’s not like Edwards had proven conclusively beforehand that he couldn’t coach in the NFL.
I think I’d have to go with Dave Shula. Talk about hiring someone solely for their last name. And then letting him stay for four miserable years? How stupid.
On the other hand, the Bengals were going to be a terrible team regardless of who coached them, and I think it’s a greater sin for a good team to sabotage itself with a dumb hire. On that basis, as Brent mentioned, the hiring of Frank Gansz, coming as it did on the heels of a successful turnaround season under John Mackovic, sounds like a good candidate, particularly if the circumstances Brent describes surrounding the hiring are true.
I don’t know much about Phil Bengsten, but I’d say anyone charged with replacing Lombardi would have been facing an impossible task.
Good topic for debate. Lots of candidates.
whoever the Redskins hire next
[...] “I cannot stand what Eric Mangini has done to the Browns, the team of my childhood. I cannot stand the lack of respect he has shown for the team’s history, the Mickey Mouse game he plays with quarterbacks, the amazing knack he has for getting his players to not play hard for him or the stupid fines he hands out like he’s Principal Vernon from “The Breakfast Club.” Don’t mess with the bull, young man, you’ll get the horns.” [Joe Posnanski/Joe Blog] [...]
[...] “I cannot stand what Eric Mangini has done to the Browns, the team of my childhood. I cannot stand the lack of respect he has shown for the team’s history, the Mickey Mouse game he plays with quarterbacks, the amazing knack he has for getting his players to not play hard for him or the stupid fines he hands out like he’s Principal Vernon from “The Breakfast Club.” Don’t mess with the bull, young man, you’ll get the horns.” [Joe Posnanski/Joe Blog] [...]
Top candidates:
Shula (other than being don’s kid, what skill did he possess?).
Les Steckel (my eyes still hurt from watching that year)
Mangini and Edwards – both seemed to get worse the longer they were the coach. Neither coach seemed to be all that good at their job, they had both just been fired, and PLENTY of other good options were available. Don’t forget, there are some proven winner head coaches sitting around right now (I guess this part is about Mangini), and people chose one of these guys? I was truly baffled when both got jobs right away. Baffled.
Raheem Morris might be a candidate, but I’m not sure.
I just took all Raiders off of the list. They are so disfunctional that the award for this category should be named after them somehow.
some of the other nominees above turned out to be bad coaches, but you don’t know that when they are hired.
I love fanbole, btw. It’s rampant in MN this week….
Have to go with Dave Shula on this one. Terrible, terrible coach.
The Kordell Corollary is aptly named. I still can’t figure out why he got such a raw deal in Pittsburgh. He was a better qb in this league than Michael Vick.
I was going to say Dave Shula, but then it occurred to me that an even worse hire was Tiger Johnson. He was the loyal sap who took over on the Bengals sideline when Paul Brown called it quits, denying the man everyone assumed had the job in his pocket, a Bengals assistant named Bill Walsh. So Bill went to the Bay Area instead, and had a fair amount of success.
I submit these:
1. Leeman Bennett: Tampa Bay 1985-86. They replaced legend John McKay with a guy who had spent the previous two years working as an RV salesman. Prior to that he had been fired by the Atlanta Falcons. He went 4-28 over two seasons, and got nothing in return for the #1 overall draft pick in 1986 (Bo Jackson refused to sign). After leaving the Bucs, he has never coached professionally again.
2. Richard Williamson: Tampa Bay 1990-91. Only in Tampa, after the woeful 80s, would you hire a head coach who even had a losing record as the interim head coach. The result: 3-13.
3. Barry Switzer. Since this is not supposed to be about ‘worst coaches’, it’s supposed to be about worst hires. Replacing the coach of a dynasty team that just won back to back Super Bowls with a guy who had never coached in the NFL, had left his previous college job on less than desirable terms, and hadn’t even been active in football in 5 years, is absurdly crazy.
After reading all of the comments, I haven’t seen any that top Leeman Bennett. Among his positions since being dismissed as the head coach of an NFL team: director of development for the Greater Atlanta Christian School.
Ok, just to pile it on a bit more- the starting quarterback for 19 games in ‘85-86: Steve Young. I wonder if any other team has gone 3-16 with a HOF starting QB?
One unfortunate fact about growing up in Tampa in the 1980s, is that when anyone puts out a ‘fanbole’ about something bad in football, the bucs of the 80s probably topped it. Just google “Repus Bowl” and realize that the bucs have won two of these.
Lane Kiffin also seems like a dramatically poor hire– a college coordinator with no NFL coaching experience?
Dave Shula is obviously very painful for Bengals fans, and definitely deserves a top 5 spot.
Troy Aikman was 3-17 in his first 20 games as a starting quarterback.
Peyton Manning was 3-13 in his first 16 games, 5-15 in his first 20. Granted, he’s not in the Hall of Fame yet, but it’s probably safe to assume that he’s in barring some sort of dogfighting conviction.
4. Basically the first thing Mangini did — first thing — was have them tear down a mural of great Cleveland Browns players on the wall in the Browns offices. Now, there are differing opinions about what really happened, whose fault it really was, does it all matter, etc. You know what? The Cleveland Browns have never been to a Super Bowl. Never. Not one. But Browns fans still have a whole lot of pride. Browns fans grow up on a glorious history. If you allow something stupid like that to happen on your watch … just a horrendous hire.
Joe this is bad information. Oh sure it was reported by unnamed sources but it was disproved. What Mangini really did was move the wall to where fans could see it. He moved it to a more fan friendly spot. I get reporters hate him. I get there is a grudge there. But passing along WRONG info weeks after it was disproved is bush. Apologize or fix your mistake.
http://cursedcleveland.com/?p=325
“I apologize for writing it was painted over. I was wrong. That’s what I was told, and it came from several people who reasonably assumed that’s what happened. That’s no excuse for me; I was wrong.” – Patrick McManamon
at least art shell didnt punch his assistant coach.
Please. No where near the worst hire. This is a silly discussion after 3 games, and an even sillier discussion when you put any thought into the craptastic hires that have occurred in the NFL.
The Browns are coming off of four years of Camp Romeo. They need a guy who has coached in the NFL and has shown a willingness to build a team and make unpopular decisions. They need a tough guy.
But, ignoring the rhetorical tool to get us to assume Mangini is in this class, just for fun lets think about bad hires:
The niners had two terrible hires in a row.
Dennis Erickson then Ted Nolan?
No and No. Especially no on Erickson, right after he took a dump on Seattle. No one thought that would work.
And at Nolan’s first press conference… well, you could just tell he wasn’t a reader. Mangini is brusque but he’s not a mouth breather.
Nic Saban might have been hot, but Cam Cameron was an insta-bust.
Rich Brooks was a lock of a bust.
Al Groh?
For gods sake the chiefs TRADED to get Herm Edwards. He might be a likeable guy, but no one thought that was going to work. The AFC west basically chuckled.
Can I get a Joe Bugel?
Look, I’m sorry you are a Brady Quinn fan, and I’m sorry he’s not going to be a pro player. That’s not Mangini’s fault. He was basically forced to start Quinn and let us all see what we were dealing with, in reality, not on EAS commercials or Teen Beat magazine covers, Quinn don’t got it. Sorry. He was supposed to be “NFL ready” when he was drafted. He ain’t. Get over it. Quinn can’t play and no coach would play him.
And the hype over Mangini’s decoration changes is way overdone. I’m starting to think, Sr. Poz, you are in bed with Tom Condon.
Lou Holtz with the Jets in ‘75. The Petrino of his time.
Gawd I’m old…
I just read your article about mangini being the worst hire ever.
this is what we are saying in cleveland too!
i started a website that had 1000 hits in one day!
and we have a petition going around with over 2500 on it!
http://sellthebrowns.com
Jamie
Thanks djl, that’s interesting info on Aikman and Manning. As soon as I read it, I remembered those tough years for those teams.
I stand by my Leeman Bennett claim. Nice to see that SI put up a photo collection of bad hires. Bennett didn’t make it– would have been neat to see a pic of him standing next to an RV or something.
Posnanski’s arguments for Mangini being the worst ever are really soft:
1. Not having a winning record as a Jet’s head coach. Feel free to list all Jets coaches with winning records during their time as Jet’s head coach… Bill Parcells, and…. and… oh, that’s it… since they became the Jets in 1963… one winning coach… Mangini’s overall record 23-25. Plus he had a winning record in two out of his three seasons. Including a winning record last season.
2. Cleveland needs a working class coach? What the heck does that mean? A subjective rating of how ‘blue-collar’ someone appears to be…
3.’What had he ever done to convince anyone he could be a head coach in the first place?’ Two winning seasons in NY as head coach. A 10-6 record in his first year with a team that was 4-12 a year earlier. He had been involved in coaching NFL teams for several years, and had previously been offered def. coordinator positions at other teams.
4. He tore down a mural or something… Well, as was pointed out, this happened after the hire, so it reflects more on his time as a coach, and not so much on the hiring process. Perhaps they should screen future Browns coaches by walking the by the mural and asking “Anything here you’d like to change if you were head coach?”
I doubt Mangini will work out long term at Cleveland– particularly not after an 0-3 start, but if he was the worst hire in the past 25 years, why could Posnanski write this stuff before they were 0-3.
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2008/02/11/jim-zorn-to-the-redskins-probably-the-worst-nfl-hire-of-all-time/
worst hire ever. at the time of writing.
[...] they want to fire me after only three games? We’re not even to the bye week and I’M THE WORST NFL HEAD COACH HIRE IN 25 YEARS? ARE YOU SHITTING ME, JOE PO-WHATEVERYOURNAMEIS? I’M [...]
How did the 49ers hiring of Dennis Erickson not even make the list? It showed fans the organization wasn’t even going to try to win. Hands down worst hire in 25 years. Mangini’s garbage, but at least he seems to be stocking up on picks for the teams future without him.
“I mean, everyone in New York — players, fans, media members, everyone — DESPISED Mangini. I mean, I’m still wondering who in New York Manigini could have put down as a reference.”
Tony Soprano?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0995838/