J.P. Morgan Chase
Posted: September 25th, 2009 | Filed under: Baseball | 68 Comments »
I believe I started a pretty recent post with this: I don’t really get Toronto GM J.P. Ricciardi. I suppose one of the things that I try very hard to do as a writer is understand (best I can) people’s motives and inspirations and fears and all that. I do try this, even if I find myself put off by what they do or what they say. For instance, I finally tracked down Michael Jordan’s Hall of Fame speech. I have always loved Michael Jordan from afar. He is not much older than I am, and he was a freshman at North Carolina when I was a freshman in high school in Charlotte. I watched just about every one of his games in college on TV, saw him play at a college All-Star Game in the old Charlotte Coliseum*, hated him for beating the Cavaliers, watched him play minor-league baseball, was in Indianapolis for his return to basketball and so on.
*Two lasting images from that night:
1. Standing next to Danny Schayes and realizing, “Yikes this guy is TALL. No, seriously, he’s REALLY TALL.” Years later, I would MC an even featuring Dolph and Danny Schayes — both preposterously nice guys — and I would tell him that story, and he smiled and patted my arm in that, “So … you’re a sportswriter, eh?” sort of way.
2. Waiting outside to get Michael Jordan’s autograph. There were a lot of people waiting to get his autograph, of course, but I remember someone in our small group decided to wait at a different door. And sure enough, Jordan came out that door … there were probably only seven or eight of us then. We walked with Jordan and he signed every single autograph, and then it was just me and we were at Jordan’s car. And just as he was about to reach to sign the autograph, someone screamed: “Hey, THERE HE IS.” You know, like a Beatles movie. And Jordan looked at me, and even though I was never really an autography guy, I will always remember his words: “Sorry kid, I gotta go.”
In any case, I had heard about Jordan’s Hall of Fame speech — read my buddy Woj’s excellent column on the subject — and how it came off petty and bitter. But I had not heard the WHOLE speech until a couple of days ago. And … yeah, in parts, it came off petty and bitter. It made me sort of sad because it seemed to me that Michael Jordan was still up there competing, settling old scores, raging against the machine … and he’s MICHAEL JORDAN. He’s the best basketball player who ever lived. This is an almost unanimous opinion — I don’t know that any other athlete in American sports is so widely viewed as the best ever. Baseball: Babe Ruth or Barry Bonds or Willie Mays or Ted Williams or Walter Johnson or Roger Clemens or Pedro Martinez or Albert Pujols? Football: Joe Montana or Walter Payton or Jerry Rice or Jim Brown or John Unitas or or Otto Graham or Lawrence Taylor or Reggie White or Tom Brady or Peyton Manning? In hockey, I would think Wayne Gretzky is a fairly clear choice but many real hockey fans tell me there’s no way he touches Bobby Orr or Mario Lemieux or …
But Jordan: He’s pretty widely viewed as the best. It isn’t that Wilt or Bill Russell or Magic or Larry Bird or LeBron James or Kobe Bryant or Oscar Robertson or others aren’t in the discussion. But Jordan seems to have won. And yet, he could not let go of the few people who doubted him. And, though it makes me a little sad … I do think that maybe I understand. The lion roars. Michael Jordan was the greatest basketball player I ever saw. And it seems to me he simply was not built for retirement. He cannot tolerate the day-to-day. He never could. He needs action and movement and a game to win and people to beat and a scoreboard to let him know that he’s the best. He had to make the most money. He had to score the most points. He had to win whatever game he was playing. He had to have a ton of cash on the line. And now it’s over, and all that’s left is the day-to-day.*
*Remember the line in Arthur: “Not everyone who drinks is a poet. Some of us drink because we’re not poets.” One of the most fascinating things to me about great athletes is that we often look to them to inspire us … and yet it is often something wanting and unhealthy in their lives that led them to that greatness in the first place. Take a simple assumption: Barry Bonds is a jerk. There are enough people who would back that up. So, riddle me this: Was Barry Bonds a jerk because he was a great baseball player. Or was Barry Bonds a great baseball player because he was a jerk? Was Pete Rose’s desperate desire to win his fatal flaw as a gambler, or is it what made him inescapable as a baseball player in the first place? Did Larry Bird’s absurd work ethic represent his hunger for greatness or was it an escape for a lonely and even haunted young man growing up poor in a small town in Indiana?
The point here is that I find myself understanding Jordan or at least trying to understand what might be behind his words.
No, that’s not it. The point here is that I don’t get J.P. Ricciardi. He comes at things from so many different directions, that I simply can’t follow. On the one hand, he was by many accounts a great scout, on the other hand as soon as he took the job as GM of the Toronto Blue Jays he was hostile toward scouts. On the one hand, he is viewed as a sabermetrics guy — an INFORMATION guy — on the other I don’t really see much real evidence of that.* On the one hand, he pretty openly came in to Toronto with the intention of making the Blue Jays a lean machine that would not need to spend a lot of money to compete, on the other hand he has handed out some rather exorbitant and crushing back-loaded contracts (perhaps driven by an over-eager owner … but it’s his permanent record). On the one hand he seems a smart guy, on the other hand several people who have worked for him have told me that he does not want dissent or thoughtful dialogue in his organization, which is pretty dumb for someone trying to beat the Yankees and Red Sox.
*I thought his Adam Dunn crack — “Do you know the guy doesn’t really like baseball that much?” — more or less disqualified him from being considered a stats guy.
“You would really like J.P. if you got to spend some time with him,” one friend in baseball told me. “He’s really a good guy and a good baseball guy.”
“You would really hate J.P.,” another friend in baseball told me. And so it goes.
But this is not about liking or disliking the guy — I honestly have no personal opinions about him other than disliking a few of the quotes I’ve seen. And it’s not even about the job he’s done in Toronto — I’ve already said way too much about that, I guess.*
*Have you noticed that Alex Rios has a 10 OPS+ in Chicago. I mean, it’s only 133 plate appearances which is virtually meaningless — but his OPS+ is still A TEN. I know a lot of people think Rios will rebound because he’s a great athlete. And I know that a lot of people think that because of his defensive talents (which appear to have gone out the window this year — is he hurt?) and because of the likelihood that he will rebound, his backloaded 7-year, $70 million contract that runs through 2014 is actually a GOOD contract. Some of the people who believe this are a lot smarter than I am.
But … I think it’s at least possible that in this case, I’m right about that being one of the worst contracts in baseball. It’s not the Vernon Wells contract, of course. But that might be like comparing Wade Boggs to Rickey Henderson. And … Vernon Wells has actually been hot the last three weeks.
No, this is about understanding him. Ricciardi gave this fascinating interview the other day to The Canadian Press.* It’s fascinating because like virtually everything I read or hear about Ricciard, I don’t know what to make of it. I really have no feel at all for what he’s trying to say. As Primer commenter “Sleepy supports S.S. at second” wrote: “Reads like an interview given to a bartender in some seedy bar at 3 am… I kept waiting to see a stylized ‘hiccup’.”
*I love, the fact, that there’s something simply called “The Canadian Press.”
Who are you?
I represent the Canadian Press.
OK, well, come in. I mean, if you represent the Canadian press, I definitely want to talk with you.
Near our house, there is a bank called “World’s Savings.” I love that. Every time I go by, I say to Margo: “Hey, look, right there, all of the world’s savings in one place. So convenient. They must have a HUGE underground safe.” This never fails to annoy my wife, much in the same way that it never fails to annoy her when we pass Webster University and I say that they must have classes there teaching kids how to mug for the camera when Alex Karras says something funny. Yes, it’s not easy to live with me.
In the interview, Ricciardi’s main point seems to be that even if he gets fired, the Blue Jays will suck for years to come. I am probably amplifying the point … but only slightly as you can see from this most excellent use of the third person:
“Let me make this clear: It doesn’t matter if J.P. Ricciardi is the GM, or Joe Blow is the GM. Two years from now, five years from now, seven years from now, the reality that we face in Toronto is the division is not going to change. The Red Sox and Yankees are not going away. If the Yankees want to, they can take their payroll to $300 million.”
First off, Joe Blow is one heckuva baseball man who takes WAY too much abuse. He pitches (“I don’t care if you’re facing Randy Johnson or Joe Blow …”) he hits (“Hey, that’s Albert Pujols up there, that’s not Joe Blow”) he writes (“Then you got Joe Blow up in the press box writing like he knows”), he does it all. Joe Blow might be PRECISELY who the Blue Jays need at this time.
But more … is Ricciardi asking to be fired here? It sounds like it. And if you missed the point, he follows with this:
“If we’re going to play in the big man’s division, and we’re not going to spend that money, it’s going to be really hard for us to compete with those teams.”
Forget how absurd that sounds one year after Tampa Bay went to the World Series. Just read it like you’re the owner of the Toronto Blue Jays. Does that sound like the general manager you want running your team? Maybe I’m reading too much into it … but that sounds like a call out. And a public call-out is how you get yourself fired.
The rest of the interview is littered with a lot of “We’ve done the best we can and if that’s not good enough then that’s not good enough,” stuff … I honestly cannot tell if it comes from a man resigned to being fired or from a man who is passionately and proudly defending his record or from that place that I just don’t understand. I’m not saying it’s easy to win in Toronto … but it’s not easy to win anywhere. Every place has its unique challenges, including New York and Boston. And as a GM you get paid a whole lot of money to win despite those challenges.
I guess I just don’t understand Ricciardi, and really haven’t for a long time. I remember when he came out and made those cracks after the Royals signed Meche — basically said that Meche was obviously a loser who did not want the pressure of playing in a pennant race and as such he was glad that Meche chose the Royals over the Blue Jays. It was insulting to so many people on so many levels that I just thought: That guy’s just a hothead who cannot handle losing and thinks he’s smarter than everyone else in the world. I have tolerance for plenty … but not much for arrogance.
Then, he apologized. And a bunch of people around the game told me that, no, I had it wrong, Ricciardi was good people, a great baseball guy, and he just sometimes says stuff without thinking. Well, OK. I’m like that too sometimes. So I have tried to see what they so obviously see. But, you know, I might have been right the first time. In the interview, Ricciardi said that he thought a lot of people wanted him to get fired and to see his world come crashing down. Well, Nixon-like as that may sound, maybe he really has made a lot of enemies who want to see him destroyed. I don’t want that at all. I really do hate to see anyone get fired, and I really do hope that anyone who does get fired can find another job or can have enough money to travel the world and spend time with family and whatever.
I hope J.P. Ricciardi has a wonderful life. I suspect he will. But will he turn around the Toronto Blue Jays? No, I don’t see that. And I don’t think he sees it either.
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Entourez-moi incompétent pour courir une équipe de baseball ! !
At least Toronto has Snider, Romero and Rzepczynski coming down the pipe – with Rios off the books it might just be possible to build something cost-controlled around these guys and the young 2007 draft class. I’ll give Ricciardi a couple of years to see if that plays out before I call him a complete bust.
Definitely sounds like a guy wanting to get fired. We Blue Jay fans are ok with that, but at the same time I’m not sure what we have to look forward to from the next guy.
I guess I don’t get the Canadian Press joke. Being from the ‘Associated Press’ is pretty much like saying ‘American Press’, or ‘United Press of America’.
Cheers.
The part about World Savings cracked me up. I get much the same results from my family each time we pass Resurrection Cemetery and I wonder why they need headstones for people who have already come back. (Or something similar, since I don’t like repeating myself that much)
I think what it is, is defiance. Partly directed as a defense of what he has done to stop people from trying to get him fired and partly at his owner who it would appear hasn’t given him carte blanche (or should I say carte Yankee?)
Regardless the truest thing said in his interview or your article on it is that he doesn’t think he can succeed in Toronto either and, frankly, that ought to be more than enough to get him fired no matter how good or nice he may be.
If JP is so sure that it doesn’t matter what they do, he should have taken some kind of deal from the Phillies for Halladay to try and build up the system. Doing nothing won’t change anything other than to guarantee that Halliday will stay in the division when he hits free agency. I like Cliff Lee, but I love Roy Halliday.
Being a Phillies phan, I hated the Reds of the ’70′s. But there is no doubt they were interesting and I will be sure to read your book. Pete Rose alone must be able to fill a couple of volumes.
Joe, the Rays proved that they were a one-hit wonder. For a team like the Rays, Jays and Orioles to win the AL East, everything has to come up aces; everything has to fall into place.
J.P. Ricciardi can turn around the Blue Jays. But it can only happen with a payroll upwards of $120 million. That is the ONLY way.
Well, the other way is to move the Jays to the Central, but we all know that isn’t happening.
Ricciardi’s a lame-duck right now. The Jays still have an interim president in Paul Beeston. He knows that with a new president comes a new GM, and likely a new manager.
According to sources in Toronto, the Jays’ brass wants Beeston to stick around; they are turning down every name he comes to them with. If Beeston sticks around, and payroll increases, Ricciardi might stick around. And I for one would love to see that happen.
He’s the worst GM in the AL East I’ll tell you that.
“Giant Food.” I’ve found it funny ever since I moved here.
@#3
There is a lot of press in canada – for one to call itself all of Canada’s press is certainly noteworthy, don’t you think? I mean people may view the AP as the american press but it would certainly be worse if they named it that, don’t you think.
This is a matter of being literal when you see signs/names etc. I do it as well and, like Joe, I find it amusing and my family doesn’t always ahree
@#7 – One hit wonder or not, the Rays WON with much less than 120 million in payroll so clearly you are mistaken to say “But it can only happen with a payroll upwards of $120 million. That is the ONLY way.”
Clearly it is not the only way to win. And, by the way, the rays were still better than the jays this year despite being way out of it.
Not to mention that they still have the nucleus to challenge next year as well. There really are other options despite spending a lot of money being the best (easiest?) option.
@mike #9.
Just because the Orioles pulled off one good fleecing of Bill Bavasi doesn’t mean they’re not in shambles.
Andrew Friedman inherited quite a bit of talent though stealing from Longoria for years to come is admirable enough.
Give JP some credit, he engineered enough good moves to build one of the top 8 teams in baseball over the past 5 years. Attendance and revenue went up, he didn’t throw Halladay away for the sake of doing it.
Just because the results don’t reflect the quality of the process doesn’t mean he’s clueless.
I’m afraid I annoy my family way too much too. I like to do it during commercials. Like the Corona commercial where the guy throws his cell phone in the ocean (tries to skip it like a rock). If he didn’t want to be bothered, why did he bring the cell phone with him?
On the things I find funny that my wife oddly doesn’t front…
On the drive from Indianapolis to Cincinnati, there’s a billboard for Craig, Kelly, and Faultless. They’re personal injury attorneys.
I always remark how a guy named Faultless should definately be a defense attorney.
Here in GA, many liquor stores are called “package stores.” As in Firehouse Package, Oak Street Package. Apparently, the state is too ashamed to admit its residents drink, but is okay with their sneaking out of the store with a mysterious brown bag. Heck, could be anything in there…it’s just a package!
Actually, I do need to buy a “package.” And when I get home, I sincerely hope that the mysterious package I acquire contains a six-pack of High Life.
There was also a chiropracter where I grew up named Dr. Fix. Or maybe it was Dr. Fixx.
I tried to look up which it was but the google page produced a result for a product called “Dr. Tranny’s Instant Shudder Fixx.” I’m not sure if that’s auto- or fetish-related, and it scares me, so I’m closing that window now.
It’s about time for that “package”, I think.
Joe, everyone knows that Webster University is where you go if you want to be called “The Human Eraser.” And have no jump shot.
Sorry. But I am trying to resist kicking JP Ricciardi for being an idiot.
I should like JP because he’s from Worcester and well us Massachusetts boys are supposed to stick together. Especially if we aren’t from Boston (I’m from Agawam). Anyhoo, I started to stop liking him when he sent Orlando Hudson down to the minors for calling him a smooth pimp. Hudson meant it as a compliment and JP didn’t take it that way. When he did that I knew Toronto was doomed. You can’t be that thin skinned as a GM, especially a baseball GM. (I do like the Polack they got for a pitcher Rzepczynski. What a great name.)
Although I don’t make the joke out loud when passing these convenience stores, Kum’n'Go always gets a giggle from me.
There’s not much explanation needed for this one but there is a doctor in Toronto that performs penis enlargements. His name … Dr. Stubbs. Don’t believe me then check it out http://www.psurg.com
Joe: Be real now…When was the last time that you said or wrote something especially hurtful about someone else before thinking about it?
I’ve been reading your stuff for a year now and I just don’t think that it’s in you…Heck, you still defend Dayton and Hillman much of the time, no? Leo Durocher might not think much of you and your kind but I appreciate your gentleman decency.
The issue with Toronto is that the margin of error is so slim. You can’t keep pace with the Sox and Yanks in spending…trying to do that for 2 years was disastrous (trading for Glaus and Overbay, signing Ryan and AJ, extending Wells and Rios, etc.) and the following reasons make it impossible to rebuild completely and survive in the market:
- apathetic casual fans due to a 16 year playoff drought
(seriously – Toronto sports fans are like U2 fans who talk about how they like their “old stuff”…you never meet anyone who says they are a diehard Jays fan or loves anything U2 has put out since Achtung…other than me, sigh.)
- a perception that the Dome (Rogers Centre) is outdated and obsolete
- as of this year, that the team and management are a mess
I don’t think the Jays can afford to be bad for five years and still be in Toronto when the system is deep.
I also don’t think they can go on the kind of spending binge people think they will have this winter because of some magical accounting ($130MM???) quoted in some interview by Rogers’ CEO and Paul Beeston.
That leaves 2 choices:
1. The Milwaukee way – rapid fire tear down, build up plus a dramatic all-in wager to make a single season run
2. Hope for a league-level dramatic change, i.e. swapping divisions with the Mets or adding an extra playoff spot
I think it’s admirable that he’s had mid 80 win seasons and would have likely made the playoffs in other divisions during his reign. It’s also mindboggling how much bad luck the Jays have had with run differential and injuries to pitchers.
However, JP’s biggest problem has always been his mouth. No one would kill him for failing to deal Halladay if there was never a good offer for him…if he hadn’t yapped about it for a solid two weeks. No one would kill him for failing to find a true power hitting .900 OPS DH/LF/1B type if he hadn’t shut the door on Adam Dunn. And no one would kill him for having to spend less than NY/Bos if he didn’t keep spending money and then chasing guys away (Thomas, Ryan, Rios) or letting them go for nothing in return (Delgado, Burnett).
All the young pieces he points to were always there, and he didn’t use them until really desperate – sending Lind down after 19 AB, filling a rotation with Ohka and V Zambrano instead of Marcum and McGowan, etc.
He isn’t that bad a GM, but his personality, inability to demonstrate a consistent philosophy and tendency to blame everyone but himself seals his fate and it won’t be a dark day when he’s finally let go.
Sorry for Joe Posnanski’ing all over this post. (I mean that in a good way!)
I should also like to point out that I have just received a coupon book for Toronto restaurants, and saw that there is a restaurant here called Indian Food Restaurant.
That place sounds awesome.
@eyebleaf
Sure there’s a way to compete with Boston and the NYY–just do what Tampa did and lose for 8 years, drafting well all the while. Of course, that’s where ownership really does come in, as its pretty tough to sell that level of rebuilding to a fanbase
The ultimate problem was that JP tried to build a team in basically the same way as the Red Sox front office, except with less money and all by himself. You’ll lose that every time.
Also, it’s worth noting that the O’s had the highest payroll in the division (possibly even the highest in all of baseball) for a few seasons about 15 years back.
There is a surefire way to compete with the Yankees or Red Sox.
Find a Russian/Middle Eastern billionaire to buy the team for a ridiculous premium over its value, hire good stat guys, and then spend $300 million in payroll per year. If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.
And “they” *can* be joined this way (see the English Premier League–Chelsea, or more recently, Manchester City). Baseball is as ripe for this global tycoon approach as soccer, since there are no salary caps.
@ #19:
Here in Iowa, we call the Kum & Go the “Ej*culate and Evacuate.”
Of course, we also take pride in the fact that Ashton Kutcher is from here.
So, ya know…take that for what it’s worth.
How is a GM supposed to sell, to owners or fans, the Tampa Bay philosophy of team building? “Uh, my plan is to lose at least 90 games a year, preferably more, for 8 or 9 seasons in a row. If we’re really, really bad, we’ll get super high draft picks. Sure everybody in baseball will laugh at us the whole time, but the joke’s on them because in 2019, maybe 2020, we’ll finally make the playoffs. That is, assuming everything falls into place and that journeyman 1st baseman we picked up from the scrap heap in 2018 hits 40 HR.”
Your bias shows through when you rattle off a bunch of NFL greats vying for greatest ever and you don’t even whisper John Elway.
JP sounds like an ignorant dictator. People like him personally and he tells great stories but he is running his team (country) into the ground.
But seriously as long as the Sawx and Yankees are soooo rich and reasonably smart, baseball could be wrecked in the division’s other 3 cities. This is why I keep saying the AL has to go back to 2 seven team divisions and 2 wild cards. You have the Yanks and Sox in the playoffs 80% of the time, and the other 12 teams have a more or less equal shot at the other 2 spots.
JP doesn’t sound like a guy who wants to get fired, he sounds like someone who knows he’s about to get fired.
J.P Ricciardi is in fact an excellent GM, one of the three best in the league. Please read this:
http://mlbinsights.wordpress.com/2009/08/02/jp-ricciardi-is-an-excellent-gm-and-i-have-numbers-to-back-it-up/
Elway?? Come on Scotty that is ridiculous. Elway is the Derek Jeter of football. Maybe.
Thanks Joe. Finally someone comes to my defense! Heck, even I could put up a higher OPS+ than Rios.
Joe,
I thought you would enjoy this quote from Denard Span, who was recently hit in the back of the head with a pitch.
“Oh, yeah. My onbase percentage is pretty good. The other night after getting hit in the head, I was walking off the field and said to myself, “Onbase percentage,” so …”
Fortunately, my wife plays along with my “mals mots” as long as I don’t run ‘em into the ground.
If she says she needs to curl her hair before we go someplace, that’s my cue to say helpfully, “I could tell you stories that would curl your hair.”
Of course, tonight she saw the Tour Championship mentioned on TV and asked, “Who’s the sponsor?” I told her it’s Coca-Cola, and she said, “Then why don’t they call the tournament the Coca-Cola Classic?”
Yes, she makes me laugh… a big part of why we’ve been together 25 years.
There is a small farm near my house, with a donkey who is always standing near the road.
And every time I drive by, I say out loud to whoever is in the car, “Look at that ass!”
My daughter has grown to loathe this.
Off-topic:
Yuni-corn has really effed it up tonight. The sound on the tv was down, but I don’t think Frank and Ryan said anything of note with regard to his UZR.
“Stats” guys always hate the stats guys that actually get hired..
@10
“There is a lot of press in canada – for one to call itself all of Canada’s press is certainly noteworthy, don’t you think?”
Actually there isn’t a newspaper that calls itself the Canadian Press, it is a sharing of content of a number of newspapers that belong to it across the country. I believe the largest paper to opt out or soon opt out is the National Post, but the other major newspapers in the country belong to it and feed content to share.
Ryan Levebvre just said “Mauer is a good hitter, probably the best in the American League.”
Isn’t it clear that the guy is the best in the majors? Am I wrong here?
The little store I have just can’t compete with that big store across the street. I mean yeah, I’m paying $128 million to the teenager who stocks the shelves incorrectly. And $50 million to the old woman who cleans only one aisle and then goes home. But yeah. Big mean store across the street. So unfair!
The Jays are in a Catch-22. The fans won’t come out unless there’s a playoff team, but they’re not willing to spend the money until the fans show their support.
Everything SA [#22] said is true. People don’t come out to the Dome anymore because it’s not the “in” thing. It was considered a marvel in its day, but a few years after it was built, retro parks became all the rage and the Dome was considered an uncool dinosaur.
As much as I hate to say it, Toronto’s not a sports town, it’s an event town (and to curb any argument, it’s not even a hockey town – it’s a Leafs town.)
Going to watch the Jays used to be an event. Now, because the team’s usually been good, but only middling relative to the beasts of the AL East (I have no doubt they would have had a couple of playoff runs during Ricciardi’s time if they played in any other division), and because the Dome has lost its cachet, virtually nobody supports them.
The following study shows that from 2006-08, Toronto had was one of the most efficient teams in baseball in terms of ratio of wins to dollars spent:
http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2009/03/20062008_payrol.php
Now, having said all that, I think Ricciardi will be fired. The fans have lost confidence in him, and a change in the front office will likely lead to a bit of a boost in terms of excitement around the team. That honeymoon period will be short-lived, though, since I agree with JP – the next GM is probably looking at a long string of fourth-place finishes (at best – the O’s could climb the standings once their youngsters hit their strides, and T-Bay may not lose their best players to higher-paying teams for another couple of years.)
On the one hand, he is viewed as a sabermetrics guy — an INFORMATION guy — on the other I don’t really see much real evidence of that
Yes, and yet (as a Toronto resident I am privy to this) he consistently goes out of his way to belittle sabermetricians as “computer nerds in the basement” types. And this is what is so infuriating about Riccardi: I think he is entirely disingenuous about it – it seems like he thinks he gains street cred by ganging up on the statheads, and thereby disassociating himself from them, when at heart I think he knows they are right.
~
“If we’re going to play in the big man’s division, and we’re not going to spend that money, it’s going to be really hard for us to compete with those teams.”
This is pretty rich coming from a guy who, by most accounts, won the Toronto job in the interview by promising he could deliver results cheaper (hmmm…sounds a bit Moneyballish…).
Interesting strategy: win the job by promising to get results cheaper, and then once *in* the job complain you need Yankee/Red Sox type resources to compete.
And to add to my last (wordy) comment, there are absolutely people who want to see Ricciardi fired. One of the local hacks, the absolutely execrable Richard Griffin seems to have made that his mission. It’s beyond a disdain for the job Ricciardi’s done – it’s quite clear that he has a very strong vendetta against the man.
He’s done a good job in inciting the masses against JP. As an example, he led tons of casual fans in a rousing chorus of “why did JP give Burnett that deal? The guy’s a bum!” followed by “why did JP include an opt-out clause in Burnett’s deal? Now he’s gonna leave!”
I get that you don’t want assume ALL the risk in a contract, which is what opt-out clauses do in the event of injury, but the analysis never got to that point. It was just bipolar “we hate having this guy on our team! And now we hate that he won’t be on our team!” screaming.
In short, JP’s time is up, but he’s been a lot better for this team than people will give him credit for.
And as a parting point, one thing I find odd about the Jays is that they have always underperformed their Pythagorean record. I think they broke even one year under JP, but every other season, they’ve managed to do worse than their run differential would suggest they should. Dunno what to make of this, but it seems unlikely that it would just be chance when it happens EVERY year. If they’d had a little L.A. Angels luck over the years, they’d have had a few 90+ win seasons.
I love, the fact, that there’s something simply called “The Canadian Press.
Hey – it’s just our news wire service.
(as a lawyer) If I ever wanted pub on a case, I knew to hit up the Canadian Press guy to pitch it to, and the next thing I knew I’d be getting my press clippings from all my aunts and uncles in small-town Canada…
btw, I think Paul@30 nails it.
Joe:
I say this as an admirer:
Have you ever thought that maybe it would interesting to write, say, 25% as much about Dayton Moore, your hometown GM, as you do about J. P. Ricciardi?
Damn. Now I have to reply again. Sorry for clogging up the comments section.
McKingford, when has Ricciardi knocked statistical thinking? I’m not saying he hasn’t, I’m just saying I don’t recall him ever doing so and would like to know what he said and when.
The closest I can recall would have been his (admittedly ill-advised) comments about Adam Dunn. I would have respected him more if, instead of saying, “you wouldn’t like it if we signed Adam Dunn. Do you know he doesn’t like baseball?” he’d said, “you wouldn’t like it if we signed Adam Dunn. Do you know he doesn’t often dive for baseballs in the field and he doesn’t bunt and he takes a lot of walks instead of swinging away in RBI situations even if he doesn’t see anything hittable? I say this because a lot of the most vocal Toronto fans are complete meatheads who think hustle and grit are more important than actual talent.”
And, to be clear, I’m not speaking about anyone who’s commented here. I’m just talking about the general mentality you see among a lot of the less educated fans you hear on radio call-in shows and see on comment boards .
I am one of those fans that think JP has done probably a little bit better than average with what he has to work with.
But on the other hand, he either forgot or never cared, that this is a Canadian team, being supported by Canadian butts in the seats. There has never been any recognition from JP that this team might be important to Canadians. He belittles the team and it’s owners, every chance that he gets while talking to ESPN or FOX. Never once since he arrived, has there been any effort to market this team to the rest of the country.
The latest rant from him, is another example of him covering his own butt. He never takes responsibility for anything. Any problems with this team, are always someone else’s fault.
If I owned Rogers, and I read this latest diatribe from him, he wouldn’t have to worry about being fired, he would already be out the door. He could go back to Boston and help them out with their team.
Oh it’s definitely the mouth that does Ricciardi in…He cannot open his yap without the most hysterically dumb shit falling out. I admit that he has a great eye for young pitchers and I really think that some of the arms he has brought are going to pay off for the jays in the near future but this man should not be making deals or talking to the press. He is a backroom baseball man not front office material. For every good move he’s made he’s had at least one Thomas, Ryan, Rios, or Wells contract and two Ecksteins deals to obliterate any edge he had.
There are plenty of die hard Jays fans up here that will patiently wait for their team to win. In fact I think a lot of Jays fans find their underdog status in the east endearing. It represents the Canadian culture so well I think the only thing they will not tolerate is lame excuse making and a roll over philosophy because the big bucks down south bought all the talent. That is total BS and anyone that plays hard regardless of the score or playoff rankings will be loved up here.
I don’t think the Rays had a “9-year plan”. I think they wandered aimlessly for a good long while and then got some new blood that came up with a plan. The Rays did pretty much exactly what the Jays should’ve.
JP is almost certainly correct that as long as the payrolls of the respective teams stay relatively the same, the Jays (or Rays or O’s) won’t run off a string of division titles. But they can be competitive and pick off the odd Division or WC. The Jays, in JP’s time, haven’t come close. And now he says they can’t? Well, even if he’s right, it doesn’t sound like he’s the right man for the job.
The most meaningless stat in baseball is undoubtedly a pitcher’s W/L record.
Second on the list would have to be payroll totals.
It’s an interesting question to ask whether Barry Bonds is a jerk because he was a great baseball player or was he a great baseball player because he was a jerk and to then pose a similar question about Pete Rose, but who said that the two must be causally connected in the first place? Why can’t he be a great baseball player IN SPITE OF being a jerk? The Hall of Fame is loaded with guys who were jerks, but it also has a prett big contingent of nice guys as well, wouldn’t you say? I’m sure I’m overlooking some tremendous personal flaws when I point to guys like Hank Aaron, Jackie Robinson and Stan Musial, bit were those guys great ballplayers because they were nice guys or were they nice guys because they were great ballplayers? Or is it something else entirely?
Scotty #28: It seemed pretty clear that Joe’s point was that the title “greatest football player ever” is open for discussion; “greatest basketball player ever” pretty much isn’t.
More importantly, when I was a kid, I had an orthodontist named Dr. Au. That’s pronounced “ow”.
What frustrates me so much about JP is that he just throws away money. It’s one thing to complain about payroll – but then you go out and waste money releasing Ryan, Thomas, Reed Johnson, Josh Towers and so many others.
He doesn’t understand the difference between past, present and future performance. One great year (Towers, Wells) and you get a huge contract. One bad year – you’re out. It’s like he’s playing fantasy baseball. You can’t do that as a GM.
The Jays teams have been much better than the record shows the past couple of years if you believe in pythag or run differential. Unfortunately, that isn’t good enough, because the teams above them have generally been better in those regards.
What would really help is a more balanced schedule, instead of 19 games against each division rival. Plus, I’d get to see other teams I like more often. It gets boring seeing Baltimore 19 times a year and Cleveland only 6.
Back to JP – it doesn’t help when you keep making low upside signings (Delucci) and stop taking gambles on guys with upside. Who was surprised when Delucci or Shannon Stewart failed miserably? Probably JP, but that’s about it.
The Jays can win. I don’t believe the payroll argument is an issue. If the Jays put out a winning season, people will come. If they can make the playoffs and be competitive, they’ll get people to come, and they can raise payroll then. But you have to put together a strong team first. And I don’t see that happening with JP in charge.
#43: “Interesting strategy: win the job by promising to get results cheaper, and then once *in* the job complain you need Yankee/Red Sox type resources to compete.”
This is actually valid. The situation that prevailed when he was hired, in terms of the level of difference between the Yankees/Red Sox and the rest of baseball, is very different from the current situation.
Look at the Yankee budget vs. the 5th highest budget in MLB, from the late 1990s to the present, and note the inflection point around 2001.
Hmm, URL didn’t publish. The net of the comment above is that into the late 1990s, the spread between the Yanks and the 5th highest MLB payroll wasn’t astronomical. They were consistently high, but not in their own category. From the late 1990s to 2001, there was a steady increase in the differential, but an argument could be made that it was manageable – and JP did.
After 2001, the picture changes.
Try this, too:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/242713-how-to-fix-a-problem-that-few-see/show_full
From the article:
The green line is the Yankees, and the other lines reflect the rest of the league [ranked by spending] at five-team intervals (the No. 5 team, the No. 10 team and so forth). Notice that through 1993, the top 20 or so teams are relatively closely bunched…. Even after the Yankees became the (almost) constant No. 1 team, the pace of salary separation between the charted teams remains fairly constant for eight years…. But then what has happened since [2001] is clearly illustrated. While the spacing of the other intervals remained fairly consistent, the Yankees payroll skyrockets… [and is now a] full 75 percent higher than the No. 5 team in the league.”
The difference between being the Yankees/Red Sox and the 5th highest payroll in baseball is now greater than the difference between the Yanks and the league’s lowest payroll used to be. It goes beyond free agents into scouting, drafting, international signings, and other areas. And it allows a lot of mistakes – which, like other teams, they’ve made – to be replaced and fixed. Vernon Wells is not a problem if you’re the Yankees or Red Sox. He becomes a $20 million 4th outfielder, and someone else is brought in.
Which may explain why in the last 11 years, only *once* has an AL East team other than the Yankees or Red Sox made the playoffs.
So yeah, it is a real problem. And it has gone well beyond the situation JP inherited.
@57 the points made by the article you cite are valid and yet that one time someone other than the yanks or sawx won is very instructive.
For most of their existence, the Rays had awful owners who limited their baseball men terribly and none of those were dynamic enough to find success, despite year after year of getting presumably the best talent available that year.
When they did make a “move” invariably it was a bad one done more for PR than anything else – like bringing in Pinella.
Suddenly the rays got a better owner and then a better approach and that talent allowed them to win. Now IF they stay that low on the payroll totem pole, they may not be able to keep it up as real competition but they seem to understand that as well. They are doing a reasonable job of picking and choosing the best talent to sign long term while getting rid of good talent that can bring in even more (and which they soon might not be able to afford).
That is the way to compete against teams that routinely outspend you (and always will). A lot of good drafting and development, a bit of thinking outside the box (eg going for better defense), a few long term contracts with the talent heart of the team (like Longoria) and some dealing of true talent that you won’t be able to afford but who will bring a good return (like Kazmir).
Perhaps JP’s argument was valid before last year, when it seemed doomed that no one else could compete in the AL East, but now that it has been shown that it can be done his argument seems to be just a self-serving attempt to cover his failures.
Sandy is so correct about J.P’s contempt for the local fans, local media etc. Certainly not all our print and TV media is first rate when it comes to baseball, but we do have some very knowledgeable writers here. J.P. sucks up to FOX, ESPN and NESN at every opportunity while dispensing sarcasm to our market.
It’s true though, J.P. has been so inconsistent with his plan, too many panicky moves, too many FA signings that didn’t pan out, Frank Thomas for starters. BJ Ryan’s contract was also too long a deal for what we got. Now we’re back to where we were five years ago, Jason Frasor as our closer!
As for the Canadian Press (CP), it’s our version of AP. A newswire. Not that we’re oversensitive up here or anything.
[...] article discusses the two sides of JP, is he a “scouts guy” or not, does he embrace [...]
A couple of points:
1. Maybe JP is tired of gettting beat up year after year, and he just can’t take it anymore. How would you like to be held accountable for competing against Jordan and Magic every year, with no hope in sight of those two ever retiring?
2. Maybe it is about time someone besides fans starts talking about the uneven playing field, and how it gives some teams obvious advantages. Yes, those advantages can be over come, but it is rare, and it doesn’t last. Maybe JP is going to be that voice that helps change things (I doubt it, but hey, it could be).
3. I don’t care if Jordan was great because he’s a total jerk. I hate it when total jerks are around, let alone successful. The world would be a better place if there were less jerks.
It’s hilarious to hear all this complaining that poor Toronto is just too “small market” to be able to compete with Boston. The Greater Toronto area has about twice the population of the greater Boston area. They also have all of Canada as a potential media market.
Their ownership has been horrible in taking advantage of that to generate revenue. Boston’s ownership has been fantastic in generating revenue. That’s why the Red Sox have more money to spend than the Blue Jays.
It sure hasn’t always been like that. In the mid-90′s, it was common “knowledge” in Boston that the Red Sox had to tear down dirty little Fenway Park and build a domed stadium in the suburbs or else they would “never be able to compete” with the revenue the Blue Jays were generating from Skydome. “Toronto draws 4 million fans a year! They have way more money to spend. Fenway is too small and cramped and dirty, tear it down or in our small market, we’ll never be able to compete with the big market Blue Jays, boo-hoo-hoo.”
Now that both teams have changed hands and the Red Sox have owners who know what they’re doing and who want to win, this means Toronto is now a “small market.”
Because their owners can’t figure out how to draw 4 million fans a year like they used to, and they don’t know how to generate media income from an entire country. It’s just “impossible” to do it.
As a Red Sox fan, I really hope Ricciardi stays on the job, because it’ll be more proof that the owners there don’t know what they’re doing. Toronto has a lot of potential to generate revenue, and to compete in the AL East, but they’ll never do it running the team the way they’ve done it recently.
Yeah, Tampa Bay can win the division one year ago, but poor little Toronto just “can’t” compete! Comical.
The Yankees outspend the Red Sox by $60 or so million every single year, but the Red Sox have overcome that, to the point where everyone acts like they spend the same amount on players. They don’t, not even close, but once Boston got new owners who were smart and daring and actually tried to win instead of falling back on the conventional “wisdom” and saying “it can’t be done,” they started to win. And now they are raking in tons of profit, more than any previous Red Sox owners ever did.
But no, Toronto’s management is right, they just “can’t compete” with big market teams like NY, Boston and Tampa. Keep thinking that way, please.
Only a man who has spent significant time watching football in Cleveland and Kansas City would leave John Elway off of even an off-hand list of the possible Greatest Football Player Ever.
[...] J.P. Morgan Chase …up there competing, settling old Bscores/B, raging … a fairly clear choice but many Breal/B hockey fans … like J.P. if you got to spend some… [...]
Joe, if Jim Murray came back from the grave, maybe you wouldn’t be my favorite sports writer. But even so, some times I have to disagree with you.
Wayne Gretzky has more than 50% more points than second place all time. And basketball and hockey are perhaps the most comparable sports. The things that matter for both sports are points and wins, and both teams have about the same number of players playing at the same time.
Michael Jordan doesn’t have the record for most points in his career. He fractionally beats out Wilt for highest average points per game for his career. Jordan has 13 NBA records (according to a quick internet browse). Gretzky has 61. Wilt Chamberlain has 63 NBA records and shared several more. To say that Jordan is more dominant than Gretzky or Wilt shows unreasonable bias.
Do I think Jordan is the greatest player of all time, allowing for the improved competition and defenses he faced? I think not. If I was building a team, and I knew I’d be drafting from all the best players of all time, I’d start with Wilt. If I’m drafting by position, at guard, then I probably pick Jordan. But remember, Oscar Robertson averaged a triple double one season, and Jerry West is Mr. Clutch, and Magic Johnson was more fun to watch than any other athlete I’ve ever seen, any sport. And if I’ve got Wilt at center, I don’t mind having Magic tossing him the rock.
I mean, Wilt played before they kept the same defensive statistics they do today. But the most insane blocked shot I ever saw came from Wilt, on (IIRC) Nate Archibald, on a shot from well beyond 20 feet away from the hoop. And there’s this quotation from Wikipedia: However, according to Jack Ramsay, “Harvey (Pollack) said he used to tell one of his statisticians to keep track of Wilt’s blocks in big games… One night, they got up to 25″. Considering that Wilt averaged over 20 rebounds in his career (way more than Jordan’s steals plus blocks plus rebounds plus assists) is there any doubt that Wilt would have had the first 20-20-20 game if they were keeping track, and the most 20-20-20 games, and possibly a season averaging a triple double with blocks instead of assists?
I know, how do you compare a guard to a center? How do you compare players from the 1960s to players from the 1990s, when the average player was much much better. Yes, Wilt got to face Darrell Imhoff (IIRC) when he scored 100 points. But geeze, he still scored 100 points. Nobody else has reached 90. I think 83 is second highest.
So I don’t think Jordan is the best basketball player of all time. I think Jordan is merely the best you saw. I don’t think Jordan compares to Gretzky. Heck, I don’t think Wilt compares to Gretzky. What was Gretzky’s weakness, that sometimes he’d make a good scoring opp for his team and give the puck back if they didn’t cash in? Wilt, except for one magical game when he made 28 of 32, was a terrible free throw shooter at a time when rules REALLY favored the Tilt a Wilt. Miss the front end of a one and one and you don’t get the second attempt; that’s no longer in the rules. So his game was great, but he had a weakness. Gretzky not only never had a weakness, he made hockey look fun even to a guy who didn’t much like hockey.
I wouldn’t begin to know who to pick as the best football player of all time. I admire Butkus, and Jim Brown, and Unitas, and Rice, and Barry Sanders, and Terry Bradshaw, and Joe Montana, and Fran Tarkenton (oh, if only he’d ever been on a GOOD team). And if you ask me why I’ve forgotten Elway or a dozen linemen on both sides of the ball or Ronnie Lott or OJ or a ton of old timers I’ve read about but never saw, I’d have to say: football is so specialized that to pick the best player is impossible. You have to do it by position. Baseball, I give Ruth the nod because he’s got pitching as well as hitting, but maybe it should be Williams, or perhaps even Cobb or Honus Wagner or a pitcher. Or somebody who hasn’t retired yet.
But in roundball, I start with Wilt, not Jordan. And in hockey, nobody comes close to Gretzky. I’d think the author of “The Soul of Baseball” would be able to recognize that Jordan’s pedestal is just you being a fan.
Okay, I started looking at a breakdown of Wilt Chamberlain’s records. And this one, I think, says it all. He has the record for most 50 point games in a single season, with 45. He is also in second place, with 30. No other player has more than 10 50 point games in a season. And every game, every team knew they had to try and stop him.
When Wilt was dominant, it wasn’t even close. When the Lakers won 33 in a row, it was with Wilt at center. And you know what? The Lakers used Wilt as a decoy. The other team had to put two defenders on him whenever possible (zones were illegal back then) and the Lakers had four good shooters getting open looks and the best rebounder in the game on the boards. It wasn’t that Wilt couldn’t still score. It was just that the team was better off with a defensive rebounder running futilely at an open West or Goodrich or McMillan or Hairston, leaving Wilt chances for putbacks, than having Wilt try to force it inside against the double teams and being outnumbered on the glass.
Wilt’s records are so insane from his peak that the mind tends to just ignore them. But we can’t afford that. He really did all those things. He scored 53 points as a rookie in a playoff game, and also pulled down 35 rebounds the same game. He has the most rebounds (career and average). He had 9 triple doubles in a row, the longest consecutive streak ever.
Hell, after being accused of being a selfish player, Chamberlain went out and led the league in assists in 1968. Did Jordan ever lead the league in assists? rebounds? steals? blocked shorts? Wilt had a 20-20-20 game with points, rebounds, and assists. I mean, how insanely good was he? He had five games of 40-40 points and boards. He holds the season record for accuracy, 72.7% (he also holds second place). He once made 35 shots in a row (over more than one game). He averaged more minutes per game than anybody else, ever. One season he AVERAGED more than 48 minutes per game. That required some overtime games. So he did all this and he never took a breather.
And that’s why we forget him. He was insanely good. He was too good to believe. So we latch onto Jordan, who we could believe. But I have no doubt any more. Wilt was the best ever.
Nice writing. BTW, I’m convinced about the Stilt.
I realize this is way late, but I just had to respond to this:
“I don’t know that any other athlete in American sports is so widely viewed as the best ever.”
Ever hear of Tiger Woods? (Don’t mean to be snarky, I know you like him and have written multiple outstanding pieces about him — but, c’mon.)
And anyone who thinks there is a debate about the greatest player in baseball history is really not someone to take seriously. I can accept the Williams/Ruth debate about greatest hitter (maybe). Depending on what weight is given to various measures, results may vary, but let’s say it’s a dead heat.
OK — then add the fact that Ruth won 92 games as a pitcher, and was considered the best left-handed pitcher of his day (at least in the AL). I think that pretty much ends the debate right there.