210-210-210 seasons
Posted: September 24th, 2009 | Filed under: Baseball, Media | 42 Comments »
Crazy day today. Doing Deadspin chat at 1 p.m. Eastern — check in on that. I’ll be on Boston radio twice and on WJBR in Illinois. And I’m having breakfast with good friend Ryan Lefebvre, where I will desperately try once again to convince him that on-base percentage is not just walks and it isn’t just the stats that say Yuni Betancourt is not a good defensive shortstop. Wish me luck.
In the meantime, today’s Zack Stat — here are all the pitchers in baseball history who have had 210-210-210 blackjack season. That would be 210 innings, 210 strikeouts, 210 ERA+.
Pedro Martinez, three times (1997, 1999, 2000)
Walter Johnson, twice (1912 and 1913)
Roger Clemens, 1997
Dwight Gooden, 1985
Bob Gibson, 1968
Pete Alexander, 1915
And, of course, Zack Greinke right now. A couple Brilliant Readers asked if I think Zack will continue to put up years like this in the future. Well, this year is historic — almost unrepeatable, really. But he’s in the stratosphere now. Assuming health, he will be a dominant pitcher for years.
Loading ...
Turns out Zack Greinke is really good at baseball.
You know, given a choice between .350 OBP with 60 RBI, and a .350 OBP with 100 RBI, I will take the latter… that seems to be the “logic” that leads some people to think OBP is less important than RBI.
Also, Maybe we should replace “Innings” with “Outs”. As in, if you are just tuning in, the Royals trail 6-2 with 19 outs (or 8 outs remaining), rather than the “Bottom of the 7th”… Maybe Ryan can work that into the next broadcast!
Joe
Ask ryan why the royals are celabrating 40 years of royals baseball in their 41st year of existance. I’ve wanted to know this all year. Please help. Anyone?
aaaaaaaaaaaannnnnndddd, what’s even crazier, if you look at 210-210-210-Z players (those in the exclusive 210-210-210 club who ALSO have a name beginning with the letter Z), Greinke is the ONLY ONE.
CRAZY!
@4- Actually, Pedro’s name in Spanish had a silent Z in front of it, but we always drop it because it doesn’t make sense to us. His name is actually Zpedro Martinez.
Ok, no. I made that up. Zach’s the only one.
But if you look at the 210-210-210-G players, he’s only the 3rd.
What does Greinke have to do to get his ERA under 1.00?
Please talk to Ryan about OBP and UZR. Him and Frank are getting annoying ripping on it.
Just a thought…since there is now ESPNBoston.com, then what is ESPN.com going to talk about?
ted: An ERA under 1.00 is *obviously* unrealistic.
The better question is: how many hits in his remaining projected at bats does Joe Mauer need for Greinke to finish with an ERA under 2.00?
At the risk of making myself look like a fool (not like it’s the first time ever for that)… could somebody explain to me how somebody I’ve known my whole life as Grover Cleveland Alexander is now known as Pete Alexander?
How did this posthumous name change happen? And why didn’t I received the memo?
*
As for the actual stat itself… while it’s truly impressive (historic may be a better word), it’s not going to mean a thing to people who shun modern stats, because ERA+, to them, is just voodoo. To them, Grienke isn’t leading the league in wins so therefore he can’t be the best pitcher in the league. I wish stats like ERA+ were more universally accepted, but alas…
To go with Drewfuss’ logic….
You know, given a choice between .350 OBP with 100 RBI, and a .400 OBP with 100 RBI, I will take the latter… that seems to be the “logic” that leads some people to think OBP is MORE important than RBI.
You can do this with any stat. In any situation though, you would want to have a player that gets on base more.
For the “wins” are the most important stat crowd, here’s a thought experiment.
Let’s take an imaginary pitcher, call him Grack Zeinke, who plays for an imaginary team, say the Missouri City Boils. Zeinke is really good, but the Boils are a horrible offensive and defensive team.
Zeinke starts 34 games. In each game he strikes out every batter he faces except one. That one batter manages to hit the ball, which the Boils’ defense (using the term loosely) turns into a 4-base error, scoring a run. Meanwhile the Boils provide no run support. Literally. And Zeinke loses 1-0 every outing while pitching a complete game. His season stats (assuming 17 home and 17 away starts) are:
272 IP, 0 H, 0 W, 816 K*, 0.00 ERA, 0-34 W-L. Would you vote from him for the Cy Young Award?
If “no”, there is no hope. If “yes”, where between that record and Zack Grienke’s record is the line where win totals matter and all the other information about his ability does not ?
*Assuming I didn’t screw up the arithmetic. If you want, you could take away the ball put into play and have Zeinke strike out an additional batter each game who reaches base and scores when the catcher drops the third strike and then throws the ball into right field, etc. That would up Zeinke’s K total to a nice 850.
So, I guess this pitcher in question may become the first MLB hurler to accomplish said stats and have initials Z.G.?
Simply amazing….
I was curious to see the effect on this list of getting to 220-220-220, which Zack will achieve if he pitches at least 10-1/3 additional innings without giving up any more earned runs, assuming that the league ERA does not go down. That would remove all three Pedro seasons–219 ERA+ in 1997, 213-1/3 IP in 1999, 217 IP in 2000–but none of the others.
The monotonous 222-222-222, which would require a minimum of 12-2/3 scoreless innings to finish out the season, also eliminates the Rocket (221 ERA+). Of course, Big Train needed 369 and 346 IP to get 303 and 242 SO, while Grover took 376-1/3 IP to reach 241 SO. That would leave the three G’s pretty much in a class by themselves!
My question is, where does Greinke’s service clock stand. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to see him go to Boston as a FA (for purely selfish reasons, of course), but somehow it would seem to be a crime to see him in anything other than a Royals uniform.
Then again, from his point of view, it’s likely a crime that he’s seen in nothing BUT a Royals uniform… but I digress.
@3&4&13
Zack’s first name is actually Donald. So the list is still zero for those.
Joe, just read your sweet Ernie Harwell piece for SI. You’re as sensitive as you are brilliant and funny. SI finally has someone I love to read again. Thank You
Kevin@11 – exactly. But as obvious as it seems, Joe Morgan (et al) are always coming up with some tortured example that doesn’t make any sense – like the other night discussing whether you’d rather have Rickey Henderson batting lead-off or some horribly slow guy with a higher OBP (as his only skill). That’s why I wish people would pay more attention how precious those 27 outs are, and speak in terms of outs instead of “not outs”. Yuniesky Betancourt (or Miguel Olivo, John Buck, Jose Guillen, Mike Jacobs) makes too many outs.
This has been one of the best baseball seasons ever.. from Greinke to unassisted triple plays to a perfect game & a near perfecto (Sanchez) to Mauer’s hitting to the Yankees & Red Sox playing 14 scoreless innings to …a classic throwback Dodgers/Yankees World Series?
10 / john in philly:
Here’s what I think happened with Alexander.
His given name is Grover Cleveland Alexander. Everybody back then got a nickname, especially anyone with a name like Grover Cleveland. I think in the old oral histories, you see “Ol/Old Pete” a lot.
I’ll bet if you go back to the pre-internet editions of the BB encyclopedia and Total Baseball, you find him listed primarily as “Grover Cleveland.” Now, you go to bb-ref, and in all the rankings, etc., he’s “Pete.” Not that the folks who look stats up on bb-ref are ignorant of their history (far from it), but they might be less inclined to use Al Bridwell as their primary resource.
(Incidentally, a lot of random people seem to have been nicknamed “Pete.” The other one that makes me scratch my head is General James Longstreet. Wikipedia has an explanation for it, but still…)
Hi Joe,
I appreciate all the radio appearance updates, but when are you going on a real -live book tour? And when might you be headed to NYC so I can hand you a Snuggie and a copy of “The Machine” to autograph?
Ryan and Frank are getting annoying with the RBI v. OBP talk. I think the disconnect in logic comes from their failure to appreciate that–excepting sacrafices–an RBI also results in getting on base.
They also incorrectly presume that a walk is a primary skill, not a secondary effect, and the batter is actually seeking to walk. All great hitters typically walk a lot, not because they try to, but because they tend to not swing at pitches that are harder to hit. Moreover, because they are proficient at making solid contact with pitches in the strike zone, pitchers are more careful, and tend to walk them more. When they do get a pitch to hit, they hit it hard, and both get on base and drive in the base runner.
By suggesting that there is some inverse relationship between walks and RBI (a false premise), and then eshewing the walk, the proponents of the argument are, in effect, arguing that middle-of-the-line-up hitters ought to swing at more pitches out of the strike zone in an attempt to drive in runs. This, consequently, will result in both more outs and fewer RBI.
“My question is, where does Greinke’s service clock stand.”
He signed a 4 year contract earlier this year. For pretty cheap, too. If you want him in a BoSox uniform, you’ll have to give up some of your precious prospects.
If I were Dayton, I would accept no less than Bucholz, Masterson, Anderson, the 2007 WS Title, and a sixer of Sam Adams.
Joe, you missed something. I fixed it.
Pedro Martinez, three times (1997, 1999, 2000)
Walter Johnson, twice (1912 and 1913)
Roger Clemens, 1997*******************************************************************************************************************************
Dwight Gooden, 1985
Bob Gibson, 1968
Pete Alexander, 1915
Joe, I know he’s your friend but I watched Royals-Red Sox the last 3 nites on FSN and Lefebvre’s awful…. repeats the obvious, tries (but fails) to be funny, nothing interesting about him.
all Frank White does is spout cliches and giggle.
easily one of the worst broadcast teams in MLB.
@ Jeff #20: Thanks for the explanation.
I’ve never had the chance to enjoy the Royals’ radio broadcasters, but I would still wager that the Twins duo [John Gordon and Dan Gladden] is among the worst. On the TV side, Bert Blyleven’s act has gotten old. None of these guys add anything to the listening or viewing experience and in fact make it painful by frequently going off on wierd tangents and failing to describe what’s happening on the field. The Twins could use some new announcing teams to go with their new stadium.
(21) AK:
Joe’s doing the Varsity Letters reading for GELF magazine on October 1. The space is in DUMBO, I think. Anyway, just Google Gelf magazine; you can find it.
Unfortunately, I have unmissable concert tix that night. Lousy world.
I too have never heard the Royal’s broadcast team, but if they are worse than the Twins, that’s gotta hurt, because the Twins’ announcers are pretty much unlistenable (which makes using the radio hard).
the 210 ERA+ is the tough one there
sure, there have only been 10 210-210-210 seasons, but there have only been 28 seasons of 210 ERA+ or better
and with the others, Clemens in 1990 missed the big three because he only had 209 strikeouts that year and I’m sure others missed by similarly tiny numbers
the ERA+ alone proves how historic Greinke’s season is
If Frank White had taken more walks during his own career, he might be in the Hall of Fame. His only real weakness as a player was plate discipline.
Interesting tidbit, which I guess should be shared here since others have mentioned tonight’s Sox/Royals game:
The Sox batted around against Hochevar in the fifth. Lowell grounded out, and then Boston went:
single single triple single single walk single single
and then Lowell went GDP, inning over.
I don’t have a b-r play index subscription, but I do wonder, how many times has one guy made all three outs in an inning?
@28 – Bruce at Giants Stadium?
I’m still amazed at so called “sports people” who still say, “Yeah Grienke getting closer to winning the Cy Young. He still has that 15-8 record which isn’t great”
Maybe Grienke’s awesome season will strike a serious blow to W-L record having as much relevance among baseball fans and broadcasters.
Matt @9:
Yeah, sorry. I meant, what does Greinke have to do to finish with an ERA under 2?
I just bought The Machine with a coupon and ended up paying $19.75. I felt like a dork pointing out that was the year of the team the book was about but I just had to tell someone.
I know I have seen it before, but just for fun I looked up Greinke’s ERA in wins, losses and no decisions, then compared each to Sabathia. My favorite: Greinke’s ERA in no decisions is almost identical to Sabathia’s ERA in wins (1.96 compared to 1.93, respectively).
Anyway:
Greinke ERA in wins: 0.98.
Sabathia ERA in wins: 1.93.
Greinke ERA in losses: 4.66.
Sabathia ERA in losses: 7.29.
Greinke ERA in no decisions: 1.96.
Sabathia ERA in no decisions: 3.75.
Other fun facts:
Greinke has one win in games when he allows three earned runs or more; Sabathia has six.
Greinke has four losses when allowing three earned runs or fewer; Sabathia has none.
Greinke has six no decisions when pitching at least six innings and giving up no more than two earned runs; Sabathia has two (plus one no decision when he pitched 5.2 innings and allowed only one earned run).
Greinke has allowed four earned runs or more in four games, they were all losses. Sabathia has allowed four earned runs or more 10 times, earning himself one win, two no decisions and seven losses.
This I think bears repeating, because there seems to be the sense among some baseball fans that Greinke essentially put together two unbelievable hot stretches to bookend an otherwise so-so season:
In 31 starts Greinke surrendered more than three earned runs only four times. That is consistently excellent pitching.
yeah Ted, Mellinger added it all up and showed that Zack’s ERA in his WORST games are BETTER than Sabathia’s overall
Greinke’s ERA in his losses and no-decisions is 3.23. CC Sabathia’s overall ERA is 3.31
Someone PLEASE give Zack the award already!
@ Mikey (33):
No, not Bruce (though he’s costing me a player in my softball game Wednesday!).
New Model Army at the Mercury Lounge.
[...] Posnanski talks about Zack Greinke’s amazing season. It’ll be blasphemy if Zack doesn’t win the Cy Young. I just don’t see how he [...]
tim carver is an idiot. saying that wins is where the cy young should be judged… and not stats. the fact is that the cy young is a pitching award for a players personal acheivment. he wants CC to win because he is a yankee fan for sure. and the award he is describing is an MVP. if the royals could score one or two behind a couple of zacks 0-1 losses or his no decisions, they can’t (cause they dont have an offense) he could possibly have a 20 win season… maybe more. he has pitched that incredibly. and SHOULD win the cy young. we’ll see if the voters feel the same i guess.