Mauer Power 8.15
Posted: August 15th, 2009 | Filed under: Baseball | 72 Comments »
Joe Mauer with a 3-for-3 day against Cleveland and the batting average is now .375. He has to go 81 for 181 the rest of the way to hit .400.
I don’t know how long I’m going to keep this Mauer update going … but this might become a daily thing for the rest of the season for one reason and one reason alone: It is beginning to appear that Mauer, having perhaps the most remarkable season in the history of the world, might get screwed out of the MVP Award. And if that happens … well we can’t let it happen. We just can’t let it happen.
My e-migo Rob Neyer has already hit upon this but the New York Times’ Tyler Kepner — a delightful fellow and fine baseball writer — tweeted last night: “By the way, this is probably obvious by now, but Teixeira’s the AL MVP. No question, as Joe Torre would say.”
Uh … OK, look. I love New York. I really do. It’s one of my three favorite cities in the world. And I love how, because there’s such an overpowering energy in New York, everything that happens there takes on this enormous feel. The tabloids splash huge headlines. The news tickers across giant video boards in Times Square and can be overheard in coffee shops and five star hotels and taxi cabs. I get it and love it. So when Mark Teixeira hits what turns out to be a game-deciding home run against Seattle in what anyone else would consider a fairly meaningless August game, it can become instant legend in New York. And people in New York will tweet “Probably obvious by now, but Teixeira’s the AL MVP.”
Never mind that there is not a single thing that Mark Teixeira has done as well as Joe Mauer this year. Not one thing. Never mind that Mauer’s batting average is 87 points higher, his on-base percentage is 59 points higher, his slugging percentage is 57 points higher, his OPS+ is 40 points higher and he’s a freaking CATCHER, and a good one, while Teixera’s a first baseman*.
*I was about to say, “and a good one” because Teixeira was an excellent defensive first baseman in 2008 by all the numbers. But did you know that he has a minus-UZR this year, and his Dewan plus/minus is way down?
Look, could you make a case for Mark Teixeira over Joe Mauer? Well, you could make a case for anything. You could say that Mauer missed the first month of the season — so Teixeira has about 120 more plate appearances. You could say that the Yankees are going to the playoffs and the Twins are not unless they make a late season rush that looks more and more unlikely. But it sure seems to me that we need to start jabbing holes in this Teixeira MVP thing before it becomes a fait accompli.
Joe Mauer is having a much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much better season than Mark Teixeira. I’m not sure I put enough muches in there. Mauer is on pace to win his THIRD batting title as a catcher — and no other American League catcher has ever won even one. He leads the league in on-base percentage AND slugging percentage, the two most important stats going, and the only catcher to ever do that in baseball history was … oh, wait, nobody. He throws out base runners and hits .395 with runners in scoring position (hits .457 with runners in scoring position and two outs) and even runs the bases well.
Obviously, we have to see how the last month and a half goes — this thing could certain shift. But up to this point, I find it almost impossible to believe that a sensible baseball person could say Mark Teixeira has been as valuable a baseball player as Joe Mauer.
Mauer to date
344 at-bats
129 hits
Batting average: .375 average.
What he’s got to do the rest of the way
181 at-bats
81 hits
Batting average: .448
Final numbers
525 at-bats
210 hits
Batting average: .400
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should anyone make the argument that mauer was injured to start the year, the on hand retort should be that teixeira was taking his annual april vacation during the beginning of the season.
though i would caution against using such a small sample size of UZR; even if teixeira was having a phenomenal defensive year (he very well might be), mauer is still the clear cut choice.
If Mauer keeps up what he’s done so far and doesn’t win the MVP, I will lose all interest in who wins baseball MVP awards. The award would become a joke.
There has been a pretty convincing trend among MVP voters recently that the “most valuable” part of the equation means that you have to get your team to the playoffs. So it’s going to take something extra-ordinary to get Joe Mauer the MVP, like hitting .400. Most voters aren’t going to pay attention to his slash stats or his ridiculous OPS+ (181).
On the other hand, there is a very famous precedent. In 1941, Ted Williams hit .406/.553/.735, leading the league by enormous amounts in each category. But he finished second in the MVP, just as his team finished second in the American League by 17 games (oh, and because of some guy named Joe and a little streak he had).
What’s even more ridiculous to me about considering Teixeira a lock for MVP over Mauer is that there are many AL players who are much more deserving of being in the conversation than Teix, including his own teammate.
Top AL players in value (via FanGraphs):
1. Mauer $25.8 MM
2. Zobrist $24.2 MM
3. Longoria $23.9 MM
4. Jeter $21.1 MM
5. Scutaro $20.5 MM
…
8. Teixeira $17.9 MM
Living in NYC, I can definitely vouch that everything tends to get blown out of proportion, especially where the Yankees are concerned. See: every Yankees prospect.
Considering that Justin Morneau won the 2006 MVP despite being EIGHTH in OPS and EIGHTH in runs created, I find it strange that anyone could ever take the award seriously again.
Well, it’s way too early for me to start getting upset about how they’re going to screw up the MVP award again. But this did it. Thanks, Joe.
Seriously, great work. We need to spread the word…barring a huge collapse or another injury, anybody but Mauer winning the MVP would make the whole process a joke completely, forever, Morneau was an awful selection in 2006, Tangent (Mauer had a strong case that year too, just as he did in 2008), but there was nobody having the kind of year Mauer is now for him to steal it from.
Wow, what’s it take to be commenter of the day around here? LOL
Whereas I agree Mauer should be waaayyy ahead of Texiera in people’s MVP thoughts right now, I still don’t see how Mauer’s going to manage .400. Like I said yesterday — Williams in ‘57 had a mere 61 PA slump and that kept him from batting .400. Mauer’s had a slump almost twice as long, 107 PA’s.
Although, he might hit .391 …that I wouldn’ put out of the question.
Don’t get me wrong, I would LOVE to see Mauer do it THIS year…. a magical year in baseball already… everything from perfecto to weird first’s to Victorino getting thrown out of a game from CF….I think this has been the most interesting season since I’ve been into baseball (since ‘82)
So take a look at the AL OPS+ rankings right now. #1 is Mauer by a huge margin, at 186. #2 is Morneau (153). Okay, he’s a great hitter as well.
#3 kind of shocked me, though. It’s a tie between Youkilis and…….(I’m sure you already know this) Jason freaking Kubel! Both at (149). Now, I’m not doubting these Minnesota hitters, or Gardy’s touch. But I have to ask just how one sub-500 team can have 3 such hitters at the top of the league.
Do you think it is possible that Twins players are getting a lift from the park adjustment factor, while other guys (Yanks, Sox) are being penalized. I don’t know how many of Teixeira’s homeruns were Yankee Stadium specials, but maybe not very many at all, in which case playing there would actually him for park adjustment factor.
Is it possible that the Metrodome is difficult on visiting players especially, but easy to play for guys who are used to it (offense and defensively)? I think the move to a more traditional Target Field next year could be a neat experiment.
The thing that everyone seems to forget about the comparison between Mauer and Tex is that while Tex has for the most part put up fine numbers, he plays first base. while he does play great defense, most first basemen in the ML are EXPECTED to put up big power numbers. Mauer plays a premium defensive position, and rarely do catchers ever come close to those offensive numbers. I havent looked at any numbers, but if Mauer can keep it up he may be looking at one of the top five or so offensive seasons for an AL catcher.
I think the only thing going for Teixeira now is that he has the most home runs on the team with the best record in baseball. You’d think we’ve become suspect of home run totals by now…but…evidently not.
Although if Joe Mauer keeps it up, he may end up being one of the all-time greats, mostly because of the position he plays.
Well, you all filled in the performance analysis, so I’ll tack this on – I’ve got to imagine MVP is based on more than balancing the percentages. Joe is just… a cooler guy!
Tex isn’t even the clear-cut winner of the category “most valuable first baseman on a playoff-contending team,” as Youk edges him out in a lot of key categories! But neither are doing what Mauer is – this should be the easiest MVP voting ever in both leagues…
@8
The Metrodome is still a pretty neutral park.
The reason the Twins are Sub-.500 is a horrible (or at least underperforming) pitching staff. Couple that with an unlucky record (compared to Pythag) and you’ve got your answer.
AGNP
I’m a big Twins’ fan (and a big Mauer fan, of course), but he has to be penalized somewhat for not being on the field at all for a month (22 games) of the season, right? (Note: I’m not comparing him to Teixeira or anyone else for their April performance, just talking in general here). Last year, I felt Quentin would’ve won the MVP award if he had missed his month in May instead of September, but he basically was an afterthought when the voting was done (not saying it’s right, just saying…). Mauer’s interesting because his numbers are so ridiculous, they might trump missing those games, but I think part of being an MVP is being out there pretty much every day and giving something to your team. Obviously, Mauer didn’t do that. The Twins went 11-11 in April, and it kind of set the tone for their mediocre season.
Joe,
I think you’re over estimating Mauer’s remaining at bats. He’s on a pace for 518 AB, which means he needs to go 78 for 174 the rest of the way. Agree 100% on the MVP.
Yeah, good luck Joe with trying to swing the Tex supporters; even the Twins’ own media personnel will tell you that Morneau has been the MVP of the Twins this season. It’s a losing battle.
As far as being penalized for missing a month – hey, he has enough PA to qualify for a batting title, that’s good enough for me.
I’m in the same boat as Bill (#6). I’m now preemptively irritated about something that hasn’t even happened yet.
I spent over a decade of my life playing baseball, all but a handful of games at catcher. My body broke down before I finished high school. What Joe Mauer is doing is absurd–like he just walked out of a cornfield.
I think Mauer should be the obvious choice for MVP, even if the season ended today.
And I’m the biggest Teixera fan in the world (since he signed with the Yankees and not Boston anyway).
Ben,
No, it’s not really possible that Minnesota’s hitters could be getting a lift from the park adjustment factors. Mauer, Morneau and Kubel (vs. righties) really have been that good. Just look at the other six spots in the lineup, and the pitching, if you want to know how one sub-.500 team could have three hitters like that…
I’m a big Twins’ fan (and a big Mauer fan, of course), but he has to be penalized somewhat for not being on the field at all for a month (22 games) of the season, right?
Well, runs created is a counting stat that fairly takes that into account. By that measure, Teixeira is at 99 RC and Mauer is at 97 – almost a dead heat. Factor in the defensive position of each player, as well as Mauer’s much more advanced rate of production and it isn’t close to close.
Its really sad that people are saying they would stop paying attention to the MVP awards. I can’t blame them at all, but they are such an important piece in the history of baseball
Look, let me preface this with “I have no problem with anyone picking Mauer or even thinking he’s the clear choice, and if I had a vote I might vote for him too”.
That said, I have a big problem with this attitude of “Mauer’s the clear winner and you’re dumb if you think otherwise”. I’m sorry, whether you like it or not, Mauer missed the entire month of April. You guys want to pretend that never happened and just ignore it because of his plate appearances, but it did happen. Maybe the Twins would be in first or above .500 if he had played in April. Also, while it matters less to me, many very sensible and intelligent baseball people feel that the MVP should come from a playoff team, or at least one that was very close. The Twins aren’t even above .500.
Also, it’s the Most Valuable Player award. People can petition Bud Selig to change it to the OPS+ award, but as of now, that’s not what it is. Close and late, for example, Mauer has been solid, but not amazing. Teixeira’s OPS is quite a bit higher in those situations, for example…something that straight up looking at slash stats or OPS+ doesn’t tell you, but makes a player more valuable to their team, which is the actual thing this award is supposed to be for.
And please, can we not get so dramatic about it? You all know that even if Teixeira wins, we’ll all be hear discussing the MVP award next season too. There have been plenty of bad choices for that and Cy Young over the years, and you’re all still here discussing it.
Again, if you think Mauer should win it, awesome. I might think that too (I want to wait til the end of the season to really judge, for all we know Mauer gets hurt or suddenly collapses while Teixeira or someone else tears up the league the rest of the way). But this whole “Teixeira sucks, if you don’t pick Mauer you’re stupid”attitude (moreso from the comments, not from Joe) bothers me.
Also, question about the defense. My understanding is UZR is a poor indicator for first baseman, because it doesn’t take into account throws from other fielders to the player, which is a huge part of the first baseman’s job. Is that true or did I hear wrong? Because while I am a big stats person, I have a hard time with any defensive stats that claim Teixeira is closer to Giambi in defensive ability than to a gold glover. I’ve been watching Teixeira save poor throws and still get the out from Jeter, A-Rod, and Cody Ransom all season.
ahhh #22… I have to get dramatic about it. My life needs more excitement.
Well, BP has Mauer 4th in runs created, and Texeira first. So I can agree it’s not so clear cut. I’d pick Morneau myself, but what do I know.
Perhaps, maybe, Mauer will catch up from his month off – and I do agree that counts. You have to play to be valuable.
I personally think the “MVP should be from a playoff team” argument is ridiculous, that makes it a team award, “best player on a team that makes the playoffs”. That’s just me.
Mauer is a nut – having a hell of a season. I do hope he catches up in the counting stats, because he is hitting absurdly well. To be talking about .400 on August 15 (though pretty doubtful) is extraordinary.
Kyle, interesting you point out how Teixeira is better in “Late and Close” situations and cite that as a reason he is more valuable than Mauer.
For the record, Teixeira has a .995 OPS while Mauer has an .872 OPS
But for fairness sake, Mauer has a superior OPS in 2 outs, RISP, Tie Games, Within 1 run, Within 2 run, and within 3 run situations. In fact, Late and Close is the only category out of the 8 “Clutch Stats” on baseball-reference that Teixeira leads Mauer in.
It is a clear cut choice. Even if Teixeira is having a GG calibre season at 1B, it really is irrelevant. Mauer is a GG catcher. A catcher. Teix plays 1B.
And despite having played in 23 fewer games than Teix, he still has only scored 3 fewer runs and 14 fewer RBI’s, while at the same time making far fewer outs.
And the theme I got from this thread and the posters was not Mauer rulez Teix sucks, it’s a genuine appreciation for one of the greatest baseball seasons a player has ever delivered. And that season is being delivered by Joe Mauer.
If you really mean that you “can’t let it happen”, don’t just post it on a blog where 80% of the readers would have already come to the same conclusion. Go tell it on SI, Joe. You’ve earned a mouthpiece to sports fans the world over. Use it.
“Considering that Justin Morneau won the 2006 MVP despite being EIGHTH in OPS and EIGHTH in runs created, I find it strange that anyone could ever take the award seriously again.”
Funny that you mention nothing about Justin’s AL ranks in HRs, RBIs, batting average, etc. from that 2006 season . . . who would you have liked to see rewarded?
I think Tex fans need to be reminded of the fact that Justin Morneau has better batting average, only 2 fewer HRs, and leads the AL in RBIs right now.
I don’t understand the Mauer vs. Tex talk. Heck, Morneau is having a better season than Tex.
Mauer is HANDS DOWN the MVP at this point in the season, but will he win it is another question . . .
Mauer is 2 for 2 today, and is now hitting .379
The thing about Mauer, Morneau, and Kubel having great offensive seasons and, yet, the Twins are a sub-.500 team doesn’t just have to do with their underperforming pitching (and their weak defense outside of three and a half players). Two of those three guys are a first baseman and a DH. Two of almost every AL team’s best hitters are their first baseman and DH (unless you have Mike Jacobs). Other teams are able to get a majority of the production that Morneau and Kubel provide out of their guys at those positions, and also get a lot more out of positions like 2B, SS, 3B, and LF than the Twins do.
Really, I think this is another good argument in favor of Mauer for MVP. Roughly, Morneau = Teixeira = Youkilis = Cabrera. No other catcher equals Joe Mauer.
How anyone–let alone a writer who should know better–can say that it is “obvious” that ANYONE outside of a historic season is the MVP with 6 weeks to go is irresponsibly stupid.
And I think it is far from obvious that Texiera is even having the best season by an AL first baseman. Morneau, Cabrera, and Youkilis–as noted–are all doing about as well. Morneau is even ahead in such traditionally beloved stats as RBI and runs. One hot streak of slump by any of these guys would make a big difference.
What is obvious is that Kepner is either suffering from homer-itis or has decided to go Palin on us and quit to better do his job.
Again, I don’t want to bash Joe Mauer by any stretch, but I feel his defense is a bit overrated (still great, but a bit overrated). But on top of that, doesn’t he get some of the blame for the Twins’ rotation being so inconsistent and subpar this year? If the Twins had a top-10 ERA, I guarantee we’d be bringing that up and lauding him for it. But the Twins are in the bottom 10 in ERA and no one’s bringing it up. Just something to think about…
If you need a knock on Mauer, it’s that in addition to the missed time, he’s been at DH 19 times this season. It looks like he’ll end up playing ~135 games this year, but only catching in ~105 of them.
Still, he’s the clear MVP choice at this point.
Mauer has been the MVP two of the last three years, but he did not hit for enough power or rack up enough RBI when the Twins were contenders.
We all know that.
Mauer continues to be the MVP this year, but even though he is now hitting — as requested by his simple-minded detractors — the Twins are no longer contenders, and the highest we can expect him to finish in the voting is 3rd, probably behind the highest RBI guys from two contending teams.
We all know this.
The MVP balloting won’t become a joke, it is a joke; it is an annual farce. But it is fun to argue about, which is why I hope Joe and Neyer keep writing collumns about how magnificent Joe Mauer really is.
Matt L @31
Joe might not be throwing out as many runners as he used to (I am guessing, not having looked), but I think his defense is underrated. He blocks balls quite well, and his range when getting under popups is also quite good.
As for the team ERA, I think you are off base. There probably is no way to determine this (maybe look at pitchFx data for the games Mauer catches), but he is considered a good handler of the club, and he is lauded for his ability to call a good game and keep pitchers calm.
How do you quantify that? I don’t really know, but using ERA seems like a poor metric. If Joe calls for a perfect pitch on the perfect count, but the ball ends up flat and down the middle, that isn’t his fault.
Again, don’t know how to quantify this, but a lot of people this year have commented that the Twins staff isn’t hitting the inside corner well (leaving the ball over the plate), or that the movement on their pitches is not consistent, etc. That can’t be laid at Joe’s feet.
3-5.
So far, 6-8 since Joe set the numbers out.
I’m sorry, Mr. Posnanski, it’s time for you to take your antibias pill. Texeira has more homers, more RBI, and more runs than Mauer. It’s not that close. Plus Mauer has got three of the top four OPS+ guys in his lineup either protecting him or getting on base for him. So you’re cherry picking your stats when you state that Mauer has done nothing better than Texeira.
Still unconvinced? Here are two legitimate arguments. I’m not saying I agree with them, but they’re legitimately raised points. Argument one (as frequently mentioned above): Mauer has missed a lot of playing time. Note that Mike Piazza, in a season comparable to Mauer’s, with more ABs and PAs than Mauer will get, still got screwed out of an MVP because Colorado had not started soaking its baseballs yet. Legitimate argument two: how valuable can Mauer be if his team is below .500 (especially with 3 of the top 4 OPS guys in the lineup)?
Of the playoff teams right now, the best OPS+ is Kevin Youkilis. Comparing him to Texeira, they both play the same position, and supposedly play it well. Youk has a higher batting average (.311 to .288), OBP (.424 to .385), is a smidge behind in SP (.565 to .564), trails in homers (30 to 20) and RBI (86 to 66). I think Youkilis is having a much better year. But they both play for playoff teams on the East Coast. I mean, where is SI headquartered? East Coast (specifically New York).
Would I vote for Mauer, had I a vote. Yes, I would. But I would have reservations, because picking a loser when there is a deserving winner strikes me as changing the name of the award from Most Valuable Player to Most Outstanding Player. I’d have no objects to that, either, but it hasn’t been done yet.
Finally, I have been told that you have some familiarity with newspaper writing. I’ve also heard that columns that further local sentiment and jingoism tend to be more positively met than bland discussions of mildly esoteric numbers. I’m sure the NYT guy is just drumming support with NYT readers, who because of the dismal performance of the Metropolitans are indeed rooting for the Yankees. More support = more sales = postponing involuntary retirement. It is a sad fact of baseball (more than any other sport) that MVPs and HOFers come from New York teams and from teams that beat New York teams, because SI is based in NYC. So? You are now a non-coaster on the inside at SI. It is time to preach. Use your bully pulpit!
But remember, you are still backing a guy who misses a lot of games who is playing for a below .500 team when the Yankees have the best record in baseball. This might not be the right fight to pick.
@22 – Good points. I agree that the choice is not so clear cut. If I had a vote, I might vote for Mauer too, but I don’t think it’s an obvious call.
In MVP voting I think you have to upgrade counting stats and downgrade rate stats because we should be judging on what was actually contributed to a team’s 162 games. Right now Tex leads on most major counting stats, and might still lead in six weeks.
#32, Nick, also raises a good point. By the time the season is over it’s possible that Tex will have played over 400 more innings of defense than Mauer. That has to be worth something.
Not knocking Mauer in any way. Just think the tone of some of these comments is a little strident. The MVP race is still an open question, IMO.
Joe,
I don’t want this to come out wrong, but —
Minus AZR? Dewan Ratings? Come on. Isn’t this taking the whole statistics thing a bit too far?
At age 53 I remember when the only stats considered were homers, RBIs, and batting average. Why? Because they were on the back of my baseball cards.
And that’s pretty much the way I still look at things. (OK, maybe OPS is a valid stat.) But, really, who has the time or the inclination to delve into such minutae? I sure don’t and I would guess most people are in the same boat as me.
I’m reminded of the time when Dick Allen applied for a hitting coach position. He was asked to fill out all sorts of forms and provide all kinds of information. His response? Hey, look at the back of my baseball card!
So, to me the argument is simple: Mauer’s much higher BA and decent HR and RBI numbers should trump Texiera’s decent BA and higher HR and RBI numbers.
Paul
BTW, Kepner posted a response (sort of) to this and Mr. Neyer’s on his NYT blog. It’s gracious but awfully weak.
Richard Aronson- Those just aren’t “legitimate arguments,” at all, and neither are there any legitimate arguments against Mauer (Poz even directly addressed and demolished one of the ones you try to call him out on). Mike Piazza did, in fact, get screwed out of the MVP award, but didn’t your mom ever tell you that two wrongs don’t make a right? And Mauer is exactly as valuable on the Twins as he would be on a 115-win or 115-loss team. How does the fact that 2/3 of his team’s lineup and most of the pitching are terrible make Mauer himself a “loser”? And there’s nothing about the definition of “valuable” that supports your view of the award over anyone else’s.
I totally agree that we should be looking at counting stats, rather than rate stats, when trying to determine the MVP award. But can we just stop looking at HR, RBI, and runs? Let’s just stop it altogether. If you’re reading Posnanski, you probably know why they’re so inadequate.
For batting, maybe use FanGraphs’ batting runs above average statistic (basically park-adjusted wOBA). It’s very similar to OPS+ (though it is a counting stat) in that it is park and league adjusted, but is ultimately more sophisticated and accurate than OPS+.
If you want to get down to who has provided the most offensive production in high-leverage situations, use WPA (also on FanGraphs).
Consider defense (combining Dewan’s +/- and UZR, as Joe does, is probably the best idea). Consider the positions of the players.
I think Beckett is clearly the MVP. I mean, he’s 14-4 on the team currently leading the wildcard race. Then again, he does have 31 fewer homers than Carlos Pena. But Pena’s team is in third!
Man, this MVP thing is tough.
Joe, you’re clearly making the mistake of expecting the MVP voting to be a rational exercise.
Remember, it is important to punish a player for his teammates’ poor performance.
“So take a look at the AL OPS+ rankings right now….Do you think it is possible that Twins players are getting a lift from the park adjustment factor, while other guys (Yanks, Sox) are being penalized.”
There’s no question that Twins players are getting a major boost from the park factor. Right now Baseball-Reference is using a park factor of 93 for Minnesota–tied with Oakland for lowest in the league–to calculate OPS+. But that park factor doesn’t yet include 2009 data, and so far this year the Metrodome is actually playing as an excellent hitters’ park, perhaps the best in the league (I have Minnesota’s ‘09 PF estmated at 109). Once BB-Ref updates the park factors at the end of the year with 2009 data, the OPS+ numbers for all the Twins’ hitters are going to drop severely.
Ted @34 said:
How do you quantify that? I don’t really know, but using ERA seems like a poor metric.
It IS a poor metric for measuring catchers. Keith Woolner, if I recall correctly, performed an exhaustive study on the matter and concluded that CERA tells us nothing. Worse, he discovered that in many cases — and by “many” I mean “enough to prove the point beyond the shadow of a doubt” — when you have one catcher who the pitchers prefer working with and who everyone considers to be a better handler of pitchers… he ends up having a higher CERA than other catchers on the team.
One reason it’s a flawed metric is pretty obvious; when you have pitchers that basically insist on personal catchers, the stats get skewed. You can have situations where an inferior catcher benefits from being the personal caddy for a pitcher who’s head-and-shoulders above the rest of the pitching staff regardless of who’s catching for him. I mean, the Royals could have the best defensive catcher ever, but if Greinke insists on throwing to a different catcher, what’s CERA going to tell you? Nothing, other than “Zack Greinke’s really good, isn’t he?”
I agree about Mauer being MVP but if there’s a defensive metric that rates Teixeira as below average there’s something wrong with the metric.
@36:
Baseball writers and their dang jingoism. No wonder Kim Jong Il is a golfer…
The best argument against Tex is his own teammate. And while it deals in a small sample size, it’s the sort of argument old-timey sportswrites love.
Before Alex Rodriguez came back on May 8th, Tex was hitting .198 with a .735 OPS. Since then he’s hitting .309 with a .988 OPS. The Yanks were 14-15 before ARod came back. They’re 60-29 since.
You could make a legitimate case that Tex isn’t the Yankees’ MVP, much less the entire MVP of the entire league.
I don’t really care about post-season awards. They don’t really matter for anything much that happens on the field. The only thing they are really good for is giving us all something to talk about during the off season besides whether or not the rich teams will just own all the best players…..
If Mauer didn’t play for a manager that was a total idiot*, the Twins would probably be running away with the AL Central and all this nonsense would be a non-starter. I blame his manager if he doesn’t win the award. Thanks, Joe, for stating the obvious. Joe Mauer is the clear AL MVP (and he should have won it last year, too).
*I don’t actually believe that Gardenhire is an “idiot”, but evaluations of his worth at this spot regularly deal in hyperbole. And what fun would it be if some Twins fan didn’t take this jab at JoePos?
@36 — “Plus Mauer has got three of the top four OPS+ guys in his lineup either protecting him or getting on base for him. ”
Protection is a myth. And only the Twins leadoff hitter (as of about two weeks ago) and fewer RBI opportunities (meaning he came up to bat with the bases empty more than any other player on the Twins but Denard Span, who is guaranteed such an at bat to begin every game) on the Twins lineup than Mauer, because the idiot manager insisted on putting Alexi Casilla or Matt Tolbert right in front of him in the lineup. But hey, he’s the best manager in the game!
I agree that Mauer is the clear leader for the MVP. However, it seems that people are missing the counter argument. Adding marginal wins in non-linear in a playoff race for a team in New York or Boston is much more valuable than adding marginal wins for a sub .500 team playing in the Cities. Fangraphs is an awesome site, but they don’t take into account standings/city economics their value for marginal wins, just the price of free agents on the open market. As Joe mentioned, the Yankees are no longer on the sweet spot of the value added by each marginal win curve, but the Red Sox are.
Teixeira is having an excellent year with the bat, no question – but Mauer’s season is historic.
As of today, Man Muscles is 13 points ahead of the record for catcher’s single season batting average. Sure, BA is overrated compared to OBP, SLG, OPS, OPS+… but there’s no need to pick and choose: Mauer leads the AL in all of ‘em.
Tex has 13 more RBI, but ranks only 3rd in the AL – and Mauer drives in a much higher percentage of his baserunners, 22.37% to 15.47%.
Mauer and Tex are both Gold Glove winners. Mauer fields the more important defensive position, but still, you’re talking about two superb glove men here. I consider that portion of the argument a wash.
Mauer is by far the most valuable Twin – a point readily and frequently conceded by Justin Morneau. With Jeter, A-Rod and Rivera as competition, it’s not clear that Tex is the most valuable Yankee.
There’s a lot of season left. Mauer’s missed a lot of games. The issue is not cut and dried.
But if the season ended today, there’d really be only one possible choice. With apologies to Pujols and Piazza, the 2009 edition of Joe Mauer is probably the best player in baseball, and possibly the best-hitting catcher of all time.
My current choice would be Mauer. Also, many responders are of the opinion that the MVP has to go to a player on a contending team. Let’s forget stats for a moment and look at history. Anyone remember Ernie Banks? He won the award in 1958 and 1959 on Cubs teams that were below .500 and finished sixth in the National League both years. The award requirements mention nothing about the teams ultimate performance.
[...] 17, 2009 · Leave a Comment It’s getting to be my favorite time of year again. That’s right–it’s end-of-the-year awards [...]
It seems clear to me as well that Mauer is the correct choice on talent and I consider it a no-brainer (at this point of the season anyway).
However I take issue with those who think it is somehow OK to include players from bad teams having good years. To me “Most Valuable” does indeed mean something different from “Most Outstanding.”
There have been few enough winners from bad teams and the fact that the Cubs are well represented in those cases may just be that cubs fans would never have a MVP if it required actually winning something
There currently is a best player award named after Aaron, which seems right to me. Why not push for the best player to be awarded that rather than insist he be given the MVP award as well?
All that said, I don’t think the team has to be in the playoffs for one of its players to get the MVP. After all, the twins really wouldn’t be competitive right now without him. Even if they just come close, he meets most valuable status in my view. But andre dawson in 1987? Not so much.
After all the Cubs surely could have finished last in 1987 without Andre Dawson but the cards surely wouldn’t have won without Ozzie.
Mike: a few reasons.
(1) Nothing about the definition of “Most Valuable” suggests that it can’t be won by a player from a bad team just as easily as from a good team. This whole “it’s called the most VALUABLE player” thing is something that has been made up by people who don’t really understand what words mean.
(2) The Hank Aaron Award is for the best hitter, not the best player, it’s never awarded to the actual best hitter, and nobody pays attention to it or cares about it. Nor should they (not because it’s not important to honor Hank Aaron, but because that award, if it does anything at all, is kind of making a mockery of his name).
(3) This is pretty much the same as #1 (it all falls apart based on that, really), but just think more about that. How dumb is it to have an individual award that’s dependent on how the individual’s team does? Even if that IS the definition of “valuable,” why would we want it to be? Why reward that? Without Mauer, the Twins would be something like eight or nine games worse than they are. Without Tex, the Yanks would be about five games worse (and still leading the league). Whether or not the team is competitive is dependent almost entirely on the other 24 guys. It just makes no sense at all to base an individual award mostly on factors outside the individual’s control.
Here is Kepner’s retort, for those who don’t hang around on the Times’s Bats blog.
http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/15/for-teixeira-and-mauer-mvp-chase-is-on/
I guess Mauer will have a better chance of winning MVP awards after he signs a 6 year, $145 million contract with the Yankees in 2 years.
[...] hear anything about UZR and those who think Teixeira’s UZR — among other things — gives Minnesota’s Joe Mauer the edge in the AL MVP race. I suppose it’s a fun time-wasting debate to have, though not as fun as seeing how worked up [...]
[...] hear anything about UZR and those who think Teixeira’s UZR — among other things — gives Minnesota’s Joe Mauer the edge in the AL MVP race. I suppose it’s a fun time-wasting debate to have, though not as fun as seeing how worked up [...]
#2 – the MVP award became a joke when Barry Bonds won it 4 years in a row
[...] into a full blown MVP debate. Anybody who’s anybody has chimed in, including Rob Neyer, Joe Posnanski, and about a million others. Since we’re always fashionably late to these kinds of things, [...]
[...] hear anything about UZR and those who think Teixeira’s UZR — among other things — gives Minnesota’s Joe Mauer the edge in the AL MVP race. I suppose it’s a fun time-wasting debate to have, though not as fun as seeing how worked up [...]
Except when Mauer himself was batting 2nd, the Twins have had a gaping hole offensively in terms of production from the second batter. Even a marginal increase in output from that position would increase his run production to close or beyond Tex despite missing May.
[...] Joe Posnanski, August 15th: Never mind that there is not a single thing that Mark Teixeira has done as well as Joe Mauer this year. Not one thing. Never mind that Mauer’s batting average is 87 points higher, his on-base percentage is 59 points higher, his slugging percentage is 57 points higher, his OPS+ is 40 points higher and he’s a freaking CATCHER, and a good one, while Teixera’s a first baseman*. [...]
[...] been lots of talk lately about Joe Mauer’s chances of winning the AL MVP, but rather than focus on how 28 newspaper [...]
[...] Mauer(notes), Minnesota Twins As Joe Posnanski writes, responding to the notion that Mark Teixeira(notes) may win the AL MVP: "There is not a single [...]
[...] Mauer(notes), Minnesota Twins As Joe Posnanski writes, responding to the notion that Mark Teixeira(notes) may win the AL MVP: "There is not a single [...]
[...] you guys are missing an obvious candidate — from Joe Posnanski: [...]
[...] Of particular interest was the short-lived daily update on Joe Mauer, the Minnesota Twins catcher who leads the major leagues in batting average. As a Twins fan, it [...]
Your article posted on the Internet on November 1, Mr. Fine, reports
that Derek Jeter was named the winner of MLB’s Hank Aaron Award as
most outstanding offensive performer in the American League.
A QUESTION… Did those who made this extraordinary decision compare
the offensive statistics between Mr. Jeter and Joe Mauer? Consider
the following facts:
–Mauer, a catcher, hit .365 to win his third batting title in four
years (Jeter’s .334 average–31 points lower–finished third).
–Mauer’s slugging percentage of .587 also led the league (Jeter’s
.465 finished 35th–trailing Mauer by 122 points).
–Mauer also led the league with an on-base percentage of .444, while
Jeter’s .406– although ranking third—was 38 points lower than the
Twins’ catcher.
–Even though he missed the entire first month of the season, Mauer
hit 28 home runs–one for every 18.7 at-bats. Jeter, playing a full
season, hit 18 HRs, or one per 35.1 times at bat.
–Mauer’s season-shortened RBI total of 96 (one per 5.4 ABs) was 45
percent more than Jeter’s total of 66 (one per 9.6 ABs).
As one who reported on this decision, Mr. Fine… how, by any stretch
of the imagination, could the Hank Aaron Award for “most outstanding
offensive performer” be given (literally, ‘given’) to one whose
offensive production was not remotely close to that achieved by Joe
Mauer?
–Ron Howe / Erskine, Minnesota
[...] Kepner, who is (at least in my mind) best known for rendering Joe Posnanski and Rob Neyer both apoplectic with his suggestion that Mark Texeira was the “No Question” MVP in August 2009 (which [...]