Should Have Been The Man
Posted: July 15th, 2009 | Filed under: Baseball | 98 Comments »
A few minutes after the All-Star Game ended, I ran into my friend Bernie Miklasz, columnist from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. Bernie has been writing columns in St. Louis now for about 20 years — he knows that town, understands it, feels it. It used to be that way for a long time … you would know the town by the sports columnist. Los Angeles was Jim Murray. New York was Red Smith or Dick Young, depending on which side of sports you lived. Detroit was Joe Falls. Kansas City was Joe McGuff. Cleveland was Hal Lebovitz. Atlanta was Furman Bisher. Miami was Edwin Pope. Charlotte was Ron Green. Dallas was Blackie Sherrod. Washington was Shirley Povich. And you could go on and on and on.
There are a few of those guys left — Bob Ryan in Boston and Terry Pluto in Cleveland immediately come to mind — but fewer all the time. We all know the world is changing. Bernie is hip to what’s new out there — he’s big on the Internet, radio, all that — but at heart I still like to think of him as an old school sports columnist who goes on feel and instinct and knowing the territory. When Gussie Busch died he wrote a column from a St. Louis saloon. That’s what I’m talking about.
“I thought the Musial thing was sad,” Bernie said, first thing. He was talking, of course, about the pre-game ceremony for Stan Musial and others before the All-Star Game on Tuesday in St. Louis. And you know how sometimes you know something but you don’t KNOW it until someone puts it into words. Well, it was like that.
Not that you asked, but to give some context I’ll give you a quick behind-the-scenes look at how I ended up writing this column about Musial for The Star. I came to the park fully intending to write about Stan Musial. There were at least three reasons for this … one will come as no surprise to readers of this blog: I love Musial. I have for a while now thought about writing a Musial book and I would say the big reason I have not started one is because Stan (through his people) asked me not to write the book. I respect Stan Musial too much to write a book he does not want written.
The second reason I was going to write a Musial column is because I was told that Baseball was going to give him his Ted Williams moment … remember that? Well, of course you remember it: Ted Williams out there on the mound in a golf cart, waving his cap, looking old and yet young all at once while everyone at Fenway Park stood and cheered. It would have brought tears out of lawn chairs. And it seemed to me that as loved as Williams was in Boston, well, Musial was doubly loved in St. Louis — Musial had stayed in St. Louis, he had appeared all over town, he had played his harmonica in countless places across the city. Stan Musial IS St. Louis, and he’s 88 years old, and word was he was energized by the All-Star Game. Two days before, Rick Hummell wrote a beautiful piece for the Post-Dispatch — a conversation between Musial and Albert Pujols. Yes, I expected this moment to be unforgettable.
The third reason, obviously, is the All-Star Game almost always sucks to write about.
So there you go: Write Musial. That was my tentative plan. And then it happened, Musial was driven out in a little red car, and the crowd stood and applauded. And it was nice. It really was nice. Only … it didn’t last very long. And it never soared past nice. The whole thing sort of sat there, happy but flat, and then President Obama came out in a White Sox jacket to throw the first pitch — more on that in a minute — and there were a few boos mixed with cheers, and he waved to the crowd and … it was over.
“So,” read the email from my editor, “are you still writing about Musial?”
“I don’t know,” I wrote back. And I didn’t know. It was weird. As a columnist, you really do follow your emotions and because deadline is always there, ticking down, you don’t take time to think WHY you are feeling one way or another. All I really knew was that the Musial idea suddenly felt kind of flat to me. I considered writing about something else — Greinke’s two strikeout inning, the brutal intentional walk* — but the game really didn’t provide much else that was interesting. And then, it hit me that while I really didn’t want to write about the ceremony I did want to write about Musial and the emotion of seeing him come out in the car. That was important to me. And it was a nice moment. And so that was the column I wrote. I didn’t mention anything about the odd feeling I had about the whole thing. I just wrote about Musial and about it being the best moment of the night, which it still was.
*I have no idea how anyone — even the biggest fan of the intentional walk — could defend walking someone in an All-Star Game. Don’t give me that bit about how the game counts and you have to play to win — baloney. Managers do not play the All-Star Game to win. They change pitchers every inning, try to get every hitter into the game no matter the score, and so on. This was the eighth inning of a 3-3 game. I think it would have been stupid to intentionally walk someone during a regular game. But in an ALL-STAR GAME? You’re really going to intentionally walk a hitter for his only at-bat in an All-Star Game? Sickening.
All of which takes me to that moment when Bernie said, “That Musial thing was sad,” and it was as if he voiced that little voice that had been nagging all night. Bernie immediately brought my own feelings to the surface, my feelings that — in a quiet way — Stan Musial had been shortchanged again.
I can’t understand it, really. Why don’t more people appreciate Musial? Of all people. It seems to me that the men who have run baseball for more than 100 years have always wanted to to tie the game to this mythical image of a certain ballplayer, a gee whiz ballplayer who doesn’t swear, doesn’t smoke, doesn’t brag and doesn’t gripe, a baseball hero who runs out every ball and comes through in the clutch and signs every autograph after the game. The image, simply, is of Stan Musial. He wasn’t perfect, of course (there were even reports of him smoking under stairwells). But perfection doesn’t come into play. He was the closest thing. He hit .331 for his career. But as a baseball man he hit .900.
And where was he in the great narrative of baseball history? Ken Burns barely mentioned him in his nine-inning epic on baseball. Musial wasn’t picked by the fans for the All-Century Team. There have been a few smaller books about him — a couple that are quite good — but nothing overly popular. Ask a fan outside of the Midwest to name the greatest living ballplayer and there’s no telling how long he might go before naming Musial.
Musial … who led the National League:
In hitting seven times (Ted Williams led six times) …
In on-base percentage six times (Mickey Mantle led three times) …
In slugging percentage six times (Willie Mays led five times) …
In OPS+ six times (Hank Aaron led three times) …
In runs five times (Same as Rickey Henderson) …
In RBIs twice (Barry Bonds led the league in RBIs once) …
In doubles eight times (Pete Rose led five times) …
In triples five times (Ty Cobb led the league four times) …
In total bases six times (Same as Babe Ruth) …
In extra-base hit seven times (George Brett + Carl Yastrzemski + Frank Robinson + Ken Griffey = 7).
Then, you can’t really shake your fist at history … well, you can, but it doesn’t do much good. People will remember who they want to remember. People will make heroes out of who they want to make heroes. Musial was constant and Musial was class, and while those traits endure, well, maybe they don’t burn a place in today’s sports memory.
But none of that has anything to do with Tuesday night. This was the All-Star Game … in St. Louis … where Musial’s memory is very much alive … where baseball fans never forget class … where baseball was supposedly trying to feature all that’s right about this game. There seemed no way to screw this one up …
And then, they did kind of screw it up, at least a little bit … and it seems to me that politics was the reason. In my view, President Obama was a bad choice to throw out the first pitch on Tuesday. It has nothing to do with his politics, and it has nothing to do with his job performance, and it has nothing to do with the Chicago White Sox jacket he wore on the field.
No, it’s more this: Politics divides us. I mean that beyond the obvious. A seemingly harmless joke about Sarah Palin or about Hillary Clinton cuts the room in half. People tend to think that they know my political leanings, and maybe those leanings do come through from time to time. But one thing that I can tell you without any hesitation is that I respect the office of the presidency. It both baffles me and even infuriates me when I hear someone say, “Oh, I wouldn’t even shake the president’s hand.” I don’t get that all. I can tell you this: In my office, I have one personal item hanging on the wall — a framed letter from President Bush about my book The Soul of Baseball. And if President Obama would send me a letter about The Machine, I would hang it on the wall right next to it. I have political opinions just like everyone else. But unlike many, I don’t take them too seriously.
That said: I know that a sitting president — especially in times like these — inspires strong feelings in people. He does cut the room in half. And that’s not what the All-Star Game should be about. It may have SOUNDED good — the idea of having a sitting president throw out the first pitch — but I thought the execution was lousy.* It felt like the game lost its universal feeling. President Obama — by virtue of his personality, his political views, his various decisions — sparks anger in some, pride in others, disgust in some, hope in others, and none of that has anything to do with the Baseball All-Star Game.
You know who represents the Baseball All-Star Game? That’s right: Stan Musial. And the night should have been about him. It was his town. It was his time. it was his game. There were other terrific Cardinals there — Bob Gibson, Ozzie Smith, Red Schoendienst and so on — and they should have been a bigger part of the night too. But mostly it should have been about Stan the Man, Baseball’s Perfect Knight, who played the game as well and with as much purpose as anyone ever. The night was touching — it couldn’t help but be touching — but Bernie did have it right too: It was also kind of sad. I cannot help but wish now that everyone had stuck to their job — President Obama to fixing the economy and making the world safer, Stan The Man Musial to reminding us what baseball can be about.
* * *
*UPDATE: A couple of brilliant readers point out that maybe it was the film of the five living presidents — and the extended time spent talking about “The Heroes Among Us” — that actually took away time that could have been spent celebrating Stan Musial and baseball. I think that may be right … but I think it all goes hand in hand. I’m not blaming President Obama for it. I think baseball people wanted the cachet of having a sitting president throw the first pitch. And I think the only way to get a sitting president to throw the first pitch was to make it all about more than baseball … about public service and so on. That led to a video featuring all five presidents. And it led to President Obama throwing out the first pitch to mostly cheers and a few boos.
That’s all fine and good … but I think a tribute to one of the greatest legends in baseball history in his home park in the twilight years of his life would have been more fitting and more special and more proper. And it would have inspired goosebumps too.
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Great piece again, Joe. As a Cardinal fan and baseball fan, I thank you once again for bring Musial to the forefront and doing your best to correct wrongs. You are once again one of baseball’s real protectors.
Yes. Even from a die hard Cubs fan…yes.
Completely agree that President Obama’s presence overshadowed Stan the Man and took away from his moment. It is hard to say a president shouldn’t be involved in an event like this if he is willing and able, but Musial deserves that Ted Williams moment and didn’t get it. He deserved a moment on the mound with all the current all-stars. He deserved a moment in the spotlight. He deserved to have his story told over and over and over again on SportsCenter.
Instead, we were left watch the President’s pitch barely reach home plate.
I do not understand this tendency to blame the slighting of Stan Musial on the presence of Barack Obama throwing out the first pitch. Someone had to throw out the first pitch. It could have been Obama, it could have been Ozzie Smith, it could have been a beer vendor. But someone had to do it. In the 45 minutes or so they had to do the Nat’l Anthem, the first pitch, and the reading of the lineups. That left some discretionary time that MLB chose to spend on that video about “America’s Heroes”, or whatever they called it, with narration from all the ex-Presidents. That was what took time away from Musial. That was what took the place of, oh, Musial taking a ride around the ballpark in a cart while the crowd went nuts. Not Obama.
I dunno what owners want, but I don’t think fans want this… if you asked them, they would probably say they did… but they don’t, not really. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think they want raging asocial jerks either, but a “perfect knight” can be just as hard to relate to. (A “perfect knight” also tends to foster fewer stories that create a unique, lasting image of himself.)
This is no offense to Musial, who probably is the greatest living player, and is extremely underrated just as a baseball player.
JPos,
What a great piece of writing, can’t agree more. I’ve just started reading this blog tonight, but after a couple articles I’m tempted to stay up all night reading through everything you’ve written.
No offense to Musial, Joe, or you, Mean Dean, but:
Did Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, and, dare I say it, Barry Bonds all die when I wasn’t looking?
(winky face)
Joe,
if I didn’t know better, I’d swear you were a dyed in the wool Cardinals fan, just like me. For reasons that I won’t go into, I decided to forego the pre-game bluster on TV, so I’m glad I missed out on the “dis”(for lack of a better term) of The Man. My grandparents knew Mr. Musial personally, and he was my father’s boyhood idol, so I had some well-founded second-hand knowledge of him as both a player and a person.
To this day, I find it difficult to fathom how he has basically been put on the back burner by not only the media, but by several baseball historians, as well.
I guess some people never learn.
Might it just be that someone who simply does his job quietly and professionally – no matter how superbly – just doesn’t make as vivid a story as some who’s more flamboyant? Or flagrant?
I had assumed that the President was their second choice after Musial had been forced for whatever private reason to declined the honor.
It’s the Pete Sampras argument. A lot of people say they want their athletes to be like Sampras, all business and all about their sport. So when Sampras was successful, many writers complained that he was boring. People just don’t know what they want.
Back to baseball. Mays had his All-Star moment two years ago. Last year it was Yogi. So it should have been more for Stan.
Next year we will see the greatest living Angel player paraded around the Big A in Los Angeles. It’d be funny if it ends up being Tim Salmon, who never actually played in an All-Star game.
I tuned in specifically to see a ‘coronation’ of Stan Musial. Maybe the current players coming to greet the legend. Mr. Obama taking the ball from the greatest Cardinal of them all. Instead I got a golf cart and a few nice words from Joe Buck.
It was like when the Olympic torch comes into the stadium and they cheer and it’s carried by a great person then they hand it off to the next bearer to light the torch and you kind of feel let down for that penultimate carrier.
I agree with Vidor. The President throwing out the first pitch was probably the most memorable part of the game (outside of Crawford’s catch). The entire thing occurred pretty quickly. The problem was the other 40 minutes of pre-game nonsense.
Better yet, what if we would have skipped yet another needless rendition of God Bless America and celebrated Musial in the 7th inning stretch. That would have been memorable.
I’m not sure what else they could have done. It seems to me like it would have played out exactly the same had Obama been there or not.
I’m with you, Rob– what does God care about baseball? Baseball’s too good to mess it up like that. If they insist on singing something patriotic, I’ve always thought America the Beautiful would be a much better choice. Celebrates the beauty of this country instead of it’s ability to fight wars, and at a baseball game that seems like a more fitting tribute.
“I had assumed that the President was their second choice after Musial had been forced for whatever private reason to declined the honor.”
Ill health.
Stan “The Man” Musial! Yeah!
In a way, though, isn’t it fitting that the most overlooked superstar in MLB history is even overlooked during his own team’s celebration of his career?
I feel like the ‘everyday all-stars,’ as nice an idea as it was, could’ve been saved for a year when the ASG was being held in a city without as much tradition as St. Louis. The theme for the evening could’ve simply been a celebration of Cardinals baseball.
With regards to writing a book, it is honorable to respect Musial’s wishes. Perhaps, every so often, Joe, you might write another stanza of your Ballad of The Man and publish it here. His story could unfold in compendious crumbs.
Forgive my selfish compulsion. I just REALLY want to read that book.
Thank you.
Fantastic. par the course.
I wasn’t able to watch any part of the All Star game, so afterwards, I jumped online hoping to see exactly what Joe wrote about, the equivalent to Williams in 99 or Mays in 07. I couldn’t find anything. So Puljos talked about him a bit, but there seems to be no All Star game video on MLB.com even with Musial in the title. I then watched Obama’s first pitch, and immediately recognized Musial sitting in the golf cart, handing the Prez the first pitch ball. And I immediately felt that the Cardinals and/or MLB dropped the ball here.
Baseball is a great and popular not just for the game itself, but for its discussions, its numbers, and its history, which is unparalleled in any other professional sport. Maybe it’s too sentimental, but I am flat out amazed that Musial didn’t get a full glory treatment.
Isn’t it possible that Musial just didn’t want a big fuss made over him? From all I’ve read about him, it seems like he’s modest to a fault. That kind of a guy might not be comfortable with everyone slapping him on the back and making a big deal out of everything.
@devil_fingers…yes, there are a great many of us who have heard of those fellows you named – and we whole-heartedly agree Stan Musial was better than him. Just look at the all-around player he was, and did it for 24 years! Just look at the stats, man.
I agree completely with the people who are pointing the finger at the “tribute” video as the problem. Somebody HAD to throw out the first pitch, and Obama’s was actually very quick – quick trot to the mound, immediate toss of the ball, and quick trot off the field.
That said, I completely agree with Joe that asking the President to throw out the first pitch is a bad idea. I think it’s fair to say that of the last two Presidents, a good portion of the American people really like one and really dislike the other. I know that’s true of me: whenever the one I dislike shows up on my TV screen, I have a bad reaction to him, regardless of the context. No matter which of these guys you’re talking about, you’re going to annoy at least 40% or so of the audience.
I wholeheartedly agree with you, Joe. If MLB wanted the president to throw out a meaningful first pitch, why not the World Series? (Of course, maybe they vetted this idea and one side or the other didn’t want him to come up so short against Bush in the article of actually throwing the pitch. No wonder he threw it and got the hell out of there so quickly.) Stan Musial deserved more than what he got, especially from the best baseball city in the country.
Joe, I agree with what you write about a lot. My only complaint about your writing is that I wished you did more of it about basketball., but I don’t think it was all on Obama that Musial’s tribute wasn’t all that it should have been. I think there was room for both. The ceremony was long enough for that, more than long enough.
What robbed the power of Musial’s presence for me was the illustrious group of retired players who preceded him and the manner of his entrance. When Ted Williams had his tribute, he was the only retired legend on the field. He had the spotlight solely to himself. When he came onto the field, he alone filled the vacuum of the past and connected it with the present. With Musial’s, there wasn’t as big a contrast in historical presences. There were some great icons in their own right that came on the field before him, The ceremony overall, even after his extended and unique entrance, felt like an all-time St. Louis team celebration. The adulation was too spread around to give Musial his concentrated moment of appreciation.
It also didn’t help matters for me that he came out on a golfcart while the other legends had walked out on the field. They’re not young guys either but in walking onto the field they looked healthy. I know carting Musial in around the field was supposed to be special but the contrast between him being wheeled in and the others walking in made him seem old and frail. It distracted me into thinking about his health as much as his career. It made me sad about aging. At least when Williams wheeled in he was alone and there wasn’t an additional layer of sadness created by contrasted gradations of aging.
So true.
The camera work on Musial was horrible, too (as it was on the first pitch). From the angles and distance they showed him, I don’t think his own family would be able to tell you for sure that it was him and not some random older guy.
I voted for obama and i agree with you. I dont know how baseball allowed it. The only way to make it work have been to have Dubya and his love for baseball in the suite with him.
also, hate to admit but i have no idea who Red Schoendienst is. any good factoids?
I hate Furman Bisher.
This is one of those situations where I’d love to know a few more facts before reaching any conclusion. Given Musial’s physical appearance, which, sadly, wasn’t all that great, plus his known reluctance to be in the spotlight, I think it’s entirely possible that the ceremony was all that could be done. For all we know, he didn’t even want that much done for him, but relented to help MLB and his beloved St. Louis put on a good show. I think it’s unfair to chastise MLB in this instance when it’s entirely possible Musial didn’t want a bigger fuss made over him. If you’ve got some facts about the situation that could enlighten us all, Joe, then please share them.
If Musial played in Boston the Curly Haired Boyfriend would have gotten him elected President of the United States by now.
Tangential, but…
If I were a manager with a 33 man roster and I wanted to win a game I would absolutely use one pitcher per inning. The whole staff would be able to go all out on every pitch and the 100 pitch count controversy would be settled. As such, over the course of the game, I would anticipate a higher average value per pitch.
In your last post, I gave you a hard time for not writing about Greinke. I still wish you would have, but I really enjoyed this piece about what goes into your decision process. Thanks you
And as for this line: This was the All-Star Game … in St. Louis … where Musial’s memory is very much alive … where baseball fans never forget class … where baseball was supposedly trying to feature all that’s right about this game.
Ugh. I live in Chicago (but am a Royals fan) and I’ve seen plenty of Cardinals fans that forgot class. I’ll never figure out where this mystique about Cardinals fans came from. To me they seem to be about the same as most other team’s fanbases; some great folks and some jerks. With the exception being that they all like to talk about how great their fans are. I guess that’s the difference.
I hated that Intentional walk as well, but I can almost forgive it because the game semi-kinda-almost counts. Nah! I can’t forgive it!
But back in 1979, Dave Parker was intentionally walked in an even worse situation. 9th inning, tie ballgame with one out. Joe Morgan is on 2nd after working a walk followed by a Jim Kern balk. Kern then intentionally walks Parker to pitch to Craig Reynolds…I guess hoping for a double play.
Reynolds pops out to 3B for the second out. Ron Cey then draws a walk to load the bases. That’s it for Kern (who came in to pitch the 7th). Ron Guidry comes in, walks Lee Mazzilli (who Kern had given up a homer to in the previous inning) and the NL wins it. Well, after Bruce Sutter retired the AL in the bottom of the 9th.
So in that game…a true exhibition…how do you justify Parker’s IBB? You can’t!
I think in that situation the classy thing to do would have been to wave to the crowd and then turn to Musial and offer him the chance to go out and toss the first pitch, to let the crowd really go crazy for the guy – in fact, offer to CATCH it for him, and say that it would be a great honor. If he declines then, fine, but you’re offering him the opportunity.
After all, Musial used to be a pitcher who just played some outfield on days off. He hurt his shoulder on a fielding play, and lost his effectiveness on the mound, so his manager, Dickie Kerr, moved him to the outfield full-time.
And I learned THAT from Furman Bisher, so nertz to you, comment #30!
@Spud: We all know the greatest living Angel is that scrappy midget, David Eckstein.
And I’m totally on board with getting rid of “God Bless America” from baseball games. I LOATHE that song, and actively turn the channel whenever they sing it in the 7th. How about “This Land is Your Land”? That’s got as much to do with baseball as the other and is just as patriotic.
i have to say, i thought the St.Louis crowd was pretty disappointing as far as reaction goes.
i don’t blame the President, the video or anything else –
the fans in St.Louis could have forced a longer pause on Mr. Musial.
the greatest ovations are never scripted, they are organic. there was a chance for that moment to happen and it didn’t.
there’s no one to blame, there’s just a lost opportunity.
@ Somebody (#29):
Red Schoendienst, Hall of Fame second baseman, 15 years for the Cardinals and also a few for the Giants and Braves. 10-time All-Star, and played in 3 World Series. After he retired he managed the Cardinals for 12 years and won pennants in ‘67 and ‘68. Later a coach under Whitey Herzog. His number 2 is retired by the Cardinals.
Another thoughtful effort, but I think you’re too quick to agree with Miklasz. I read his column right after I read yours yesterday, and I thought his was offbeat. Now, full disclosure, I wasn’t there and I’m a Cubs fan. But I still love Stan Musial. I felt like Bernie’s column was a great example of how St. Louis always has a chip on its collective shoulder. There’s this constant striving to be appreciated more by the world outside of St. Louis. Stan Musial is an absolute baseball legend, one who baseball fans appreciate well without the help of Ken Burns, and who is revered and adored by Cardinals fans. I just don’t really get why that isn’t enough. It seems to have always been more than enough for Musial, and maybe it’s time it becomes more than enough for St. Louis.
I was also surprised at how little pomp and circumstance there was surrounding Musial’s entrance, but given how little publicity he gets for everything he accomplished, I can’t say as I was surprised.
My real point concerns Joe’s observation that the President is a dividing figure. Perhaps I was overly naive or oblivious in my youth, but this seems to be a fairly new phenomenon. I mean, there were always those who disliked the president, but it wasn’t until recently that I’ve noticed things being SO divided. It seems people either love Obama or they hate him, much as they loved or hated Bush. Everyone’s dug in their heels so there’s no middle ground. No matter what Obama does or does not do, some people will detest the guy. If he singlehandedly saved the world from an alien invasion, there would still probably be those 40-plus per cent of people who would refuse to give him any credit and would harp on some perceived fault (and yes, Bush was in the same boat.)
The thing is, you see those attitudes showing up in a variety of areas now (albeit not as strongly): science vs. faith is a big one; I don’t recall the religious right ever being so anti-science as they’ve been over the past few years.
The “if you’re not with us, you’re against us” attitude is even prevalent in the stats vs. non-stats and the bloggers vs. mainstream media arguments. Obviously, there are moderates in many of these debates, but it seems as though some people seem intent on shouting louder and raising more of a stink than the other side in order to rally the troops and win people over. It’s become contentious to the point where people are almost forced to pick a side.
Over the past decade or so, it seems the big-picture debate has almost become those who look for knowledge vs. those who proudly engage in stubborn, willful anti-intellectualism.
I thought, as always, that Joe wrote a good piece. A great one.
But I’m writing about the person who said that Obama should have thrown out the first pitch in the World Series instead. Obama was there because he was invited. He accepted because he lost Missouri by fewer than 4000 votes. Also, thanks to that midwestern politeness, he’s very unlikely to get booed there. Hell, John Kerry — who wins reelections with substantial margins — got booed at Fenway when he threw out a first pitch there.
Two quick questions for those who doubt whether this was a good move: What team does Barack Obama root for? What team does Hillary Clinton root for?
I bet the person who was concerned the least about Stan Musial being shortchanged — was Stan Musial.
“People will remember who they want to remember. People will make heroes out of who they want to make heroes. Musial was constant and Musial was class, and while those traits endure, well, maybe they don’t burn a place in today’s sports memory.”
This is the part that I agreed the most with. Think about the names that tend to enter the discussion. Most of them had larger-than-life aspects (Ruth, DiMaggio, Cobb, Rose, Henderson, Mantle) or did something incredibly special (Aaron, Williams) or have a key fact about them (Gehrig) or made a famous catch on film (Mays) or what have you. Musial was spectacular, and spectacularly steady, but he didn’t do it in a huge media market, and he didn’t hit 500 home runs, and he didn’t covet media attention, and he didn’t hit .400 in a single season, and he was overshadowed during his own career by Ted Williams and the Yankees, who were more famous in bigger media markets back when that was perhaps even more important than it is now. It probably didn’t help that Musial played in four World Series but none after 1946 (although he beat Williams in that one!), which was just his fourth full season, and he didn’t have any signature postseason moments. Fair? No. Surprising? Welll, no, not that either.
A few more points based on reader comments:
I’d be all for getting rid of God Bless America, but as a Canadian, I don’t know that my opinion has much sway. I DO think you’d hear a lot of outrage from some corners, whether it be jingoistic types who want to celebrate their country or hard-core religious types who want the evocation of God.
To TS81 [#40]: I don’t think Musial IS appreciated enough outside of St. Louis. Growing up, I never heard of him mentioned alongside the all-time greats. He always seemed to be lumped in with the second tier of H0Fers, not as an inner-circle guy. It wasn’t until I looked up his numbers a few years back that I really saw what the guy accomplished on the field.
On another note, I find the new site sometimes has glitches when I’m posting a really long comment. Of course, that may be by design.
I have read quite a bit of St. Louis reaction on Bernie’s Post Dispatch blog and I think the people of St. Louis feel that Musial did not get the adulation he deserved from the players and MLB, like Williams did in 1999.
Unfortunately, I think there are a number of factors really outside anybody’s control that led to this.
1) 10 years is a lot of time in baseball years. Frankly, Ted Williams in 1999 was a bigger deal in the eyes of the players than Stan Musial in 2009. None of today’s players ever saw Stan play. Heck, Randy Johnson is probably the only player born when Stan was still playing. In 1999, some of those guys might have seen Teddie Ball Game play and even if they didn’t, he was closer to them in time.
2) Remember, in 1999 Teddie Ballgame threw out the first pitch. The ceremonial first pitch is always going to be the focus of any pregame festivities and pretty much whoever throws it out will be the focus of that ceremony. Here that was the President. Therefore, there was no way that Stan the Man was going to be the focus of pregame activities.
3) And also remember the player tribute to Teddie Ballgame happened AFTER he threw out the pitch. And it was started by Carlton Fisk (who caught the ball) and Tony Gwynn, who was standing by the Splendid Splinter when he threw it (to help make sure that the nearly blind Williams threw the ball in the right direction). Here, clearly the players were not going to do the same thing for Musial AFTER the pitch. It would be weird (and actually pretty rude) for the players to go over and give their attention to Musial when the leader of the Free World was still on the field. So that moment of spontaenaity (sp??) was simply not going to happen this time.
And honestly, had the President not agreed to throw out the first pitch (and St. Louisans, please, I lived there for 10 years, I know about the chip on your shoulders, but the most important person in America comes to your city to throw out the first pitch and you still are unhappy, Buck up a little please), then I think the player tribute to Musial does happen. If he could throw at all, I could see Pujols catching and hugging him afterwards with Bob Gibson standing by him as he threw. Then I think the players, maybe led by Torre and some of the coaches who do know how special Musial is, do come out and “mob” him like happened with Williams in 1999.
4) Look, like it or not, hate him or love him, President Obama is our leader. He is probably the most important person in the world right now. If he is on the field, or the stage or whatever, he is going to upstage anyone else there. He just is. He is the POTUS. Probably the only person in the world who wouldn’t be upstaged by the POTUS is Queen Elizabeth. Once he agreed to be there to throw the first pitch, Stan was not going to be the focus of attention. That is the way it is. I disagree a little with Joe here, because I don’t think it is his polarizing nature that makes him the center of attention, it is simply the office he occupies. Had it been Warren Harding, he still would have been the center of attention, because he is the POTUS. (and I speak as someone who actually voted for both of our last 2 sitting Presidents and think both of them are sincere people who tried (or are trying) to do the best they can in the most difficult job in the world during extremely difficult times)
[...] * Poz is right: the Cardinals botched a golden opportunity to honor Stan the Man [...]
There has not been and there probably will never be a more heightened atmosphere for a presidential first pitch than when Prez Bush #43 threw his hummer prior to Game 3 of the 2001 World Series in Yankee Stadium. Yes, the country and that city were in a great different mindset from today but I still recall the chills that event created in me and I was only watching on a small TV in Canada at the time. Maybe another Presidential first pitch should not be compared to that night in the fall of 2001 but if I were a President I think I might politely decline and try something different to set the stage for a big game. (Tom Verducci of SI wrote a wonderful piece last year about the moments leading up to that toss by Bush when he was recalling events at Yankee Stadium – Excellent read, and I am not a Yankee fan.)
I did not see the All-Star game the other night. Perhaps Musial should have been handed a bat and persuaded to get into his famous stance just one more time? That would have been more meaningful to me than his throwing a ball. After his earlier discussed arm injury, Stan’s arm strength was his poorest tool. Why bring that back up by asking him to show off that tired arm one more time?
I’ll echo the comment earlier that the lack of a roaring ovation had everything to do with the St. Louis fans and nothing to do with anyone else.
We hear all the time about how great St. Louis baseball fans are and they came up incredibly lame in their chance to honor the greatest player in their franchise’s history.
If Melody doesn’t care for God I assume she has never actually read the text of America the Beautiful – all 4 stanzas…
I think Brent hit on a key point in that 1999 was largely spontaneous. It was genuine because it just happened.
It is like Groundhog Day when after Bill Murray had the perfect day when he finally got it right and fell into the snow with Andie McDowell, he then spent the next however many days trying to do exactly the same thing, but then it lost its magic from so much effort and fell flat.
I just think that night in Boston was a perfect storm for a tribute, and trying to compare other moments to this one will always leave them feeling weaker.
I will now go self-flagellate for referencing Groundhog Day.
Curtis #51: Absolutely correct, because the Williams event in ‘99 was not scripted it was geniune and memorable. That’s part of the point I (lamely) tried to make above comparing Presidential first pitches since the Prez Bush speedball in the fall of 2001. That event will never be duplicated and maybe we should just stop trying but rather have the President do something entirely different. Why not have him go up and down the basepaths and shake each player’s hand after all are introduced? Or, meet at homeplate with the managers and the umps when the lineup cards are exchanged? The first pitch thing is tired and excruciating, especially since 2001 World Series.
Well, the president throwing out the first pitch was started by Taft if I remember my presidential trivia correctly. So asking presidents to quit throwing out the first pitch is like asking for the end of Take Me Out to the Ballgame in the seventh inning. As far as executing it, I thought Obama was just right – he came in, did his thing, and got out of there with as little fuss as possible for the leader of the free world.
The difference is that I don’t think anyone was trying to recreate a moment like 2001, but they were trying to recreate the Williams thing like 1999.
thanks perry.
I’m a Phillies fan. I went to the last Busch Stadium (as well as wrigley, fenway, old yankees, skydome, camden yards, DC) . Had a good time. The cardinals were good and in a pennant race, etc. their fans were fun even in the middle of a tornado warning. Everywhere you look you saw red (like philly now). I don’t know why people from areas other than St. Louis get upset when you call St. Louis a good baseball town. I thought they were indeed pretty unique. This is supposed to offend me as a northeasterner? People dont get offended when you say Camden Yards is the best (newer) stadium, but for some reason it bothers people about St Louis.
also i dont like joe buck, but i was interested to learn the whole cardinals nation convo this week about them being the westermost team for awhile about their games being carried on the radio in florida. cool stuff.
Brilliance. Sheer brilliance.
I hope you guys will pardon this long comment, but I was at the game and just want to share what I saw.
I was going to make the same point Brent made. 10 years is a long time, not just for the players but for the fans. It’s unlikely that many fans at the game on Tuesday under the age of 55 have vivid memories of Musial as an active player. I thought this was reflected in the louder ovations for Ozzie and Gibson and even Jack Buck via videotape, all of whom are part of the living memory of most Cardinal fans.
Another critical difference between this and 1999 was that the Ted Williams appearance was a reconciliation. It was the resolution of decades of tension between Williams and the city of Boston. Musial, thankfully, has no such unresolved issues with St. Louis. Joe sort of alludes to this in his post: “Musial had stayed in St. Louis, he had appeared all over town, he had played his harmonica in countless places across the city.” There was none of the “all is forgiven” element that gave the Williams appearance in 1999 added impact.
I also think people are ignoring that Musial was chosen to hand the ball to the President of the United States, which in itself is an incredible honor and a nice moment that I think went almost totally unrecognized. That’s an honor that Bud Selig could have easily, easily, kept for himself, but MLB did the right thing and let The Man do it. For me personally, that moment of Musial, who just embodies class and dignity, handing a baseball to the President of the United States was simple and frankly beautiful, but it seems like most people didn’t see it as anything special.
I have to disagree with Joe and several commentors who said that the President should not have appeared at the game because he is divisive. He is divisive, but why should we give in to a boorish minority? For most in attendance the President’s appearance was a special moment that they’ll remember probably for the rest of their lives and the TV audience for the All-Star Game hit a ten-year high, and it wouldn’t have happened if MLB had said, well, 20% of the crowd might boo so let’s just not make the invitation.
The problem in my view wasn’t that the President was there, it was the small minority of fans who embarrassed themselves by failing to show respect for the office. At the very least these people could have maintained a respectful silence.
What kind of statement did these people think they were making? You have to remember, the President was there to honor people who have done incredible volunteer work in the hopes that some people in the gigantic television audience might do something themselves. You can choose to be cynical, but I really believe that’s why he came. And some people are going to choose that moment to boo? I truly don’t understand people like that. It just makes no sense to me.
What does 10 years have to do with anything regarding a man who played decades ago? Bottom line is Stan Musial was a tremendous baseball player, and an even better human being. His accolades is exactly what the MLB needs right now. To show its fans that the tradition of the game still stands strong, and not to forget the people who defined the game. Musial is vastly underrated, check the stats above. This was a chance for MLB to transition from the old standards set by Musial, and the new standards being set by Albert Pujols.
As for the “St. Louis demands more” comments, I really do not see the argument there. Yes, I’m from St. Louis, but I have also lived in other parts of the country and attended numerous other ballparks. There is nothing better than seeing the tradition of the St. Louis fans, and how they honor the players. Randy Johnson received a standing ovation for his 300th win. When Griffey Jr. hit his 500th home run here, he received a standing ovation that brought tears to his eyes. Its that kind of respect that defines Cardinals fans.
I agree, Joe, that Musial was shortchanged. It’s nothing new for Stan, though. He wasn’t pretty like Mantle, didn’t marry actresses like DiMaggio, and didn’t brag constantly like Williams.
He didn’t make an overrated World Series catch like Mays. He didn’t even die in a plane crash like Clemente.
He and Aaron are probably the most overlooked legends in baseball history. My feelings were that while Musial may have been uncomfortable with the Fenway-like fawning of a few years ago, it would have been appropriate to AT LEAST educate (or re-educate) the baseball world on this largely-forgotten star. His numbers alone would have brought to the front his historic greatness.
I think in 20 years, we’ll speak of Pujols in the same breath as Cobb, Mays, Musial, Aaron, Ruth, Williams, et.al. I found it ironic that the media almost seemed to go overboard to avoid the “east coast bias” as it pertains to Albert, lest he befall the same fate as Stan…all while overlooking ‘The Man’ once again.
He does appear to be underrated. Still, as far as the ceremony is concerned i think another point is overlooked. When it was Ted Williams it was original (and maybe a little bit spontaneous?). ten years later “to give (somebody) the ted williams treatment” is a little bit forced and manufactured.
Having players come out to respect one of the greatest ballplayers that ever lived is in no way shape or form un-original.
@somebody #54: I don’t think it irks people when St. Louis is referred to as a good baseball town. It is a good baseball town. It bothers people when Cardinals fans are referred to as “The Best Fans in Baseball” and that happens quite frequently. It probably bothers some because that is a stupid concept to begin with, nobody’s fans are the best fans in baseball. All fanbases have some good, some bad.
It bothers me because Fox, which gets Saturday baseball, the World Series, at least one LCS, etc. has put together as its lead announcing team Joe Buck and Tim McCarver. Both have strong ties to St. Louis and the Cardinals and are always almost sure to remind you that a game is being played in front of “The Best Fans in Baseball” whenever there is a national telecast from St. Louis. (Maybe I’m just bitter from the ‘06 NLCS, when the two were pretty clearly pulling for the Cardinals, IMO)
@dtro: Cardinal fans never gave themselves the “best fans in baseball” monkier. When players are tallied on which fans are the best, St. Louis fans for the most part are picked. That’s where the nickname came from. I think every fan is loyal to their team, there’s no doubt in that. My guess is that you are from New York, and while you get upset at Buck and McCarver being “biased” towards the Cardinals, keep in mind that for the most part, the media is biased towards the east coast in general. Very little attention is paid to midwestern teams and their fans. Detroit has a huge baseball history, as does Cincy, Cleveland, Chicago, I could go on and on. But these teams are always overlooked, when in fact, their history goes a lot longer than most teams located on the east coast.
I agree, the uniqueness of a particular fan base is what makes them interesting. I dislike buck and mccarver as well. I dislike how when, as a phillies fan, i have to hear about a snowball thrown at santa by an eagles fan in the 60s somehow defines me particularly during the world series, and he didnt have anything particularly interesting to say about tampa either. it’s strange to me that the sport has to find personalities instead of good inciteful people to call the games. it doesnt seem to hard. TBS for example picked up john smoltz, here is a guy that isn’t even an announcer and he did a terrific job. I suppose I’m ok that Joe Buck likes St. Louis, i just wish St. Louis would keep joe buck.
Regarding Buck and McCarver…
The two are in a no-win situation. Everyone knows they’re lifetime Cardinals, so people are ultra-sensitive to their perceived partiality. Cardinals fans, conversely, can be critical of the pair because of supposed disloyalty during national broadcasts.
I was with Joe after the game, and he said it best. He was simply bursting with pride that his hometown had cleaned up so nicely for such a huge event. For a little kid that hung out at the ballpark to be calling the game nationally and retiring to his own restaurant after the game…who wouldn’t show a little favoritism?
I’ll say this for St. Louis. They balance family-friendliness with serious baseball fandom better than any other team. Red Sox fans are more intense and Cub fans throw a better party, but Cardinal fans combine the two better than anyone.
That balance is a core appeal of baseball, IMO, and every team pulls it off to some degree, but I think St. Louis maximizes both. 5 year olds, 35 year olds, and 65 year olds are all catered to equally well.
I don’t know if that makes STL the “best” baseball town in America, but they generate a particularly fun, friendly atmosphere at their park.
I think it’s sad that a sitting President divides us; that politics divides us.
I can’t imagine many other sites where the author could bring the president into it and 50-some unique commenters could weigh in without a single one making a clearly partisan remark. I never take this place for granted.
Even if Joe still seems to take Fletch for granted …
Joe,
What an excellent piece of writing. I just found this website and started reading your blogs last night. The powers at be in baseball seem to believe that they need to make things more than what they need to be. I couldn’t agree more with the blog. Is baseball itself not enough anymore. Sure the hero’s video was inspiring, but is the game itself not enough anymore. It is all too sad. Politic’s should not be mixed with sports, or even entertainment for that matter as you so eloquently put it, “it divides the room”. Thank you for setting it right, even if only a small percentage of people read this.
What made it sad for me was that when Ted Williams made his ASG appearance, all the players crowded around him like awestruck puppies (and rightly so), and it looked like a few players really wanted to go over to pay respects to Musial, but then they couldn’t. Both Musial and the players got shortchanged, and now it looks like MLB and its current players don’t really care.
(sorry for the repeat if someone already said this…)
Hello Joe,
The column in the Star is…it is the sort of thing I’ve come to expect from you. And what I have come to expect from you is the best sports writing a few times a week. And maybe strike “sports.” And speaking as a Cardinals fan, this was something extra special.
I was also tremendously disappointed by the treatment of Musial. I felt nagged by a missed opportunity that isn’t going to come again. And yet I’m still hesitant to assign blame. Stan’s appearance confirmed the general impression of him of late, which is that he’s not in the best of health, that he’s heading down the last stretch to home plate. What he did manage – to sit in the cart and simply hold the ball out so the president could reach out and take it from him – seemed likely the most he was capable of. Given that, and given his general aversion to being made a big deal of, it’s not unlikely that this was low key because Stan wanted it to be low key. That would be just like him.
In better days he would have whipped out the harmonica, of course…and *then* we would have had some magic, no matter what anyone else had planned. That would have been “wunnerful.” But he’s not been up to that for a while.
Perhaps Obama’s presence would have impinged on Stan’s night no matter what, just as Clinton surely would have taken up some of the space and limelight that was Ted’s in 1999 had he been there. And while I am no fan of Obama, I don’t begrudge him showing up. As you say: When the president comes to your park, take it as the honor it is. Don’t boo. Refrain from applause if you feel you must. Move on. It’s a ballgame, not a campaign rally.
Instead I will only venture one criticism that’s been bouncing around my grey cells for several years. That is to say that I think Taft had the right idea: dignitaries should remain in the stands. Throw the first pitch out from the stands. The field should be for the players: special green magical places where men with extraordinary gifts do some extraordinary things. But Obama is only following a new, more intrusive tradition that’s developed in recent years.
I’m sorry to hear Stan doesn’t want you to write the book. I’d sure love to read it. But like I said: That would be just like him.
@ Jason 57
Frankly? With all the press given to Johnson and Griffey’s achievements, any stadium would have given standing O’s.
I refuse to buy the crap that somehow they are more generous fans in STL.
Perhaps you think that my hometown of Boston wouldn’t have, but I can assure you that even if we don’t like the guy we can enjoy his accomplishment. Yeah, if it was a Yankee player winning the pennant race with his 500th home run or something, there would be boos. But they’d be there in SYL too, if a Cub’s player did the same thing.
I also take exception at the constant labeling of Cards fans as the “smartest fans”.
[...] in the KC Star. Blog post appears to have been deleted, so the link above won’t work. Here’s a new one from Poz at his blog. Related posts:Derrick Goold on UCB Radio HourCountdown to All Star 2009Anti-Izzy part TwoUCB Live [...]
Joe,
You forgot that he won 3 MVPs, ahead of most everyone ever except Barry. And utilizing a stat that I love from baseball-reference.com, Stan is actually 2nd all-time in MVP share behind Barry (who won it 7 times, which is ridiculous so he doesn’t count). Stan was the best, and was recognized as being the best while he played, but he lacks the recognition he deserves. Hey maybe its a Cardinals thing, Rogers Hornsby won the Triple Crown TWICE and isn’t consistently spoken next to Babe Ruth who played in his same era.
I just had an odd thought with all of this back and forth questioning of the St. Louis baseball fandom, etc – most recently now by BoSox followers….
Close your eyes and put Stan The Man with the Red Sox for his entire career and put Teddy Ballgame with the Cardinals for his career….I don’t know how it all would have worked out but it sure would have been a different era in both cities!
Another difference between the Ted Williams moment and Stan the Man is that in 1999 the very best thing that had ever happened to the star-crossed Red Sox was Ted Williams. In contrast, the Cardinals won 3 WS titles with Musial, and 4 more after he retired (including one less than 3 years ago).
On top of this, in Boston Ted Williams was a fixture. He made appearances at charity events, at media events and at games. He was interviewed all the time, his opinion was asked on any and all subjects (and he gladly gave it). He didn’t retire and disappear, slowly to fade from our memories. He was kept alive by the Red Sox and the Boston media.
He was also an American icon, not just a baseball legend. From being a WWII and Korean War fighter pilot, to being a Hemingway-esque fisherman, to being the subject of a John Updike essay, the man was larger than life. In a Red Sox-mad town and media hub like Boston, a guy like that becomes a HUGE star.
Wonderful post Joe, part of what makes me appreciate your writing so much is that I get so much out of it even when I disagree. On the sadness of the moment…I’m with Joe, but I tend to attribute it more to the sadness of age and the faded memories than anything MLB did.
Anyways I’m commenting mostly because 73 demands response. Hornsby doesn’t get the attention of Ruth because he WASN’T BABE RUTH. In his realistic peer group, I’d say he gets about adequate attention, if not too much because of high BA. A guy like Lou Gehrig gets more, but he had the streak and the Yankees and an inspirational story while Hornsby was a generally unpleasant and not all that interesting human being.
But Hornsby gets more press than Tris Speaker, or Eddie Collins, or Grover Cleveland Alexander, or Lefty Grove, or Mel Ott, or Jimmie Foxx I’d say. Probably more than Honus Wagner, who blows him away in terms of quality.
Similarly, we should not let the underratedness of Musial make us go overboard. He was an absolute top-tier, inner circle, borderline top 10 of all time player, and remains an unparallelled gentleman. He was also not as good at playing baseball as Ted Williams, who was in turn not as good at playing baseball as Babe Ruth.
I haven’t read through all the comments here – which makes me wonder why I leave them – but this entry was much stronger than your column. It was outstanding.
Williams also had a fractured relationship with the fans and media. While he made many appearances, advertisements and was well seen, very charitable, etc. By all accounts, he was top athlete, fighter pilot, fisherman, but a media darling or fan pleaser he was not. When he came out in ‘99 in front of the fans this was his chance to acknowledge the fans in a way he did not during his career. Plus, most knew he was sick and that this would be his last appearance.
I get all of this from reading
Hub Fans Bid Kid Adieu
by John Updike
an excerpt:
Though we thumped, wept, and chanted “We want Ted” for minutes after he hid in the dugout, he did not come back. Our noise for some seconds passed beyond excitement into a kind of immense open anguish, a wailing, a cry to be saved. But immortality is nontransferable. The papers said that the other players, and even the umpires on the field, begged him to come out and acknowledge us in some way, but he never had and did not now. Gods do not answer letters.
Haven’t seen anyone else make this comment so I will – maybe someday Kansas City will be known for Joe Posnanski. From far away and only reading Joe’s blog for a short time it seems to me that Musial:Pujols is as McGuff:Posnanski.
Sorry for throwing an SAT question in there.
Musial was truly a great ballplayer – this I know from stats. And he’s truly a great guy, according to those that write/wrote about him.
But I look at this a bit differently. This simply told me that Musial isn’t Williams, and St. Louis isn’t Boston. Sorry. You can say what you want about Musial, what he means to the city, what kind of fans St Louis has, etc. But the fact is, it doesn’t compare to what the Boston fans wanted to do to celebrate Williams.
Bobby Orr got a 7 minute standing ovation. I don’t care if the president, Leonardo da Vinci, and ET were slated to drop the puck 30 seconds after Orr was introduced. He was going to get 7 minutes of deafening cheers, and that’s that.
Beautiful job, Joe, on all counts. Couldn’t agree more (though could not have said it nearly as well).
Joe,
Finally someone writing about Stan Musial’s
oversight when talking about, writing about, thinking,comparing, and listing the greatest players of all time. His stats are obviously worthy, and as you wrote so is his character. I never could understand when all of the All-Century lists came out in 1999-2000 by S.I., ESPN, etc., Stan was never on the BEST of Lists. You said it well. He has been overlooked to the MAX! Thanks for giving him his DUE! ———also, I hope you
get to write the book on Stan the Man someday, I look forward to it.
The President and the All-Star Game.
I attended the game in KC in 1973. At one point during the festivities, a short letter from President Nixon was read over the PA and shown on the scoreboard. As the letter was read, a smattering of boo’s became louder and louder. By the time the announcer was finished, it seemed like the whole stadium was booing. This was in the heart of America, directed at the man who had won an overwhelming victory the previous November. That was when I realized that Richard Nixon would not finish his term.
Thank you Joe for another good one.
Is it true that Stan the Man is afraid of the dark?
I though it was great that BOTH of the two men (President Obama & Stan the Man) were there, they seemed not to mind the other’s presence, hey a little sharing is good ain’t it?
Also, lets factor in the drunkeness factor in relation to cheering.
More Drunker = More Cheering
Boston Fans are more drunker than KC Fans
(Pew Research Center provided the science behind the study)
I was born in northern New England in 1938 and grew up in Red Sox country. At the time they were all playing, there were three superstar baseball players, Musial, Dimaggio and Williams. I think it’s fair to say that during their playing careers, Musial got more respect as a ballplayer than Williams, though maybe less than THE GREAT DIMAGGIO, who played in New York. Certainly he got less press coverage. Dimaggio played in New York, after all and Williams was controversial, but Musial got more MVP votes than either and more black ink in the record books. In those days (and since) there has been more written about how Williams was shortchanged than Musial. Since they quit playing, people have judged their comparative ballplaying ability by what was written about them . If Albert Pujols wants to be respected forty years from now, perhaps he should turn surly. It’s probably not too late.
56: Mikey said at 10:32 am on July 16th, 2009:
I wasn’t at the game but I agree completely with what you wrote.
First point: the NL has not won an ASG this century. Managing the NL was a manager of a first place team, and next to him on the bench was the manager of another first place team. They both know the value of home field advantage in the World Series and have legitimate reasons to try to win the game. And especially in the late innings of a tied ASG, when the bench is getting short and one run will make the difference with Rivera in the bullpen, an intentional walk can really matter. It’s baseball’s fault for making the game matter more to the manager than to some of the players.*
It’s just numbers. It’s not even having to pick a guy from two extra teams. It’s that in the AL, with fewer teams, it’s harder for a team to be completely out of it by the ASG. Right now the AL has zero teams more than 15 games out of first place in their division. The NL has three. The AL has 8 teams within 5 games of their division lead, the NL only 6. In the late innings it seemed like every bench player for the AL was on a team that had some reason to care about winning the game, and lots of guys for the NL knew they weren’t going to the World Series. Although the phenomenon isn’t as common as in football, it’s still true that the team that cares more is likelier to play better and win.
I am a huge fan of Stan Musial. But, and lets be real here, he is unlikely to make many folks (outside of St. Louis) list of three best outfielders of all time. Ruth is going to be in right, Williams in left, and probably Cobb in center, or maybe Mays in center. So Musial missed out on the all century team, but reasonably so. Then there’s the fact that Ted Williams is arguably the best hitting coach of all time, and has written perhaps the best book on how to hit of all time, so his influence on the game continues to this day. I mean, “The Science of Hitting” is still in print, available on Amazon. So players who might not have reason to look up Williams or Musial will have that book as a reason to look up Williams. That in no way diminishes what Musial did as a player, but Williams did more for the game after ending his playing career. That’s why modern players know more about Williams than Musial.
As for Obama, you’re way off base here, almost as off base as you are about omitting Ghostbusters. Baseball has always been tied to sitting presidents. The seventh inning stretch is popularly (but probably innacurately) attributed to President Taft. In this case, baseball tried to force a Musial moment on us, and you cannot force that. I don’t care who threw out the first pitch (my personal choice if Musial Moment was the major goal would be some HOF pitcher who actually faced Stan the Man), you still weren’t going to have the impact of Ted Williams, no matter how carefully you cherry pick your stats. The Cardinals have been a successful franchise with World Series victories scattered throughout their history. In 1999, virtually nobody alive had ever seen the Red Sox win the World Series, and Ted Williams really was all they had to root for (Yaz was great, but nobody’s really going to pick him for their all time team, except for an all time Red Sox team). I mean, most current Cardinals fans would pick Pujols ahead of Musial. But even with their recent titles, no Red Sox gets picked ahead of Williams.
St. L isn’t Boston, eh?…..you’re right, St. L has 3 more WS titles (8 more since the end of the 1918 season), more HoF’s, more retired numbers, etc……you’re right, its NOT Boston! Now, will the Red Sox Nationers please find something else to feel superior about for the next little while and go somewhere else?
Not sure if anyone is still reading this, but I found this to be an interesting discussion and would like to add my 2 cents. Full disclosure: I’m a long-time Cards fan, but I fancy myself as a pretty objective observer. Sorry this turned out so long!
1) Musial: I cringe every time I hear the cry of “east coast bias!” In a way it is analogous to racism; it exists, but is often obscured by needless cries of wolf. However, the Musial case, to me, is a legit example of greatness fading into obscurity due to geography. We’re talking about one of the 10 greatest hitters in the history of the game. Most of those guys are dead (Ruth, Williams, Cobb, Wagner, the underrated Speaker, Gehrig). 1 is in purgatory (Bonds). Of the other 3, Mays was appropriately honored at the 2007 All-Star Game. That leaves Musial and Aaron. Aaron might be underappreciated, but he holds a prominent place in the national sporting conscience as a result of his home run record and everything that went along with it. Left standing is Stan Musial, the beloved St. Louis baseball hero whose prodigious accomplishments weren’t immortalized in literature or song, and who is little known outside of St. Louis (other than to knowledgeable baseball fans). The universal feeling in St. Louis was that the All-Star Game was the chance to give Stan, in poor health, a proper tribute (a send-off of sorts) in front of the country. As the golf cart wheeled him in from the warning track in right, as it has done on so many occasions in recent years (opening days & postseason games, mostly), fans in attendance applauded reverently and politely. Should the ovation have been more thunderous and prolonged? Probably, yes. Looking back, it was no doubt a missed opportunity. But I can tell you; the anticipation was that the “wheel-in” was a preamble to a meaningful tribute. We were expecting a brief video, maybe a rundown of his accomplishments, maybe some player interaction (it wasn’t necessary to try and recreate the spontaneous Williams moment, but come on! There was nothing!), and then he’d get his emotional 7 minute ovation (as he got during last year’s Opening Day). I promise, this was the expectation for every fan at the park. What we got was ultimately a pretty big letdown. Not a tragedy or anything to dwell on forever, just a disappointment worth noting.
2) Best fans in baseball: What started as a cute little anointing by a handful of national media in the late ‘90’s has turned into a nauseating self-congratulatory refrain recycled by local media and the insufferable wing of Cards fans alike (but please, no lectures from Red Sox fans on insufferability!). Cardinals fans are among the great baseball fans, but I certainly wouldn’t coronate them as the best. They leave in the 6th inning on a school night, start the wave in the 8th inning, often sit on their hands in a tight game until the 9th, and the electricity of the crowd has been zapped by a gentrified new stadium. We boo more than people think. It’s certainly not the best IN-GAME crowd. However, I don’t think St. Louis is exceeded as a baseball CITY. Baseball resonates in St. Louis as much or more than it does in any other city–from my 90 year old immigrant grandfather, to my 5 year old nephew who watches every game on TV with his dad. Like football in Pittsburgh, it’s what everyone talks about; at work, at church/temple, with friends and family. Sports talk radio is more often than not consumed by baseball in the winter (maybe that says more about St. Louis as a football city, but it speaks to my point). Like growing up in Green Bay, even the casual fan knows the roster inside and out. Trust me, that is rare. But let’s not sugarcoat all Cards fans. In fact, the Cardinals fan base is a snapshot of what fan bases would look like if baseball remained the most popular sport in America today. The drunken redneck demographic has largely been swallowed up by college and pro football, but not so in Cardinals country. Throughout Cards territory (parts of the Midwest, South and Plains states), the game is woven into the fabric of the wine-and-cheese crowd and mayonnaise sandwich crowd alike. The result isn’t always pretty–ok, it’s too often fat and/or mulleted–but it’s unique and I’m glad to be a part of it.
Come on, Joe. Are you really suggesting that a professional athlete should have preepted the first African American President? If that be the case, then it would be fitting and proper that Heywood Hale Broun replace you.
Great piece that gathered up lots of nagging issues nobody else could express. A couple points regarding some comments:
1. TWICE this season, Boston fans gave returning icon Nomar Garciaparra longer, more spine-tingling ovationsthan Musial received in St. Louis. Bash the Red Sox fans if you want, but they do spine-tingling.
2. Saying Williams was the only good thing Sox fans had going for them up to 1999 is so jaw-droppingly ignorant that it doesn’t require rebuttal. Few fans have seen as many exciting races, big games, big moments and great players as Boston baseball fans.
3. The fans were not making “peace” with Ted Williams in 1999—that’s nonsense. The “making peace” moment came when he returned to Fenway in 1969 as manager of the Senators and finally tipped his hat—to an even greater ovation than he got 30 years later. The Red Sox fans went nuts over him twive more, in the team’s only “Old Timer’s Games.”
3. In the second of those, Smokey Joe Wood, then the oldest Red Sock (he was close to 100) was driven out in the Red Sox Ball-cart to throw out the first pitch. He got a huge ovation, but his throw—they had to put the ball in his fingers—went exactly three inches, and fell to the ground beneath his hand. It was horribly sad (Smokey Joe once won 30 games as a pitcher), and he died a few days later. Be careful what you wish for.
4. Don’t take credit for Williams’ moment away from HIM. He was virtually blind and could barely stand , but threw a pitch without a bounce to Fisk. Reportedly he practiced for days, because he was determined to do it. Williams always had a flair for the dramatic, like his last home-run—that moment wasn’t engineered. Ted made it. And unlike Musial, he loved the spotlight, and always had the unmeasurable, indefinable quality that makes him outshine everyone else on a field. I don’t think the presence of a president would have over-shadowed TW one bit.
5. Railing about how unfair it is that one player gets more attention and is remembered while another is not is like baying at the moon. Nobody knows why some people ‘pop’ on the movie screen: why was Gary Cooper a superstar and Randolph Scott not? Why did everyone think Don Drysdale was so special and not notice Jim Kaat? I heard a historian complaining the other day that it was “ridiculous” that James K. Polk wasn’t more appreciated than JFK. Well, it’s that pesky “It” factor. Ted had it to the end, for better or worse. Stan never did (and he knew it), and stats had nothing to do with it.
Jack,
I hate to say, what started out as a promising post ended as a typical self-aggrandizing rant. I will give you kudos for your second #3, though. And I agree with #2.
Let’s put this in terms you might understand:
Did Yaz have the”It” factor? Uh, no. But if the All-Star Game is back in Boston in 20 years, and the 18-time All-Star is still with us at 89 years of age, it’s safe to say that Yaz won’t be wheeled in and then cast aside to give George W. Bush an extra minute on the jumbotron. He deserves to be honored, but certainly no more than The Man who far exceeded Yaz in every meaningful offensive category (sans stolen bases and aggregate walks), despite having 1,000 fewer at-bats.
Stan WAS recognized as a superstar in his day, but he isn’t now. Would his legacy be any different if he had an extra 5 minutes of attention on the national stage? Maybe not. But it was a chance to do the right thing and seize the rare opportunity to honor one of the game’s all-time greats in his home park in his final years.
[...] on which side of sports you lived. Detroit was Joe Falls. Kansas City was Joe McGuff. Clevel click for more var _wh = ((document.location.protocol=='https:') ? "https://sec1.woopra.com" : [...]
I can appreciate those who say that the Ted Williams ASG moment was original, but, regardless of that and regardless of Musial’s modesty, it seems like more should have been done for him. I’ll attribute this mostly to the tone-deafness of MLB and also Fox Sports — remember the Ernie Harwell snub in Detroit? The people in charge of the game and the people televising the game simply don’t care enough about it.
And no one here seems to want to bring up politics, so I will. The thought that even a few people still get tingly thinking of George Bush posing in a warm-up jacket and throwing that pitch in the ‘01 Series is truly nauseating. That really was the turning point in the hunt for bin Laden, wasn’t it? Oh that’s right, they couldn’t be bothered with that when there was another unnecessary war to launch and thouands of lives and billions of dollars to squander.
And no, I don’t have any fondness for Obama and his gang of Wall Street ass-kissers. I could just care less how well he or any president living or dead throws a baseball…
[...] Interesting article from Joe Posnaski on the tribute to Stan Musial that wasn’t on last Tuesda… He blames the deicision to have President Obama throw out the first pitch: That said: I know that a sitting president — especially in times like these — inspires strong feelings in people. He does cut the room in half. And that’s not what the All-Star Game should be about. It may have SOUNDED good — the idea of having a sitting president throw out the first pitch — but I thought the execution was lousy.* It felt like the game lost its universal feeling. President Obama — by virtue of his personality, his political views, his various decisions — sparks anger in some, pride in others, disgust in some, hope in others, and none of that has anything to do with the Baseball All-Star Game. [...]
Mike 67: so, so true. This blog might be the most civil one on the Web. Obviously, Joe P. sets the tone, that it largely attracts a KC/Midwest audience is another (I’m in the East, I can’t imagine such civility in a NY or Boston or Philly or DC based site). I avoid referring to it in communications to avoid it becoming sullied.
Mike 80:Bobby Orr is a New England phenomenon. I saw a completely meaningless game back in 81 between the Winnipeg Jets and the Hartford Whalers (complete with bag-wearing fans calling the team the “Ailers”) memorably only for it being Gordie Howe Night. They gave Gordie the usual assortment of gifts, the last being a golf cart. Driven on the ice by Bobby Orr. LONG standing O. THAT was a great moment. To me, he’s hockey’s Musial.
Ditto on the Musial bit.
Although I think it’s worth noting that Musial also threw out the first pitch for Game 5 of the 2006 World Series, and I can tell you personally that the stadium erupted and cheered for several minutes straight. In fact, it only stopped briefly when he sort of fell off the mound after the pitch (when everyone thought he was hurt). Of course, we all went straight back to cheering we noticed (on camera) he was laughing and not hurt at all.
St. Louis does love him, but I agree that he should have been a bigger part of the ceremonies.