Eck vs. Mo: One more thing

Posted: July 3rd, 2009 | Filed under: Baseball | 19 Comments »

While getting ready to watch a little Zack Greinke, here is one more quick thought on Dennis Eckersley and Mariano Rivera …

By request, someone was wondering about how many blown saves Dennis Eckersley had in his five magical years vs. how many blown saves Mariano Rivera had in his prime.

From 1988 to 1992, Eckersley saved 220 games and blew 27 saves, an 89% save percentage.

From 2002 to 2006, Rivera saved 198 and blew 21 saves, a 90% save percentage.

Or if you prefer Rivera’s last five full years, he saved 199 and blew 16 saves, a 93% save percentage.

Not that save percentage is everything — not at all — but it’s probably worth noting that Eckersley had an 89% save percentage for his five BEST years … and Rivera has an 89% save percentage over his ENTIRE CAREER.

Eckersley’s career save percentage is 85%.

Here, by the way, are a few of the great relievers and their save percentages … keep in mind that the older pitchers tended to pitch many more innings in their save opportunities:

Trevor Hoffman: 572 of 640, 89%
Mariano Rivera: 502 of 562, 89%
Troy Percival, 358 of 415, 86%
Dennis Eckersley: 390 of 461, 85%
Randy Myers: 347 of 408, 85%
Tom Henke: 311 of 366, 85%
John Wetteland: 330 of 393, 84%
Jose Mesa: 321 of 383, 84%
Roy Face: 193 of 232, 83%
Lee Smith: 478 of 582, 82%
John Franco: 424 of 525, 81%
Doug Jones: 303 of 381, 80%
Dan Quisenberry: 244 of 305, 80%
Jeff Reardon: 367 of 473, 78%
Rollie Fingers: 341 of 450, 76%
Bruce Sutter: 300 of 401, 75%
Goose Gossage: 310 of 422, 73%

19 Comments on “Eck vs. Mo: One more thing”

  1. 1: Superslick said at 5:17 pm on July 3rd, 2009:

    Hoffman’s baseball card looks pretty amazing too, he coughed up his chance to be in Rivera’s league in the 98 series though, and then again in the last few weeks of the 2007 season.

    I was at the one game playoff when the Padres took a two run lead in the 13th, and then the first four batters for the Rockies in the bottom of the inning hit Hoffman’s offerings off the outfield fence.

    Mariano is the greatest ever.

    Joe, you are the Mariano of sportswriting.

  2. 2: Sweatpants00 said at 5:36 pm on July 3rd, 2009:

    Obviously, save percentage can be misleading. What were their one-run saves VS opportunities? What were their multiple inning saves VS opportunities? What were their multiple inning one-run saves VS opportunities? And of course, who has the biggest balls?

  3. 3: sansho1 said at 5:46 pm on July 3rd, 2009:

    Most surprising stat — Joe Table had 321 saves.

  4. 4: mike said at 6:12 pm on July 3rd, 2009:

    Only because you listed him in the last post: Papelbon with a career 89% in his four-plus years, but that includes 0-for-1 his first season and 85% his second, so I’d say that percentage (and his best five-year stretch) figure to improve if he continues to be used smartly.

  5. 5: AxDxMx said at 11:54 pm on July 3rd, 2009:

    Closers are pointless if you can’t win. At least we could enjoy Soria in the rotation, but Hillman has him stashed in a vault somewhere with a tag that says “Do Not Use”.

  6. 6: Mark W said at 12:26 am on July 4th, 2009:

    When was the term “closer” first used? I really have no idea but was it related to Bobby Thigpen’s phenomenal ‘90 season?

    Who was the manager that first used his closing reliever for only that final inning, normally bringing in his “closer” to start the ninth inning rather than often using his best reliever to get out of a jam in 7th/8th or 9th inning? Who was this specific reliever or were there numerous ones used nearly identically throughout MLB beginning at nearly the same time?

    The younger readers of this blog might be surprised just how much things have changed in the use of a team’s best reliever/closer just in the past 2 decades. Yes, I’m an old codger but I much preferred the old days when the use of a team’s best reliever was not so set in stone. Wilhelm, Face, Sutter, Gossage & Fingers (and many others) would come in and put out a fire in the 7th and come out to pitch the 8th and maybe the 9th. (Back when men were men and the trainers did use leeches and various forms of voodoo to revitalize those tired, dead arms!)

  7. 7: Darren said at 12:34 am on July 4th, 2009:

    Coffee is for closers.

  8. 8: Jeremy said at 11:16 am on July 4th, 2009:

    These overall percentages are slightly misleading for the guys who spent time as middle relievers… seventh and eighth inning guys get blown saves in games in which they weren’t going to get an opportunity to record the save.

  9. 9: Craig Hooten said at 2:24 pm on July 4th, 2009:

    Okay, blown saves is interesting, but a blown save doesn’t necessarily mean he lost the game, it just means he gave up the lead.

    I’m not crazy about W-L but Rivera did lose 8 more games during the stretch.

    Eck was 24-9 in 310 games during his 5 year run.

    Rivera was 22-17 in 317 games during the 5 year span we’re using.

  10. 10: Greg said at 10:43 pm on July 4th, 2009:

    Where’s Monty on this list?

  11. 11: buckweaver said at 3:38 am on July 5th, 2009:

    Mark W:

    The Dickson Baseball Dictionary says the phrase “closing reliever” was used to describe Bruce Sutter in a 1986 USA Today profile. Probably had been used for a short while before that (previously, the term “closer” was used primarily about starting pitchers who often completed games.)

  12. 12: Nick Whitman said at 1:11 pm on July 5th, 2009:

    @Superslick- So, Rivera has never coughed it up in a big spot in the playoffs? Against the Yankees’ most hated division rivals, perhaps? Funny, I could have sworn…

    All kidding aside, saying that Trevor Hoffman isn’t in Rivera’s league because of one inning is absurd. Hoffman is at least as good as Rivera, and if he had played in New York, people would get just as ridiculously hyperbolic about him.

  13. 13: Phil said at 6:06 pm on July 5th, 2009:

    A point I’d like to raise–Mariano has been emblematic of the modern closer in his innings/outing, at least to the best of my knowledge. I believe that it was in the 2008 postseason that a commentator remarked that in a showdown between Papelbon and Mariano, one has to take into account that Papelbon had like six times the amount of saves that went over one inning than Mariano had.

    A guy like Hoffman, I think, had more multiple-inning saves, as did Eck. That definitely should factor into the “greatest ever” argument.

    That being said, Mo and Hoff are tied in my esteem–Mo for being just so dominant, and Hoff because omitting him is like saying that Prince Fielder is currently a better hitter than Albert Pujols; he’s just that good.

    ((Note: Someone will have to check the numbers on the multiple-inning saves. All my information is anecdotal.))

  14. 14: Robert said at 8:33 am on July 6th, 2009:

    @ MARK W— Tony LaRussa was the first manager to use the closer exclusively in the ninth when he was managing the A’s & he had such great success with it, everybody in baseball started doing it that way. Even though nobody else had Dennis Eckersly. I do wish some teams (like the Royals) would go back to the old way even it’s just once in a while, depending on the situation

  15. 15: Rich said at 10:30 am on July 6th, 2009:

    Regular season only:

    Hoffman has appeared in 953 games and pitched 1011.1 innings

    Rivera has appeared in 885 games and pitched in 1058.1 innings.

    If you exclude Rivera’s starts, that becomes 875 and 1008.1.

    So Hoffman has pitched only 3 more innings while appearing in 78 more games. I think its safe to say that Rivera has had more multiple inning saves than Hoffman – by a fair amount.

  16. 16: Rich said at 10:54 am on July 6th, 2009:

    Not to beat a dead horse, but Rivera averages more innings per appearance (in relief) than Papelbon, Hoffman & Eckersley.

  17. 17: Joe R said at 12:22 pm on July 6th, 2009:

    “Most surprising stat — Joe Table had 321 saves.”

    Way more surprising fact: Ichiro would be the Cy Young award winner if he felt motivated enough to grace us with his Nolan Ryan-esque pitching abilities.

    At least this is what ESPN told me right after telling me he could hit 50+ HR if he wanted to for a 768th time.

  18. 18: Matt said at 4:27 pm on July 6th, 2009:

    @Nick Whitman (#12)– “Hoffman is at least as good as Rivera, and if he had played in New York, people would get just as ridiculously hyperbolic about him.”

    While I agree that you can’t hold Hoffman’s postseason failure too much against him, due to lack of opportunity, it’s not right to imply that he (or some other great closer) would have been as great as Rivera if plugged into the same situation.

    Look again at Mo’s postseason career numbers — they are otherworldy (11 total runs allowed in 76 games/ 117 innings over 14 seasons, 0.77 era). Not perfect — yes, he blew 3 saves in 37 opportunities — but unreal considering that virtually every inning was a top-pressure situation. Think of it another way. Rivera has entered 76 postseason games, the Yankees either ahead or tied in nearly all of them. He has 1 loss in those 76 games. (Which of course was 2001 game 7 against Arizona — in both Red Sox 2004 games he kept the game tied after giving up one run to lose the lead.) To compare, in 12 career postseason games Trevor Hoffman lost twice. While with Oakland, Eck lost twice in 17 games.

    I point that out not to diminish Hoffman or Eck, but to highlight just how uniquely astounding Rivera has been in the postseason. That’s not “ridiculously hyperbolic,” that’s the record.

  19. 19: PWHjort said at 4:37 pm on July 6th, 2009:

    I’m actually surprised Franco only blew 101 saves. Not like the save is a relevant stat…

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