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	<title>Comments on: Stupid is &#8230;</title>
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	<description>A Rough Draft Blog</description>
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		<title>By: 7/6/09 -- Kansas City Royals (Meche) vs. Detroit Tigers (Galarraga) -- 7:05 PM - Page 2 - MotownSports.com Message Board</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/07/02/stupid-is/#comment-65022</link>
		<dc:creator>7/6/09 -- Kansas City Royals (Meche) vs. Detroit Tigers (Galarraga) -- 7:05 PM - Page 2 - MotownSports.com Message Board</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 22:23:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/07/02/stupid-is/#comment-65022</guid>
		<description>[...]  [...]</description>
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		<title>By: knifewrench</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/07/02/stupid-is/#comment-65019</link>
		<dc:creator>knifewrench</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 21:50:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/07/02/stupid-is/#comment-65019</guid>
		<description>Hey Fox, while we&#039;re at it, let&#039;s shine some light on the Twins training staff here: Kevin Slowey. Apparently since last year the guy&#039;s wrist has been so sore he has trouble opening doors. So they apparently don&#039;t check this out because the guy was pitching well?

Then last week, the team suddenly pushes Slowey back a couple of days. He starts in St. Louis and gets rocked. Any alarm bells there? No. They give him another start in a big game against Detroit, and he gets pounded again. Now, finally, Slowey goes on the DL.

How is this episode any less negligent than anything the Royals have or haven&#039;t done?

Between this and reading Joe (and Rany), I&#039;m convinced that some big-time journalist should take an in-depth look at the medical care teams provide their players...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Fox, while we&#8217;re at it, let&#8217;s shine some light on the Twins training staff here: Kevin Slowey. Apparently since last year the guy&#8217;s wrist has been so sore he has trouble opening doors. So they apparently don&#8217;t check this out because the guy was pitching well?</p>
<p>Then last week, the team suddenly pushes Slowey back a couple of days. He starts in St. Louis and gets rocked. Any alarm bells there? No. They give him another start in a big game against Detroit, and he gets pounded again. Now, finally, Slowey goes on the DL.</p>
<p>How is this episode any less negligent than anything the Royals have or haven&#8217;t done?</p>
<p>Between this and reading Joe (and Rany), I&#8217;m convinced that some big-time journalist should take an in-depth look at the medical care teams provide their players&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Fox</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/07/02/stupid-is/#comment-64994</link>
		<dc:creator>Fox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 15:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/07/02/stupid-is/#comment-64994</guid>
		<description>I just have to chime in and be 100% honest.

As a Twins fan, I thought everyone knew how bad the training staff for the Royals was.  I didn&#039;t know that this was some sort of secret in Kansas City.  The Twins analysts have been talking about how the injury burnout rate for prospects in Kansas City was a lot higher than with the Twins or other teams.  And you could cite a number of guys who had some success, pitched injured, and were never the same, from Runelvys Hernandez to Jose Rosado and beyond.  Maybe Rany called out the trainer for the first time, but when other teams&#039; announcers are talking about how your team must be doing something wrong because they can&#039;t keep their prospects healthy... maybe you need to start looking at the people you have in charge of keeping them healthy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just have to chime in and be 100% honest.</p>
<p>As a Twins fan, I thought everyone knew how bad the training staff for the Royals was.  I didn&#8217;t know that this was some sort of secret in Kansas City.  The Twins analysts have been talking about how the injury burnout rate for prospects in Kansas City was a lot higher than with the Twins or other teams.  And you could cite a number of guys who had some success, pitched injured, and were never the same, from Runelvys Hernandez to Jose Rosado and beyond.  Maybe Rany called out the trainer for the first time, but when other teams&#8217; announcers are talking about how your team must be doing something wrong because they can&#8217;t keep their prospects healthy&#8230; maybe you need to start looking at the people you have in charge of keeping them healthy.</p>
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		<title>By: Independence Day News, Notes, and Links &#124; Kings of Kauffman &#124; A Kansas City Royals Blog</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/07/02/stupid-is/#comment-64894</link>
		<dc:creator>Independence Day News, Notes, and Links &#124; Kings of Kauffman &#124; A Kansas City Royals Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 00:30:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/07/02/stupid-is/#comment-64894</guid>
		<description>[...] While on the topic of our manager, check out this brilliantly crafted piece by Joe Posnanski titled Stupid is &#8230; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] While on the topic of our manager, check out this brilliantly crafted piece by Joe Posnanski titled Stupid is &#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Updates on Robertson, Guillen and Bondo - MotownSports.com Message Board</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/07/02/stupid-is/#comment-64803</link>
		<dc:creator>Updates on Robertson, Guillen and Bondo - MotownSports.com Message Board</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:04:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/07/02/stupid-is/#comment-64803</guid>
		<description>[...]  [...]</description>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/07/02/stupid-is/#comment-64764</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 05:47:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/07/02/stupid-is/#comment-64764</guid>
		<description>Good lord, did people seriously think Rany was banned from the stadium?

Like they were going put up posters of him at all the entrances that said &quot;NO ADMITTANCE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good lord, did people seriously think Rany was banned from the stadium?</p>
<p>Like they were going put up posters of him at all the entrances that said &#8220;NO ADMITTANCE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Aronson</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/07/02/stupid-is/#comment-64759</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Aronson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 05:24:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/07/02/stupid-is/#comment-64759</guid>
		<description>About pitch counts and Gil Meche: unless you&#039;re a sidewinder like Quiz or Tekulve, there is nothing in nature that prepared you to throw a baseball.  If you are in a human body that evolved to eat some meat, and you get meat by throwing rocks at smaller critters, you&#039;re not going to take a big windup and leg kick.  In the time it takes you to do that, the rabbit has ducked down a hole, the squirrel has hidden in the Mississippi revival tent.  You might gain an extra 10 mph on your fast ball, but your family is going hungry tonight.  It&#039;s only in the artificial constructs of baseball, where the wily batter is forced by the rules to stand at a fixed position, that doing whatever is possible to get that extra 10 mph is worthwhile.  And we haven&#039;t been playing baseball long enough for it to have an evolutionary effect on the human shoulder.

The reason why almost every team uses pitch counts is because for most pitchers, they work.  And most pitchers are not what I&#039;d call kinesthesiological geniuses.  They know that getting another contract depends on pitching a lot in this contract.  They have only their own knowledge of their arm to distinguish between a slightly tired arm or slightly strained shoulder than can be pitched through, and a ligament or labrum on the edge of rest versus surgery.

In all the time I&#039;ve followed baseball, there are only two pitchers that really impressed me with their knowledge of how the body works, impressed me as much as my father (a doctor) did.  Mike Marshall, who won a Cy Young award in relief pitching every day (and IIRC is still mostly ignored by baseball orthodoxy for outlandish theories, advanced degree or no advanced degree) and Greg Maddux.  That&#039;s not meant to criticize guys like Mike Maddux and Rick Honeycutt, or even Sandy Koufax, who arguably got a higher percentage out of his talent than any other pitcher, and did it with near constant pain of an arthritic elbow.  But only MM and GM impressed me (as an outsider) to the point where I&#039;d believe they really understand how somebody else&#039;s pitching arm is working.

What happened to Gil Meche was wrong.  Nolan Ryan is wrong.  How many pitchers have the all time record in strikeouts?  That would be one.  Ryan is an expert on Ryan, but nobody else ever pitched like Ryan.  He&#039;s too good, too conditioned by being Nolan Ryan, to fully understand the normal major league pitcher.  Even Ryan&#039;s workout regimen, IIRC, was rather outlandish, and involved a LOT of heavy leg lifting on the ranch in the off season.  Steve Carlton also had a crazy workout regimen.  But you know, I don&#039;t think working out is enough.  If it was, there are plenty of AAA pitchers who would like to have financial security who would work out insanely much.  I think that most pitchers try to get in shape, and only the very best can withstand that much effort.

There has been no team that that adhered so diligently to pitch counts than the Bobby Cox Braves.  They are also the closest thing to a pitching dynasty in a lot of years.  Maybe they could have let Maddux and Glavine throw more pitches.  But when they first became really good, they had Avery, who was pretty well washed up by the time he reached 30, and Smoltz has had his injuries (and a stint in the bullpen).  Aside from knuckle ballers, I&#039;d stick to a strict pitch count.

It&#039;s worse with the Royals.  You&#039;d have to be blind to think they are going to hit enough to make the playoffs, barring the sudden arrival of Ted Williams as their hitting coach.  They&#039;re 10 games out of first, their shortstop may be out for the season if not his career, and one of my top starters has been achy, I&#039;m not giving him two days off and then throwing him 121 pitches.  Of course he&#039;s a warrior: how many zeroes were in the last contract he signed?  So the manager has to be smart for him.  I&#039;m skipping his spot in the rotation, and if he doesn&#039;t feel 100% next time out BEFORE the game, I&#039;ll put him on the 15 day DL knowing I have the All Star Break coming up to give him a chance to fully heal without costing us an extra start.
The Royals seem to be a team with a mandate: make the playoffs of the manager gets fired.  And the manager is thus managing to the assumptions that there is in this team enough talent to get him to the playoffs, and is managing to the assumptions, not to the roster.  This is why I&#039;ll never agree that Pete Rose belongs in the HOF; a biased manager can ruin pitcher&#039;s careers.  I *think* Hillman is acting like a biased manager.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About pitch counts and Gil Meche: unless you&#8217;re a sidewinder like Quiz or Tekulve, there is nothing in nature that prepared you to throw a baseball.  If you are in a human body that evolved to eat some meat, and you get meat by throwing rocks at smaller critters, you&#8217;re not going to take a big windup and leg kick.  In the time it takes you to do that, the rabbit has ducked down a hole, the squirrel has hidden in the Mississippi revival tent.  You might gain an extra 10 mph on your fast ball, but your family is going hungry tonight.  It&#8217;s only in the artificial constructs of baseball, where the wily batter is forced by the rules to stand at a fixed position, that doing whatever is possible to get that extra 10 mph is worthwhile.  And we haven&#8217;t been playing baseball long enough for it to have an evolutionary effect on the human shoulder.</p>
<p>The reason why almost every team uses pitch counts is because for most pitchers, they work.  And most pitchers are not what I&#8217;d call kinesthesiological geniuses.  They know that getting another contract depends on pitching a lot in this contract.  They have only their own knowledge of their arm to distinguish between a slightly tired arm or slightly strained shoulder than can be pitched through, and a ligament or labrum on the edge of rest versus surgery.</p>
<p>In all the time I&#8217;ve followed baseball, there are only two pitchers that really impressed me with their knowledge of how the body works, impressed me as much as my father (a doctor) did.  Mike Marshall, who won a Cy Young award in relief pitching every day (and IIRC is still mostly ignored by baseball orthodoxy for outlandish theories, advanced degree or no advanced degree) and Greg Maddux.  That&#8217;s not meant to criticize guys like Mike Maddux and Rick Honeycutt, or even Sandy Koufax, who arguably got a higher percentage out of his talent than any other pitcher, and did it with near constant pain of an arthritic elbow.  But only MM and GM impressed me (as an outsider) to the point where I&#8217;d believe they really understand how somebody else&#8217;s pitching arm is working.</p>
<p>What happened to Gil Meche was wrong.  Nolan Ryan is wrong.  How many pitchers have the all time record in strikeouts?  That would be one.  Ryan is an expert on Ryan, but nobody else ever pitched like Ryan.  He&#8217;s too good, too conditioned by being Nolan Ryan, to fully understand the normal major league pitcher.  Even Ryan&#8217;s workout regimen, IIRC, was rather outlandish, and involved a LOT of heavy leg lifting on the ranch in the off season.  Steve Carlton also had a crazy workout regimen.  But you know, I don&#8217;t think working out is enough.  If it was, there are plenty of AAA pitchers who would like to have financial security who would work out insanely much.  I think that most pitchers try to get in shape, and only the very best can withstand that much effort.</p>
<p>There has been no team that that adhered so diligently to pitch counts than the Bobby Cox Braves.  They are also the closest thing to a pitching dynasty in a lot of years.  Maybe they could have let Maddux and Glavine throw more pitches.  But when they first became really good, they had Avery, who was pretty well washed up by the time he reached 30, and Smoltz has had his injuries (and a stint in the bullpen).  Aside from knuckle ballers, I&#8217;d stick to a strict pitch count.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s worse with the Royals.  You&#8217;d have to be blind to think they are going to hit enough to make the playoffs, barring the sudden arrival of Ted Williams as their hitting coach.  They&#8217;re 10 games out of first, their shortstop may be out for the season if not his career, and one of my top starters has been achy, I&#8217;m not giving him two days off and then throwing him 121 pitches.  Of course he&#8217;s a warrior: how many zeroes were in the last contract he signed?  So the manager has to be smart for him.  I&#8217;m skipping his spot in the rotation, and if he doesn&#8217;t feel 100% next time out BEFORE the game, I&#8217;ll put him on the 15 day DL knowing I have the All Star Break coming up to give him a chance to fully heal without costing us an extra start.<br />
The Royals seem to be a team with a mandate: make the playoffs of the manager gets fired.  And the manager is thus managing to the assumptions that there is in this team enough talent to get him to the playoffs, and is managing to the assumptions, not to the roster.  This is why I&#8217;ll never agree that Pete Rose belongs in the HOF; a biased manager can ruin pitcher&#8217;s careers.  I *think* Hillman is acting like a biased manager.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark W</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/07/02/stupid-is/#comment-64758</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 04:35:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/07/02/stupid-is/#comment-64758</guid>
		<description>Perhaps some people in the Royals&#039; front office took notice how the Obama Admin is beginning to handle those members of the media that have the audacity to question the Supreme Leader.... If/When Moore, Hillman and the gang hold a Town Hall Meeting in the near future out in Blue Springs and the only acceptable questions are from texting nine year olds wishing to add another sno-cone flavor at the snack bar or from snail-mail letter writing grandmothers worried about the price of said sno-cones  - Then I&#039;ll know for sure that things around the KC stadium aren&#039;t on the up and up.

Is it true that the pigeon from Cleveland was seen working out with a glove in CF next to Coco earlier this week?  Word is he has a pretty strong wing, especially as compared to Coco&#039;s. Reportedly, he also can really fly....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps some people in the Royals&#8217; front office took notice how the Obama Admin is beginning to handle those members of the media that have the audacity to question the Supreme Leader&#8230;. If/When Moore, Hillman and the gang hold a Town Hall Meeting in the near future out in Blue Springs and the only acceptable questions are from texting nine year olds wishing to add another sno-cone flavor at the snack bar or from snail-mail letter writing grandmothers worried about the price of said sno-cones  &#8211; Then I&#8217;ll know for sure that things around the KC stadium aren&#8217;t on the up and up.</p>
<p>Is it true that the pigeon from Cleveland was seen working out with a glove in CF next to Coco earlier this week?  Word is he has a pretty strong wing, especially as compared to Coco&#8217;s. Reportedly, he also can really fly&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Snowman</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/07/02/stupid-is/#comment-64754</link>
		<dc:creator>Snowman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 04:08:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/07/02/stupid-is/#comment-64754</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve always thought of Philadelphia doing things like this.  I can&#039;t remember most of the instances now, but there was a period in the late nineties or early oughts where it seemed like once a year there was a crazy injury story out of one of the Philly sports teams.

One of them was a hockey player who had broken ribs and a punctured lung.  The team doctor told him he was okay, he ignored him and went to the ER, and they found it there.  Apparently the team was supposed to be getting on a plane at the time of he was in the ER, and going up with a punctured lung could have potentially endangered his life.

But the one I remember best is Garrett Stephenson.  Stephenson had had a decent year for the Phils, and then the very next season he suddenly fell apart after an ankle injury.  He kept saying something was wrong, that his ankle was still hurting, and the Phillies docs kept saying he was fine.  Eventually Curt Schilling called him out in the press, the comments were played and printed everywhere (with the word &#039;pussy&#039; edited out, of course), and next thing you knew the Phils traded him to the Cards to placate Schilling.  And the Cards&#039; docs found (if memory serves) two torn tendons in the ankle he had been saying was hurt the entire time.  A quick offseason surgery, and the Cards got a couple more average-ish years out of him before his career ended.

This is not a club you want to join, Kansas City.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve always thought of Philadelphia doing things like this.  I can&#8217;t remember most of the instances now, but there was a period in the late nineties or early oughts where it seemed like once a year there was a crazy injury story out of one of the Philly sports teams.</p>
<p>One of them was a hockey player who had broken ribs and a punctured lung.  The team doctor told him he was okay, he ignored him and went to the ER, and they found it there.  Apparently the team was supposed to be getting on a plane at the time of he was in the ER, and going up with a punctured lung could have potentially endangered his life.</p>
<p>But the one I remember best is Garrett Stephenson.  Stephenson had had a decent year for the Phils, and then the very next season he suddenly fell apart after an ankle injury.  He kept saying something was wrong, that his ankle was still hurting, and the Phillies docs kept saying he was fine.  Eventually Curt Schilling called him out in the press, the comments were played and printed everywhere (with the word &#8216;pussy&#8217; edited out, of course), and next thing you knew the Phils traded him to the Cards to placate Schilling.  And the Cards&#8217; docs found (if memory serves) two torn tendons in the ankle he had been saying was hurt the entire time.  A quick offseason surgery, and the Cards got a couple more average-ish years out of him before his career ended.</p>
<p>This is not a club you want to join, Kansas City.</p>
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		<title>By: mike</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/07/02/stupid-is/#comment-64750</link>
		<dc:creator>mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 01:15:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/07/02/stupid-is/#comment-64750</guid>
		<description>All the Red Sox fans reading about Meche&#039;s outing thank you for exacerbating our post-2003-ALCS stress syndrome.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All the Red Sox fans reading about Meche&#8217;s outing thank you for exacerbating our post-2003-ALCS stress syndrome.</p>
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