Lefty
Posted: June 4th, 2009 | Filed under: Baseball | 52 Comments »
Underrated is a Zen place to be. What I mean by that is you can only be underrated for as long as people do not notice that you are underrated. Once someone starts calling you underrated, you begin to lose your footing. When enough people start calling you underrated, you stop being underrated. And when you become known as the “most underrated anything,” well, the jig is up.
Take Adrian Gonzalez. I would say there’s a pretty good chance that at this exact moment in time he’s the most underrated player in baseball. He has put up a 125 OPS+ each of the last three years without too many people noticing. He has averaged 30 home runs per year even though he plays half his games in a stadium about the size of Greenland — he’s hit two thirds of those homers on the road. He has won a Gold Glove. He seems to play the game hard, if you are the type to measure those sorts of things.
Since the beginning of the 2007 season:
Player A: .282/.362/.527 with 88 homers, 262 RBIs, 139 OPS+.
Player B: .294/.368/.517 with 68 homers, 287 RBIs, 137 OPS+.
Player C: .260/.361/.565 with 110 homers, 325 RBIs, 134 OPS+
Player A is Adrian Gonzalez. Player B is Justin Morneau. Player C is Ryan Howard.
Let’s just say, for argument’s sake, that Gonzalez is the most underrated player in baseball. Well, now Gonzalez is having a huge year. Huge. Leading baseball in home runs. And a bunch of people write about it. “Adrian Gonzalez: Underrated Star!” More people write about it. Someone says something on television: “It’s ridiculous how little acclaim Adrian Gonzalez gets! Guy’s the most underrated player in the game.” People start bringing signs to the ballpark: “Yo Adrian! We Don’t Underrate You!“ And soon, it’s like “It’s A Wonderful Life:” Every time Gonzalez rings the bell, Adrian gets called underrated.
And that’s the end of that. Once someone becomes known as wildly underrated, once that becomes his reputation, well, the whole thing just seems silly.
You will ask why I bring this up. Well, here’s why: I think Lefty Grove is the most underrated player in baseball history. Why? Because he’s the one player I know who is permanently underrated. It doesn’t matter how many people point out that he might be the best pitcher in baseball history. It doesn’t matter how many times you point out his preposterous numbers. It doesn’t matter. He stays in the shadows of baseball history.
Here are the latest results from an ESPN poll on the best left-handed pitcher of all time (pointed out by brilliant reader Mickey):
1. Sandy Koufax, 58%
2. Randy Johnson, 20%
3. Warren Spahn, 9%
4. Steve Carlton, 8%
5. Lefty Grove, 5%
Now, look, all five of those pitchers were great. And this is not a poll of baseball experts of anything, this is everyone — hardcore baseball fans, softcore baseball fans (?), people who think every fly ball is a home run, people who scream balk when a pitcher whirls to throw to second, kids who have been following baseball since May of 2007, people who have not seen a baseball game since 1973 and wonder why there aren’t be more players like Felix Millan.
And so, you can understand the results. Koufax has become mythical. Unit is about to win 300. Spahn is the answer to the trivia question, Which lefty won the most games? Carlton, well, he was called “Lefty” and he played more recently and more people have probably heard of him than Grove. Which is bloody remarkable, I would just like to point out:
Steve Carlton: .574 winning percentage, 115 ERA+.
Lefty Grove: .680 winning percentage, 148 ERA+.
That doesn’t seem especially close, does it? Carlton was a great pitcher, no doubt, but this is a bit like someone asking for the best lefty hitters ever, and someone picking Rod Carew over Babe Ruth.
The thing about Grove is not just that he’s better than anyone on the list. He beats all of them at their own game. What I mean is, well, Steve Carlton is probably best known for his amazing 1972 season, when he won 27 games for a last place team. It’s one of the greatest seasons in baseball history: Most wins, best ERA, most strikeouts, best ERA+, best strikeout to walk ratio. Incredible.
Well, Grove probably had two or three years that were better than that. Take 1930 — which was not Grove’s best season — he had the most wins, best ERA, most strikeouts, best ERA+, best strikeout to walk ratio, best WHIP and, oh yeah, he also led the league in saves. I realize it was a different era, and saves were not even a statistic. However, I would like to say that again: He also led the league in saves.
Sandy Koufax is known for his great peak from 1963-66. And it was remarkable. He had a 1.86 ERA over those four years, and had more strikeouts than innings pitched. But, you have to point out that he was pitching in one of the greatest pitching parks ever, from a mound roughly the height of the Chrysler Building, in the greatest pitcher time since Deadball.
Truth is, Grove’s peak from 1929-1932 might have been even better.
Koufax: 92-27, .782 winning percentage, 1.86 ERA, 1,192 innings, 1,228 Ks, 172 ERA+.
Grove: 104-25, .806 winning percentage, 2.56 ERA, 1,146 innings, 742 Ks, 176 ERA+.
You will notice that Grove’s ERA is quite a bit higher, but his ERA+ is better and his winning percentage is better. That’s because he pitched in a hitters’ ballpark in a hitters’ era. But here’s the truly amazing thing: While those four years more or less make up Koufax’s career, Grove went 24-8 the year BEFORE his peak, and he went 24-8 the year AFTER his peak.
Spahn’s calling card was durability and his ability to win games. He won 20 or more game an amazing 13 times. Incredible. But here’s how many times he won more than 23 games in a season: Zero. Grove did it five times.
Spahn was an amazing old pitcher — from age 35 to 42 he won 167 games with a 119 ERA+.
Grove, from ages 35-39, reinvented himself as a pitcher. And he went 83-41 with a 174 ERA. Think about that for a minute … for those five years, as an old pitcher, Grove had a better ERA+ than Sandy Koufax’s peak.
Finally, there’s Randy Johnson, who I think has his own case as the greatest pitcher. Great peak, great career, durable pitcher, there with Nolan and Pedro as greatest strikeout starter ever. Grove, though, has a better ERA, better ERA+, better win percentage, and so on.
Here’s one: Randy Johnson won four ERA titles. Warren Spahn won three ERA titles. Steve Carlton won one ERA title. Lefty Grove won more than all three put together. He won nine ERA titles.
Here’s one: Lefty Grove went 31-4 in 1931 — he’s the only lefty since 1900 to win 30 games. But as mentioned, he won 28 games the year before that — none of the other four lefties won 28 games in a season.
Here’s one: In 1928, when Grove was a ferocious strikeout pitcher, he struck out the side on nine pitches. Twice. Koufax and Nolan Ryan are the only other two men to pull the trick twice … but they didn’t do it in the same year.
Here’s one: Lefty Grove had ELEVEN seasons where he had a 150 ERA+ or better. Nobody else has had even 10. Koufax had four; Spahn had two, Carlton had five — so if you add up those three, yeah, you get to Lefty Grove.
And so on. Here’s another thing about Grove: He did not pitch in the big leagues until he was 25. People will talk about how good Koufax would have been had he not retired at age 30, and it’s true. But what if Grove had come up at 21 or 22? He signed with the Baltimore Orioles, then a minor league team, in 1920, and for the next five years he was probably already the best pitcher in the world. But the Orioles owner would not sell him to the big leagues*. Grove won exactly 300 games … but how many would he have won had he come up to the big leagues two or three years earlier?
*Wouldn’t it be great if some minor league team simply refused to let a player go to the big leagues today. LIke, say the owner of the Norfolk Tides said, “Uh, nope, we’re not letting Matt Wieters go.” I realize that the minor leagues don’t have anything like that sort of power now, but I wish some crazed minor league owner would try it in some sort of Dog Day Afternoon desperation move.
It’s always hard comparing players of different eras. Grove played in that era before Jackie Robinson. But he also played in an era of preposterous offensive numbers. He played in an era with limited travel. But he also played in an era of day games. He played in an era before intense media scrutiny, which is probably good because by all accounts Lefty Grove was one mean son-of-a-gun.
Bill James, in his Baseball Abstract, ranked Grove the second best pitcher in baseball history behind Walter Johnson. But he made the point that by other measurements, Grove could certainly be considered No. 1 too. Since then, Greg Maddux has won his 300th game, Roger Clemens has won his 300th game, Randy Johnson is about to win his 300th game and Pedro Martinez finished off the greatest peak, I think, in baseball history. So it’s hard to find Grove’s place.
But if people keep insisting on looking back on baseball history as one long continuum — if people keep insisting that Babe Ruth is the greatest baseball player ever, Ted Williams the greatest pure hitter ever,
Joe DiMaggio a player of incomparable grace … well, it seems to me that Lefty Grove should finish better than fifth in a poll of greatest lefties ever.
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Circle me Bert
That’s just depressing. I think you could flip #5 and #1, and the list would be about right.
My dad, just recently passed @ 95 years. When I was a kid he would always interject something about Lefty Grove – obviously one of his favorites- and maybe the best Lefty of all time.
A bio of Grove that I read provided some evidence that Connie Mack spotted Grove against weak teams; he pitched comparatively little against the Yankees, for instance. And Mack’s habit of using his top starters (Grove, Bender, etc.) in relief also throws comparisons wth later lefties into uncertain territory.
I’m legitimately surprised to find how few people have struck out the side on 9 pitches multiple times. Only three people have done it twice?
I wouldn’t take very seriously any online poll, and this one is no exception.
Grove is probably the greatest left-hander ever.
But…there’s also a fair amount of evidence, mostly dug up by the late Dick Thompson, that Connie Mack did not pitch Grove against the Yankees as often as his other starters during the 1929-31 period. For instance, according to the indispensable Retrosheet, Grove started eight games against last-place Boston in 1929, more than any other team.
Rob Neyer has mentioned this as well:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=neyer_rob&id=1704222
On the other hand, as Bill James pointed out, Grove spent several years in the minors when he was clearly better than most major-league pitchers of the time.
It doesn’t mean that Grove isn’t the best lefty of all time, just that the margin may not be so large between him and the rest.
thanks for posting about this. my grandfather always liked the players from those ’30s A’s teams… Jimmie Foxx was his all-time favorite player and Grove was the best pitcher in his eyes.
I remember always using both of them when playing my dad’s old APBA baseball game and usually winning with both of them having ridiculous outings.
I certainly agree that Grove probably doesn’t get the credit he deserves.
Wonderful piece, Mr. Posnanski. Convincing argument, though, as you said, it’s just really difficult to compare eras as other commenters have stated.
What is a joy is to read such phrases as: “Now, look, all five of those pitchers were great. And this is not a poll of baseball experts of anything, this is everyone — hardcore baseball fans, softcore baseball fans (?), people who think every fly ball is a home run, people who scream balk when a pitcher whirls to throw to second, kids who have been following baseball since May of 2007, people who have not seen a baseball game since 1973 and wonder why there aren’t be more players like Felix Milan.”
And the post beginning with the wonderful observation about being “underrated” was just perfect.
My dad is from Camden (NJ) and he’s always loved those A’s teams. There is something mysterious about them and connie mac. it helps that they dont exist in town anymore(despite still having won more than the phillies), and the pictures are always black and white. and they were good, and the were awful, and mac wore that hat. In the end though, i have those baseball team roster pictures that every team does, and its in black and white, and it looks like one day jack nicholson’s face is going to appear in it like it did in that picutre in the Shining.
Joe Posnanski: The most underrated sportswriter on the interwebs.
It’s an ESPN poll. It’s a good thing Whitey Ford wasn’t in the poll, because then Grove would have finished sixth. And a few of the Grove voters probably thought they were voting for Lefty Gomez.
This is what is so wonderful about having someone like Joe Pos writing for us at the KC Star! I would have NEVER known this about Lefty Grove had someone not sat down and done this research and gave it to us descriptively, instead of just posturing and giving us biased and deadpan opinions.
A year or so ago I read an article that claimed the most underrated superstar player in baseball history was Mel Ott. I cannot recall the author or where I saw it, but remember he made a pretty good case and gave a reasonable explanation for why Ott is often forgotten when people list their “greatest ever players”. As I recall, he began the article citing Musial as living in the shadows but thought Ott was even more overlooked.
“He signed with the Baltimore Orioles, then a minor league team, in 1920, and for the next five years he was probably already the best pitcher in the world. But the Orioles owner would not sell him to the big leagues*. Grove won exactly 300 games … but how many would he have won had he come up to the big leagues two or three years earlier?”
Isn’t this exactly what the Red Sox are doing with Clay Buchholz? Wouldn’t he be a #2-4 (or a #1 for the Nationals) for the other 29 teams, but instead is burning up his arm in the minors?
The corollary is of course, that the more a player is called ‘overrated’, the less overrated he becomes. I’m looking at you, Derek Jeter. It’s possible that Jeter is the most underrated player in the stats community and the most overrated player in the general public.
Joe,
I can’t read the last line in your first paragraph without thinking of Gregory Hines in History of the World: Part 1.
So how well DId Grove pitch for Baltimore. He was 108 – 36 (12-2; 25-10; 18-8; 27-10; 26-6), with a 2.96 ERA (BaseballReverence.com). If we assume he would have won only 60% as many games in the majors, that would be 65 more wins, and Spahn would be the #2 lefty in wins…of course, this is only idle speculation on my part.
Adrian Gonzales is definitely the Player Everyone Agrees is the Most Underrated, which is an oxymoronic title if there ever was one.
For a few years earlier this decade that title was held by Bobby Abreu when he was in Philadelphia. Then he went to New York, where by definition no player can be underrated.
…And Lefty Grove probably didn’t have a split finger fastball at his disposal.
I think many readers “rate” Gonzalez correctly… It is being underhyped or overhyped that we are discussing here, and most media outlets choose to expose Ryan Howard more than Adrian Gonzalez. If the Padres fielded a more appealing team, Steve Phillips and Joe Morgan would have picked Gonzalez’ game apart and he would be “overrated”.
PSA
Fresno Grizzlies (Pacific Coast League)
As Seen on TV Night with Shammy Cloth Giveaway, June 6
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Another fine article. And I’ve long agreed with you that Lefty Grove is the best left handed pitcher (if not best pitcher period) of all time. But I must take exception to your statement that Koufax’s career was more or less 1963-1966. In 1962, Koufax was 14-7 and led the league in WHIP at 1.0386. Because of injuries, he only started 26 games that season, but still: 14-7 and league leading in WHIP is mighty good. In 1961, Koufax was 18-13 and broke the National League’s single season record for strikeouts. Note also that in 1961 he was playing in the Los Angeles Coliseum, which may have been the worst ball park of all time for left handed pitchers with the insanely short left field porch leading to the moon shots*. He had an ERA+ of 135 his rookie season, and three other seasons with ERA+ above 100, before he was finally given a secure spot in the starting rotation.
Left field in the Coliseum ran from 250 feet in the corner to 320 feet in left center. The 40 foot screen merely meant that a lot of easy outs in any other ball park became ground rule doubles, if not home runs. Note that Fenway park, which is considered to be perhaps the best hitters park of all time now that they’re humidoring the baseballs in Coors Field, is at least 50 feet further to the Green Monster. Even Ebbets Field, which was considered to be quite the hitters park, started at 340 feet down the left field line. In 1961, for example, Koufax’s tOPS+ at home was 115; away was 83. For his career, he actually threw more innings and started more games on the road. So while Koufax certainly benefited from playing in Dodger Stadium his last five seasons, his first seven were played in parks that definitely hurt him.
I also think Alston resented the bonus baby, so he ignored Koufax until he had no choice. Alston didn’t understand that young pitchers need consistency and patience to develop. Given that Koufax also was an All-Star and got MVP votes in both 1961 and 1962, I think you have to extend Koufax’s career back at least that far.
When he was a kid, my Grandfather caddied for Lefty Grove, who was then near the end of his career with the Red Sox. He swears up and down that Grove was a lousy tipper and kind of an asshole.
Man, he could pitch though.
The analogy that Deacon Drake draws between Lefty Grove on the Orioles and Clay Buchholz on the PawSox is not quite there. First, Boston has control over Buchholz, not Pawtucket. Second, and for the reason I just cited, its pretty unlikely that Buchholz will pitch in Pawtucket for five years at this level.
In his Historical Baseball Abstract, Bill James has a number of essays about minor league baseball up until the majors made them completely “vassal”. The old Orioles were one of these teams, and if the rest of the International League had not caved to the majors, Jack Dunn would have kept Grove longer. He had Babe Ruth about ten years before he had Grove, and the only reason he sold Ruth was competition from the Federal League.
Milan is a bustling city in northern Italy.
Felix Millan was a fair-to-middlin’ infielder with the Mets and Braves.
Of course, I think the biggest factor in the underrating of Lefty Grove is the same reason we don’t hear a lot of stories about Mule Haas, Maxie Bishop, Al Simmons, Mickey Cochrane and even Jimmie Foxx. Because all of those guys did their best work with a team that doesn’t exist anymore.
There just aren’t any more Philadelphia A’s fans out there, and haven’t been for 50 years. Hard to celebrate great players when the team has moved twice since then.
The A’s are the great forgotten franchise of the American League. Of course their lows have been really low, (from 1915-1925, from 1933 to when they moved to Oakland and a few times since), but when it came to the ultimate prize, winning pennants and WS, they are the second best team in the AL. 6 pennants and 3 WS championships in the first 14 years of the AL. Another 3 pennants and 2 WS championships from 1929-1931. 5 straight division titles with 3 pennants and 3 WS championships in the 70s. 3 straight pennants and a WS in the late 80s, early 90s. And 5 playoff appearances in 7 years from 2000-2006. 15 pennants and 9 WS championships. That is still 2nd in the AL in both categories (given the RS recent success and the vastly superior winning % the RS have overall, it would be hard to say that the A’s are the better franchise now)
Hey – I always scream balk when the pitcher whirls to throw to second. Of course, sometimes I scream “Penalty Shot!” instead, so…
*Wouldn’t it be great if some minor league team simply refused to let a player go to the big leagues today. LIke, say the owner of the Norfolk Tides said, “Uh, nope, we’re not letting Matt Wieters go.”
OK, I’ve just got to chime in here. It just so happens that I know the owner of the Tides fairly well. Seriously. And, he’s WAY too nice of a guy, and way to much of a baseball guy, to ever do this. I’m just saying. I feel I have to defend him.
Besides, he also owns a team in Albuquerque, and he renamed them “The Isotopes.” “Simpsons” fans, rejoice!
The Athletics, though gone for 50-plus years, still own more championships than any other Philadelphia team …
I have seen a lot of games since but still fondly remember Felix Millan, my favorite Met from the pennant-winning 1973 season: choking up what seemed to be almost half the bat to ensure he made contact, only 22 KOs in 699 PAs (638 ABs), hit .290 — OK, he only had a .332 OBP and .685 OPS — but what did I (we all) know, I was only 12 and it was 1973.
My grandmother from Baltimore always said she went on a date with Lefty Grove. She told other tales as well, but according to her as a young man, Mr. Grove was a better pitcher than he was a gentleman.
From 1925-29, Grove pitched 217 innings against the Yankees (out of 1,253). That is 17.3% of the total. His ERA against them was 3.94 (overall it was 3.09). 179 is 1/7 of 1,253, so Grove pitched 38 “extra” innings against the Yankees then. I think we would have to see his career totals against all teams to really know how much he was helped by avoiding the Yankees.
Go to
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/G/Lgrovl1010.htm
Someone mentioned that he often pitched in relief. Alot of good starters did so back then
I did a couple of articles on the best 5 year pitching performances. Different 5 year periods by Grove almost always comes out on top. In fact, he often has two completely distinct 5 year periods in the leaders
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/story/2006/5/1/94552/53377
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/story/2006/7/17/9537/72813
Here are 2 other articles I wrote that show how good Grove was
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/story/2006/6/2/104946/4377
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/story/2006/8/4/81713/24146
Most under-rated players ever would be a good article or poll.
My short list includes Grove, Foxx, Musial, Berra, and (in that his home runs have now over-shawdowed everything else) Aaron. My over-rated list would include Clemente (aka Halo Effect), Piazza, Rose, and virtually all modern closers.
Side note: for too many people, “all time” only means “what I have seen.” this is true of Around the Horn, MTV, and far too many other to mention.
Brent (#26):
Happily, there are more Philadelphia A’s fans out there than you think.
Check out the Philadelphia A’s Historical Society at http://www.philadelphiaathletics.org.
My favorite page is the one about the history of the famed White Elephant.
MattD @24:
Bill James’ opinion on the minor leagues, and his feelings on the vassalization of those leagues, is pretty radical (or it used to be, anyway; he may have backed off this stance in the intervening years). He once wrote an essay in an Abstract, the original topic of which was (if I recall correctly) whether or not expansion had diluted the available talent in the major leagues. In that essay, he concluded that it had not, in fact, due to the addition to the talent pool of Black and Latin players as well as the (now) three-fold growth in just the population of the US itself. He went on to argue that there was enough population and talent to supply probably 70 or more “major-league” teams on a talent level equivalent to that of 1960.
He also went into a discussion on how minor league baseball is basically a fraud, as teams aren’t playing to “win” so much as playing to “train”, and that it was really not fair to the people of Indianapolis to not really have a “team” to root for as a result. He concluded that the best thing for baseball would be the elimination of the National Association, turning all minor league teams free of their MLB overlords, and letting everyone compete in a free market. The minor-league teams could try and make themselves into major-league teams by signing whoever they damn well pleased; if Albert Pujols is willing to sign with Omaha for megabucks, then go for it. And if you end up with four “major” leagues as a result, it’s a win for everyone… except, of course, the established order of 30, who would take it on the chin. Really interesting piece. (I don’t have it handy to check, but it may have been reprinted in This Time Let’s Don’t Eat the Bones.)
Living in Cardinals country, I have a friend who’s a Mets fan because (aside from an egregious lack of parental oversight) he liked Felix the Cat and the Mets had Felix Milan.
How can you have a list of the best lefthanders in the game’s history and not include Donovan Osborne? Oh, yeah, right. Nevermind.
Caught Tim Kurkijan on ESPN talking about the Big Unit and he rated Randy as the 3rd best lefthander … behind #1 Lefty Grove and #2 Warren Spahn.
So there is someone else out there in the media giving Lefty some love …
btw – love me the Felix Millan.
Felix Millan was fun to watch.
There isn’t anyone left in the majors who chokes up on the bat like that anymore. I think some NL pitchers should try that, especially if they’ve tried to bunt and have two strikes on them.
Another second baseman of that era who was fun to watch was Tito Fuentes. I remember him whipping his bat around like a baton after every swing and miss, and just being very colorful to watch play the game.
Working hard on that book on the Reds, huh Joe?
As I post this from work.
Good stuff. Lefty, hugely underrated.
Interesting fact, while looking at Grove’s career, 1939 Red Sox, complete with Ted Williams and Jimmie Foxx, still only “compiled”, as Jon Heyman would say, a 99 OPS+. Happens when Doc Cramer and Joe Vosmik are 2 and 3 in PA’s on your team.
Lifelong Sox fan that I am, I have to say…who the hell is Doc Cramer?
Felix Millan is perhaps most famous for being blamed by Joe Torre for Torre’s setting the recrod for single-game GIDP (4), since he singled in front of each of Torre’s ABs. “As Torre said, ‘I’d like to thank Félix Millán for making all of this possible.’”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Millan
Curiously, this article also indicates that Millan’s nickname was “El Gatito” (the Little Cat, or the Kitten). I am old enough to have seen his entire career and lived in NYC at the time (and still do), and I must say that came as news to me. I do not recall anyone ever using that nickname.
Bob R. #13 –
Mel Ott may not get much mention these days, but I would hesitate to put him on an all-underrated team. Not that he wasn’t an outstanding player (he definitely was), but his home/road splits are ridiculous; he was clearly helped enormously by having the Polo Grounds as his home park for his entire career. For instance, his 511 home runs split as 323 home, 188 road.
Bucky #34 –
I am 100% with you on your all overrated list (with the possible exception of Piazza). It still galls me that Pete Rose was named to the starting outfield in the 2000 Mastercard All-Century team, instead of, say, Frank Robinson. And the aura surrounding Clemente is just ridiculous: I would bet money that at least 90% of the fans asked would name him the best right-fielder of all time.
To compare him to just one other RF:
Clemente: 317/359/475, career OPS+ 130 (best 171)
F Robby: 294/389/537, career OPS+154 (best 198)
No comparison, really, as far as I can tell. Before someone else brings it up, Clemente’s defense was probably better — but enough to make up 92 points in OPS and 24 points in OPS+? I think not.
More debate on best lefty –
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4231338
Pretty interesting stuff …
doc cramer was the juan pierre of his day. well, without the speed…
David in NYC: As a Pirate fan, I loved Clemente but you are spot on when you compare his complete offensive game to Frank Robby’s for instance. Of course, Clemente’s stature shot through the roof during and immediately after the ‘71 World Series when he outplayed Robinson and everyone else on Baltimore’s roster. Then, he had a good ‘72 season for an aging rightfielder before his untimely death so he never gave folks much time to find fault with his career before he died MUCH TOO SOON. When you die as a sincere humanitarian as Clemente, a thick Teflon shield to criticism is and always will be part of the legacy.
One final note about Clemente…When one would watch him play rightfield (especially in the odd-shaped rightfield of Forbes Field) his mesmerizing throws like arrows coming in from his territory to nail baserunners was as exhilarating an athletic feat as I can remember when I was a teen. (He could hit a little bit, too (but mostly for average) – but not like the powerful Frank Robinson or Henry Aaron.
Frank Robinson has always struck me as the most underrated player of his era. Nothing cooler then winning a triple crown after being traded.
I like the fact one reader did bring up what Sandy was doing before Dodger Stadium became his home. It does bother me that his critics only mention his peak being the Dodger Stadium years. Having watched baseball for 40 years now, his 65 World Series performance of back to back shutouts on two days rest with the final shutout coming in game seven on the road is probably why he is still so revered. A team that consisted of 65 MVP Zoilo Versalles, Tony Oliva, Harmon Killebrew, and slugging Bobby Allison was no walk in the park. Kind of funny that Bobby Allison had an OPS+ of 163 in 1964 and came in 32nd in the MVP voting.
Lefty Grove’s numbers have always boggled my mind, so I enjoyed this story.
Just curious if anyone knows, what was the difference in salary in those days between a minor league time like the Orioles and the big leagues under Connie Mack for an elite player like Grove?
Great article Joe. As an amateur baseball history buff, I enjoyed you shining the light on the great Lefty Grove, who certainly should be in the conversation for greatest pitcher period, and is, I think hands down the best lefty.
Speaking of lefties who struck out the side on 9 pitches, Royal’s lefty Danny Jackson did it in the ‘85 series. (The same inning where Brett flew into the dugout after a foul ball-that was strike one)
Felix Millan was an entertaining player. If you are a long-time tribe fan, Oscar Gamble was an entertaining player. The only Felix Tribe fans ever saw was Felix Fermin. UGGGHHH
Whitey Ford was a fairly dominant lefthander. And a quite a winner as well.
Joe – a few columns back was the mention of pitchers with low BB counts, did not Bret Saberhagan have a year where he only walked like 15 guys or something?
Grove didn’t start till he was 25. Spahn missed 3 seasons because of World War II. Add those in and he more than likely would have won 400+ games in his career. He might even have made it to 2nd on the all time wins list and hey, wins mean something. The point is to win games, no?
And all this talk about Felix Millan, what about Felix Mantilla?
And one more thing. I think the most underrated player title is a tie between Stan Musial and Frank Robinson.
Joe this is an excellent article.
Personally I think Rick Reuschel is the most underrated pitcher of all time, then Phil Niekro, Bucky Walters and Rick Ferrell. But Grove is a top ten guy who does poorly on these kind of lists even by so called rabid baseball fans. Most underrated superstar pitcher no question. The Mel OTT of the the pitching world.
I think 3 things that hurt Grove’s image:
1-His team (Philadelphia Athletics) doesn’t exist anymore. No one in Philadelphia cares about the A’s anymore and Oakland doesn’t seem romotely interested in celebrating their Philadelphia past. He went to the Red Sox at the tail end of his career. Odds are if he were a Yankee, Dodger,Giant or Cardinal or had spent his entire career with the Red Sox his legacy would be enhanced and celebrated.
2-He pitched during a great hitter’s era. Kind of like the great hitters of the 60’s. this hurts Walters and Ferrell as well. So traditional stats like ERA don’t really show how great he was.
3-He pitched in a time period where there isn’t much film footage available to show how great he was, no t.v. no video etc. And what’s available in film are little scratchy black and white clips.
John Q
I have written an article about how good Reuschel was using sabermetrics. Here is the link
http://cybermetric.blogspot.com/2009/06/rick-reuschel-for-hall-of-fame.html
#50 i don’t think i agree with point #2, there. his career ERA is surely higher than it ought to be, due to his era…but at the same time, the man led his league in ERA nine times, and in strikeouts seven times. that sort of thing kind of screams ‘dominance,’ no matter what the final numbers ended up being.