Five things you may not know
Posted: May 22nd, 2009 | Filed under: Baseball | 63 Comments »
Well, as you might imagine, I’m getting crushed by emails and voice mails and Facebook mails and all kinds of other mails regarding Steve Phillips’ bashing of Carlos Beltran. Most people just wanted to contact me to say that they think ESPN’s Steve Phillips is an idiot … it seems to me a lot like the scene in Airplane where people line up to slap the hysterical woman.
There are also some who think I’m an idiot and Phillips is absolutely right … Beltran is an underachiever, he’s a malingerer, he dropped that pop-up the other day, he struck out against Adam Wainwright, he has never lived up to his potential, he has never lived up to his contract, he doesn’t smile enough, he’d doesn’t like baseball, he doesn’t fit in New York, he doesn’t care and so on and so on and so on.
Well, I have a feeling that this is a topic I will have a lot more to say about in the coming weeks. But for now … well, if you read this site, you know where I stand on Beltran.
So, for your enjoyment, here are five things you may not know:
1. The New York Mets single-season record holder for home runs is not Mike Piazza, Darryl Strawberry, Howard Johnson or Dave Kingman.
It is Carlos Beltran. He hit 41 home runs in 2006*.
*He tied the record: Todd Hundley also hit 41 home runs for the Mets.
2. Only one switch-hitter in baseball history has had multiple seasons of 80 or more extra base hits. It is not Mickey Mantle, Pete Rose, Eddie Murray or Chipper Jones. It is not Jimmy Rollins, Mark Teixeira, Lance Berkman or Reggie Smith. It is not Bernie Williams, Chili Davis, Roberto Alomar or Ripper Collins.
It is Carlos Beltran. He’s done it three times.
3. Only one player in baseball history has stolen 200 or more bases and been successful more than 85% of the time. It is not Tim Raines or Rickey Henderson, not Davey Lopes, Eric Davis or Joe Morgan, not Carl Crawford or Willie Wilson or Ichiro or Vince Coleman.
It is Carlos Beltran. He has stolen 281 bases and been caught 38 times, a preposterous 88% success rate.
4. There is only one center fielder in baseball history who has hit more than 40 home runs in a season and has also stolen more than 40 bases in a season. That’s in a career, I’m not talking about one 40-40 season. Hmm. It’s not Willie Mays. It’s not Mickey Mantle. It’s not Ken Griffey or Joe DiMaggio or Grady Sizemore or Duke Snider. It’s not Andruw Jones or Fred Lynn or Bernie Williams or Curtis Granderson or Amos Otis or …
Yeah. It is Carlos Beltran. He hit 41 homers for the Mets, and he stole more than 40 bases in back-to-back years, 2003 and 2004.
5. There are two center fielders in baseball history, two, who have had more than six seasons of BOTH scoring 100 runs and driving in 100 runs. They were both excellent defensive center fielders — multiple Gold Glove winners. They were both extremely fast base runners — especially in their younger years. They both spent a good portion of their careers as center fielders in New York.
The first one, Willie Mays, played the game with an outward joy. He smiled. He said “Say Hey!” He played stickball in the street. When he ran in the outfield, his hat often fell off. He had one of the greatest catches in World Series history. He pulled off the 100 run/100 RBI thing nine times. He is viewed by many as the greatest player in baseball history.
The second one, Carlos Beltran, plays the game with a stoic restlessness, he does not often seem to be having fun out there. His hat does not fall off when he runs … he’s so graceful he hardly appears to be running at all. He had one of the greatest playoff runs in baseball history — in 12 playoff games in 2004 he hit .434 with 8 homers, six stolen bases, nine walks, 14 RBIs and 21 runs — and people still say he fails in the clutch. He has pulled off the 100 run/100 RBI thing seven times, and if he stays healthy he’ll probably do it again. He is viewed by many as overrated and an underachiever.
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Well, sure, if you’re going to rely on *facts*…
Numbers don’t play the game, Joe.
Or something like that.
Joe, for your next trick, can you please tell us why Johan doesn’t “earn” run support? Because Stevie P has to be right about something, I would assume.
Does he have a good face?
I’m not sure about the last point. Ty Cobb had 7 years of 100+ RBI (plus one more of 99) and 11 years of 100+ runs scored (plus one more of 99). Of course accomplishing something done by Mays and Cobb is a rather nice feather in Beltran’s cap.
Editor’s note: The stat refers to having BOTH 100 runs and 100 RBIs in same season (updated in post to capitalize BOTH). Cobb had four seasons with 100 runs and 100 RBIs.
Of course, no one who wants to bash Beltran will pay any attention to this, just like no one who wants to bash A-Rod will pay any attention to his prodigious accomplishments. Some guys just can’t win. We all want our superstars to be Sosa and McGwire, not Bonds – guys who seem to play the game for us and not for themselves. Never mind how completely unfair that is and how really it shouldn’t matter how a guy comports himself as long as he’s performing.
@DLF: This is true, but three of Cobb’s 100+ RBI years came when he was a full-time right fielder from 1907-1909.
I just keep wondering how much of this is cultural, how much of this is the old guard and their rules about what a baseball player is “supposed” to do and say and be like, and Carlos Beltran is shy and quiet and religious and a snappy dresser.
I wonder about the undertones. I just wonder about them. I am sure most of them are subconscious. But then I wonder how many of them come from what I have started to term “The Great Latino Baseball Conspiracy,” which is what I tell people when they say things like “Well, you know, Mark DeRosa, if his last name was Martinez he’d already been on the Mets,” and instead of calling them a racist to their face I try to make them realize how dumb what they are saying sounds.
I mean, I’ve had friends yell that all Beltran is doing is his “job”. And I scratch my head and wonder about that. I mean, isn’t it his job? What does he have to do? What about that collision between him and Mike Cameron? Wasn’t that part of doing his job? How quickly did he come back? How quickly do Mets fans forget about that?
What more do they want?
And then I wonder how many passes David Wright gets because he’s a clean-cut white boy from Virginia.
This is what he get’s for picking New York over Houston.
Just imagine how good Beltran would be if he played the game the right way.
Speaking as a Braves fan, if Beltran is “underachieving”, I am pretty terrified of what will happen when he starts achieving at an adequate level.
Actually, count me among Beltran’s fans (as much as I can root for a Met, anyway). It started when I began playing fantasy baseball and one of my close friends/opponents and I would start repeating “Carlos Beltran…Carlos Beltran…” in a robot voice whenever he was nominated in our auction. There is something about the name Beltran that sounds like an obsolete computer language and the name is fun to say in a robot voice. Try it.
Well, my fantasy teams back then thrived on underpaying for Royals hitters no one else wanted – your Sweeneys, Damons, Dyes and Beltrans. I don’t want to go too far discussing my fantasy teams what with Joe’s rule (which I like) but it is the reason I got satellite TV and tuned into an inordinate number of Royals games. Besides having a vested interest in his stats, I remember enjoying watching Beltran play. I still enjoy watching him play.
I don’t understand the Beltran-bashing. It’s always been clear that Beltran was very very good. I think there’s some sense that Dustin Pedroia, for instance, is only as good as he is because he just tries so darn hard (I love Dustin Pedroia, so don’t get me wrong here) and that, if Carlos Beltran tried that hard, he could probably play the whole outfield, hit .700, and steal 150 bases a year.
Because Beltran’s style is not “gritty”, though, somehow people perceive that he’s not trying as hard as he can. It seems to me that some people succeed because of their intensity and some people succeed because of their ability to maintain calmness in pressure situations. Beltran’s naysayers seem to think that somehow points are getting knocked off for style but I’m pretty sure that all the offense and defense he creates count no matter how he looks while he does it.
Great post.
Just for fun (clearly I have a low standard for what is “fun”) I pulled the complete list of 19 players who have had at least 7 seasons of 100 runs/100 RBI. Amazing company that Beltran keeps on this list:
13 – Gehrig
12 – Ruth
11 – Bonds, Foxx, A-Rod
10 – Aaron
9 – Mays, Frank Thomas, Williams
8 – Bagwell, Dimaggio, Chipper Jones, Ott, Thome
7 – Beltran, Gehringer, Goslin, Musial, Pujols
And really, Beltran is hardly a surly character like Bonds or Albert Belle or Bobby Bonilla. He doesn’t do stupid shit off the field like Vince “Firecracker” Coleman or Jeff “Washing His Truck” Kent, let alone get into serious trouble like Ambiorix Burgos or Ugie Urbina. He’s never been named in PED investigations (though I’d be silly to believe he’s any more above suspicion than any other player of this era).
He’s just… quiet. I mean, is that really such a horrible thing? Just about any other profession in the world, a guy who showed up every day, went quietly about his business, and did a phenomenal job of it would be looked on fondly. Sure, he makes a ton of money because he’s a phenomenal baseball player rather than a phenomenal bank teller, but that’s no different from great baseball players with different personalities. I just don’t see the problem.
(And then people want to bash Jose Reyes for being TOO emotional. Some folks just want to find something to gripe about, I guess.)
Very clever phrasing of your facts Joe, because of course Willie Mays never stole MORE than 40 bags, his career high is exactly 40.
I think the problem with Beltran is that hes so good at everything that people never really consider him when talking about one thing. For example if your picking someone to steal a base you talk about a Jose Reyes, a Carl Crawford or a Jacoby Ellsbury yet Beltran is just as good. It is because he does not excell at just one thing but everything that he is not seen as a great player, which is crazy on.
I think that it is not “racism” which has caused this. Could it be a part of it? Absolutely.
But I think it is something more fundamental than race. I live in Cincinnati (9/9/09!) and I often feel, like Joe probably does, that I am surrounded by idiots who don’t appreciate some of the great players who have been here. I have finally reached the conclusion that it is not about (or is at least not all about) race but about attitude, hustle, talent, and winning.
First, let me say this theory only applies to people with star/superstar talent. Like Beltran.
The most beloved player in Cincinnati history is Pete Rose. He won 2 world series here, but was loved not only for being great, but for also hustling all the time and for taking what seemed like pedestrian talent and willing himself to victory. Plus, he always had the media eating out of his hand. He remains amazingly popular, despite tax evasion felonies and the whole, you know, gambling thing.
Contrast him with Adam Dunn. Adam was never liked here, really. Many hated him. Why? Well, they didn’t win while he was here. But more fundamentally, his talent was evident, but his effort, while there, was NOT evident. He has amazing power. He isn’t slow. He has lots of great “intangible” qualities; he is funny, nice, never begged out of the lineup with injuries (or hangovers). He was uber-consistent, as Joe has pointed out.
But he never looked like he was straining himself. Did he care? Of course, why play hurt if you don’t. But he never acted like he did. We hated him; many were thrilled to see him leave.
Eric Davis was another example. I have never seen such an exciting player. He was the fastest player I have ever seen, and even a 390 foot homer seemed majestic when hit with his 6′, 170 pound frame. He ran hard, played hard, but was criticized here because of his obvious, obvious talent. None of us could see ourselves being Eric Davis. But we could Pete. Only when Eric won a world series while lacerating his kidney did he become beloved, rather than merely admired.
There are countless other examples, but Beltran is just like that. He is so talented, we see his failings as a character flaw. He’s not a “gamer.” When Phillips sees Beltran, he doesn’t empathize with his failings, because he doesn’t understand how he can fail, truly. Phillips, like all of us, failed as a ballplayer. We can SEE Rose’s effort. We can’t see Dunn’s, or Beltran’s, or Davis’. They are so good we can’t put ourselves in the latter’s shoes.
Willie Mays ran fast, but LOOKED like he was running fast, or at least as fast as he could. Davis and Beltran glided. Dunn loped. Rose ran like he was on fire. I remember reading that even Ted Williams was booed/criticized for not LOOKING like he was running as hard as he can.
None of us really knows how hard it is to hit a major league slider. But we have all run as hard as we can before. If we see someone not doing that, then THAT is the cause of their failings, we think.
Josh:
In another era, baseball players were allowed to show up everyday, go quietly about their business and do a phenomenol job and they were looked at fondly, even loved. Just apparently not now.
I mean when someone gets the nickname Iron Horse, I suspect that that person was a bit stoic (and since Lou Gehrig was a German-American, I am fairly positive he was a bit stoic), yet Lou Gehrig was a well-loved icon in his day.
So really, what you’re saying is that if Beltran isn’t an underachiever, he’s an overachiever and he’s really getting lucky. We should see regression to the mean any minute now.
Any minute…
(/sarcasm)
I think I’ve heard these complaints before–the most similar player in my experience to Carlos Beltran, and while not quite the player Beltran is he was still a GREAT Royal, is Amos Otis. Amos made it all look easy, including stealing second and third standing up on consecutive pitches (in a playoff game in 1976?). He had a great stolen base percentage, too. He didn’t talk to the media much. But it took years for Willie Wilson to dislodge him from center field.
Another note on Beltran–Shea Stadium was not a good place for hitters, so in my opinon his stats as a Met are even more impressive.
Reading through the SI.com website, I noticed Beltran was featured in the “Pop culture Grid” this week. I think his answers provide an additional glimpse into the perception of him, namely that he is quiet, somewhat uninteresting. He basically does not provide an answer for half of the questions.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/extramustard/05/20/pop.culture.grid/index.html
Adam was never liked here, really. Many hated him. Why?
Because the people of Cincinnati have a very high regard for the opinion of JP Riccardi?
I don’t find Beltran’s demeanor on and off the field, or his style of play, to be much different than Bernie Williams. Both were quiet, switch-hitting, center fielders in New York, both were minorities, both won a bunch of Gold Gloves, had some power, took their walks and could steal a base. Bernie walked more and had a higher OPS+ by a few points, but Beltran steals more often and at a better rate, has more power, and is a better defender. Overall, they’re pretty damn similar.
The differences?
1. Bernie started in New York and played his whole career there, while Beltran is a high-dollar free agent.
2. Bernie has four rings.
I think #2 is the driving factor in the perception difference here.
Count me in the, “Steve Phillips is an idiot” category.
Maybe not a perfect comparison, but how about Joe Mauer? It seems like Mauer is perceived as a “quiet leader” or that he “leads by example” (and not “hits into too many DP” or “not enough power” or “doesn’t have enough ‘fire’”).
If Beltran would just bite the head off a bat once in a while like Ozzy Osbourne, everyone would LOVE him!
Did ESPN not throw Steve Phillips into the Jon Miller/Joe Morgan announcing team for Sunday Night baseball to help add some sane baseball comments to counteract Mr. Morgan’s? That doesn’t mean that Phillips is all that “wise” either but it’s rather ironic, no?
While I won’t want to be blind to potential racial overtones in discussions like this, keep in mind that Steve Phillips mentioned Toriii Hunter as an example of a “winning ballplayer.” I’m sure he and people like him also feel that David Ortiz (Dominican) is a “winner” as well.
Beltran is far, far, better than either of them, of course. The Hunter example from Phillips is every bit as laughable as McClouth, and probably moreso, since McClouth would at least be paid less, while Hunter, who is probably about as overrated as Derek Jeter, is paid just as much as Beltran. (to be fair, Jeter in his prime was far, far superior to anything Hunter has ever done. now they’re sorta equals)
Hunter? Check WAR leaderboards — he was never even the best CF in his division in the AL Central. Not only has he never been as good as Beltran, but he was never as Sizemore or Granderson when they came up. And KC fans should look close — from 2005-2008 David DeJesus has also been far superior.
The Angels 5/$90 contract for Hunter is a massive albatross. Heck, any GM who offered him $5/80 should probably have his checkbook taken away.
Sorry. /rant
Joe — this is almost pointless, if well put. Anyone who thinks Beltran isn’t a winner going to be convinced, even using easy-to-understand-if-trivial numbers like 100/100.
Please don’t do that – the whole selective demarcation to prove a point. I like to break this one out on people to make my case for Tommy Herr as a Hall of Fame second baseman:
Only one dozen second basemen in the history of the
game have amassed 1400 games played at second base,
250 doubles, 150 stolen bases, a .270 career batting
average, and had at least twenty percent of their hits
go for extra bases. It reads like a who’s who of the
game:
Eddie Collins, Hall of Fame
Frank Frisch, Hall of Fame
Charlie Gehringer, Hall of Fame
Nap Lajoie, Hall of Fame
Bid McPhee, Hall of Fame
Joe Morgan, Hall of Fame
Ryne Sandberg, Hall of Fame
Roberto Alomar, Future Hall of Famer
Craig Biggio, Future Hall of Famer
Larry Doyle, who should probably be in the Hall
Del Pratt….
The final name on the list? Tommy Herr. Not Rogers
Hornsby. Not Bobby Doerr. Not Nellie Fox. Not Johnny
Evers. Not Jeff Kent. Tommy Herr.
I had the misfortune of sitting next to a Cubs fan one night in the bleacher section of old Busch stadium. Somehow the conversation got to Beltran and the snob Cubs fan told me “He is the most overhyped overrated player in the game today.” I am a lifelong Royals fan that got started on them in 1989 so Beltran was the best player I ever got to actively root for. That is the closest I have ever come to getting completely irrational at a ball game.
I am still mad at that guy. I told him Carlos Beltran played baseball in a beautiful way in Kansas City and that he was sour grapes because the Cubs couldnt buy him. Shortly after that the Cards won on a squeeze in the bottom of the 10th. haha
Amen.
Beltran’s not a “gamer”? How quickly did he come off the DL after that horrible collision with Cameron in 05? He played with a face protector that looked like the Phantom of the Opera, for heaven’s sake.
How much more ‘grit’ does he need?
He is married and deeply religious. His at-bat music has been the same since he came to the Mets: it’s a song called “El Esta Aqui,” which translates to “He is Here”. It’s Latino CCR (christian contemporary music). He writes a J in the dirt for his wife every time he comes to bat.
This just makes me crazy.
There’s probably no one answer. Some people might criticize Beltran and not be factoring in race. But some are, whether they know it or not.
Guy called Francesa’s show yesterday, and I believe it was Beltran that got him off and running. His point was that Latino stars don’t love the game and treat baseball as a business, as opposed to your white stars, who’ll take the hometown discount. Francesa started by asking if Manny was businesslike; he actually cited Manny and someone else, I don’t remember who — I want to say Sosa. I had to run in to the doctor’s at that point, but I like to think Francesa next mentioned J.D. Drew and Clemens, before he really let the caller have it.
Here’s the thing–Beltran did some of this to himself. He didn’t have to have Boras as an agent. He didn’t have to play mini-Me A-Rod and sell his soul to New York. If Beltran wasn’t in that media market, none of these criticisms would ever have been made. But he followed Boras’ siren song to the Big Apple with the dream of becoming a media superstar in addition to a baseball superstar.
And while Carlos has the talent for the latter he is a colossal failure at the former.
Beltran was with Wichita when I worked there in 1998, and I feel blessed to have spent the season with “Dos Carlos”–Beltran and Febles… Both of those guys did their jobs, and did them well… Both were also quiet (OK, Febles was off the field–on the field he was a chatterbox) and shied away from media attention… In the case of Febles, it was because of the language barrier, and I think there was a lot to that with Beltran, too…
He was a nice guy when he was around a group with whom he was comfortable, but closed up when strangers (including the media) came around… I also remember him being humble, despite the fact you could tell he was as great a talent as anyone else in the Texas League that year… (BTW, we lost to Tulsa for the crown in seven games that year…)
Also, regarding Mauer… I know nothing about him personally, but he is the most beloved player up here in MN and ND since Kirby… He’s a St. Paul boy playing for the hometown team, and most fans love everything about him…
You then get the talking heads on the radio pointing out his injuries, his lack of power (at least until this year), perceived defensive shortcomings, etc… One guy has even dubbed him “Baby Jesus” because of his status with Twins fans…
Like Beltran–you can’t win… Someone will always take a shot at you, no matter how you go about your business…
@Jon (#29): The whole selective demarcation thing does lose its power when you start stringing a bunch of stats together (your Herr example has five) and when you include fringe achievements (like 1400 games at second base and at least 20% of hits going for extra bases). But Joe never puts more than two numbers together for Beltran, and they’re completely universal as benchmarks (100 runs/100 rbi; 40 hr/40 steals). Numbers like those aren’t a manufactured case for Beltran’s brilliance; they’re indisputable proof of it.
@Jon #29: I understand your point and I get wary of that too, but if you look at how Joe broke it out, they’re all pretty reasonable levels. Not something like “.270 batting average,” which no one would argue is really the mark of a good player. “80 or more XBH” is 40 homers and 40 doubles, which is hardly watering down the criteria. 40 homers and 40 steals are famous enough to have their own name when they happen in the same season. 100 RBI and 100 runs need no explanation. Only #3, the 200 steals/85% success rate thing, comes off as slightly gerrymandered. But 281/38 is ridiculously good by any standard.
Steve Phillips and Joe Posnanski—- STEEL CAGE MATCH!!! LET’S DO IT!!
I thought runs and RBI were thrown out along with pitcher wins and all the other “counting” stats that depend upon cooperation from others. Gosh, if he had BOTH 100 R and 100 RBI in the same season as he hit the 41 HR, he only contributed to 159 total runs. Cobb hit 12 when he did it when playing CF in 1921. He played 128 games that season and he contributed to 213 runs. Two hundred thirteen is quite a few more than 159. If we’re going to use counting stats, how long does Beltran have to play to steal as MANY bases as Cobb? Let’s wait until he steals #892 and then see how many times he’s been caught. Of course, Cobb also had the reputation of lacking a sunny disposition.
@Michael – Universal benchmarks? 100 is a benchmark simply because it is a round number. And it is “universally” known that runs and RBI are as much a function of batting order position and the players surrounding you as it is ability.
As for the 40/40 benchmark, when did achieving it over the course of multiple seasons become a measure of success? No one cared about the concept in a single season until Canseco in 1988 and I’m not sure too many people do now. That hardly makes it universal.
Sure, I take it to an extreme with the Herr example but what is the cutoff point for contrived accomplishments? Three categories? Four?
@Windier – It was the fifth point Joe made that moved me to post because he turned an accomplishment into a contrivance. he could have said Carlos Beltran has the highest success rate stealing bases than any player with 200 career steals. Instead, he has to turn it into an 85% qualifier. Also, you’re right, 40 2B and 40 HR is eighty extra base hits. But so is the 44-7-29 that Beltran put up. And that is certainly more impressive than the 22-5-52 that Mantle posted since Mantle only had 79 XBH, right?
I think Beltran is a great player. It grieves me to see Joe having to resort to things like “Mets all-time single season leader in HR” and the other stuff to try and make that point.
When we had Carlos in Kansas City, we knew we had something special!! He was rookie of the year in ‘99. He made so many unbelievable catches in center field that you were disappointed if he didn’t get one! If Carlos stays healthy, he’ll put up some unbelievable numbers and he does it very quietly!! He’s like Carlos Delgado, Ryne Sandberg, Andre Dawson, and many others. Their career all of a sudden comes to an end, and they all have Hall of Fame numbers!!
Where would my Royals be now if Beltran would have been in KC all of these years? Maybe we would have kept Dye and Damon? How many great free agents would have loved to come to the Royals then???
What should Carlos Beltran do to change things around?
What if he charged the mound a couple of times?
About about wearing a hat that’s a little too big, like I’ve read May did?
Anything else that wouldn’t be too hard?
I highly doubt that Beltran’s popularity index has to do with him being Latino, as some have gone to great lengths to suggest. Sosa and Big Papi were tremendously beloved in their primes. Is there a ball fan alive who doesn’t rate Pujols as MLB’s best player? Or that Pedro was spectacular in his prime?
And if anything, the great Roberto Clemente is OVERrated historically, because of his great rep.
Maybe his stoicism has something to do with it. I thought that the Bernie Williams comparison was apt. Four rings do tend to give a guy a certain glow.
“Only one switch-hitter in baseball history has had multiple seasons of 80 or more extra base hits . . . It is Carlos Beltran. He’s done it three times.”
Yup, though Berkman is awfully close – one year with 94 and two years with 79.
Beltran and Berkman are forever merged together in my mind in that 2004 playoff run too – Berkman had 4 homeruns and 31 total bases in those 12 games. Not quite up to Beltran’s standard, but the two made a fun one-two punch. I can’t believe the Astros didn’t advance past the second round that year.
All the more impressive when you take into account that he only operates on a five-month season. Like the rest of the Mets, his season only lasts from April to August!
Joe’s point with those #s is that those are precisely the sort of #s that conventional baseball men normally like…….Beltran is a victim of the “blame the best player” syndrome, noted by Bill James in an abstract way back when; the only twist is that normally this happens with just plain lousy teams, rather than objectively good teams that for whatever reasons* can’t quite get over the hump.
*like they have have trouble hitting with both hands wrapped around their own necks.**
**just kidding, Mets fans!
The issue with Beltran is the same we had with Bobby Abreu when he played with the Phillies. There is no clutch to his game. He will post numbers but they never really do anything to help the club win. When he was with the Royals and Astros he was certainly clutch. He makes as much as anybody else on that team, so that makes him a leader in some regard of a team that perennially chokes. I think that is the legacy that Phillips was talking about. Abreu was addition by subtraction, we got nothing for him, but it opened up a place for the next generation to come in and take over. I think the Mets should hold onto Beltran, hold onto him tight.
Has Steve Phillips ever once been right about anything?
Pacbell(45)
The Astros lost that year because they ran into the St. Louis Cardinals, who won 105 games. That team had the great Albert Pujols, along with Scott Rolen and Jim Edmonds in the last truly great years of their careers. Here in STL we call that trio the MV3, because all of them had legitimate MVP arguments that year.
That team also had Larry Walker in the next-to-last season of his career, a great catcher in Mike Matheny, a rock-solid IF defense and a bunch of groundball-machine pitchers.
That Cards team was one of the best in recent years, and it was a real shame that they didn’t show up for the World Series. That Sox/Cardinals series was shaping up to be one of the best in recent years, with a 98-win Sox and a 105-win Cardinals, but sadly it didn’t play out that way.
RE: Beltran/Phillips
Steve Phillips is not an idiot…just a total moron. Clearly, Beltran is garbage because he’s made some strange baserunning lapses in the past few weeks, because he was frozen on a savage Adam Wainwright curveball, and because he sailed a cutoff man that one time. Or not. What Phillips forgets about that Waino strikeout is that, at the time, every single Cardinals fan had their eyes closed. It was Carlos Beltran, who has something like 35 hits in 20 at bats in playoff games with 410 home runs! We were terrified and were sure the game was over! I know that’s not really a measure of anything, but still…
Once again, Phillips is a total moron.
Pete,
Ouch! Pujols, Astros, and playoffs – I’ve tried to block those associations out of my mind!
I haven’t read much of it, but I did find this site: http://www.firestevephillips.com/
So funny Phillies fans are the biggest Beltran haters while Cardinals fans are even bigger Beltran defenders than Mets fans. As Joe points out Bobby Abreu is nowhere near Beltran’s class when Beltran is in the class of few. I forgive his terrible 2005, we had an incredibly weak lineup and he cracked his skull and as a Mets fan I hardly place blame on him for the collapse of 2007. Steve Phillips is an numbskull and should never be taken seriously, especially regarded the Mets who is he now trying to take credit for Jose Reyes and David Wright (Players he openly shopped to other teams). Beltran is a smooth, cool customer. Abreu clearly has lost his power stroke, gained weight, and is afraid of outfield walls. Do not even compare just because they are both quiet uninteresting Latinos.
Consider what Carlos Beltran has accomplished in his career to date, compared to what Andre Dawson had done to the same age (age 32 the year Dawson was awarded the MVP). Dawson has seemed to many to be just below the Hall line. Will Beltran finish, years from now, just over that line?
@CMG
I think the Cardinals fans literally quake at the concept of Carlos Beltran. We’ve watched him shred the Cardinals with a 1.521 OPS in ‘04 and 1.054 in ‘06. He’s hit SEVEN playoff home runs off of them in 14 games. Let’s just say we Redbird fans have seen his best, and as a group are bright enough to know that even something below his “best” is still amazing.
Your absolutely correct Joe, he’s a very under-rated player!
1) of course it’s vaguely racial – what’d Bill James call it, “the bullshit dump”? Look at those numbers Joe cites – Beltran is at least kinda good, huh?
2) Ah, Sabathia and Texiera can be “proud to be Yankees”, what every kid ever wanted to be, they get a pass. Guess if it’s a another team, then it’s all about money. Raise your hand if you routinely accept employment for the lesser salary.
3) Dimaggio got the same complaints – not trying in center. His hat didn’t fly off because he was already there when the ball came down. Get real… “pasta-diving Jeter”. ‘Nuff said.
4) Jim Bouton’s words still ring true – “in baseball, “colorful” means wearing your hat at a jaunty angle.” Being a flashy dresser can’t help Beltran in that regard – weirdo.
5) If one more person says “gets his hits when they don’t matter” I will jump off a cliff. Right up there with “clogging the bases” as pure nonsense.
“You don’t win games with statistics!” Uh, what are they for, then? Aren’t they something like you did x many good things in y number of opportunities? Aren’t good things, uh, good? I think Beltran’s done a number of good things over the years.
Beltran gets the privilege of being identified with the Mets’ failure the last two seasons, along with Wright and Reyes. This probably leads to further resentment/negativity.
Now if we want to talk about real underachievers and people not getting the most out of their talent, can we discuss Steve Phillips’ employer?
I guess “technically” your 40 homer, 40 steal statement is correct but:
Brady Anderson had a 50 homer and a 50 steal season. Granted his 50 steal season he played predominantly in LF, but he played most of his career games in center including 143 games during his ludicrous 50 homer 1996 season.
Want to know why Beltran doesn’t get any love? He’s hit .300 twice in his career.
I really think people still tend to focus on that even now with all the advanced statistical measurements available today.
We live in a world where the players themselves often don’t realize what they’re saying. After yesterday’s Rays meltdown against Cleveland, Jason Isringhausen said, in so many words, that he’d rather give up a home run than walk a guy.
Now, being a reliever, he’s got an interior understanding that dwarfs our own outside observances… such as, “Those one-run leads are tough to defend with guys on base, but if I give up a tater, hey! No more lead to worry about! I’m golden!” My outside observation tells me that, had he done as he said he preferred and given up a home run to even the first of the three men he’d walked, the game would have been tied. Instead, after three walks, the Rays were still winning, and retiring Martinez would have preserved the game.
Maybe he was auditioning to replace Steve Phillips in the booth?
nightfly #61 –
I think what Isringhausen meant was “I would rather (throw pitches that could potentially cause me to) give up a home run than walk guys.” Having heard this from other pitchers (and managers) in a similar context, I believe this is just a version of “If he hits it, there’s 9 guys who could catch it; nothing prevents a walk.”
OTOH, I could be wrong: I have heard people who should know better, including Yankee broadcaster and marginal HoF candidate Jim Kaat, say that giving up a 3-run homer is better than giving up a single that leads to another 1st-and-3rd situation. In fact, I have even heard him call 3-run homers “rally-killers”. IIRC, another person who should know better who agrees with this is Tim McCarver.
Now, that’s some serious stupid.
Here’s another dumb Steve Phillips quote, courtesy of one of the many Twins blogs that I read: http://overthebaggy.blogspot.com/2009/05/twins-lacking-true-leadoff-hitter.html