Managerial Moves: An Apology
Posted: April 21st, 2009 | Filed under: Baseball | 70 Comments »
In yesterday’s episode of “Managerial Moves,” you might recall, I wrote that I simply could not understand why in the world the Royals would start the virtually unpitchable Horacio Ramirez on Wednesday in Cleveland against Cy Young winner Cliff Lee even though the Royals No. 1 starter Gil Meche will be on full rest.
Well, my face is red. Because it turns out now that the Royals are not starting Horacio Ramirez.
Instead, they are starting … BRIAN BANNISTER!
Yes, the blog’s patron saint Brian Bannister was called up from Omaha, and he will pitch on Wednesday. Now, you may say: Well, this still doesn’t make any sense, why didn’t the Royals just skip the fifth spot, pitch Meche, Greinke and Davies on full rest? Why couldn’t the Royals just wait to bring up Banny or Luke Hochevar on Sunday since, after all, the whole goal of this season would seem to be to get Meche-Greinke-Davies in there as often as possible.*
*There have been numerous attempts already at the Spahn and Sain rhyme — the best I’ve heard so far is “Gil, Kyle and Zack then hope for a comeback” or “Zack, Kyle and Gil and then wait until.”
Yes, you could make that logical point. But here’s my point: I don’t care now. Banny Log coming Thursday.
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How about Gil, Zack and Kyle and then pray for a while? Or how about: Gil, Zack and Kyle and whatever you do, don’t bring in that other Kyle.
Stephen Saint John had the best application for the Royals, with regards to the Spahn and Sain and pray for rain. After all, it was the opposing teams saying pray for rain. So, while it doesn’t ryhme, he coined the phrase that the other teams are saying now…”Meche and Greinke and pray for Farnsworth.”
Gil and Zack and then holy Jebus we need some frickin’ runs.
Rany had the line I like best: “Meche, Grienke, Davies, then hide the women and babies.”
Royals.com thinks so much of their previous fifth starter that the top story states:
Brian Bannister was recalled from Omaha on Tuesday, and Doug Waechter was placed on the 15-day DL. Bannister will start on Wednesday instead of Hector Ramirez.
It should also be noted that Royals.com does not love the idea of Bannister either. In its game preview, it lists the following in upcoming games:
• Wednesday: Royals (Gil Meche, 1-0, 2.25) at Indians (Cliff Lee, 1-2, 6.75), 6:05 p.m. CT
• Thursday: Royals (Zack Greinke, 3-0, 0.00) at Indians (Anthony Reyes, 1-0, 5.73), 11:05 a.m. CT
• Friday: Royals (Kyle Davies, 1-0, 2.89) vs. Tigers (Edwin Jackson, 1-0, 2.14), 7:10 p.m. CT
PHEW! I was a little nervous on Sunday that perhaps our Banny had been traded. I’ve seen guys leave games in Omaha early because of trade before! But this solution is a LOT better.
The wind was blowing in on Sunday, but Banny didn’t really need its help to keep the ball in the park. 5 of his six outs were groundouts, and the other was a backwards K. It was beautiful.
They are starting Bannister instead of Meche because they are punting the game. It’s the baseball version of bidding 4 spades when you have nothing in your hand: take the hit and live to fight another day. If Lee has his stuff, it’s a long day even with Meche pitching. If he doesn’t, they have a chance even with Bannister.
So why waste Meche against a #1 starter? If the Royals can consistently line up their 1-2-3 starters against other teams’ 3-4-5, they’ll have a winning season.
Zach, Gil, and Kyle, then watch 4 and 5 with a fake smile.
Joe,
When are you going to weigh in on this crazy SI fake letter controversy? Officer Ricky Thurman? Ha!
http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/2009/04/who-is-ricky-thurman-si-letter-fraud.html
To Brett @ 2: It wasn’t the other team praying for rain. It was the Braves’ fans.
Spahn would pitch, Sain would pitch, the Braves would presumably win those 2 games, and then the Braves fans were praying for 2 days of rain so that Spahn and Sain could pitch again without anyone else having to pitch.
That’s what “Spahn and Sain and pray for rain” meant.
To any Sabr critic who says that numbers guys aren’t real fans, look no further than Brian Bannister. When a mediocre player professes his regard for sabrmetrics, every numbers guy falls in love, no matter his on the field performance.
I read a couple days ago that they might do something like this. I hope they know what they’re doing…
Give me Gil, Zack or Kyle, or otherwise I turn the dial.
Did you know Ron Gardenhire likes to abuse his 8th inning relievers until they suffer career threatening injuries?
Gil, Zack, and Kyle, then prepare to taste the bile.
Gil, Zack, and Kyle, then steer clear of the turnstile.
Gil, Zack, and Kyle, then Ponson’s paunch and Banny’s guile.
Gil, Zack, Kyle and Joakim …. good luck rhyming that one.
I don’t know all the details of the Braves 1948 season or when the rhyme started, but my guess is that there was supposed to be only one day of rain in between in the poem’s rotation. This was back in the days of the 4-man rotation generally; that became a 3-man rotation towards the end of the season.
Some interesting stuff I found on Retrosheet:
“Spahn and Sain” starting consecutive games happened 13 times.
“Sain and Spahn” (which makes for a lousy poem, but would fit in the overall “we only have 2 good starters” concept) happened 10 times.
In the last 22 games of the season, Spahn (7) or Sain (8) started 15 times.
The last 9 games of the season went “Spahn and Sain” and someone else 3 times around.
In 4 consecutive games 9/6 (double-header) and 9/11 (double-header), the Braves starters were Spahn, Sain, Sain, Spahn (rain from 9/7 to 9/10?).
In 4 games over 5 days (9/14 thru 9/18), the Braves starters were Sain, Spahn, Sain, Spahn.
Sain led the team with 42 starts, but Spahn was actually 3rd with 36. Bill Voiselle started 37 times (but his name makes for a REALLY lousy poem).
And it is one of the catchier two-line poems around, along with “Candy is dandy/But liquor is quicker” and “Men don’t make passes/At girls who wear glasses”.
Hey, Joe — now that I think of it, why weren’t any of those 3 included in your “greatest poem” poll?
Kyle, Gil and Zack, or give my money back.
Has anyone written about why teams need 5-man rotations, anyway? Once the pitcher is past the beginning stages of his career, planning on 250 innings doesn’t seem crazy to me.
Are pitchers that much worse on 3-days rest?
Gil Kyle and Zach, then fall 2 games back?
When it is Greinke, Davies or Meche, I dance like it’s a Feis.
But when anyone but them, our chances seem mighty dim.
Meche, Davies, and Greinke, the rest are to darn stinky.
How about
“Gil, Zach, and Kyle, then lose for awhile”.
Gil, Zach and Kyle . . . the rest are a stinkin’ pile?
Gil, Zach, Kyle and Joakim . . . better the the best it would seem.
Meche, Greinke and Davies, then hope your rival gets rabies.
Zach, Kyle, and Gil, then prepare to be ill
Gil, Zach, and Kyle, and a great steaming pile
Gil, Kyle, and Zach, then two kicks in the sack
Apologies to J
Gil, Kyle, Zack, and then the wolves attack.
Davies, Greinke and Meche, the rest throw like Anne Heche
Meche, Greinke, and Davies, then serve meatballs and gravies
Meche, Davies, or Greinke, or you’d best hide the car key
As a fan I really like Aces vs. Aces.
But people don’t decide to show up at games on a whim. They get the tickets and show up and hope it’s a Greinke game.
I happened to get great tickets the day the match-up was Nolan Ryan vs. Saberhagen. Probably my best day ever at Kauffman Park.
9 innings of shut-out ball, both at the top of their games, neither bull would die. Then it went another seven innings with both the Rangers and the Roylz getting lead-off batters on 3rd with no outs and relievers coming through.
16 innings, with my ex- (one of the reasons she’s now my ex-) complaining it was time to go home. I think Texas scored two runs in the top of the 13th or so, the Kansas City tied it back up and the game went on. My ex- was complaining she couldn’t buy any more beer. (That’s another reason she’s now my ex-.)
But as a practical matter, I have difficulty accepting the best way to rack up wins is for a team to match up Aces.
There are no sure things in any game, but Meche and Zack are as close as we’re likely to get this year. There’ll be some days when they’ll get lit up, probably, but those are gonna happen about as often as the Roylz offense wakes up against the other guys’ Ace.
And letting your most valuable assets rest in April? I’ve been a Kansas City fan too many years to not realize T.S. Eliot was an optimist.
I hope Bannister shows up with his A game. He loves baseball so much and even when he fails, he tends to know what he’s doing. Lee might have an off-night and Banny might be spectacular. That means, maybe, 2-1 Roylz with Meche up next.
If the Tribe goes all New Yankee Stadium at home, it’s just another defeat for KC. And Cleveland will be exhausted for the next two games from all that base-running.
Just as boxing managers avoid fighting the guy with the left hook when their fighter is weak against the left hook, there’s something almost…Japanese?… in Hillman’s approach to mixing up the match-ups.
Bannister may be a lamb led to slaughter on Wednesday.
But I feel good about the series in Cleveland.
We’ll see.
That’s why they play the games, I guess.
“Davies, Greinke and Meche, the rest throw like Anne Heche
Meche, Greinke, and Davies, then serve meatballs and gravies
Meche, Davies, or Greinke, or you’d best hide the car key”
Bellylard what’s the book on Anne Heche, is she a switch-thrower as well as a switch hitter?
How about “Anybody but Farnsworth” instead of anything else…
Zach, Gil, and Kyle, then kill yourself.
Oh, it needs to rhyme?
Gil, Zack and Kyle
Those three should do for a while
But unless we’re ahead by a mile
Don’t use the Other Kyle
If you wanted to go the other way, you could go with: Banny, Ramirez, and Luke; try not to puke.
Another favorite, which other Reds fans who remember the early 1980s will recall:
“Soto, so-so, and hope for a no-show.”
How about
Gil, Zack and Kyle then hope it rains awhile.
Joe,
You weren’t in KC when the A’s only chance to win was when Bud Daley took the hill The cry back then was “Pitch old Bud and pray for a flood”
To whom it no doubt concerns:
I strongly suspect that, with the variations in scheduling/rain-outs/off-days/etc., attempting to match up your 1-2-3 starters against (say) the 2-3-4 guys of your opponents — EACH TIME THROUGH THE ROTATION — is attempting the impossible. I haven’t looked at the numbers, but I suspect that the #1 spot on a typical five-man rotation faces something like 13 #1’s, 8 #2’s, 7 #5’s, 3 #3’s and 3 #4’s over the course of a season. And, keep in mind, those are only the “spots” in the rotation, not particular pitchers; by the All-Star break most teams will have suffered multiple missed starts and at least one injury to a rotation-member, all of which can cause (for example) the ace of a staff to end up pitching in the games originally slotted for the #4 hole (e.g. games 59, 64, and 69) and the #1’s games to be pitched by spot starters.
But more to the point:
The primary motivation in ordering a rotation is that it’s tradition and therefore acts as a reward/recognition for the highest-performing members of your pitching staff. The secondary motivation is it gives you the best odds of winning right out of the gate. It also ensures that your best starters get — theoretically — two extra starts over the course of the season (one pre-break, one post-break, assuming you reset the rotation given the off-days).
“I happened to get great tickets the day the match-up was Nolan Ryan vs. Saberhagen. Probably my best day ever at Kauffman Park.”
I was at that game, too. My friend and I went and sat out in left field GA, and once the game went into extra innings, we just kept rooting for the game to go on and on.
I’ve never been too clear on the whole Anne Heche thing either…Is she too attractive and still a Hollywood A/B lister to be totally butch? Did I read that she actually married or is to marry a real guy? I could care less, but since her name came into the dialogue my curiosity was aroused even just a lttle bit.
BTW, Warren Spahn was a horse for so many years. Wish they still made MLB hurlers like that. As a 42 yr old in 1963 the young Spahn threw 259 2/3 innings, record was 23-7 with a 2.60 ERA. Oh yeah, only 22 complete games… Slacker-wimp!
I vote for the “then fall 2 games back” one. Either that or the paunch and guile selection.
How about “Meche, Davies and Greinke, then it’s like we’re facing the 27 Yankees”
This isn’t real clever, but it continues the rain theme:
Meche, Greinke and Davies, then hope for a monsoon before Ponson
David in NYC,
You could at least have credited Dorothy Parker for the couplets… the classic retort for the second one is, “Not so- it all depends on their frames”. I’d credit the author, but I don’t remember the name.
“Gil, Zack, Kyle and Joakim …. good luck rhyming that one.”
Gil, Zack, Kyle and Joakim- the other buffoons are a hideous dream.
Gil, Zack, Kyle, and Joakim- anyone else is paddling upstream.
Gil, Zack, Kyle, and Joakim- close your mouth tight and try not to scream.
Gil, Zack, Kyle and Joakim- then the opposers seem like they’re on Cream. (Like the Cream and the Clear that Bonds used. Kind of a stretch?)
If it’s Farnsworth instead of Soria, you’ll wish you were in North Korea.
All I’ve seen Anne Heche throw is a fit.
It’s Banny time, baby.
“Meche, Davies and Greinke then pass the Hanky”
Meche, Davies, Greinke, and then things get hinky. Best you’ll get out of me during finals week (must… grade… more).
Bob Tholkes –
You’re right, I was remiss in not mentioning perhaps the funniest lady this country has produced. “Brevity is the soul of lingerie” and “If you want to know what God thinks of money, just look who he gave it to” are among my other favorites from Ms. Parker. And, of course, one of the all-time great theater reviews, speaking of Katharine Hepburn’s performance in a Broadway play early in her career: “She ran the gamut of emotions, from A to B.”
However, the “Candy is dandy” couplet is from Ogden Nash, most famous on this blog for writing “Lineup for Yesterday” (A is for Alex, the great Alexander…).
By the way, could it be more of a stretch to be including Kyle Davies in the company of Greinke and Meche? Perhaps he’s going to pan out but all this poetry makes it seem as if one can be equally confident when Davies takes the hill as when Greinke does. And obviously, that’s not the case.
Zack might win the Cy Young, whereas Kyle…well jeez, if he goes 12-10 with an ERA under 4, that would be phenomenal.
I don’t think you should have to apologize… Hillman clearly said that he was starting HoRam… I can’t say I’m upset at all that Banny will be starting instead. Go Royals!
meche, davis and greinke: money in the bankey.
Darn, now my plans to take a trip to Las Vegas and finance the trip with the sure winnings I would have by betting against the Royals tomorrow are shot, I guess I will stay in KC and watch the game on TV.
“Zack and Joakim but the others aren’t as good as they seem”
Somehow Sidney Ponson got the start today. Looks like Joakim Soria won’t be pitching again.
Kyle, Zack and Gil, then take some happy pills.
The Royals have played games with scores of 4-2, 2-0, 2-1, 4-1, 6-4, 4-2, 5-4, 2-0, 6-5, and 8-7.
And Trey Hillman has only found 4 innings of work for Soria.
That is a fireable offense right there.
Banny Log!
Joe, I thought immediately of you when I saw that Bannister was penciled in for Wednesday.
I thought you should know.
Zack, Kyle and Gil then two bums on the hill.
That is it….Josh nailed it
A haiku for fat Sid:
Damnit, fat Sidney
Seven point oh-four ERA
Banish to Buffet
Meche, Greinke and Davies then a couple of maybe’s.
[...] Joe Posnanski had a brief post about this situation, and he is such a Bannister fan he seems to love the choice. I think you may have noticed that I am trending toward linking to Posnanski a ton this season. Each year that seems to happen. A couple of years ago, I wrote a ton about the A’s because I loved what Susan Slusser had to say. Two years ago it was John Harper of the New York Daily News, who for a stretch seemed to write exactly what I had been thinking. This year it seems to be Joe P, at least in the early going. As the season progresses, and the teams really in it become clearer, I may move on. But for witty and to the point pieces Posnanski is getting the nod these days. Tags: Brian Bannister, Cliff Lee, Gil Meche, Kansas City Royals, Luke Hochever [...]
Rusty:
I gotta agree. I know almost no managers today would bring in Soria for the bottom of the 8th when the Royals brought the game back to 6-5, but it would have been the right move. Again, he was saved for a situation that never arose. So he wasn’t used. (and it cost the Royals since they hit a HR to get to 7 runs in the 9th, which didn’t matter since the Indians scored 2 runs in the bottom of the 8th)
Gil, Zach, and Kyle then pray to God Jacobs can hit a mile.
I so glad to have Banny back!!
“We have Meche, we have Greinke
and we have KD……..
Oh, the skill that resides
in our starting three.
As for the rest
of the starting five
On those nights the bats
had best be alive.
When it comes to the bullpen,
at times they’re so great
Of course, they are days
when they can’t find the plate!
But, no matter the start
I sing “Hallelujah! Gloria”
When they bring in the beast
We call Joachim Soria!!!!
For Brett M (#2)
No, it was the Braves fan’s praying for rain – hopefully enough rain that Spahn and Sain would come up in the rotation again and the other guys (Barrett and Voiselle most likely) could then be skipped.
Zack, Gil, and Kyle, then don’t watch for a while.