Why I’m Rooting For Jonah Keri
Posted: April 2nd, 2009 | Filed under: Baseball | 69 Comments »
I don’t know Jonah Keri, though he is an e-migo — yes, we are definitely going with Brilliant Reader John’s suggestion word “e-migo” as the “Friends you don’t really know but keep up with via email and Internet social Web sites” — and I like his work. But there’s a different reason I’m kind of rooting for Jonah Keri to beat my team in the Seamheads Historical Fantasy Baseball League.
The reason is this: I cannot help but root for the story.
Maybe this is just what happens after you’ve spent so many nights on the road rooting for the story. I don’t know. I do wonder sometimes if other sports fans feel that way about their own team — would they EVER choose the story over their own team? I call it my Soviet Hockey Question. Do you think there were ANY Soviet hockey fans who were kind of rooting for the Americans to beat them in 1980? Probably not, right? Well, there was a cold war going on.
So maybe it would be better to wonder this: Did any Boston Red Sox fans that found themselves in the playoffs last year thinking: “Hey, you know what? This Rays’ story is pretty awesome. I mean, hey, the Red Sox have won two World Series lately, but the Celtics are awesome, and the Patriots are awesome. I mean, I want Boston to win, but it really wouldn’t be too bad if the Rays beat the Sox in the playoffs.”
We have a lot of Red Sox fans who read this site, so I’m sure you can tell me: Did you have any of those emotions? Even in the slightest way? Like I say, I really don’t know because my teams have always been the ones on the other side of the equation. I’ve never had a team win ONE championship, much less had an embarrassment of riches.
I do know this: None of the Yankees fans I know can ever feel that way. Rooting for the story over their own team is against their very nature (which, in its own way, is kind of admirable — Yankees fans are insatiable). I believe it was my good friend and Yankees fan Tim who first alerted me to the Jacob Ruppert quote about what makes a good Yankees day: “It’s when the Yankees score eight runs in the first inning … and then slowly pull away.”
Of course, I don’t think the Yankees fans are alone. I don’t think most Pittsburgh Steelers fans, even with two recent Super Bowls and six overall, could ever feel that sort of, “Well, hey, good for them,” feeling about another team. I don’t think Kentucky basketball fans could ever feel it either. Come to think of it, maybe this whole emotion does not really exist in sports fanhood.
But I am definitely feeling it. You may know that we’ve had this big historical baseball league with all sorts of cool team owners like Bill James, Curt Schilling, Mike Vaccaro and the line. I’ve been running the Cleveland Indians, of course, and after making the shrewd decision to do absolutely nothing all season long, I won my division. I then knocked off the Toronto Blue Jays in a brutal five-game series — brutal, in large part, because (and I cannot say this strongly enough) Bob Feller absolutely sucks in this league. More on that in a minute.
Anyway, by beating the Blue Jays, I moved in the Championship Series. And I am currently facing Jonah Keri in this Baseball League for the right to face Bill James’ Boston Red Sox in the all-time World Series. Bill’s Sox just annihilated Curt Schilling’s Pittsburgh Pirates in four straight games. Bill’s Red Sox seem pretty much unbeatable at this point — I don’t think they have lost a single playoff game. So the whole point is moot.
It would be fun to take Bill on with my Cleveland Indians … except I still find myself rooting for Jonah? Why?
Because Jonah’s team is the Montreal Expos.
Seriously, how can you not love a story like that? Here we are in this league where owners could select the best players ever to play for the New York Yankees (that team somehow didn’t even make the playoffs), the Philadelphia Phillies, the Chicago White Sox and so on. What chance would anyone give the Montreal Expos, a team that never once legitimately won a division title (the only playoff appearance was in the strike year)?*
*I should mention here that I have received a couple of very nice emails from brilliant New Yorker writer Adam Gopnik — it turns out he was a HUGE Expos fan. At some point, I will absolutely need to do a little Expos Q&A with him.
So, yes, I’m blown away by the underdog story of a team whose leading home run hitters are Rusty Staub and Larry Walker, a team that in Game 5 of our series is throwing PASCUAL PEREZ up against Gaylord Perry, a team that has, best I can tell, has one Hall of Famer (Gary Carter) while my Indians have 10 Hall of Famers, a team that has already beaten my Indians twice with Steve Rogers and Andy McGaffigan getting the two victories.
It’s a great story. And with the series tied at 2, anything is possible … ESPECIALLY because Bob Feller is awful. Absolutely dreadful. In Game 2 of this series, Feller gave up seven runs 5 2/3 innings against a lineup that led off with Ron Hunt. Bob Lemon was no great shakes either. Where are Victor Cruz and Sid Monge when you need them. Anyway with Feller essentially unpitchable — he almost singlehandedly lost to the Toronto series for me too — I think the Jonah’s Expos have a real shot. This Perry vs. Perez game is critical.
I’ll be happy for Jonah if he wins. Really. Though it might be hard to explain to Cleveland fans. And I will definitely have a long talk with Bob Feller.
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Joe,
I’m a very dedicated Sox fan, but could not be too upset after game 7 last year, in spite of that gut wrenching series. Some of this is the way I’ve felt about the team every since 2004, but a lot was having some real sympathy for the Rays and wanting them to have their moment. Which really made it too bad when they lost to a pretty objectively inferior Phillies team.
I am without a doubt the most liberal Red Sox fan I know ( refuse to believe that the fate of the world hinges on the outcome of a game in mid-June), so my opinion might not be of the utmost value here.
Last year during the ALCS, I wanted the Red Sox to win, go to the World Series, repeat as champions, yadda yadda yadda. But, I found myself thinking, if they have to lose, I can deal with it coming at the hands of the Rays. (I actually noted before the season that as a Red Sox fan, Tampa Bay scared me.) They were a good team and a good story.
I’m a Sox fan and well, no, I didn’t want the Rays to beat us last year. However, like many Sox fans before those 2 titles were won, we have endured many years of mishaps, heartbrakes and just general choking(in my case about 40 years of it).
So if we want to be selfish and win 6 titles in 14 years I think the organisation has earned it.
HOWEVER, in saying that, I did want the Rays to win the world series once they got past us because I thought they showed heaps of character after blowing game 5, then losing game 6 and coming back to win game 7. I never wanted them to beat the Sox, however they did earn my respect and as a fan of baseball as a whole I wish them and their fans the best of luck this year.
BTW, I can’t stand the Celtics and Patriots so you can take that anyway you want.
Circle Me Bert!!
1.) Don’t you think it’s very “Cleveland” for the Indians to lose to the ‘Spoz?? I kinda think so.
2.) I’d postpone the talk. I think even fake Bob Feller would punch you in the face.
Riddle me this … how come the Red Sox played the Pirates and the Expos faced the Indians? Shouldn’t the Bostonians have opposed the Sons of Geronimo while Montreal battled the Buccos?
It’d be good if my name could be changed as I admit this, but this lifelong Sox fan wasn’t upset at the Red Sox losing to the Devil Dogs last year.
And since the Expos were my NL team when they existed, that just makes things more interesting. Go Jonah!
I am a Sox fan and I agree with the first couple posters – exactly 100% of me was rooting for the Sox against the Rays, but when they lost I didn’t get upset or want to punch a wall or feel like it was a lost season or anything.
I thought “The Rays are awesome” while I watched the ALCS, and rooted for them to beat the Phillies, because it’s great to see a small market, small budget team with a great front office totally pull it all together just at the right time like that. It was a defeat, but it was admirable. A lot of that surely came from the wins in ‘04 and ‘07 though. If this had happened in ‘03, I would have felt a LOT different.
You’ve got to root for the story. Even as a die-hard Sox fan, it was pretty obvious to me that anything less than Rays as champs in 2008 would be (and ultimately was) a grave baseball injustice.
Red Sox fan.
When it got to the playoffs, it was clear that the sox did not deserve it. I couldn’t feel bad losing in that circumstance.
Joe,
As an Expos fan your sentiments are much appreciated. Good luck against the Sox if you happen to get past Montreal.
I’m with Andy – a lot changed after the champagne started flowing in ‘04. It also helps a lot that we had that crazy Game 5 to smile at.
But my fondness for the Rays ain’t got nothing to do with the story, but rather the fact that they’ve managed to put together a scary great ball club, and there really hasn’t been any evidence that is an accident.
The fact that even before ‘08 started there was a blood feud between the Gas House Gorillas and the Someday-we’ll-win-more-than-70-games,-and-then-you’ll-be-sor-Rays; that’s just icing on the cake.
You’re a better man than I am, Joe. Normally, I love rooting for the story, but I couldn’t do it this year with my Steelers up against the Cardinals. Sure, I wouldn’t have been horribly ticked off if they’d won given how great their run was, but I couldn’t give up on my team for Cinderella.
you yourself published the chart that showed that the worst royals team would still have beaten the best yankees team something like 13 percent of the time. and in fantasy-land those stats are probably much more skewed towards the underdog. love this post!
plus…can’t help wondering what mark gubicza and the quiz splittorff and dennis leonard might have done.
My only ‘well, good for them’ moment happened in Super Bowl 32, when I watched my beloved Packers lose to John Elway’s Broncos. Though I was disappointed that Green Bay lost, it was admittedly cool to see Elway finally get a championship after all those tries in the big game.
Maybe Jonah can avenge the real-life World Series that was lost for the Expos when the 1994 strike hit.
Were Royals fans rooting for John Lester to no hit their boys in blue? No. Even though he was coming back from cancer? Wish him the best, but nope. I disagree with rooting for the story, it makes the story contrived. The story should be exactly what happens not what you hope happens especially when that means rooting for your team to lose in some small part of your body. I’ll never understand the contention that a Red Sox fan would follow the team with a passion the entire year just to be okay with the Rays beating them in the playoffs, what a waste. Even though its only baseball and it isn’t all that serious doesn’t solve the problem with Benedict Arnold rooting. Its a double edged sword, it may not be important but if its not important then how does the story mean all that much anyway? There is nothing in me that wants the Royals to lose this year so someone out there can have a wonderful night and write-up in the paper. I think this is part of the disconnect between baseball writers and fans. Fans love the purity of the action while the writers look for the spark and sizzle. Granted its their job to do so, but I would like to hear just a tad bit less sizzle and a tad bit more purity.
In theory, I think I could root for the story over my team, but I’m not sure that I’ve ever actually done this.
I’m a Mets fan. And I think I did take some secret pleasure in Tom Seaver beating the Mets soon after he was traded. Of course, that’s a while ago…I may be giving myself more credit than I deserve.
Nate
I, too, cheer for “the story” from time to time. Take the NCAA tourney, for example. As the son of 2 KU alums I have always been a rabid Jayhawks fan. I want the ‘Hawks to win every game. Still, in the 1st round, I found myself pulling for Ben Woodside and NDSU a little bit. That kid played his heart out.
Just as with the Red Sox fans, my team having recently won a title in an unbelievably spectacular manner has everything to do with my feeling of detachment.
Such feelings are common (I hope). I’m a KU fan, but I’m also a fan of basketball and competition in general. I know what it feels like to put a uniform on for what could be the last time ever. You leave it all on the field or the court and sometimes it’s good enough to play one more game, and sometimes it isn’t. I saw Ben Woodside play and I remembered that feeling. Dammit, I wanted the Jayhawks to win, but Woodside deserved another game.
I’m very happy that I started reading this blog way before Adam Gopnik reads it, but that he does read it…I’m at least synergizing that thought based on this blog post.
I’m a lifelong Red Sox fan. And I have tremendous respect for the Rays and the whole small-budget, home grown talent, good front office, dare to believe dynamic they have going on.
But last fall I could not feel ok about the Sox losing to the Rays in the ALCS, because even amidst the amazing success the team was having, the seats still weren’t full and it seemed for all the gushing nationwide about how great a story the Rays were, the Tampa area itself didn’t really care.
If the Sox had lost to some long-suffering team like the the Royals or the Cubs, I’d have been fine with it. Even if the Rays fans could have just mustered enough baseball passion to more fervently jump on such an obvious bandwagon, I’d have been fine with it. But the taste I was left in my mouth while watching the Rays celebrate their game 7 victory was that such a good story was largely wasted on the people of Tampa, that they didn’t deserve that Cinderella run and probably shouldn’t be home to an MLB club at all.
Maybe, just maybe, as a Sox fan, or any fan you can root for the story over your team. But no real Sox fan was doing that last year for a very specific reason. Tampa Bay is not a likeable team. They are punks, thugs. For a number of years they inexplicably tried to kill Brian Daubach every time he came to the plate. Last season they vastly exceeded the bounds of what should be expected in a bench clearing brawl. One of their guys flew in from the outfield to wail on Coco Crisp who at that point was already pinned to the ground and being assaulted by a number of other players. I couldn’t have been happier to see a truly likeable team, the Phillies, who were a pretty good story themselves, completely embarrass the Rays in the World Series.
Don’t root for the story. It’s presumptuous for you to think you know what the story will be. “The Story” has a funny way of deciding that for itself. In 2003, a lot of people thought The Story would be a Cubs-Sox World Series. It didn’t happen that way, but we still got a slew of great stories (Bartman, Grady, Boone, Beckett, et al.) Root for your Indians. The Indians winning it all would be a pretty good story in itself (as would Joe beating Bill James). The beauty of baseball is that the story is never what you think. (I am a Yankee fan, FWIW)
Good points m@b & Rich. I remember feeling like that baseball team was wasted on Rays fans, too. Put that team in Kansas City and it would’ve been S.R.O. in The K, long before October.
As far as Lester’s no-hitter. I watched the game on television and it was torturous. My impression was that we (Royals) put together a never-ending string of AAAA at bats. I don’t recall feeling warm and fuzzy about the Lester story at all. Cancer be damned.
I can “root for the story” as long as my team isn’t on the losing end. That ruins MY story, and that’s the one I care about. If two teams I don’t care about are playing, then I tend to root for the underdog. But if I care about one of the teams, that’s different. I want my story to end the right way, I don’t care about the general audience’s story at that point. Go get your own story, stop trying to ruin mine, ya jerks.
I am a Sox fan and I have really disliked the Devil Rays for a long time now. (And they will stay the Devil Rays to me, too bad for them.)
Their crimes (in my book) include: They always got into stupid beanball wars and brawls with the Red Sox, and several times Red Sox players have been suspended from it. The Rays didn’t care about suspensions, since they weren’t even trying to win, while the Red Sox were. (Last year in spring training, they actually got into a brawl with the Yankees instead of the Red Sox for a change. And then they actually had a good team, they should try it more often.)
Further crimes: Tampa has a horrible, ugly stadium with astroturf and crappy lighting. Even watching a game on TV from there is bad. And they didn’t have any fans before last year. (Well, I actually know one Devil Rays fan, and he was incredibly obnoxious last year once it became clear that the Devil Rays were going to be good. That was particularly annoying, since i never once taunted him when the Sox won championships.)
Tampa also has that stupid anti-stats cartoon that they play at their stadium. And after the Devil Rays won a series against the Red Sox, the team management decided to blast “Sweet Caroline” on the PA to try to taunt Red Sox fans. (Nice try, bushers, most Red Sox fans don’t really care about that song anyway. But such a lame move for the team to pull.)
To help the many bandwagoners who know nothing about baseball that form 95% of their fanbase, the local paper had to run a ridiculous primer on baseball (“a walk is when a pitcher throws four balls to the same batter,” etc.) that should’ve humiliated the few real baseball fans there. In my opinion, they never should have put a team there, and they should’ve moved the franchise to a place where more people care about baseball a long time ago. They’ve been a bush league organization until recently with bad ownership, a crappy stadium, and barely any fans. They’ve changed recently and hired a good GM, stopped pocketing so much revenue sharing money and become a good team after all those picks at the top of the draft, but most of the other stuff remains.
So no way was I rooting for the Devil Rays on any level. If it had been the Royals, or several other teams, it might have been different (though probably not– the pennant is on the line ferchrissakes.)
I also am a former Expos fan. Ron Hunt was great, he couldn’t do much very well, but he used to wear a really baggy uniform so that he would get hit by a pitch more often. And it worked. He was all about OBP back before anyone called it that.
I went to one of the Expos playoff games in 1981, and it was great, the stadium was packed and rocking. Hard to believe that that empty mausoleum from the late 90’s had ever been that way, but it’s true. Montreal actually solidly supported that team until they actively stopped trying to win in the mid-1990’s, then the fans turned on them and never came back.
For any of my teams, not just the Red Sox, I root for my team, plain and simple. The story simply doesn’t come into play, at least not while the issue is still in doubt and one of my teams is involved. After the fact I’ll consider it.
Example: I went to KU and I’m a die-hard Jayhawks fan. In this year’s tournament when they were playing Michigan State in the Sweet 16, every part of me wanted Kansas to win that game and I was deeply disappointed that they lost. But once the game was over, the rational part of me was able to say, “Hey, they had a good year. They exceeded expectations with a ton of freshmen and sophomores and they’re coming off a championship. Now I hope Michigan State can knock off Louisville and reach the Final Four in Detroit. That would be a great story.”
So yeah, retroactively I can hope the great story works out well. But my team has to already be eliminated before I can go there.
Sorry Joe, I’m with Keri too ! Being an Expos fan all these years, I must admit that Montreal winning your league would lift my spririts… if just a little.
And when I see Loria & his dwarf get a Championship and possibily a new stadium in Florida, it just kills me…
Let’s go Nos Amours !
like many posters here, i’m a huge sox fan.
i tend to agree, that no, i wanted the RedSox to win the series, but when they didn’t i was very happy with their run and didn’t feel any bitterness.
the rays were a healthier team and they deserved to go to the world series. their story is good, but not great. the reason they’ve been so bad for so long is nobody’s fault but their own. good leadership from the front office has turned that team around in just a couple of years – it’s a shame it took so long.
the red sox had a great year where they fought and got very close to the series again.
i see last year’s Boston Bruins as similar to the Rays of 2007. close, but not quite. this year’s Bruins are the Rays of 2008. growing w/ each game, getting ready to make their run.
i hope.
Very well put, Paul. I retroactively sympathized with Woodside after the ND State game. I wasn’t hoping his shots would fall during the game.
The “rooting for the story” reminded me of a Sox-Yankee game in 2001 (in Fenway) when Mussina had a perfect game going in the 9th inning. Carl Everett came up to pinch hit for the Sox and singled, breaking up the perfect game.
Bob Ryan wrote a column criticizing fans for cheering for the hit because in his mind they should have been rooting for the story of the perfect game.
That’s the difference between a fan and a reporter/columnist who covers games as part of his job.
I don’t know any Sox fan who was hoping for a Yankee pitcher to throw a perfect game against the Sox in Fenway.
As a Red Sox fan, I can’t say that I was rooting for the story of the Rays at any point. Some have alluded to this, but the loss wasn’t that hard given how the Red Sox did not seem destined to win the WS last year, especially with all the injuries. I don’t think I was really happy for the Rays, and I didn’t root for them against the Phillies, but I also don’t have much ill will towards them. Probably 2 reasons for that:
1) They aren’t the Yankees
2) I have too much respect for the way the organization is run. The baseball fan in me just appreciates what they’ve done.
I grew up in KC in the 70s. I wasn’t aware of the Phillies long history of losing when we met them in the WS in 1980. I wasn’t aware that they were the sorriest team in the history of baseball, that they were the only one of the original 16 teams not to ever win a WS, in fact that in 1980 they had just won their 3rd pennant ever. I had never heard of the Whiz Kids, who had won their most recent pennant in 1950 (and then got swept by the Yankees). I wasn’t aware that their other pennant occurred during WWI. I never heard of the 1964 collapse. I was somewhat aware that they, like the Royals, had their chances to win some pennants in the late 70s, but had not done so.
Anyway, there were a lot of reasons that it was great for the Phillies to win the WS in 1980. Had I been aware of all those reasons, I still would never, ever wanted Pete Rose, Steve Carlton, Tug McGraw, etc. to win the WS. I hated that. I still do. (nothing against the Phillies, of course, but I was a Royals fan)
I’m a lifelong Sox fan, and I was a little less heartbroken last season than I would have been if the Sox had lost to NY, or plenty of other teams, because I’m a baseball fan first and foremost, and the Rays winning was undoubtedly good for baseball on several levels.
I’m also a total homer – I’ve lived in Wisconsin, I’ve lived in Kentucky, and it’s just a lot of fun to root for the local team. Which is why, now having transplanted myself to Baltimore, I find myself sort of secretly rooting for the O’s over the Sox, especially when I’m there at the Yards for the game. You know why? Because my fellow Sox fans have really started to get much too much obnoxious. I’ve stopped wearing my Sox hat to the games because I’m too mortified to be associated with my fellow fans. You want to argue that Floridians don’t deserve the Rays? The way I’ve seen Sox fans behave in Baltimore the past few years I’d say plenty of them don’t deserve this wonderful Sox team, either. It’s one thing to root for your team and cheer when they score, but it’s another to denigrate people’s hometown, and rag on a team that Baltimoreans are already plenty depressed about. (Not to mention ignorant of history – none of the Sox fans I’ve gotten into it with seem to realize that for nearly two solid decades the O’s were one of the most dominant teams in baseball).
Everyone needs a favorite team, someone to root for. But when it degenerates into mere tribalism, it does way more harm than good.
Joe,
I’m a huge Bears fan, and I live on the Gulf Coast, in Mobile, Ala., where everyone is a Saints fan. Two years ago, the Bears played the Saints in the NFC Championship game. Not only did everyone around here want the Saints to win because they were fans, but this was a year and a half after Katrina, and people believed there was a spiritual connection between Saints victory and the rebirth of New Orleans.
I took shots for every touchdown the Bears scored and marched down Dauphin Street after the game singing “Bear Down, Chicago Bears.”
I’m with everybody, even the everybody who disagreed with everybody else.
I dislike the Rays, who have been punks (especially against the Sox), and who have a fan base come lately. But I did appreciate the story. One the Sox lost, I didn’t exactly root for them, but I didn’t mind much.
That’s at least partly because of 2004. And I think part of it is my journalism background. I hope I’m not being offensive, but part of me was rooting for the Atlanta Olympic bombing. And for Evander Holyfield’s ear. I’m a story junkie.
But I think part of it was that it was only the ALCS, not the World Series. I wouldn’t have been especially happy for Colorado. And I am still bitter about the Giants and that stupid catch.
As a Cardinals fan in 2004, I did not in the slightest way root for Boston to win. When they did, I thought to myself, “if there was a team we had to lose to, I guess at least it’s a good fan base, that has had so many bad years.” Within about 2 days I already regretted it, as Boston fans became even more obnoxious than I thought possible. Between the 2001 Pats, and 2004 “SAWX”, I know loathe Boston with all my heart.
That’s what I get for thinking, “well, at least…”
Indians fan living in Boston. I usually root for the Sox unless they’re playing the Tribe. And, yes, I rooted for the Rays story over ongoing Sox success.
Also included in this is the COMPLETELY INSUFFERABLE Boston fan base right now. All their teams are doing well, but they needed cheating (Patriots), a shady deal (Celtics), and David “I sucked in MIN, but I’m awesome in BOS” Ortiz to win in ‘04. They are slowly becoming the story to root against …
There are a lot of obnoxious Red Sox fans, no doubt. I wish I could make them shut up sometimes. The loudest ones are the frauds who were nowhere to be found back in the early 90’s, when I used to walk up to Fenway right before the game and buy bleacher tickets for $6.
Anyway, I’m hoping to hijack this comment thread and turn it into a discussion of Ron Hunt. That will be way more fun than watching it turn into a battle of which fanbase has more idiots. (The correct answer: whichever fanbase is the largest. The percentages of idiots within each fanbase doesn’t vary much from team to team, except for a large increase after a team wins a championship.)
A great 1987 article on Ron Hunt:
http://www.nytimes.com/1987/07/01/sports/sports-of-the-times-the-memoirs-of-pigpen-hunt.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
Hunt was rumored to wear a wetsuit under his uniform, to keep the HBPs from hurting so much, but he denies it. He definitely wore a very baggy uniform with the Expos, so that it would get nicked by pitches and he would get a free trip to first base.
He never charged the mound after getting hit either. Take note, modern players with all that body armor.
And of course some Soviet Hockey fans rooted for the U.S. in 1980. After all, they rooted for Rocky over Ivan Drago, right?
you’re right about the yankees being insatiable. it was one of my greatest joys to listen to Mike and the Mad Dog after a Yankees loss, even after they were coming off a winning streak. they would have taken the apocolypse lighter.
the weirdest thing for me about Yankee fan’s is their non Yankee interest. In my experience, when nationally they root for other sport’s Yankees. some like kobe. some like duke or unc or whatever. they cant get enough. insatiable is right. give me stephen curry anyday of the week.
And, sigh, i can’t let comment #1 go. the phillies were objectively inferior to the rays? the phillies have a better lineup (the rays just signed the philles 4th best offensive player to play a pivotal role this year). their ERA’s were exactly, yet the media fell in love with the Ray’s youth. Andy Sonnanstine is a great pitcher? Really? The ray’s fell asleep on a team that hadn’t lost a home game all playoffs(and never did).
Bucholz @37.
I don’t recall Don Baylor ever charging the mound either, despite his penchent for getting hit by pitches. Of course, he was known to be pretty imposing barrelling into second base to break up a double play (causing more than one AL second baseman to wet himself back in the day)
AHA! It is now revealed how Joe came to the title of the previous post “Dawson to the Moon”, an obvious take on the Adam Gopnik book “Paris To The Moon”. Adam Gopnik and family moved to Montreal when he was a child and he grew up there during the Montreal Expos’ years. Naturally a fan. Bienvenu à Posnation, Adam.
I am a sox fan. I was 100% for the sox while they were still in it and I thought maybe I would embrace the Rays’ story once the sox were eliminated. I like Maddon and I like young teams finding success. Once it came down to it, though, I found myself rooting for the Phillies.
Philadelphia is a town of die-hard sports fans who went a long time without a championship in any sport. Having the championship won in a city where it really meant something was a better story to me than the upstart Rays winning from a city that didn’t really care.
@Ben #32: The ugly face of Red Sox fans is more or less the face of all successful franchises’ fans, I think. For some reason, sports fans think that their team’s success is indicative of some sort of superiority not just in the team but in the fan and the fan often feels the need to make that superiority clear by acting without any class or sportsmanship (demonstrating a total lack of any real superiority in the process). Add to that that the Red Sox have a giant national bandwagon and a gigantic payroll and it’s easy to understand why Red Sox Nation is becoming so reviled.
I have to root for the Sox. It’s pathological. But I get it why no one likes us anymore and I try to be respectful of fans who love their teams just as much (unless they’re Yankees fans from Connecticut because they’re just bad people).
amen rutbag
I can assure you, I have never rooted for the story over one of my favorite teams.
Uh-oh, it’s clutch time- the Expos-Indians series is tied at 2-2, best of 7. Addie Joss beat Pascual Perez in the opener, then Steve Rogers (WTF?) beat Bob Feller (you’re right) in the second game. They split the next two, with Cleveland winning Game 4 via a 10th inning rally, capped by an Albert Belle sac fly. In the series, Al Oliver is 11-17. Perez should get the start in Game 5- click the link for the league homepage.
I’ve been a Yankee fan since the early 70s, and I don’t have a problem with the Yankees losing when the opposing team isn’t full of a-holes. However, I wouldn’t bear a grudge, so long as the other fans had a little knowledge, fun, and passion about their own team. This Red Sox nation crapola is not going to engender respect. I admit, it’s easier for me since a few world series wins have come in the recent past. For example though, in 1997, before he became a demigod, when Rivera gave up that homer to Alomar, after a few thrown items, I rooted for the Indians in that world series because they were a fun mashing team to watch, and had gone so long without winning. The young Marlins might have been the “story” too, but I ignored that because they didn’t deserve it compared to the suffering Cleveland had experienced. Plus, the Marlins got there with quick fix-free agent spending, which was always what the Yankees were blamed for doing.
When I really starting getting into baseball, the Mets were better than the Yankees, and it was no challenge for everyone in my neighborhood to be a fan of that team. But for me, it was a turnoff to have to go to Shea stadium for Yankees games, and get abused about it. By the time I learned a more complete history of the team, the Yankees were good again, but of course, when I got to college in DC, those Mattingly/Winfield teams ALWAYS lost to the other teams in that division, and there was the combination of being a fan of a POORLY run spendthrift franchise always beaten out by Orioles, Tigers, Red Sox or Blue Jays. When you get used to other fans dumping on you pretty good for about 14 years, you have a little less sympathy when they get a run going and are NO different (or perhaps even more moronic) in their behavior than what you’ve always had to apologize for when the topic comes around concerning your own team.
As pennance, I’ve had season tickets tickets to the Nats for four years now. I used to think Orioles fans were ok, but that O thing they do during the national anthem is disrespectful to do when you are NOT the home team. What are left to do, boo during the song? I think it’s neck and neck between the Mets and Phillies crowds for obnoxiousness, the Mets fans are louder, the Phillies phans are wider. Hard to get around those suckers when the game’s over. Even so, the worst fans I heard were PADRES fans. Oh the weather’s not as good, oh their using OUR songs for their players, where are the fish tacos? Ugh. At least you can talk to a NY or Philly fan between innings most times without throwing up. Of course, they might later.
I think what happens in a close series is, well, if we lose to this team it won’t be so bad, as opposed to actually actively wanting your team to lose that game. The only comparable thing is watching an opposing pitcher throw a no-hitter. You come around to wanting to see it about the 7th inning.
As a Sox fan, I definitely had a little of that “Hey, it wouldn’t be so bad to see Tampa win, they’re a great young team, and hell, at least it’s not the Yankees.” I would go back and forth about that sentiment at various points during the series, but there were lots of times, including once the series was over, when I was genuinely happy for them and their fans. Needless to say, I would never feel that way about the Yankees.
Good luck to you too, Joe. I have to root for Ron Hunt, Pascual Perez and my man McGaffigan to come through for Nos Amours, but your mensch-hood is duly noted.
Yeah, another RS fan. I don’t know if I’ve rooted for “the story” over my team, but yeah, I did root for them afterward. Of course, if it was an exercise like you mentioned, I think I would be more inclined to root for the story. ‘The’ story had kind of gone out the window anyway. The best possible WS storyline last year would have been Cubs-Rays, which died when the Cubs, well, were the Cubs. And Joe, if you follow basketball at all, the Cavs are probably gonna win it this year. (Hoops is WAY more predictable than most other sports. The best team almost always wins a 7 game series there. There is good and bad in that. )
I kind of felt the same thing during Kansas’ run to the championship last year. Davidson was an awesome story, and, while I was rooting hard for KU, something deep inside me was feeling that Davidson winning might be pretty cool, too.
I graduated from Davidson, love that they are coming up in the converstation. Joe, I’m curious if you were rooting for “the story” in the Kansas/Davidson game, as the storyline you ended up writing was how Self finally won the big game. For me, I’m still bitter that it was Richards and not Curry taking the last shot… bothers me to this day. If your best player misses, then it just wasn’t meant to happen. When he doesn’t get a shot off, it’s more “What if?”
I’m also a Sox fan, and while I understand the idea of rooting for another team, when the game starts it’s all Red Sox for me. After game 5 of the ALCS though, it didn’t ruin my season that the Sox lost. They showed in that game they were a tough team that wouldn’t give up, and that’s what I wanted to see.
As for the behavior of Red Sox Nation… ugh. I live in Houston and went to a 3 game Astros/Sox series, and couldn’t stand the fan behavior. I would rather watch games at home then go to live games with Red Sox fans at this point. However, I still want them to win. A lot. More World Series titles please.
Unless your mario chalmers mother, you shouldn’t cheer against davidson (no i didnt go there). it’s unamerican. but like all things in sports, it goes full circle. now little curry (of Liberty) is going to the evil empire, duke.
As a Red Sox fan, I agree with the sentiment that there was no rooting for the story of the 2008 Rays during the ALCS. The fans riled me because of the ridiculous cowbells, items that only football fans use (which is essentially what the Tamp Bay fans are). The “bandwagon fan” wouldn’t have irked me quite as much if the fans slowly built during the season. Instead, there was a sudden swell of fans once the postseason started. I didn’t like the Rays when they played beanball against the Sox (by throwing at Papi’s head!!!!!) in 2005, and I despise Pinella for that non-move of reprimanding his pitcher for doing that.
Were the Rays a good team? Yes. Did I root for them in the World Series? Not when they had those cowbells. For as rephrehensible as Philly fans are (batteries at JD Drew), at least they didn’t need props to show their enthusiasm (smae goes for thundersticks).
It’s good to see the Expos alive again, even just in fantasy land.
As a fan of both the Expos and the Canadiens, I’ve been on both sides of the “story”. How I ached when Rick Monday got that homerun over Steve Rogers, and the strike of ‘94…and we fans can’t even rallied like Cubs fans with “wait ’till next year” anymore !
The Habs have not been as succesfull as in the glory years so each Stanley Cup in ‘86 and ‘93 have been great. But I do remember that in the late seventies, after they did not win that elusive fifth in a row, I was happy that the Islanders won and that the Oilers stop them from getting also a fifth one, but to say that I was cheering for them… I don’t think I went that far.
So the story in fantasy land may be worth a cheer but Joe, should your beloved Indians or Royals be in a position to win it all, I doubt that you would cheer for the story ! Unless, of course, that the story would provide us with more delicious posts.
Nos Expos, nos Amours ! forever !
My Lord, there’s a lot of us Sox’ fans here.
I was okay with the Rays winning the ALCS last year because
(a) They were better.
(b) As a Sox fan, I refuse to complain about not winning the World Series until … let’s see … another 15 years? And while I haven’t read all the comments here, my opinion is that anyone claiming to be a Sox fan who complains about not winning the World Series probably can’t name anyone who played for the team before Johnny Damon.
(c) The Sox were banged up. With a healthy Beckett, my attitude might have been different.
Reasons that didn’t factor in:
(a) The Patriots’ success
(b) The Celtics’ success
Reason that I hesitated
(a) Thunderstix. And then the World Series in Philly, with those STUPID towels. Men clap. Let me repeat that: MEN CLAP. I’m looking at you, Pittsburgh.
(b) The dome
(c) The turf
I hate the Yankees. Hate them. Hate, hate, hate, hate, hate. But their fans clap. It’s becoming a short list.
Even knowing it’s likely to be the only time I saw the Bears in the Super Bowl (was too young for 85), I was ok with them losing to Peyton and the Colts. I didn’t exactly stop rooting for the Bears during that game, but, still, I didn’t care so much that they’d lost. Now, if they’d lost that game to the Patriots…well, lets just say I’m as grateful for the Colts huge comeback in the AFC Championship game that year as any Colts fan.
I’m a Cardinals fan, and of course they went up against the Red Sox in the ‘04 Series when the Sox winning would have been maybe the biggest “story” in history. And up until then, I even kind of liked the Red Sox. Did I root for the story? Not one iota. Not one little fraction of a smidge. I wanted a Cardinal sweep. Let them break the Curse against somebody else.
And since the ‘04 Series I’ve pretty much despised the Red Sox. It’s only now starting to abate a little, delayed by the fact that my “second team” is the Rockies.
I am very odd in this regard, but I don’t root generally feel much compulsion to root for the underdog just because they are the underdog. From that, you can probably guess which baseball team I root for.
I am a serious Red Sox fan, and not a single part of me wanted the Rays to beat us last year. I thought they were loathsome. An entire stadium full of freshly-purchased “new-look” jerseys and unbearably tragic… *shudder* “Ray-Hawks.” Their fanbase last year was 99% bandwagon-jumping jackasses.
The Rays have only been around since 1998, and they’ve been uniformly terrible up until last year. They attracted almost no fans, and the only reason they could even compete last year was that they were so awful that they eventually accrued young talent by having a top draft pick every year.
They had no history, no diehard fanbase and no clever strategy to beat the bigger-market teams other than “be horrible so we can load up on elite prospects in the draft.” The Twins they most certainly were not. So, what I’d like to know is, why root for them at all? Besides some poorly defined idea of “rooting for the underdog?”
I hated losing to the Rays in the ALCS last year. It wasn’t quite as bad as losing to the Yankees, but at least the Yankees field a competitive team every year, and you can respect their talent. The Rays got to where they were by being terrible for ten years. Bravo, guys. And having to watch a stadium full of bandwagon jumpers, without a Devil Rays jersey in sight, celebrate like they had something to be proud of was just… loathsome.
Two things.
First, as a Braves fan, I did feel a *little* bit of what you describe in 1994, when the Expos were beating the Braves before the strike. Just a little because the Braves had yet to win a World Series then.
Also, I live in Stiller Country and I did have a number of Steelers fans tells me they wouldn’t mind *too* much if the Cardinals won last year because they were such a Cinderella. The Pottsville Maroons were rolling in their graves.
I’m a vehement Steelers fan, but I found myself consciously thinking that it WOULD be pretty cool if the Arizona f-ing Cardinals won the Super Bowl. Team full of likeable guys representing a long-tortured fanbase going up against the modern (Super Bowl era) NFL’s answer to the Yankees… I can’t quite say I was rooting for the Cardinals, but I was looking forward to Super Bowl XLIII more than any other football game in my life because I would feel pretty good no matter which team won. And of course, it only turned out to be one of the greatest Super Bowls ever played (would have been THE greatest if the Cardinals had found a way to win the thing, in my opinion).
I am 100% behind Jonah. Go ‘Spos!
I’m a lifelong Sox fan who did not love the Rays “story.” Sorry — they just haven’t suffered enough. I remember reading about some Marlins fan in 2003 who whooshed “at last!” when his team won the series after what, 5 years of existence? Please.
After the Rays beat the Sox last year, I rooted for the Phillies. I have never understood the sentiment (supposedly shared by players as well) that you want the team that beat you to go on and beat the next contender — as if that somehow validates your team; you got beat by the best. I hate the team that beats my team and want them and their fans to suffer the same agony I did.
Overarching everything is that I root for anyone who plays against the Yankees. And sure, Yankee fans clap — they have an electronic scoreboard in Yankee Stadium (the “old” one anyway) that tells them to. Bush!
Big Sox fan, but unlike many of the commenters above, I was rooting for the Phillies last year against the Rays. The Rays were a great story, but I thought the Philadelphia fans had suffered long enough without a championship, while Tampa fans had a Lightning victory only a few years before.
I will say, that while I would root for the Sox against anybody, I’d feel a little bit bad if they beat the Cubs for the World Series.
I don’t like words with seemingly gratuitous hyphens. It makes things seem awfully “old-timey base-ball”… which, when describing an effect of a modern techological inn-o-vation, is ab-surd.
“emigo”. Just like “email”.
I’m a Red Sox fan.
I’d have rooted for the story if I just simply liked the Rays. I do not. I still remember the Pedro Martinez/Gerald Williams game, and also how the Devil Rays seemingly every season won 60 games, 10 of them against the Red Sox… including one Derek Lowe start a few years ago that was 4-0 Sox going into the 9th and somehow ended up a 5-4 Sox loss.
I’ve never thought of the Rays as being a harmless Browns-type doormat; they were always a dangerous snake in the grass as far as I was concerned, and when they beat the Sox in the ALCS, I figured this to be inevitable… about as much of a story as water being wet.
that said, I was certainly rooting for Mike Mussina to pitch a perfect game against the Red Sox in August of 2001… because, hey, a perfect game, there’s a good story. Oh and because Carl Everett is a degenerate bum.
“Do you think there were ANY Soviet hockey fans who were kind of rooting for the Americans to beat them in 1980?”
I can envision this. Haven’t you seen Rocky IV?