Comments on: Shilling and Schilling http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/03/27/shilling-and-schilling/ Curiously Long Posts Fri, 19 Mar 2010 22:46:29 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Garrett KBwsb http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/03/27/shilling-and-schilling/#comment-56002 Garrett KBwsb Thu, 02 Apr 2009 01:07:50 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/03/27/shilling-and-schilling/#comment-56002 Who is the greatest post-season pitcher of all-time? It's debatable, but you could make a pretty good case for Schilling. I'd say that that is a pretty compelling distinction between him and Brown. Also, the fact that those two have the same career ERA+ numbers is a bit of a red herring. Tony Gwynn's OPS+ was 132. Same OPS+ as Joe Morgan and Jackie Robinson. Other players who had an identical career OPS+ of 132: Mo Vaughn, Jose Canseco, and Jim Edmonds. So, are those guys HOF slam-dunks like Tony, Jackie and Little Joe? Who is the greatest post-season pitcher of all-time?
It’s debatable, but you could make a pretty good case for Schilling. I’d say that that is a pretty compelling distinction between him and Brown.

Also, the fact that those two have the same career ERA+ numbers is a bit of a red herring.
Tony Gwynn’s OPS+ was 132. Same OPS+ as Joe Morgan and Jackie Robinson.
Other players who had an identical career OPS+ of 132: Mo Vaughn, Jose Canseco, and Jim Edmonds.
So, are those guys HOF slam-dunks like Tony, Jackie and Little Joe?

]]> By: Rick http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/03/27/shilling-and-schilling/#comment-55889 Rick Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:14:56 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/03/27/shilling-and-schilling/#comment-55889 I say neither to both. Schilling was fantastic in the postseason, but his regular season numbers don't add up. I only see about 7 HOF-type seasons out of 20 total. Standards should be higher than that. If Brown had the bloody sock while pitching for Florida or San Diego in the WS, everyone would have forgotten about it the next day. Schilling clearly benefits from having pitched in Boston. I personally prefer Brown of the two. The game he pitched for the Padres in Game 1 of the 1998 Divisional Series was the second-best pitching performance I've ever seen, right behind the Kerry Wood 20-strikeout game. I believe Brown's 16 Ks are second-most in playoff history to Bob Gibson. Then he came back 3 days later to go 7 IP in another San Diego 2-1 win. But because it was in laid-back San Diego it never accrued him much fame. Not suggesting Brown deserves HOF support, just sticking up for him a little in the debate. All in all I believe they are close to equals, but were dealt completely different hands. I say neither to both.

Schilling was fantastic in the postseason, but his regular season numbers don’t add up. I only see about 7 HOF-type seasons out of 20 total. Standards should be higher than that.

If Brown had the bloody sock while pitching for Florida or San Diego in the WS, everyone would have forgotten about it the next day. Schilling clearly benefits from having pitched in Boston.

I personally prefer Brown of the two. The game he pitched for the Padres in Game 1 of the 1998 Divisional Series was the second-best pitching performance I’ve ever seen, right behind the Kerry Wood 20-strikeout game. I believe Brown’s 16 Ks are second-most in playoff history to Bob Gibson. Then he came back 3 days later to go 7 IP in another San Diego 2-1 win. But because it was in laid-back San Diego it never accrued him much fame.

Not suggesting Brown deserves HOF support, just sticking up for him a little in the debate. All in all I believe they are close to equals, but were dealt completely different hands.

]]> By: mk http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/03/27/shilling-and-schilling/#comment-55873 mk Tue, 31 Mar 2009 19:02:44 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/03/27/shilling-and-schilling/#comment-55873 #41 said: I don’t think Schilling gets in because the “big game pitcher” stuff only gets you so far. To wit — Jack Morris. this seems so strange to me: being a big game pitcher doesn't get you as far as winning meaningless games? like it or not, greatness is measured in october at yankee stadium, as opposed to, say, april at camden yards. #41 said: I don’t think Schilling gets in because the “big game pitcher” stuff only gets you so far.

To wit — Jack Morris.

this seems so strange to me: being a big game pitcher doesn’t get you as far as winning meaningless games? like it or not, greatness is measured in october at yankee stadium, as opposed to, say, april at camden yards.

]]> By: Jason http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/03/27/shilling-and-schilling/#comment-55859 Jason Tue, 31 Mar 2009 17:37:45 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/03/27/shilling-and-schilling/#comment-55859 It's indisputable that Brown struggled in the World Series but in the playoffs before then, he was outstanding, well, aside from the 2004 playoffs against the Red Sox. But in the divisional series, he was as dominant as they come. I feel it's an injustice when everywhere I read that Brown wilted in the playoffs because that erases some fabulous performances. It’s indisputable that Brown struggled in the World Series but in the playoffs before then, he was outstanding, well, aside from the 2004 playoffs against the Red Sox. But in the divisional series, he was as dominant as they come. I feel it’s an injustice when everywhere I read that Brown wilted in the playoffs because that erases some fabulous performances.

]]> By: Lex Gigeroff http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/03/27/shilling-and-schilling/#comment-55851 Lex Gigeroff Tue, 31 Mar 2009 16:32:49 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/03/27/shilling-and-schilling/#comment-55851 I don't think Schilling gets in because the "big game pitcher" stuff only gets you so far. To wit -- Jack Morris. I don’t think Schilling gets in because the “big game pitcher” stuff only gets you so far.

To wit — Jack Morris.

]]> By: Greg http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/03/27/shilling-and-schilling/#comment-55724 Greg Mon, 30 Mar 2009 18:28:50 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/03/27/shilling-and-schilling/#comment-55724 What about Bob Gibson almost identical stats to Curt. Gibson first Wins: 251 vs. 221 ERA+: 127 vs. 127 Postseason: 7-2 vs. 11-2 Ks: 3117 vs 3116 Cys: 2 vs. 0 MVP: 1 vs. 0 WP: .591 vs. .597 Gibsons 2 seasons with cys was when no one else had excellent yrs too. and that is also a factor. IMO Brown isn't that close at all compared to dominant numbers of these two. What about Bob Gibson almost identical stats to Curt.

Gibson first
Wins: 251 vs. 221
ERA+: 127 vs. 127
Postseason: 7-2 vs. 11-2
Ks: 3117 vs 3116
Cys: 2 vs. 0
MVP: 1 vs. 0
WP: .591 vs. .597

Gibsons 2 seasons with cys was when no one else had excellent yrs too. and that is also a factor.

IMO Brown isn’t that close at all compared to dominant numbers of these two.

]]> By: Creston http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/03/27/shilling-and-schilling/#comment-55723 Creston Mon, 30 Mar 2009 18:20:30 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/03/27/shilling-and-schilling/#comment-55723 Curt Schilling had a bloody sock. Kevin Brown was a giant douche. This is the **ONLY** thing that 98% of all HoF voters will be thinking about. Curt Schilling had a bloody sock. Kevin Brown was a giant douche.

This is the **ONLY** thing that 98% of all HoF voters will be thinking about.

]]> By: Tampa Mike http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/03/27/shilling-and-schilling/#comment-55691 Tampa Mike Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:34:42 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/03/27/shilling-and-schilling/#comment-55691 If people will discount a players career because they never won a world series, then shouldn't a great world series record be a boost? Schilling's stats are good, not great, but his postseason performances are legendary. If people will discount a players career because they never won a world series, then shouldn’t a great world series record be a boost? Schilling’s stats are good, not great, but his postseason performances are legendary.

]]> By: CA http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/03/27/shilling-and-schilling/#comment-55687 CA Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:20:09 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/03/27/shilling-and-schilling/#comment-55687 Would the perception of Schilling be different had the doctors put a few extra layers of gauze on his ankle and prevented blood from seeping through to his sock during the game? Not trying to minimize his performance in that game. I'm always struck by how much little things like that can to the drama of an event, and hence to our feelings about the participants. Would the perception of Schilling be different had the doctors put a few extra layers of gauze on his ankle and prevented blood from seeping through to his sock during the game?

Not trying to minimize his performance in that game. I’m always struck by how much little things like that can to the drama of an event, and hence to our feelings about the participants.

]]> By: buckweaver http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/03/27/shilling-and-schilling/#comment-55628 buckweaver Mon, 30 Mar 2009 04:21:30 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/03/27/shilling-and-schilling/#comment-55628 Norm @ #33: You do realize that to have a Hall of Fame vote, a sports writer must be a member of the BBWAA, which means he must have been covering baseball for 10 years -- not be a sports writer for 10 years, but actively be covering baseball for 10 years. So I'm not sure how you can say that "most are too young to have proper voting perspective," considering that. Exactly who do you mean by that? Norm @ #33: You do realize that to have a Hall of Fame vote, a sports writer must be a member of the BBWAA, which means he must have been covering baseball for 10 years — not be a sports writer for 10 years, but actively be covering baseball for 10 years.

So I’m not sure how you can say that “most are too young to have proper voting perspective,” considering that. Exactly who do you mean by that?

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