The Francoeur Arbitration Case
Posted: February 13th, 2009 | Filed under: Baseball | 63 Comments »
From MLB.com: Francoeur Likely Destined for Arbitration.
Francoeur has requested a salary of $3.95 million, and Atlanta has offered $2.8 million. As their discussions have become more limited over the course of the past month, the two parties haven’t reached a point that indicates they’ll reach an agreement before going to Phoenix for their scheduled hearing on Feb. 20. …
Coming off the worst season of his young career, Francoeur doesn’t possess the leverage that he’d hoped to own entering his first arbitration-eligible season. But the 25-year-old right fielder still believes his career statistics and achievements provide him a chance to win the salary that he’s requested.
Since making his Major League debut on July 7, 2005, Francoeur ranks ninth among all Major Leaguers with 540 starts. David Wright and Jose Reyes are the players who have played solely in the National League during this span and made more starts.
The 549 games Francoeur has played during that span are 86 more than any other Braves player.
Arbitrator: All right, let’s begin. We will start with Mr. Francoeur’s representatives.
Francoeur People: Thank you. We want to begin by telling you that Jeff Francoeur is a very durable player.
Atlanta Braves (coughing): “Yeah. Durably sucky.”
Arbitrator: That’s enough. I will not stand for that in here. We will keep this proceeding respectful. Please go on.
FP: Thank you. Like we say, he’s been very durable. Since July 7th of 2005, he has started 540 games. That ranks ninth in baseball over that time period.
Arbitrator: That seems like quite a lot of starts.
FP: It is. Quite a lot. In fact, only two other players in the National League have started that many games.
Arbitrator: Hmm. Who are those two?
FP: Jose Reyes and David Wright.
Arbitrator: Well, of course, I’ve heard of both of those players. This seems quite compelling to me. What do you Atlanta guys say about that?
Atlanta Braves: He sucks.
Arbitrator: I see.
Atlanta Braves: We can show you numerous charts that prove his suckiness but basically you can trust us on this. He sucks.
FP: Yeah? Well, if he sucks so much, how come he has played 86 more games than any other Braves player since July 7, 2005?
Arbitrator: Excellent question.
Atlanta Braves: It’s mostly because we kind of suck too.
Arbitrator: Interesting.
FP: Sir, we are giving you hard numbers here, and they just keep saying he sucks. Jeff played five more games than any other player on their team last year.
Arbitrator: I think I get where you are going with …
FP: He plays a lot. He played every game in 2006 and 2007. Whenever someone said, “Hey Jeff, go in there and play,” he went right in there and, you know, played, no matter the situation. Jeff is always willing to play. We have all the numbers.
Arbitrator: Do you have anything more to say?
Atlanta Braves: He really sucks.
FP: We would ask the distinguished gentlemen from Atlanta to stop saying that.
Arbitrator: I would tend to agree. Do you have any proof that Mr. Francoeur sucks?
Atlanta Braves: Well, yes, we did bring along our Jeff Is Sucky File. Jeff hit .239 last year. That sucks. He walked 39 times and struck out 111. That hoots. He slugged .359. That stinks. He has a 72 OPS+, and while we in Atlanta do not care much for advanced statistics, we are told that reeks. His .294 on-base percentage was worst among all outfielders except for some guy in Houston named Michael Bourn, and quite frankly none of us had ever heard of him. So that sucks. He hit 11 home runs. That sucks. He was sixth in the league in outs. That sucks. He stole zero bases, not that we expected him to be super speedy, but zero stolen bases is still kind of sucky, would you not agree?
Arbitrator: It does sound a bit sucky, yes. And I have never heard of Michael Bourn either.
Atlanta Braves: We would also like to remind the honorable arbitrator that we are offering Jeff $2.8 million. And he sucks.
Arbitrator: Yes. Well, OK, final arguments.
Francoeur People: Jeff has played 479 games just the last three years. Only a couple of guys named Ichiro Suzuki and Grady Sizemore have played more. We are sure you have heard of those two stars of the baseball diamond. We also estimate that Jeff played about 1,400 hours of baseball the last three years. That’s a lot. And that does not even include batting practice, the time it takes him to dress, drive time to the ballpark and so on. It really is a whole lot less per hour than you would think. And no overtime. Also, he has played in front of more than 14 million people those three years … we had an intern add that up.
Arbitrator: Thank you for your well-prepared case. And Atlanta ..
Atlanta Braves: He sucks.
Arbitrator: Yes. I’ll be back in a minute with my decision. Or 30 seconds.
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Very funny Joe. Very, very funny. You might want to reread it and tighten it up a little, lots of typos, but still extremely funny.
Only thing that would make if funnier would be if the Atlanta rep said something like the following: “He sucks so much we tried to pawn him off on the Royals, but they decided to go with a sucky first baseman from the Marlins instead”.
I wish real arbitration sessions were this much fun. You usually only get to say what you really think when the other party has left the room.
I’d have had the Atlanta Braves respond to one of the last requests that they not say “he sucks” with “he blows”.
And in all fairness, wouldn’t FP have cited some defensive statistics to explain by JF played all those games? They would also have cited that 2008 was clearly the worst of Francoeur’s career and perhaps suggested that if he hadn’t played even while injured (helping his club that needed him in the lineup) his numbers would have been more like his first three seasons, which are fairly decent.
And they certainly could have responded to one of the “He sucks” with “He didn’t suck in 2006, when he hit 29 homers”, leading to the Braves responding “So you agree that he sucked in 2008?”</p?
Now to be somewhat serious. Isn’t arbitration, especially for young players, supposed to consider their entire career to date? Or does it only focus on the immediately preceeding season?
It’s refreshing to know that there are people out there who have never heard of Michael Bourn. As a long suffering Astros fan, I’d love to be part of that group.
Do you guys think that just anyone can write this stuff? Would you tell Springsteen to change a lyric? Stay out of Joe’s kitchen when he is cooking the blogs.
Excellent post! This is my favorite Joe genre, the whole “retelling the true story” thing he does occasionally.
To Richard, unfortunately for Jeff, his people really couldn’t say he didn’t suck in 06. While the 29 homers didn’t suck, the .293 OBP (yeah, OBP, not BA) sucked so much that it canceled out his homers, leaving him with an OPS+ of 87. Let’s be honest – dude had a nice rookie year (small sample size, anyone?) and his three full years have been sucky, average, and disastrously sucky, respectively.
Great post.
I have absolutely no problem with baseball salaries, but I do wonder in a case like this if it’s at all awkward or embarrassing to ask for a raise that’s $1M+ more than than the $2M+ raise you’ve already been offered, when, as the post indicates, you suck.
Joe- you gotta fix the strikeout count. I thought he had a redeeming quality for just a second there.
“sucky, average, and disastrously sucky”
Sounds a lot like my three years in graduate school…
God, the poor Braves! I thought only the Pirates had such “sucky” NL players. I think Sucky Jeff must have stuck out more than 11 (eleven?) times however….
I didn’t realize that these arbitration hearings were so much fun…How is it that they are not on any of my satellite stations? Starz or Spike or someone must have a time slot for these hearings. Maybe MLB network will sort of include them like C-span coverage?
“Yes, I’m here as an eyewitness to Jeff Francoeur’s playing ability. He sucks. Boom. Roasted.”
I know…Judge Judy needs some new material. Let her be the MLB arbiter in these hearings. Is Wapner dead?
I second the motion of Judge Judy.
Ouch! The truth hurts. Why does Atlanta still play this guy? They must have someone at least this “good” who’ll play for the league minimum in the minors.
OK Joe, I know this was a gag from the jump but it hit me wrong, first time one of your posts felt… I don’t know – beneath you. Why call him out? He HAS played all those games. And y’know as much as he “sucks”, he’s a better ball player than 99.5% of all human beings. AND if Andruw Jones can get what he got from LA, Jeff deserves a few hundred grand more. (Other examples abound) It’s a relative world and relatively speaking, this is a pretty minor thing.
Hey, in today’s poll there’s no option for us guys with really shaggy beards who don’t shave.
Joe:
You MUST know of Michael Bourn. He was the key component in the Phillis/Astros Brad Lidge deal. He was the speedy 4th OF for the Phillies who embodied Willie Mays Hayes–no discernable skills beyond stealing bases.
And can you believe that people in Philly were actually mildly pissed that they “gave up” on Bourn after that trade was announced? Ed Wade: still the worst GM to have 10 years experience on a big league level.
“Atlanta Braves: It’s mostly because we kind of suck too.”
That’s the best point made here, I wonder how often that gets brought up in these arbitration hearings?
Justyo: I’m reminded of the elderly folks of a certain persuasion describing a restaurant that they go to for the early bird special…
Wife: “The food is terrible.
Husband: “Yeh, and the portions are so small!”
The Braves do have to mention that Jeff was once on the cover of Sports Illustrated with the headline “The Natural.”
Man does that look foolish now.
Joe, thanks for providing Dayton Moore with all the evidence he needs to go out and trade for Francoeur now. You can bet it’s pretty much a done deal.
It probably won’t cost much. Just Joakim Soria, because, you know Moore, all relievers are expendable after one good year for a guy who doesn’t get on base.
You guys that throw away a disposable razor after less that 10 uses must be making Jeff “Sucky” Francoeur kind of money! Hell, in these harsh economic times I’m beginning to use one of those damn razors until I can scrap away enough skin to catch sight of the roots of my teeth!
Hey, I’m a MLB player. Surely you’ve heard of me. Oh wait, I play in that national media black hole known as Houston. At least Ed Wade’s heard of me. Oh wait, he’s not a MLB GM…….
For that poll you need to have an option, “I don’t shave.”
Mark W. #19 I worked in an upscale restaurant with twilight menus, they do complain about the portions and then to top it off they don’t tip worth a damn…
In the current climate of steroid testing and hysteria it is unfortunate that even an average player like Frenchie could have one sucky (and it was awful) season and suddenly the 2.0 finger is being pointed at them….not by experts I might add but me and my baseball buddies, his fall off was cliff edge like.
Pay packets for players should be based solely on incentives and production clauses, batting over .270, striking out less than 65 times etc., instead of the A. Jones madness.
By my reckoning he would have had trouble breaking $100k last season…
I prefer to say he eats instead of sucks for blows.
This reminds me of the famous negotiation between Marvelous Marv Throneberry and the Mets after the ‘62 season:
Marv: People came to the park to holler at me; I drew people to the games like Mickey Mantle did for the Yankees.
Mets: You drove thousands away, too.
Marv: I played in the most games of my career, 116.
Mets: But you didn’t play well in any of them.
I think there is a reality TV series in here somewhere. How many of us would watch millionaire major leaquers fighting it out with their billionaire employers over whether they should get $2 million a year to play a game or $4 million; when the end result is us paying $120 a game to take the family or $140 a game?
Homer: Two pizzas for the price of one at Doughy’s!
Lisa: Doughy’s has terrible pizza.
Homer: Yeah, but there’s TWO!
While I’m sure SI’s greatest regret involving a baseball-related cover story was awarding McGwire and Sosa Sportsmen of the Year (and having them pose in all their roided up glory on the cover), putting Frenchie on the cover in 2005 after 1 month in the bigs and calling him “The Natural” has got to chafe a bit.
Sorry Stringer Bell, that’s what I get for not reading all the comments.
This is the best blog ever.
Alright, I’m going to introduce a mnemonic device. You, number 7–Sucky: Sucky-vacuum-clean-shave-nick-nickel-Jefferson…Jeff!
Francoeur People: If he sucks why do you choose to play him so often? It’s your choice, no one made you put him in the lineup every day for three years. The answer to that is because you know he has a ton of potential. It’s right there in the numbers. He hit 62 major league home runs and had two seasons over 100 RBI before he even turned 24. He’s been good defensively and has a strong arm and is still young.
He’s struggled for the past year year and a half, but that’s mostly due to injuries that he played through. If the Braves hadn’t asked him to keep playing, he might have recovered completely and done better. But you kept asking him to play through the injuries, and he did. He’s feeling better now and will probably go back to being a good defensive RF who bashes a lot of home runs like he used to.
This guy has 73 homers in the majors through age 24, he’s been a gamer who’s played through pain, and he’s only asking for relatively small money compared to other starting right fielders in baseball.
Replace Francouer with Mike Jacobs and its essentially the same hearing.
Only thing that would make if [sic, but you're the one that said he should 'tighten it up'] funnier would be if the Atlanta rep said something like the following: “He sucks so much we tried to pawn him off on the Royals, but they decided to go with a sucky first baseman from the Marlins insteadâ€.
Brent, that wouldn’t be funnier. It would be stupider.
I second comment 10 on putting arb hearing on MLB network. Either they’d be eerily similar to Joe’s post or they’d be serious and we could see which teams have any idea what they are talking about. Good times.
@ Ryan #35: Except Jacobs’ 2008 OPS was 170 points higher than Francoeur’s. Also, I wanted to note that McLouth’s arbitration figures are eerily similar to Francouer’s: McLouth submitted 3.8, the Bucs 2.75.
Joe and readers,
Did you see the column JC Bradbury did on Frenchy a few weeks ago? He said that Francoeur’s Marginal Revenue Product, economist speak for how much additional revenue he thinks Jeff brought in for the Braves last year was $14million. Now in a free market the player should get to keep all of that, Bradbury thinks that Francoeur is actually worth about what the Braves are offering, not the negative amount his below replacement level performance indicates. So many people called out Bradbury for this that he cut off comments to his blog! (How canyou have a blog without comments?) While he has done some good work since, such as a look at A-Rods HR’s before, during, and after his Texas years, his reaction to criticism here cost a lot of my respect for him.
@ ZR (#17) – There was no one in Philly mildly pissed about giving up Michael Bourn. No one. People were a bit skeptical at the time about Lidge taking over at closer, but we knew at the time that we gave up nothing to get him.
Francoeur’s weird last name should be up for arbitration. Saying it makes my mouth do funny things I don’t like.
Very funny. Probably not too far from the real thing.
As a die-hard Braves fan, I think I need to speak.
To be sure, Francoeur is maddening to watch: he is physically unable to take a first pitch (and every ML pitcher knows this so they throw him crap…that he flails at); he is a Vlad-like hacker without the Vlad-like plate coverage; he is speedy (believe it or not) but gets thrown out in every SB attempt (which are few); he seems to not have great pitch recognition; and, most importantly, he lives in his head too much…when things have gone south, he starts overthinking and gets all out-of-whack. Last year was just awful to watch.
That said, he plays a nice RF and has a great arm. He’s also (and I know that PECOTA doesn’t measure this and it may not matter) a really great guy…I CAN ASSURE you that he WANTS to be everything he thinks he can be…he works hard…first in, last out, talk to everyone for pointers (which could be a problem, see above about him being in his head too much).
While I understand that OBP is something (typically) that players don’t improve dramtically on…which Frenchie would have to do to get to be a “decent” VORP guy…as a Braves fan, I don’t want them to give up on him yet. He’s a guy who, besides being a highly-recruited DB (committed to Clemson) out of HS, was widely regarded as a top-10-15 pick MLB draft talent out of HS…he lasted til the Braves picked him (23rd) because teams figured they couldn’t sign him as he was going to play 2 sports at Clemson.
That’s all to say, he’s 25 with a ton of athletic ability. Maybe they rushed him. The Braves player development system is usually pretty good, maybe he can get straight…the tools are there. Maybe not…but maybe so.
As and aside, my son (9) shares a b-day with Francoeur and when I took him to the Braves Fanfest last year for his b-day (with 6 friends), Frenchie was overly generous with his time with my son when hy son wished Frenchie happy b-day. Totally made an 8 year-old’s b-day.
#43Black Francis: Well, that settles it. Judge Judy rules FOR “Frenchy” Francoeur and says, “Give him the $3.95Mil because he’s a good chap who wants to perform and get better, he’s good with the kids and I dig any young stud who answers to ‘Frenchy’.”
Case closed. Next on Judge Judy’s docket….Did the young lady in the pink halter top steal lip gloss from her blind grandmother? Grandma’s Labrador Retriever may be the only witness…Stay tuned. More Judge Judy after these messages…
Francoeur actually has two decent seasons under his belt: 2005 – his rookie season – and 2007. But he also has two rather horrible seasons: 2006, and of course this last season.
Compare the two sets:
(A) 899 ABs, 294/337/474 with OPS+ of 126 and 103
(B) 11250 ABs, 250/295/406 with OPS+ of 87 and 72
Very different players, though neither can take a walk.
I don’t think he should win his arbitration case. But I don’t think we should jump up and down on him either. The guy is only 25, he never played above AA ball in the minors, and he has shown enough ability at the major league level (in two out of four seasons) to earn a bit of latitude. Maybe he will never learn to take a walk or steal a base, but if he can produce at his 2005/2007 levels instead of his 2006/2008 levels, then he’d certainly become a productive player.
Of course, on the other hand, his Slugging percentage has decreased every year he has been in the majors, his strikeouts have remained fairly constant, and he has shown absolutely no ability to restrain himself at the plate. So maybe he will just end up another tantalizing bust.
Fangraphs provides even more insight into his value by season.
2005: $10 million, 2.9 value wins
2006: $3.1 million, 0.8 value wins
2007: $15.1 million, 3.7 value wins
2006: negative $5.4 million, negative 1.2 value wins
His 2006 value was all defense. All defense. And his 2007 value was largely defense. Last season even his defense sucked, and his batting really sucked, hence the negative value.
Ed Wade as a terrible GM is a popular misconception. Nobody could stand the guy in Philly while he was here and he seemed to overstay his welcome by about three years. However, history has been kind to him. The entire core of the World Champion Phillies (Rollins, Utley, Howard, Burrell, Hamels, Myers, Madson, Ruiz) were Ed Wade guys. Gillick came in and made some great trades, FA signings, waiver pickups and they won a title. The Bourne trade was Ed Wade making one last move to put the Phils over the top. Thank-you Ed.
If I were Jeff, I’d take a million dollars for getting through spring training.
Sad to say that I have heard on Bourn. I needed steals in my Roto league and traded for the bum. Come to think of it…it’s amazing that Berkman had a great 2008 considering Bourn and Kaz were batting ahead of him for the majority of the year. I even think Erstad took over for Bourn as the year went on. Yikes!
As a Mets’ fan, I was a little puzzled by this.
It turns out his OPS is .881 vs NYM last year in 69 PA and .852 in 223 PA for 2006-8.
He earns his dough against us…
#47
Ed Wade, and most GMS, has little to do with drafting/player development. Every single one of those players was a scouting and player development product, so you can thank Mike Arbuckle+scouting department for that. All Ed Wade did, was not trade Ryan Howard for Kip Wells
Oh and Scott Rolen for Mike Timlin Bud Smith and Placido Polanco.
Placido Polanco For Ugueth Urbina.
Curt Schilling for Travis Lee Nelson Figueroa Omar Daal and Vicente Padilla.
If you’re talking about unfortunate SI cover choices, this Royal must be in the discussion:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/specials/playoffs/2007/10/22/keith.clinthurdle/
If he wins the arb. case, will the Braves cut him?
P.S. He only played so much because he whines when they don’t play him. He should not be facing RHP away from the adoring home fans.
Thats a sucking great column. Sucky Jeff. Good times. Go Phillies!
Humm I agree…he sucks..you forgot to add up all those poor stranded team mates left to rot on the bases that Frenchy(sucks() left …it led to at least a dozen lost…lets see we could have had 84 wins if such a sucky player had just stayed in dugout…..or at least had batted 255 …it was bad yes he sucked …2.9 million for someone who sucked so bad God lets see I have cancer and im a tallented professional photographer..and I dont suck…GO BRAVES 2009!!
Francoeur was nice to my son at a ball game once. Not only did he sign a baseball and take a photo, he grabbed Yunel Escobar and got him to sign the ball, too. A huge deal for a 13-year-old.
He’s not a great hitter. And he sure could benefit from learning the strike zone. But he was really nice to my kid. I hope he has a great year.
Once one’s beard gets to be entirely white, one can extend the life of a Bic disposable beyond 10 days (if not 10 shaves) by the simple expedient of not shaving every single day. My studies have shown that every third day is entirely possible and even four days MAY be possible depending on the water pressure in one’s bathroom sink. Beyond that, one is forced to use one’s toothbrush to clear the clog from one’s blade. This may be a minor inconvenience to the truly thrifty, but can provide an insumountable obstacle to less highly motivated individuals.
Can you believe he got 3.375 million?
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AoYi_JmcwQ9Z4nlNoCWgMasRvLYF?slug=ap-braves-francoeur&prov=ap&type=lgns
So, Jeff Francouer is to get an additional $25K if he reaches 685 plate appearances….Two thoughts: 1. That’s not much of a bonus so good for the Braves for not being goofy and overly generous about a crazy incentive. 2. Unless Jeff’s having a great year I would assume that the manager knows of this measly incentive clause (he’s probably updated regularly by the Braves stat geek/bean counter) and he would manage Jeff’s # of plate appearances accordingly.
Third thought: Why don’t teams inject another type of incentive clause in a contract like this that is more likely going to add more incentive for the player to perform well rather than rewarding frequency of plate appearances? Runs scored + RBI + walks + sacrifices, etc… I have no idea what a fair total number this might amount to but the stat geek/bean counter does…Maybe 250?
[...] Read the whole thing here. [...]
[...] is, right? To give an idea of “Frenchy’s†ineptness, I turn it over to the one and only, Joe Posnanski Francoeur has requested a salary of $3.95 million, and Atlanta has offered $2.8 million. As their [...]
Yay! Now the New York Mets have their very own Jeff Francoeur!
At least he an help reduce their team OBP, as the Mets strive to be mediocre or worse in every facet of the game! Go Mets!