Baseball’s Greatest Winner
Posted: February 3rd, 2009 | Filed under: Baseball | 137 Comments »
OK, you’ll probably figure this out pretty quickly, but here we go …
I’m thinking of a baseball player who has never played for a losing team. Not even once. Well, that’s not technically true: He played very briefly for a terrible team when he was 21, a team that had been terrible for a very, very long time. Then, the next year, his rookie year, that terrible team became instantly great. And he helped lead his team to the World Series the very next year.
The guy has never, ever played for a loser since. Not ever. He carried his teams to the playoffs 10 times in his 15 full seasons, and four times those teams went to the World Series. His teams, over his rather lengthy career, have a .578 winning percentage, which is rather incredible. That’s about 94 wins per year. That’s better than Bobby Cox’s winning percentage, way better than Sparky Anderson’s* or Joe Torre’s or Tony LaRussa’s. It’s a tick better than Jack Morris’ career winning percentage, and this guy wasn’t a pitcher. This guy played every day.
But it’s even more than his winning percentages. He helped turned around the fortunes of one dying franchise. He helped end one of the longest droughts in American sports. He turned around a third team instantly after being traded there. This isn’t like the story of Derek Jeter, who wins every year but always for the New York Yankees. No. Wherever this guy goes, no matter the tradition, no matter curses, no matter anything, his teams win. HIs teams win big.
You could argue based on all this, that this player is the greatest winner of his generation. We all know that one player in baseball cannot make the whole difference, one player cannot turn a bad team into a good one. But you can’t argue with the man’s record. He’s a winner. He might even be THE winner.
And so, picture that winner in your mind. Imagine how he must play the game. He’s a World Series MVP. He’s a preposterously good clutch hitter — the guy hits 30 points higher with runners in scoring position than he does with no runners on base. He has hit lots and lots of grand slams. He throws out base runners at the plate — he twice led the league in outfield assists. Can you see him? Can you feel his clubhouse presence? Can you sense how many little things he must do to help the team win?
What does baseball greatest winner look like anyway? A little bit of Clemente? A little bit of Rose? A little bit of Eckstein? He is exactly what every baseball team wants, a guy who performs in the big moments, a guy who doesn’t just know how to win but a guy who has won, a guy who always wins, no matter the team, no matter the city, no matter the history, no matter what. The biggest winner around.
What does he look like? Think about it: He must run out every ground ball. He must play defense with passion. He must have a supreme level of concentration — he has to come to play every single day. His teammates must love him. His manager must sing his praises daily. He must not care about his own numbers. He must not ever lose his focus.
Yes. The guy’s a winner.
You already knew that this was MannyBManny Ramirez.
* * *
Show your work section:
MannyBManny’s career record: 1363-997 (.578 winning percentage).
MannyB’s core numbers with the bases empty: .299/.386/.568
MannyB’s core numbers with runners in scoring position: .329/.454/.607
Cleveland Indians record year before his rookie season: 76-86.
Cleveland Indians record his first two full seasons: 166-91 (.646 inning percentage)
Boston Red Sox World Series victories from 1919-2001 (when MB arrived): 0.
Boston Red Sox World Series victories from 2001-2008 (the MB era): 2.
2008 Los Angeles Dodgers record when MannyB arrived: 54-54.
2008 Los Angeles Dodgers record after MannyB: 30-24, playoff sweep of Cubs, loss to Phillies in NLCS (though MannyB hit .533).
MannyB had 19 outfield assists in 1996, 17 assists in 2005.
MannyB has 20 career grand slams, behind only Lou Gehrig’s 23.
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Oh thank god we are done with the Srpingsteen posts. Bring on the hate, but someone had to say it.
Manny hit his 20th grand slam on July 5, 2005. I was sure he would get past Gehrig then, now I’m not so sure.
I seriously thought you were talking about David Justice at first. Did he ever play for a losing team in his career other than perhaps his first year with Atlanta? He went to the playoffs every year of his career after ‘91, I think.
The Royals should sign him.
You could add that he is (maybe was, now) one of the most beloved characters of his era. Known around baseball for his harmless antics such as high fiving a fan while making a catch, losing his diamond stud earing while sliding into third and then holding up the game to look for it, cutting off throws from center field and breaking his silence with the media to explain how he knows he’s a bad man.
And yet he gave up on his team, his teammates and his fans when he wasn’t happy with his contract situation.
That makes him Baseball’s Greatest LOSER!
On Baseball Tonight a couple months ago, John Kruk was asked who he would rather have on his team, Mark Teixeira. He chose Teixeira, not because he was younger, or was better defensively, or was less of a distraction. He chose Teixeira because he was “a winner”.
Mark Teixeira, of course, had never been in the playoffs before last year. He had never finished above 3rd place before last year. Yet because he is white, he’s a “winner”.
B.E. Earl @ 6 – that is an entirely subjective claim that is in no way borne out by the statistics he put up that month .. if that’s quitting on a team, I’d love for my team to have 9 quitters on the field every day .. they’d win the WS most years
@ B.E. Earl
When exactly did he give up on his team? He was a monster before the Dodgers trade, too.
As someone who got watch Manny all the time, I will honestly say that he is the greatest hitter I’ve ever seen live (although I did see a few games in the mid-late ’90s when Seattle would come to town and I got watch Griffey Jr hit, but that was maye a total of 7 ABs).
He did make the Red Sox a far better team than we could have hoped when signing him in the winter of 2000, but no one would have imagined – or believed – the amount of frustration that he would also bring.
I would love to see a team like KC sign him for 2009, if only to see how he plays for a full season knowing that he needs to play for another payday (and I don’t mean the candy bar).
“There is no great genius without some touch of madness.”
- Seneca, Epistles
Roman dramatist, philosopher, & politician (5 BC – 65 AD)
Hello Joe. Another great blog post.
I must say, I thought you were talking about Mr October Reggie Jackson. How do Reggie’s stats measure up to Manny’s? I don’t follow baseball as closely as most of your bloggers do. However, I think Reggie and Manny are similar – not the type of player you instantly associate as a winner (one-dimensional was the first term that popped into my mind), but all the evidence says they are winners.
I was a Manny fan for many years, even when those around me would complain about him and moan about how frustrating he was. I would argue with those people, because I saw a man who hit, hit well, and hit well when it mattered. He wasn’t as bad in the field as his detractors liked to say, although he was guilty of less than 100% effort at times.
I laughed at his antics and relished his talent.
Yet, when he slapped a teammate in the dugout, and shoved the team’s traveling secretary to the floor, I stopped being a fan. I will always respect his talent, and I am grateful for the show he put on while he was in Boston, but I will never again be a fan.
Manny is definitely a winner. I also most definitely agree he was dogging it before being shown the door in Boston. On the other hand, I think they went way out of their way to paint him as a villain. I am not sure why it is, but the Sox tend to show their stars in a bad light when they want to get them out of town (or if they just leave)(see Carlton Fisk,Wade Boggs, Roger Clemens, Nomar, Mo Vaughn, Pedro, Manny, somewhat Johnny Damon who isn’t much of a star). The only stars I can’t remember this happening with are Dewey Evans who was old and Fred Lynn who had fallen from star status. I would guess it is to soften up the fans to the fact that the player is gone or will be gone. Either way, I will take the whole “he quit on his team” thing with a grain of salt.
“I would love to see a team like KC sign him for 2009, if only to see how he plays for a full season knowing that he needs to play for another payday”
So you’re basically implying that Manny has never once in his career tried for an entire season, that he has amassed all the numbers he has with a spotty work ethic and erratic focus, with his only salvation being his love for candy bars. Wow. If that’s the case, count me in also as someone who wants to see what Manny could do only he if tried hard all the time. Manny has been the luckiest player that he’s played all the way to age 36 and hasn’t yet deteriorated from a lack of a work ethic.
People saying Manny didn’t give up on the Sox should know he refused to play the Yankees when doctors could find nothing wrong with him. From espn:
“For weeks leading up to the July 31 trading deadline, Ramirez had been complaining of pain in his right knee. After he told Boston manager Terry Francona that his knee was too sore to play on July 25, the Red Sox’s front office ordered an MRI exam during that night’s game against the Yankees.
But on the way to the exam, Ramirez, according to sources, couldn’t remember which knee was sore. So the Red Sox had both of his knees examined. The MRIs revealed no damage in either.”
Not that I am arguing with Joe’s point.
Um, I would never in a million years want to see Wilco at the Superbowl halftime show. However, I would LOVE to see the White Stripes.
I am dismayed at the “Wilco/White Stripes” choice. Dismayed.
[...] You could argue based on all this, that this player is the greatest winner of his generation. We all know that one player in baseball cannot make the whole difference, one player cannot turn a bad team into a good one. But you can’t argue with the man’s record. He’s a winner. He might even be THE winner.” – Joe Posnanski on Manny Ramirez [...]
Joe, et. al., we Sox fans already knew Manny was a winner, when he played. And all ever wanted from him was to show up on the field and win.
But last year he decided — in the middle of a season — that he would threaten to quit playing to force a trade because he didn’t like his contract. If you had a team of guys like that, you couldn’t win a beer league softball tournament.
Personally, I’d like to see Neil Young. I’m not sure how he would go over at the Super Bowl, however. “Rockin in the Free World” might be his only Super Bowl friendly hit single. There might be some perverse pleasure in knowing that little girls all over the world could be asking “Can I be a cinnamon girl, mommy?”
The White Stripes are a fifth the band that Wilco is – bad combo there Joe.
Kevin | February 3rd, 2009 at 11:18 am [#4]
The Royals should sign him.
+1
@ SB
I think a team of Manny Ramirez’s would be the best softball team in history. Even better than Mr. Burns team.
Pair The Hold Steady with The Gaslight Anthem and I’m in.
Is there any real objective evidence he “gave up” on the team? And if he did, while that’s wrong, I can’t entirely blame him. He won two World Championships for the BoSox and all they did was hang him out to dry.
Alright, I guess I’m going to beat this horse to death since I posted about this same band– twice!– in the iconic songs Hall of Fame post, so be it. You need iconic acts to play in the halftime show and The Killers or Coldplay (as much as I both of them) don’t cut it. And Bob Dylan and Neil Young? I own a ton of their stuff, but c’mon, they are not right for the Superbowl. AC/DC, on the other hand, would be perfect. How many songs do they play, four? Start, with ‘Hells Bells’ or ‘Thunderstruck’, then ‘If You Want Blood’ (if they have to play some newer stuff, ‘Runaway Train’ wouldn’t be a bad choice), followed by ‘Shook Me’, and then, for the epic finale, some ‘For Those About to Rock’ complete with the multiple cannon salute finale.
Personally, I’d take Chipper Jones (.580)1370-992 over the same time frame.
Of course the Braves have had a couple of losing seasons sprinkled in.
Manny’s offensive numbers are a bit better: 155 Career OPS+ vs Chipper’s 145 but Chipper has played a much more difficult position for most of his career.
You could also look at two other interesting stats involving Manny’s teams. For one, the teams he’s been on have been near or at the top of the league in offense each year.
And second, he was in Cleveland for their consecutive sellout streak, and Boston for theirs. I’m sure there’s a fun stat nugget there, like % of home games a player’s played in front of a sellout crowd.
From July 1st to July 30th, Manny Ramirez played in 22 of his team’s 24 games. During that stretch of time, ManRam put up this line:
.347/.473/.587/1.060
Supposedly he refused to board a plane and forgot what knee to hobble on. And yet, the guy dragged his dread-head out onto the field in 22 of 24 games and hit about as well as one can hit. I personally don’t care if he was pouting or whatever. He was doing what he’s been doing for years…being weird and hitting the crap out of the ball. I’m not condoning what he did, but you can’t quit on your team and hit that well. It’s not possible.
This just became my favorite baseball site and my favorite baseball writer!!! FINALLY a baseball writer actually does his job and talks about what an out-of-this-world baseball player manny is!
If he isn’t signed by spring training and the dodgers still have the only offers out there then i will be ready to hold a rally. the OBVIOUS collusion is absolutely outrageous. we are investing a lot of time, money and energy into these teams mlb is telling us it’s all just a joke.
Let’s put it to the test! The Royals must sign Manny now!!!
Pete Rose holds the record for playing in the most winning games. I’ll take Rose and ManRam on my team any day.
That’s a pretty selective use of stats. Sure Manny is better when there are players in scoring position but so is everyone.
2008 AL with Bases Empty: .261/.324/.412
2008 AL with RISP: .273/.358/.422
Further, just because a runner is on base doesn’t mean that the at-bat is a clutch at-bat. The team could be blowing the other team out and the at-bat might not matter.
Manny’s Numbers in Close & Late Situations (after the 7th inning, game within one run): .276/.410/.491
Manny’s Numbers in Throwaway Situations (when a team is leading by at least 5 runs): .316/.408/.608
Manny’s performance relative to his output in Close & Late Situations (tOPS=80) is lower than league average in Close & Late Situations (tOPS=92)
I’m still scratching my head trying to figure out how he came in 3rd in the ‘99 MVP race. I’ve barely got any hair left.
Hey, I’d take him on the Mets in a cold minute, no matter how weird he acts. Three years, $65 mil? Why not? Hell, I’d even build a special door in left field for him to duck into when he wanted to take a leak. He’ll be better at 39 than Moises Alou was at 42 last season. I mean, Fernando Tatis was a great story last season but I’m perfectly comfortable with him and Church as a platoon, if the reason is Manny B Manny. (Or heck, Adam Dunn. Guys? Omar? Bueller? Anyone?)
The Hold Steady would be awesome — but the Killers? Not so much. (Although the Hold Steady would have been perfect this year, what with all their Ybor City references.)
Re: Joao. You really think Joe’s ever going to be done with Springsteen posts?
“People saying Manny didn’t give up on the Sox should know he refused to play the Yankees when doctors could find nothing wrong with him. From espn:”
Ah yes, ’sources’. They’re never wrong!
I don’t believe for a second that Manny “gave up” on the Sox. They had been trying to trade him for years because of his big contract and I think they started a smear campaign when they decided they weren’t going to be able to get the trade they wanted. Year after year there was speculation Manny would be traded at the deadline and Manny always played well. I think it’s sad the Red Sox fans bought the owners bull so easily. His numbers don’t lie and he did a lot over the years for that franchise.
That said, I think his contract demands are absurd. He turned down a 1 year $25 Millon deal from the Dodgers today. I would love to see him in a Royals uniform, but everyone knows the Royals can’t come anywhere close to his asking price.
Manny will go down as one of the best, and arguably THE best, hitters of this generation.
Pairing THS with the Killers caused me physical pain. Though I would love to hear “Killer Parties” during the Super Bowl halftime show.
I voted REM, as they are a slightly younger band who are still well past their prime but could turn out a professional show with a few songs most people at home would recognize. Though they put on one of the most disappointing live shows I have ever attended. So it suits the Super Bowl perfectly.
Being a winner usually means having the good sense to be drafted by the Yankees.
Always being on a winner is harder than it sounds. My first two thoughts, other than Manny, were Lou Gehrig and Whitey Ford. Wrong. The Iron Horse’s rookie year was 1925, the year of the Babe’s famous stomach ache (or STD, whichever story you prefer to believe) and the Yankees won only 69 games that year. Whitey Ford managed to pitch just long enough to pitch for the bad Yankees teams of the mid 60s.
Next I thought Eddie Mathews, because I knew the Milwaukee Braves never had a losing record and knew that he spent his last couple years with a Detroit Tigers team that was pretty good in 1967-68, but his rookie year was with the Boston Braves, who unlike the Milwaukee Braves, were perenniel losers, and they only won 64 games that year.
Of course Derek Jeter and the other late 90s Yankees are on the list. Posada, Bernie Williams. I would guess Petitte (barely, the Astros were 82-80 in 2006).
First I thought it was Smoltz. Then when I realized it wasn’t a pitcher I thought it was Thome.
Manny always hits, hits teams win a lot of games. But there are always “sources” who love to tell stories about him.
I guess your opinion of him comes down to what you care about more, his performance and his team’s performance, or what the “sources” have to say.
I live in Boston and I’ve been an Indians fan my whole life. I love Manny Ramirez. Of all the Indians who got away, he was the one most worth breaking the bank for (even more than Thome, I’m sorry to say).
Amaizing, isn’t it? Manny showed us what he could do with the Dodgers when he actually busted his butt.
Manny will undoubtedly go to the Hall of Fame. But I can’t help but compare him to someone like Wayne Gretzky, who combined great talent with an astounding work ethic to actually transcend his sport and put him into a class all his own.
How does it go? The saddest words of all – what might have been?
Named sources have always said that Ramirez has a great work ethic, that he works harder on his hitting than anyone. And he vastly improved his play on balls off the Green Monster in his time in Boston. How did that happen if he didn’t work hard?
And what more “might have been”? I guess if he was a better closer, he would’ve got one more out in game 7 and won a title with the Indians in ‘97 and if he was the manager, even he would’ve taken out Martinez and he would’ve got to another World Series in 2003.
Why isn’t he also a great closer and a manager? Stupid work ethic always keeping him down like that.
One could write volumes on what we don’t know about Manny Ramirez. But if he did anything, its combine great talent with astounding work ethic. One thing everyone he’s played with has said, is he shows up every morning hours before everyone else is there and hits. Then he lifts. Then he hits some more, naps, whatever. He is, I firmly believe, certifiably nuts, and I hope one day we find out just what happened his last days in Boston. His work ethic though is maybe the best in the game and one of the few things about him that isn’t a mystery.
Joe has a not-so-secret man-crush on MannyB. If you don’t believe that, go read his SI column on Manny from a few months ago. Not that I’m deriding Joe for this, because I’m right there with him – this from a Boston fan who has finally come to realize that I will never quit Manny.
I think every controversial star nowadays reaches a point after which any debate is futile. Everybody has made up their minds, and any new evidence is shoehorned into their preconceived notions, regardless of how ill-fitting it might be.
I think the reactions to Manny’s time in L.A. indicate that time has arrived for him. The guy went .396/.489/.743, and so suddenly that becomes what he was capable of all along. Sure, he’s one of the top 10 right-handed batters in history, but if he’d only cared more he’d have been better than Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth put together.
Jimmy Key played on winning teams every year of his lengthy career until his last year with (I think) Baltimore. And he won Game 6 of the Series twice, with two different teams, to clinch the title.
And by current standards, the Hold Steady won’t be eligible to play until Super Bowl LXXII or so.
I always like those oddball trivial oddities like david justice went to the playoffs (or won a division maybe it was) for like 12 straight years.
my two favorite swings to watch in my generation, taking nothing else into consideration, and conveniently from each side of the plate are manny and jim edmonds(sorry, but it’s true)
you know whose quality concert versus just on the CD ratio is off the charts positive? Muse.
JOAO…AC/DC actually only has about four songs. There is a reason every junior high garage band in America starts with AC/DC songs. And I say that with love as I flip to the AC/DC playlist on my iPod. They would be perfect, actually, from a musical perspective but might struggle to get the context of the event.
Royals getting Manny is no weirder than the Chiefs getting Montana. Why not?
God, I wish Manny would come quit on the Twins for a couple of years. Would love to see what he could do slotted between Mauer and Morneau.
But why do that when we can trade Delmon Young for Jarrod Washburn (rumored today) and start Nick Punto 150 games at shortstop? Aieeee…
The central point is valid, that Manny has been a great player and has helped his teams win lots of games. But the argument from the fact that he has always been on winning teams is not really meaningful. For example, the year Manny left the Indians, they won one more game than in his last year there and won the division whereas they came in second the year before. Does that mean the Indians were better off without him? Or should we think A-Rod is not a winner because the year he left Seattle they won a record 116 games?
I too am suspicious of the stories about him quitting on his team, and I even guess that many of the stories painting him as nutty or strange are exaggerated, or even apocryphal, sort of like Yogi stories. But I cannot imagine anyone questioning his production.
Heyman, is that you? (j/k)
For some reason it occurred to me in the Clemente/Rose paragraph. Manny has had a hell of a run, but I think it is almost up.
If Boston had not let him go, the Red Sox would have beat Tampa Bay. No question in my mind. I love Jason Bay and hope he stays around for a while but he’s no Manny.
Jason Bay: missed 3 out of 52 (6%) games and hit .290/.370/.527
Manny Ramirez: missed missed 11 of 109 (10%) games and hit .299/.398/.529
Also, Bay played a much better LF and played all 49 games in LF whereas Manny only played 66 games in LF and spent the rest as DH.
Finally, in the post season Bay hit .341/.471/.634 and the Red Sox pitching staff gave up over 6 runs per game.
I was *sure* you were talking about Jeter.
Hey, you know who’s been on a division title winner every year of his 9-year career? For 3 different teams?
Jason Marquis.
nice trivia perry.
What kills me about the Manny quitting on his team flap is that what he did that last month was no different than the stuff he pulled his entire career. Heck, one of my buddies has always referred to him as “Hammy Ramirez” for his mysterious late in the season one day out of the lineup “hamstring pulls”.
Manny has always been that way, and the Red Sox knew what they were getting when they signed him, and furthermore, never had a problem with it until in came down to the point where they were going to have to:
(a) pick up his overpriced option, or
(b) let him go for nothing
Fortunately for the Red Sox, option (c) existed:
fire up the house organ about what a turd he was to provide the political cover in a contention year, and trade him for a year and a half of Jason Bay at below market prices.
Let’s not forget the 2008 AL East was the toughest division in recent memory. Manny went from that to the weakest division in baseball.
“Red Sox knew what they were getting when they signed him, and furthermore, never had a problem with it ”
except the annual put him on waivers or trade him for a rod proposals
Proof Manny Ramirez quit?
There was a game last summer against the Yankees. Manny didn’t start. He came in as a pinch hitter against Mariano Rivera and just stood there watching three pitches, all strikes, zoom by him.
The Manny Apologists will have an excuse for that:
“Rivera is just too good.”
“Rivera was filthy that day.”
“Manny was sick.”
Whatever. I think the proof is what happened – and what happened is he didn’t take the bat off his proverbial shoulder.
Also, Manny is known to loaf on ground balls – and at times his laofing has caused double plays. I don’t have the time or resources to find the instances, but I’ve seen it – as has anyone who has watched Manny Ramirez play a great deal.
Manny also hot dogs it, even when it doesn’t matter because for him, at least at times, it’s all about him – not the team.
I recall a game, also against the Yankees, when the Red Sox were down by a ton in the last inning and Manny hit a long homerun. He “styled” at the plate and around the bases.
These kind of behaviors are what turn people off to him.
Sure, he’s not the first, or last guy to be all about himself. he’s not the first or last to loaf on grounders. He’s not the first or last to play disinterested defense.
But he also wants, at 36, to be paid as if he is a 5 tool player. He’s not.
His history – his antics – have now come back to haunt him.
Sure, he can mash. Sure, he’s a winner. But he’s also a distraction. Many teams feel they don’t need Manny’s baggage.
How about a guy who hit: .276/.480/.565 with 28 homers his last year? He also couldn’t get a job the next season. That’s Barry Bonds. Teams didn’t want the circus that accompanied him – in spite of the production they’d get from him.
The circumstances are different, but, the idea is the same.
Bonds would have produced. Manny will produce. Teams are saying that the other parts of their game and their personality are not worth the on field production.
Manny quit on the Red Sox through his actions. It’s now costing him.
Two more points: In 2008, the Red Sox did not have a winning percentage of .600 or better when Manny was on the team.
With Manny, the Red Sox were 61-48 (.560).
In August and September, the Red Sox were 34-19 (.642).
People say, “I’d take that production from 9 players…” when they defend Manny. Last July, when Manny was causing the distractions, the Red Sox were 11-13. Yes, an under .500 team. In August, they went 18-9 (.667).
You don’t want 9 Manny’s on your team, not because he’s not great when he’s motivated. It’s because you never know from day to day if he’ll be motivated.
It’s relatively easy to be on winning teams year after year when you’re on the same one for many years and that team happens to be very good–like Jeter on the Yankees. Manny hasn’t been on too many teams either.
More impressive to me is Kenny Lofton. Between 1995 and 2007, his teams made the playoffs every year except for 2000 and 2005. And he switched teams like eleven times in that span. And his teams weren’t too bad the two years he missed the playoff. The 2000 indians won 90 games and missed the wildcard by one game. And the 2005 Phillies won 88 games, again missing the wildcard by one game. In that 13 year span, his teams never finished below second place.
Manny has always been a strange guy. I thought he WAS a hard worker until last year. I even admired him for not letting the Red Sox’ complete lack of appreciation and yearly attempts to get rid of him affect his game. Then came last August……
I am not forgiving Manny for his antics-I think it was clear that he stopped trying- but I think he is Boras’ puppet. Boras wanted another big contract out of him and has been manipulating things to make it happen. I don’t know which one of them is most stupid for turning down a 1 year 25 million $ deal. Memories are short and one great year would make 3 or 4 more teams forget August and he would still get people fighting over him & bidding against each other next year.
I agree with Baseball Guy that teams avoided Bonds because they didn’t want to deal with the baggage that would come along with him. The worst part of that “baggage” was no doubt whatever sanctions the commissioner’s office threatened against any team that signed him. Honestly, you can’t convince me that there wasn’t a SINGLE team that wouldn’t want to take a chance on someone who could have made their team massively better. Especially if he would have signed for as little as his agent suggested.
If I were the GM of, say, the Blue Jays, I’d accept a bit of a media circus in exchange for a much better chance at the playoffs, especially after the team released Frank Thomas and had no one DH-worthy ready to step in.
Yes, he’s a class A jerk, and yes, if he’d kept playing, the wheels would have come off at some point, but that’s a move you kind of HAVE to make if you’re looking to contend and don’t have orders from on high that you can’t add the guy. And I don’t believe that EVERY front office would have turned away the best hitter of this generation and a likely attendance boost on principle. Not with all the other PED users and miscreants being rostered.
With Manny, salary’s the sticking point. If his price were cheap enough, there isn’t a team out there that wouldn’t be better with him in the lineup. Others have mentioned his stellar stats last July, when he “quit” on the Red Sox. The team’s 11-13 record likely has a bit more to do with Big Papi missing all but six games, Lowell putting up a .215/.286/.290 line, Varitek ringing up a .197/.293/.288 and the team on the whole having its worst offensive month despite Manny being his usual self at the plate than it does with Ramirez quitting on them.
Kanye would be a ballsy and awesome choice for SB halftime, and we can probably agree there’s no way it will ever happen. Good luck selling that to Bridgestone.
Bands that aren’t in the poll that I think we may see someday: The Who, Clapton, Plant and Page doing Led Zep songs, Pearl Jam.
Some of these choices are hilarious. Wilco would be fun just to hear the delightful sound of every rock critic in America masturbating simultaneously. Party time!
Best All-Jerk Lineup, recent memory version:
C AJ Pierzynski
1B Frank Thomas
2B Jeff Kent
SS Derek Jeter
3B Chipper Jones
LF Barry Bonds
CF Jim Edmonds
RF Gary Sheffield
DH Manny Ramirez
Not certain of a couple here. Almost went with A-Rod, but I don’t consider him a Jerk, just a guy who can’t get any love from the fans. And then there is Jeter, who is loved by many, yet who seems to be a bit of a jerk; plus I could not think of a better guy for SS. Maybe Michael Young after the “I won’t move” fiasco, but that blew over quickly, and I had never really heard people bad mouth him before.
Also, Frank Thomas, Barry Bonds and Jeff Kent are all retired, though only recently.
Anyone else have a lineup?
Actually, I guess I should say that Bonds is involuntarily inactive, not retired.
Maybe the Royals could bring in both Bonds and Manny. Dayton keeps talking about improving our OBP…
Oh my God. Now that I have started thinking about it, I really want Dayton to go get Manny and Bonds. I’d even consider moving back to KC, buying the cheapest season package, and so watching every single home game.
As a Braves fan, I’m genuinely surprised to learn that Chipper Jones is a jerk. Is that a common sentiment?
I don’t know, but I have always heard stories. You know, stories. He hits his wife. He is standoffish to the press who keep asking him whether he hits his wife. Yadda yadda yadda.
I really don’t know how much of it is true. Nor do I know whether it is a popular sentiment.
But I have heard it expressed on more than one occasion, and from more than one source. So I included him.
To be honest, my list isn’t a catalog of players who I think are jerks, just guys who I have heard are jerks.
Why would you double bill the Hold Steady and the Killers? I understand I can’t vote for Craig Finn and Co. anyway, just because they throw down too much of a Springsteen vibe, but the Killers? That would be death.
I personally approve that pun.
Sorry sorry sorry. Not that he hit his wife. That he had an affair and that things got really really bad.
Fuzzy details. Very fuzzy.
I really should stop smearing the man’s name.
Sorry.
Ted,
You have to find room for Milton Bradley and (especially) Elijah Dukes on your team.
Brett Myers and Shawn Chacon would be in my all-jerk starting rotation, with Kenny Rogers given a slot if the recently-retired rule is in effect.
I’d pick Ozzie Guillen as manager, though I’d also consider Tony LaRussa.
JP Ricciardi would likely get my GM nod. Mind you, this is all pending the approval of owner Hank Steinbrenner.
Ooh. Add Schilling to the rotation, too.
I heard Chipper Jones say the other night that he hated Bruce’s halftime performance — right before I witnessed him kick a puppy.
For the All-Jerk Team, You’d have to have Roger Clemens starting.
And Wade Boggs is a bigger All-Jerk than Chipper JOnes can ever hope to be.
Actually, I’d have Dave Justice in left and Bonds as DH (I know he was never DH but his last few years he should have been)
I’m not a Manny apologist, by any means, but to me he’s missing the essential quality of jerkyness: he’s not mean.
He’s a goof, he’s self-centered, he’s absent minded. He even quit on Boston last year, but he’s not a prick about it.
#80
See, that’s the kind of stuff my local media fails to report on. I have to ask, though — did the puppy need kicking?
From 1915-1934, Babe Ruth’s teams won 60.5% of the time – with winning records in 18 out of 20 seasons
He played in a total of 10 World Series, winning 7 of them.
Yankees WS appearances 1901-1919: 0
Yankees WS appearances 1920-1934: 7, winning 4
Before becoming the greatest hitter ever (207 career OPS+), he led the AL in shutouts (9) and ERA (1.75) in 1916, while finishing in the top 10 in WHIP and W-L% each year from 1916-18.
not exactly a lightweight…
“I heard Chipper Jones say the other night that he hated Bruce’s halftime performance”
Well in Larry’s defense, those TVs at Hooters don’t have very big screens.
@ baseball guy: you’re using the evidence of one at bat to make statements about a man’s character. think about that: one at bat.
oh, and some loafing and hot-dogging. brutal. never been seen before in baseball.
and what’s up with manny’s “proverbial” shoulder. i mean, perhaps having a bad case of proverbial shoulder made it hard for him to get around on rivera’s cutter that day.
again, in careers measured in thousands of ABs; you’re seriously bringing up one.
yg bluig,
Obviously, Clemens is a member of the all-time all-jerk team, but I considered him too long retired to merit consideration. Ditto Boggs and Justice. If we were to have an all-time team, the list would be much longer, with guys from Cap Anson through Ty Cobb to more recent players such as John Rocker and Albert Belle.
As for Manny, I wouldn’t nominate him based on the usual criticisms against him – the loafing, the space cadet nature, blah blah blah. Shoving Boston’s traveling secretary to the ground earns him some consideration, though.
There is a lot of back and forth about Manny. To me, the one telling thing is how his teammates regard him. According to news accounts last year, just prior to his trade, the veterans on the Red Sox (well-respected players who care about winning, like Mike Lowell, Jason Varitek, David Ortiz) met with the general manager and discussed l’ affaire Manny. They actually voted (according to report) and were unanimous that Manny must go.
Maybe they thought Manny must go before Terry Francona started to mutter to his shoes every day. But the overwhelming feeling was that Manny was not good for the team. This despite the fact that he is a great hitter, and that your line-up is better with him than without him. The fact is, the team was better without him than with him. When players vying for a World Series shot vote their best hitter off the island, something is very wrong with that hitter.
What about A.J. Pierzynski?
Pierzynski’s Career Record: 710-586 (.548)
2000 Twins: 69-93 (.426)
2001-02 Twins: 179-144 (.555)
White Sox World Series victories from 1917-2005 (before A.J. arrived): 0
White Sox World Series victories from 2005-2008 (since A.J. arrived): 1
Pierzynski’s performance in clutch situations: .298/.356/.460
Pierzynski’s performance in non-clutch situations: .280/.317/.370
Oh, I almost forgot…every team A.J. Pierzynski has played on has outperformed their expected W-L record, sometimes by about 10 games or more. That’s game-changiness in action.
We can now see the problem with any argument that labels a player a winner because his team has won lots of games with him or has gone from a losing to winning team when he arrived. It confuses coincidence with cause and effect. Fun trivia, but unfortunately it easily morphs into something more.
I’m a Red Sox fan and I want Manny back – no matter what the writers at the Globe say.
i love manny the player. as a fan i even loved the antics, but i watched manny in boston for several years, and the fact of the matter is, he just wasn’t a player the red sox could depend on.
it’s that simple.
manny plays when manny want’s to play. when he’s enjoying himself. take that away and he’s not the same player.
i think the red sox felt that if they were going to be paying that kind of money that they wanted a known commodity outside of the numbers as well as inside the numbers.
everything being even w/ manny, that catch he made in baltimore against the wall where he high-fived the fan then threw it in is my favorite baseball play ever.
Joao: Right on man. No more posts about Bruce until the next time he does a Super Bowl. Which will hopefully be never.
I kid, it was easy to skip those posts, just like it was easy to skip the halftime show.
//I’m a Red Sox fan and I want Manny back – no matter what the writers at the Globe say.//
I’m a Sox fan and I don’t give a crap what the writers at the Globe say.
But I DO care about what the players say, and it had apparently gotten to the point where all the talent in the world wasn’t going to make up for the fact that he was impossible to deal with as a teammate. Ballplayers will put up with a LOT when it gives them a chance to win, but apparently the balance had gone way beyond the tipping point.
And for the record, I wasn’t talking earlier about Manny’s work habits. I was talking about his habit of quitting on his teammates. If I was a professional athlete, that would be the one thing that would drive me insane. As Cam Neely said (why is it always hockey players who set the example), every time he stepped on the ice he was determined not to just play well, but be the best he could possibly be.
sansho1 — admittedly, the puppy was looking at him funny, so it may have had it coming.
Thank god we have the interweb so the truth about these athletes comes out.
Latest thing I’ve heard from the food and beverage service industry: Chipper tips for ****.
On Manny: I am still not convinced he quit on the Sox. Yeah, he played his mind out in LA, but it’s hard to imagine him keeping up those numbers over an entire season no matter how hard he’s trying. Even if it’s true, he can come quit on the Twins anyday he wants. Even when he’s “quitting,” he’s a better hitter than even Joe Mauer.
@ StephenVegas
Why is it unfair to judge a player on 1 action? If a player intentionally drops a ball in a critical situation I’m sure that action would define the rest of his career, as it should. Once a player so obviously quits on his team and his teammates, he gets a reputaion for that – and deservedly so.
And to all the posters here who say (to the effect) “I don’t care about that, I just want to see him on MY team” and “Based on his numbers I would pay him anything he wants” – I would say that this type of thinking is precisely the reason why you’re not in charge of player personnel for a professional baseball team.
Ted @ #71:
Jim Edmonds? Why Jim Edmonds? I know he sometimes styled it a bit, but other than that, what am I missing?
Or maybe I don’t want to know — I’m a Cardinals fan and aside from Pujols he’s my favorite Cardinal of the last several years.
What people who say “I wish Manny would quit on my team that way” are missing is that apparently what forced the Sox to get rid of Manny was their fear that he would refuse to play. No matter how well a guy hits when in the line-up, he’s not helping at all when he decides instead to sit on the bench and get paid. There were multiple reports at the time of the trade that that is just what Manny had threatened to do.
So yes, Manny had behaved badly. He had abused the team’s elderly traveling secretary and scuffled with teammates and may or may not have tanked a key at-bat against the Yankees. But what pushed the Sox over the edge was his perceived intention not to play down the stretch. Got that problem with Joe Mauer?
Ted’s list of jerks is odd because it has Jeter on it and A-Rod off it. I am a Red sox fan but even so, Jeter is hardly a jerk. He seems to be a great teammate who always tries his hardest and plays to win. A-Rod seems to care a lot less about winning. He left a great Seattle team for money, for example. The recent Torre book shows him as a jerk, but it is obvious on the field as well. Remember the incident with Arroyo in the playoffs, for example?
Fact check: The Red Sox did not “try” to trade Manny every year. Every year Manny asked to be traded sooner or later. The waiver deal was after one of those. Manny also dogged it frequently throughout his career, with mid or late-season “vacations.” ( a habit taught to him by Pedro Martinez). He turned the dogging incidents into a campaign last year when his NEW agent wanted to get him out of an option year. In one game he hit the longest single in the history of Fenway Park. With Ortiz on first, he hit a fly to deep center and immediately went into his home run trot. The ball did not go out but landed between two fielders. Ortiz, perhaps the slowest player on the team (but one of the most aggressive)ended up scoring on the play, while Manny was on first. Manny simply doesn’t really care about winning or losing. It might as well be one of those t-ball games
One poster here also claimed “obvious collusion.” That claim is similar to Jose Conseco claiming he was blackballed. The truth is that teams only put up with kooky players as long as they produce. When Conseco stopped producing, no one wanted to put up with his garbage. Similarly with Manny, no one is gonna want to put up big bucks on a long term contract after seeing how he acted in Boston last year to honor the out years in such a contract. Additionally, by alienating the Red Sox, he took both the Sox and Yankees out of the bidding. The Yankees might have been willing to pay the bucks if they were in a bidding war with the Sox, but without the threat of the big hitter going there, the Yankees have no real reason to go after him, particularly after seeing him act as a quitter.
After the A-Rod (last year) and Varitek debacles, it is fun to see scott Boras finally getting his comeuppance with Manny.
Jay Payton deserves to be on the all-jerk team as a benchwarmer (not good enough to start). He’s another person who quits on teams when he doesn’t get his way. As long as they are getting paid (and even the worst get paid quite a lot) they should ALWAYS try their best.
It is ridiculous to claim the Red Sox always degrade players when they leave. When players don’t get their way and leave, it is usually the player who does the degrading. Clemens, for example, was paid the highest pitcher salary at the time in his last years with the Sox. He wanted a pay raise and a long term deal even though his performance in those years were mediocre. When the team balked, while offering him a good deal, he went to Toronto and “mysteriously” began performing to a high level again.
During the Manny deal, the team was very quiet. Management only commented when Manny claimed the team had “dissed” him and treated him badly. The comment was only to counter that contention. manny wasn’t even suspended for his antics. The claim that the sox “bad-mouthed” Manny so they could get a good deal to get rid of him is ridiculous. The deal that was made was terrible. They lost two good rookies and had to still pay the quitter’s salary. That only shows how bad the team wanted to get rid of him. The contention that the sox would have beat the Rays with manny is silly. The team would not have even made the post-season if he had remained to tear the team’s morale apart.
“But what pushed the Sox over the edge was his perceived intention not to play down the stretch. Got that problem with Joe Mauer?”
If it’s true that Manny would have sat the last three months of the season, than yes, that’s a major issue. I remain completely unconvinced that that was ever the case, however. As noted, the Sox of a storied history of spinning the media against players on their way out of town. Crazy as Manny may be — and prone as he is to skipping school now and then — it’s hard to imagine he would have refused to step on the field entirely to tank the Sox. That’s an entirely new level which we’ve never seen from him.
Also — and Bill Simmons has mentioned this many times — the Sox had known for years he was mercurial. Why push his buttons, which they clearly did? They have to take at least some of the responsibility for the mess last summer.
@ BAM
The reason you can’t use the one AB against Manny is because no one can convincingly demonstrate that he tanked it for even that one AB. 3 straight taken strikes don’t happen very often, but they do happen. would the detractors be satisfied if Manny had taken 3 wild hacks? would that have *looked* better? We’ve all seen some pretty sorry ABs against Rivera over the years.
I feel as if there are some ommissions from your Super Bowl XLIV poll.
Elton/Joel is (and should be) the runaway favorite…but:
Bon Jovi – TREMENDOUS crossover appeal to both the country fans, and the idiot Bret Michaels crowd…how are they not a possibility??
Stevie Wonder – Can bring up a Beyonce or a John Legend to fill out the set, and there are numerous classics to choose from.
WILDCARD:
Eric Clapton – Plethora of appeal to numerous generations, plus, just like Stevie, cameo possibilties galore…I’m thinking John Mayer joining Clapp for a rollicing rendition of “After Midnight.”
Wilco/The White Stripes?? Uh, no way…plus TWS haven’t been on tour for two years, and Jack seems more interested in The Raconteurs these days.
Being a Red Sox fan, and a baseball fan first, let me just say that it really bums me out to not watch him hit everyday for the Red Sox. One of the sickest, most balanced swings I have ever been blessed to witness. And when he gets one, oh man.
I know, I know, he’s a head case, quit on his team, money grubbing, manchild, distraction, clubhouse cancer, etc etc. Not defending his character, but does not diminish his mastery of his craft….
Manny is just Manny. Always was, always will be. All the good and all the bad. The problem last season was Scott Boras was influencing Manny. Boras didn’t negotiate Manny’s expiring contract, so if the Sox had picked up their option for his final two years, Boras wouldn’t have seen a penny. Zero. Zip Nada. Manny acts an even larger than normal fool, Sox opt out, Boras can negotiate a deal and cash in for himself. That’s the real beauty of Manny’s current unemployment. Boras looks bad and realizes no $$… He cost Varitek big and now Manny too. Maybe it will cause some players to consider other representation.
StephenVegas — not to mention that this year turned out to be one of Rivera’s most dominant, which is pretty amazing.
Half time show: I want to vote for “other” — just get a marching band. Seriously, it’s a horribly difficult venue for popular acts, as has been proven repeatedly. Scrap it and try something new. I was at a Gophers basketball game last week — during halftime, they had a group of kids from Alexandria, MN perform Globetrotter-esque tricks (they’re a yearly act). I frankly would prefer that to many of the halftime shows I’ve been subjected to at the SB.
@ StephenVegas
You might as well be saying “Who are you going to believe? Me or your lyin’ eyes?”
My lyin eyes saw that at-bat. If you watch every Sox game (as I do), it was obvious Manny had NO intention of taking a swing. There was no movement of any part of his entire body, except when he started walking to the dugout before strike 3 hit the catchers mitt. You can say that I can’t prove it, and I can’t PROVE it. But I do know what my lyin eyes saw. My lyin eyes saw one of the greatest hitters in the history of the game tank a big at-bat becasue he didn’t want to play. Throw all the numbers you want around. How do you quantify when a player is going to lie down on you simply becasue he feels like it?
Fun with numbers. The fact that Ramirez has been fortunate to be on winning teams (check how many losing teams the Red Sox have fielded since 1966…I think the number is four) is of minor significance, unless we want to designate Ernie Banks and Walter Johnson as losers. Manny’s clutch hitting stats (as well as his miserable pinch-hitting stats) simply shows what anyone watching him should realize–he only plays up to his ability when he feels like it, and he likes knocking in runs, and doesn’t like having to play on his “days off.”
And Bam is 100% correct. Joe, if you want to call a “winner” one of the few players (the only one in my 46 years of watching baseball) who actually tried to strike out intentionally at a key moment in a big game, be my guest. I have another name in mind.
More Manny love: If I could put together a switch-hitter, I’d give him Manny’s swing from the right, and Griffey Jr.’s from the left.
Thoughts?
BAM/Jack:
Sorry, but I think your eyes may not be lying, but your memories may be. There are multiple sites which have, at least, the final pitch of this at bat. The quality is not great, but Manny takes his normal “swing the bat” approach, then looks the ball directly into the mitt. There is no visible difference between this and any other at bat. He always looks nonchalant.
I think Manny was wrong to sit out some games lying about an injury but it just really aggravates me that the Red Sox management don’t come under more criticism for their behavior as well. Things like saying Manny tanked an at-bat against Rivera and wanting to fine him; leaking to Bob Lobel that Manny was fined six-figures for shoving the travel secretary, a stupid lie since rules prohibit fines larger than I think five thousand, which have to undergo an appeals process anyway. There was also a ludicrous and disgusting story about how Manny only uses hand towels to wipe his ass and clogs the toilet (yeah, I’m sure stupid Manny doesn’t know better to use toilet paper, okay). They also had hired hand Peter Gammons write an attack column about Manny, which of course, playing both sides as he does, he would counter later by saying oh what a great hitter Manny is, he’s really captured the imagination of Dodgers fan.
Anyway, both sides were wrong. It happens. That doesn’t mean Manny is a cancer and a subtraction by addition.
“The recent Torre book shows him (A-Rod) as a jerk, but it is obvious on the field as well. Remember the incident with Arroyo in the playoffs, for example?”
If Jason Varitek had slapped the ball out of someone’s hand, it would have been hailed as “the true sign of a winner!”
Similarly when A-Rod yelled at Toronto’s third baseman to make him drop that popup. A-Rod was “bush-league” when he did it, but every other player who yells at a guy trying to catch a pop-up near their dugout is just “playing the game right.”
Once people have made up their mind about an individual, they will make every action that individual does into something that conforms to their idea about him.
As for the idea that ESPN’s sources “reported” that Manny had no problems with his knee, yeah, God forbid that ESPN report something bad about Peter Gammons’ love toy Red Sox. And, ofcourse, we all know that ESPN’s sources are NEVER wrong. They’re a bastion of journalistic integrity over there at Bristol…
And as for Manny always asking to be traded, fair enough, but I would like to point out that that whole circus did not start until after the Red Sox put Manny on irrevocable waivers at the end of 2003.
Don’t always believe everything that a team tells you. If it’s up to the teams, they’d have you believe that every baseball player is a greedy bastard who wants to have sex with your underage sister, wants 300 million dollars a game, and doesn’t actually want to play.
To anyone stating that the Sox ran a smear campaign on Manny should consider that Terry & the organization covered for Manny for a long time.
Manny’s antics were all well & good but . . .
Case in point, when Manny threw down the 62 year old Jack McCormack (Red Sox Traveling Secretary) it was because Jack could not get Manny 16 tickets in Houston for the game. Manny asked the day of the game. I am sure he could afford Stub Hub. Anyway my point is that the Sox & Team covered this up and stated nothing about it. The reason it leaked was because people in the Astro’s camp leaked the story. Were they smearing Manny? Later the Sox had to come out and admit it and say it was an internal issue.
There are a lot better Manny stories the Sox would unleash if they wanted to smear him anyway.
Pete Rose and Ty Cobb would hate his stats. They look like a guy who is a better hitter than his stats show and just doesn’t try very hard unless he feels like it. His teams might win a game or two MORE than they do if he focused more in “non-critical” situations. He’s doing WAY more than his share already, though, so I’d be happy to live with him on my team. The problem with a guy like that is guessing when to dump him.
Of course, Cobb only focused when he was actually playing. He made a habit of leaving the team once the pennant was out of reach if he had something else he wanted to do. (or so I’ve read)
If more one-year contracts came back in vogue, we’d see most every player doing his all to improve is bargaining position for the next season. Like back in the pre-Union days: Yes, Marvin Miller and the players needed to unionize and start collective bargaining, but it’s gotten WAY out of hand! Mega multi-year deals are great for the players, much less for the owners. I’m waiting for the term “collusion” to be in the sports headlines throughout Spring Training as so many unsigned free-agents sit idly by. Of course, the worst economy in decades wouldn’t have anything to do with that now, would it?
We can agree to disagree on this issue, but I think that it speaks volumes that no team in baseball really wants him at least not on Manny’s terms). Some call it collusion, others call it common sense. I’m in the common sense camp.
Some of you Sox fans need to put down the Kool-Aid. They were, and had been for a long time, trying to unload his contract by any means. They didn’t want to pay for his option, but they knew if they flat out didn’t take it fans would be pissed. Thus the smear campaign. Basing the mans career on one at bat is beyond silly. How do you know if he was looking to swing or not? Manny’s easy approach at the plate is part of what makes him such a good clutch hitter, the pressure doesn’t phase him.
It’s always unnamed sources that come out against Manny. I want a player to come out on the record and say their peace. Man up.
His contract demands are a seperate issue. There are very few teams who will pay $25 Million a year to ANYONE. The fact he wants more than that is laughable, but a seperate issue to him quitting.
the hold steady? who wants a springsteen tribute band when the real one just played?
and wilco? tweedy’s on-stage “charisma” would put the nation to sleep. hey everyone here’s “walken” and “muzzle of bees” and “spiders” … good, night.
The referendum on Manny’s character has a lot less to do with his trouble getting signed than his desire for four years at $25 million per. That’s insane money for a guy in his mid-to-late 30s. It is NOT a Barry Bonds-type situation — it’s just a guy who wants a big payday a couple of years too late.
Over the last 3 seasons, here is what Manny has done against New York Yankees compared to what the rest of the Red Sox have done as a TEAM (minus Manny’s stats):
39 Games
Manny Ramirez – 14 HR
Rest of the Red Sox – 37 HR
MR – 30 BB
RS – 185 BB
MR – .454 BA
RS – .251 BA
MR – .560 OBP
RS – .320 OBP
MR – .856 SLG
RS – .367 SLG
MR – 1.416 OPS
RS – 0.687 OPS
By the way, I’m thinking JoePo didn’t post the winning percentage of Manny’s teams becasue he thinks Manny made those teams winners by himself. Rather, I think he did it to counter the argument that Manny is some sort of cancer that ruins whatever team he happens to be playing for.
Obviously, there have been good players on bad teams (Bert Blyleven) who don’t get the credit they deserve and bad players on good teams (David Eckstein) who get undeserved credit. I’m guessing Joe is trying to counter the inevitable “intangibles” argument for why a talented player kills a team or an untalented player just “knows how to win.”
Gotta agree with Tampa Mike. If the negativity around Manny had been an isolated incident, it would have been one thing, but it seems like the front office butts heads with plenty of their star players. More than most teams, at least based on what gets out through the media. Did Manny give up on the team down the stretch? Reports show at least some evidence to that effect – the which-knee-hurts confusion, the reported threats of a shutdown – but while I agree that teams don’t want Manny on his terms, I don’t think there’s a team out there (Red Sox excepted) who wouldn’t want him if the salary he was asking for fit into their budget.
As for the Jeter vs. A-Rod jerk debate, I think that’s the biggest example of the power of media in shaping people’s impressions of players. The Cap’n is viewed as a consummate team player even though he repeatedly allows his teammate and former best friend to be dragged through the mud. Jeter stood up for Giambi when it came to steroid use, but wouldn’t say a peep to defend A-Rod from the criticism that’s dogged him throughout his Yankee tenure. And it was all over some perceived slights in an A-Rod magazine feature.
as for the “team player” angle, I’d like to think a true “team player” would have offered to move from shortstop when the team got a better defensive player at the position.
On the whole, can you imagine the scandal if A-Rod were the bachelor who kept wooing starlets instead of Jeter? I mean, A-Rod is shirtless in Central Park and he gets vilified. A-Rod hits a HOME RUN in the friggin’ PLAYOFFS and is criticized for it. Jeter goes 1-for-62 with 44 GIDPs in those same playoffs (okay, maybe that’s an exaggeration) and A-Rod gets torched for daring to homer when it isn’t a one-run game.
Of course, Jeter was there when the Yanks won championships, so he gets carte blanche. A-Rod is (rightly) seen as a money-hungry mercenary and, ever since people started talking about how non-clutch he was (right around the time he slapped the ball out of Arroyo’s glove), he started living down to that lowly billing. People WANT to love Jeter and they WANT to hate A-Rod. I happen to hate most, but at least find that A-Rod – because his flaws are evident – can at least be a bit of a sympathetic character.
Yes, A-Rod’s a deeply flawed, needy, insecure, greedy player and it shows. Jeter, though, has the polished-to-a-sheen image and no one willing to tarnish it. I honestly believe that if Derek Jeter were to murder a child in the Yankee clubhouse, there would be headlines along the lines of “A-Rod fails to save kid’s life!”
Yogi Berra’s teams posted a .600 winning percentage. Berra wasn’t bad with the bat. I assume he gets penalized for being a Yankee, which is fair.
Still. .600 winning percentage and ten World Series rings. That sounds pretty good.
I don’t htink we’re basing his career on one at-bat. We’re putting into perspective the fact that he’s a top 10 all-time hitter, not too far out of his prime, who is sitting at home waiting for the phone to ring.
If there weren’t doubts about his desire and character, he’d be signed to a multi-year contract pretty close to what he was originally asking.
As for the Sox smearing players character, I’d say the players about whom we’re referring provide plenty of ammunition. Who are we talking about? Roger Clemens, NomarramoN, Pedro (who happens to be a close personal friend of) MannyBManny, the HitDawg Mo Vaughn. All of whom took shots at the organization for treating the game as a business instead of your local Boys and Girls Club. I think the business approach has been working pretty well.
i was sure this was about david eckstein
[...] Known around baseball for his harmless antics such as high fiving a fan while making a catch, losing his diamond stud earing while sliding into third and then holding up the game to look for it, cutting off throws from center field and …Next Page [...]
[...] Bill Simmons has hit on this several times but since I am not a huge fan of the guy anymore, here is JoPos take on how good Manny Ramirez is. [...]
BAM, I call BS. Even if Manny possessed pristine character I doubt he would have signed by now. Any team would take him, but its just that no one wants to pay him $20+ million. Nor should they; he’s is his late 30’s and he plays mediocre defense at a corner spot. He’s worth $15 million or so, nothing more. Maybe $20 for a season.
If you want to crucify the guy based on one at-bat, you are a fool. People can argue over whether Manny ‘cares’ all they want, but the guy has provided incredible and consistent value to his teams for a long time. That really dwarfs everything else.
The real reason Manny was run out of town was the concern that he wouldn’t play. The Red Sox have been turning the other cheek with Manny for a long time because they know he is a great player. His pouting and loafing didn’t really hurt the team- it was him sitting out games.
As for the Manny at-bat, I guess it shows the power of media discourse. I don’t think you can tell anything definitive in that at-bat, but if you’ve been speculation to a lot of speculation from the media that Manny tanked that at-bat, maybe it looks a lot worse.
[...] favorite sportswriter, Joe Posnanski of the Kansas City Star, examines the most winning player in baseball history. This player has a better winning percentage than Bobby Cox, Sparky Anderson, Tony LaRussa, and [...]
If Manny is a winner then we all are losers.
Yes he might break Gehrigs record for grand slams but he will never be 1% of the man that Lou Gehrig was.
I would rather my team lose than win with Manny.
I hate the red sox but I have a lot of respect for what they did.He cost them the WS last year.
MannyB’s core numbers with the bases empty: .299/.386/.568
MannyB’s core numbers with runners in scoring position: .329/.454/.607
Hey, Joe. I did a similar breakdown about Manny’s clutch stats at LetsGoTribe, but I came to the opposite conclusion — mostly because I left out those two specific splits above.
Why did I leave them out? Because they’re dramatically skewed by intentional walks — I think it’s something like 170 with RISP, compared with two with the bases empty. I think you basically need to take those plate appearances out in order to run this comparison right.
Now, it’s still a 30-point difference in batting average (with a corresponding slugging difference), and that’s not nothing. It’s just not the same as a 107-point difference in OPS.
[...] Baseball’s Greatest Winner » Joe Posnanski [...]
[...] sit well with me is #2. Clearly, Manny did not prevent the Red Sox from winning two championships. Joe Posnanski thinks he’s a winner. And that’s good enough for me. While his defense in left may be comedic, how much worse is [...]
[...] Is Manny the biggest villain in baseball now for taking months to haggle over a $45 million contract in the midst of a national recession, and after supposedly “quitting” on his Red Sox the middle of last year? Oh probably. But he’s my favorite baseball player of all-time, for better or worse, and what’s more– he’s probably worth the $45 million, given that at 36 last year for the Dodgers, he enjoyed one of the finest half-seasons offensively in baseball’s last 50 years (.396/17 HR/53 RBI in 53 games), and that he’s baseball’s biggest winner. [...]
[...] one thing you can say about Manny is that he’s a winner. At least the teams he plays on wins. Check out Joe Posnanski’s blog here. And while you’re at, you might as well bookmark Joe’s blog. It’s always full of [...]