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	<title>Comments on: Trapped by numbers</title>
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		<title>By: Trapped by numbers Joe Posnanski &#124; Uniform Stores</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/07/trapped-by-numbers/#comment-62281</link>
		<dc:creator>Trapped by numbers Joe Posnanski &#124; Uniform Stores</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 20:11:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/07/trapped-by-numbers/#comment-62281</guid>
		<description>[...] Trapped by numbers Joe Posnanski   Posted by root 6 hours ago (http://joeposnanski.com)        I don t mean we just retire the uniform number 42 in baseball just wanted to see if this would accept my comment seeing as it number well you know said it to the tune of mmmmmm bop which is a disqualifying feature email subject message send cancel powered        Discuss&#160;  &#124;&#160; Bury &#124;&#160;    News &#124; Trapped by numbers Joe Posnanski [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Trapped by numbers Joe Posnanski   Posted by root 6 hours ago (<a href="http://joeposnanski.com" rel="nofollow">http://joeposnanski.com</a>)        I don t mean we just retire the uniform number 42 in baseball just wanted to see if this would accept my comment seeing as it number well you know said it to the tune of mmmmmm bop which is a disqualifying feature email subject message send cancel powered        Discuss&nbsp;  |&nbsp; Bury |&nbsp;    News | Trapped by numbers Joe Posnanski [...]</p>
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		<title>By: coffee</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/07/trapped-by-numbers/#comment-54285</link>
		<dc:creator>coffee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Mar 2009 14:00:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/07/trapped-by-numbers/#comment-54285</guid>
		<description>the only thing better than the ShamWow is the Shamwow song</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the only thing better than the ShamWow is the Shamwow song</p>
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		<title>By: Russ G Palmer</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/07/trapped-by-numbers/#comment-49095</link>
		<dc:creator>Russ G Palmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 03:27:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/07/trapped-by-numbers/#comment-49095</guid>
		<description>Happy belated birthday, Mr. Posnanski! I read your articles in Sports Illustrated, the Kansas City Star, and this blog. Really enjoy your ramblings. I wholly support this idea to honor Mr. Robinson particularly with the celebration of Dr. Kingâ€™s birthday, the impending two hundredth birthday of Abraham Lincoln, and especially todayâ€™s events. I would argue there would never have been a President Obama if not for the cataclysmic, violent courage and fierce dignity of Mr. Robinson. I also strongly suggest the immediate retirement of 37 throughout the NFL to honor the foreshortened career and ultimate selflessness of the Kansas City Chiefâ€™s Joe Delaney. Last summer was the twenty-fifth anniversary of his heroic sacrifice and last fall would have been his fiftieth birthday. Finally, I propose in honor of the Cardinalâ€™s Super Bowl run the retirement through the league of 40 for the late, great Pat Tillman Jr. These two heroes deserve the ultimate respect. I will email you soon about this idea and another. Until then, take care and good luck with your new book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Happy belated birthday, Mr. Posnanski! I read your articles in Sports Illustrated, the Kansas City Star, and this blog. Really enjoy your ramblings. I wholly support this idea to honor Mr. Robinson particularly with the celebration of Dr. Kingâ€™s birthday, the impending two hundredth birthday of Abraham Lincoln, and especially todayâ€™s events. I would argue there would never have been a President Obama if not for the cataclysmic, violent courage and fierce dignity of Mr. Robinson. I also strongly suggest the immediate retirement of 37 throughout the NFL to honor the foreshortened career and ultimate selflessness of the Kansas City Chiefâ€™s Joe Delaney. Last summer was the twenty-fifth anniversary of his heroic sacrifice and last fall would have been his fiftieth birthday. Finally, I propose in honor of the Cardinalâ€™s Super Bowl run the retirement through the league of 40 for the late, great Pat Tillman Jr. These two heroes deserve the ultimate respect. I will email you soon about this idea and another. Until then, take care and good luck with your new book.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Aronson</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/07/trapped-by-numbers/#comment-48272</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Aronson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 06:44:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/07/trapped-by-numbers/#comment-48272</guid>
		<description>I did watch baseball when Rice, Dawson, and Murphy were playing.  I always ranked them Murphy, Dawson, Rice.  I know that Dawson was no Gary Pettis (insert your favorite defensive outfielder here), but he was still a major asset, with good range and one of the best arms of all time.  His range factors and fielding percentage were above league average in both right and center field.  And Dawson was hundreds of homers ahead of the pure glove wizards.  I&#039;m not using Dawson&#039;s defense to make the case that he deserves to be in the HOF.  I&#039;m using all the gold gloves as tie breakers on a marginal candidate.  Similarly, his stolen bases don&#039;t qualify him as a base stealer, but they are tie breakers for his record as a slugger.  But how marginal is Dawson?  Thus, you have this post, and I have an hour less of my time.

Jim Rice is in the HOF now.  He was a defensive liability who played one of the two least important defensive positions instead of being a defensive asset at more important positions.  Rice was a slow base stealer instead of an asset on the base paths.  Was Rice really that much of a better hitter (especially considering his home/away splits) than Dawson, enough to overcome those tie breakers?  Dawson had more hits, doubles, triples, homers, RBI, was a 74% base stealer (good) with hundreds more steals than Rice&#039;s 63% rate (bad).  Dawson also had eight gold gloves and a great arm.  And by all accounts Dawson did more to further the game of baseball.  So the question in my mind is: why is Rice in the HOF when Dawson isn&#039;t?  And most of those arguments also apply to Dale Murphy over Jim Rice; more homers, five gold gloves in center field, more steals at a better rate, a true asset to the game, as well as two MVPs and a stretch of six straight years getting MVP consideration.  Rice never managed more than three years in a row (twice).

And that&#039;s why the Rice vote was a mistake.  There are comparable players to him, contemporaries, maybe who didn&#039;t hit as well as he did (or maybe didn&#039;t have the advantage of playing half his games in Fenway and didn&#039;t have Wade Boggs leading off for him) but who were clearly far better defensively, on the bases, and as ambassadors for the game.  And since we now live in an era where good stats are available, we can also say that Andre Dawson&#039;s OPS was 11 points better at home than on the road; Dale Murphy was helped an enormous 103 points of OPS by playing half his games in the launching pad; Jim Rice was helped a staggering 131 points by the short porch and the Green Monster.  More than that: Rice&#039;s BABIP was .340 in Fenway, helped no doubt by the Monster; on the road it was an ordinary .296.  Does that really seem like a great basher of baseballs, or just a guy tailored for Fenway?

It&#039;s worth looking at even more.  Dawson spent two years in Boston in the decline phase of his career, the only times he played in Fenway.  His OPS those two seasons was .738.  His OPS in Fenway was .813.  So it seems like Dawson benefited from Fenway about as much as Rice did, and had a much better OPS than Rice on the road.  Does anybody have any doubt that if Dawson had been in Fenway for the meat of his career that he&#039;d be in the HOF now?  Then flip that around: if Rice were playing in Montreal during his career, would he have gotten any HOF votes at all?  And that&#039;s not considering the damage the artificial turf in Montreal did to Dawson&#039;s knees that he&#039;d not have suffered on the grass in Fenway.

So I say, vote in Andre Dawson.  On neutral (road) fields he was far and away the best player of those three, he has the most counting stats (except for walks), he has the most defensive value, he has the most steals, he has the most unique skill set, and he was helped hardly at all by him home parks.  Dawson should be the guy going to Cooperstown, not Rice, and Joe, I hope you vote for him next year.

Finally, and this would be an interesting project for one of you guys who has superior access to automated statistics (I&#039;m just a poorly paid college professor these days, and can&#039;t afford to pay for better stat access) it would be interesting to see if opposing left fielders outhit Jim Rice in Fenway during Rice&#039;s career.  Based on Rice&#039;s home/away splits, I suspect that he truly is just a phenomenon of Fenway Park.  It&#039;s too late to consider for voting Rice in (or out) but before we get guys like Larry Walker and Todd Helton coming up for HOF consideration, it would be *really* nice to establish that yes, some ballparks *are* just that much better for hitters (and pitchers) than others.  I know it cost Mike Piazza at least one MVP.  I mean, over his career Piazza&#039;s OPS was EIGHTY frigging points higher on the road.  If only he&#039;d gotten to play in Coors or Fenway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did watch baseball when Rice, Dawson, and Murphy were playing.  I always ranked them Murphy, Dawson, Rice.  I know that Dawson was no Gary Pettis (insert your favorite defensive outfielder here), but he was still a major asset, with good range and one of the best arms of all time.  His range factors and fielding percentage were above league average in both right and center field.  And Dawson was hundreds of homers ahead of the pure glove wizards.  I&#8217;m not using Dawson&#8217;s defense to make the case that he deserves to be in the HOF.  I&#8217;m using all the gold gloves as tie breakers on a marginal candidate.  Similarly, his stolen bases don&#8217;t qualify him as a base stealer, but they are tie breakers for his record as a slugger.  But how marginal is Dawson?  Thus, you have this post, and I have an hour less of my time.</p>
<p>Jim Rice is in the HOF now.  He was a defensive liability who played one of the two least important defensive positions instead of being a defensive asset at more important positions.  Rice was a slow base stealer instead of an asset on the base paths.  Was Rice really that much of a better hitter (especially considering his home/away splits) than Dawson, enough to overcome those tie breakers?  Dawson had more hits, doubles, triples, homers, RBI, was a 74% base stealer (good) with hundreds more steals than Rice&#8217;s 63% rate (bad).  Dawson also had eight gold gloves and a great arm.  And by all accounts Dawson did more to further the game of baseball.  So the question in my mind is: why is Rice in the HOF when Dawson isn&#8217;t?  And most of those arguments also apply to Dale Murphy over Jim Rice; more homers, five gold gloves in center field, more steals at a better rate, a true asset to the game, as well as two MVPs and a stretch of six straight years getting MVP consideration.  Rice never managed more than three years in a row (twice).</p>
<p>And that&#8217;s why the Rice vote was a mistake.  There are comparable players to him, contemporaries, maybe who didn&#8217;t hit as well as he did (or maybe didn&#8217;t have the advantage of playing half his games in Fenway and didn&#8217;t have Wade Boggs leading off for him) but who were clearly far better defensively, on the bases, and as ambassadors for the game.  And since we now live in an era where good stats are available, we can also say that Andre Dawson&#8217;s OPS was 11 points better at home than on the road; Dale Murphy was helped an enormous 103 points of OPS by playing half his games in the launching pad; Jim Rice was helped a staggering 131 points by the short porch and the Green Monster.  More than that: Rice&#8217;s BABIP was .340 in Fenway, helped no doubt by the Monster; on the road it was an ordinary .296.  Does that really seem like a great basher of baseballs, or just a guy tailored for Fenway?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s worth looking at even more.  Dawson spent two years in Boston in the decline phase of his career, the only times he played in Fenway.  His OPS those two seasons was .738.  His OPS in Fenway was .813.  So it seems like Dawson benefited from Fenway about as much as Rice did, and had a much better OPS than Rice on the road.  Does anybody have any doubt that if Dawson had been in Fenway for the meat of his career that he&#8217;d be in the HOF now?  Then flip that around: if Rice were playing in Montreal during his career, would he have gotten any HOF votes at all?  And that&#8217;s not considering the damage the artificial turf in Montreal did to Dawson&#8217;s knees that he&#8217;d not have suffered on the grass in Fenway.</p>
<p>So I say, vote in Andre Dawson.  On neutral (road) fields he was far and away the best player of those three, he has the most counting stats (except for walks), he has the most defensive value, he has the most steals, he has the most unique skill set, and he was helped hardly at all by him home parks.  Dawson should be the guy going to Cooperstown, not Rice, and Joe, I hope you vote for him next year.</p>
<p>Finally, and this would be an interesting project for one of you guys who has superior access to automated statistics (I&#8217;m just a poorly paid college professor these days, and can&#8217;t afford to pay for better stat access) it would be interesting to see if opposing left fielders outhit Jim Rice in Fenway during Rice&#8217;s career.  Based on Rice&#8217;s home/away splits, I suspect that he truly is just a phenomenon of Fenway Park.  It&#8217;s too late to consider for voting Rice in (or out) but before we get guys like Larry Walker and Todd Helton coming up for HOF consideration, it would be *really* nice to establish that yes, some ballparks *are* just that much better for hitters (and pitchers) than others.  I know it cost Mike Piazza at least one MVP.  I mean, over his career Piazza&#8217;s OPS was EIGHTY frigging points higher on the road.  If only he&#8217;d gotten to play in Coors or Fenway.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Aronson</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/07/trapped-by-numbers/#comment-48271</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Aronson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 06:26:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/07/trapped-by-numbers/#comment-48271</guid>
		<description>I dunno, if I recall &quot;Moneyball&quot; correctly, the A&#039;s emphasized walks in the minor league system.  If you didn&#039;t walk enough as a batter, you didn&#039;t advance (barring exceptional other stats) and if you walked too many as a pitcher, you didn&#039;t advance.  A couple of years later, players had all gotten the message; batters walked more, pitchers walked less.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I dunno, if I recall &#8220;Moneyball&#8221; correctly, the A&#8217;s emphasized walks in the minor league system.  If you didn&#8217;t walk enough as a batter, you didn&#8217;t advance (barring exceptional other stats) and if you walked too many as a pitcher, you didn&#8217;t advance.  A couple of years later, players had all gotten the message; batters walked more, pitchers walked less.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Gunn</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/07/trapped-by-numbers/#comment-48075</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Gunn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:54:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/07/trapped-by-numbers/#comment-48075</guid>
		<description>Rosenthal&#039;s argument is fairly ridiculous.  He claims people didn&#039;t value OBP in the &#039;80s -- and yet they did.  They just tended not to use the term OBP.  For example, the following two sentences mean the exact same thing:

&quot;He led the league in OBP.&quot;

&quot;He led the league in not making outs.&quot;

Not making outs has always been considered worthwhile.  Avoiding outs leads to wins.  Wins have also been considered worthwhile for quite some time.  Rosenthal is just flat-out wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rosenthal&#8217;s argument is fairly ridiculous.  He claims people didn&#8217;t value OBP in the &#8217;80s &#8212; and yet they did.  They just tended not to use the term OBP.  For example, the following two sentences mean the exact same thing:</p>
<p>&#8220;He led the league in OBP.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;He led the league in not making outs.&#8221;</p>
<p>Not making outs has always been considered worthwhile.  Avoiding outs leads to wins.  Wins have also been considered worthwhile for quite some time.  Rosenthal is just flat-out wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Mrs. O'H</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/07/trapped-by-numbers/#comment-48070</link>
		<dc:creator>Mrs. O'H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:16:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/07/trapped-by-numbers/#comment-48070</guid>
		<description>Joe, Joe.  Retiring 42 would take you directly to 43.  Is that what you want?  And it actually sounds kinda young to me!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe, Joe.  Retiring 42 would take you directly to 43.  Is that what you want?  And it actually sounds kinda young to me!</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/07/trapped-by-numbers/#comment-48024</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 07:15:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/07/trapped-by-numbers/#comment-48024</guid>
		<description>If there&#039;s any truth to the rumor that Clark Hunt offered the GM job to Pioli, but stipulated that Herm be given one more year, then Clark Hunt is an idiot.  If you&#039;re hiring a new GM to take over a franchise in complete disarray coming off a 2-14 season, you let the GM hire a new coach.  End of story.  

If Hunt loses Pioli because of some b.s. reason, he&#039;s going to lose a good chunk of season ticket subscribers and a majority of Chiefs fans that still give a damn.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If there&#8217;s any truth to the rumor that Clark Hunt offered the GM job to Pioli, but stipulated that Herm be given one more year, then Clark Hunt is an idiot.  If you&#8217;re hiring a new GM to take over a franchise in complete disarray coming off a 2-14 season, you let the GM hire a new coach.  End of story.  </p>
<p>If Hunt loses Pioli because of some b.s. reason, he&#8217;s going to lose a good chunk of season ticket subscribers and a majority of Chiefs fans that still give a damn.</p>
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		<title>By: Elephant</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/07/trapped-by-numbers/#comment-48011</link>
		<dc:creator>Elephant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 02:08:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/07/trapped-by-numbers/#comment-48011</guid>
		<description>So long as we are skipping #42, can&#039;t we just say that Bill Clinton was the 41st president, Barack Obama was the 43rd president, and pretend that nothing bad happened in the middle?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So long as we are skipping #42, can&#8217;t we just say that Bill Clinton was the 41st president, Barack Obama was the 43rd president, and pretend that nothing bad happened in the middle?</p>
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		<title>By: newday30</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/07/trapped-by-numbers/#comment-47966</link>
		<dc:creator>newday30</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 03:57:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/07/trapped-by-numbers/#comment-47966</guid>
		<description>Willie who? Hey Joe, hilarious last couple of posts, (and Andre shouldn&#039;t be in, he was a very good player, but not HOF material) but lets get some new stuff on the Royals latest moves. Rob Nen&#039;s blog nailed it first, what is going on with Dayton?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Willie who? Hey Joe, hilarious last couple of posts, (and Andre shouldn&#8217;t be in, he was a very good player, but not HOF material) but lets get some new stuff on the Royals latest moves. Rob Nen&#8217;s blog nailed it first, what is going on with Dayton?</p>
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