Hall of Fame Ballot 2009
Posted: January 4th, 2009 | Filed under: Baseball | 124 Comments »
Bill James has told me — more than once — that if he had a Hall of Fame vote, he would probably vote for the maximum of ten players every year, or as close to ten as he could justifiably go. As he wrote: “I would always prefer to vote for ten, because if everyone votes for ten, only two or three will be elected. If people leave spaces empty the expectation goes down dramatically.â€
I should say that I have never been entirely certain that he was serious … you never know with Bill. You know the story about Bob Dylan going up to Barry Manilow* sometime in the 1980s and saying, “Hey man, you just keep doing what you do.†And Manilow never knew what the heck Dylan meant by that, which I’m sure was the whole point.
*So, I was walking around Best Buy the other day, and I ran across the new Barry Manilow CD. I was going to look at the back of it right then but there was a young woman standing there, and while I am very happily married and only have eyes for my Margo, I’m also not about to go look at the back of a Barry Manilow CD with a young woman standing there. Force of habit, I guess.
Eventually, though, she left, and I was able to see that it was Barry Manilow singing the “Greatest Songs of the Eighties.†And I have to admit, my interest was piqued – I was thrilled to think about Barry Manilow singing Sunday Bloody Sunday, Beds are Burning, Melt With You, Atlantic City, Birds Fly (Whisper to a Scream), Human Nature, Fight the Power, (Don’t Go Back To) Rockville, Hot for Teacher, Cherish, Little Red Corvette, Walk Like a Man, AEIOU and Sometimes Y, Bizarre Love Triangle, Please Please Please Let Me Get What I Want, I Still Haven’t Found What I’m Looking For, Radio Free Europe, Cum on Feel the Noize, Time After Time, Tom Sawyer, Out In The Street, Thriller, Bullet the Blue Sky, Rock Lobster, Under the Milky Way, Just Like Heaven, Should I Stay or Should I Go, Almost Blue, Rock Me Amadeus, Johnny 99, Paradise City, Cult of Personality, Video Killed the Radio Star, Our House, Who Can It Be Now, 88 Lines about 44 Women, Basketball, When Doves Cry, It’s the End of the World as We Know It (And I Feel Fine), Pretty in Pink, Where The Streets Have No Name, The River, Driver 8, Private Idaho, Mexican Radio, The Promise, and about a thousand other songs. I loved the eighties, loved the music, loved the shlocky stuff, loved the hair, loved the new wave, loved-loved-loved it all.
And I should have known: Barry managed to find pretty much all the songs from the 1980s that I absolutely hated:
1. Islands in the Stream. Let’s hope that is now what we are, really.
2. Open Arms. Nothing to hide. Believe what I say. I swear if I get this song in my head I will NEVER fall asleep.
3. Never Gonna Give You Up. If I am reading this right: Since 2001, Rick Astley has released: (1) Together Forever — Greatest Hits and More; (2) Greatest Hits; (3) Greatest Hits … I’m guessing this was a re-release; (4) The Best of Rick Astley — Never Gonna Give You Up; (5) Love Songs (A Greatest Hits Album); and (6) Platinum and Gold Collection — Rick Astley. I simply have nothing more to say about this.
4. Have I Told You Lately. This is the one of two good songs on the album … Van Morrison. I cannot IMAGINE what Barry does to it.
5. I Just Called to Say I Love You. Man, I would love to let Jack Black loose on Barry for doing this song.
6. Against All Odds. My high school senior class song. And no, I’m not going back for my 25th reunion this year. This song is why.
7. Careless Whisper. One of my all-time guilty pleasures, sadly enough, is George Michael’s “Praying For Time†album. I do not make excuses for this; my taste is my own, and I like that album. I still HATE this song.
8. Right Here Waiting. Whatever it takes. Or how my heart breaks. Richard Marx. I have not thought one time about this son in 20 years, and I STILL know every word … these take up the valuable brain cells that I should be using to write my book.
9. Arthur’s Theme. I distinctly remember that Christopher Cross won the 1981 Grammy Award. And I have long thought that this HAS to be the all-time musical travesty. I was entirely wrong. Other Grammy winners in the 1980s include:
1983: Toto IV by Toto.
1985: Can’t Slow Down by Lionel Richie
1986: No Jacket Required by Phil Collins
I would say that if forced by terrorists to listen to one of those albums again and again, the Chris Cross album would not finish fourth.
10. Hard to Say I’m Sorry. It just gets worse and worse. I was convinced that Right Here Waiting was my least favorite song of the 1980s. Or Just Called To Say I Love You. But no, there is absolutely no doubt that THIS is my least favorite song of the 1980s.
11. Time After Time. OK, I love this song. Well, I love it when Cyndi Lauper sings it.
12. (I’ve Had) The Time of My Life. Wait a minute. Did I say Hard to Say I’m Sorry is my least favorite song of the 1980s? Yeah, we might need to go to a tiebreaker system.
At least he didn’t do, “We Built The City.†Or “Broken Wings.†I guess there’s that.
ANYWAY, I have tried to take Bill seriously on his “Vote for as many people as you can†advice … and now when I vote for the Hall of Fame, I try to vote more openly than I might otherwise. I do this because (A) I always listen to Bill; (B) I probably lean toward the idea of a reasonably big Hall of Fame and (C) I don’t like seeing good candidates fall off the ballot before people really give them their fair consideration. I mean, Jim Rice only got 29.8% of the vote in 1995 and now he probably will get elected. It’s a travesty that Dan Quisenberry, Lou Whitaker, Frank White, Dwight Evans, Bobby Grich, Keith Hernandez and numerous others fell off the ballot without getting their due consideration. I mean, seriously, Bobby Grich got ELEVEN votes his one year on the ballot.
Here are the Top 5 second basemen in career OPS+ (2,000 or more games):
1. Rogers Hornsby (175)
2. Eddie Collins (141)
3. Joe Morgan (132)
4. Bobby Grich (125)
5. Charlie Gehringer (124)
The other four are in the Hall of Fame. He’s seventh on the list in second baseman list in homers and the Top 6 will all be in the Hall of Fame, this (depending on Jeff Kent). He won four Gold Gloves. He led the American League in homers and slugging in 1981. He started All Star Games at shortstop and second base. He was a great player … I don’t know if he belongs in the Hall of Fame (his career was not terribly long), but I know there should have been a longer discussion about it. I think you could argue convincingly that Grich was every bit as good a player as Ryne Sandberg.
So, that’s my prelude. If I was the judge and jury for the Hall of Fame and my vote was the only one that counted, I would have put four players on this year’s ballot in the Hall: Rickey Henderson, Tim Raines, Bert Blyleven and Alan Trammell. But as one of more than 500 voters, I voted for some others as well.
Harold Baines: No. But he should have the “Professional Hitters†wing in the Hall named for him.
Jay Bell: No. I once wrote a column before a Royals season telling fans that they would love Jay Bell. I still get kidded about that by friends here — fans really didn’t fall in love with the guy. The guy didn’t exactly, you know, bust it. I remember in a two week period, I saw Bell not run out a ground ball — I mean he didn’t even leave the box — and not even try on a looping fly ball that was hit about 10 feet behind him at shortstop. He was like Roger Dorn come to life. But he also hit. He only played one season in KC, but he is still the Royals season record holder for shortstops in:
Homers with 21 (second is Angel Berroa with 17)
On-base percentage with .368 (second is Berroa with .338)
Slugging percentage with .461 (Berroa second again with .451)
Hits with 167 (Berroa second with 164)
RBIs with 92 (Berroa second with 73)
OPS+ with 115 (Berroa and Kurt Stillwell second with 101).
Bert Blyleven: Yes. Of course.
David Cone: No. Didn’t play his first full year until he was 25, and he was pretty much done at 36. But between 1988-99 he was 175-96 with a 3.15 ERA, he won a Cy Young, led the league in wins one year, went 20-3 with a 2.22 ERA another year. I guess he didn’t quite last long enough, though in retrospect I kind of wish I had voted for him just as a tip of the cap and an effort to keep him on the ballot.
Andre Dawson: No. I have the utmost respect for the guy, but I just can’t do it. That .323 on-base percentage … it would be lower than all but five Hall of Famers — Bill Mazeroski, Joe Tinker, Luis Aparicio, Rabbit Maranville and Brooks Robinson. And none of them went in for their bats. I guess the way I look at it, this is a bit like voting in a .255 hitter. I will say I wish I could get past it.
Ron Gant: No. But it’s worth noting that he hit 321 homers and stole 243 bases in his career. Good player.
Mark Grace: No. I love Bill James’ line on how Mark Grace was the ultimate No. 2 hitter and Ryne Sandberg was a solid No. 3 hitter, but they almost never hit in those spots because of their fielding positions. Grace hit for a high average, handled the bat, walked and didn’t hit with power, but he was a first baseman and so he spent 75% of his career hitting third or fourth. Sandberg did hit with power and for average, but he was a speedy second baseman and as such batted second 57% of the time. It just shows you the power of perception.
Rickey Henderson: Yes. Of course.
Tommy John: Yes. He didn’t have a great peak, but 288 wins, a surgery named for him, an excellent postseason record, forty six shutouts and an enviable record as a great control pitcher is a Hall of Fame case. I know people keep comparing Jack Morris to Bert Blyleven on the ballot, but I don’t see that at all: Blyleven was a much better pitcher than Morris. I think people should instead compare Morris to Tommy John:
Wins: John 288, Morris 254.
ERA: John 3.34, Morris 3.90
ERA+: John 110, Morris 105
Shutouts: John 46, Morris 28.
20-win seasons: John 3, Morris 3.
Postseason record: John 6-3, 2.65 ERA, Morris 7-4, 3.80
World Series record: John 2-1, 2.67 ERA, Morris 4-2, 2.96 ERA.
Top Cy Young finishes: John twice finished second; Morris twice finished third.
Sure, I’m cherry picking — Morris has his advantages too. He had more complete games, started three All-Star Games (John never started one) and had quite a few more 15-plus win seasons. But I think when you take everything into account … John’s case compared to Morris’ is pretty compelling.*
*A reader to the brilliant TangoTiger blog points out the remarkable similarities between Jaime Moyer and Jack Morris.
Moyer: 246-185, 106 ERA+, 3,746 IP, 2,248 Ks, 1,074 walks.
Morris: 254-186, 105 ERA+, 3,824 IP, 2,478 Ks, 1,390 walks.
I don’t really need to comment beyond that, except to say that I find it STUNNING that Moyer has just 200 fewer strikeout than Jack Morris.
Don Mattingly: No. The comparison to Puckett is fine except Puckett played centerfield and while it’s a matter of circumstance, Kirby WAS brilliant in the postseason. Mattingly was one of my all-time favorite players. And on the plus side, I do not think he will fall off the ballot.
Mark McGwire: Yes. I had not voted for him before, and I don’t know if it’s right to vote for him now. But as time goes on, I become more and more convinced that a huge percentage of baseball players used performance enhancing drugs in the 1990s (and may still now). There was no testing, no real deterrence, and an immense pressure to keep up. I would bet that some of those who used would shock the heck out of everyone. It sadly became an accepted part of the game, and I have lost any and all hope of figuring out who used, who didn’t. Beyond that, Mark McGwire was an amazing player. He brought baseball back to center stage in 1998. It was one of the most amazing shows I’ve ever seen. He hit 478 homers in his 10 best seasons. You know: Babe Ruth may have used a corked bat. Gaylord Perry definitely used the spitball. Sparky Anderson collected Don Sutton baseballs with scuff marks all in the same place. Lots of players used greenies. I have always believed the Hall of Fame is an honor, not a right, but after much consideration I voted for McGwire this time. I would vote for Pete Rose too. I am willing to admit that I’m wrong and should have stronger moral fiber.
Jack Morris: No.
Dale Murphy: Yes. I want him to stay on the ballot. I do believe he was a better all-around player than Rice, Dawson or Parker — the other outfielders on the ballot. He had six truly excellent seasons …
Seasons with 28 or more Win Shares
Dale Murphy, 6
Dave Parker, 4
Jim Rice, 3
Andre Dawson, 2
Seasons with 135 or better OPS+
Dale Murphy, 6
Jim Rice, 5
Andre Dawson, 5
Dave Parker, 5
Number of seasons with 10.0 or better WARP1
Dale Murphy, 4 (and one at 9.6)
Dave Parker, 2
Andre Dawson, 2
Jim Rice, 0 (and one at 9.6)
Seasons with more than 100 runs created
Dale Murphy, 7
Andre Dawson, 6
Dave Parker, 5
Jim Rice, 5
Of course, I’m cherry-picking. I undoubtedly could come up with stats that would make Rice, Dawson or Parker look good too. Murphy’s career was too short, and he was helped tremendously by his home park, and he was not much of a player after he turned 32. But I think Murphy had a higher peak than the others, and he was an iconic figure (especially in the South), and he did everything well …
Jesse Orosco: No. Do you remember seeing Orosco in a Twins uniform?
Dave Parker: No. But did you know he finished in the Top 5 in MVP voting five times?
Dan Plesac: No … and honestly I remembered his career as a closer lasting longer than it did. He only had four seasons with 20 or more saves.
Tim Raines: Yes. Of course. …Raines was probably the best player in the National League in 1985, ‘86 and ‘87 (and he was awfully good in ‘83 and ‘84 too) and he NEVER CAME CLOSE to winning an MVP award. This is the thing about the awards, they do color people’s views about players forever. Very bad decisions (such as George Bell over Alan Trammell for MVP in ‘87 or Dan Quisenberry not winning the Cy Young) never quite go away. In the end, I think this is why it’s so important to really review a player’s career in addition to worrying about how the player was viewed during his time. Maybe people cared more about batting average and RBIs than on-base percentage and slugging percentage, but they were wrong, and we know better now. And, we’ll know even better in five years, ten years, twenty years.
Retroactive MVP winners of the 1980s (just my opinion — bold are actual winners)
1980: George Brett and Mike Schmidt.
1981: Rickey Henderson and Mike Schmidt
1982: Robin Yount and Mike Schmidt
1983: Cal Ripken and Dale Murphy
1984: Alan Trammell and Ryne Sandberg
1985: George Brett and Willie McGee
1986: Wade Boggs and Tim Raines
1987: Alan Trammell and Tim Raines
1988: Jose Canseco and Darryl Strawberry
1989: Robin Yount and Will Clark
Jim Rice: No. I wrote before that I will be happy when he goes into the Hall of Fame even though I didn’t vote for him, and a few people wondered what I meant by that. Here’s what I mean: After studying the issue VERY closely (VERRRRY closely) I do not believe Rice makes my Hall of Fame cut for all the reasons that have been repeated again and again and again on this blog.
But I still respect the man for what he did, for being the first black baseball star in Boston, for putting up that incredible 1978 season, for playing every day and posting good numbers over his 12 good years. As a voter, I made my decision. But as a baseball fan, I admire one of the stars of my youth.
Lee Smith: No. I’m totally baffled by what to do with relief pitchers, and you know what? So are the voters in general. Lookit: The only starting pitchers to get into the Hall of Fame since 1991 — since Ferguson Jenkins — are Gaylord Perry, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Phil Niekro, Don Sutton and Nolan Ryan. All have 300 victories and all have 3,000 strikeouts. The standard for a starter has been pretty clear cut for almost two decades now. If Bert Blyleven had 13 more cheapo victories, he’d be in the Hall.
But over that same time, four relief pitchers — Rollie Fingers, Dennis Eckersley, Bruce Sutter and Goose Gossage — and I have NO idea what the standards are. Sutter, as mentioned here countless times, had an eerily similar career to Dan Quisenberry, who got no Hall of Fame support. Fingers was sort of a bullpen pioneer, but his numbers do not seem to be significantly better than Jeff Reardon, Tom Henke or John Franco — in fact, their numbers look better. Eckersley had that strange four-pronged career where he started off as a good starter, then he became a mediocre starter, then he became a dominant closer, then he finished off as a fairly mediocre 60-inning a year guy. Gossage was a thoroughly dominant closer — the best of the four in my view — but he was more or less a fiasco the one year he was asked to be a starter, which tells us something.
Now you have Lee Smith, who had the save record for a long time and put up a better than 100 ERA+ for seventeen consecutive years. Is that Hall of Fame worthy? Was he better pitcher than Ron Guidry, Dave Stieb, Bret Saberhagen, Jimmy Key and many other excellent pitcher who pitched twice as many innings as Smith but had careers that were considered too short for Hall of Fame consideration. I have no idea.
Alan Trammell: Yes. Of course. Alan Trammell played about two fewer seasons than Ozzie Smith, and still created 100 more runs than the Wizard. Did Ozzie make up more than 100 runs with his defense? Maybe, he was awesome, but remember: Trammell was very good defensively too. Anyway, Ozzie breezed into the Hall of Fame first ballot.
Greg Vaughn: No.
Mo Vaughn: No. But closer than Greg Vaughn.
Matt Williams: No.
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Rock Me Amadeus?
I tried voting for ten from your on-line ballot, and discovered that I had no choice but to vote for Jim Rice to get to ten.
“I would say that if forced by terrorists to listen to one of those albums again and again, the Chris Cross album would not finish fourth.”
Thank you for this line. Still chuckling over it.
I also appreciate your logic in regard to McGwire and share your opinion on the matter in considering Hall of Famers in the steroid era. I just have one problem case, and I know it’s hypocritical, but it would be REAL tough to vote for Rafael Palmiero.
I would prefer to rename the “Baines Professional Hitters Wing” after him though. (maybe)
I don’t care what anyone says. I love “Never Gonna Give You Up.”
[...] Joe Posnanski of the Kansas City Star: Bert Blyleven, Rickey Henderson, Dale Murphy Tommy John, Tim Raines, Alan Trammell. [...]
I voted for Trammell, Raines, Henderson and Blyleven. (On this poll, that is. I’m not a voting member of the BBWAA).
And We Built This City is a great song. Well, not really, but it’s my favorite bad song of all time. It’s so bad that it’s hysterical. It’s off the charts on the Bill Simmons Unintentional Comedy Scale. I never turn the dial when I’m flicking around the radio and stumble upon it. And I can’t come up with a term for it, but I don’t even think it’s in the “so bad it’s funny” category. It’s badness is beyond that. It’s transcendent in its way.
I honestly don’t believe Toto IV was THAT bad, although I probably wouldn’t have given it the Grammy.
I’m trying to think of songs in the 80’s I felt were worse than what Manilow chose to cover. Other than the aforementioned “We Built This City”, the only ones that come to mind are Simply Red’s version of “If You Don’t Know Me By Now” and New Kids On The Block’s “I’ll Be Loving You Forever” and “Please Don’t Go (Girl)”.
It’s not quite as bad, but I’m surprised he’s not covering Glenn Mederos’ “Nothin’s Gonna Change My Love For You”.
[...] Hall of Fame Ballot 2009 [...]
Wow…you certainly don’t agree with the AMCAS. Three of the 1980s songs you hated won the Best Original Song Oscar.
1980: Fame (Fame)
1981: Arthur’s Theme (Arthur)
1982: Up Where We Belong (An Officer and a Gentleman)
1983: Flashdance…What a Feeling (Flashdance)
1984: I Just Called to Say I Love You (The Woman in Red)
1985: Say You, Say Me (White Nights)
1986: Take My Breath Away (Top Gun)
1987: I’ve Had the Time of My Life (Dirty Dancing)
1988: Let the River Run (Working Girl)
1989: Under the Sea (The Little Mermaid)
I always try to vote for the maximum of ten every year the Hall of Fame ballot is released, and I did the same in the poll this year. Of course, this does meant that I had Jack Morris, Jim Rice, and David Cone on the list. I sure hope Cone can get 5% this year, and then you can give him the tip-of-the-cat vote next year.
I swear to god, can we please move on from giving value to MVP voting finishes and MVP wins when it’s quite clear how much of a fiasco the voting can be at times. Chase Utley finished 15th in this year’s MVP voting! Ted Williams hit .406 in a season and did not win the MVP… how does a man with a .550+ OBP not win the MVP?! Oh wait, Teddy Ballgame also won the Triple Crown twice and in neither case won the MVP. Did I mention he led the league in OBP pretty much every year of his career?
In short, MVP voting finishes are (almost) completely bunk.
My ‘favorite’ Jay Bell moment occurred when he was with the D-Backs in the World Series. He came to the plate late in the game in a very close game — one where one run would matter a lot.
The leadoff guy got a double. Jay Bell comes to the plate with the opportunity to move the runner from 2nd to 3rd and set up the sac fly to get the all-important run. As any HS hitter knows, you should try to hit the ball to the right side of the field so you can move the runner over.
Jay Bell pulled two consecutive balls foul down the third base line and then eventually grounded out to the 3rd baseman, the runner never scored.
That sums up how I feel about Jay Bell. At some point the veteran player quit doing the ‘little things’ that win ballgames.
I wanted to like him, I really did. May have been the worst investment in a player the Royals made on a guy without the last name of Davis.
I have to admit that I voted for Orosco. I knew I’d be one of his only supporters. I did it because I thought his peak, in 1983, was as good as it gets for a lefty reliever. I saw almost every game he pitched that year, and I don’t recall very many lefty batters hitting him. In fact, most of them looked downright lost. And rightys didn’t look so hot either. He was amazing.
Nate
Bert Blyleven is the most deserving on the list from those who have been passed on before. What an oversight by past voters. A real warrior on the mound for an average team. A consistent curveball that matches any pitcher before or since. Bert compiled the wins to support his dominance. Wake up hall of fame voters. He is more tha just numbers… he is a classic. The ultimate test is how many batters of his time truly wanted to face him?
No bad ’80s song list is complete without Kokomo.
I voted for the current top nine plus Professional Hitter Baines, just because. I also would vote for the maximum 10 if I had a real vote.
I don’t recall Jay Bell dogging it or not doing the “little things” when he played for Pittsburgh. In fact, for his first few years he specialized in little things like bunting and hitting to the right side. Maybe he got depressed when he arrived in Kansas City and discovered the Royals were just as bad as the Pirates.
This is not a subject I’m an expert on, but I have a question:
“for being the first black baseball star in Boston,”
What about Reggie Smith? Or Luis Tiant? I realize neither one was as big of a star as Rice in Boston, and that trying to decide whether Tiant “counts” as black is a stupid, ultimately pointless argument. And that Rice certainly had to deal with racial B.S.
But I’m just not sure if that description is accurate. Not that it affects his not making my ballot either way (and I got to 10.)
I’m a little troubled that 4% of your readers don’t think Rickey is a hall of famer…hopefully that’s explainable by some kind of technical glitch
Joe,
You are voting to send a message, rather than voting to send people to the Hall.
That is really not much (no?) better than NOT voting for someone one the first ballot just because some people shouldn’t get in on the first ballot.
I understand that there were players in the past who fell off the ballot early and should have gotten in. But these are people you should vote for to get in, not just to send a message.
I understand giving yourself wiggle room, by which I mean voting for those you are sure deserve it and also voting for those who are close but not quite there. This would acknowledge that you’ve got a margin of error, and you don’t want your margin of error to contribute to someone falling off the ballot too early. This especially makes sense if you’ve got a pretty high standard for the hall.
But if you’ve got a relatively loose standard anyway, you’re already voting for people to stay on the ballot. If you know that you’ve got a relatively loose standard — and there is nothing wrong with that, which is why I am not calling it a “low” standard — then you digging too deep in the barrel if you vote for extra people.
Otherwise, another brilliant column. And, again, thank you.
I agree with you with the Murph. He just didn’t seem to have enough good years. Keep in mind, though, that he turned down being traded or signing somewhere else to stay with the Braves. Many years in the mid and late 80s, he was the only All-Star selection for the Braves (and this was before that silly rule of one team one player). I think that if Murphy had had one really good season in the early 90s or gotten to 400, he’d be a shoo-in for the Hall.
Of course, he IS part of one Hall of Fame, the Braves one!
Baseball is a game of rules and statistical comparison. No amount of “everybody in the 90’s or 00’s was doing it” moral relativism can add up to McGwire, Rose or even Barry Bonds making the Hall on the basis of puttings fans butts into seats at the ballpark, unless they are completely cleared of the allegations surrounding them. If society or the rules of baseball outlawed the casual use of steroids or gambling on baseball during a player’s time, that’s enough reason alone to exclude people who violated the standard. Doesn’t matter if we need to exclude EVERYONE from the timeframe who is under scrutiny for cheating – the Hall is exclusionary by design – only the absolute best need be considered. It’s not a feel good popularity contest.
I am pretty sure Orosco has the career appearance record for pitchers. I think that deserves at least some support. Plus he was dominant for a famous New York team. Not really saying he should be in the Hall, but he is someone who I think deserves to linger on the ballot.
It would be great if we could Rickroll the ballot box and elect Dan Plesac to the HOF as a joke. Or maybe we could just vote in Rick Astley’s song “Never Gonna Give You Up” and make it a true Rickroll. What’s a Rickroll you ask? Look it up on Wikipedia, or here’s a link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
Ok, here’s the real link, specifically look for the NY Mets Rickrolling entry in the “examples” section:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickroll
Joe,
The fact that you LIKE Barry Manilow should be a secret you keep from EVERYBODY, not just pretty young girls.
Does anyone know how many games Blyleven lost in which he allowed 2 or less runs? That would be very important to me… ’cause if he lost more than 13 of those, then the only reason he didn’t reach 300 was because of his offense and NOT because his pitching skills were lacking.
Terry,
Baseball has also always been a game of cheating. Stealing signs, illegal pitches, etc. Players using “greenies” were taking amphetamines to be able to play after being tired, hung over, etc. Most players did it back in the day, some still do today. If you took all the guys out of the HOF for using greenies which most undoubtedly did, you wouldn’t be left with many guys in there. How is it fair to ban one group of players for doing something illegal, and let the other one in the HOF even though they also did something equally illegal? Seems silly to me. It’s not moral relativism, it’s ingrained in baseball’s past.
Devon Young,
Using Baseball Reference’s Player Game Finder, I found Blyleven lost 36 of these games when giving up 2 or less runs, and he won 211 of these as well. So 211-36 sounds about right to me, if not more lucky that Blyleven didn’t lose more of these games.
Losses:http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/pgl_finder.cgi?n1=blylebe01#n1=blylebe01&as=result_pitcher&offset=0&st=&WL=any&team_lg=&opp_lg=&throws=any&HV=any&Role=anyGS&DEC=L&c1val=2&c2val=0&c3val=0&c4val=0&firstgames=&firstteamgames=&min_year_game=1970&max_year_game=1992&series=any&series_game=any&team_id=&opp_id=&game_site=&orderby=date_game&c1pgl=R&c1gtlt=lt&c2pgl=&c2gtlt=eq&c3pgl=&c3gtlt=eq&c4pgl=&c4gtlt=eq
Wins: http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/pgl_finder.cgi?n1=blylebe01#n1=blylebe01&as=result_pitcher&offset=0&st=&WL=any&team_lg=&opp_lg=&throws=any&HV=any&Role=anyGS&DEC=W&c1val=2&c2val=0&c3val=0&c4val=0&firstgames=&firstteamgames=&min_year_game=1970&max_year_game=1992&series=any&series_game=any&team_id=&opp_id=&game_site=&orderby=date_game&c1pgl=R&c1gtlt=lt&c2pgl=&c2gtlt=eq&c3pgl=&c3gtlt=eq&c4pgl=&c4gtlt=eq
I just wanted to point out the frailties of memory: the event described by Brent just didn’t happen. Bell was in one World Series with the D-Backs, obviously, in 2001.
The closest thing to that happening was the ninth inning of game 7. Nobody led off with a double; there was a single and then an error by Rivera to put runners on first and second. Bell did ground out, but it wasn’t to third, and it wasn’t after pulling two pitches foul. He tried to sacrifice, but on the FIRST pitch, and the ball went back to Rivera, who threw to third to get the force.
The other possibility is Game 6, where Bell did ground to third base after a double (not the leadoff hitter; the second batter of the inning), and the game was close at the time, though it turned into a blowout win for Arizona. But he didn’t pull two pitches foul first, and it wasn’t late in the game; it was the second inning. And the runner DID eventually score.
None of that has anything to do with Bell’s Hall of Fame case, of course; it’s just an example of why we shouldn’t rely on memory in evaluating players.
Would kill to hear Barry cover “This Ain’t No Picnic.”
Joe, I voted on your site for Blyleven, Henderson, Raines and Trammell –without question, in part because all of them compare favorably to at least a few strong, unquestioned HOFers. My biggest deliberation was whether or not to vote for Tommy John, who I decided was never sufficiently dominant, and was at best comparable to Don Sutton, a pretty fringe HOF choice. Murphy, Parker and Rice are all respectable candidates who also fall short of my (admittedly tough) standards. Morris and Dawson, though, are really beyond the pale statistically: thanks for your comparison of Dawson’s OBP to a bunch of slick-fielding, mediocre-hitting HOF infielders’ and your reader’s comparison of Morris’ to Jamie Moyer’s career stats… cases closed.
I grew up in Boston in the 70s and 80s, and while I was and am still a Red Sox fan, my favorite players were Alan Trammell and Paul Molitor (actually they were the retired or deceased Lou Gehrig, Al Kaline, Roberto Clemente and Brooks Robinson, but that’s another story). When Trammell lost the MVP to George Bell in 1987 I tore up my old Jorge Bell baseball cards in protest. In retrospect, though, I’m not so sure Trammell was the most deserving candidate.
MVP awards are, like “Greatest Songs of the Eighties,” subjective (personally, I think Manilow did even worse than the BBWAA). That said, while your retrospective 80s MVP choices are a vast improvement on the likes of Kirk Gibson, Andre Dawson, Willie Hernandez (I still can’t quite believe that one), I think you were a bit eager in awarding Tim Raines and Alan Trammell multiple virtual consolation prizes. At least you resisted the temptation to somehow squeeze Frank White in.
Here’s the opening of an excellent column about the worst MVP choices by Jonah Keri on ESPN a few months ago:
“MVP voters often work backward when making their choices. First, they look at the four teams that made the playoffs from each league. Then, they attempt to figure out how they got to the postseason, and which player was most responsible for that success”.
That’s the only “reasoning” by which Hernandez could have been chosen MVP in 1984 after his Tigers blew away the rest of the AL East. Unfortunately, it’s also the only case for Trammell that year.
While Tony Armas won the slugger’s triple crown (HR, RBI, SO), a number of players had legitimately excellent offensive seasons, notably Eddie Murray, Dwight Evans, Dave Winfield, Wade Boggs and Don Mattingly. None was outstanding, though, and all played for AL East also-rans. Something similar happened among pitchers: Mike Boddicker, Dave Stieb and, yes, Bert Blyleven had excellent seasons, but none was head-and-shoulders above the others.
The bizarre result? MVP AND Cy Young awards to Willie Hernandez (some small justice was served as he lost the Rolaids Fireman award to Dan Quisenberry).
Trammell was a better choice in the other year the Tigers won the division, 1987. However, Wade Boggs had the best season in the American Leaugue, hands down (through no fault of his, the Sox finished 78-84, 20 games behind Detroit).
Raines in 1986 was arguably as valuable as the actual MVP, Mike Schmidt (it’s an apples-and-oranges toss-up). The clear retrospective 1987 NL MVP, however, is Jack Clark, who led the league in just about all the most important hitting categories. Clark’s Cardinals made it to the World Series, too, which is irrelevant to me but probably not to anyone who would have chosen Alan Trammell for Al MVP in ‘87 or ‘84.
BTW, I like Dwight Evans for the retrospective 1981 AL MVP… Bobby Grich would have been a good choice, too. The poor guys deserved much more Hall of Fame consideration, too.
And Lou Whitaker was so underrated by Hall of Fame voters he makes Trammell seem like Jim Rice.
NICE!! Has to be a first time ever blog reference of Ebn-Ozn!!
What about Shiny Shiny by Haysi Fantayzee?
“Hard to Say I’m Sorry” was my senior class song.
I’m pretty sure I’m not going to the 25th, either.
Just thought this was funny… Only 3 times in his career did Jack Morris have a better ERA+ than Mark Buehrle’s career average. Is Buehrle even going to be on the ballot when he retires?
Aaron M. gets it.
“Baseball has also always been a game of cheating.”
The rest of the museum in Cooperstown has the real good stuff, although it’s awesome to see the actual HoF plaques. (Who writes the stuff that’s cast in bronze, btw? I remember being surprised how I was moved by the legend on PeeWee Reese’s plaque.*)
*I just reread it and it’s nothing. I guess you had to be there.**
** Which, being there, is probably what the HoF is all about.
I have always thought true HoF credentials aren’t just the numbers and averages and streaks and strikeouts; HoF recognition should recognize, y’know, “fame“*
* “I’m gonna live forever!”
I think King Kelly is in the HoF for no other reason than cheating. He has so many rules in the book caused because he read the rules and didn’t break them; indeed his play changed the rule book itself. Hal McRae belongs in the King Kelly wing of Cooperstown.
I like it that Bobby Thompson’s “Shot Heard ‘Round the World” was a cheap pop up that just happened to be hit to the shallow porch of the Polo Grounds. And it’s one of the most famous events in baseball history.
A “Hall of Excellence” should be more accurate for most inductees; I have no problem with that. But there are some ballplayers who deserve to be remembered for their, y’know, “fame.” For what they did to make us love and become obsessed with this silly game.
We should have a place were we remember people like Bill Lee, Mark Fidrych, and Marv Throneberry not for their (to use Ted Williams’ perfect terminology) “baseballical” superiority, but for their transcendent impact on how we love the game and the people who play it.
[...] Hall of Fame Ballot 2009 [...]
I voted for 9. and my write in is PETE ROSE!!!!! Guilty Shoes Ain,t Got NO Rhythm !! LMAO
Joe,
Please do not get the Pete Rose thing going again. I mean the guy lied to us for several years. We (anyone with a brain) knew he was lying because they had the claim ticket and figerprint. The only reason that he finally admitted that he did bet on baseball is because he thought that they would let him in anyway. You can do a lot of things, but lying for several years and making us listen to people talk about how he was screwed is reason enough to keep him out.
I’m stunned that the Royals have only had one +.338 OBP season from a shortstop. Do you begin to think such a thing can only be the result of a concerted effort?
Monkeyhawk:
There’s a place … where things like that happen. And if you want to go, I can take you. [/raykinsella]
http://www.baseballreliquary.org/shrine.htm
(Seriously, I’ve been to the induction ceremony in Pasadena. It’s a trip. Highly recommend it for anyone in SoCal during mid-July.)
Two of Blyleven’s losses when allowing two runs or fewer were in relief appearances; he was 211-34 as a starter in such games, with 59 no-decisions.
Several recent vintage Hall of Fame pitchers had worse winning percentages in such games, including Fergie Jenkins, Catfish Hunter, Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, and Don Sutton. Ryan and Sutton also had a higher percentage of no-decision starts in which they allowed two runs or fewer.
If you’re going to make this argument, you should take a look at Tommy John. John allowed two runs or fewer in 330 starts, a higher percentage of his career decision total, with a worse winning percentage than Blyleven (205-40) and many more no-decisions (85). I’d argue that John’s got more of a case for being deprived of 300 wins as a result of non-support than does Blyleven.
The real issue with Blyleven here is not that he was poorly supported in those starts – but that he had relatively few of them when compared to other HOF pitchers and candidates. He allowed two runs or fewer in 304 starts, 44.4% of his career total. That seems like a lot – but it’s a lower percentage of his career total starts than every recent vintage Hall of Fame pitcher except for Jenkins and Phil Niekro. Of recent strong candidates who are not in, Kaat and Morris are worse, everyone else is better.
I’m with Spud. “Kokomo” is the absolute nadir of musical achievement. That said, I bet Manilow would have done a better job with it than the geriatric Beach “Boys”.
Aaron M: In Joe’s defense, he didn’t say that he liked Barry Manilow…he just wanted to see the back of the CD.
Nate
Oh, and Manilow doing “88 Lines About 44 Women”? That would be pure gold. How does “Thriller” make your list of great songs of the 80’s?
Rather than compare Mattingly to Puckett, I would do it to another player still on the ballot, Murphy. I don’t think either is a HOFer and agree that Mattingly is overrated by many fans. I also agree that Murphy has some advantages over Mattingly:
1. He played CF and did it very well. That does count, I know, but Mattingly was an excellent first baseman which should count for something also.
2. Murphy had a longer career. That should count too, but on the other side, much of that longer career was mediocre at best so that the extra four years does not really make much difference.
3. In his best years Murphy was generally an efficient base stealer which Mattingly never was. I am not sure there is evidence Murphy was a better base runner overall and in any case, stealing bases is only a marginal element of his career.
On the other hand, their peaks were about the same length, 6 years, and about the same value offensively. Mattingly’s career OPS+ is 127 to Murphy’s 121 and Don’s top 6 years were 156, 156, 161, 146, 128, 133. Murphy’s were 135, 142, 149, 149, 152, 157..
Their final lines were .307/.358/.471 for Mattingly and .265/.346/.469 for Murphy.
In Win Shares, Mattingly had a career total of 263 with highs of 34, 32, 29. Murphy had 294 for his career with highs of 33, 33, 32. Totaling Mattingly’s top 5 Win Share seasons you get 146; Murphy gets 150. And considering Win Shares per 162 games, Mattingly has 23.87 while Murphy has 21.84.
And while Murphy may have been an icon in the south, I don’t think that reputation should make much difference, certainly not more than Mattingly’s reputation in NY.
I can see the argument that Murphy has a slight advantage over Mattingly overall, but there are important areas in which Mattingly seems the superior player. I don’t think the difference is so great that one should get a “yes” vote and the other a “no”.
…”What about Reggie Smith? Or Luis Tiant? I realize neither one was as big of a star as Rice in Boston, and that trying to decide whether Tiant “counts†as black is a stupid, ultimately pointless argument. And that Rice certainly had to deal with racial B.S.
But I’m just not sure if that description is accurate…”
I believe Joe’s point was that Rice was the first black star to play most or all of his career in Boston. Smith was traded away. Tiant started with Cleveland and then Minnesota and then left for New York. Earl Wilson was traded. George Scott was traded. Cecil Cooper was traded. In fact, to this day, Rice is the only black player to play an entire career of any significant length in Boston.
Re: Bob R.,
I think your points are well made – I don’t think either deserve to be in the Hall of Fame.
The most telling line, though, is “…their peaks were about the same length, 6 years,…” Do we really think players who were on top of the game for only 6 years deserve enshrinement? Especially players who only had careers of a slightly more than a dozen seasons or so? If so, that is moderately depressing to me.
I realize Murphy has 18 years, but his first two and last two are essentially worthless.
>>”I like it that Bobby Thompson’s “Shot Heard ‘Round the World†was a cheap pop up that just happened to be hit to the shallow porch of the Polo Grounds. And it’s one of the most famous events in baseball history. <<”
He says, with the certainty of a man who was there, even though it was a sinking liner over a 17′ fence at the 315′ mark.
If I remember correctly, there’s a hidden track covering of People Who Died, by the Jim Carroll band on that Manilow album. Heavy stuff.
I did not vote for Rice on the poll, so obviously I can see and am persuaded by the argument he’s not a HOFer. That said, I really don’t think he’d be a bad choice and have trouble seeing him as the 10th best player on the list. By the way, you want to see bad numbers away from home, check out Dale Murphy.
I have a couple of opinions about how the hall of fame works:
First, I like stats. Stats are delicious.But, I think that sometimes the narrative might be as or more important than the stats. I can’t possibly be rational about Jim Rice because I’m from Massachusetts and he was my favorite player growing up. Outside Boston, I’m not sure what the power of his story was or is, but it seems like he was a pretty significant character in baseball in his era, in part because of his actual numbers, in part because of his perceived abilities, and in part because of his strong personality, with its pros and cons. Like I said, I’m a homer when it comes to Rice so I’ll leave whether he is worthy on the merits of HIS narrative to the more impartial but I think dismissing the CONCEPT of the narrative so strongly in favor of stats. It is a hall of FAME. Guys like Mazeroski and Puckett may not quite have made it on their statistical merits but there is something about their narratives that have rendered them worthy of remembrance.
My other thought is to contend that the Hall of Fame should not merely be a place of honor. I think the hall should serve the fans and students of baseball instead of the players and the image of the game. I don’t know whether players whose character has been deemed questionable deserve the honor of being in the hall but the people who go to the hall deserve to know about those players’ achievements and failings. Let Pete Rose into the hall but make it known how he may have disgraced the game. The Black Sox scandal is a huge part of the story of baseball and Shoeless Joe is a story worth telling.How McGwire and Sosa saved baseball and shamed themselves is a big part of the narrative of baseball. I think acknowledging the greatness and the failings of the games biggest names would be more in keeping with what a hall of FAME should be and would be a more interesting place. Most importantly, people interested enough in baseball to visit the Hall should be exposed to who these amazing but imperfect characters were.
typos in my post.:
quite a few. couldn’t live with failing to complete the thought:
“…but I think dismissing the CONCEPT of the narrative so strongly in favor of stats is a mistake.”
Left those last three words off the first time.
Glad to see somebody else point out one of the most blatant examples of East Coast bias in my lifetime – Mattingly winning the 85 MVP over Brett.
What a joke that was – not only did Brett have the better season statistically, he also did it as a Gold Glove 3B versus Mattingly as a 1B.
Throw in the incredible stretch of clutch performances down the stretch (Brett homered in like 5 games in a row or something, all the last week of the season, and with the pennant on the line virtually every night), and I remember being OUTRAGED when this vote was announced.
Any chance Rice gets in as an innovator? I mean, what he’s done for baseball bloggers in down right incredible.
So you voted no on Lee Smith because “I don’t know what the standards are?”
“I don’t know and no one else does either so I’m voting no.”
Bah.
You said yourself, Lee Smith only twice had an ERA+ under 100, finished with a 131 ERA+ and a 3.03 ERA. He was almost a run per 9 better than his peers (3.03 ERA vs 3.97 LgERA), .6 HR/9, 8.7 K/9 – over 18 seasons? And all of this is ignoring saves so whatever value those has gets added on top.
Who cares if there’s no prior consistency among relievers? What does that have to do with Lee’s eligibility?
Tommy John can be barely better than his peers (110 ERA+) and deserves to get in while Lee can be far better (131 ERA+) and should be out?
Mark Grace: You’re voting no based on what the manager did? To me, that’s what you’re saying when you bring up how he never hit in his “proper” spot. What’s that got to do with how Grace himself played? 8 years of .390 or better OBP and has many years of 120 or better OPS+. You say Grace didn’t hit for power – well his SLG% is only 27 points lower than Murphy’s…
Don Mattingly vs Kirby Puckett: So 97 AB…that’s all Puckett had in the postseason, is enough to make Puckett a yes and Mattingly a no?
Wow. What an awesome, awesome post. If someone asked me why this blog is my first stop every day, I’d send them this post.
I have no problem at all with engaging in a little gamesmanship and voting for borderline candidates just to help keep them on the ballot.
In fact, I think it would be a big improvement to the process if voters could vote “Yes”, “No”, or “Abstain/Defer” for each candidate. The abstentions would then not count to the No total and would be an indication that the voter believes this player can not yet be fairly judged. I think this would be a good option for many steroid-era sluggers and virtually all closers.
One thing The Hall loves about relief pitchers is when they have a lot of saves AND wins.
Eckersely, Gossage, Wilhelm and Fingers have the top 4 win/save harmonic means of all time. (like power speed number, but with wins and saves).
Smoltz will get in for the same reason.
P.S. Sutter was the first and only reliever to be elected without many wins, I think it will be awhile before another is elected, probably Hoffman or Rivera.
I voted Rickey, Bert, Alan, Raines, and McGwire.
And I have a few comments on two of them.
For Blyleven, we just need to forget about wins. There relationship to good pitching is mearly casual. Maybe he didn’t get jobbed on 2 runs or less starts, but maybe he did for his 3+ run starts, relative to other pitchers. Anyway, forget about wins entirely, they suck. We need to ask how good was Bert while he was pitching, not how often did his team get him the lead while he was pitching and not give up the lead for the rest of the game. So, when we ask the right question Bert comes out as a GREAT pitcher. I won’t redo all of tha analysis, we’ve seen it plenty of times, on this site and others. However, one thing I will mention, of baseball reference’s top 10 comps to Bert, 8 are in the HOF, and the other two have some pretty good cases, Kaat and Tommy John. His closest comp is Don Sutton, who spent just 5 years on the ballet before being elected with an 81.6%.
And as for McGwire and the so call steroid era. My thinking is this, we are not 100% sure that any of these suspected users actually did use. Where is the blood test for McGwire? Sure we got a bottle of Ando on him, but that wasn’t illegal or against the rules. All we have is a suspicon, he got big and hit a lot of HRs. Well he hit a lot of HRs in very unfriendly park to HR hitters his roockie season too. Then of course, we also don’t know with 100% certainty that other players (ie. Maddox, A-rod, Jeter, other sure HOFers from this era that aren’t questioned), didn’t do it. So, by not voting for guys like McGwire, and eventually Bonds, we are selectively, reto-actively, punishing those who fit our idea of a “steroid user.” Also, using drugs is not grounds to be kept out of the HOF or banned from baseball. If someone is caught on drugs they get punsihed, and eventually return to the game. This is true for all forms of cheating. Things like betting on baseball (Rose) and throwing games (Shoeless Joe), are different and not comparable to cheating. Those two are rightfully banned from baseball and the HOF, this is not true of cheaters and never should be.
Lastly, i would like to attack the idea of “performance enhancing drugs.” What exactly is a performance enhancing drug? Can someone make a clear definition so that I know what is, and why it carries a higher punishment than other forms of cheating? As I understand it, we don’t like steroids because they have some harmful side effects and we don’t want to pressure players (and oh the kids!) to use them (though of course no one cared about them until 756 was in danger). Well the same can be said for creatine. Nearly every year you hear of a kid on creatine who get dehydrated and dies (wrestlers cutting weight and football players doing “double-days” with coaches that don’t let them take water breaks). What of players that get Lasik? That opperation carries some risk. And then, of course, how do we know steroids are performance enhancers? Sure you get bigger, recover faster from workouts, but I still haven’t seen the study where players on steroids are better than those not on steroids.
Now, I agree steroids are bad, and should be illegal/against the rules, but why the special case? That’s my hange up. If a player gets a DUI, we hardly bat an eyelash, but steroids —- oh he black listed for ever.
If you ask me this all adds up to so many shades of gray that it is just plain pointless to try to go back, ex-post-facto, and punish the players that we now THINK took steroids. Steroids have been around a long time, and it isn’t impossible that guys like Rickey Henderson or Hank Aaron took them.
Matt the Brave:
You’re incorrect about Murphy’s time in Atlanta being “before the one team one player” rule. That rule has been in effect since at least the 1969 expansion (which is why San Diego’s Chris Cannizaro was an All-Star in 1969, for example).
As for Rice…
I didn’t vote for him in the poll here, but I think in retrospect the argument that it’s not all about the stats has some merit, and if I had the ballot to do over, I’d probably go ahead and give him a tick. I think the same argument might hold true for Murphy as well, though; one could say that if you’re the absolute face of a franchise with little to no other talent, and all on your own you’re a borderline case… maybe that’s enough to push you over. Imagine how we might view him had he been able to make several post-season appearances in his prime; you can’t blame him for the horrible teams he was on, right? (And let’s be honest — how many guys are in the hall from the Yankee Dynasty years who wouldn’t have survived on the ballot if they’d played for Washington?)
The Smiths and New Order?? Bravo, Joe.
It’s good to see that ‘Ole Manilow isn’t immune to the RickRoll (but really, who amongst you is??).
Also good to see a reference to the greatest movie ever, High Fidelity. I too would like to see Jack Black go off on Manilow for re-recording that, quote, “sentimental tacky crap,” though I’d like to think his character’s taste for irony would prevent any neo-hipster backlash; he was, after all, wearing a Yanni shirt in the film…and his name was Barry. Ah, what a tangled web…I digress…
One more thing: If I were a space alien, and landed on this planet for the purposes of peaceful co-habitation and mutual scientific exploration, and was learning all that there was to learn about American culture in order to successfully complete my alien mission, President Obama need only show me one picture in order to teach me all I would need to know and encapsulate the entire breadth and width of what it meant to be alive for the entirety of the 80’s:
http://www.hearya.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/richard-marx.jpg
…awesome…
At the risk of having my Guy Card pulled, I think we have to distinguish the 70s Manilow, who really was an awesome performer AND musician (co-writing most of his songs, playing piano and arranging) from the 00s Manilow, who is apparently hanging around to pad his counting stats in an effort to reach the Hall. Kinda like when Pete was managing the Reds.
I decided a long time ago that I wasn’t hip enough to begin with to waste time trying to protect my hipster cred, and would instead stick with things I enjoy — like chain restaurants, argyle socks, and Barry.
Two songs on that Manilow CD that are crying out to be covered.
Islands In The Stream. Phenomenal song that could be a hit again if stripped down and covered by the right duo. The Kenny/Dolly version is schmaltzed up beyond belief – are you kidding with that horn section? – although I guess you can’t blame them for going for the big score.
Against All Odds. Great song totally butchered by Phil Collins’ grandstanding and shite voice. Imagine it re-done by Elliot Smith.
I needed to stop what I was doing and commend you on the High Fidelity reference.
Postal Service did a good cover of Against All Odds.
Speaking of Elliott Smith, his cover of Trouble by Cat Stevens is quite good…well, all his stuff is quite good.
Let’s see…
Ty Cobb probably murdered a guy, very nearly beat a black guy to death in an elevator with a pistol for being “insolent,” ran into the stands and beat the hell out of a handless dude for calling him a half-youknowwhat, might have fixed games, sharpened his spikes so he could actually hurt people when he slid into them, and was generally an evil sadistic a-hole.
Mark McGwire donated a ton of his time and money to a charity for abused children during his time in St. Louis. He also probably used some sort of PED, although it has never been proven conclusively beyond Andro (which was perfectly legal at the time). Even if he did, which I concede he probably did, he was hardly the only one. He played in an era where MLB turned its back to all of this and said, “Just keep hitting bombs baby!”
Sosa, Ripken, and McGwire helped save baseball…and what do Sosa and Big Mac get for it? A Stephen Colbert-style Wag of the Finger…only in a mean, scornful way…not a joking one….rant ended.
Anyway…we have a violent racist who beat the poo out of anyone who made him mad and literally assaulted other players IN the Hall, which everyone is pretty much okay with, and over here we have a man who is an exceedingly good human being who also *gasp* did what most other people were doing to get an edge. But McGwire has nebulous “character” issues…right. Mmmmkay. We’re all okay with that then? Well, daggone it…I’m NOT!
I hate to admit that I know this, but the George Michael album that Joe is referring to was actually called “Listen Without Prejudice, Vol. 1″. (There was no Vol. 2, by the way.) “Praying for Time” was the first single.
This album was HUGE in 1990, but you never hear anything from it now.
My ballot:
Rickey: his speech has the potential to be the greatest thing ever. Not just speeches. Things. Like, over the wheel, and string cheese, and sliced bread…maybe even over air and water too.
Raines: second best leadoff hitter ever. He used coke…and I don’t care (see above, coke users aren’t okay but murdering racists are). Career .385 OBP is impossible to ignore. He was also a brilliant base stealer in an era when stolen bases meant more. IN!
Blyleven: the best pitcher on the outside looking in. He didn’t win 300…who cares. Wins don’t mean a damn thing other than you pitched relatively well on a good team.
Trammell: very fine player who is sort of overshadowed by two of his peers–Ripken and Ozzie Smith. He didn’t hit like the first and didn’t field like the second. But he was exceedingly good at both. I think he’s also hurt by the fact that he didn’t really have a peak…he had peak seasons, but they were sort of scattered. He also played in Detroit. However a SS who fields well and puts up OPS+ seasons of 155, 138, 138, 137, 135, 130 is pretty difficult to ignore. IN!
McGwire: see above. I want to see an argument that puts him out based on anything other than PED claims.
Outs: Rice and Dawson. These two are sort of tough. Okay that’s not true…Dawson is easy. I realize that sluggers of his era didn’t work the count like they do today. However, he worked the count far worse than his peers. Nope. Rice was a poor fielder who benefitted tremendously from playing in Fenway. His road OPS is .789. Yuck. And he wasn’t feared, b/c he wasn’t intentionally walked all that much. Period. Out and out!
Great call on Murphy. He was arguably the best player in baseball for a six year period, and anyone who meets that standard should be in. If those who want to see a long mediocre decline phase to round out the continuing numbers aren’t satisfied, perhaps they can turn to the character clause or Murphy’s status as a regional icon (of course, if he had played in Boston or New York, that region would be “the nation.”)
“Postal Service did a good cover of Against All Odds.”
Really? Good tip. I will get it on itunes tonight. Thanks.
I agree with the many posters who believe that McGwire belongs in the HOF. I do so by ascribing the virtually certain universality of some form of PED usage in a game that Selig refused to proactively control for fear of the game’s failure to recover from the disastous strike……and it is certainly obvious that those guys throwing the pitces were using as well. McGwire has always been an honorable guy as well…..which should be considered on a case by case basis…..like a tie breaker of sorts. I also believe you must allow some of the pricks in as well….like cobb and hornsby whose numbers and skills are so outlandish that they mandate inclusion.
While i am completely turned off by Palmeiro’s hypocrisy ….he must be included when his time is appropriate or the hall will completely lose its credibility
How good was Andre Dawson’s defense in center?
I don’t think Joe should be ashamed, in any way, reguarding being a fan of Manilow, or at least a fan of some of his songs.
Here are 3 things that EVERYONE likes, and nobody will every convince me otherwise:
1. At least a few Manilow songs
2. Air Supply
3. That Lady in Red song by the guy who used to QB the Chiefs…uh…Chris DeBerg or something
As far as the hall of fame vote on this site goes, I ended up with Grace, Baines, Mattingly, and Cone all on my ballot. This is because I didn’t have the time (or inclination right now) to do the thorough research that would be necessary for such a vote the same way Joe does it (I voted before I read this post) and I just voted for the guys I remember as good.
Sadly, I think this is the way a lot of the actual voters cast their votes as well.
>>”How good was Andre Dawson’s defense in center?”<<
He won four Gold Gloves out of the six full seasons he played there. Won four more while playing RF. Had a cannon for an arm and good speed. Tore up his body, especially his knees bouncing off the walls and hard turf of Olympic Stadium, and by his late twenties he was basically a cripple who became strictly a power hitter.
Ranks 25th all time in total bases, though he was 21st when he retired, having been passed by Molitor, Ripken, Bonds, and Palmeiro. Every man who has more (and many who have less) is a Hall of Famer, except Palmeiro.
Ranks 7th all time in the Power/Speed number category, whatever the hell that is. But whatever it is, he’s in decent company….
1. Barry Bonds* (43) 613.90 L
2. Rickey Henderson 490.41 R
3. Willie Mays+ 447.05 R
4. Bobby Bonds 386.01 R
5. Joe Morgan+* 385.90 L
6. Alex Rodriguez (32) 374.40 R
7. Andre Dawson 365.78 R
Didn’t walk enough, though, so he sucks ass. In fact, he gets worse every year.
If he’d played his prime in the AL he’d probably be much better, especially around here.
>>”Here are 3 things that EVERYONE likes, and nobody will every convince me otherwise:
1. At least a few Manilow songs
2. Air Supply
3. That Lady in Red song by the guy who used to QB the Chiefs…uh…Chris DeBerg or something<<”
Good God, man. I think you may be the only person that applies to.
I thought the “whatever the Hell that is” caveat was a nice Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer type touch to you argument, Johnny.
For some odd reason, “Careless Whisper” is probably the first song on my baseball fandom soundtrack. It reminds me (and maybe not so coincidentally, a couple of my childhood friends) of going to Pawtucket Red Sox games as kids. Maybe it just happened to be playing on the radio everytime our dads took us to McCoy Stadium back in the mid-80s.
Even to this day, that song reminds me baseball. And yes, I love it.
Quite a digression there, Joe. I want to hear that hidden track of Barry covering Jim Carroll’s ‘People Who Died’. As much as I hate his music, I’d listen to the whole album if I could have a Hall of Fame vote!
.
I am kind of embarrassed to admit that I went to a Barry Manilow concert (at the behest of my wife, an otherwise rational person), and that it was not bad. Not Bruce, but not bad. I won’t buy the CD, though if Manilow had put a Bob Seger song on there I’d be tempted to listen to it. I bet he’d do a nice job with “Turn the Page” (a 70s song), but “Against the Wind” (1980, I think) seems a little bit of a reach.
And it’s hard to give Jim Rice props for being a big Boston star who thrived despite racism. A guy named Bill Russell had to deal with worse during a tougher time in race relations in the US, and he managed to stick around Boston for his entire career.
I’m commenting too much today…
I don’t think dealing with racism in a city is a zero sum game – like since Bill Russell dealt with 5 units of racially motivated abuse in his career, there were no units of abuse left for Jim Rice to deal with.
>>â€Here are 3 things that EVERYONE likes, and nobody will every convince me otherwise:
1. At least a few Manilow songs
2. Air Supply
3. That Lady in Red song by the guy who used to QB the Chiefs…uh…Chris DeBerg or something<<â€
I went O’FER on this list.
These are hardly universal truths. Did you mean to write “these are three things NO ONE likes”?
“…And it’s hard to give Jim Rice props for being a big Boston star who thrived despite racism. A guy named Bill Russell had to deal with worse during a tougher time in race relations in the US, and he managed to stick around Boston for his entire career.”
Not really a fair comparison since Russell worked for perhaps the most progressive franchise in the NBA in terms of racial equality. The Celtics drafted the first black player in league history. They had the first all-black starting five in league history. They had the first black head coach in league history. Five black head coaches have won NBA titles and three of them did it with the Celtics.
The Red Sox? Not so much.
All right, maybe I’m a big-tent music guy–after all the first two tapes I owned were “Tunnel of Love” and “Whenever You Need Somebody”, and I have been known to walk out of the record store with a handful of records including acts ranging from Scorpions to Elliott Smith (who was a huge Scorpions fan, by the way) to Prince to The Icicle Works to Fleet Foxes to Drive-By Truckers to Kate Bush–but I think Toto IV is pretty outstanding. I think Toto are largely written off without due diligence. After all, they were the studio band on Thriller, responsible for the score for Dune, and the brains behind such amazing songs as “Africa”, “Rosanna”, and “Hold the Line”.
And without any shame whatsoever, I also own Can’t Slow Down, No Jacket Required, and Christopher Cross. Christopher Cross is the weakest of those albums, but “Sailing” is pretty awesome. But this is all coming from a guy whose multiple Gerry Rafferty albums sit right next to Transformer with Robbie Dupree’s self-titled debut nestled comfortably between a couple Dire Straits records and about 10 Bob Dylan albums and Rick Springfield coming right before Greetings From Asbury Park.
“Lady in Red” is my ring tone for my girlfriend, but even I do not like Air Supply, DF.
Gate,
That Elliott Smith cover of “Trouble” is pretty outstanding (not that the original is anything less than that either). Have you heard his cover of “Thirteen”–Big Star, not Danzig? It’s also pretty great.
Ah c’mon guys, how come Air Supply is getting no love (They’re all out of love)?
Admit it, when Lady in Red, or Mandy, or one of the Air Supply hits comes on the radio when you are in your car alone…you don’t change the station. And, you’ll never convince me that you do.
It’s like that scene in Tommy Boy with Farley, Spade, and the Carpenters.
I’ve seen way too many awkwardly homoerotic Air Supply videos to be able to enjoy them. That one at the carnival sticks out as being especially bad, but that performance video where the Horshack wannabe is wearing that button-up tiger shirt rivals it in crappiness.
i don’t know if big star’s ‘thirteen’ could possibly be improved (even by elliott smith). danzig’s either, fwiw (although can you imagine if elliott smith covered that song?? amazing).
also, denying the amazingness of coca cabana is just ridiculous.
Can we please stop claiming an Eastern or NY bias in award voting? It is simply not true. Historically, there is no preponderance of winners from East Coast teams or from NY teams. Since 1990, 5 MVPs have come from the AL East (Ripken, A-Rod twice, Pedroia and Mo Vaughn, and 4 from the NL East (Pendleton, Chipper, Ryan Howard and Rollins). And this despite the fact that the Yankees were usually in the post-season from 1995 on.
If the argument is that the worst choices have come when East coast players have won the award I would point you to 1999 when despite being arguably the best player in the league on a division winner, Jeter not only lost out in the MVP voting to Ivan Rodriguez, but came in 6th. There is simply no evidence that East Coast teams get more awards or are less deserving when they do. And incidentally, the same is true for HOF voting in which there is no evidence that NY players or East coast players have some advantage.
Smith always sang with so much more vulnerability than Chilton did. I might actually prefer his cover to the original if only for that.
to be honest, i hadn’t listened to smith’s version before this, as i didn’t have new moon (i generally despise posthumous releases).
but it’s pretty much exactly what i expected (which isn’t bad). still, no way am i buying that chilton wasn’t singing with vulnerability. i have always considered this one of the saddest songs ever written. and while smith’s shtick lends its hand perfectly to a song like this — to hear chilton switch it up from his usual vigor, to… this — well, it just makes everything more intense.
Interesting take on Thirteen. I see it more as Chilton channeling his usual arrogance into a teenager’s attempt at seduction.
It’s gentle, sure, but there’s still some swagger there. With Chilton it’s like deep down he knows he’s gonna get this girl. With Elliot, it’s like he’s never really sure if anyone loves him.
Motherscratcher — not sure where yoou’ve been hanging around but you’re clearly deluded. Racing to change the station is more my reaction to a Manilow or heaven forbid, Air Supply song. Of course, the stations I listen to, that’s rarely a problem. I live in Vegas, and have turned down free Manilow tickets on more than one occasion. Ane ven better story is 20 years ago when I was interning at the big Rock station in NY, the Stones were touring for the first time in years. The station held a contest, “What would you do for front row tickets to the Stones?” Listeners submitted a variety of crazy ideas, and the winner was someone who said he would listen to Barry Manilow for 48 hours straight.
On a separate note, I loved the eclectic nature of Joe’s list of music, including some deep tracks by big artists — “Driver 8″ is an R.E.M. gem. I also have to vouch for the brilliance of Midnight Oil, but Beds are Burning is not close to the best of them, even from that album. As for awful ’80s music, no conversation could be complete without a plethora of awful hair metal bands — anything that was a hit by Warrant, Winger, Skid Row etc. is almost by definition awful.
Love the non-stop HOF talk to get us through the offseason. I think my Hall of Fame rules come down to this. Just looking at the period after the color barrier was broken I think there should be about 30 Hall of famers for every 20 year period and those 30 should be about 8-10 up the middle defenders, about 8-10 pitchers, and 10-12 corner outfielders/infielders
30 guys from 50s/60s
Berra, Campy, Jrobinson, Banks, Aparicio, Mantle, Mays, Doby, Snider, Killibrew, Mccovey, Matthews, Santo, Brooks, Roberto, Kaline, FRobinson, Musial, TWilliams, BWilliams, Aaron, Spahn, Gibson, Koufax, Drysdale, Marichial, Roberts, Ford, Wynn, Wilhelm
30 guys from 70s/80s
Fisk, Carter, Bench, Carew, Sandberg, Morgan, Ozzie, Yount, Trammell, Puckett, Stargell, Murray, Brett, Schmidt, Winfield, Jackson, Yaz, Raines, Brock, Rickey, Molitor, Seaver, Carlton, Ryan, Fergie, Bert, Palmer, Perry, Niekro, Eck
90s/00s (3 of these guys need resume help still, but are on right track)
Piazza, Pudge, Posada (needs help), Biggio, Alomar, Larkin, Ripken, Jeter, Arod, Griffey, Pujols, McGwire, BigHurt, Boggs, Chipper, Bonds, Sosa, Gwynn, Vlad (couple more years), Ichiro (5 more good years), ManRam, Thome, Clemens, Maddux, Unit, Pedro, Smoltz, Glavine, Schilling, Rivera
If for whatever reason Posada, Ichiro, or Vlad fall away rapidly, somebody like Berkman or Santana can step in to take their spot. I do slightly discount for PEDs but only slightly.
Guys who don’t make my HOF are: Raffy, Dawson, Bagwell (just missed), Perez, Allen, Rice, Mcgriff, Sheffield, Ashburn, Sutton, Mussina (also just missed), Hunter, LeeSmith, Gossage, Fingers, Sutter, Bunning
As you can see I don’t like closers (just one per period)
imagine if barry manilow put out a cover album of songs from sonic youth, joy division, the pixies, the melvins, et al
that would be the most amazing record ever made
“Driver 8″ hit #22 on the US Billboard chart. Not exactly a deep cut. Now if Joe had mentioned “Maps and Legends”, a wonderful song from the same album, _that_ would have been a deep cut. Especially if it was the live version that was the flip of the “It’s the End of the World As We Know It” single.
I never thought I’d get Rickrolled on your blog.
Oh well, that Jay Bell = Roger Dorn line was worth it. Hilarious.
I had a 40-game package with a buddy in ‘97 and we saw Dorn…errr Bell dog it MANY times. Hilarious. Hilarious. Hil-bleeping-arious.
Actually the Elliott Smith cover of Thirteen first appeared on the soundtrack to a movie called Thumbsucker – not on New Moon.
And to bring this full circle: Jim Rice’s favorite musician: Elliott Smith.
No, I don’t have independent confirmation of that, but it stands to reason.
OMG- Joe as I read this to my wife (which I do most of the time) she found the Barry offering on ITunes. Awful. You didn’t mention that Islands in the Stream is with Reba! Or that Barry does a Bosa Nova version of I Just Called to Say I Love You. Oh man is this terrible. The versions of Open Arms and Time After Time are travesties.
Is Greg Vaughn still the MLB record holder for most home runs by a player whose last name begins with ‘V’?
Driver 8 hit #22 on the Billboard Modern Rock chart…in 1985. Or not — 2 different pages of Wikipedia have it peaking at 22 on two different charts. In any case, the album was not a huge seller, and R.E.M. was still playing at colleges in ‘85, so the Modern Rock chart is more likely. Peaking at 22 on the modern rock chart in 1985 is not a hit — more like peaking at 22 on the classical album chart now. I worked in rock radio for 5 years, and the song is not in most stations’ libraries.
I just looked it up – he is!
Current players adding to their dominance of last-name-first-letter HR dominance: KGriffey Jr, J Thome, C Delgado, C Utley, and C Quentin (who just unseated Jamie Quirk’s long reign!)
Oops – Quirk had given way to KC’s own Mark Quinn in 2002. I guess we have our #2 and #3 for the Qs.
Elliott Smith had been playing “Thirteen” live for quite a while. I know I’ve had a downloaded version of “Thirteen” since at least 2000, and now that I’ve checked on it, the original source for the cover was a 1997 film “Lucky Three: An Elliott Smith Portrait” from 1997.
Andre Dawson is getting treated kind of unfairly here IMO. His great defense is being ignored and he’s only being looked at for his offensive numbers alone. He won 8 gold gloves, half of them in CF. Combine that with a career 119 OPS+ (would’ve been higher if he didn’t hang around for 4 years too long after his legs were ruined) good speed and a cannon arm. The one weakness in his game was not walking, but he still had good offensive numbers, especially for a gold-glove winning OF.
There are plenty of players in the Hall who were terrible defenders but get in for their bats. Dawson was a far better defender than them. Defense is a pretty important part of the game, but it’s ignored in those cases.
In a few other cases, guys who were only defensive stars get in, but Dawson was a far better hitter than them. His overall game is being underrated IMO.
I realize that the commenters here are all about OBP, but while that is hugely important, it isn’t all there is to the game.
Just saw Johnny’s comment above, good to see someone point out some of the strengths in Dawson’s game.
Re: Eastern bias in award voting: Thank you Bob R. The one thing I would add in response to the specific year (1985) mentioned by another commenter is that Mattingly that year had 145 RBI, far ahead of anyone else. The writers have awarded MVPs for similar performances on many, many occasions, regardless of where the guy played.
Dear Joe,
Your thought-provoking column on this year’s Hall nominee once again summoned what I consider a little-cited statistical problem that many of this year’s nominees have: The Players’ Union strikes of 1981 and 1994-1995. Valuable career stats were sacrificed by these strikes.
Three nominees who forewent “tipping point” stats due to their decision to strike were Bert Blyleven, Tommy John and erstwhile Players’ Union leader David Cone. In Cone’s case…
If he had not spearheaded the 1994-1995 strike, alienating many fans in the process, Cone likely would have won about 205 games, and burnished an already excellent winning percentage. His 1994 season, 2/3 complete, was 16-5, so his full-year 1994 win total could have been 24 or 25. The next season he lost two or three more wins because the strike wasn’t yet settled. With 205 wins, a perfect game, and World Series heroics, Cone might well be a serious Hall candidate.
So, David Cone probably made himself more money, at the time by striking. However he has sacrificed any chance at the Hall, which could earn him far more appearance income for many years. Hope he remembers Marvin Miller, the agent provocateur of the Player strikes.
re: Boston racism
The first baseball game I ever went to was a 1977 Twins/Sox game at Fenway. Rice was making a rare appearance in right field. I was in the right field grandstand fairly close to the field and my strongest memory of the game was of a guy a couple rows away incessantly berating Rice for being, among other things, a lazy n*****. I imagine that was not a nightly occurrence but racism was alive and well in the Boston sports scene well after Bill Russell stopped wearing Celtics green.
You now have to scan through multiple pages to see all the comments? I do not like this, Sam I Am. As much as I come here for Joe’s posts, the comments can keep me returning to participate in the debate time and again.
Personally, I’d cast a vote for Big Star’s Thirteen as still being the best version, with Wilco’s version second.
Good to see Dawson getting some love. I have to admit, he’s someone I always really, really want to vote for in these online polls, but I can never bring myself to do so because he was sub-par at the most important thing a non-pitcher can do in the game – getting on base. His fielding is a definite notch in his favour, but I’m not sure you can say that he was ever a truly transcendent fielder, like an Ozzie Smith. Great D at a key position, sure, but Ozzie was considered the hands-down best-ever and I don’t think you can say that about Hawk.
I will say this, though – someone pointed out the four years he hung around at the end of his career, and I think that hurt him in more ways than one. First, it diminished his overall line, but more importantly, it gave time for the importance of OBP to become more mainstream knowledge. If he’d retired after, say, 1993 (when he hit his 400th HR), he might have had a better chance, since so many voters looked more at BA in those days. A .280-hitting, multiple Gold Glove-winning centerfielder with 2,600 hits, 400 HR and 300 steals? If he’d been on the ballot in 1998 or 1999, that would have definitely looked good to a ton of voters. Not saying he would have been elected, but the biggest blemish on his record wasn’t as well-recognized back then.
Also, Manilow is terrible. At best, he’s kitschy and campy enough to elicit some ironic laughter. Air Supply’s no better – the best thing about them is the SNL VH1 bit Will Ferrell and Chris Kattan did where they spoofed those guys.
I don’t know if I’d want to see Manilow cover actual songs I liked (nor do I assume he would – I think our ideas as to what constitutes good music are too far apart.) The best you could hope for would be an ironic album, like the ones put out by William Shatner or the Mike Flowers Pops, and I don’t think old Barry’s self-aware enough to send up his own image like that.
Third straight post. Sorry about this, y’all.
Nate Tubbs Rules,
Interesting take on the Hall. I have a few quibbles with your suggestions. I don’t think Posada’s going to add hugely to his case as a 37-year-old catcher, for instance, and I think Vlad’s already in. I don’t see a baseball argument for keeping Raffy out, and you can’t use the steroid argument since you have some other juicers in there – how much do you discount for PED usage?
I think your positional guidelines are reasonable, but they have to be just that – guidelines. If there were a golden age of pitching, for instance, I think that should be reflected.
As for the 20-year segment element, it’s kind of hard to separate players that way, since careers tend to straddle eras. As a few for-instances, you listed Rickey as a 70s/80s guy when he played more in the 90s/00s. He built his case in the 80s, sure, but you listed Boggs in the 90s/00s when his most Hall-worthy years were in the 80s. Likewise, 70s/80s selection Eckersley really solidified his case in the 90s, even though the majority of his career came earlier than that. Puckett? I guess he’d straddle the line almost exactly (a bit better in the 80s than the 90s, but didn’t play enough years or amass enough numbers in either era.)
“One of my all-time guilty pleasures, sadly enough, is George Michael’s “Praying For Time†album. I do not make excuses for this; my taste is my own, and I like that album.”
Make no excuses, Joe. That is a great album.
The real shame isn’t enjoying the album, the real shame is that it represents such an absolute anomaly in the career of George Michael.
It is interesting, because the album is tagged as “Volume 1.” How sad that even George has understood he will never be able to reach the appropriate heights to create a Volume 2.
Great column, Joe. As for 80’s music, I would note my daughter (born at end of 1983) commented when she was about 10: “80’s music scares me.”
The combination of Barry Manilow AND those songs…now that scares ME.
I was in Boston in the spring and fall from fall 77 to spring 80 in law school, and back then a law student who was barely above “broke” could actually get a ticket, and afford it, at Fenway, so I saw quite a few games there. The openly racist comments about Rice were all too frequent. And I have a distinct memory of him sending a fastball by Royals pitcher Jim Colborn into low earth orbit towards the Citgo sign. Having said that, I did not note the alleged “fear factor” that the Boston media now use to tout Rice. Of course, when the Royals played the Red Sox in Fenway when I was there, all the Red Sox seemed pretty scary. But when the Royals got the plodding Sox onto the astroturf in KC, that evened things up. In any event, Rice has no more business in the hall of fame than Evans.
Thanks to Joe for passing along that career comparison of Morris and Moyer. Shocked is too mild a word for my reaction to Moyer having only 200 fewer K’s. Maybe Moyer got to face the Royals a lot more? One of my favorite, though painful, baseball memories is sitting about 5 or 6 rows behind the plate a few years ago when Moyer was pitching against the Royals. If I was at home, i would go dig out my scorecard, but it was like watching a mild mannered, apparently harmless pickpocket remove all the valuables from a totally clueless victim. Moyer threw two pitches the entire day: 82 mph ‘fastball”, either on the inside or outside corner, at the knees. And 76 mph offspeed something or other–it didn’t have much break, but wasn’t a straight change, generally 2-3 inches off either corner, at the knees. All day. 82 or 76. Not a lot of movement. But perfectly placed. Needless to say, the Royals hacked away. And then went back to dugout meekly. All night. if greg Maddux pitched with the guts of a burgler, Moyer pitched with the guts of a burgler stealing the crown jewels. While the queen wore them. In front of a huge crowd at Buckingham Palace.
The justification for why you decided to vote for McGwire seems just about dead on to me–almost certain rampant PED use from the 90’s to whenever, the long-running but long-ignored greenie issue, etc., etc. However, when you toss in that you would vote for Pete Rose, too, you lose me.
Let me state up front that this is not a morality issue. Ty Cobb was almost certainly a bigger scumbag than Pete Rose, yet Cobb belongs in the Hall and Rose does not.
The Hall of Fame is predicated on there being a competitive endeavor called baseball within which people can rise above being just astonishingly good, and thereby deserve entry. Betting (and its inevitable extension to rigging) doesn’t just taint it, it brings the whole thing down by taking out the foundation of a competition*. Even the spectacle we witnessed from ‘95 on of one bloated guy after another whacking the snot out of the ball had some merit–they were doing their utmost to hit the ball, and someone else (likely juiced as well, but I digress) was trying to get them out.
Do Pete Rose’s numbers, and do his overall baseball accomplishments justify him being in the Hall? Yes, and yes. But he should still be excluded for threatening the whole enterprise.
*A request to no one in particular: Please, please, no rejoinders along the lines of “He only bet on his team” or some similar nonsense. Unless you want to argue that he only bet on his team to win the World Series. At the beginning of the year. Then maybe we can talk.
Justin,
I will admit that I made my list a year ago when Posada was coming off a superb year as opposed to an injury riddled one and that pick looks a lot worse now. Maybe I’ll put Mussina on the list instead of him. I don’t remember how closesly I looked at the eras, but I thought I picked the one they played the most in (and often it was only a year or 2) I may have misplaced Rickey. As for Rafy, I will admit to it being strictly a judgement thing in the vein of Pete Rose (blatantly lying in our face and then being proven to be a liar) as opposed to our suspicions of McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, Pudge, etc. Clearly I downgraded Palmeiro more than most PED users but I have suspicions of Bagwell too and may have kept him out just due to possibly incorrect assumptions.
what happened to all the comments being on one page?
DO NOT LIKE
That Wilco cover of “Thirteen” is pretty solid.
Another reason to vote for Dale Murphy, not mentioned, and often overlooked:
“Voting — Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.”
integrity and character are both commonly used AGAINST players, but hardly ever FOR a player. And if there was any player who defined integrity, sportsmanship and character, it was dale murphy, who was baseball’s ambassador
and frankly, no matter how widesprad PED’s were, McGwire doesnt deserve your vote. “integrity, sportsmanship and character”. you might give mark a pass on 1 of the 3, maybe 2 of the 3, but certainly not all 3
I can’t believe that Raines isn’t getting the 75% needed to make the hall in this site’s poll. Keep working on them, Poz!
Okay…I got curious and did a search…and found this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TswTenrEwwM
As long as one of the topics of this post was that some players don’t stay on the ballot long enough to really receive appropriate consideration, I thought I’d point out that it’s a travesty that Mattingly has stayed on for so long when Keith Hernandez (at least an equal player, if not superior) was off so quickly.
Hey there Joe. I’ve loved reading you throughout the years, and got familiar with you through Rob Neyer. That being said, I’ve seen you write two posts about Dawson’s OBP and why it should keep him out of the Hall of Fame yet you, at the same time, look for reasons to include him.
I’ll admit I’m a Dawson fan and admit as well that I am a big fan of OBP and am very disappointed with how his numbers in that category ended up. I had a similar reaction to Ryne Sandberg, who I thought was a great player and an easy first-ballot Hall of Famer, yet also had a bad OBP by the time that statistic hit the main stream. OBP is a very big part of the game, after all. However, if Dawson’s other categories are quite strong, if he is a leader and a person with integrity like his famous “blank check” for his MVP season, shouldn’t he still get in? I mean, it’s not like you have to pick and choose stats to find areas of the game that Dawson excelled at.
But, let’s pick and choose and play hypotheticals a second. Let’s say Dawson’s knees were healthy enough to edge out another full season… close enough where he was a few hits short of 3000 and had a bit more than 450 home runs. Would there be as much discussion?
On the other hand, other statistics besides OBP have become valuable such as defensive ability, VORP, WARP, etc. If OBP, though a useful stat, is in still some respects incomplete, can other stats be used to improve his claim?
I guess I am afraid that what will happen is that Dawson won’t get in after his fifteen years. Perhaps in those 15 years, a better statistic to measure offensive performance than OBP, such as an enhanced WARP or Win Shares, portrays his value better. Nevertheless, I’d hate to see an old Expo like him languishing before the Veteran’s Committee… though I guess at that point, at least he can keep Ron Santo company.
Hey Joe, I know you like to talk about milestone numbers (3,000 hits, 300 Wins, etc.) and how they help (or used to help) players gain “automatic” entry into the Hall. What do you think about a player going 40/40? Obviously, it’s a very rare accomplishment and it takes a special (or ‘roided up) player to do it, so do you think that would push a borderline player over the top? It’s still relatively early in his career, but I don’t think many people would consider Alfonso Soriano (and his .329 career OBP) a HOFer, so it probably wouldn’t help a guy like him (although if he had hit one more HR in ‘02 and was the only two-time 40/40 guy, that might make the discussion more interesting). But, if Vlad Guerrero had hit one more HR in 2002, would he be a slam-dunk choice instead of being a potentially borderline candidate (depending on how he finishes his career, of course)? Just wondering your thoughts on the 40/40 club and what it means to be a member of it. Thanks.
I voted for Lee Smith, Blyleven, John, Rickey, Trammell, and Raines. I posted my reasons in the comments for the last HOF vote. I have no major objections to Dawson or Murphy, and could live with Rice, although I’d rather have Dewey than Rice. Heck, even Baines gets some consideration from me. I’d like to vote for Orosco, but I’m not ready to vote for a career setup man/LOOGY, at least not until all the true relief aces get chosen (Joe, how could you?). And I’ll vote for McGwire someday, but not yet.
Worth mentioning, and I think it probably is something I first heard Vin Scully say, is to consider career length of catchers, catchers who move to other positions, and non-catchers who become catchers. Two of the finest catcher careers were had by Bob Boone (say what you like about his lousy offense, his defense and longevity were superb) who started as a third baseman but moved over since he didn’t hit well enough, and Mike Piazza, who was a first baseman until he was drafted, and again wasn’t projected to hit well enough to make the bigs. Why is this pertinent to HOF voting? Dale Murphy started as a catcher, which IIRC is why his career was shortened. If this observation is accurate, then I’d tend to give Murphy a bit of a waive of his career shortness issue. I just think Murphy was a better player than Dawson, and I guess the big reason why is that the synergy of Dawson’s speed was hamstrung since he was so infrequently on first base, ready to steal second.
There should be no debate–McGwire admitted to using steroids when he admitted using andro, because andro is a steroid. In my mind, the only questions that remain are 1) do we punish a player for doing what many (most?) of his peers were doing and 2) do we not punish a player because he was ahead of the curve, using a substance before it was banned?
[...] like Joe Posnanski, of whom I am a huge fan and usually agree — is that Dawson’s .323 on-base percentage is simply too low for him to be a Hall of Famer. I’ve also seen Ken Rosenthal argue that in the time they [...]
I just want to say as a fan of baseball. I would like to say that Mattingly was a better player off the field than on it. These days people need to see a leader off the field. He did a lot of good things for the kids off the field. Personally, I dislike the Yankees. I’ve always been a Red Sox fan. I grew up with Dwight Evans and Jim Rice. Professionalism is lacking in the last couple of decades.
Good Comments.
But, Jack Morris should be in.
That bulldog carried 3 teams
on his back to WS titles
(Tigers, Twins, Blue Jays).
What about Lance Parish
whose stats match up pretty good
with Gary Carter’s!!??
What about Trammel and Lou Whitaker
getting in as one of the best double
play combinations in MLB history
with some of the best longevity??!!