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	<title>Comments on: Ten good years</title>
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		<title>By: G Hawk</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/02/ten-good-years/#comment-74687</link>
		<dc:creator>G Hawk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Sep 2009 09:53:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/02/ten-good-years/#comment-74687</guid>
		<description>2B: It&#039;s laughable to keep denigrating Hornsby because he was an ornery cuss. So were Bonds, Cobb, Ted Williams, even Jackie Robinson.

I would LOVE to see a &quot;10 best years&quot; comparison between Joe Morgan and the Rajah. I do know that for their careers, here were their OPS+ numbers:
Morgan 132
Hornsby 175

Uh, yeah. Give me the guy who hits better than Mickey Mantle or Albert Pujols.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>2B: It&#8217;s laughable to keep denigrating Hornsby because he was an ornery cuss. So were Bonds, Cobb, Ted Williams, even Jackie Robinson.</p>
<p>I would LOVE to see a &#8220;10 best years&#8221; comparison between Joe Morgan and the Rajah. I do know that for their careers, here were their OPS+ numbers:<br />
Morgan 132<br />
Hornsby 175</p>
<p>Uh, yeah. Give me the guy who hits better than Mickey Mantle or Albert Pujols.</p>
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		<title>By: Manuel in Caracas</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/02/ten-good-years/#comment-47693</link>
		<dc:creator>Manuel in Caracas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 23:35:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/02/ten-good-years/#comment-47693</guid>
		<description>Frank Howard in his best ten years? 

1969  178 OPS+ 48 Hrs
1970  170 OPS+ 44 Hrs
1968  170 OPS+ 44 Hrs
1967  153 OPS+ 36 Hrs
1962  149 OPS+ 31 Hrs
1963  147 OPS+ 28 Hrs
1971  144 OPS+ 26 Hrs
1965  138 OPS+ 21 Hrs
1966  127 OPS+ 18 Hrs
1961  119 OPS+ 15 Hrs

What a terrific hitter with those numers in the core of the worst era for hitters and playing in Dodger Stadium and RFK Stadium.
Hondo deser</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frank Howard in his best ten years? </p>
<p>1969  178 OPS+ 48 Hrs<br />
1970  170 OPS+ 44 Hrs<br />
1968  170 OPS+ 44 Hrs<br />
1967  153 OPS+ 36 Hrs<br />
1962  149 OPS+ 31 Hrs<br />
1963  147 OPS+ 28 Hrs<br />
1971  144 OPS+ 26 Hrs<br />
1965  138 OPS+ 21 Hrs<br />
1966  127 OPS+ 18 Hrs<br />
1961  119 OPS+ 15 Hrs</p>
<p>What a terrific hitter with those numers in the core of the worst era for hitters and playing in Dodger Stadium and RFK Stadium.<br />
Hondo deser</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/02/ten-good-years/#comment-47447</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 19:04:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/02/ten-good-years/#comment-47447</guid>
		<description>Trammell will not be elected to the Hall of Fame for the same reason he didn&#039;t win those MVP awards or receive more accolades during his career: he played in Detroit and wasn&#039;t flashy.  He kept his head down, never mouthed off and did what he could to help his team win.  If the situation called for a bloop single, he&#039;d hit a bloop single.  If it called for a double, he&#039;d hit a double.  He had better power than his numbers reflect because he didn&#039;t swing for the fences all the time. Still, if he had put those numbers up in pinstripes, he&#039;d be in by now.  Those pinstripes are really the only thing keeping Mattingly on the ballot, and, honestly, if Jim Rice had played for the Toronto Blue Jays, would we be having this annual discussion?  I doubt it.  There are certain teams and towns that lend their players a better chance at the Hall than others.  If Bert Blyleven was a Cub or a Dodger or even a Cardinal, he would have been in on his first or second ballot.  In the end, the Hall is the ultimate popularity contest and unfortunately for Trammell, he was always second-best to someone else on the national stage, whether that was Ripken or Ozzie or Jorge Bell, or whoever, and it remains so.  Hell, even among Detroit fans it&#039;s tough to separate Trammell from his conjoined twin Lou Whitaker.  If he had been loud or angry or funny or tried to make himself larger than the game, more people would have noticed how impressive he actually was.  But he wasn&#039;t those things.  He was a quietly great ballplayer turned sacrificial managerial lamb and he did it all with pluck and aplomb.  I hope for his sake the Cubs can pull it together this year and get him another ring, because he&#039;s not making the Hall.  Shame.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Trammell will not be elected to the Hall of Fame for the same reason he didn&#8217;t win those MVP awards or receive more accolades during his career: he played in Detroit and wasn&#8217;t flashy.  He kept his head down, never mouthed off and did what he could to help his team win.  If the situation called for a bloop single, he&#8217;d hit a bloop single.  If it called for a double, he&#8217;d hit a double.  He had better power than his numbers reflect because he didn&#8217;t swing for the fences all the time. Still, if he had put those numbers up in pinstripes, he&#8217;d be in by now.  Those pinstripes are really the only thing keeping Mattingly on the ballot, and, honestly, if Jim Rice had played for the Toronto Blue Jays, would we be having this annual discussion?  I doubt it.  There are certain teams and towns that lend their players a better chance at the Hall than others.  If Bert Blyleven was a Cub or a Dodger or even a Cardinal, he would have been in on his first or second ballot.  In the end, the Hall is the ultimate popularity contest and unfortunately for Trammell, he was always second-best to someone else on the national stage, whether that was Ripken or Ozzie or Jorge Bell, or whoever, and it remains so.  Hell, even among Detroit fans it&#8217;s tough to separate Trammell from his conjoined twin Lou Whitaker.  If he had been loud or angry or funny or tried to make himself larger than the game, more people would have noticed how impressive he actually was.  But he wasn&#8217;t those things.  He was a quietly great ballplayer turned sacrificial managerial lamb and he did it all with pluck and aplomb.  I hope for his sake the Cubs can pull it together this year and get him another ring, because he&#8217;s not making the Hall.  Shame.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff K.</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/02/ten-good-years/#comment-47360</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff K.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 06:19:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/02/ten-good-years/#comment-47360</guid>
		<description>Oops, as for &quot;making wins more important&quot;, no.  Wins are quite simply colored by too many other factors to attribute them to the pitcher.  We can tell how well he pitched by looking at any number of other things that are colored much less or not at all.  The very slight impact of pitching to the score can&#039;t overcome that in the slightest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops, as for &#8220;making wins more important&#8221;, no.  Wins are quite simply colored by too many other factors to attribute them to the pitcher.  We can tell how well he pitched by looking at any number of other things that are colored much less or not at all.  The very slight impact of pitching to the score can&#8217;t overcome that in the slightest.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff K.</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/02/ten-good-years/#comment-47359</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff K.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 06:14:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/02/ten-good-years/#comment-47359</guid>
		<description>&quot;But pitchers, like Morris and Carlton, who prided themselves on going 9 innings, were going to see that situation more than other pitchers, certainly more than todayâ€™s 100 pitch count pitchers.&quot;

For a non basesball fan, you make a good point.  That that point has already been made and researched and discussed is immaterial to my being impressed that you came up with it on your own.  To the point itself: it is a known factor. Speaking very generically, it&#039;s easier to put up better rate stats (something like ERA, or even Winning Percentage, that does not inherently denote the amount of what it&#039;s measuring, as opposed to a counting stat like homers, which does not denote the rate) when one can go all out at every opportunity.  But what you&#039;re describing is known as &quot;pitching to the score&quot;, and it has been researched.  And in fact, Baseball Prospectus did so specifically for Jack Morris, here: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1815 .  Conclusion? Not a repeatable skill, a necessity (by dogma, though reasoned dogma and accepted by me) to say that it&#039;s done in real life or is able to be done. 

Additionally, there is the counterbalance that in times of high run scoring, where it is easier to put up a high ERA+ (because it&#039;s easier to deviate from a large number than a really small one), you *must* bear down against all hitters as they can all hurt you.  The amount of IP where you&#039;ve got the kind of lead that you can just fling BP fastballs over the middle are so small that they&#039;re of tiny effect on the overall ERA+.  

I don&#039;t mean to imply that this is not a valid point. It is.  It&#039;s been (so far) researched to the somewhat weak determination that it is a valid, yet small, impact on ERA+ overall and not a repeatable skill which we should credit to the pitcher.  This would mean that its application for someone like Morris and the judging of his career is not advisable.  Now you&#039;re talking about even a subset of pitching to the score, pitching to the score in late innings.  You can make a really small adjustment to the career ERA+ totals for guys who threw a lot of CGs relative to their leagues, but it&#039;d be less than a full point total, so there&#039;s little practical effect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But pitchers, like Morris and Carlton, who prided themselves on going 9 innings, were going to see that situation more than other pitchers, certainly more than todayâ€™s 100 pitch count pitchers.&#8221;</p>
<p>For a non basesball fan, you make a good point.  That that point has already been made and researched and discussed is immaterial to my being impressed that you came up with it on your own.  To the point itself: it is a known factor. Speaking very generically, it&#8217;s easier to put up better rate stats (something like ERA, or even Winning Percentage, that does not inherently denote the amount of what it&#8217;s measuring, as opposed to a counting stat like homers, which does not denote the rate) when one can go all out at every opportunity.  But what you&#8217;re describing is known as &#8220;pitching to the score&#8221;, and it has been researched.  And in fact, Baseball Prospectus did so specifically for Jack Morris, here: <a href="http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1815" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1815</a> .  Conclusion? Not a repeatable skill, a necessity (by dogma, though reasoned dogma and accepted by me) to say that it&#8217;s done in real life or is able to be done. </p>
<p>Additionally, there is the counterbalance that in times of high run scoring, where it is easier to put up a high ERA+ (because it&#8217;s easier to deviate from a large number than a really small one), you *must* bear down against all hitters as they can all hurt you.  The amount of IP where you&#8217;ve got the kind of lead that you can just fling BP fastballs over the middle are so small that they&#8217;re of tiny effect on the overall ERA+.  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t mean to imply that this is not a valid point. It is.  It&#8217;s been (so far) researched to the somewhat weak determination that it is a valid, yet small, impact on ERA+ overall and not a repeatable skill which we should credit to the pitcher.  This would mean that its application for someone like Morris and the judging of his career is not advisable.  Now you&#8217;re talking about even a subset of pitching to the score, pitching to the score in late innings.  You can make a really small adjustment to the career ERA+ totals for guys who threw a lot of CGs relative to their leagues, but it&#8217;d be less than a full point total, so there&#8217;s little practical effect.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris in Dallas</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/02/ten-good-years/#comment-47259</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris in Dallas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 18:54:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/02/ten-good-years/#comment-47259</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m going to be honest.  If I never read another word about Jim Rice, it will be too soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m going to be honest.  If I never read another word about Jim Rice, it will be too soon.</p>
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		<title>By: KickinFamily</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/02/ten-good-years/#comment-47241</link>
		<dc:creator>KickinFamily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 17:25:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/02/ten-good-years/#comment-47241</guid>
		<description>One thing that is a huge difference between Raines and McGwire when it comes to PEDs:  Raines flat out came out and said, my bad, I need help and kicked it. That, to me, earns a lot of points. And he had a solid career after that. It&#039;s no surprise his worse season came while in the middle of the addiction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing that is a huge difference between Raines and McGwire when it comes to PEDs:  Raines flat out came out and said, my bad, I need help and kicked it. That, to me, earns a lot of points. And he had a solid career after that. It&#8217;s no surprise his worse season came while in the middle of the addiction.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron Zucker</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/02/ten-good-years/#comment-47225</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Zucker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 16:11:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/02/ten-good-years/#comment-47225</guid>
		<description>OK, Joe. I&#039;m REALLY not a baseball fan. It&#039;s a failing in me, I&#039;m sure, but, though I grew up in Philly in the 70&#039;s and watched those teams, I just never took to baseball as a wider sport than watching the Phils. So maybe this is an ignorant question. But...

You frequently point out that wins don&#039;t mean that much for a pitcher, and I&#039;m down with that. But when you combine wins with complete games, it seems to me that it could end up screwing up ERA+, a stat you do seem to like, for obvious reasons. Let me explain.

If you&#039;re ahead (or even behind in the AL, where substitutions for hitting don&#039;t matter) in a 1 run game in the 7th inning, you throw your best stuff that you have at that moment. You need the outs. But if you&#039;re ahead by 4 or 5 with nobody on, as I understand it, you throw strikes. You need the outs.*

* Imitating you with the asterisk. I still remember, even as a non-fan, when the Giants met the Angels in the Series, and there was &quot;K-Rod&quot; on the mound against Barry Bonds, who had hit everything into the next time zone all season. The Angels were up by 2, so Rodriguez was throwing fastballs. To Barry Bonds. The expected happened, and Rodriguez had my favorite quote. &quot;I just wanted to see how far he could hit a ball...&quot;

But, from a baseball perspective, he was right to do it. You have a two run lead. Don&#039;t let him get on base easily. Throw your best stuff. If he hits it, he hits it. Giving up a towering homer made as much sense to me as giving him first base, and Rodriguez wasn&#039;t getting him out without his fastball. Now, back to my point...

This kind of pitching gives up hits, and maybe a run or two. But you can afford to give up a run or two. As we all know now (hell, even *I&#039;ve* read &quot;Moneyball&quot; and the critics of the book), it&#039;s the walks that correlate with the 4 or 5 run inning. So don&#039;t give those up, and stay ahead.

But pitchers, like Morris and Carlton, who prided themselves on going 9 innings, were going to see that situation more than other pitchers, certainly more than today&#039;s 100 pitch count pitchers. What effect did this have on their ERA&#039;s? Doesn&#039;t this make wins a more important stat, since they pitched differently in some of those wins, at least in the late innings, than they did in their losses?

Just a question. Baseball is such a stat game that I have little doubt somebody has thought about this. THANKS!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, Joe. I&#8217;m REALLY not a baseball fan. It&#8217;s a failing in me, I&#8217;m sure, but, though I grew up in Philly in the 70&#8217;s and watched those teams, I just never took to baseball as a wider sport than watching the Phils. So maybe this is an ignorant question. But&#8230;</p>
<p>You frequently point out that wins don&#8217;t mean that much for a pitcher, and I&#8217;m down with that. But when you combine wins with complete games, it seems to me that it could end up screwing up ERA+, a stat you do seem to like, for obvious reasons. Let me explain.</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re ahead (or even behind in the AL, where substitutions for hitting don&#8217;t matter) in a 1 run game in the 7th inning, you throw your best stuff that you have at that moment. You need the outs. But if you&#8217;re ahead by 4 or 5 with nobody on, as I understand it, you throw strikes. You need the outs.*</p>
<p>* Imitating you with the asterisk. I still remember, even as a non-fan, when the Giants met the Angels in the Series, and there was &#8220;K-Rod&#8221; on the mound against Barry Bonds, who had hit everything into the next time zone all season. The Angels were up by 2, so Rodriguez was throwing fastballs. To Barry Bonds. The expected happened, and Rodriguez had my favorite quote. &#8220;I just wanted to see how far he could hit a ball&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>But, from a baseball perspective, he was right to do it. You have a two run lead. Don&#8217;t let him get on base easily. Throw your best stuff. If he hits it, he hits it. Giving up a towering homer made as much sense to me as giving him first base, and Rodriguez wasn&#8217;t getting him out without his fastball. Now, back to my point&#8230;</p>
<p>This kind of pitching gives up hits, and maybe a run or two. But you can afford to give up a run or two. As we all know now (hell, even *I&#8217;ve* read &#8220;Moneyball&#8221; and the critics of the book), it&#8217;s the walks that correlate with the 4 or 5 run inning. So don&#8217;t give those up, and stay ahead.</p>
<p>But pitchers, like Morris and Carlton, who prided themselves on going 9 innings, were going to see that situation more than other pitchers, certainly more than today&#8217;s 100 pitch count pitchers. What effect did this have on their ERA&#8217;s? Doesn&#8217;t this make wins a more important stat, since they pitched differently in some of those wins, at least in the late innings, than they did in their losses?</p>
<p>Just a question. Baseball is such a stat game that I have little doubt somebody has thought about this. THANKS!</p>
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		<title>By: Browngoat</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/02/ten-good-years/#comment-47205</link>
		<dc:creator>Browngoat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 14:31:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/02/ten-good-years/#comment-47205</guid>
		<description>FYI, I voted for Rickey, Bert, Alan, and Timmy.  I might vote for Lee Smith and McGwire in the future...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FYI, I voted for Rickey, Bert, Alan, and Timmy.  I might vote for Lee Smith and McGwire in the future&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Browngoat</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/02/ten-good-years/#comment-47201</link>
		<dc:creator>Browngoat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 14:17:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/01/02/ten-good-years/#comment-47201</guid>
		<description>I just voted on the Hall of Fame and I find it amazing that Rickey only got 96% of the vote.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just voted on the Hall of Fame and I find it amazing that Rickey only got 96% of the vote.</p>
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