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	<title>Comments on: One more MVP thought &#8230;</title>
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		<title>By: Euro</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/24/one-more-mvp-thought/#comment-57097</link>
		<dc:creator>Euro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 03:10:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/24/one-more-mvp-thought/#comment-57097</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Euro...&lt;/strong&gt;

It is earned through several characteristics and learning from Forex trading. Move on and make the Forex market. This is where this market comes into These traits. When you first start out for this market, youâ€™ re going to be getting the fascinating ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Euro&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>It is earned through several characteristics and learning from Forex trading. Move on and make the Forex market. This is where this market comes into These traits. When you first start out for this market, youâ€™ re going to be getting the fascinating &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: X</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/24/one-more-mvp-thought/#comment-42431</link>
		<dc:creator>X</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 20:26:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/24/one-more-mvp-thought/#comment-42431</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve read all the stories and the follow up.  The bottom line is that he DID say the following:

â€œI see it this way: Someone who doesnâ€™t take his team to the playoffs doesnâ€™t deserve to win the MVPâ€œ

He never disputed the translation.  His regrets were over the way he was portrayed.  Hey, guys say things all the time that &quot;come out wrong&quot; or get &quot;misinterpreted.&quot;  I love Albert, I just said I didn&#039;t think he should win.  An MVP helps his team win games.  Howard&#039;s team won more games both years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve read all the stories and the follow up.  The bottom line is that he DID say the following:</p>
<p>â€œI see it this way: Someone who doesnâ€™t take his team to the playoffs doesnâ€™t deserve to win the MVPâ€œ</p>
<p>He never disputed the translation.  His regrets were over the way he was portrayed.  Hey, guys say things all the time that &#8220;come out wrong&#8221; or get &#8220;misinterpreted.&#8221;  I love Albert, I just said I didn&#8217;t think he should win.  An MVP helps his team win games.  Howard&#8217;s team won more games both years.</p>
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		<title>By: Brent</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/24/one-more-mvp-thought/#comment-42313</link>
		<dc:creator>Brent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 14:55:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/24/one-more-mvp-thought/#comment-42313</guid>
		<description>X:

Pujols was interviewed in Spanish 2 years ago when that statement was allegedly uttered and the translation to English was not a particularly good one.  He stated later that he did not actually dispute that Howard should win that year, his comments just got &quot;lost in translation&quot;.  None of the Spanish language stories about the interview even mentioned the quote that the English language newspapers made such a big deal about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>X:</p>
<p>Pujols was interviewed in Spanish 2 years ago when that statement was allegedly uttered and the translation to English was not a particularly good one.  He stated later that he did not actually dispute that Howard should win that year, his comments just got &#8220;lost in translation&#8221;.  None of the Spanish language stories about the interview even mentioned the quote that the English language newspapers made such a big deal about.</p>
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		<title>By: X</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/24/one-more-mvp-thought/#comment-42275</link>
		<dc:creator>X</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 07:46:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/24/one-more-mvp-thought/#comment-42275</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t think Pujols should win this year b/c he said two years ago that the MVP should come from a team that has one.  But I also thought those comments were funny back then since STL won 83 games, but Howard was on the non-winning team that won two more games (85).  So both years, Howard was on a better team.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t think Pujols should win this year b/c he said two years ago that the MVP should come from a team that has one.  But I also thought those comments were funny back then since STL won 83 games, but Howard was on the non-winning team that won two more games (85).  So both years, Howard was on a better team.</p>
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		<title>By: dusty</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/24/one-more-mvp-thought/#comment-42267</link>
		<dc:creator>dusty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 06:53:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/24/one-more-mvp-thought/#comment-42267</guid>
		<description>&quot; You canâ€™t have a lot of fun arguing with a points system.&quot;

*cough*BCS&cough;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221; You canâ€™t have a lot of fun arguing with a points system.&#8221;</p>
<p>*cough*BCS&cough;</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Aronson</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/24/one-more-mvp-thought/#comment-42219</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Aronson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 00:05:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/24/one-more-mvp-thought/#comment-42219</guid>
		<description>We&#039;ve already seen that it takes an insanely great season for a pitcher to win MVP.  The argument there has been, at least since they created it, is that pitchers can win the Cy Young Award, and thus don&#039;t deserve a shot at the MVP.

But if that line of reasoning is valid, then the RBI leader doesn&#039;t automatically deserve the MVP either, because he&#039;s the RBI leader.  Same for homers and batting title.  We have plenty of precedent for non-playoff bound guys to win MVP, so it&#039;s not as though we&#039;re breaking new ground.  So MVP is not an award you can just give to a league leader in any of the triple crown stats if he happens to make the playoffs.  Hell, since 100% of all RBI come because somebody else scored a run, why aren&#039;t runs considered as important?  Come on, you know who I&#039;m talking to.  

So what defines value?  Some of it does come from context.  Howard did a difficult job (driving in runs and hitting homers) very well.  But he did it in context of having superb hitters in front of him, giving him lots of opportunities to drive in runs, and with some mighty fine hitters behind him, giving him more chances to hit.  Albert Pujols hit better than Howard with men on base, even though he had weaker hitters before him and after him.  Pujols leading the league in intentional walks did not come about because the guys protecting him were having career years.

It&#039;s not the Most Valuable Slugger, it&#039;s the Most Valuable Player.  I don&#039;t care who you are, if you are defining Valuable without considering batting average, or (better) on base percentage and slugging percentage, and if you&#039;re ignoring defense and baserunning, then you&#039;re not really considering Valuable Player.  You&#039;re locked into MVS. 

Lets look at Howard a different way.  Suppose he is en fuego in April through June, the Phillies run out to a big double digit game lead, and then Howard tanks the last couple of months and the Phillies limp home, barely crossing the finish line in first place.  He winds up with identical season stats.  Would Howard deserve the MVP?  Hell no.  But the games in April count just as much.   The same thing often happens with Oscars, where surprisingly good movies that came out earlier in the year tend not to get the rewards they deserve because everybody&#039;s enamored of the hot flavor of the month of December, when all the Oscar consideration movies tend to come out.

Pujols was hot every month of the year.  Some of those months the Cards were close to a playoff spot.  Every month Pujols was valuable by any definition of value.  Pujols was valuable when he walked because he&#039;s a good base runner.  Pujols was valuable when he fielded.  He wins every tie breaker except for playoff making.

A few years back, we were having a big Strat-O-Matic draft including the break up of a really good team.  The top three players, in everybody&#039;s opinion, were Eddie Murray, Dave Winfield, and Dave Stieb.  I went for Stieb number one.  Why?  Stieb was (at the time) the best pitcher in the American League, good for at least 250 innings per year.  He influenced 750 outs plus another 250 plus non-outs, or 1,000 plate appearances.  Murray or Winfleid would influence around 700 PA, plus maybe an extra 50 plays based on speed an defense.  They were all great players.  But 1,000 plays versus 750 plays meant that the pitcher 1/3 more plays than either hitter.

If I were picking the MVP purely scientifically this year, my pick is Johan Santana.  No, I&#039;m not a Mets fan.  But Santana kept his team in the running for the playoffs on a team that was extremely close to the playoffs and for a team that was hammered in pitching depth.  Santana&#039;s innings meant that guys who belonged in AAA leagues didn&#039;t have to throw as many innings.  He made the entire pitching staff better, more so than any other pitcher in the league, and arguably more than any other pitcher in baseball.  I would only have picked him third for Cy Young.  Lincecum pitched better, but he did so for a team that faced no pressure and had a lot of good pitchers; the Giants&#039; problem was offense.  So even though Lincecum pitched better, he didn&#039;t mean as much to the Giants.

But because of the Ryan Howard mentality, that it&#039;s got to be a playoff slugger, Santana got no consideration at all.

I&#039;m glad Pujols won.  I *think* he was more valuable than Santana, although it&#039;s close.  Pujols&#039; season was better on the raw numbers.  But it&#039;s really time we started a movement towards allowing pitchers to win MVP again, and to consider that a guy who is worth 30 wins to a team that wins 85 is more valuable than a guy worth only 20 wins to a team that wins 90.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We&#8217;ve already seen that it takes an insanely great season for a pitcher to win MVP.  The argument there has been, at least since they created it, is that pitchers can win the Cy Young Award, and thus don&#8217;t deserve a shot at the MVP.</p>
<p>But if that line of reasoning is valid, then the RBI leader doesn&#8217;t automatically deserve the MVP either, because he&#8217;s the RBI leader.  Same for homers and batting title.  We have plenty of precedent for non-playoff bound guys to win MVP, so it&#8217;s not as though we&#8217;re breaking new ground.  So MVP is not an award you can just give to a league leader in any of the triple crown stats if he happens to make the playoffs.  Hell, since 100% of all RBI come because somebody else scored a run, why aren&#8217;t runs considered as important?  Come on, you know who I&#8217;m talking to.  </p>
<p>So what defines value?  Some of it does come from context.  Howard did a difficult job (driving in runs and hitting homers) very well.  But he did it in context of having superb hitters in front of him, giving him lots of opportunities to drive in runs, and with some mighty fine hitters behind him, giving him more chances to hit.  Albert Pujols hit better than Howard with men on base, even though he had weaker hitters before him and after him.  Pujols leading the league in intentional walks did not come about because the guys protecting him were having career years.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not the Most Valuable Slugger, it&#8217;s the Most Valuable Player.  I don&#8217;t care who you are, if you are defining Valuable without considering batting average, or (better) on base percentage and slugging percentage, and if you&#8217;re ignoring defense and baserunning, then you&#8217;re not really considering Valuable Player.  You&#8217;re locked into MVS. </p>
<p>Lets look at Howard a different way.  Suppose he is en fuego in April through June, the Phillies run out to a big double digit game lead, and then Howard tanks the last couple of months and the Phillies limp home, barely crossing the finish line in first place.  He winds up with identical season stats.  Would Howard deserve the MVP?  Hell no.  But the games in April count just as much.   The same thing often happens with Oscars, where surprisingly good movies that came out earlier in the year tend not to get the rewards they deserve because everybody&#8217;s enamored of the hot flavor of the month of December, when all the Oscar consideration movies tend to come out.</p>
<p>Pujols was hot every month of the year.  Some of those months the Cards were close to a playoff spot.  Every month Pujols was valuable by any definition of value.  Pujols was valuable when he walked because he&#8217;s a good base runner.  Pujols was valuable when he fielded.  He wins every tie breaker except for playoff making.</p>
<p>A few years back, we were having a big Strat-O-Matic draft including the break up of a really good team.  The top three players, in everybody&#8217;s opinion, were Eddie Murray, Dave Winfield, and Dave Stieb.  I went for Stieb number one.  Why?  Stieb was (at the time) the best pitcher in the American League, good for at least 250 innings per year.  He influenced 750 outs plus another 250 plus non-outs, or 1,000 plate appearances.  Murray or Winfleid would influence around 700 PA, plus maybe an extra 50 plays based on speed an defense.  They were all great players.  But 1,000 plays versus 750 plays meant that the pitcher 1/3 more plays than either hitter.</p>
<p>If I were picking the MVP purely scientifically this year, my pick is Johan Santana.  No, I&#8217;m not a Mets fan.  But Santana kept his team in the running for the playoffs on a team that was extremely close to the playoffs and for a team that was hammered in pitching depth.  Santana&#8217;s innings meant that guys who belonged in AAA leagues didn&#8217;t have to throw as many innings.  He made the entire pitching staff better, more so than any other pitcher in the league, and arguably more than any other pitcher in baseball.  I would only have picked him third for Cy Young.  Lincecum pitched better, but he did so for a team that faced no pressure and had a lot of good pitchers; the Giants&#8217; problem was offense.  So even though Lincecum pitched better, he didn&#8217;t mean as much to the Giants.</p>
<p>But because of the Ryan Howard mentality, that it&#8217;s got to be a playoff slugger, Santana got no consideration at all.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad Pujols won.  I *think* he was more valuable than Santana, although it&#8217;s close.  Pujols&#8217; season was better on the raw numbers.  But it&#8217;s really time we started a movement towards allowing pitchers to win MVP again, and to consider that a guy who is worth 30 wins to a team that wins 85 is more valuable than a guy worth only 20 wins to a team that wins 90.</p>
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		<title>By: Bradley</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/24/one-more-mvp-thought/#comment-42156</link>
		<dc:creator>Bradley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:36:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/24/one-more-mvp-thought/#comment-42156</guid>
		<description>What you can never forget is that chicks dig the long ball.  That is the only reasoning behind the Howard mvp arguement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What you can never forget is that chicks dig the long ball.  That is the only reasoning behind the Howard mvp arguement.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/24/one-more-mvp-thought/#comment-42133</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:51:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/24/one-more-mvp-thought/#comment-42133</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t even tell if Mike&#039;s being facetious. 

No, the Dodgers may not have won the division without Manny (they were in the race - it was a terrible division, after all), but they also probably wouldn&#039;t have won without Ethier, Kemp, Lowe, Billingsley, blah blah blah...

The whole &quot;would they have won without this guy&quot; argument falls apart even more when he touts K-Rod. The Angels ran away with the division. It was no contest. If they&#039;d had Arrendondo closing all year, they still would have won. 

If they&#039;d replaced K-Rod with Todd Jones, based on their save percentages in 2008, the Angels still would have won 97 games, and Jones would be the single-season record holder with three fewer saves. As a reminder, Todd Jones got pummeled into retirement in 2008. It&#039;s an imperfect comparison because not all save opps are created equal, but K-Rod wasn&#039;t exactly known for tough save assignments this year. He was your standard three-out closer.

K-Rod got 62 saves because his team did well enough in the eight innings before he entered the game to give him a record-shattering number of chances. It&#039;s similar to having a rule amendment that would allow Aubrey Huff - and ONLY Aubrey Huff - to bat twice every time through the O&#039;s lineup and then giving him the MVP because he managed 60 HR, 200 RBI and 350 hits while conveniently forgetting that he accumulated those stats in about 1,200 at-bats.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t even tell if Mike&#8217;s being facetious. </p>
<p>No, the Dodgers may not have won the division without Manny (they were in the race &#8211; it was a terrible division, after all), but they also probably wouldn&#8217;t have won without Ethier, Kemp, Lowe, Billingsley, blah blah blah&#8230;</p>
<p>The whole &#8220;would they have won without this guy&#8221; argument falls apart even more when he touts K-Rod. The Angels ran away with the division. It was no contest. If they&#8217;d had Arrendondo closing all year, they still would have won. </p>
<p>If they&#8217;d replaced K-Rod with Todd Jones, based on their save percentages in 2008, the Angels still would have won 97 games, and Jones would be the single-season record holder with three fewer saves. As a reminder, Todd Jones got pummeled into retirement in 2008. It&#8217;s an imperfect comparison because not all save opps are created equal, but K-Rod wasn&#8217;t exactly known for tough save assignments this year. He was your standard three-out closer.</p>
<p>K-Rod got 62 saves because his team did well enough in the eight innings before he entered the game to give him a record-shattering number of chances. It&#8217;s similar to having a rule amendment that would allow Aubrey Huff &#8211; and ONLY Aubrey Huff &#8211; to bat twice every time through the O&#8217;s lineup and then giving him the MVP because he managed 60 HR, 200 RBI and 350 hits while conveniently forgetting that he accumulated those stats in about 1,200 at-bats.</p>
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		<title>By: Shoeless_Mike</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/24/one-more-mvp-thought/#comment-42128</link>
		<dc:creator>Shoeless_Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:33:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/24/one-more-mvp-thought/#comment-42128</guid>
		<description>I am pretty sure Mike meant A-ROD, not K-ROD. Touting K-Rod as an MVP is like saying some guy who played in only 33% of his team&#039;s games deserves the MVP!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am pretty sure Mike meant A-ROD, not K-ROD. Touting K-Rod as an MVP is like saying some guy who played in only 33% of his team&#8217;s games deserves the MVP!</p>
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		<title>By: AK</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/24/one-more-mvp-thought/#comment-42127</link>
		<dc:creator>AK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:27:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/24/one-more-mvp-thought/#comment-42127</guid>
		<description>...and by the way, in response to MIKE:  Really?  Manny should have been MVP?  Pedroia was a horrible choice because of what someone else did in an entirely different season??  Even worse, you think K-Rod deserved it instead???  How many question marks can I use at the ends of my questions????


Four.  The answer is four.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;and by the way, in response to MIKE:  Really?  Manny should have been MVP?  Pedroia was a horrible choice because of what someone else did in an entirely different season??  Even worse, you think K-Rod deserved it instead???  How many question marks can I use at the ends of my questions????</p>
<p>Four.  The answer is four.</p>
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