Your points about Marichal are a good complement to mine. Worthiness (earned) and reputation (bestowed) are not always in sync. . . .

Well, unfortunately, I cannot say I have ever lived in Toledo (although I did once spend two days in Maumee — does that count for anything?).

As to why Marichal was, at the time, considered so much more highly than Mussina, in his time, is an interesting question. I had a conversation with my best baseball buddy on that topic earlier today; one of my suggestions was that there were fewer teams and other sports, so (at least relatively) he seemed more dominating.

Plus, he did do several things that attracted a lot of attention: his first game (a 1-hit, 12-K shutout), the 16-inning game with Spahn, hitting John Rosbero over the head with a bat, etc. But as far as their numbers go, their reputations should be pretty much the same — so why aren’t they?

‘Tis a puzzlement.

I notice Wallace Matthews isn’t sure he’d vote for Mussina. Me, too, I’m not sure. I’m crusading for Blyleven first.

Why was Marichal considered a mortal lock? Marichal’s peak was higher than Mussina’s. ERA+ seasons of 169, 168, 167, whereas Mussina’s three highest are 163, 157, 145. It’s not that easy to cite particular games, but Marichal engaged in a few spectacular duels.

Marichal was superb for eight years, through age 31, and then his last five seasons, after injury, were below league average. Mussina was very very good (in a dh league) for a dozen years, and has allowed more hits than innings pitched for the last five.

Their careers may be equivalent, but Marichal’s games or years of brilliance made a bigger impression on us. Mussina may be just as worthy.

Back on topic: I posted this in the first Moose thread; since this thread is more current, let me repeat it:

Moose is actually 7th in all-time AL wins (Johnson, Clemens, Plank, Wynn, Grove, Ruffing, in order ahead of him).

And, Joe, I am surprised you didn’t do this while you were researching at BB-Ref: if you neutralize their stats, you get this:

ERA
Marichal 3.22
Mussina 3.25

WHIP
Marichal 1.176
Mussina 1.111

W-L/Pct
Marichal 230-148/.607
Mussina 247-161/.605

There really isn’t a dime’s worth of difference between them statistically — so why was Marichal considered a mortal lock for the HoF when he retired, and we are all here debating whether Mussina should even be in the conversation?

As for his crankiness, I think Kyle Litke correctly described it as a lack of patience with stupid questions (I know how he feels). Wallace Matthews makes a similar point in today’s Newsday:

http://tinyurl.com/5a5h7v

He gets my vote (if I had one).

As for Santo, while I agree he deserves HOF entry, he does not make my top five all time best at third base. He’s not ahead of Schmidt, Brett, Boggs. If ARod is a third baseman, he’s not ahead of him. Wright seems likely to pass him. And that’s not looking at the old timers, for whom third base tends to be an under represented position (which is part of why I’d pick Santo). But if you’re selecting a pitching staff from just HOFers, Blyleven deserves some consideration for about the third or fourth team. IP. Eight of his ten most comparables are in the HOF including the top three, and a ninth, Tommy John, has the most wins of any pitcher who won’t get into the HOF. Only four of Santo’s most comparables are in the HOF, including none of the top three (Dale Murphy, Ken Boyer, Gary Gaetti). At best, Santo would be an average HOF batter per baseball-reference.com; his highest career ranking is in 22nd GIDP, hardly a positive. Blyleven is top ten all time in Ks and Shutouts, and whether you like or dislike the proliferation of strikeouts, you have to admit that for pitchers, shutouts are pretty damned important. Yes, Santo hit in a bad time for hitters, but most of Blyleven’s career was facing the DH, so it sort of evens out. Santo not being in the HOF is a mistake. Blyleven is a travesty.

Kevin S., there is an explanation for Marichal’s absence from Cy Young lists. Consider that Marichal began pitching outstanding seasons in 1962.

From 1962-1966, there was only one Cy Young Award (for both leagues), cutting in half the chance that a pitcher would be recognized.

From 1962-1970, the 20 voters cast first-place votes only. That made it unlikely that anyone would finish 4th, 5th, 6th, etc.

During that time, there were great seasons by Koufax, Gibson, Drysdale, Seaver, and Dean Chance’s 1964. In 1963, 1965, and 1966, Koufax got all 20 votes. In 1968, Gibson got all 20 NL votes. In 1969, Seaver got 23 of 24 NL votes.

Marichal was to Koufax/Gibson/Seaver/Carlton as Smoltz has been to Pedro/Clemens/Maddux/Johnson. Well, a more overpowering Smoltz on one of Marichal’s good days. After age 33, Marichal’s injuries put an end to his run (in that respect, he was like Pedro).