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	<title>Comments on: Reliever Ratings 2008</title>
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	<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/06/reliever-ratings-2008/</link>
	<description>A Rough Draft Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Ranking The AL Closers; JP Howell Second Worst &#124; Rays Index</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/06/reliever-ratings-2008/#comment-88253</link>
		<dc:creator>Ranking The AL Closers; JP Howell Second Worst &#124; Rays Index</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 14:35:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/06/reliever-ratings-2008/#comment-88253</guid>
		<description>[...] year, Joe Posnanski generated a new statistic to evaluate closers (CLOSER+) based on Bill James&#8217; method of classifying saves. James breaks [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] year, Joe Posnanski generated a new statistic to evaluate closers (CLOSER+) based on Bill James&#8217; method of classifying saves. James breaks [...]</p>
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		<title>By: YankeesVine &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Mariano the Magnificent</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/06/reliever-ratings-2008/#comment-42235</link>
		<dc:creator>YankeesVine &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Mariano the Magnificent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 01:59:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/06/reliever-ratings-2008/#comment-42235</guid>
		<description>[...] of the Kansas City Star takes some interesting date from the Bill James Handbook and concludes that Mariano Rivera was the best closer in baseball in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of the Kansas City Star takes some interesting date from the Bill James Handbook and concludes that Mariano Rivera was the best closer in baseball in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Ardanowski</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/06/reliever-ratings-2008/#comment-40633</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Ardanowski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 03:57:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/06/reliever-ratings-2008/#comment-40633</guid>
		<description>When the Joba debates were raging, I thought about reliever usage and thought that his best role would be as a &quot;bridge man&quot;. The Royals should employ Soria in the same way in 2009. Heck, if I managed the Rays, I&#039;d consider using David Price as a bridge man next season.

You&#039;d keep a standard bullpen of one-inning guys and left-handed specialists, but the &quot;bridge man&quot; would enter in the 5th, 6th, or 7th inning to replace a shaky starter with the intent of finishing the game (or, if you have a dominant closer like Mo Rivera, handing the ball off in the 9th) and pitch twice on every turn of the rotation.

So his stat line would be approx. 60 games, 150 well-leveraged innings, a lot of decisions, and, if you don&#039;t have Mo to wrap up, 20 or so saves. I think it&#039;s a fabulous outside-the-box idea.

Plus, the bridge man would give you an extra bench player (b/c you replace two 70 IP pitchers with one 150 IP pitcher).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When the Joba debates were raging, I thought about reliever usage and thought that his best role would be as a &#8220;bridge man&#8221;. The Royals should employ Soria in the same way in 2009. Heck, if I managed the Rays, I&#8217;d consider using David Price as a bridge man next season.</p>
<p>You&#8217;d keep a standard bullpen of one-inning guys and left-handed specialists, but the &#8220;bridge man&#8221; would enter in the 5th, 6th, or 7th inning to replace a shaky starter with the intent of finishing the game (or, if you have a dominant closer like Mo Rivera, handing the ball off in the 9th) and pitch twice on every turn of the rotation.</p>
<p>So his stat line would be approx. 60 games, 150 well-leveraged innings, a lot of decisions, and, if you don&#8217;t have Mo to wrap up, 20 or so saves. I think it&#8217;s a fabulous outside-the-box idea.</p>
<p>Plus, the bridge man would give you an extra bench player (b/c you replace two 70 IP pitchers with one 150 IP pitcher).</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Aronson</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/06/reliever-ratings-2008/#comment-40020</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Aronson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 18:21:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/06/reliever-ratings-2008/#comment-40020</guid>
		<description>Pitching, more than anything else in playing baseball, is mental.  It is repeating exactly the same action with only the tiniest of adjustments, and knowing what adjustments to make.  It is making the batters guess wrong by altering pitch selection.  Hitting and fielding are all responding to other circumstances; pitching initiates everything.

That given, being a closer is more mental stress than almost any kind of pitching.  Okay, I imagine guys like Webb, Santana, and Sabathia, in the heat of a pennant race, knowing their team *needs* them to do well to have a shot at the postseason, has comparable stress levels.    But every game the closer pitches is almost by definition a close game, a game with little or no margin of error.  Plus, starters are generally noted for an assortment of pitches, and hitters have a harder time sitting on just one pitch.  And starters throw many innings per start.  Their success is rarely limited by familiarity.  Closers, on the other hand, often depend on just one or two pitches, usually throw just one inning, and the more their pitches get seen and can be reviewed on video, the less likely they are to be effective.

Frankie Rodriguez saved more games than anybody in the history of baseball this season, and on top of all that he did so for a playoff team, so the games were more meaningful than, say, the games the Wilsons or Soria saved.  That&#039;s more times he faced the mental stress of coming in to the game.  That&#039;s more times teams saw him pitch, and thus more times he had to go to his lesser pitches in order to fool guys who saw him pitch the night before as well.

Nothing against Soria, who had a great year.  But K-Rod&#039;s expected saves were ten higher than anybody&#039;s actual saves, and of course his actual saves were ten more than that.  I&#039;d expect anybody to lose some effectiveness under that workload, just from the mental stress.  So whatever formula you&#039;re using (and why you didn&#039;t publish it is beyond me; it&#039;s not impossible somebody here would have made a suggestion that you would have accepted as an improvement) should have some tiny component that adds a fraction for each save situation entered, say +.05 for each save situation.  As a computer game designer, I&#039;d actually write an algorithm with a small bit of scaling (the 40th save opportunity, with its accumulated stress, is tougher than then 10th) but not knowing the proper inflection points, I&#039;m not sure what numbers to use.  It would be an interesting item for study, methinks, if I were a baseball professional of some sort.  I&#039;m not, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pitching, more than anything else in playing baseball, is mental.  It is repeating exactly the same action with only the tiniest of adjustments, and knowing what adjustments to make.  It is making the batters guess wrong by altering pitch selection.  Hitting and fielding are all responding to other circumstances; pitching initiates everything.</p>
<p>That given, being a closer is more mental stress than almost any kind of pitching.  Okay, I imagine guys like Webb, Santana, and Sabathia, in the heat of a pennant race, knowing their team *needs* them to do well to have a shot at the postseason, has comparable stress levels.    But every game the closer pitches is almost by definition a close game, a game with little or no margin of error.  Plus, starters are generally noted for an assortment of pitches, and hitters have a harder time sitting on just one pitch.  And starters throw many innings per start.  Their success is rarely limited by familiarity.  Closers, on the other hand, often depend on just one or two pitches, usually throw just one inning, and the more their pitches get seen and can be reviewed on video, the less likely they are to be effective.</p>
<p>Frankie Rodriguez saved more games than anybody in the history of baseball this season, and on top of all that he did so for a playoff team, so the games were more meaningful than, say, the games the Wilsons or Soria saved.  That&#8217;s more times he faced the mental stress of coming in to the game.  That&#8217;s more times teams saw him pitch, and thus more times he had to go to his lesser pitches in order to fool guys who saw him pitch the night before as well.</p>
<p>Nothing against Soria, who had a great year.  But K-Rod&#8217;s expected saves were ten higher than anybody&#8217;s actual saves, and of course his actual saves were ten more than that.  I&#8217;d expect anybody to lose some effectiveness under that workload, just from the mental stress.  So whatever formula you&#8217;re using (and why you didn&#8217;t publish it is beyond me; it&#8217;s not impossible somebody here would have made a suggestion that you would have accepted as an improvement) should have some tiny component that adds a fraction for each save situation entered, say +.05 for each save situation.  As a computer game designer, I&#8217;d actually write an algorithm with a small bit of scaling (the 40th save opportunity, with its accumulated stress, is tougher than then 10th) but not knowing the proper inflection points, I&#8217;m not sure what numbers to use.  It would be an interesting item for study, methinks, if I were a baseball professional of some sort.  I&#8217;m not, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Brent</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/06/reliever-ratings-2008/#comment-39794</link>
		<dc:creator>Brent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:22:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/06/reliever-ratings-2008/#comment-39794</guid>
		<description>Hoyt Wilhelm, Charlie Hough, Wilbur Wood.  Wow, seems like managers never can figure out how to handle their knuckleballers, can they?  He&#039;s a reliever, no, he&#039;s a starter, no, he&#039;s a reliever.  (although I can pretty much guarantee no ML manager would have the internal fortitude to make a knuckleballer his closer nowadays, talk about ulcers)

On the baserunning stats, do these take into account the unaccounted for in the stat sheet bases, when the runner &quot;moves up&quot; on the throw home?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hoyt Wilhelm, Charlie Hough, Wilbur Wood.  Wow, seems like managers never can figure out how to handle their knuckleballers, can they?  He&#8217;s a reliever, no, he&#8217;s a starter, no, he&#8217;s a reliever.  (although I can pretty much guarantee no ML manager would have the internal fortitude to make a knuckleballer his closer nowadays, talk about ulcers)</p>
<p>On the baserunning stats, do these take into account the unaccounted for in the stat sheet bases, when the runner &#8220;moves up&#8221; on the throw home?</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/06/reliever-ratings-2008/#comment-39596</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 15:53:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/06/reliever-ratings-2008/#comment-39596</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like to see Jason Isringhausen&#039;s CLOSER+ number for 2008.

Then again, I like to see the aftermath of really bad car accidents, too.  I&#039;m just that kind of sicko.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like to see Jason Isringhausen&#8217;s CLOSER+ number for 2008.</p>
<p>Then again, I like to see the aftermath of really bad car accidents, too.  I&#8217;m just that kind of sicko.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/06/reliever-ratings-2008/#comment-39593</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 14:28:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/06/reliever-ratings-2008/#comment-39593</guid>
		<description>Leave Soria in the pen and closer is a position of strength.  Take him out, and it may not be, and there is no guarantee he will be a successful starter.  Leave a good thing alone.  

Then again, I tend to overvalue closers.  I firmly believe that the Yanks would be better off leaving Joba in the pen, setting up Mo one more year, then taking over as a full-time (and utterly dominant) closer.  There is nothing more demoralizing to an opponent than knowing the game is 7 innings long, and with Joba in the 8th and Rivera in the 9th, that is what it would be.  The game has become that specialized.  

With the increased awareness of pitch counts, the emphasis on OBP on offense and even effective starters now routinely going 6 innings or less (see Matsuzaka, Daisuke), the bullpen is of extreme importance, maybe to the point of being on par with the starting rotation (that&#039;s an overstatement, but I think it is true with most teams, for starters 3-5 in their rotations).  Thus, why not deal from strength.

In other words, with the paucity of good starting pitching, I see the script now as follows:  you build a good bullpen including a reliable 8th inning guy and a 9th inning stud, and you hope your #3-5 starters to go 5-6 innings and keep the game close.  Then you hope to beat up the other team&#039;s bullpen and win it with your strength at the end.  

Wouldn&#039;t a team like the Royals be better off doing that?  Good relievers cost much less than even average starters, so it fits the budget.  Young flamethrowers who cannot make it as starters, because they don&#039;t add in the secondary pitches, can be effective an inning at a time.  And if you build an offense around big OBP in order to get the other team&#039;s good starters out of the game based on pitch count (and here&#039;s a BIG PROBLEM for the Royals, see Jacobs, Mike), you level the playing field a bit - my bullpen against yours.

Just a thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leave Soria in the pen and closer is a position of strength.  Take him out, and it may not be, and there is no guarantee he will be a successful starter.  Leave a good thing alone.  </p>
<p>Then again, I tend to overvalue closers.  I firmly believe that the Yanks would be better off leaving Joba in the pen, setting up Mo one more year, then taking over as a full-time (and utterly dominant) closer.  There is nothing more demoralizing to an opponent than knowing the game is 7 innings long, and with Joba in the 8th and Rivera in the 9th, that is what it would be.  The game has become that specialized.  </p>
<p>With the increased awareness of pitch counts, the emphasis on OBP on offense and even effective starters now routinely going 6 innings or less (see Matsuzaka, Daisuke), the bullpen is of extreme importance, maybe to the point of being on par with the starting rotation (that&#8217;s an overstatement, but I think it is true with most teams, for starters 3-5 in their rotations).  Thus, why not deal from strength.</p>
<p>In other words, with the paucity of good starting pitching, I see the script now as follows:  you build a good bullpen including a reliable 8th inning guy and a 9th inning stud, and you hope your #3-5 starters to go 5-6 innings and keep the game close.  Then you hope to beat up the other team&#8217;s bullpen and win it with your strength at the end.  </p>
<p>Wouldn&#8217;t a team like the Royals be better off doing that?  Good relievers cost much less than even average starters, so it fits the budget.  Young flamethrowers who cannot make it as starters, because they don&#8217;t add in the secondary pitches, can be effective an inning at a time.  And if you build an offense around big OBP in order to get the other team&#8217;s good starters out of the game based on pitch count (and here&#8217;s a BIG PROBLEM for the Royals, see Jacobs, Mike), you level the playing field a bit &#8211; my bullpen against yours.</p>
<p>Just a thought.</p>
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		<title>By: Mikey</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/06/reliever-ratings-2008/#comment-39531</link>
		<dc:creator>Mikey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 23:39:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/06/reliever-ratings-2008/#comment-39531</guid>
		<description>Love the baserunning stat. I would like to see those bases and stolen bases added to total bases and call it something like &quot;baserunning-added total bases&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Love the baserunning stat. I would like to see those bases and stolen bases added to total bases and call it something like &#8220;baserunning-added total bases&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/06/reliever-ratings-2008/#comment-39518</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 21:50:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/06/reliever-ratings-2008/#comment-39518</guid>
		<description>I agree that starters are more valuable than closers, but if the Royals move Soria we would have to have someone just as good to close.  Giving up a lead in the 9th and losing is very painful, so finally having a good closer was really nice last year.

A big concern of mine with making him a starter is all the trouble he had with fatigue last year.  He didn&#039;t pitch for like a week (can&#039;t remember specifically how many games) because of fatigue.  They also rarely ever brought him in before the 9th to save him as well.  If he is a starter how many innings can he go.

Right now I want him to stay a closer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that starters are more valuable than closers, but if the Royals move Soria we would have to have someone just as good to close.  Giving up a lead in the 9th and losing is very painful, so finally having a good closer was really nice last year.</p>
<p>A big concern of mine with making him a starter is all the trouble he had with fatigue last year.  He didn&#8217;t pitch for like a week (can&#8217;t remember specifically how many games) because of fatigue.  They also rarely ever brought him in before the 9th to save him as well.  If he is a starter how many innings can he go.</p>
<p>Right now I want him to stay a closer.</p>
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		<title>By: Graphite</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/06/reliever-ratings-2008/#comment-39517</link>
		<dc:creator>Graphite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 21:39:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/06/reliever-ratings-2008/#comment-39517</guid>
		<description>Interrupting for a moment with baserunners â€” is there anything more annoying than watching the ball bounce into the stands for a ground-rule double just as the runner from first is heading for third and ultimately home?

I&#039;d like to see a rule change that gives the batter two bases but the man on first three. Or maybe draw a line on the centre-field wall and make anything right of that a triple for the runner.

Thank you. Back to closers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interrupting for a moment with baserunners â€” is there anything more annoying than watching the ball bounce into the stands for a ground-rule double just as the runner from first is heading for third and ultimately home?</p>
<p>I&#8217;d like to see a rule change that gives the batter two bases but the man on first three. Or maybe draw a line on the centre-field wall and make anything right of that a triple for the runner.</p>
<p>Thank you. Back to closers.</p>
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