Big Game Garza and Other Thoughts
Posted: October 20th, 2008 | Filed under: Baseball, Other Sports, Pop Culture | 95 Comments »
It has been a while since we’ve had a rambling, pozterisk-drunk post. Well, not anymore.
* * *
Philosophers have long marveled at the mysteries and quirks of the human mind. This began many years before they listened to Buck Martinez call a baseball game.*
*So, during Sunday night’s Game 7, while Big Game Garza** was pitching the Rays to their first World Series, We all heard Buck Martinez say many odd things. But this especially baffled me:
“There are two positions on the field where you can have a positive impact without hitting. Catcher and shortstop.”
Now, I don’t really want to delve into the logic of this statement, in large part because I fear that it will be like some inescapable language maze*** and I’ll end up wandering the dark forever. I’m assuming that Buck was simply repeating one of those baseball chestnuts about how catchers and shortstops (and ONLY catchers and shortstops) offer so much value as defenders and leaders and role models and good-will ambassadors and scrappers that they don’t even have to hit baseballs with bats in order to help the ballclub. They can beat you with their minds. And their power to turn invisible.
No, what struck me about it was how utterly confident Buck sounded saying this — he said it like he was simply reciting a fact he had picked up. The last president to not graduate from college was Harry Truman. … The theme songs from Diff’rent Strokes and Facts of LIfe were composed by Alan Thicke … The emperor penguin can grow to almost four feet tall … There are two positions on the field where you can have a positive impact without hitting — catcher and shortstop.
**OK, so seriously, isn’t Big Game Garza a better nickname than Big Game James? For one thing, it’s more original than Big Game James. Second, it has a nice alliteration thing. And, third, it’s actually true. Garza was fabulous in Game 7. I saw him pitch a couple of times this year, and though he had some good outings and flashed some good stuff, I cannot remember him dialing up the fastball like he did Sunday night.
Think about this for a minute:
Matt Garza will turn 25 in November.
Scott Kazmir won’t be 25 until January.
James Shields will be 27 in December.
David Price will be 23 on Opening Day.
Andy Sonnastine, Edwin Jackson, J.P. Howell are all 25 or 26 next year.
You can do this with hitters too. B.J. Upton**** will be 24 almost all of next season. Evan Longoria just turned 23. Dioner Navarro will be 25 in February. Even Carl Crawford, who seems to have been around since the dawn of man, just turned 27 in August.
But let’s stick with potchers. It’s an obvious point but: This team is pretty much built to beat the Yankees and the Red Sox for the next five years. The Rays are just the 10th team since Pearl Harbor Day to have three young starting pitchers with ERA’s of 118 or better.
1. Tampa 2008 (James Shields, Matt Garza, Scott Kazmir)
2. Cubs 2003 (Kerry Wood, Carlos Zambrano, Mark Prior)
3. Oakland 2002 (Barry Zito, Tim Hudson, Mark Mulder)
4. Oakland 2001 (Zito, Hudson, Mulder)
5. Mets 1985 (Ron Darling*****, Dwight Gooden, Sid Fernandez)
6. Houston 1971 (Don Wilson, Ken Forsch, Larry Dierker)
7. Minnesota 1970 (Tom Hall, Bill Zepp, Bert Blyleven)
8. Cleveland 1966 (Luis Tiant, Steve Hargan, Sudden Sam)
9. Milwaukee 1953 (Lew Burdette, Johnny Antonelli, Bob Buhl)
10. Detroit 1942 (Hal Newhouser, Hal White, Virgil Trucks)
There are some mixed reviews in there, of course. The ‘85 Mets, of course, became the historic ‘86 Mets. The two Oakland teams became Moneyball (starring Brad Pitt). The 2003 Cubs became a Greek tragedy. The 1966 Indians never did squat. And so on. But here’s the thing, as far as I can tell none of those teams had a fourth guy who might end up being the best of the bunch — that’s David Price. You realize he became the youngest man EVER to finish off a Game 7? (Clarification: Since a couple of people wrote in about this, let me rephrase this: He’s the youngest man ever to FINISH a Game 7 — as in reliever, closer, you know. It is more accurate, I suppose, to say he’s the youngest to ever get a save in Game 7 — he was about 200 days younger than Will McEnaney in 1975. And this gives me a chance to say — did I mention I was writing a book about the 1975 Reds?). And he struck out J.D. Drew with the bases loaded — overwhelmed J.D. Drew, really.
The Rays really could have FOUR NUMBER ONE STARTERS next year. I gotta be honest with you, I don’t care if the Yankees****** spend a billion jillion shmillion dollars, I don’t care if my friends Bill and Allard create some new scouting-statistical nirvana in Boston. I’m not sure anyone is going to beat a team with four No. 1 starters.
***I have this irrational fear that I will get stuck in one of those cornfield mazes and never be able to find my way out. I say this is an irrational fear because, quite honestly, I don’t really foresee a scenario in which I will ever be in a cornfield maze. I don’t believe I’ve ever been in one in my life, and I can’t imagine that at any point I’m going to say, “Hey everybody, I’ve got to run some errands today but first let’s stop at a cornfield maze and get lost!” But somehow this fear sticks with me. I also have a fear of ventriloquist dummies, but this is not irrational. This was infused in me by the movie Magic and, even more, that incredibly creepy Fantasy Island episode where the dummy came to life. I believe that was based on a true story.
****I just saw an email from one of Tommy over at Outs Per Swing where he wonders what I think of a comparison between B.J. Upton and the young Eric Davis. I think he sent this to me quite a while ago (sorry Tommy) but I’ll say now think it’s an interesting comparison. I had not thought of this, but they really do look a lot alike as players — athletic, right-handed, center fielders, great arms, great speed, strike out a lot, good patience, jolting power and so on. I’d say that both even have the look that makes people somehow think they should be even better, even though they’re already pretty darned good.
I think Upton’s remarkable — and I do mean remarkable — sense of the strike zone at such a young age separates him from Davis. He walked 97 times at 23 years old. There have only been 22 players in baseball history who have walked 95 or more times during their age 23 year. The list is loaded with great players including:
Ted Wililams (145)
Frank Thomas (138)
Rickey Henderson (116)
Reggie Jackson (114)
Mickey Mantle (113)
Eddie Mathews (109)
Lou Gehrig (105)
Mel Ott (100)
Tim Raines (97)
Arky Vaughn (97)
Ken Griffey (96)
Yaz (95)
So more than half of the list went on to have, what I consider to be Hall of Fame careers*******. And the rest ain’t too bad either — Eddie Yost (the Walking Man!), Harlond Clift, Troy Glaus, Charlie Keller, Alvin Davis, these are All-Star caliber players, or in the case of Alvin Davis they are one-time All-Stars who once hit me in the foot with a wild throw during batting practice. Alvin apologized and was very nice about it, but it now occurs to me that I missed the one opportunity I will have in my entire life to suddenly let loose with a loud “ALVIN!!!!”
Point is, I think Upton’s patience at the plate is something that could make him a big star in this league for many years. On the other hand, I don’t think Upton or perhaps anyone else is as talented as the young Eric Davis — talking about power and speed talent here I mean, it still blows me away to go back and look at Davis’ first two full seasons — especially because they weren’t all that full:
1986: Davis hit .277 with 27 home runs and, get this, 80 stolen bases. The amazing part — he did it in 132 games and 487 plate appearances. That’s just awe inspiring. If he could have played at that level for a full season, he might have hit 30 homers and stolen 100 bases. And he was just 24 years old and had no idea what he was doing.
1987: Davis hit .293 with 37 homers, 100 RBIs, 120 runs scored and 50 stolen bases (he was caught 6 times). And the crazy thing is he played in even fewer games than he did in 1986. He missed 33 games. He could have hit 40 homers and stolen 70 bases with a full year. It’s insane.
I think Upton is a remarkable talent. I think Upton could end up being a better player than Davis because of that strike zone management. But I don’t think I’ve ever watched anyone with more raw ability than the young Eric Davis.
*****I have to say, I’ve really enjoyed Ron Darling’s commentary during the playoffs. He has not only wrapped bandages around some of the verbal wounds his partners caused, but I thought he added quite a few original thoughts to the process.
******Have you noticed a sudden increase in Derek Jeter’s exposure? Maybe it’s because I saw him at the Texas-Missouri game Saturday — what a thriller THAT was, by the way — but it made me think: Man, Derek has been EVERYWHERE lately. What is he doing, like 12 different commercials. He’s got the shaver commercial. He’s got that commercial where he hears the cheers, not even sure what that’s for. He seems to have three or four more. I don’t have an issue with this — as mentioned here before, I like Derek Jeter — but I was just wondering if this was a conscious effort to boost his Q-Rating even higher. Maybe I’m just imagining things.
*******I sure hope that the voters are going to wake up on Tim Raines. He only got 24.3% of the Hall of Fame vote last year, which I think is a very bad sign especially because we’ve got some big, big names coming up in the Hall of Fame voting. In fact, I just did a mammoth piece for The Hardball Times Annual about an upcoming Hall of Fame class that could feature Bonds, Clemens, Biggio, Piazza and Sosa (not to mention Curt Schilling, Kenny Lofton, etc.). And over the next couple of years, I imagine players like Big Unit, Junior, Pedro, Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Pudge v.2.0 will retire. Raines He has a chance to get lost, which would be real shame. Raines was a great player.
OK, are we done with the Pozterisks? We are. Whew. Man, it’s funny, the only point I really wanted to make in this post was that I woke up Monday morning with the Olivia Newton John song “Magic” playing in my head over and over again. I have probably not heard that song in 20 years, but there it is, I can still hear it …
You have to believe we are magic
Nothing can stand in our way
You have to believe we are magic
Don’t let your aim ever stray
And if all your hopes … sur-viiiiiive
Destiny will arriiiiive
I’ll bring all your dreams alive
For you.
Good, now that song is stuck in your head too. See that’s not a lot of fun. I really would like that song out of my head. I wonder if there’s money to be made with a “get this damn song out of my head” business. I could just see people coming into the place, desperately humming “Electric Avenue” or “Pocketful of Sunshine” and begging, “Can you please help me?” The process would no doubt involve a hammer. We really don’t know our own minds.
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The quickest way to get a song out of your head is to sing the doot doot doo doo part from Tom’s Diner by Suzanne Vega. It works 100% of the time.
No guarantees that you won’t go crazy from having Tom’s Diner stuck in your head for the rest of the day, though.
I have a student with the name of Alvin; therefore I burst forth with an “ALVIN!!!!” every now and then, just because I can. It’s oddly satisfying- to me, not to him. He bears it well, I think.
I used to think of Raines as HoF game, but now when I look back on his career and his numbers I think he comes up just short*.
*And that wasn’t a joke about his height**.
**Seriously.
In 1985 the Royals had a 21 year old Cy Young winning Bret Saberhagen, a 22 year old Danny Jackson (who would win the NL Cy Young in 3 years), a 23 year old Mark Gubicza (who would be a 20 game winner in 3 years), and a 22 year old David Cone in the minors (who would go 20-3 in 3 years).
Yet, with all that pitching talent, they won squat after 1985. Of course, much of that was because they got a good-field, no hit SS when they traded DJ and got an injured backup catcher when they traded Cone.
Ah, Eric Davis. In junior high, before the start of the 1987 season, I bet my friend Domingos that Davis and Strawberry would collectively make the 80-80 club. They didn’t both have to go 40-40, but they had to combine for 80-80. I made this bet even though neither of them had ever hit 40 HRs in a season.
I forget why we connected Straw and Davis. They were high school teammates, maybe?
And I missed it by 4 lousy HRs. They combined for 76 Hrs and 86 SBs. If only Davis had been a little healthier.
And by the way, how did Strawberry finsih 6th in the MVP voting that year? 6th? Behind Ozzie Smith and Tim Wallach, among others?
Thanks Brent.
I will now commence smacking my head against a wall.
wow, there’s a movie puzzle. MAGIC! written by william goldman, directed by richard attenborough, starring anthony hopkins and burgess meredith (and ann-margaret). what could this movie be about? bio-pic of a famous and world-changing magician? heartfelt drama about a quietly inspiring teacher in the third-world? mystery thriller about a young woman on the run from the law? nope. evil ventriloquist dummy. amazing movie.
I think we already have a “get this song out of my head” device – the iPod. The best way to get a song out of your head is to listen to it, or another song.
‘Pozterisk-drunk’ is kind of understating it a bit, don’t you think? That post has to go find itself some off-campus housing, because it just got banned from the dorms forever.
“Think about this for a minute:
Matt Garza will turn 25 in November.
Scott Kazmir won’t be 25 until January.”
Scott Garza was Lincoln’s secretary, and Matt Kazmir was Kennedy’s secretary.
I would like to ask Buck Martinez what knowledge of the situation he has that allows him and him alone to know that David Ortiz’s last name is actually pronounced “Ortez.”
The Twins had a decent young bunch also (Baker, Blackburn, Liriano, Perkins, Slowey), but what percentage of pitchers of that age who have a “break-out” year continue to progress?
Talking about Eric Davis and B. J. Upton and the Hall of Fame. . . .
At any time in baseball history (except during World War II), there are 30 or more (sometimes 54) active players who will later be selected to the Hall. [Okay, a few of them are Billy Southworths and Sparky Andersons who will be selected as managers.]
So who, in 2008, are these 30 or more players? Maddux and Pujols are easy. (And yes, Raines belongs.) In the 1980’s we might have said Eric Davis and Darryl Strawberry and Bret Saberhagen. . . .
You forgot to mention the Rays player of the year, Jason Bartlett. Certainly he was the reason Tampa’s going to the World Series, right?
Nothing good ever comes when I focus on the potchers.
To Bob Tholkes:
The Twins’ pitching is certainly GOOD, but nowhere near the four aces of the Rays (calling Kazmir an ace may be overstating it, but an argument could be made). Liriano and Slowey are great #2s, Baker and Blackburn solid #3s. Glen Perkins will be pitching in an independent league in 3 years.
Great Story Brent, except Jackson never won the Cy Young that year. He finished second behind the Orel Hershiser. He only won 10 games twice in the 10 years after that
When the Mets hired Ron Darling to do color, I assumed they were just throwing us the “beloved ex-player” bone. But I can tell you from daily listening that he has remarkable game knowledge (not just pitching, either) and is also a personable & articulate communicator.
Keith Hernandez is also quite good although much more likely to say something weird, or simply contrary for the sake of stirring the pot.
I’ve been receiving baseball through an IV for almost my entire life and Ron still regularly brings up something I’ve never thought about.
Dammit Roarke!!!
(Searches frantically for iPod…)
The Rays really are very good. And I read an article the other day (it might have been HT) about how they have just as much pitching talent still in the minors (Davis, Hellickson, Niemann, etc). They’re a bit lighter on positional talent, but you have to think they’ll do a reverse Young-Garza and trade one or more of those young pitchers for a young stud shortstop or second baseman. How much does Joe Maddon love his position right now?
Mike:
You are right about DJ, I forgot he had the misfortune to cash in his incredible talent the same year Orel basically didn’t give up a run for the last 2 months of the season (including playoffs).
Still wouldn’t trade him for Kurt Stilwell, if I could have the Royals do it all over again. With the 4 mentioned above, and add in Kevin Appier and Tom Gordon, the Royals certainly could have at least given the A’s a run at the division a few times.
I have no idea what the heck just happened…
@Bob Tholke – re: the Twins staff, if they don’t make the Garza/Delmon Young deal last offseason, and had taken the alleged Lester/Lowrie/Masterson offer from the Red Sox for Santana, then they would be looking at a 2009 rotation of Liriano/Garza/Lester/Slowey/Baker, with Masterson, Blackburn and Perkins around, and no Delmon Young making outs at the plate while not making them in the outfield.
It maybe wouldn’t match the Rays’ young arms, and meanwhile the Sox would be well-armed with Santana, Dice-K and Beckett, but would be cheap, fast and cost-controlled for the next several years.
The only way to get a song like that out of your head is to sing “Row Row Row Your Boat” a few times. For some unknown reason, it will remove the stuck song, yet not replace it.
(Of course, I’ve had the theme song to “WKRP in Cincinnati” in my head for weeks now, so what do I know?)
Although I am not afraid of ventriloquist dummies, Fantasy Island did instill a fear of clown dolls in my psyche. I don’t mind clowns, but those big clown dolls freak me out. Poltergeist got that idea from Fantasy Island, and it didn’t help my fear …
Joe P.
Almost 30 years ago I was a grad student at Okie State in Stillwater, OK seeing if I could find my way through their Geography Masters program. By the grace of God, my advisor (a geography of sport headliner at the time, John F. Rooney) handed me some incredibly great data…The complete list of amateur baseball players who were drafted and signed a professional MLB contract (also, American-born signed free agents were also included) from 1965 thru 1978. There were nearly 14,000 names with hometowns listed, signed by which MLB team, etc. It was a treasure trove of info and it along with hours and hours of burning the midnight oil allowed me to finally finish my thesis and earn a Masters degree in 1980.
One of my happiest days of 1980 was seeing my thesis warmly reviewd by Ralph Ray, a Sporting News editorial guy. Mr. Ray devoted an entire column to my geographical research in a July 1980 issue of The Sporting News. A big deal for me anyway!
So, what is the point to all of this? Well, since finding your blog and your column with SI.com I feel like you might be the crazy kind of baseball nut that would enjoy thumbing through the 150+ page thesis with maps and charts and all of that other stuff that geography professors were attempting to teach in the 1970s before you set fire to it in order to survive a cold, wintry might in our heartland. I have a few extra copies gathering New Mexico dust here in Albuquerque and I’d be pleased to send you a copy if you are interested. Just let me know where to send it and it’ll come your way sometime before the first heavy snowfall.
Keep up your great columns and blogs. I love your stuff. Thanks
Sincerely,
Mark W. Rupert
10537 4th Street NW
Albuquerque, NM 87114
Figures, I thought I was safe cause I only know like 2 Olivia Newton John songs, and I didn’t recognize Magic as one of them….until I got to the end of the post and read the lyrics. Damn you, Poz, just….damn.
Ron Darling was a disaster on Nationals broadcasts in 2005. He’s improved a lot since then. We were the “Bosom Buddies” of his career.
I didn’t even read the full two words, just scanned the ‘ric Aen’ and I heard the synth buzzing and rising and falling wheeemp-whooomp Electric Avenue. I’m singing it. I’m singing it in my head.
Full disclosure: I had the tape, and I listened to it a lot. I got it for my birthday when I was what fourteen, along with the Miami Vice soundtrack. The tape with Electric Avenue, called “Killer on the Rampage” lasted better. In fact, it’s a good album. War Party, Drop, Baby, Drop (“I love you like a mango… drop, baby, drop” — it’s not about LSD).
And now, since I had to look up the release year on wikipedia, I know that Electric Avenue is the first electrified shopping district in London. What a day.
I have nothing against Jason Barlett on a personal level, but it made me very happy whenever he made an error.* I have no idea what people see in him. He’s great against left-handed pitching and, uh … I got nothing.
*and not just because I was rooting for the Sox.
Yeah, um, not so much on the Ron Darling love, sorry. Last night, the great (ahem) Chip Caray brought up the ridiculous comparisons that used to be made between Rocco Baldelli and Joe DiMaggio, and Darling agreed with those idiotic comparisons, saying, “Just look at the numbers”. Um, okay:
AGE 21: Baldelli – 99 OPS+; DiMaggio – 128 OPS+
AGE 22: Baldelli – 100 OPS+; DiMaggio – 168 OPS+
AGE 23: Baldelli – OUT; DiMaggio – 139 OPS+
AGE 24: Baldelli – 122 OPS+; DiMaggio – 184 OPS+
I’m not giving Darling any props until he stops making errors of this magnitude.
@ Jon
That’s crazy. And do you know what you get when you add all of the letters in Matt Garza and Scott Kazmir (or Scott Garza and Matt Kazmir), and then add 4 for ALCS and take back one for the God who’s Ark this is?
THE NUMBER 23!!!
OH MY GOD!!
Joe, I assume you mean Price was the youngest RELIEVER to ever finish off a game 7?
Because Saberhagen was only 21 when he finished off Game 7 of the 85 WS with a CG – and price is already 23 this season.
Speaking of Price – isn’t it funny how we all automatically assume Price will be in the rotation. If this was the Royals, we would argue incessently about whether he should close or start, and then our GM would stubbornly say his vote is the only one that counts and pronounce Price the closer.
Wonder which organization is being run more intelligently?
More to support my point:
Would anybody trade Soria for Price, even up, today?
Didn’t think so.
Please, GMDM, move him to the rotation next season. At least try it and see what happens.
He screws up sometimes, but I generally like Ron Darling, too. Us Mets fans are fortunate to have an unusually tolerable broadcast team with him, Keith Hernandez and Gary Cohen. That’s not to say that they’re great, or don’t come out with wrongheaded things on a somewhat regular basis (they do), but at least they’re articulate, they know the game, and they try to say something original. They don’t really distract from the game, and that’s more than you can say for most broadcasters/commentators in baseball.
Ron Darling — I can’t believe I’m defending him — was saying they both wear number 5.
Speaking as one of the zillions of Jewish kids who once wrote a report on Sandy Koufax for Hebrew School (Assisgment: Write about a Jewish-American hero.) I’ll go out on a limb and guess that Baldelli is not the first Italian-American who wears No. 5.
Paul:
Baldelli and DiMaggio are both right-handed hitting Italian outfielders who wear number 5. What else do you need?
“…catchers and shortstops (and ONLY catchers and shortstops) offer so much value as defenders and leaders and role models and good-will ambassadors and scrappers that they don’t even have to hit baseballs with bats in order to help the ballclub. They can beat you with their minds. And their power to turn invisible.”
Are we certain that this wasn’t a guest-post by Ken Tremendous?
Rock Raines is definitely a HOF’er.
102 runs per 162 games
great eye — .385 OBP, about 85 BB’s a season
and Hendersonesque game changing speed: 808 steals and a spectacular 85% steal percentage
Great story on Raines, couldn’t remember all the details but this is from his Wiki page:
Raines became a free agent on November 12, 1986,[12] but in spite of his league-leading play, no team made a serious attempt to sign him.[15] (During this period, the Major League Baseball owners were acting together to keep salaries down — see “Baseball collusion”.) On May 1, 1987, hours after being permitted to negotiate again with Montreal, Raines signed a new deal with the Expos for $5,000,000 over three years, and a $900,000 signing bonus.[15] In his first game back on May 2, facing the Mets, although Raines had not participated in spring training or any other competitive preparation for the season, he hit the first pitch he saw off the right-field wall for a triple. Raines finished the game with four hits in five at-bats, three runs, one walk, a stolen base, and a game-winning grand slam in the 10th inning.
One thing I MUST say about Mr. Garza. His constant spitting was absolutely, downright, disgusting. I am no spit prude in baseball and realize it’s as much a part of the game as jock shifting and tightening batting glove velcro but Mr. Garza took it to such a stringy, lugey, disgusting level I was praying for a relief pitcher – not so we could get a hit – but so I wouldn’t have to watch his incessant, non stop, tongue infused spit fest.
Having said that, I cannot say enough how impressed I am with the young Rays. Watch out Am. League East. Still as a Sox fan how can I be disappointed in this season?
The questions linger though. What do we do with Varitek? And Crisp? I felt so bad for Tek last night AND Big Papi. They looked completely over matched at the plate.
Let me just add… Phillies in 6.
I now have the Chipmunks song in my head. Thanks, Joe.
I like Ron Darling because he’s ridiculously smart but doesn’t feel the need to be a dick about it, or an arrogant fool. And he did win an Emmy in 2006 for Best Sports Analyst. And he’s just a classy guy. I mean, he went to Yale, for chrissake.
Not sure why I feel the need to defend Ron here but there you go.
At least he wasn’t blatantly electioneering the entire series unlike Chip.
Houston has the Oilers
The greatest football team
We’ll take the ball from goal to goal
Like no one’s ever seen
We’re in the air
We’re on the ground
Always in control
And when you say the Oilers
You’re talkin Super Bowl
Cuz we’re the
Houston Oilers
Houston Oilers
Houston Oilers number 1!
(repeat 735 times)
Go ahead, see if that helps.
The best thing about the Oilers song is that it is totally inaccurate. . . . especially the first line.
Since the Chiefs were being prepared to get slaughtered by the Titans yesterday, on the way to the game, my uncle pulled out the audio cassette of the 1993 Chiefs/Oilers playoff game to remember what it was like to have a good team. An Oiler TD took place, followed by that song in the background. It’s been in my head ever since. As an aside, I miss Kevin Harlan
I have always assumed that Buck Martinez’s comments re offense and catchers (and the lack of necessity for offense from catchers) stemmed from his need to justify his existence as a ML ballplayer.
.225/.284/.343 with lifetimed OPS+ of 72. That’s approaching TP Jr. territory.
Don’t get me wrong, I like Buck, he is an original Royal, after all, his first season in the majors coinciding with the Royals first season of existence. He just didn’t and couldn’t hit.
In his defense, he parlayed his defensive prowess or whatever he had going for him into a 17 year career in the ML. (of course maybe it was his “clutchness” that teams liked, given his lifetime .333 average in the playoffs
)
I thought the TBS crew did a good job last night, for no other resason then becuase they new when to shut up.
When Price struck out JD Drew to end the 8th, I didn’t hear a bunch of yelling from the booth, or some self-serving “boo-yah” junk. They let the action speak, and they added to it only where they thought opening their mouths would add something.
A very refreshing change in today’s Dickie-V broadcast world.
Eric Davis = Most exciting young player I’ve ever seen.
The most impressive ball I’ve ever seen hit in a live game was a foul ball that Davis hit about 10 rows deep into the upper deck of Three Rivers Stadium. I wish I could see a tape of it because maybe it’s been enhanced by memory over the years. I really don’t think I’ve ever seen a ball hit so far so fast.
Nice picture of Oblvious Neutron Bomb, there.
Buck Martinez sounds a little like radio comedian Fred Allen. Maybe if I imagine he’s being sarcastic, his commentary can work. Carey is obviously a guy who’s never watched a game from the bleachers and gets excited over anything hit remotely hard.
Eric Davis found new things to hurt playing hard. Guys who are that talented get punished somehow it seems.
I don’t have a horse in the AL east race over the next 5 years, but I’m not ready to bury the redsox & yankees just yet. The rays look unstoppable now, but a flameout here, and a tommy john surgery there, and they’re an 85 win team.
It’s already been said, but Paul…Darling meant the numbers on their back. Not their stats. Baldelli and DiMaggo both with #5 and all.
As it happens, I think Darling is fantastic. The Met’s whole broadcast team of Gary Cohen, Ron Darling and Keith Hernandez is the best in the business. They can’t be right all the time. You talk about baseball for 162 games, you’re bound to say some stupid things. But they keep it to a minimum and they bring something insightful to the talbe much more often than most. I particularly like the way they usually criticize the sac bunt by anyone other than a pitcher.
And I’ve had the Extra Innings package for years and I didn’t think Darling was that good back when he did the Nats. I think it just took him a season to get comfortable speaking on television.
Vin Scully is still my favorite broadcaster ever (Extra Innings is worth it just to be able to hear him do Dodgers games), but as a team, I think Gary Keith and Ron are the best in the biz.
Marco brings up a good point. While the Rays look like they have a bright future ahead of them, they really have a far smaller margin of error than the big market BoSox and Yanks (not to mention the Jays and O’s).
I’ve had the theme to “Sanford and Son” in my head for the last 30 years but I’ll try “Tom’s Diner” and “Row Your Boat” and see what happens.
Buck Martinez is the O’s color guy. I’m lost in the cornfields all season long.
Tyler, I told you not to mention the O’s.
DJ – that Raines story has a nice tie-in. His baseball-reference.com sponsor is “Amy’s Husband,” and here’s what he wrote:
“Our first baseball game together was Rock’s first game back from the ‘87 collusion – 4 for 5, grand slam in the 10th to beat the Mets. She had a hero for life, and a year later, we were married. He remains her favorite; she remains mine.”
I will accept the multiple defenses of Darling’s comment about Baldelli and DiMaggio’s “numbers”, and will now operate under the assumption that Darling doesn’t really think Baldelli and DiMaggio were comparable. But, in that case, when Caray mentioned those damn fool comparisons, it would have been nice if Darling had taken the opportunity to tell everyone how wrong they were. I don’t think that’s asking too much. All of which leads back to the obvious question….
How the hell did Chip Caray get that job again?
The TBS crew did a better job last night than the night before because they actually broadcast the entire game. I can almost understand technical difficulties beyond their control, but while we were waiting they give us……The Steve Harvey Show???
In addition to Saberhagen being younger than Price when he finished off a game 7, so was Johnny Podres for the mid-1950s Brooklyn Dodgers when he pitched a complete game to beat the Yankees in Game 7. Just another instance of JoePo not letting facts get in the way of what he says, and there are plenty of other examples. He recently wrote about Matt Stairs’ 3-run homer, which was actually a two-run homer. Catcher Bob Didier playing for the 1975 Red Sox, when his career ended in April 1974. The list goes on.
Here’s my take on Buck… you’d think someone whose name is MarTEENez would know how to pronounce OrTEEZ.
On Ron Darling: I also enjoyed him immensely. A nice change after muting Don Orsillo and Jerry Remy all season (I know, that’s New England blasphemy, but what does the Rem-dog add to a broadcast other than phlegmy, Marlboro laughs and occasional oft-repeated cliches? And don’t get me started on Orsillo’s immensely annoying hissing enunciation.)
Hey Ombud, when you start paying for JoeP’s blog, then you can complain about minor, insignificant errors.
Until then, leave the comment section unmolested and go yell at the other kids over at Deadspin.
Wait a second, Stairs hit a 2 run home run, not 3?!?!?!
My God, what good is a blog full of entertainment, humor and insight, written by someone in their spare time without compensation worth, if it is filled with such insidious errors.
I feel betrayed.
JoePo’s errors are showing up on SI.com, where, unless he’s the biggest altruist in the world or the worst businessman ever, he’s getting paid for his efforts. Humor and insight are great, but he’s not so good at getting basic facts right
I’ll put JoePo up against any sportswriter in the country in pretty much any category you want to name, except maybe “Making baseball seem much more elegant and important than it really, truly is, but doing so lovingly and well”, which is Boswell’s until he dies. (“Bred to a Harder Thing Than Triumph” is just one of the many masterpieces.)
As for Saberhagen and Podres, he already addressed that, you nitpicking nattering nitwit. And if the best of the rest you’ve got is calling a 2 run HR a 3 run HR and forgetting the last year of a guy who had a grand total of 751 AB 34 years ago (only getting it wrong by one year), you really, really need a hobby.
You know what you are? You won’t recognize it, you’ll scream that you aren’t. But you’re the “I hate nerds!” version of the stereotype of stats geek. You won’t let yourself actually delve into minutiae that could matter, because that wouldn’t be macho enough. So your OCD has to manifest itself in other ways. Instead of screeching about WARP3 every chance you get (which even those of us who are semi-stats geeks hate), you screech about something irrelevant.
Give into your urges. Go to the dark side. Pick up an Abstract. You know you want to….wouldn’t it be so much more fun?
Just in case anyone needed to hear the Houston Oilers song, it’s here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvWn_yGaA-Y
I beg you for your own good…DO NOT CLICK THE LINK!
Tim Raines: a no-doubt Hall of Famer, and the most exciting young player I’ve ever seen, even over Eric Davis (who would be in my top five, no doubt about it, along with Griffey & A-Rod and Robby Alomar).
A few thoughts from an infrequent commenter and die-hard Sox fan:
- This Rays team is scary. I know, it’s obvious and all, but really – they’re going to be really good for years, unless they suffer multiple catastrophic injuries and breakdowns.
- Paul White: I clearly heard Darling say something about looking at his “number” – note the singular.
– sub-note on Darling – did anyone else notice that Buck’s mispronunciation of Ortiz’ name was contagious? Darling was doing it too, by the end there.
- Corn mazes – if one were to get lost in a corn maze, couldn’t one simply bull one’s way out? I mean, corn stalks aren’t cement.
- Ear worms – don’t fight them, just ride them out. If that fails, think of “Hurdy Gurdy Man” by Donovan – it’s so f*cked up it can’t really stick.
- Mr. Ombud – nobody is forcing you to read this, but if you stopped focusing on the trees long enough to see the forest, you’d recognize one of the best short-form writers working in America today. If you can’t do that, it’s your loss.
I think Ombud is actually Jay Mariotti.
Paul White: Don’t you think Darling WAS poking fun at Caray’s Baldelli/DiMaggio comparison by pointing out the uniform numbers?
Re: Ombud. I understand everyone’s dismay at the tone of the post, but it is just a little silly to get so worked up at someone pointing out legit errors, no?
Bill C., I agree with you on Darling with the Nats. I really was not impressed during his short stay here. I heard Mets fans talking him up the last couple of years and only caught hm once or twice. These playoffs have given me more opportunity and I think he’s better than I remember him being in D.C., but not as good as the hype. Based purely on their careers as Nationals color commentators, I’m inclined to give the nod to Don Sutton.
The ‘53 Braves did have another pitcher, though he wasn’t young that year. He was decent though and had a little to do with the Braves’ success in the 50’s: Warren Spahn.
Well, I’m an older guy and I’ll trump Eric Davis. The most exciting young ballplayer I ever saw (and I was very young myself) was Willie Mays. He was also the most exciting middle of career ballplayer I ever saw and the most exciting older ballplayer I ever saw and . . .
“Paul White: Don’t you think Darling WAS poking fun at Caray’s Baldelli/DiMaggio comparison by pointing out the uniform numbers?”
No, I don’t. It didn’t strike me that way at all.
But even if he was taking a subtle jab, I don’t think it was enough. Caray presented Darling (and Martinez) with a golden opportunity to debunk those erroneous DiMaggio comparisons, which really were prevalant for a while, and Darling chose not to really address them. If he really did think those comparisons were crap, he should have said so more strongly than he did, IMO.
re Squints: Fair point – I would like to make clear that I don’t have aversion to accuracy. As you say, it was more the tone of corrections I found annoying. I think it’s relatively easy to point out errors without sounding unpleasant, but maybe I was being oversensitive.
For me, when I weigh the value of total accuracy in (arguably) minor points against the value of having new posts from Joe on a regular basis, the latter is more worth more to me and it’s not close.
…and I meant to write “an aversion to accuracy.”
This may give away my rather advanced years, but young Eric Davis reminded me of young Cesar Cedeno. Power, speed, unbelievable potential that didn’t last long enough.
“But here’s the thing, as far as I can tell none of those teams had a fourth guy who might end up being the best of the bunch.” In addition to the big 3, the 2002 Oakland A’s also had uber-phenom Rich Harden, if I recall correctly.
It seems like there is like a torch passing ceremony of incredibly exciting center fielders, who somehow didn’t live up to expectations (often due to injuries) back to Pete Reiser in 1941.
I’m sure there are people who qualify prior to Reiser (such as Bug Holliday, who I just learned about thanks to Baseball Reference), but I can’t think of any off the top of my head.
Yeah, Paul, you’re right. Instead Darling should have called Caray a friggin’ idiot for bringing up the comparison and promised to punch him in the nose if he ever did it again.
“We object, Your Honor.”
“Overruled.”
“Your Honor, we strenuously object and ask that the DiMaggio comparison be stricken from the record.”
Something like that, Paul?
“Yeah, Paul, you’re right. Instead Darling should have called Caray a friggin’ idiot for bringing up the comparison and promised to punch him in the nose if he ever did it again.
“We object, Your Honor.â€
“Overruled.â€
“Your Honor, we strenuously object and ask that the DiMaggio comparison be stricken from the record.â€
Something like that, Paul?”
No, Squints, I was thinking more along the lines of:
“You know Chip, those comparisons really were never fair to either Baldelli or DiMaggio. Baldelli was never as good as DiMaggio. That’s not intended as a knock on him, it’s just true. People forget just how great DiMaggio was, even as a rookie, and to ask Rocco to live up to the accomplishments of one of the greatest players ever was probably unfair.”
No need for him (or you) to be a dick about it.
Who cares how old the Rays players are. In a few years we will buy who ever we want. That’s Yankee baseball. We win when we outspend.
Yeah, you’re right, Paul. Darling sucks for not saying that.
I like the Upton-Eric Davis comp. I think it helps to show how good this Devil Rays (too bad, that’s their name, they’re stuck with it) team is to try to compare their young, relatively unknown players to more well-known guys.
With the obvious caveat that these Devil Rays are all young and have a long, long way to go before they end up with the career accomplishments of their comparison players. But I’m trying to get a better picture of these guys by finding comparisons for them as they look right now.
What I’ve come up with so far, hopefully others can find better comps:
BJ Upton: Eric Davis, or maybe Beltran (gliding, talented CF makes it look easy, 7 HRs in the postseason.)
Iwamura: Jim Gantner, LHH 2B, came up as a 3B and moved over, knack for some big hits without great numbers.
Carlos Pena: Fred McGriff. LH first baseman who moved around from team to team and was underrated, but could always hit HRs and walk. McGriff hit for better average and played forever, but Pena’s probably better with the glove.
Longoria: Mike Schmidt. Obviously a long, long way to go, but Longoria is a big scary third baseman who can field, and has a real presence at the plate.
Crawford: somewhere between Claudell Washington and Lou Brock. Brock was amazing in his 30’s, so Crawford probably won’t look much like him then. But for now, I can see it a little bit, with the pure speed and athleticism.
Navarro: Jason Varitek? Not many switch-hitting catchers, and both Varitek and Navarro were hot prospects who got traded. Navarro’s got a better arm, probably less power. He’s still young, so who knows if this comparison would hold up. Maybe Tony Pena would be a better comp?
Jason Bartlett: Royce Clayton. But Bartlett’s better. And I didn’t irrationally hate Clayton. I originally thought of Tim Foli or Chris Speier, but they don’t really fit. Bartlett’s at .276/.337/.361, which is actually disturbingly close to the .267/.322/.357 career line of a shortstop for a certain Big Red team. But Bartlett couldn’t carry that guy’s glove, although he’s not bad rangewise.
Rocco Baldelli: Ellis Burks, only with a strange disease?
Gabe Gross: Jon Lowenstein.
Shields: Black Jack McDowell. Big RHP, solid pitcher with a nickname that makes him seem better than he is.
Kazmir: Jerry Koosman. Just to further tweak Mets fans.
Sonnanstine: Jon Leiber.
Garza: Jack Morris? One bigtime postseason game cemented Morris’s rep. Long way to go here as well.
Maybe you all can come up with more accurate comparisons. But I guess I like doing this because it’s easier to accept my team losing to a team with Eric Davis, Fred McGriff, Mike Schmidt, Lou Brock, Jack Morris, Jerry Koosman and Jack McDowell, instead of all these young guys who are really talented but still play for that team in that stadium.
“Yeah, you’re right, Paul. Darling sucks for not saying that.”
Yeah, you’re right, Squints. That exactly what I said. Any other make believe comments you’d like to attribute to me?
“The Rays really could have FOUR NUMBER ONE STARTERS next year. I gotta be honest with you, I don’t care if the Yankees****** spend a billion jillion shmillion dollars, I don’t care if my friends Bill and Allard create some new scouting-statistical nirvana in Boston. I’m not sure anyone is going to beat a team with four No. 1 starters.”
Forgive me if someone’s already pointed this out, I didn’t read through all the comments. But if we’re ready to proclaim Garza and Price as possible #1s next year, by the same criteria the Red Sox could have up to 5. Beckett/Dice-K/Lester compares favorably to Kazmir/Shields/Garza, Buccholz has a minor league pedigree similar to Price, and there’s a good chance they’ll acquire someone on the order of Peavy, Sabathia, Burnett, or Lowe. Not to be their ace, mind you, but to be their #3 or 4.
Which isn’t to say the Sox will necessarily be better than the Rays. But if anyone’s going to beat a team with four #1 starters, it’s the team with 4 or 5 possible #1 starters that also has a good farm system and a much bigger payroll.
I like the Rays comps quite a bit (although don’t really agree with McGriff/Pena).
That said… I’m not as scared of the Rays going forward as it seems others are. (please note that “others” refers to people I may have made up)
The really frightening thing is their starting pitching, obviously. Now they do have 4 very good to excellent young starters, but the chances are against all 4 of them matching their potential and avoiding injuries. Maybe I’m fooling myself, but I think Shields is a step below Kazmir, Garza and Price based on talent and Garza and Kazmir have shown enough issues with injuries/makeup that their development is certainly not guaranteed. If he avoids injuries, it certainly looks like Price will be quite good.
Offensively I think they have issues(and yes, this is not easy to type after watching them punish the Sox starting pitching for four straight games in the ALCS). Longoria and Upton are great. Past that: Crawford’s certainly good and could take a big step next year (I think it’s his age 28 season), but if he stays what he is (300/350/450) that’s a good player, no more. Pena has had one great year, a good year this year and aside from that has shown himself to be a 240/340/460 player. I’d bet his future is a lot closer to that than it is to his 07 season. Bartlett and RF are offensive negatives, Iwamura’s average at 2b and it’s still unclear what Navarro will become. They don’t have a lot of top level position player prospects (and my sense is that Brignac struggled this year).
Their bullpen, I think, is a fluke. Grant Balfour had a career year and Dan Wheeler gives up too many HRs; it’s unlikely they’ll pitch that well going forward.
The Rays are going to continue to be good and certainly could stay at their 08 level or even take a step forward, but I think they take a step back.
And yes, there is a 64% chance that this is just the wishful thinking of a Red Sox fan.
The Rays are going to be terrifying for years to come. I’ll be stunned if they aren’t. Just think — they can throw some money around and get a better DH. A better right fielder is probably harder to come by, but I just don’t see many holes there to fill.
And their best players won’t reach free agency for, what, 4 years? Except for Longoria — who will be the best of the bunch — whom they’ve signed until he retires.
Face it: we’re all screwed.
The 1971 Astros had Dierker, Wilson, Forsch and a 21-year phenom who made his debut on Sept. 5 and struck out 15 San Francisco Giants. It took him a while to find control, but he eventually became the best of the bunch—partially because Wilson offed himself, Dierker got hurt and the Astros couldn’t decide if Forsch was a starter or reliever. But until he suffered the stroke in 1980, J.R. Richard was one dominant pitcher.
With Marsha from the Brady Bunch currently in the news, I can’t get that song out of my head.
It’s a story, about a man named Brady, ( come on , sing it, you know the words ).
The Brady Bunch, The Brady Bunch.
Gate: I think you bring up a pretty good point in that the Rays, while they’ll be very good, could take a small step back.
I agree that Crawford is somewhat overrated, and the bullpen could well be something of a fluke (if only because good bullpens are frequently flukes). But Longoria will continue to mash, and I think Upton has more power than he’s shown this year. I also think you underrate Carlos Pena. His ‘07 was clearly an outlier, but I don’t think he played too far above his head – if at all – this year. The Rays are not exactly shoo-ins to dominate the AL East for the next five seasons, and I certainly don’t think the Red Sox are going anywhere (the Yankees are a question mark – if their young pitching comes around, they’ll be good, if not, who knows), but they’ll be serious contenders for quite some time.
I think the Rays are going to be around for quite some time, but I’m still not terribly nervous as a Sox fan. That’s not just because I think the Sox will always be in a better position to buy themselves out of trouble (which they are), or will be better able to retain their young talent (which they are), or that they have a deeper farm system (which they do). It’s also because they have the better top-to-bottom talent on the big league roster right now. Just go position by position:
1B – Close, but Youk is younger and more consistent, plus can play solid third base if needed. Advantage – Boston
2B – Clear advantage for Boston
SS – Bartlett may be the Rays MVP, but Lowrie outhit him, is four years younger, and can play three positions. Advantage – Boston
3B – Overwhelming advantage for Tampa
LF – Crawford is a bit younger and is entering his prime, but Bay is a better all around player. Advantage – Boston
CF – Clear advantage for Tampa at the moment, though it will be interesting to see how Ellsbury develops.
RF – Clear advantage for Boston, assuming Drew can stay on the field. If not, all bets are off.
C – Clear advantage to Tampa, as Navarro is young and good, while Varitek looks like he couldn’t hit my fastball at this point.
DH – Even a battered Papi is better than Cliff Floyd. Advantage – Boston
Rotation – I’m going to call this a push. The back end of Tampa’s rotation (call it Price and either Sonnanstine or Jackson) is better than Boston (Buchholz and Wakefield). That could change if the Sox dump Wakefield and/or Buchholz finds his groove again, but as of now the Rays have a clear edge. Conversely, I think the Sox are slightly better at the top. I will still take a healthy Beckett and Lester over Garza and Shields. That leaves Matsuzaka versus Kazmir as the deciding factor, and I can see both sides of that one. Kazmir’s much younger, which is in his favor, but Matsuzaka has been more durable and has a better overall track record once you take Japan into account. Their career ERA+ marks are almost identical. I’ll call that a push.
Bullpen – I don’t see how this can be called anything but a major advantage for the Sox. Papelbon, Okajima, Delcarmen and Masterson are all good and (except for Okajima) young. They’ve also got Michael Bowden waiting in the wings. Except for J.P. Howell, the Rays pen is comprised of older journeymen with no real track record of success, except for Percival, who can’t say on the field. Okay, maybe Wheeler if he’s limited to a setup role, though he’s already 30 and has fluctuated as wildly as most middle relievers throughout his career.
Of course, all of this is as of right now, which won’t really reflect the two teams when the 2009 season opens. I suspect Tampa will sign a bat and trade away an excess arm for another bat, while I suspect the Red Sox will deal for a better backstop and find another solution for their final rotation slot. Regardless, based on just the talent currently on the team, I still think the Sox have a future that’s at least as bright as Tampa’s.
Look out for the 2012 Padres.
Just sayin’, is all.
I think we’re all missing the big issue here, which is how on earth are they going to turn “Moneyball” into a movie?
Hey Joe: According to your post a few days ago, you would move Price to be the Rays closer next year.
I agree with Mike Williams and about 10% of the Royals fans out there: move Soria to the rotation. You know, I drive by the stadium and I don’t see many flags for division or league championships. It is time they make a change. The Rays won the league with great starting pitching and a good young team. Their closer this year was Percival who is about the 12th best closer in the AL. When he was out, Wheeler was their closer-who makes Joe Borowski look like Mo Rivera.
I’m not foolish enough to suggest that Grienke-Soria-Meche would be Zito-Hudson-Mulder but it might be better than you think.
By the way I predicted game 6 right down to final score. But I was way off on my Mizzou prediction, picking the wrong team. Just saying, it is 89% more likely that someone can pick the exact score for a baseball game vs a football game. And I am 40% sure of that.
Phils 5 Rays 3 game 1
With all due respect to Andrew Friedman and the job that he has done down in Tampa Bay, as a Red Sox fan, I am not quite ready to concede the AL East to the Rays for the next 5 years.
Jon Lester put up an ERA+ of 143 in his age 24 season.
Daisuke Matsuzaka put up an ERA+ of 158 in his age 28 season.
Josh Beckett, in a season that was compromised by two stints on the DL, put up an ERA+ of 114 in his age 28 season.
Additionally, Buchholz, Masterson, and Bowden offer the possibility of another young arm to do battle with the vaunted Rays.
The real wildcard, of course is the Sox’ (and Yankees’) ability to make big ticket acquisitions to augment their rosters. So, maybe your buddies Allard and Bill decide that signing Teixeira or Sabathia would put the Sox over the top.
In that case, they rotation could look like:
Sabathia
Beckett
Lester
Matsuzaka
Wakefield/Buchholz/Masterson/Me
or their lineup could look like:
Ellsbury CF
Pedroia 2B
Ortiz DH
Youkilis 3B
Teixeira 1B
Bay LF
Drew RF
Lowrie SS
Varitek C
The Rays are undoubtedly loaded with young cost controlled talent. I guess what I am trying to say is, bring on Spring Training; I miss baseball already.
The Yankees will outbid the Redsucks for CC if he is coming east. Boston has more issues with health than the Rays. Drew, Papi, and Lowell are key pieces, and the bottom of their order still figures to stink. You have to figure that was a career year by Youkilis Cornelius and Dice-K will be a half run a game worse next year given his walk rate and luck on balls in play. Beckett has shown he will not stay in shape. Papelbon’s strikeout rate is coming down. They could be fourth if the breaks go against them, and Toronto and NY fill some holes.