Cleveland Top 40
Posted: October 16th, 2008 | Filed under: Baseball, Cleveland, Pop Culture | 102 Comments »
Like most everyone, I used to love Casey Kasem’s Weekly Top 40. I loved everything about it. I loved that we were listening to Shaggy from Scooby Doo. I loved that before some songs he would tell these bizarre stories (“And when Gabriele was 3 years old, she got her nickname, Nena, which means little girl in Spanish …”) and say absolutely nothing at all before others (“At No. 23 in our countdown this week, here’s Robert Palmer with ”Addicted to Love“). Most of all — and I realize this has become cliche by now — I loved the long distance dedications and, more specifically, how the song never had ANYTHING to do with the actual dedication.
And he writes … Dear Casey.
My name is Tom and I am paralyzed from the waist down. Casey, I was driving alone one evening after putting in several hours of good work at a homeless shelter, when a drunk driver swerved into my lane and sent my car into a ditch. The paramedics arrived quickly on the scene, Casey, but there wasn’t much they could do. When I regained consciousness, I had no feeling at all in my legs. I don’t need to tell you Casey, that I lacked the strength to go on. I didn’t care if I lived or died. And then, Casey, I met … Laura. She was a doctor at the hospital, and she refused to let me give on myself. Casey, in short, she believed in me and through her I believed in me too. Casey, because of Laura and with a lot of hard work, I am, against all odds, beginning to walk again, and now doctors believe I will make a full recovery. And one more thing: Laura and I are very much in love. Casey, it’s a dream come true for me. Casey can you play Quiet Riot’s ”Cum On Feel The Noize“ for my Laura who gave me the courage to continue on.
This Casey Kasem preamble has absolutely nothing to do with this post, where I’m asking you the readers for your help as I play some kind of historical fantasy baseball game. I usually tend to avoid fantasy sports of all kinds, not because I’m opposed to them on any sort of theological grounds but squarely because of Daunte Culpepper. I had avoided fantasy sports for a long time when one year, I got talked into joining a football league with my buddy Chardon Jimmy. We took Daunte Culpepper with a very high pick (second overall, maybe?) and he threw like 29 interceptions in his first game, and I pretty much promised then to never be in a fantasy football league, just like I promised after our last move that we would never move again.
But, the human mind is remarkably resilient, and so we DO move again even though we know it will be a living hell, we do have children even after the exhausting no-sleep experience of having the first, we can move on from Duante Culpepper. Yes we can! In this case, someone named Mike Lynch from Seamheads asked me to be in this historic baseball league. He mentioned that some famous people — Bill James! Mike Vaccaro! Jonah Keri! Curt Schilling! Tom Hanks! Julia Roberts! Barack Obama! Sarah Palin! Dave Eggers! Sam Mellinger! Tom Brady! Some of these people! — would be in the league. At this point I had two conflicting opinions.
1. No way.
2. Absolutely no way.
So, of course I said I would do it, but only if I could get the Cleveland Indians. He said the Indians were already taken. So I was free! Then he came back and said the Indians were not taken, actually, and that I was in the league. So I was not free. That appears to be where we are currently standing.
I have noticed over the last few days that that several other people* in the league have gone to the public to help them choose their 40-man roster … I guess we’re allowed to pick anybody we want in the history of the team (and I guess they are judged SPECIFICALLY what they did for the team) and I thought that was pretty smart, have the readers do some of this work for me. So looking for some help here. Here are some names I have thrown down for the team — you will note a few personal favorites, perhaps.**
*I take this one back … I guess in here Curt is telling people not to ask him to respond or comment upon comments his doctor made. But I’m sure he’s THINKING hard about his 40 man Pittsburgh Pirates roster. You can email him if you would like too.
*I tended to make it so that every day players had to play 400 games in an Indians uniform. I could go with guys like Roberto Alomar, who had three great years, but I’m not sure I want to do that. I suspect I want real Indians. With pitchers, I went with a minimum 750 innings pitched.
First base: Jim Thome, Hal Trosky, Luke Easter, Vic Wertz, Grover the Human Rain Delay, Andre Thornton
Second base: Nap Lajoie, Joe Gordon, Bobby Avila, Robbie Alomar (heck, throw him in), Carlos Baerga, Duane Kuiper
Shortstop: Lou Boudreau, Omar Vizquel, Joe Sewell*, Woodie Held, Julio Generalissimo Franco, Frank Duffy, Jerry Dybzinski, Tommy Veryzer.
Third base: Al Rosen, Ken Keltner, Buddy Bell, Toby Harrah, Graig Nettles (barely an Indian), Brook Jacoby**, Casey Blake.
Corner outffield: Rocky Colavito, Albert Belle, MannyBManny, Joe Carter, Charlie Spikes, Cory Snyder.
Center field (could play corner): Tris Speaker, Larry Doby, Earl Averill, Grady Sizemore, Kenny Lofton, Rick Manning,
Catcher: Jim Hegan, Victor Martinez, Johnny Romano, Sandy Alomar (forgot about him earlier), Duke Sims, Ray Fosse, Joe Azcue (great guy!), Andy Allanson
Starting pitchers (some could work out of pen)
Johnny Allen
Bert Blyleven (kind of an Indian)
Stan Coveleski
Tom Candiotti
Bartolo Colon
Bob Feller
Wes Ferrell
Mike Garcia
Mel Harder
Addie Joss
Cliff Lee
Bob Lemon
Sam McDowell
Gaylord Perry
C.C. Sabathia
Sonny Siebert
Luis Tiant
Early Wynn
Greg Swindell
Late inning guys
Doug Jones
Jim Kern
Sid Monge
Bob Wickman
*I pozterisked this just to mention that, this week, I have my first column in Sports Illustrated the magazine. I originally had Joe Sewell mentioned in that column, but he didn’t make it in and really this was just a cheap way to say: Yay me!
**Brook Jacoby was one of my favorite players … so much so that I would find myself often thinking of how well his name fit in the ”We’re Talking Baseball“ song — ”We’re talkin’ baseball — Brook Jacoby-oby — we’re talkin’ baeball — strands runners in Nairobi.“ Really, sing it! You’ll never get it out of your head.
These are more or less the Indians I am thinking about off the top of my head … I kind of crossed this against a Baseball Reference list so I hope I didn’t miss anybody really obvious.
In any case, now I have to break it down to a Cleveland Top 40, which is how we got to Casey Kasem in the first place. I’m not sure how I should ask for advice … I suppose if you want to simply offer up some thoughts in the comments that would be great or, if you would like to send a more involved thought here, that would be great too. Basically, I’m just looking for you to do the work. And also, that way, I will have someone to blame, long distance. Casey, would you please play Iron Maiden’s ”The Evil That Men Do“ for my loyal readers? Thanks.
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As a lifetime Baltimore Orioles fan, all I have to say is this:
I LOVE Brook Jacoby.
CF Speaker/Sizemore
3B Rosen
LF MannyBManny
1B Thome
RF Belle
2B Baerga
C VMart
SS Boudreau
Yikes. You’re going to do some serious damage with that team, Joe.
NOOOOOOOOOOO… Now I have “We’re talking baseball” stuck in my head and will be singing it under my breath all afternoon during class.
Ah, the worst of my many obsessions (historical fantasy baseball, not the Indians). This isn’t going to be 40, but here are the guys who I think should actually play:
C- Romano, Martinez (Romano starts)
1B- Thome, Thornton (Makes an awesome platoon, since both had pretty hefty splits. Maybe one of the other guys as a late-inning defensive sub)
2B- Nap, Flash (I’d still take Alomar–if he’s not an Indian, what is he? Might have had the two best years of his career there)
3B- Rosen. Bell would make a good defensive sub, though Rosen isn’t awful or anything (Bell was just really great).
SS- Boudreau, Sewell, Franco (Lou starts at all times, and Generalissimo never sees an inning at short, PHing and maybe filling in at first or second)
Corners- MannyB and Joey, with Rocky there to fill in and play some D
CF- Speaker, obvi. Any of the other guys would be a decent backup, probably Lofton then Sizemore.
SP- Feller, Blyleven, Coveleski, um….Sabathia, Ferrell?
RP- Jones (though I guess with a 40 man you need all those guys…ugh)
I don’t know if these guys meet your minimum appearance criteria. Heck, I’m not even sure they were really any good. They’re just guys I thought of who conjured some good memories but weren’t on your list.
Sandy Alomar
Rick Sutcliffe
Miguel Delone
Joe Table
Super Joe Charboneau
Large Lenny Barker
…and in the booth,
Herb Score
And I’d still count Robbie Alomar as an Indian. Maybe he’d never wear that cap in the HOF or anything, but he gave his all when he was in that uniform. Some of my all-time favorite Indians memories were Robbie and Omar working their voodoo in the middle of the infield.
Maybe that’s the criteria you use though, instead of games played. Would that player wear a Tribe cap, if by some bizarre and miraculous series of events, he ended up in the Hall of Fame?
I’ll leave the Indian selections to finer minds than mine, but I do have to tell the one story I can think of that deals both with Casey Kasem AND Indians.
During the 1971 year-end countdown on AT40, Casey told the story about how the song “Indian Reservation”by the Raiders was written because the song’s composer, John Loudermilk, got lost on a North Carolina highway, was kidnapped by Indians and tortured. He only got away because he promised to write a song about the plight of the Native Americans. Pretty impressive stuff, “one of the most incredible stories we’ve ever told”.
Except it never happened. Apparently Loudermilk told that story because an AT40 staffer called him in the middle of the night for information on the song and Loudermilk got really upset. To get back, he came up with the most ridiculous story he could think of and Casey actually read it on the air.
Jonah, did you really just platoon Tris Speaker?
That is a ton of really good outfielders. And I’m with the guys who think Alomar should be on the team, even if he’s on the Toronto team as well. Not that he starts, with Lajoie being there…
I’ve been looking forward to this post ever since reading a couple of the other team intros… and I’ll probably be back later with recommendations.
First of all Joe, I am pretty sure Sam Mellinger would like to trade you a LH starting pitcher for a SS. The Royals have absolutley nothing worthwhile at that position and you got two HOFers and Omar Vizquel. OTOH, until the recent success of Sabathia and Cliff Lee, you cannot find a LH starting pitcher worth spit in the long history of the Cleveland Indians. So would you give up Omar for Charlie Leibrandt or maybe Larry Gura?
My 25 for the Indians would be:
1B: Jim Thome (bonus is that the Indians Jim Thome can play 3B too, as opposed to the White Sox Jim Thome who cannot even play 1B), Trotsky,
2B: Nap, Baerga
3B: Rosen, Keltner
SS: Boudreau, Vizquel, Sewell
C: Jim Hegan, Sandy Alomar (in your haste to exclude his brother for not being “Indian” enough, you forgot about him)
Cf: Lots of good choices, Speaker (I would probably have him manage the team too), Doby
Corner: Belle and Manny for sure, did Joe Jackson not qualify for enough time for the Indians? If not, him, but if so, then Carter
That gives me 16 position players. OK, so I will go over 25 here by a couple.
Feller
Harder
Lemon
Wynn
Coveleski (all righties)
Sabathia
Joss
Perry
Garcia
D. Jones
J. Mesa (might have been intentionally left off by you, but his regular season numbers with the Tribe are really good)
Nah, not platooning Speaker. Just meant Grady should see some PT somehow. And Nap should start over Baerga, on second thought. These are great problems to have!
Brent,
Trotsky could also play a secondary role as the MLBPA representative. (Or revolutionary leader, if you prefer…)
The lack of respect (or maybe recognition) for Romano on here, while not surprising, is sad. He hit like VMart, but unlike VMart, was actually a catcher, not an OOP first baseman. He caught like Alomar, but unlike Alomar, could hit like VMart.
Also, Baerga and Vizquel would be completely outclassed in this league, as would Thome vs. lefties (against righties, of course, he’s frickin’ Lou Gehrig). Gotta be a way to shore up that bullpen–Mesa, definitely. Maybe Plunk and Shuey as your setup guys?
I should add that my familiarity with Romano comes not from some greater overall baseball knowledge, but from playing…way too much…in one (okay, several) of these historical leagues, where he’s quite a valuable commodity…
Bill:
Romano’s career, especially with the Indians, is very short. I guess I would prefer someone whose yearly averages aren’t as good, but sustained it longer for the team
Eric:
Oops about the extra T in Hal’s name. I don’t want my first baseman to get assasinated in Mexico.
I got nothing. Except to say that if you need further inspiration while you formulate your roster, Casey Kasem’s American Top 40 is rerun on XM Radio, Saturdays on the ’70s channel and Sunday on the ’80s.
That is if Sirius hasn’t deep-sixed all the XM music channels yet.
We’re talkin’ baseball
Molitor & Yount
Brewer baseball
Gorman hits ‘em out.
Brent:
“First of all Joe, I am pretty sure Sam Mellinger would like to trade you a LH starting pitcher for a SS. The Royals have absolutley nothing worthwhile at that position”
Why does everyone forget Jay Bell? WHY?
First base: Jim Thome, Hal Trosky, Andre Thornton
Second base: Nap Lajoie, Joe Gordon, Bobby Avila
Shortstop: Lou Boudreau, Omar Vizquel, Joe Sewell*.
Third base: Al Rosen, Ken Keltner, Buddy Bell
Corner outffield: Rocky Colavito, Albert Belle, MannyBManny, Joe Jackson.
Center field (could play corner): Tris Speaker, Larry Doby, Earl Averill, Grady Sizemore, Kenny Lofton
Catcher: Jim Hegan, Victor Martinez, Johnny Romano.
Pitchers: Johnny Allen, Stan Coveleski,Tom Candiotti, Bartolo Colon, Bob Feller, Wes Ferrell, Mike Garcia, Mel Harder, Addie Joss, Bob Lemon, Sam McDowell,Gaylord Perry,C.C. Sabathia, Luis Tiant, Early Wynn, Doug Jones
Last ones cut were Joe Carter and Luke Easter.
Jon:
He played one year for the Royals. Yes, it was a good year, but I just cannot think of him as a “Royal”.
One year of Jay Bell doesn’t erase all the years of Angel Salazar or Neifi Perez or TP Jr. Or even the mediocrity of U.L., Freddie or Gary Gagne (who would probably be my choice for SS for the Royals)
I grew up in Richmond – home of the AAA Braves (well, not anymore). I loved Brook Jacoby, one of my favorite players. Seemed like a nice, guy, he was willing to talk to fans and sign autographs and such.
And then they traded him (and Bret Butler – what they hell were they thinking) to Cleveland for Len Barker. Who stunk. STUNK. Eventually the Braves figured out that it was better to keep guys like Jacoby and Butler, you know, guys who could play.
The Tribe probably has the strongest CF contingent in all of baseball. Speaker and Averill and Doby and Lofton – 1 inner-circle guy, two legit HOF guys, and a HOVG. Plus Sizemore, and he might turn out to be pretty good, too.
Not to mention some kick ass starting pitching. You should have a good team, Joe.
Nats/Expos
C: Kid Carter,
1B: Cat Galarraga,
2B:
3B: Tim Wallach
SS:
Corner OF: Tim Raines, Vlad Guerrero, Larry Walker, Crusty Slob
CF: Andre Dawson, Marquis Grissom
Alou didn’t really blossom until
Whoops, that got messed up, well, whatever
Oh you mean obvious omissions:
Like Rico Carty, Carmen Castillo, Tony Bernazard and Pat Tabler…maybe Brett Butler to bunt his way on
Don’t you have to take Bill Wambsganss just for the name? The unassisted triple play in the 1920 Series is a plus, not to mention the picture of his parents in The Glory of Their Times which has to be the best baseball photo ever. By the way, is the goal here to win or just have fun?
Matt:
Their CFers are very good, but the best? The Bombers have Dimaggio, Mantle, Combs and Bernie. Maybe the Indians are little deeper because #3 and #4 are a little better than the Yankees, but Mantle is a Top 5 player ever. (and since you threw in the beginning of Sizemore’s career, I will throw in the beginning of Bobby Murcer’s career)
Gordon and Boudreau are like love and marriage. Can’t have one without the other and why would you want to. Wes Ferrell just went 22-7 for me in my last league and he hit 7 HR with 7 GWRBI. Obviously you have to have Feller too. You’d have LH pitching if the team hadn’t traded Mossi and Aguirre to the Tigers. At 1B I’d use Luke Easter because my older brother went to Boston on his HS class trip and stayed in the same hotel as the Indians. It was his first experience with a revolving door and he got knocked flat by Luke who was going in the other direction. If nothing else, Luke could platoon with Thome. The other two starters should be Coveleski and Wynn (in case his granny is playing for the other team) and Gaylord and Sudden Sam can be used in long relief/spot starter roles. Bell plays 3B with Doby, Speaker and Colavito in the OF.
Obviously the Yankees would be favored in this league, but wouldn’t the sleeper AL team be the A’s (provided you got all their players, including the Philly ones? (No need to include any KC A’s, none would make the team)) I mean, all time, they have a losing record, they have fielded some atrocious teams (post 1935, all the teams in KC, and the period between Charlie O. stripping the team and Billy Ball coming), but, after the Yankees, they have the most pennants and WS victories of any AL team. And they have a boatload of HOFers, including arguably the greatest 2Bman ever, one of the top 1Bman ever and more than likely the greatest LH pitcher ever. Oh, and the greatest leadoff hitter ever too.
First base: Jim Thome, Hal Trosky, Andre Thornton
Second base: Nap Lajoie, Joe Gordon, Robbie Alomar
Shortstop: Lou Boudreau, Omar Vizquel, Joe Sewell*
Third base: Al Rosen, Ken Keltner, Buddy Bell,
Corner outffield: Rocky Colavito, Albert Belle, MannyBManny, Joe Carter
Center field (could play corner): Tris Speaker, Larry Doby, Earl Averill, Kenny Lofton
Catcher: Steve O’Neill, Joe Azcue, Sandy Alomar
Starting pitchers (some could work out of pen)
Bert Blyleven (kind of an Indian)
Stan Coveleski
Bartolo Colon
Bob Feller
Wes Ferrell
Mike Garcia
Mel Harder
Addie Joss
Cliff Lee
Bob Lemon
Sam McDowell
Gaylord Perry
C.C. Sabathia
Sonny Siebert
Luis Tiant
Early Wynn
Doug Jones
I love how a permanently downtrodden team like the Indians can put together a pretty good all-time team. It’s one of those quirks of sports. ESPN did one of those dumb all-time team tournaments for college basketball, and LSU made the Final Four despite having never won an actual title since the birth of the tournament. Having three Hall of Famers (Shaq, Petit, Pistol) and one of the most prolific college scorers (Jackson) didn’t hurt.
Just because you haven’t seen many titles in Cleveland does not mean you have not seen some great players.
Brent,
Yes, the Yanks have Mantle and DiMaggio, and I have to confess that I momentarily forgot about them. But… honestly, I think Speaker was a better player than either Mantle or DiMaggio. Now, that’s taking his whole career, not just the Indians, into account. And Mickey and Joe played exclusively for the Bombers, so they’ve got that.
I think Doby and Averill line up well against Bernie and Combs, and Lofton is better than Murcer. Its close, but taking whole career, its the Indians. With just the team in question, you’re probably right, its the Yanks.
Hmmm. I’m guessing defense doesn’t matter, right? (Just asking, I have no idea how hardcore your league is.)
1B : Thome
2B : Nap Lajoie
SS : Lou Boudreau
3B : Al Rosen
C : I’m torn between Alomar and Martinez.
CF : Tris Speaker
L/RF: Manny, Albert Belle.
SP : Blyleven. Bob Feller. Luis Tiant. Early Wynn (awesome in his Cleveland years). And I guess I’d say Gaylord Perry, though he really didn’t pitch in Cleveland all that long.
Late Inning Guys : Yeah you’re screwed. Fortunately the starting pitchers I put up tended to go lots of innings.
Stepbaker: I don’t know that I’d call the Indians permanently downtrodden. They had that one constantly downtrodden period from about 1960 to 1993, but outside of that, they’ve generally been pretty competitive.
And yes, I obviously completely missed the point that you need a 40 man roster. Anyways, these guys should be playing all the time. I doubt injuries are a problem in a league with guys who are already dead, right?
Regarding the bullpen, since the Tribe doesn’t have much of a history of great relievers, I’d convert Sudden Sam McDowell to the pen. Just too good an arm to leave off the staff, and a wicked lefty compliment to another ridiculous arm, like Jim Kern. Throw in Doug Jones, a polished guy like Gary Bell, who was a much better reliever than starter, and then make your sixth and seventh starters long relievers and call it good.
I had no idea that Casey Kasem was the voice of Shaggy.
Matt:
Well, I would rank them as: 1) Mantle, 2) Speaker, 3) Dimaggio, then pretty big fall off, then 4) Larry Doby, 5) Earl Averill 6) Bernie Williams 7) Earle Combs
Kenny Lofton. Mantle’s OPS+ for his career is much higher than Speaker’s, but I know that Speaker was rated as an incredible defensive player (hard for me to judge that, seeing as I, as well as most of the living world, never saw him play.
This discussion reminds me of another fun thing to do. Figure out which team is the best all time at each position. CF is an interesting debate between the Yankees and Indians. LF is a no-brainer: Red Sox (Duffy Lewis, Babe, Williams, Yaz, Rice, Manny). RF could either be the Pirates (P. Waner, Clemente, Parker) or Tigers (Cobb, Crawford, Heilmann, Kaline, Gibson).
I think I’d go with Dave Justice over Joe Carter. Carter’s OBP is really low.
props on the shout out to iron maiden, Joe
OK, I overstate, but the Indians haven’t won a World Series since 1948. That’s a long time. The Indians are above .500 in their history, but from 1960-1993, the Indians never even finished second. Maybe it just felt permanent. The point holds, though. Despite not winning titles by the bushel like the Yankees, the Indians still have had a lot of truly great players. I think that’s really cool.
Even though he was (mostly) a starter during his days in Cleveland, Dennis Eckersley could come out of the pen. He DID have 3 saves playing for the Tribe. At least Rick Manning wouldn’t make the team and steal his wife…
Joe Jackson had some great years with Cleveland – is he banned from this league?
I think Mantle was better than Speaker too. It’s close though.
The Natspos would have some real holes after 40 years –
C: Gary Carter, Darrin Fletcher, Mike Fitzgerald (I don’t know that he’s better than Schneider or Foote)
1B: Andres the Cat, Ron Fairly, Tony Perez, Nick Johnson
2B: Jose Vidro, Delino DeShields, Mike Lansing
3B: Tim Wallach, Bob Bailey, Ryan Zimmerman
SS: Orlando Cabrera, Hubie Brooks, Wil Cordero
Corner OF: Tim Raines, Vlad Guerrero, Rondell White, Ellis Valentine, Crusty Slob
CF: Andre Dawson, Otis Nixon, Marquis Grissom
SP: Pedro Martinez, Steve Rogers, Dennis Martinez, Jeff Fassero, Javier Vazquez, Charlie Lea, Ken Hill, Scott Sanderson
RP: Jeff Reardon, Mike Marshall, John Wetteland, Mel Rojas, Ugeth Urbina, Chad Cordero, Dan Schatzeder, Tim Burke
As far as I’m concerned … you can’t lose with the Dybber on your squad!
How about Narleski as another late-inning guy … wasnt with the team real long … but was fairly solid.
Brent,
Two things edge Speaker over Mantle for me. First, the defense. I don’t think Mantle was bad, necessarily, but he wrecked his knees pretty early on. Speaker, on the other hand, was by all accounts one of the two or three best (Mays, Flood, maybe Andruw Jones) defensive CF ever. Even if you discount Speaker’s D a little because we can’t be sure (which I understand), it still has to be MUCH better than Mantle’s.
Second, career length. Yes, Mantle’s OPS+ is 15 points higher, but in a career more than 2000 PA’s shorter. Do you want a 158 in nearly 12000 PA’s, or a 172 in nearly 10000 PA’s?
Its close, and having Mantle higher is certainly reasonable. I just like Speaker better. Mostly the D.
Matt:
In the context of the Indians, certainly Speaker’s D is going to be needed in CF, as it appears the consensus is that Manny will be in RF and Albert B. in LF. He will have a lot of ground to cover!!!!!
Where’s Duane Kuiper on this team????
Mad props on the inclusion of Iron Maiden in the post, that was awesome (as are they).
My Royals cannot compete with the 100 year teams, but I think they do OK against the fellow expansionites
1B: Mayberry, Sweeney, Aikens
2B: White, Rojas, Grudz
3B: Brett, Randa, Seitzer
SS: Gagne, Patek, Washington
C: McFarlane, Porter, Wathan
CF: Beltran, Otis, Wilson (easily our best position)
Corner: H. McRae (we will pretend this is before he blew out his rotator cuff and he could actually still throw the ball), Bo, Dye, Damon, Pinella, and Cowens
Starters: Leonard, Appier, Saberhagen, Splitt, Leibrandt, Gura, Gubicza, Cone, Danny Jackson, Busby
Relievers: Quiz, Monty, Soria, Mingori, Bird, Farr
So if you allow me a DH, I probably platoon Mayberry and Sweeney at 1B and McFarlane and Porter at C and throw out this lineup against righties:
Wilson LF
McRae DH
Brett 3B
Mayberry 1B
Beltran CF
Dye RF
Porter C
White 2B
Patek SS
And this one against left handers:
Otis LF
Beltran CF
Brett 3B
Sweeney 1B
McRae DH
Dye RF
McFarlane C
White 2B
Patek SS
Play me at Royals Stadium with the fences in their original positions and artificial turf and I have a good chance at winning.
Too bad Maris and Powell don’t make the minimum games played. They passed thru CLE at opposite ends of their careers. Maris has his partisans for the HoF but his offensive numbers were actually a little worse than Powell’s. Maris had more defensive value, Powell had a longer career. Maris had 2 MVPs, Powell had 1 plus a 2nd and a 3rd. Maris had top 3 seasons of 167 OPS+, 161, and 145. Boog had 176, 163, 160, 158, and 154 (last one in CLE).
Sorry, totally off track – maybe they should go with Alomar on the top players who passed thru.
Where does Ray Fosse rate in the history of Cleveland catchers, if not for being run over in an exhibition game? I realize that was his breakout year, and of course we can’t really know what would have come without that, but was he as good as my memory says he was? Better than Martinez, Alomar et al?
Oh and Bellylard, forget Fitzgerald as the #3 catcher in the Naspos line-up and put in John Boccabella, just for the way he was announced over the PA. And these additions to your list
1B Al Oliver
2B Tim Raines (well he was supposed to play there! and did a short time)
3B Larry Parrish
Corners – Warren Cromartie, Larry Walker, Moises Alou, Cliff Floyd
SP – Bill Stoneman, Bill Gullickson, David Palmer
RP – Woodie Fryman
And apparently LHDH/PH – Matt Stairs
sweet mention of the eck and manning snatching his snatch away. I’d have to say that if you’re going to consider Doug Jones and the Wicky, you have to mention Joe Table – Jose Mesa, it would at least add some interesting pre-game ping pong matches between he and omar as they dual for supremacy over the cd player in the clubhouse.
You could avoid the Chief Wahoo business by calling the team the Cleveland Naps.
Here’s a lineup of players who played 51% of their time with Cleveland, and their best years:
Tris Speaker, cf (1920)
Lou Boudreau, ss (1948)
Joe Jackson, lf (1911)
Nap Lajoie, 2b (1904)
Earl Averill, rf (1936)
Al Rosen, 3b (1953)
Jim Thome, 1b (2002)
Victor Martinez, c (2007)
with Albert Belle as dh, if allowed (1995)
reserves for a 26-man team: Joe Sewell (1923), Omar Vizquel (1999), Julio Franco (1987), Larry Doby (1950), Kenny Lofton (1996), Steve O’Neill (1920), Jim Hegan (1948).
Pitchers: Bob Feller (1946), Addie Joss (1908), Bob Lemon (1952), Stan Covaleski (1917), Sam McDowell (1965), Mel Harder (1934), Early Wynn (1954), Mike Garcia (also 1954), George Uhle (1926), Herb Score (1956).
Okay, we need 14 more. Hal Trosky, 1b (1936). Bobby Avila, 2b (1954). Terry Turner, 3b etc. (1906). Ray Chapman, ss (1917). Sandy Alomar, Jr., c (1997). Elmer Flick (1906) and Rocky Colavito (1958), of. Woodie Held, the only man ever to play 100 games at six different positions (including all three of).
Pitchers Jim Bagby, Sr. (1917), Wes Ferrell (1930), Don Mossi (1954), Ray Narleski (1956), Jose Mesa (1995). #40, Leroy Paige (1948), who did not play 51% of anything in Cleveland.
OK i went to college with Miguel Jimenez, who pitched briefly for the A’s in the mid-90’s… We played in a Strat-O-Matic league together and for some reason he preferred to pronounce Brook Jacoby as “JAC-o-bee” instead of “jah-COH-bee”. So I always pronounce it JAC-o-bee…
Cromartie hit well enough for the 40 cut as I felt I needed to keep up roster percentages. Parrish probably deserves to be there more than Zimmerman, but I had a hard time finding Nats to put in there, honestly; my interest in this team begins with 2005 essentially. Walker was an omission mostly because I just wanted to write Crusty Slob. I had some of those pitchers to initially, but they just didn’t end up looking good enough overall and were pushed off; I remember Gullickson and Fryman well, but other pitchers seemed better in their Canadian stints.
That would be didn’t hit well enough.. but who really cares.
C, Sandy Alomar
1B, Jim Thome
2B, Nap Lajoie
3B, Al Rosen
SS, Lou Boudreau
LF, Joe Jackson
CF, Tris Speaker
RF, Elmer Flick
SP, Bob Feller
SP, Addie Joss
SP, Bob Lemon
SP, Luis Tiant
SP, Early Wynn
C, Victor Martinez
2B, Joe Gordon
2B, Roberto Alomar
3B, Graig Nettles
SS, Joe Sewell
LF, Manny Ramirez
LF, Albert Belle
CF, Larry Doby
RF, Rocky Colavito
P, Sam McDowell
P, Bartolo Colon
P, C.C. Sabathia
dave in toledo, why averill over flick, colavito and doby in rf?
also,
i can’t think of anyone who’ll be better than the all-time Giants…
Bellylard – contrary to popular opinion, there were people who cared (and still do) enough in Montreal. But seeing the likes of most everyone of those guys leave for greener pastures, not to mention the ‘94 strike, kind of sounded the death knell. One hopes that the Royals, A’s, Twins and their “small market” ilk don’t follow the same path.
Oh and Rusty was tremendous as the face of that franchise.
going 2-deep:
1B: thome, trosky
2B: lajoie, alomar
SS: boudreau, vizquel
3B: rosen, keltner
LF: belle, joe jackson
CF: speaker, sizemore
RF: ramirez, colavito
C: martinez, romano
SP (10): young, feller, blyleven, tiant, perry, lemon, harder, joss, wynn, sabathia
RP (14): eckersley, kern, narleski, coveleski, garcia, wickman, mesa, jones, allen, ferrell, mcdowell, colon, mossi, satchell paige
admittedly the relievers included starters, but those were starters who weren’t making the top 10 and could or did pitch out of the bullpen at one point.
Broocks, I think you’re right about the Giants.
I dunno about Averill. I probably overvalued his 1930’s numbers. Flick has two seasons of OPS+ higher than Averill’s 1936. It’s my stupid that “Elmer Flick” doesn’t resonate strength, and I never got to see him play. . . . Well, I never saw Averill, either. Colavito and Doby, yes I did.
This link to baseball-reference lists great seasons by CI hitters:
http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/VQfh
Grady Sizemore actually plays against the world’s best players. Tris Speaker played against white guys who were primarily from east of the Mississippi. I’ll take Sizemore and anybody else who actually played against the full talent pool instead of a segregated one.
Inspired by Bellyard, I wanted to put together a true D.C. baseball team. So by using the former parts of the Twins and Rangers and the current team I came up with:
The All Washington Team
C: Muddy Ruel, Rick Ferrell
1B: Mickey Vernon, Joe Judge
2B: Buddy Meyer, Bucky Harris
SS: Eddie Yost,Buddy Lewis
3B: Joe Cronin, Ryan Zimmerman
LF: Goose Goslin, Frank Howard, Roy Sievers
RF: Sam Rice, Heine Manus
CF: Clyde Milan, John Stone
SP: Water Johnson, Dutch Leonard, George Mogridge, Early Wynn, Firpo Marberry
RP: Ron Kline, Chad Cordero, Doc Ayers, Sam Jones, Camilo Pascual
I actually played in a simulation league with the historical Tribe, although I’m neither from cleveland nor a Tribe fan. I used Romano as my C, Lajoie seems obvious at 2B and Joe Jackosn in LF. Manny did not play LF in Cleveland, by the way, not even once (thank baseball-reference.com), so let’s consider him in RF, folks.
The Indians seem to have more great RHS than any team I can think of — you coul deasily fill two or three rotations, but have ben soft from the left side until recently.
In the spirit of other teams, and in particular expansion teams, let me offer my NY Mets:
C – Piazza
1B – Hernandez
2B – Edgardo Alfonso
SS – Reyes, if not now, soon
3B – Wright – already by a nose over HoJo becaus eof glove
LF – I’m shocked, but I think the answer is Kevin McReynolds
CF – Beltran probably, certainly if he finishes his contract
RF – Darryl
SP – Seaver
SP – Koosman
SP – Sid Fernandez (need an injury replacement though)
SP – Leiter
SP – ??
RP – McGraw or Orosco or Franco or Myers — I think the Mets may have the all time Left Handed Closer spot locked up…
In terms of outfielders, what happened to George Hendrick? Much better than many listed and his tribe tenure had to be as long as Cory Snyders? Not enough games? Same with Daddywags?
I’d thought that the Twins might have a similar problem to the Royals, until I remembered that no other team has a better claim on the pre-expansion Senators:
C – Joe Mauer, Earl Battey
1B – Harmon Killebrew, Kent Hrbek
2B – Chuck Knoblauch, Rod Carew
3B – Corey Koskie, Gary Gaetti
SS – Greg Gagne, Joe Cronin
Corner outfield – Tony Oliva, Shane Mack, Larry Hisle
Center Field – Kirby Puckett
Starting Pitchers – Walter Johnson, Bert Blyleven, Jim Kaat, Johan Santana, Camilo Pascual
Closer – Joe Nathan
Other Relievers – Doug Corbett, Firpo Marberry, Rick Aguilera
Sorry, but Greg Gagne does not get to be a Royal in this league — Zoilo Versailles had one great year, which isn’t anywhere near enough to make him a pick for this kind of league.
You could argue Knoblauch as a Yankee, but his best years were as a Twin. You could argue Carew as an Angel, but as a first-baseman, not a second-baseman. Shane Mack was outstanding in his years as a Twin, not so much elsewhere.
I think this club could compete. It’d certainly be a club Ron Gardenhire would feel comfortable managing.
Who was the player who said something like:
“The only thing good about playing for the Indians is you don’t have to play Cleveland on the road.”
And has anyone ever noticed that “Cleveland Street,” regardless of where in America it is, is always in the bad part of town? Why is that?
I saw one comment that put Colavito as a starter…are you kidding me? With the Indians, and even peak value, I say Albert Jojuan Belle is a top 5 RH batter all-time. If the 1994 season could have miraculously finished, his ‘94 would have been among the best all-time. If you doubt me, go neutralize it on BR. Belle HAS to play. Even if you have to stick him in LF, it’s more than worth it. Also, completely unrelated…how can the all-time team be so good when they haven’t won a WS in like a million years? I mean, they had MbM, Thome, Belle, Lofton, Vizquel, and Baerga ALL AT THE SAME TIME! Shouldn’t anyone with access to a Bill James book be able to assemble a pitching staff capable enough to win ONE WS?! Unbelievable!
I’ll endorse Bellylard’s roster up there, although I’d replace Avila with Alomar. He was just unbelievable with the Indians.
I have many things to say about Casey’s Long Distance Dedications. I’ll hold it at one – he did a dedication for a woman who really missed her man, and wanted to hear “Missing You”. By context I thought it was clear she meant Diana Ross’ song by that name. What was played? John Waite’s song by that name, whose main line is “I ain’t missing you at all”.
The prospective Blue Jays roster is posted too.
An impressive list, you included some names that would only come to the mind of a true Indians fan. However, I believe that there is one critical ommission. In 1990, when the indians were still struggling away in Municipal Stadium, a 23 year-old rookie debuted for the tribe. The following year, this starter got his first full taste of big league action and as an indication of what was to come, he earned neary 1/5 of the Indians wins in a dismal season in which the team lost 105 games. The following year he went 17-10 with a 2.96 ERA, a pitched 252 innings for the tribe. Statistics aside, he continued to be a cornerstone of the rotation throughout the 90s and helped usher in Jacobs Field and the club’s resurgence. He loved Cleveland, remained loyal to the club since the day he was drafted in 1988, remained an Indian throughout his 12-year career (except 12 IP for the Padres), and helped propel the Tribe to the playoffs for years. I believe Charles Nagy should be on this list.
Monkeyhawk,
St. Paul has a perfectly respectable Cleveland Avenue.
The Cleveland roster could be improved by extending it back to the Spiders of the 1890s– Cy Young, Jesse Burkett, Oliver Tebeau.
The only glaring ommissions I see are Rick Vaughn at SP, Pedro Cerrano at corner OF, and Willie Mays Hays at CF
You guys are joking about the Giants right?
Here is the Yankees starting lineup:
Jeter SS
Mick LF
Babe RF
ARod 3B
Lou 1B
Dimaggio CF
Berra C
Gordon or Lazzeri 2B
If I get a DH, I’ll take Reggie. That’s a starting lineup of 1st ballot HOFers, except at 2B. Sure, the Giants starting pitching is better, but who is their SS? Who is their 2Bman?
And if the Yankees have the lead in the 6th inning, they can finish the game with Mariano, Goose, Sparky, Rags and Allie Reynolds, in no particular order.
David Wintheiser,
How does Carew not start in front of Knoblauch? Let me rephrase that: Carew starts in front of Knoblauch.
Also, I loved Shane Mack, and Hisle was pretty good in his 4 1/2 years with the Twins, but how about Goose Goslin, Roy Sievers, Bob Allison? Mack is a good fourth or fifth outfielder–could spell Kirby in center (though Torii probably has a better claim to that spot).
Cronin would probably belong to the Red Sox, but Cecil Travis and Roy Smalley would also be better picks than Gagne. Versailles vs. Gagne looks like a toss-up to me.
The Yanks staff would be hell on lefties with Ford, Guidry, Lopez and Pennock starting, perhaps Lyle and Righetti in the pen.
Crap, I meant Gomez, not Lopez, this typing thing seems beyond me today.
And Andy Pettitte too.
So here is what I see for the Giants starting lineup, and don’t get me wrong, it is good, just not Yankees good.
1B: Stretch
2B: Fordham Flash
3B: Matt Williams
SS: Travis Jackson
C: Buck Ewing (no offense to Buck, but if you got to reach back to 1885 to find your best catcher, I don’t think he matches up with Yogi or even Posada)
CF: The Say Hey Kid
LF: Barroid
RF: Mel Ott.
Now that is a good lineup, mostly HOFers, but not in the league with the Bronx Bombers. Mathewson and Marichal gives them an advantage in RH starting pitching, but as noted, the Yankees pen is kick ass and their LH starting pitching is probably the best of all time (or maybe the A’s)
David and Bill:
If you are going to include the Senators, I think Sam Rice has to be considered for the outfield too. And what about The Walking Man at third? Just his annoyance value to opposing pitchers would make him more valuable than Koskie, I would think.
And Cronin had almost 5000 ABs with the Senators. I think he qualifies as a Senator and a Red Sox.
Here’s a methodology question. Can a player be on more than one 40-man roster? That is, can Reggie Jackson play for both the A’s and for the Yankees? Manny Ramirez be both an Indian and a Red Sock?
IMO, a player can go only to the team for which he played most of his games, or had most of his at-bats, or for which he compiled most of his win shares, or some such preference.
I’ll admit that the lineup is no Yankees. I have Larry Doyle at 2B (although Frisch is probably just as good) Roger Bresnahan at C, George Davis at SS. Further, Mize, Clark and Connor are all 1B, and Darrel Evans can play 3B.
Even though the Giants don’t have the Yankees lineup, their pitching is amazing. The Yankees can’t compete with that.
Christy Matthewson, Juan Marichal, Carl Hubbell, Amos Rusie, Gaylord Perry, Joe McGinnity, Tim Keefe
Matthewson, Hubbell and Rusie are probably top-20 all time. Perry top-25. McGinnity and Keefe top-50.
I acknowledge the Giants have a great pitching staff, though I am a bit skeptical of McGinnity, Rusie and Keefe, given their 19th century pedigrees.
Here’s the team I think could challenge the Yankees and not one people would think about first off:
1B: Jimmy Foxx, Mark McGwire
2B: Eddie Collins, Max Bishop
3B: Home Run Baker, Sal Bando
SS: Eddie Joost, Campy
C: Mickey Cochrane, Gino Tenace
CF: Weakest position for them, but I will stick Al Simmons at his original position and back him up with Mule Haas
Corner: Rickey, Reggie, Danny Murphy, Joe Rudi
LH Starters: Plank, Waddell, Grove
RH Starters: Catfish, Chief Bender
Bullpen: Eck, Rollie, Lindblad
Lineup
Rickey LF
Collins 2B
Reggie RF
Foxx 1B
Cochrane C
Simmons CF
Baker 3B
Joost SS
Grove P
you have problems with 19th century pitchers and then you chose Waddell, Plank and Bender?
ive thought about the a’s before, but i just don’t think they are anywhere close to the giants or yankees. i think the a’s lineup is similar to the giants but their pitching doesn’t come close.
Giambi and Tejada could help out that A’s team – not sure Tejada wouldn’t start at short, actually. I’d put Canseco on there as well, over Rudi.
Cubs, somewhat off the top of my head:
C: Hartnett… Kling? King Kelly if I can get away with it.
1B: Anson, Grace
2B: Sandberg, Herman, Evers, Hornsby
3B: Santo, Hack
SS: Banks, Tinker (defensive replacement only)
CF: Hack Wilson… George Gore as a backup?
LRF: Sosa, Williams, Sheckard, Cuyler… Swish Nicholson if there’s room on the roster.
Pitchers: Jenkins, Maddux, Brown, Alexander, Warneke, Reulbach, Reuschel, Zambrano. If the Giants can use 19th century guys, add John Clarkson. Hippo Vaughan and Ken Holtzman for lefties. Smith, Sutter, and Wood in the pen.
Let’s see, that’s 34… add Overall from the early Cubs, Root from the ’20s. Heck, throw Carlos Marmol into the pen. Position players… add in Aramis Ramirez, I suppose. Maybe Woody English as a utility man. Put Al Spalding in the last spot, unless that’s too much of a stretch… in which case I suppose I’ll take Jack Pfeister instead.
Lineup:
3B Santo
2B Hornsby (depending on how his defense is rated, Sandberg might be the better pick; if so, I’d hit Wilson here, move everyone else up, and put Ryno 8th)
1B Anson
RF Sosa
CF Wilson
SS Banks
LF Williams
C Hartnett
That’s not that impressive, honestly. The bench is mediocre (at least for these purposes) outside of second base, and the lineup doesn’t totally blow you away… and the pitching staff isn’t all that special, either. Probably in the bottom half of the original 16.
I’ve read most of these posts, but I still haven’t figured out how a HISTORICAL fantasy league would work. Where can I find an explanation?
Fezzik – it’s probably a simulation. Take all the players, normalize their numbers to some context (likely a modern one), and simulate a season. Or a bunch of seasons.
Fezzik, I am sure it’s a simulation. Diamond Mind, Tom Tippett’s site, is probably the best known one. The first one, of course, was Bill James Winter Game (later Bill James Classic Baseball), which was in partnership with STATS and has been retired but also used Tippett’s simulation engine to run the game.
How’s the league set up? Is it a standard 5×5, or a league where fielding matters?
And how do I join? I’m very important people, you know.
Joe,
that casey kasem story was anything but ponderous.
1B: Eddie Murray, or too much an Oriole, not enough years in Cleveland?
And I second Ethan’s nomination of Charlie Nagy. One of my law school classmates (CWRU ‘01, TYVM) called Nagy “my personal hero.” And he was a veteran. If this were a fan favorites of the last 20 (30?) years, Nagy would top the list. Cy Young was great, I guess, but I never saw him pitch, and neither did my grandparents, for goodness sake.
This is why I suck at fantasy baseball.
Wiiiilllie…Mickey and the Duke. Talkin’ Baseball is fantastic.
Wow, you guys have trouble coming up with a “best ever” Cleveland team. This is easy for most other teams (expansion teams excluded). You already handicapped yourself Joe. I guess I’m just spoiled with my hometown red sox. And how dare you claim Louie Tiant?!
LF Ted Williams, Carl Yastremski, Manny Ramirez, Jim Rice, Mike Greenwell
CF Dom Dimaggio, Ellis Burks, Johnny Damon,
RF Dwight Evans, Johnny Pesky (?)
1B Big Papi (screw DH), Jimmie Foxx
2nd Bobby Doerr, Pedroia, Jody Reed
3rd Wade Boggs, Carney Landsford (a stetch)
SS Garciaparra, (um maybe this is harder than I thought)
C Carlton Fisk
P Cy Young, Pedro Martinez, Babe Ruth, Roger Clemens, Beckett
I guess this is harder than I thought but I wrote this list with no research and off the top of my head so I think your Indians are at a disadvantage.
Question: Is there a DH in this leageu?
Another caveat: I was born in ‘77 so forgive me if I can’t remeber who was great in the ’60’s.
Two things:
it was a thrill to come home from work way after midnight Thursday night, start reading the new SI and read this terrific piece right at the front and think, man , this is a good piece, who wrote this? and then see JOE POSNANSKI at the end. Woo-hoooooo!!!! good for you!
Thing number two: In the late 70’s my wife saw a Cleveland-Boston game at Fenway, and decided that Frank Duffy was her all time favorite player. Based on cuteness (her opinion). So, he’s gotta be on there, right?
I’m not very happy right now. Start my weekend with a cup of coffee and some good reading and I get stuck with the lines, “C’mon feel the noise, girls rock your boys, we’ll get wild, wild, wild” stuck in my head for goodness knows how long.
I think any 40 man roster of the Tribe has to include Ernie Camacho, doesn’t it? I mean there are still 39 other spots for some of the best players in major league history.
Are you really going to leave Ernie “Macho” Camacho out of the discussion completely? That’s bad karma, man.
I know that he fails to reach your qualifying threshold but I was a little surprised that their was not one mentioning of the greatest left hander in Indians history, Herb Score.
For the two years he pitched before Gil McDougald hit the unfortunate bullet of a line drive that hit Score squarely in the eye, Score was the best southpaw in baseball…..arguably the best pitcher period.
As a very young white sox fan in remorseful sorrow over the trading of my beloved Chico Carrasquel to allow for some unheralded, no name rookie named Aparicio to take over at short, I followed those indian teams closely and Score was phenomenal. He replaced a declining Spahn before the emergence of a young Koufax and was, no doubt, the best.
Wintheiser,
I would put the Killer at third and that would allow you to put Hrbek and Justin Morneau at first base.
Carew has to start at second, its not even close. All of his batting titles were as a Twin. The Angels have no claim here.
Any all-time list of relievers for Twins has to include Everyday Eddie.
As for OFs, Bob Allison, Torii Hunter, and Tom Brunansky are 3rd, 7th, and 9th respectively in career homers as a Twin, so they should be listed somewhere.
As for starting pitchers, you can’t forget Brad Radke, especially after all he did in 2006, and Frank Viola, who started and won more games for the Twins than Johan (as well as won a Cy Young Award before being traded to the Mets.)
You list all the guys as pitchers and don’t have Charles Nagy on the list? He’s got to be on the list to begin the discussion at minimum.
B-Man:
We’re having trouble because the Indians have so many great players in their history. Unless you think a lineup with Speaker, Lajoie, Boudreau, Ramirez, Belle, Thome and etc. is bad?
Also, I echo the Herb Score and Charlie Nagy inclusions. Score was flat-out nasty before he got plunked with a line drive and Nagy was a horse for all those great 90s Indians teams.
B-Man, actually, I think the Indians team mops up the Boston team. And you can have Man-Ram because Shoeless Joe and Belle can play our corners.
Aaron- you’re right, its amazing the Indians didn’t win a title in the 90’s. Although, I’ve seen many lists putting the 95 team as one of the greatest of all time, even with the World Series loss. I mean, this was their lineup:
Lofton, CF
Vizquel, SS
Baerga, 2B
Belle, LF
Murray, DH
Thome, 3B
Ramirez, RF
Sorrento, 1B
Alomar, C
That’s right, Manny hit 7th on that team. His OPS was .960 and he hit 7th!