Comments on: Bartlett (equals) Skippy http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/23/bartlett-equals-skippy/ Curiously Long Posts Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:41:51 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: DoughStreet.com - A Blog About Everything » ALCS Game One Live Blog: Red Sox Vs. Rays [Rays Vs. Red Sox] http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/23/bartlett-equals-skippy/#comment-35627 DoughStreet.com - A Blog About Everything » ALCS Game One Live Blog: Red Sox Vs. Rays [Rays Vs. Red Sox] Sat, 11 Oct 2008 17:02:42 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/23/bartlett-equals-skippy/#comment-35627 [...] — Another run? Jason Bartlett’s not having it. The very-good-and-reliable-yet-somehow-team MVP makes an over-the-body catch, suffocating Kotsay at [...] [...] — Another run? Jason Bartlett’s not having it. The very-good-and-reliable-yet-somehow-team MVP makes an over-the-body catch, suffocating Kotsay at [...]

]]> By: ALCS Game One Live Blog: Red Sox Vs. Rays [Rays Vs. Red Sox] | antiDNA.com http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/23/bartlett-equals-skippy/#comment-35561 ALCS Game One Live Blog: Red Sox Vs. Rays [Rays Vs. Red Sox] | antiDNA.com Sat, 11 Oct 2008 02:32:25 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/23/bartlett-equals-skippy/#comment-35561 [...] 10:06 — An­­othe­r ru­n­­? Jason­­ Bartl­e­tt’s n­­ot hav­in­­g­ it. The­ v­e­ry­-g­ood-an­­d-re­l­iabl­e­-y­e­t-some­how-t­ea­m­ M­VP mak­es an­ o­v­er­-the-bo­d­y­ c­atc­h, su­ffo­c­ati­n­g K­o­tsay­ at thi­r­d­. [...] [...] 10:06 — An­­othe­r ru­n­­? Jason­­ Bartl­e­tt’s n­­ot hav­in­­g­ it. The­ v­e­ry­-g­ood-an­­d-re­l­iabl­e­-y­e­t-some­how-t­ea­m­ M­VP mak­es an­ o­v­er­-the-bo­d­y­ c­atc­h, su­ffo­c­ati­n­g K­o­tsay­ at thi­r­d­. [...]

]]> By: denopac http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/23/bartlett-equals-skippy/#comment-33123 denopac Thu, 25 Sep 2008 21:54:23 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/23/bartlett-equals-skippy/#comment-33123 Oh and BTW... I didn't include "every single SS." I listed each SS who has the most innings at short for each team this year (with the exception of Furcal, who you explicitly asked to have included). And -- full disclosure -- I did cheat in one case: Aviles has more innings than Tone Pena Jr, but including TPJ in a list like this is just too tempting to pass up :-) Oh and BTW… I didn’t include “every single SS.” I listed each SS who has the most innings at short for each team this year (with the exception of Furcal, who you explicitly asked to have included). And — full disclosure — I did cheat in one case: Aviles has more innings than Tone Pena Jr, but including TPJ in a list like this is just too tempting to pass up :-)

]]> By: denopac http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/23/bartlett-equals-skippy/#comment-33120 denopac Thu, 25 Sep 2008 21:17:37 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/23/bartlett-equals-skippy/#comment-33120 Whatever. Cesar Izturis has been in MLB as long as Eckstein so I'm not sure why he doesn't count. If we're going to start kicking out people based on career length Escobar is out, and I have a strong feeling that Theriot will move down the list over time. And a lot of people don't think Jeter should even be playing shortstop. So there :-) Whatever. Cesar Izturis has been in MLB as long as Eckstein so I’m not sure why he doesn’t count. If we’re going to start kicking out people based on career length Escobar is out, and I have a strong feeling that Theriot will move down the list over time. And a lot of people don’t think Jeter should even be playing shortstop. So there :-)

]]> By: realbbbb http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/23/bartlett-equals-skippy/#comment-33073 realbbbb Thu, 25 Sep 2008 17:43:01 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/23/bartlett-equals-skippy/#comment-33073 "Eckstein is 6th out of 30." Yes, but you're including every single SS that has played over the past couple years. 1) Pretty sure that Tony Pena JR will not be a MLB SS next year. 2) Keppinger will have played 1 full season after this year. Same with Izturis/Aybar. The list really should probably have 20-22 people on it. Which would put him at 6th/22. “Eckstein is 6th out of 30.”

Yes, but you’re including every single SS that has played over the past couple years.

1) Pretty sure that Tony Pena JR will not be a MLB SS next year.
2) Keppinger will have played 1 full season after this year. Same with Izturis/Aybar. The list really should probably have 20-22 people on it. Which would put him at 6th/22.

]]> By: denopac http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/23/bartlett-equals-skippy/#comment-33066 denopac Thu, 25 Sep 2008 17:24:17 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/23/bartlett-equals-skippy/#comment-33066 Well I said I was done with this, but if you're going to start crediting me for things I never said: 1) I was not the one who said scrappy hustlers were OK. That was someone else. I only came to Eckstein's defense when you said that he has "NEVER" had a decent OBP. 2) Okay, let's include the NL. I've even included Furcal despite the fact that Berroa has played a lot more innings at SS for the Dodgers this year: Jeter .387 Ramirez .378 Escobar .373 Theriot .360 Furcal .352 Eckstein .350 Renteria .347 Young .346 Tulowitski .345 Tejada .341 Keppinger .339 Bartlett .338 Vizquel .338 Reyes .337 Lugo .335 Peralta .335 Rollins .333 Hardy .330 Drew .327 Cabrera .322 Punto .318 Wilson .312 Crosby .307 Guzman .307 Greene .304 Betancourt .302 Aybar .299 Izturis .298 Castro .268 Pena .185 Ramirez .378 Furcal .352 Tejada .341 Eckstein is 6th out of 30. That's top 20%, which should qualify as "decent." We're just going to have to agree to disagree about this. Well I said I was done with this, but if you’re going to start crediting me for things I never said:

1) I was not the one who said scrappy hustlers were OK. That was someone else. I only came to Eckstein’s defense when you said that he has “NEVER” had a decent OBP.

2) Okay, let’s include the NL. I’ve even included Furcal despite the fact that Berroa has played a lot more innings at SS for the Dodgers this year:

Jeter .387
Ramirez .378
Escobar .373
Theriot .360
Furcal .352
Eckstein .350
Renteria .347
Young .346
Tulowitski .345
Tejada .341
Keppinger .339
Bartlett .338
Vizquel .338
Reyes .337
Lugo .335
Peralta .335
Rollins .333
Hardy .330
Drew .327
Cabrera .322
Punto .318
Wilson .312
Crosby .307
Guzman .307
Greene .304
Betancourt .302
Aybar .299
Izturis .298
Castro .268
Pena .185
Ramirez .378
Furcal .352
Tejada .341

Eckstein is 6th out of 30. That’s top 20%, which should qualify as “decent.”

We’re just going to have to agree to disagree about this.

]]> By: realbbbb http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/23/bartlett-equals-skippy/#comment-33058 realbbbb Thu, 25 Sep 2008 16:41:46 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/23/bartlett-equals-skippy/#comment-33058 "Here is the lifetime OBP of AL shortstops. (I don’t have the energy to add the NL but I suspect it wouldn’t change much.) " No, that is the problem. Tejada, Han-Ram, Reyes, Furcal are all in the NL and should push Eckstein down in the rankings. "but his OBP is not something to denigrate. " I'm not denigrating his OBP. Denopac stated that there is nothing wrong with having scrappy hustlers without power (Bartlett, Eckstein) if they have decent OBP and if your lineup already has some sluggers. I agreed with that reasoning. The problem is that Ecksein, IMO, does not have a decent OBP. Compare him to fellow 1/2 hitters or to fellow SS or any other group, he doesn't come out as top 25%-33% in OBP (except in the albino scrawny sub 6 foot tall white guy group--in which case he probably leads the list). I guess its just a difference of opinion as to what constitutes "decent". Someone who has finished above the median the same number of times that he has been at/below the median the last 6 years in OBP doesn't qualify as "decent" in my book. "What, is he supposed to beg his manager to put him in the 9 hole for the good of the team? " No, you're right it is not Eckstein's fault. But it isn't our fault for comparing him to hitters who hit in the same lineup spot (and therefore should have similar duties). “Here is the lifetime OBP of AL shortstops. (I don’t have the energy to add the NL but I suspect it wouldn’t change much.) ”

No, that is the problem. Tejada, Han-Ram, Reyes, Furcal are all in the NL and should push Eckstein down in the rankings.

“but his OBP is not something to denigrate. ”

I’m not denigrating his OBP. Denopac stated that there is nothing wrong with having scrappy hustlers without power (Bartlett, Eckstein) if they have decent OBP and if your lineup already has some sluggers. I agreed with that reasoning. The problem is that Ecksein, IMO, does not have a decent OBP. Compare him to fellow 1/2 hitters or to fellow SS or any other group, he doesn’t come out as top 25%-33% in OBP (except in the albino scrawny sub 6 foot tall white guy group–in which case he probably leads the list).

I guess its just a difference of opinion as to what constitutes “decent”. Someone who has finished above the median the same number of times that he has been at/below the median the last 6 years in OBP doesn’t qualify as “decent” in my book.

“What, is he supposed to beg his manager to put him in the 9 hole for the good of the team? ”

No, you’re right it is not Eckstein’s fault. But it isn’t our fault for comparing him to hitters who hit in the same lineup spot (and therefore should have similar duties).

]]> By: Steve from Cleve http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/23/bartlett-equals-skippy/#comment-33053 Steve from Cleve Thu, 25 Sep 2008 15:35:41 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/23/bartlett-equals-skippy/#comment-33053 I'm gonna back up Denopac here. Eckstein's OBP is just fine, especially for a SS. He has lots of flaws in his game, since he's at best average defensively (on a good day) and has zero power, and he is too idolized by people who love scrappy little white guys, but his OBP is not something to denigrate. As for him being a #1/#2 guy, like Denopac said, that's a mangerial decision. What, is he supposed to beg his manager to put him in the 9 hole for the good of the team? "Come on skip, I know I'm a gritty, clutchy gamer, but I'm really not a good hitter, you really should have me hitting last!" Yeah, I'm sure lots of players would do that. Punishing a guy for where his manager plays him is as stupid as punishing someone in the MVP voting for the performance of his 24 teammates. I’m gonna back up Denopac here. Eckstein’s OBP is just fine, especially for a SS. He has lots of flaws in his game, since he’s at best average defensively (on a good day) and has zero power, and he is too idolized by people who love scrappy little white guys, but his OBP is not something to denigrate.

As for him being a #1/#2 guy, like Denopac said, that’s a mangerial decision. What, is he supposed to beg his manager to put him in the 9 hole for the good of the team? “Come on skip, I know I’m a gritty, clutchy gamer, but I’m really not a good hitter, you really should have me hitting last!” Yeah, I’m sure lots of players would do that. Punishing a guy for where his manager plays him is as stupid as punishing someone in the MVP voting for the performance of his 24 teammates.

]]> By: denopac http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/23/bartlett-equals-skippy/#comment-33051 denopac Thu, 25 Sep 2008 15:24:12 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/23/bartlett-equals-skippy/#comment-33051 Oops... TPJ's lifetime OBP is .254, not .185 (.185 is for 2008 only). And yes I know there are 14, not 16, teams in the AL. Oops… TPJ’s lifetime OBP is .254, not .185 (.185 is for 2008 only). And yes I know there are 14, not 16, teams in the AL.

]]> By: denopac http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/23/bartlett-equals-skippy/#comment-33042 denopac Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:42:15 +0000 http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/23/bartlett-equals-skippy/#comment-33042 Realbbbb, I suppose we can each come up with different ways of looking at this that will support our position. Here is the lifetime OBP of AL shortstops. (I don't have the energy to add the NL but I suspect it wouldn't change much.) Eckstein is second, behind a first ballot Hofer. Yes, I would consider 2nd out of 16 to be decent. You can go ahead and have the last word if you like.... I'm sick of this already. Jeter .387 Eckstein .350 Renteria .347 Young .346 Bartlett .338 Lugo .335 Peralta .335 Cabrera .322 Punto .318 Crosby .307 Betancourt .302 Aybar .299 Castro .268 Pena .185 Realbbbb, I suppose we can each come up with different ways of looking at this that will support our position. Here is the lifetime OBP of AL shortstops. (I don’t have the energy to add the NL but I suspect it wouldn’t change much.) Eckstein is second, behind a first ballot Hofer. Yes, I would consider 2nd out of 16 to be decent. You can go ahead and have the last word if you like…. I’m sick of this already.

Jeter .387
Eckstein .350
Renteria .347
Young .346
Bartlett .338
Lugo .335
Peralta .335
Cabrera .322
Punto .318
Crosby .307
Betancourt .302
Aybar .299
Castro .268
Pena .185

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