Bartlett (equals) Skippy
Posted: September 23rd, 2008 | Filed under: Baseball | 96 Comments »
Jason Bartlett has an 83 OPS+.
Jason Bartlett has a .328 on-base percentage and has struck out three times more than he has walked.
Jason Bartlett has a .358 slugging percentage and has hit 1.00 home runs this season.
Jason Bartlett has missed 32 baseball games, which accounts for his relatively unimpressive total of 43 runs scored and 34 runs batted in.
Jason Bartlett ranks 11th among “everyday shortstops” with an .825 zone rating.
Jason Bartlett ranks 12th among “everyday shortstops“ with 4.22 range factor.
Jason Bartlett ranks 17th among ”everyday shortstops“ with a .969 fielding percentage.
Jason Bartlett scores a minus-1 on the Dewan Plus/Minus fielding system, meaning he has made one fewer play than the average shortstop in baseball this year.
The Tampa Bay Chapter of the Baseball Writers Association of America voted Jason Bartlett the Tampa Bay Rays most valuable player in this magical season of 2008.
Your honor. The defense rests.
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“Your honor. The defense rests.”
And it’s been resting for 5 months and 22 days.
It’s been quite an exciting past 24 hours for Mr. Bartlett. He went from being an below average baseball player to being a very much talked about below average baseball player thanks to Poz, FJM, and the The Tampa Bay Chapter of the Baseball Writers Association of America. I wonder if his wife knows who he is now.
To be fair, how many people are actually IN the Tampa Bay Chapter of the BWAA? Three?
Yes, but did you know that the Rays were 1-31 in the games that he missed? And the only reason they won that one game is because, in the bottom of the 10th inning, with a tied score, Bartlett emerged in the dugout wearing a rally cap. True story.
Jason Bartlett has missed 32 baseball games
Ah – the old “absence makes the heart grow fonder” defence…
I think some people need a reminder that value accrues through actually playing, (unless you are a player like Neifi Perez, in which case not playing is more valuable).
This is the same line of argument that would see Tom Brady awarded this year’s NFL MVP award. The Pats have already lost one game – and might be headed for what, 10-6? 9-7? Tom Brady’s worth 6 or 7 games!! And he didn’t have to play to show it!!
Your honor. The defense rests.
I take it you’re saying this in your best Joe Pesci, “My Cousin Vinny” voice?
I’m disappointed Barlett isn’t pear-shaped.
Or Bartlett for that matter…
Hey, he could have been league MVP if had just stopped playing altogether. But think how much you’d have to PAY him to stop playing.
You sound like a clueless blogger living in your mother’s basement. Everyone knows that Jason Bartlett is a leader, A LEADER, MAN! and you can’t devalue that by looking at mere game performance. Look. Before Bartlett got to Tampa Bay, they sucked for their entire existence. Now, though, they are the cat’s meow. Coincidence? I think not.
I can only hope that by posting such an excellent synopsis of The Bartlett Incident, Joe may have taken a giant step toward helping all of us avoid The Gload Incident here in Kansas City. And for that, all Royal fans should be in Joe’s debt.
It’ll be a Gload off everyone’s mind, I’m sure.
I’m guessing the writers were crediting the Rays’ improved defense for the team’s incredible improvement this year (which is mostly fair), and setting up their new shortstop as a symbol of that success (which isn’t). Even if he is just an average defensive shortstop, though (and he’s had great numbers in the past), he’s still a huge improvement there over Brendan Harris. Obviously not their MVP, but more than just a bystander.
You can always count on baseball writers to vote for the white guy.
Someone should coin a Murphy’s Law-esque rule around that one.
Of course, that little comment ignores the fact that Evan Longoria (also caucasian) leads the team in VORP, with Carlos Pena and BJ Upton close behind. Bartlett is 8th, behind Eric Hinske and Cliff Floyd. Ouch.
Bartlett is 13th on the team in Win Shares.
God baseball writers are dumb.
And these are the same fools we entrust in voting for the Hall of Fame. A credit to your profession Joe.
Keep up the good work, this blog is a must-read.
Maybe the writers should take a cue from Lt. Frank Drebin:
Frank Drebin: Hector Savage. From Detroit. Ex-boxer. His real name was Joey Chicago.
Ed Hocken: Oh, yeah. He fought under the name of Kid Minneapolis.
Nordberg: I saw Kid Minneapolis fight once. In Cincinnati.
Lt. Frank Drebin: No you’re thinking of Kid New York. He fought out of Philly.
Ed Hocken: He was killed in the ring in Houston. By Tex Colorado. You know, the Arizona Assassin.
Nordberg: Yeah, from Dakota. I don’t remember it was North or South.
Lt. Frank Drebin: North. South Dakota was his brother. From West Virginia.
Ed Hocken: You sure know your boxing.
Lt. Frank Drebin: All I know is never bet on the white guy.
[Nordberg nods in agreement]
Let’s have a Presidential race of Jason Bartlett and Sarah Palin vs. Jed Bartlet (that is, Martin Sheen) and Tina Fey. Or maybe a race to decide whose accomplishments are more fictional.
We’re talking Skippy from Family Ties? That Skippy?
Need I remind you that Bartlett is a shortstop and as such is not to be judged by traditional statistics but by the measure of his intangibles, factors like Gritty Determination (GD) and Fielding Urgency (FU)? At least that’s how it works with Jeter and Eckstein.
Aren’t you the prosecution in this debate, Joe? Shouldn’t it be, “The prosecution rests?”
Please he CLEARLY deserves the honor! Your silly little numbers just get in the way of the grittiness, scrappiness and greatness (and any other word ending in ess) that is Bartlett in 08.
The Bartlett selection is an outrage. That’s two years in a row now that Eric Hinske has gotten jobbed out of the recognition he so richly deserves!
And just for the record, although I realize the above poster was being facetious, the Rays record without him is 16-16.
Frankly, it’s an insult to the Rays’ fine season. They finally make it to the playoffs, are an exciting young team, and the writers choose one of their very worst players. If I were a Rays fan, I’d be seriously offended.
From 2003-07, among the 45 SS with the most games, Bartlett’s UZR puts him 5th overall. #1 by far is Adam Everett, and then it’s a tight race between #2 through #7.
From 2006-08, he is #5 in Dewan’s Plus/Minus. #1 by far is Everett.
In the 2008 Fans’ Scouting Report, among the 30 SS with the most games, Bartlett ranks 3rd.
Whatever misgivings you can rightfully have of Bartlett should not carry over to his fielding.
But luckily, Bret, there really aren’t any Rays fans to get offended. (You have seen their attendence numbers, right?)
So, what’s really the harm here? Baseball writers exist for baseball fans to read them. The members of local chapter have jobs writing for local fans.
No local fans means a rather empty existance for the writers. Their actions, quite simply, have no significance.
And so, they make decisions accordingly.
This certainly doesn’t bode well for the the Cy Young… which will probably (unfortunately) go to Frankie Rodriguez.
But how does Jason Bartlett like his steak?
. . . so many Bartlett quotations, so little time
As a Rays fan, I’m not seriously offended at the award. I would have given it to C-Pena, mainly for what he did while Crawford, Longoria, Upton were out.
But here is why Tampa Bay baseball writers believe Jason Bartlett is a tremendous defensive shortstop, despite what the numbers prove ….
Ben Zobrist. Brendan Harris. Julio Lugo. Alex Gonzalez. Chris Gomez. Tomas Perez. Nick Green. Andy Sheets. Felix Escalona. Kevin Stocker. Felix Martinez. And … BJ Upton, the SS. Sadly, I could go deeper. Unlike these stiffs.
Oh, and another attendance crack? Really?
You probably already know this, Joe, but you’re not the only one who feels this way:
http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2008/09/its-cool.html
Given how many folks move from NYC to FL, maybe the Tampa Bay chapter of the BBWAA is full of the folks who used to argue that the Yankees were SOOOOOO much better when Scott Brosius was playing 3B instead of A-Rod.
Makes as much sense as anything.
I’m a huge fan of the Dodger Rays.
Judging only from appearances, Skippy could play Peter Pan in a Jif, I’d say.
You could call him the most valuable Ray, but ya doesn’t have to call him Johnson.
Bubba Trammell is somewhere in a corner, sobbing softly.
What about Jeff Kunkel?
How could you forget Bartlett’s grittiness quotient? It’s off the charts! And that right there is enough for MVP in my books. If I could vote, Erstad would win the Cy Young every year. Yep, he’s that gritty.
Strangely enough, the Twins braintrust (which includes a certain best manager, evah!!!!!1!!one!!!1!) thought that Bartlett was a miserable defensive player and lacked “urgency”.
you don’t sell the steak, you sell the sizzle.
Re: Brosius is better than A-Rod
Obviously A-Rod has more baseball talent than S-Bro, but what of the value of “role-players”? I’ve been watching the Yankees for 30+ years, and I have to say that, in the late 90’s the feeling that I got when they had a runner on 3rd with less than two out (for example) was that they would find a way to score that runner. That when the opposition committed an error or walked the leadoff hitter that that was almost as good as a run because the Yankees would take advantage.
The Yankees in the age of the curse of the Giambino, where Boss Steinbrenner started making baseball decisions again and signing all the 30-35 year old power-hitting marquee players he could get his hands on, don’t score runners on 3rd/less than 2 out as efficiently as many other teams (I believe there are stats out there that back up this assertion). I believe this is partially because the parade of high-paid power hitters feel that they need to do something spectacular, rather than just find a way to get the run in. There is a value in “situational hitting” isn’t there?
What of “curse of the Balboni”? I think I have this correct: no World Series winner between the Royals in ‘85 and the D-backs in ‘01 had a player hit 36 or more HRs for it.
I’m not trying to argue Jason Bartlett over Carlos Peña or E. Longoria, but I’m asking: if you already have a couple great power hitters in your lineup, isn’t there a value to having one scrappy guy (as long as he has a decent OBP)?
…friggin’ elitists…
People are frightened and confused when confronted with change. Often in these times, people revert to habit, to comfortable behaviors from their past.
Clearly, the Rays sportswriters are still confused by the team’s success. Not knowing how to handle it, they have reverted to their habit of giving the team’s MVP award to a mediocre player. Calling a slightly below average shortstop their team’s MVP provides meaning to what has otherwise been a terrifying season for these guys. Let’s cut them a break, they’re just coping with change as best as they can.
To the Tampa Bay BBWAA chapter. Please fire yourselves.
In fact, let’s just disband all of the BBWAA. Sorry Joe. We’ll find you a new club to be a member of. One that has Rob Neyer in it.
“Obviously A-Rod has more baseball talent than S-Bro, but what of the value of “role-playersâ€?
They have less value than a starting player. If they had more value, they would be starting. There is a reason they are “roleplayers.”
“in the late 90’s the feeling that I got when they had a runner on 3rd with less than two out (for example) was that they would find a way to score that runner.”
Hi, welcome to the Internet. Did you know you can look stuff up these days? While sadly BR does not have a team index of RISP 2 OUT and I’m too lazy to look at every individual batter’s stat, here is the Runs Scored for the Gritty, Role-Player Driven Yankees from the late 90s.
97 – 891
98 – 965
99 – 900
00 – 871
And here are the Runs Scored for the Curse of the Giambino Yankees, a team that featured no roleplayers and had nothing but me first guys on it that never, ever did a single thing that ever helped the team ever. (Derek Jeter excluded. Derek Jeter’s breaths help combat Malaria in Africa.)
02 – 897
03 – 877
04 – 897
05 – 886
06 – 930
07 – 968
Surprisingly, there isn’t really much difference. Actually, that’s not really all that surprising.
“don’t score runners on 3rd/less than 2 out as efficiently as many other teams (I believe there are stats out there that back up this assertion)”
Simply mentioning that you believe that there are stats out there that will acknowledge your belief really doesn’t cut it anymore in this day and age. You will actually have to link to those stats if you want to be taken seriously.
Also, the Yankees have pretty much been in the top five in scoring for the past decade. Whether that run comes with a guy on 3rd and 2 outs on a gritty Scott Brosius bloop to right field, or it comes with guys on 1st and 2nd with no outs because of a 500 foot tater tot by A-Rod is really quite irrelevant in the greater purpose of batting, which is to score runs.
“I believe this is partially because the parade of high-paid power hitters feel that they need to do something spectacular, rather than just find a way to get the run in.”
Alex Rodriguez creates 8.3 runs per game. Jason Giambi creates 8.3 runs per game. Scrappy Hustler Scott Brosius created 4.7 runs per game. Somehow I think that A-Rod and Giambi found ways to get those runs in. Also, your much hated high-paid power hitter had ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY SIX (156!!!!) runs batted in last year. But you’re right, he’s just not SCRAPPY enough to get that run in from third base.
Also : None of those RBIs ever helped the team win.
“There is a value in “situational hitting†isn’t there?”
Yes, there is. There is much more value in hitting homeruns.
“What of “curse of the Balboniâ€?”
Repeat after me : There is no such thing as a curse. None. For any team. The idea of curses is what pathetic BBWAA writers use as a crutch to prop up their pitiful writing when they can’t figure out what’s going on.
“if you already have a couple great power hitters in your lineup, isn’t there a value to having one scrappy guy (as long as he has a decent OBP)?”
Sure. Let’s rephrase that. If you already have three really good hitters, is there value in having another really good hitter? My guess would be that the answer is Yes. And that that value is much larger than the value a Scrapper like David Eckstein would bring.
Also, sure, if he has a decent OBP, the scrappy guy might be a good addition. Jason Bartlett has a .328 OBP which is pathetic.
Scott Brosius has a .323 career OBP which is pathetic. But Scott hit one homerun in a world series game, and voila, he epitomizes the Yankees for all recorded time. He’s a True Yankee!
The reason the Yankees haven’t won any WS titles since 2000 has nothing to do with their offense. It has everything to do with the other two factors of baseball.
- Pitching
- Defense
The pitching is Brian Cashman / Steinbrenner’s fault. The defense is partially the fault of the players because they mostly stink at it, and partially the fault of Derek Jeter because he stubbornly sticks to shortstop even though the dessicated corpse of Honus Wagner has more range to his left.
To summarize. A-Rod >>>>>>>>>>> Scott Brosius.
Also : Don Mattingly is not a True Yankee because he never won anything.
Fin.
TBD. Doesn’t matter who has been the SS over the years. Barteltt is about the 13th best Ray this year. No, Really.
Over at BP, in a chat today, Joe Sheehan commented that Bartlett wasn’t the MVP of the left side of the Tampa infield.
To answer the last sentence from NOAM SANE: Yes, if you have other hitters, there is value in a scrappy guy. But he is *not* the “most” valuable…
[...] like JoPo and the FJM folks, who must secretly be giddy to have a replacement for their David Eckstein [...]
Harris had a 106 OPS+ as the Devil Rays’ shortstop in 2007. But I guess he just didn’t know how to win.
Harris has an OPS+ of 92 this season and is hands down the worst defensive SS in MLB. He wasn’t even close to an average player because his defense is so bad.
I thought Bartlett’s defense was excellent? I guess he had a down year. Still an upgrade over Harris, I’m sure. Hmmm, I guess the Garza-Young deal wasn’t quite as big a steal as I thought.
Outside of the ridiculousness of Bartlett as MVP, it is interesting that they don’t have any one guy who blows you away. Just a lot of guys who are very good.
As for the Murphian scrappy white guy law, Bartlett is actually half-Filipino. Not to defend this selection but while his first half was admittedly terrible, he has hit .325/.362/.464 after the all-star break, which is pretty nifty for a SS with one HR. So it’s not like he’s had no value this year.
Actually there is a way to measure how effective a team is (runner on 3rd, less than 2 outs). sOPS+ measures how a team compares to league average for that season and is available on b-ref for each team, each season. Here are the Yankees:
1995 116
1996 98
1997 150
1998 152
1999 110
2000 112
2001 92
2002 142
2003 120
2004 125
2005 112
2006 113
2007 134
2008 107
Average 120
Obviously, they have been quite a bit better than the league average most years which is not surprising since they have been one of the best offensive teams overall most of those years. They were quite a bit better in 97-98 than the other years.
On, and Bartlett as team MVP is completely and utterly ridiculous.
Just re-read and meant to say that “sOPS+ measures how a team does compared to league average for a particular split. . . .”
I, like TBD, am a fan of the Rays and watch them on a fairly regular basis.
It is seriously hard to explain how nice it is to have a regular playing shortstop who doesn’t suck EXTRAORDINARILY (at both hitting and fielding).
Further, it’s not SO ridiculous that Bartlett was elected MVP. Imagine you watch the same teams every game for a year. When one player is in the lineup, your team wins and everything seems normal. When that player is not in the lineup your team starts getting blown out on a regular basis and suddenly all semblance of fielding in your infield is gone.
For the 20 or so games that he was out in mid-July, the Rays were DISMAL. The Rays haven’t had a poor run like that all season. No other players absence (Longoria, Pena or Navarro) seemed to have such an effect on the teams fortunes.
I went and looked up the numbers for when Bartlett was out of the lineup in mid-July.
The Rays were 7-9 with 57 RS (3.56/Gm) and 75 RA (4.69/Gm).
And given that the league average OBP is between .330-.340, I fail to see how .328 is pathetic. Below average–obviously. Bad–probably. Pathetic–now that is the domain of supposed AL RotY candidate Alexei Ramirez and his .317.
While I wouldn’t condone it, a part of me thinks it would be kind of funny for the rest of the BBWAA to choose Ellsbury or Galarraga as ROY. Then, when the Tampa writers raised a stink, they could just say “well, you said it yourselves…Evan Longoria’s not even as good as Jason friggin’ Bartlett.”
It’s an utterly indefensible choice. If Bartlett was REALLY their best/most valuable player (by virtually any reasonable definition), the team would currently be occupying…well, the spot in the standings that’s been reserved for the Devil Rays almost every season since their inception.
I just hope that the term “S-Bro” is never seen outside this blog.
I was actually just going to post to ask where Creston had been. Good to see you back.
Returning to the shadows, Joaldo.
M
David Eckstein, for the second season in a row, will set a personal record for fewest plate appearances. He was traded midseason for the first time ever, is with his fourth team in six years, and is running out of GMs that will pay him and field managers that will play him.
So in desperation, the Tampa Bay BBWA turn to Sparky to pick up the scrappy crown, even though at six feet even Bartlett’s too tall to be classically scrappy. Still, with Eckstein all but gone, they had to do something, lest the word scrappy disappear into the dictionary of archaic baseball terms, along with spitter, ephus, Bum, Senator, the whippet Barry Bonds, and World Champion Yankees. Yes, they are completely wrong, but you have to give those scrappy lovers credit for being, well, scrappy.
I don’t know why I’m even attempting to put myself in their line of thinking (because it’s making my brain hurt), but maybe they voted for him simply because he IS the worst everyday player on the team.
Stay with me here.
You’re only as strong as your weakest link, right??
Jason Bartlett = Weakest Link x10
Maybe by voting their worst player the MVP for the season, the BBWAA writers in Tampa Bay are hoping to boost Bartlett’s confidence going into the playoffs. This will then make him a better “weakest link” which in turn will make the rest of the team stronger.
Because everyone knows it’s sheer will and meaningless awards that make players perform better.
Alright Creston
I definitely buy the -Pitching/Defense is now what the Yankees lack- argument.
Thanks for the complete answer and analysis.
Oh and
ETHEGOLFMAN, Thanks for posting those sOPS+ numbers.
That’s what I was hoping to see.
N-Sane
There may be some merit to some of these arguments about their record without him (not that it makes him the MVP, that may mean a lot of things, like his backup stinks or their pitching went into the tank during the stretch when he was out).
Anyway here is the Ray’s record without their major contributors:
Upton 7-9
Bartlett 16-16
Iwamura 5-3
Pena 12-9
Navarro 22-18
Hinske 16-12
Crawford 28-20
Longoria 24-16
(calculations through Monday’s games)
Now, in a vacuum, I would say they missed Upton most when he was out of the lineup, but Bartlett seems to have been missed too. I recognize that there are too many unknowns to this equation to really utlilize it to come to the conclusion that B.J. Upton was the MVP of the Rays.
Somebody float Joe a few dollars for the pizza:
http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2008/09/its-cool.html
“I just hope that the term “S-Bro†is never seen outside this blog.”
What???
Doesn’t everyone called him S-Bro?
C-Knob, T-Mart, P-O’N
I thought that’s what everyone called them!
Geez, sometimes you think you know the world…
Range factor and fielding percentage? Really? Tango Tiger’s evidence is much more convincing to me on the issue of whether or not Bartlett is a very good defensive SS.
So a good defensive SS with a decent OBP and some big hits late in the year gets named MVP of the Tampa Rays by the local writers. Who cares? Why so much anger and aggressive snark in the comments over something so utterly meaningless?
Carl Peterson is still employed. Where’s the hate for that? Bartlett winning that award is alleged jaywalking compared to the multiple capital felonies of Carl and his henchman Herm Edwards. I challenge Joe to inspire some of this intense mockery over something that actually really determines the long term fortunes of an entire franchise, instead of some incredibly meaningless award that changes nothing on the field ever.
Carl Pavano was just named MVP of the Yanks.
*slow clap for Creston*
And Joe, please blog about the Royals attaining 4th place today, because Bannister pitches tonight so it probably is a one night show only.
Point 1: My argument about the Rays shortstops isnt defending Bartlett’s selection as MVP as much as it is trying to explain WHY rays writers THINK he is a tremendous shortstop.
If you eat dog food every day for 10 years and then get a bite of a Whopper Jr., it’s probably going to taste great. You dont even know what steak tastes like … no matter how you like it.
Point 2: The MVP of this team is Pena (by a hair (mohawk?) over Longoria). But his numbers arent what they were last season. That probably hurt his candidacy, which leads to the final, and most important, point.
Point 3: You’re asking for a reasonable decision from buffoons.
[...] defense even though his defensive numbers say otherwise. Check out Joe Posnanski’s blog for a breakdown of Bartlett’s numbers and then you tell me how Bartlett is team MVP. Those defensive numbers aren’t the best [...]
Do you think the BBWAA voted for Bartlett because Derek Jeter was ineligible?
to NOAM SAME
“if you already have a couple great power hitters in your lineup, isn’t there a value to having one scrappy guy (as long as he has a decent OBP)?”
Yes. But Barlett, Eckstein, et al. have NEVER had decent OBP’s.
2 other things
1) The best part of the original article (Bartlett MVP) was that did not include 1 bit of evidence or statistic as to why Bartlett won the award, but had 3 reasons for Longoria (Gold Glove defense at 3B, allowed Iwamura to move to 2B, leads team in HR/RBI)
2) The writer has posted another article (this morning) listing his ballots for postseason awards. #7 on the AL MVP ballot – Jason Bartlett. Yes, Jason Barlett is more deserving of the AL MVP than Longoria, Pena, or Cliff Lee.
Jason Bartlett 7th in AL MVP Ballot
Addressing the comment that the Rays were “dismal†when Bartlett was on the DL in July: The Rays had ONE bad WEEK in July when Bartlett was injured. On the basis of THAT all statistical evidence is to be thrown out the window? Only a person suffering from insanity, or a baseball writer (not Joe) could infer from that infinitesimally small coincidence that Bartlett is a legitimate MVP. It’s like they confused cause and effect. They might as well say that it was due to the weather, or the price of gasoline.
Bucholz Surfer,
I was going to respond that, as a non Kansas Citian, it seems obvious to me that the biggest joke of a GM,a nd the most inexplicable non-firing, was Matt Millen in Detroit — he may be worst than Isiah Thomas, and vertainly is among the worst GM’s ever, but then I read this morning’s news…
In Bartlett’s defense, I can’t even begin to tell you how wonderful it’s been to see a shortstop in a (Devil) Rays uniform that can make most routine and a lot of difficult plays in the field. My nightmare as a (Devil) Rays fan has always been the slow roller to short that always wound up in Crawford’s glove. I can’t even imagine how bad it would have been if Crawford wasn’t fast.
But that’s all the defense I’ve got. Beyond the obvious offensive deficiencies for Bartlett, he can’t even claim to be the obvious best defensive player in our infield. Pena, Longoria and Navarro can all be pretty impressive on defense.
More deserving MVPs: Pena, Longoria, Navarro, Kazmir, Shields, Howell, Balfour, Wheeler, Joe Maddon’s glasses, Jonny Gomes’ right fist, Dewayne Staats’ hair.
“But Barlett, Eckstein, et al. have NEVER had decent OBP’s.”
Eckstein’s *lifetime* OBP is .350. Not great, but significantly above league average (generally mid .330s since 2001).
“Eckstein’s *lifetime* OBP is .350. Not great, but significantly above league average (generally mid .330s since 2001).”
Do you consider .350 decent? I don’t, especially for people that are batting in #1/#2 positions (as Eckstein normally does). A .350 OBP for a #1 hitter would place that hitter tied for 12th out of 16 qualified so far in 2008. Is being 12th/16 considered “decent” in your book?
Creston –
Your description of Jeter’s range (”the dessicated corpse of Honus Wagner has more range to his left”) is now #2 (with a bullet) on my list of favorite descriptions of Mr. Gold Glover’s fielding.
Holding steady at #1 is Bill James’ “He moves like pond scum.”
Decent: “fair; good enough; okay” … yes, I would say that an OBP 15 points above league average for 4400 PAs is decent.
And his place in the batting order is decided by his manager. It shouldn’t he held against him that his GMs haven’t been able to put together teams that would allow him to bat 8th/9th. A fairer comparison of his OBP would be to shortstops of the last eight years.
Look, I’m no great fan of Eckstein’s, but ragging on him for his above average *lifetime* OBP when there’s so much else in his game to rag on deserves a term of its own: “reverse jeterating.”
Have you all learned NOTHING from the defeat of Dr. Stat?
http://mlb.mlb.com/tb/fan_forum/dotg.jsp
“Actually there is a way to measure how effective a team is (runner on 3rd, less than 2 outs). sOPS+ measures how a team compares to league average for that season and is available on b-ref for each team, each season”
I never knew that. Thanks ethegolfman!
Any day in which you learn more about stats is a good day.
“Why so much anger and aggressive snark in the comments over something so utterly meaningless? ”
You’ll find that 99.999999999% of all posts on the Internet are made by the poster with sort of a “… eh.” mentality. Nobody’s really lying awake over what Doug Scanlon writes.
It is, however, a travesty that the club of people that write about baseball know so VERY little about baseball.
Also, most people post this sort of stuff from work, because we’re bored.
“A fairer comparison of his OBP would be to shortstops of the last eight years.”
Fair enough – OBP vs all MLB SS
2008: T-9th out of 17 Qualified (he isn’t qualified)
2007: 7th out of 23
2006: 11th out of 19
2005: 4th out of 17
2004: 8th out of 20
2003: 10th out of 21
Half the years he is above the median, half he is at/below. That qualifies as decent?
He’s the best player in the league! Numbers be darned!
Two things:
1) Bartlett has a lower OPS than Nick Punto. That says it all.
2) In semi-defense of Bartlett, I’ve always wondered if stats like Zone Rating and Range Factor skewed against infielders who play on turf. The ball’s moving faster and all. I’ve never managed to learn how ZR and RF are tabulated (someone’s charting all the fielding chances through video and computers?) and I’m too lazy to look for this myself, so someone should really tell me.
Watching Bartlett as I did throughout his Twins career, his errors typically come on routine plays where he (apparently) loses concentration. I’m not suggesting he’s Ozzie Smith II, but Bartlett does seem better defensively than ZR and RF would suggest…
Realbbbb, I suppose we can each come up with different ways of looking at this that will support our position. Here is the lifetime OBP of AL shortstops. (I don’t have the energy to add the NL but I suspect it wouldn’t change much.) Eckstein is second, behind a first ballot Hofer. Yes, I would consider 2nd out of 16 to be decent. You can go ahead and have the last word if you like…. I’m sick of this already.
Jeter .387
Eckstein .350
Renteria .347
Young .346
Bartlett .338
Lugo .335
Peralta .335
Cabrera .322
Punto .318
Crosby .307
Betancourt .302
Aybar .299
Castro .268
Pena .185
Oops… TPJ’s lifetime OBP is .254, not .185 (.185 is for 2008 only). And yes I know there are 14, not 16, teams in the AL.
I’m gonna back up Denopac here. Eckstein’s OBP is just fine, especially for a SS. He has lots of flaws in his game, since he’s at best average defensively (on a good day) and has zero power, and he is too idolized by people who love scrappy little white guys, but his OBP is not something to denigrate.
As for him being a #1/#2 guy, like Denopac said, that’s a mangerial decision. What, is he supposed to beg his manager to put him in the 9 hole for the good of the team? “Come on skip, I know I’m a gritty, clutchy gamer, but I’m really not a good hitter, you really should have me hitting last!” Yeah, I’m sure lots of players would do that. Punishing a guy for where his manager plays him is as stupid as punishing someone in the MVP voting for the performance of his 24 teammates.
“Here is the lifetime OBP of AL shortstops. (I don’t have the energy to add the NL but I suspect it wouldn’t change much.) ”
No, that is the problem. Tejada, Han-Ram, Reyes, Furcal are all in the NL and should push Eckstein down in the rankings.
“but his OBP is not something to denigrate. ”
I’m not denigrating his OBP. Denopac stated that there is nothing wrong with having scrappy hustlers without power (Bartlett, Eckstein) if they have decent OBP and if your lineup already has some sluggers. I agreed with that reasoning. The problem is that Ecksein, IMO, does not have a decent OBP. Compare him to fellow 1/2 hitters or to fellow SS or any other group, he doesn’t come out as top 25%-33% in OBP (except in the albino scrawny sub 6 foot tall white guy group–in which case he probably leads the list).
I guess its just a difference of opinion as to what constitutes “decent”. Someone who has finished above the median the same number of times that he has been at/below the median the last 6 years in OBP doesn’t qualify as “decent” in my book.
“What, is he supposed to beg his manager to put him in the 9 hole for the good of the team? ”
No, you’re right it is not Eckstein’s fault. But it isn’t our fault for comparing him to hitters who hit in the same lineup spot (and therefore should have similar duties).
Well I said I was done with this, but if you’re going to start crediting me for things I never said:
1) I was not the one who said scrappy hustlers were OK. That was someone else. I only came to Eckstein’s defense when you said that he has “NEVER” had a decent OBP.
2) Okay, let’s include the NL. I’ve even included Furcal despite the fact that Berroa has played a lot more innings at SS for the Dodgers this year:
Jeter .387
Ramirez .378
Escobar .373
Theriot .360
Furcal .352
Eckstein .350
Renteria .347
Young .346
Tulowitski .345
Tejada .341
Keppinger .339
Bartlett .338
Vizquel .338
Reyes .337
Lugo .335
Peralta .335
Rollins .333
Hardy .330
Drew .327
Cabrera .322
Punto .318
Wilson .312
Crosby .307
Guzman .307
Greene .304
Betancourt .302
Aybar .299
Izturis .298
Castro .268
Pena .185
Ramirez .378
Furcal .352
Tejada .341
Eckstein is 6th out of 30. That’s top 20%, which should qualify as “decent.”
We’re just going to have to agree to disagree about this.
“Eckstein is 6th out of 30.”
Yes, but you’re including every single SS that has played over the past couple years.
1) Pretty sure that Tony Pena JR will not be a MLB SS next year.
2) Keppinger will have played 1 full season after this year. Same with Izturis/Aybar. The list really should probably have 20-22 people on it. Which would put him at 6th/22.
Whatever. Cesar Izturis has been in MLB as long as Eckstein so I’m not sure why he doesn’t count. If we’re going to start kicking out people based on career length Escobar is out, and I have a strong feeling that Theriot will move down the list over time. And a lot of people don’t think Jeter should even be playing shortstop. So there
Oh and BTW… I didn’t include “every single SS.” I listed each SS who has the most innings at short for each team this year (with the exception of Furcal, who you explicitly asked to have included). And — full disclosure — I did cheat in one case: Aviles has more innings than Tone Pena Jr, but including TPJ in a list like this is just too tempting to pass up
[...] 10:06 — Another run? Jason Bartlett’s not having it. The very-good-and-reliable-yet-somehow-team MVP makes an over-the-body catch, suffocating Kotsay at third. [...]
[...] — Another run? Jason Bartlett’s not having it. The very-good-and-reliable-yet-somehow-team MVP makes an over-the-body catch, suffocating Kotsay at [...]