A comment from brilliant reader DJ:

”Rose vs. Jeter per 162 games

Jeter wins hands down: 207 hits, 120 runs, 17 HR, 82 RBI, .316 BA .386 OBP .458 SLG

Rose: 194 hits, 98 runs, 7 HR, 60 RBI, .303 BA .375 OBP .409 SLG

it’s not even close.“

Now, let’s me say as kindly as possible that even though the above comment is technically accurate there are about 200 things wrong with it. But before I get to those I want to say that DJ’s main point is exactly right: It’s fun to match up Pete Rose and Derek Jeter. They are such comparable players. Both hit for high averages. Both would give you 200 hits a year. Both got on base. Both played for great teams. Both willed those teams. Both were hugely popular. Both made stunning postseason plays. Both had detractors who thought they were overrated. Both did TV commercials. And so on.

And, honestly, I’m not sure which one was better. I think this makes for a classic argument, right there with Mantle vs. Mays, Clemente vs. Kaline, Maddux vs. Clemens, Kuiper vs. Kid Gleason, Cruise vs. Costner, Twix vs. Kit Kat, Cocoa Krisipies vs. Cocoa Pebbles and so on.

So, let’s match ‘em up. But first, yeah, we need to point out why this is much more complicated than DJ’s statistical breakdown makes it seem. We’ll reduce those 200 things down to two main points:

Point 1: If you want to match up Rose vs. Jeter per 162 games, you need to do it fairly. Jeter is 34 years old and seems to be beginning his decline (though he has been his old self the last 75 games or so). Rose’ s breakdown numbers, meanwhile, include his final 11 years, long after his prime. So, if you want to compare them per 162, the numbers are badly, badly skewed. Let’s now look at DJ’s same numbers through the age of 34.

Jeter: 207 hits, 120 runs, 34 doubles, 5 triples, 17 HR, 82 RBIs, .316 BA, .386 OBP, .458 SLG.

Rose: 204 hits, 107 runs, 35 doubles, 8 triples, 10 homers, 62 RBIs, .310 BA, .379 OBP, .432 SLG.

OK, so that’s much closer. And Rose had one more terrific year when he was 35 — we’ll see if next year Jeter will match the .323/.404/.450 season that Rose had in ‘76.

Still, even with all this, Jeter still does have a slight statistical advantage. But that brings us to Point 2 — you already know what’s coming, of course.

Point 2: Rose played in a much, much, much harder hitting environment. A run was much more valuable in the National League in the 1960s and 1970s when Rose was playing than it was in the 1990s and 2000s American League of Derek Jeter. We all know there are statistics that take this into account. Take a look at the Runs Created Above Average through age 34:

Rose: 378
Jeter: 350

Take a look at the OPS+ through age 34.

Rose: 126
Jeter: 121

Take a look at the Top 10 seasons of Win Shares (this incorporates defense, by the way):

Rose: 37, 34, 32, 32, 31, 30, 29, 28, 27, 27.
Jeter: 35, 32, 28, 27, 26, 26, 24, 24, 23, 19.

Take a look at the top five Equivalent Averages of each player by age 34:

Rose: .328 (1969), .324 (1968), .312 (1973), .311 (1972) and .306 (1975*)
Jeter: .332 (1999), .319 (2006), .310 (2000), .309 (1998) and .305 (2005)

Or you can look at the Baseball Reference neutralized statistics for the two men through age 34:

Rose: .323/.392/.449
Jeter: .315/.386/.458

We can keep going like this … Rose’s numbers when seen through the wider lens very clearly measure up to Jeter’s and, in many instances, are a little bit better. Now, I don’t think that necessarily makes Rose better than Jeter. I think this is worthy of a long post — and by coincidence one follows. But my point is that I think this is not something you can just write off with a blanket statistical statement and no further explanation.

*Did I mention I’m writing a book about the 1975 Cincinnati Reds?

* * *

Even now, I believe, baseball fans hunger for Pete Rose. They don’t hunger for the old Pete Rose, of course, the crotchety Rose penciling himself into the lineup so he could break the unbreakable hit record, the manager Rose who had a standing bet on his team, the unrepentant Rose who would show up in Cooperstown to sign autographs for his very own Hall of Fame, the repentant Rose who will write ”I’m sorry I bet on baseball,“ on a baseball and then sign his name for the right price.

No, it’s the young Rose we’re talking about here, the in-your-face Rose, the run-over-Ray-Fosse Rose, the run-to-first-base-on-a-walk Rose, the switch-hitting, double stretching, headfirst diving, double-play busting, Bud-Harrelson fighting, father admiring, often quotable, self-promotable, always notable Peter Edward Rose. I suspect that people who are younger than, say, 35 or so, have only fuzzy memories of that Rose, or no memory at all.

And still, I think, fans long for him. I say this based on three things I believe:

1. Dustin Pedroia seems to be the most likely winner of the MVP award this year, everybody loves/hates Dustin Pedroia, and Dustin Pedroia is like Pete Rose.

2. Johnny Damon has written a best-selling book, Johnny Damon gets booed and cheered in pretty much every ballpark in America, and Johnny Damon is like Pete Rose.

3. There is (I think) no player in baseball who is more talked about, argued about and known than Derek Jeter, and Derek Jeter, probably more than anyone else, is like Pete Rose.

Rose did not invent the grinder style of play that got him on the cover of Time and won him Sports Illustrated’s Sportsman of the Year and later made heroes out of more minor players like Steve Sax and Darin Erstad and, of course, David Eckstein. Rose and his father used to watch Enos Slaughter play baseball, and they saw him run to first base on a walk, and Big Pete told his son “That’s the way you’re supposed to play baseball.” Country Slaughter was a hard-nosed ballplayer, often to the point of cruelty — he famously spiked Jackie Robinson while running to first base on an infield ground ball. “A guy got in my way,” Slaughter said. “I run over him.”*

*The incident led many people to believe that Slaughter was a virulent racist, and there is more evidence than just the spike. He was, according to some accounts, one of the players who wanted to lead a league-wide strike after Robinson joined the Brooklyn Dodgers. But there is also some evidence that he mellowed in his later years. Anyway, I still think of what Buck O’Neil said. Buck was part of the Hall of Fame veteran’s committee that finally voted Slaughter into the Hall in 1985. And Buck’s quote about Enos Slaughter is still one of my favorite parts of the a book I once wrote (Only $5.99!!):

“People said to me, ‘Naw, naw, you can’t vote for Enos Slaughter. He was prejudiced.’

“I said, ‘What’s that got to do with anything?’ If we think like that we won’t let anyone in the Hall of Fame. Look around: The Hall of Fame is filled with racists and drunks and all kinds of people. The world is filled with all kinds of people. You can’t know what’s happening in a man’s heart. Could he play or couldn’t he play? That’s what matters.”

Enos Slaughter did not create that style of baseball either; he learned it from Eddie Dyer, who was a minor league manager in the Cardinals system going back to the days of the Gas House Gang. Apparently one day Slaughter was walking in from the outfield and Dyer waited for him at the top of the steps and said: “Son, if you’re tired, we ‘ll try to get you some help.” Slaughter, it is said, never walked anywhere again. Then, Dyer learned the style, probably, from Pepper Martin, a rough-and-tumble player on the Cardinals who would later, as a manager, be suspended for choking an umpire. And Pepper Martin didn’t invent that style of baseball either, he learned it from many, including his manager Gabby Street, who like everyone else of his time was inspired and repulsed and overwhelmed by the roughneck style of the master, Ty Cobb.

“Cobb,” Gabby once said, “had a ninety horsepower brain.”

See, with Rose, everything goes back to Cobb.

But Pete Rose made the style all his own. He played baseball as hard as Cobb, as ruthlessly as Slaughter, as ferociously as Pepper Martin, but he added a modern touch. He played for money. He longed for fame. He bought expensive cars. He did goofy Aqua Velva commercials. There were those — then and now — who said much of what Rose did (the headfirst dives, the running to first base) was just show, and that’s probably right. But, the larger point is still that he never turned off.

Here’s a fun Rose statistic that tells you something: Rose is second all-time in doubles, and he led the league in doubles five times. But the thing that strikes a chord is that he never led the league in doubles BEFORE he turned 33. That seems to say that Rose never lost his drive, his need to make the wide turn at first base and dig for second whenever he saw a fielder move a bit slowly to the ball or tip off balance after he reached it. Here’s another way to look at it. There are three men who hit 40 or more doubles three times after their 35th birthday. They are all Hall of Famers and all-time hustlers — Tris Speaker, George Brett and Craig Biggio. … Pete Rose did it four times.

In other words he may have been playing Charlie Hustle for show, for money and fame, but he never stopped, never, and if you are ALWAYS on, it becomes real. It reminds of my friend Chuck Culpepper’s classic line when friends of his called Florida State football coach Bobby Bowden a phony. Chuck said, “Well, if he’s a phony, he’s been pulling off the act every day for 50 years so he’s doing one hell of a job.” Rose was the same way. After a while, if you are ALWAYS hustling, and always stretching singles into doubles, does it even matter why?

Rose tapped into people’s feelings about the game in a way that, I thought, was unique — he was the first person I ever heard used in the expression: “If he’s on your team you love him; if he’s on the other team you hate him.” It was a perfect saying for Pete Rose, and also easily demonstrated. They hated him in Philadelphia for all those years when he played for the Big Red Machine. But in 1980, in Philadelphia, during the World Series, when that foul ball popped out of Bob Boone’s glove, and Pete Rose (being Pete Rose) was somehow there and somehow caught it and then slammed the ball down in the turf, yeah, you better believe that every child born in the City of Brotherly Love for the next 72 hours was Christened Peter — at least as a middle name.

* * *

That Bob Boone play defined Pete Rose in many ways … much in the same way that the Jeremy Giambi play defined Derek Jeter. To remind you, it was Game 3 of the 2001 American League playoffs, Oakland led two game to none, the Yankees led the game 1-0, and Jeremy Giambi was inexplicably on first base (Art Howe would later say he thought about a pinch-hitter but, being Art Howe, didn’t make the move). Terrence Long hit the ball down the first base line. There were two outs so Giambi was running on the play, he lumbered around second, around third, and third base coach Ron Washington waved him home. As that was happening, New York right fielder Shane Spencer grabbed the ball in the corner, whirled, and made one absolutely horrendous throw. He missed the first cutoff man. He missed the second cutoff man. The ball bounced wildly toward foul ground.

There were, in my mind, two amazing plays made at this point. The first, everyone knows about. Derek Jeter, seeing that the ball was wildly overthrown, ran across the field in a rather stunning display of awareness, chased down the ball, grabbed it and in one motion backflipped it to Jorge Posada, who grabbed the perfect throw and reached back and tagged Giambi, who had decided to forever taint the Moneyball style of baseball by not sliding.*

*Seriously, the Oakland A’s with an absolutely nothing payroll averaged 97 victories between 2000 and 2004 and people still want to reduce the Moneyball achievement to goofy Giambi not sliding and a couple of defensive lapses in the playoffs.

My favorite quote on Jeter’s play came, of course, from Johnny Damon: “What the heck was Derek Jeter doing way over there? … Was he a high school quarterback or something? That was pure instinct.”

The second great play, in my mind, was made by Posada, who did not go chasing after Spencer’s bad throw. Talk about pure instinct. Posada saw Jeter running across the field and, instinctively, decided to stay at home plate and see what kind of magic the guy would do. I’ve always thought that as great as those passes were by, say, Pistol Pete Maravich or Magic Johnson, there should be some credit given to the person who anticipated the pass, grabbed it, dunked the ball home. As it turned out, Posada also hit the game winning home run and so the next day the questions to him were mostly about that (“It was a fastball, middle-in,” he said). Because of that, I’ve never really seen a telling quote (and I’ve never thought to ask him) explaining WHY he waited at home plate when the ball was way over in foul ground. I really do think it was just a matter of waiting and hoping for Derek Jeter to save the day.

I know some people think I do not like Derek Jeter — probably because I invented the word Jeterate and tend to get a bit worked up about Jeter’s defensive issues. But I do like him, I admire him, and I’ve always thought that while that play gets shown about 583 times every postseason, it is actually an excellent way to describe Jeter’s play. He has, in my mind, played with a heightened sense of life. You know that expression: “Be alive out there.” I think Jeter has been alive as much or more than any player of his generation.

I don’t mean that he’s some great clutch guy — I don’t believe in that stuff much, I think great clutch players tend to be great players the rest of the time too — but I mean that he has shown an ability to play at a high level more often and more consistently than many others. He seems to have a good grasp of the moment, and he doesn’t fade out too often.

Example: I’ve never thought Jeter was especially fast but he has stolen 275 bases in his career, and he rarely gets caught. There is something about stealing a base that transcends speed, something about anticipation and quickness and a sense of the moment. I think Jeter has bucket loads of that stuff.

He has done all of those things that express consistency and equilibrium. He has cracked 200 hits six times in his career. He has hit 15 or more home runs seven times despite playing in a right-handed hitter’s graveyard. He has hit .300 every year but two, he has on-based .370 every year but two, he has either led or finished second in the league in singles eight times. He has scored 100 runs or more every full year he’s played (until this year — he will need a big finish), and sure, it’s true Jeter has been followed by great hitters his whole career but, hey, 100 runs is 100 runs and the only way you can get there is to play a lot, get on base, and take the opportunities when they come.

* * *

So, who was better, Rose or Jeter?

Let’s break it down. While I just mentioned that Jeter is not a speed burner, he is considerably faster than the young Pete Rose. And you can see it in stolen bases — through the same point in their career, Jeter has stolen than 275 bases, Rose stole 97. Here’s a little tidbit for you: Rose was the only Machine regular to not steal a base during that 1975 season. Hey, I have these facts, I have to drop them on someone.

Rose, though, made up for a lot of that with his aggression, by stretching more singles into doubles (441 to 411) and doubles into triples (95 ot 57).

Jeter hit for more home run power. Well, it’s kind of interesting, this wasn’t always true. The younger Rose hit double digit home runs for seven straight years, from 1965 to 1971. So in those years, he really did hit with similar power to Jeter. Then, though, his home run power tailed off sharply — and what I find intriguing is that happened around that time Rose was often quoted about how he was the first “$100,000 singles hitter.” It’s almost like he decided the lack of homers was an important part of his persona. Rose’s homers suddenly were cut in half, but his strikeouts also went down by more than 20 percent. I suspect that Rose purposely decided to become a slightly different kind of player.* Anyway, Jeter has hit with better power.

*Duh. As brilliant reader David points out … the Reds moved from Crosley Field to Riverfront Stadium in the middle of 1970. So, yeah, there’s the difference.

Rose struck out a lot less often. Jeter has been a high strikeout guy — about 100 per year — and Rose struck out about half as often.

Jeter, on the surface anyway, should have more value defensively because he’s been a Gold Glove shortstop while Pete played four different positions during his first 13 seasons. But this is probably closer than appears at first glance. Rose moved around to help the team. His willingness to move to third base in May of 1975 was, in many ways, the key to the whole season. He won Gold Gloves playing outfield in 1969 and 1970, and while Gold Gloves might have been a bit over the top — he wasn’t exactly a range rover out there — he was quite a good and solid outfielder, either in left or right. And he came up as a second baseman, and while he wasn’t especially good there, he held his own.*

*Later, Pete played first base and when he talks about defense he says, “Look, I may not have been a great fielder but I worked hard at it. And I’ll tell you this, I was a DAMN GOOD first baseman. I mean maybe I wasn’t Keith Hernandez, but I was the next best thing.”

Meanwhile, Jeter’s shortstop defense has probably been discussed and argued about more than the defense of any other player in baseball history. It is the opinion here that Jeter has been a dreadful defensive shortstop, and I say that mostly because I have never found a reasonable defensive statistic that shows anything else. At some point, if it looks like duck and quacks like a duck and has the zone rating of a duck, it’s probably a duck.

So, I’m not willing to give Jeter a big advantage for his defense. I’m sure he can play shortstop significantly better than Rose could. But Rose never played shortstop.

They’re both great, great players. But you know what? I’m picking Rose. Here’s why: Because in the end, I think he just did a few more things well than Jeter. And I say that knowing and appreciating that Jeter does a hell of a lot and has those homer and stolen base advantages. Here are the major offensive categories Derek Jeter has finished among the Top 10:

Batting average (8 times)
On base percentage (5 times)
OPS (1 time)
Games played (4 times)
Runs (9 times — led once)
Hits (11 times — led once)
Total bases (1 time)
Doubles (1 time)
Triples (3 times)
Walks (1 time)
Stolen bases (4 times)
Adusted OPS+ (1 time)
Runs created (3 times — led once)

He’s also finished in the Top 10 in negative categories like outs (five times), grounded into double plays (three times) and strikeouts (once)

Now Pete:
Batting average (8 times — led three)
On-base percentage (7 times — led once)
Slugging percentage (2 times)
OPS (3 times)
Games (8 times — led three)
Runs (11 times — led three)
Hits (11 times — led five)
Total bases (8 times)
Doubles (10 times — led two)
Triples (8 times)
Walks (4 times)
Adjusted OPS+ (3 times)
Runs created (9 times — led once)

He finished in the Top 10 in outs eight times, more than Jeter, but he was not among leaders in doubles plays or strikeouts.

Rose, in my view, was just a more dominant player in his era. Of course, I am writing a book about the ‘75 Reds, who did you think I was going to pick?

This entry was posted on Monday, September 15th, 2008 at 9:43 am.
Categories: Baseball.

127 Comments, Comment or Ping

  1. Chris

    This is ridiculous . . . Cocoa Pebbles are far and away better and Cocoa Krispies!

    Thank you for several thousand words of entertainment. Good stuff!

    Sep 15th, 2008

  2. Chris

    Oops . . . THAN Cocoa Krispies. Where is my editor?

    Sep 15th, 2008

  3. james

    As a Mets fan, you are required to hate Pete Rose after what he did to poor Bud in the playoffs. There were a lot of other reason to dislike Pete.

    But respect his accomplishments on the field, you bet I did.

    I think at the end of the day, it is how much you value position. Jeter played short, even if he did it badly, and that means alot. I think it is close, but I give it to Pete by a nose.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  4. devil_fingers

    Great essay, as usual. A couple thoughts.

    1) I wonder about the doubles thing. A quick glance at baseball-reference seems to indicate, starting in his age 33 year (1974), that, yes, his doubles totals do increase a bit. Rose always a relatively high amount lots of doubles and triples. However, that same quick glance also shows that in those later years, he also hit a few less triples and home runs. I’m not impugning the “hustle” myth, but simply wondering if the doubles titles don’t say more about his decreasing HR power and triples speed (not necessarily a decrease in ISO, which was actually increasing and didn’t start to drop until after 1976 or so) than “wanting it” more. Just a tought.

    2) Jeter is overrated. Rose was too, but I still think he was a better player. Indeed, I think it’s more of a compliment to Jeter that someone would even think of the comparison, which I never did. It is quite apt. I like Jeter more than should, but I should say that I don’t necessarily find him as likable as I once did. It’s less because of the “overrrated stuff” (which is true, but, as I and others have pointed out, while he’s good at getting awards he doesn’t deserve [e.g., Gold Gloves], the same media that overrates him missed badly on two MVP votes he should have won — 1999 and 2006), than because as I get older I find his bed-hopping with models, actresses, etc. less entertaining and more dissolute. I’m a square, so sue me.

    Having said that, I’ll personally prefer Jeter to Rose, because, at the minimum, at least Jeter isn’t married. And that’s just the beginning. I don’t know what metric to use, but I’d say that while their overratedness might be equal, Rose is at least 100 times the jerk that Jeter is. So I guess Pete’s way “ahead” in the that category. The first 50 bets are the easy ones, Derek!

    Sep 15th, 2008

  5. ken

    “said much of what Rose did (the headfirst dives, the running to first base) was just show”

    That applies to Jeter as well. He constantly dives for balls that are hit up the middle. Its known that he doesn’t go to his left well, but he dives after the ball is already well past him. To me, that is all for show.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  6. Aaron M.

    I don’t care what anyone says, the play that Jeter made to get Giambi was crap. If Giambi slides he’s safe. If Art Howe pinch runs, there isn’t even a play and the throw comes to the middle infield.

    More than likely though, I just hate Jeter irrationally after being forced to notice his “greatness” millions of times along with all the other East Coast players (specifically NY and Boston). A-Rod excepted of course. A-Rod is the worst MLB player in history.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  7. Johnny

    I grew up in the Pete Rose era. I couldn’t stand him, though I admired his teams (and I will buy Joe’s book). Don’t think much of Rose now either. But I voted for him in the poll, and I think he should be in the Hall of Fame.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  8. Tyler

    Ooooh, great comparison between Jeter and Rose. Didn’t think I’d run across a comparison where I like Jeter more than someone else, but Rose is probably the only baseball player out there that I dislike more that Jeter. It kills me that Jeter still gets talked about as a “great team player” even though he was (is) unwilling to give up his glamour position for the betterment of the team or to embrace a teammate and thereby save him from some boos (which would in this case seem to negatively impact A-Rod’s production) just because of something (not really an insult either) A-Rod said in an article years and years ago. However, at least Jeter hasn’t destroys anybody’s career by needlessly crashing into them during an exhibition (All-Star) game, not to mention lying for years and then “coming clean” once it meant book profits and then expecting everybody just to forgive and forget while whining whenever somebody will listen about how you didn’t really do anything to deserve your fate. As you can tell by my tone and run on sentences I’m not a fan of either, but thoroughly enjoyed the comparison.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  9. Wayne Tollison

    Not to undermine Rose’s toughness or “hustle”-hoff, but how many times did he get thrown out trying to stretch a single into a double, or a double into a triple? His OBP and SLG still get credit, but he’s making outs on the basepaths

    Sep 15th, 2008

  10. Dan

    Thank you once again. This post as well as the ones on Beltran and Bo Jackson make me appreciate the greatness that I witness even if I didn’t always appreciate it at the time.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  11. Tyler

    Brilliant reader “DJ,” huh? Sounds to me like Jeter himself tried to pull a fast one on you. Not real good at coming up with aliases, are we Derek?

    Sep 15th, 2008

  12. Eric J

    Random stolen base percentage-related factoid:

    Jeter: 275 SB, 75 CS
    A-Rod: 282 SB, 67 CS

    I’d also say that A-Rod has been a more consistently effective basethief. Jeter has a few years where he went 11/5, or 14/7, or 23/12 (SB/CS). A-Rod only has one year like that, a 9/4 in 2002; apart from that, he’s at 75% or better every year since his first full season. Which is impressive.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  13. Andrew

    Forget Rose vs. Jeter. Here’s my challenge: the question is, “Who annoys you least?” and the choices are Jeter, Rose, and X.

    Can you come up with an “X” such that, in any public poll, X would not win going away? I tried it and failed. Carrot Top? Nope — still less annoying than Rose and Jeter. Charles Manson? More dangerous, perhaps, but not any more annoying. And so on.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  14. rdriley

    RE: The ones who are in the right place at the right time (like Posada).

    A great example of this (and I think I HAD to have thought about it for the first time after Bill Simmons wrote about it) was Dennis Johnson and the classic “There’s a steal by Bird … underneath to D.J. He lays it in!” moment from the 87 Eastern Conference Finals game between the Celtics and the Pistons.

    After the ball went out of bounds, Johnson starts to head upcourt to play defense, and then, suddenly, amazingly, he reverses himself and heads for the basket just as Bird steals the ball, and is in PERFECT position to take the pass and make the layup.

    A friend of mine at the time said he’d never gone from utter, crushing despair to uninhibited, crazy joy in such a short period of time.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  15. Bellylard

    Rose had the turf at home in the 70s, it seems like that would help a gap power/singles hitter a lot. It’s a little harder for Jeter to get into the top ten in categories with more teams/players. Especially true with the steroidical power numbers pushing high average/moderate patience hitters below the level of just average with big power/moderate patience + scared of power pitch arounds.

    Damn, my grandfather LOVED Pete Rose, it’s probably a good thing he died after the 1976 season. We had a bet on the World Series which we made in April of that year (little did he realize who that particular action was imitating). I had the Yankees and he had the Reds. He had the nerve to call ME a front-runner! It’s really the only bet I wish I could have paid off.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  16. Bellylard

    Andrew says:

    Forget Rose vs. Jeter. Here’s my challenge: the question is, “Who annoys you least?” and the choices are Jeter, Rose, and X.

    Manny B Manny?

    Sep 15th, 2008

  17. David

    There is a big change in Rose’s career in 1971 (well really June of 1970). The Reds moved out of Crosley Field and into Riverfront Stadium. He shifted from grass to astroturf and to very high symmetrical walls from the more unique outfield of Crosley.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  18. Glen

    I would never in a million years have wanted Pete Rose to be a part of my team…no place for him on the 1976 through 1985 Royals. Jeter, though, would have been a perfect fit for that team. I do think there is some sort of “A-hole Quotient” that Rose absolutely pegs off the chart…for whatever reason, I don’t perceive that in Jeter. Maybe because his excellence coincided with my team’s irrelevance…I can’t get too worked up about anyone else’s legitimate Major Leaguers when my franchise has had about three in total since Brett retired.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  19. devil_fingers

    RDRiley on Dennis Johnson:

    You know what else is awesome about that legendary Dennis Johnson play that Simmons always waxes poetic about? It didn’t really happen the way he describes it:

    http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2007/02/our-readers-even-bigger-assholes-than.html

    Sep 15th, 2008

  20. Josh in DC

    It seems to me, given the guys who batted behind Jeter over his career, he could have had an OBP of .300 and still scored 100 runs.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  21. Monkeyhawk

    “…the in-your-face Rose, the run-over-Ray-Fosse Rose, the run-to-first-base-on-a-walk Rose, the switch-hitting, double stretching, headfirst diving, double-play busting, Bud-Harrelson fighting, father admiring, often quotable, self-promotable, always notable Peter Edward Rose”

    Yeah. That guy.

    By Buck’s Law, that Pete Rose belongs in the Hall of Fame.

    By the way Buck O’Neil lived his life, the other Pete Rose deserves to be banned from baseball for life.

    I wish there were some way to put the first Pete Rose in the Hall, then cover up the plaque with a black curtain or something ’til the day he takes the big dirt nap.

    Ban him for life. But only that long.

    Numbers make my brain bleed. I’m glad somebody can crunch ‘em but the math lobe in my brain refuses to work.

    But I think about watching the first Rose play. I remember the comment from the ‘75 World Series where he just seemed to be thrilled to playing such a game. I saw a PBS special on Pavarotti the other night and while I’m not much of an opera buff, it was thrilling to see how much in awe he was and was delighted with this strange gift of a voice? What’s it like to live with Aretha Franklin’s voice? Joan Baez’s voice? Barry Sanders’ ability to see tacklers and not wind up where they were going?

    Rose was, as I recall, called “Charlie Hustle” as a disparaging remark from other players. His open delight in playing the game was out of fashion even in the 60s. Jeter is 21st Century cool about all the stuff he does; and while it’s not particularly colorful, the Earl Weaver school of “we do this every day” is probably a saner way to approach baseball. Not too high, not too low.

    It’s a cryin’ shame Pete’s need …to PLAY… lasted far longer than his abilities and so, led him to play in other ways. As impressive as breaking Cobb’s record is on paper, it’s sort of like Cal Ripkin’s streak when his daddy kept him in the line-up when another manager might have rested him for the good of the team.

    I’m a Kansas City baseball fan so my hatred of the New York Yankees is genetic. But I still like to watch Jeter play ball.

    I wish all we had was “the in-your-face Rose, the run-over-Ray-Fosse Rose, the run-to-first-base-on-a-walk Rose, the switch-hitting, double stretching, headfirst diving, double-play busting, Bud-Harrelson fighting, father admiring, often quotable, self-promotable, always notable Peter Edward Rose.”

    Someone should write a book about that guy.

    Or at least one of the teams he played on.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  22. Noam Sane

    My Nitpick of 2008

    “Rose, though, made up for a lot of that with his aggression”

    Was there a memo sent out to all sportswriters and sportscasters commanding that they replace the word “aggressiveness” with “aggression”?* I’ve been noticing that near 100% of the time “aggression” is the word used, even when it seems the wrong word. To me, “aggressiveness” is much more often the more appropriate word in describing sports, especially in baseball (unlike, say boxing or football). Aggression isn’t likely to be that apparent or useful in baseball, unless you’re charging the mound after getting plunked.

    * Kind of like a few years back when there must have been a memo sent to all pitchers, managers, and pitching coaches, instructing them to replace “control” with “command”

    That’s the way I define those two words anyway.
    “Aggression” is combativeness directed against another person/people.
    “Aggressiveness” is simply a much stronger version of “assertiveness”.

    That’s what I always thought. Maybe it’s too small a nit to pick.
    And I have to admit, when it comes to Pete Rose maybe “aggression” is often the correct word choice.

    oh and btw:
    Good call, RDRILEY, about the Dennis Johnson play re: right place right time.

    ————

    It’s a toss-up really but I voted for Jeter — Definitely so overrated that he’s underrated.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  23. Kenny

    On defense and switching positions,

    Jeter has cost his team innumerable wins (probably in the playoffs too), by not moving to 2B so A-Rod could play SS.

    Think of how close the 2004 ALCS was, could A-ROD’s elite, gold glove defense at SS have made a difference? ABSOLUTELY!

    Jeter’s selfishness and ego prevented the move (he wanted to be the SS for the yankees!).

    OK, I am a met fan, but still.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  24. Oddibe Kerfeld

    If Cecil Cooper does bodily harm to Bud Selig I will contribute to his legal defense fund. Was Wrigley not available? These “home” games in Milwaukee against the “Milwaukee Cubs” are the biggest farce I can remember in baseball. They could have played at Dell Diamond in Round Rock, TX, but Selig said it was a minor league stadium, though he let the A’s play in the minor league park in Las Vegas and the Expos in the minor league-like stadium in P.R. Even the Cubs fans I know are sheepish about these games being moved to their own backyard.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  25. michael

    “Jetes started the fistpump,end of story” - guy outside Yankee Stadium

    Sep 15th, 2008

  26. Joe

    You can go either way with Rose vs Jeter the ballplayer, there’s no contest on Rose vs Jeter the man. Jeter got my vote.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  27. G Young

    There were actually 3 great plays made - Giambi made a great play by beating the throw.

    Dude was safe.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  28. Adam

    He probably should have slid, but Jermey Giambi was safe on that play anyway and I will never not believe this.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  29. Shark

    Neither I nor anyone I went to college with (and we were VERY into sports) could STAND Pete Rose at any time, most especially the Big Red machine era. Always thought he was a total showboat, and wasn’t suprised in the slightest when all the gambling,cheating and lying stories came out. Of course he’d pick a fight with Bud Harrelson who he knew he could beat. He should be inducted immediately into the Hall of Fame the day after he dies. Jeter’s overhype and that smirky face (not to mention the team he plays for) means I can’t and never have been able to stand him either. So great comparision…..which piece of dung is the less smelly?

    Sep 15th, 2008

  30. B.E. Earl

    I’ve always respected the way Rose played the game back in the day. The similarities to Cobb aren’t only because of the number of hits each of them had.

    I love Jeter and he has brought to the Yankees, but I can see where the marjority feel as if he is overrated. Hell, i’m a fan and I think he’s overrated! I just can’t envision a Yankee team without him right now, though. And that’s gonna happen sometime in the not-so distant future.

    Giambi was out, though. Good call by the ump. I also will always believe this.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  31. Creston

    ”

    Random stolen base percentage-related factoid:

    Jeter: 275 SB, 75 CS
    A-Rod: 282 SB, 67 CS

    I’d also say that A-Rod has been a more consistently effective basethief. Jeter has a few years where he went 11/5, or 14/7, or 23/12 (SB/CS). A-Rod only has one year like that, a 9/4 in 2002; apart from that, he’s at 75% or better every year since his first full season. Which is impressive.
    ”

    Ah, but Jeter’s stolen bases are CLUTCH, and they help the team! It’s a well-established fact that no base ever stolen by A-Rod has ever helped his team in any circumstance. A-Rod also repeatedly runs into a triple play while trying to steal bases in the playoffs. (Only once he’s been brought in to pinch run, as A-Rod never gets on base in the playoffs by himself.)

    As for Jeter vs Rose, I dunno. I never really saw Rose play in his prime, so I gotta go by the stats. And the stats say that Jeter is a (slightly) better player. Isn’t that why we have stats to begin with?

    Sep 15th, 2008

  32. Creston

    “Forget Rose vs. Jeter. Here’s my challenge: the question is, “Who annoys you least?” and the choices are Jeter, Rose, and X.

    Can you come up with an “X” such that, in any public poll, X would not win going away?”

    Sure I can. X=Red Sox “Nation”. Or even better, X=Boston Sports “fans”*.

    *Tommy from Quinzee excepted.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  33. Alex

    Offense, defense and intagibles.

    I think you’ve shown that Pete Rose was a better offensive player, through age 34. Significantly but not overwhelmingly better.

    What about defense? How does a poor SS compare to an above-average 1B? I don’t know how to evaluate that. Does anyone? Is it a wash? Is SS so much harder and so much more important that even a poor SS is more valuable than an above-average 1B?

    And then, intangibles.

    Intantible #1: Did Rose motivate his teammates and help them with the grind? Or was he a cancer? I don’t think that chemistry is incredibly important, but its not irrelevent. How did Rose’s teammates feel about the SOB?

    Intangible #2: Jeter has been a New York player. I’m not Yankees fan, but I acknowledge that playing in NYC can really crush a guy. Jeter has gladly taken a lot of that extra attention and pressure, perhaps making it easier on some of his teammates. He’s been comfortable as the star in a town that will consume its stars and destroy them. I give him credit for that. Torre has been a big part of that, but so has Jeter’s consistent leadership. I hate him, but I can grant him that.

    Intangible #3: ARod. While I am willing to grant that Jeter has made life better for most of his teammates, he has not done the same for ARod. He has thrown him under the bus, and done nothing to make it easier for him. His own personal rivalry with ARod has cost the team. Whether it is about moving to 2B so the better SS could keep his position, or the less obvious stuff, this has NOT been the stuff of great leadership. Negative count, too.

    I don’t know enough about the internal workings of the Yankees to really figure out if Jeter has been a net negative or a net positive, in terms of his intangibles/leadership. And I don’t know enough about the Reds to judge Peter Rose. (Does anyone know a good book I might read about this?) But if there’s a big difference there, that could tip the scales.

    I am willing to say this, though: A decent amount of the Jeter mystique comes from the Yankees World Series wins, and that team won with a HUGE payroll advantage over the rest of the field*. In my view, no player should get extra credit because his team’s market and history allow a payroll advantage, or because his owner is more willing to buy better teammates.

    * Baltimore was actaully first for one Yankee championship. But there was a big gap to second, and beating Peter Angelos shouldn’t count for too much.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  34. popester

    New rule: You can’t talk about a great play without linking to it on youtube.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  35. Vin

    I probably say Rose, but by a hair. I even find him less annoying.

    Now, if the question were “who’s the bigger a-hole?” then, clearly, Rose wins. But Jeter annoys the hell out of me. The whole “I-wanna-be-Mr.-Yankee” bit. The sleeping around. Mostly, just the fact that he seems to act EXACTLY like some prototype of the big-city sports superstar - smooth, cool, collected, plays the game hard but doesn’t do anything to offend anyone. I once told a friend of mine that Derek Jeter might as well be a robot. Seriously, if they made, say, the Baseball Superstar-Bot 4000, it would act almost exactly like Derek Jeter. It would probably even look like him. Rose might’ve been a liar, and a cheat, and showboat, but at least he was interesting.

    OK, so I grew up a Mets fan in the 90s, so I’m probably a little biased on this one…

    Sep 15th, 2008

  36. Vin

    Oh, and how about “X = Dane Cook.” Man, I can’t stand Dane Cook.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  37. EdB

    Jeter doesn’t embarrass himself (except when going to his left) or his team, plays hard, takes losing hard, and with the exception of his dealings with ARod, he seems to be a decent teammate.

    As a New Yorker, I remember that Jeter did a lot with families of 9/11 victims after that event, and he remains pretty active here with his charitable foundation. Granted, it helps his rep, sure, but it also does plenty of good in this city (and others). So if we’re measuring people (and not ballplayers), it’s hard not to give Jeter an edge over the always-insufferable Rose.

    Though I voted for Pete the player.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  38. Daniel

    That should be Enos “Country” Slaughter, not “County.”

    Sep 15th, 2008

  39. Phil Gurnee

    Jeter gets hit for sleeping around??? Are you guys kidding me, like you wouldn’t be loving to live his lifestyle instead of figuring out how to cover the bald spots.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  40. Don

    I love Joe and hate to disagree with him. However, back in the 70’s, Reggie Jackson was the most loved/hated man. Pete Rose does not compare to Reggie in this category.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  41. Steve from Cleve

    So wait, we appreciate Pete Rose for ruining Fosse’s career? I guess we just love those “hard-nosed” guys like Pete Rose and Carl Mays, right?

    Kelly Shoppach runs to first base after he walks, and to my knowledge he never bet on baseball, put himself into a lineup card to break a record he didn’t deserve to break or ruin Max Ramirez’s career by barrelling into him during a spring training game, so how about we start worshipping him instead?

    Sep 15th, 2008

  42. Damon Rutherford

    So you do the Cocoa Krispies vs. Cocoa Pebbles poll, but not Kit Kat vs. Twix!?

    Perhaps it’s because you know Kit Kat will lose.

    (No offense, Kit Kat, as I enjoy you as well, but Twix is simply better.)

    Sep 15th, 2008

  43. Johnny

    “However, back in the 70’s, Reggie Jackson was the most loved/hated man. Pete Rose does not compare to Reggie in this category.”

    This is true. Pete Rose was mostly beloved, just as Steve Garvey was considered to be an outstanding family man.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  44. AlbaNate

    As a Met fan who’s old enough to remember Rose when he was still Rose, I can’t say I ever had much appreciation for the guy. All the Met fans I knew back then hated him. And it wasn’t just about Ray Fosse and Bud Harrelson. Didn’t Pat Zachary break his foot or something kicking the dugout steps after giving up a hit to Rose duriing his big hitting streak?

    Again, as a Mets fan, I’ve never had much appreciation for Jeter either. I don’t dislike Jeter in quite the same way that I disliked Rose…I’m mostly just tired of hearing about him.

    As for who’s better, I’d probably go with Rose. I looked at the baseball-reference.com pages for both of them, and what finally made me pick Rose was the similarity scores. There are a decent number of players with similarity scores over 800 for Jeter, but the similarity scores for Rose are really low. The highest is only 678, and there are only three other players over 600. I’m not sure that I’ve ever seen such low similarity scores. I realize that the similarity is not really a great stat, but it does point out what a unique player Rose was.

    Nate

    Sep 15th, 2008

  45. Floyd

    More intangibles:

    Fewer teams when Rose started so the pitching wasn’t so diluted.

    Rose played a few seasons before the mound was lowered.

    If Rose played in New York we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  46. Aaron

    One of the interesting myths about Jeter is that he is “clutch” and “rises to the occasion”. I’m not a huge fan of the general debate on the existence of clutch, but persuing Fangraphs I did notice something interesting (follow my name link for Jeter’s page).

    The Win Probability Added (WPA) stat measures “the change in Win Expectancy for an offensive play” and includes adjustment for leverage (thus valuing important plays more highly). There is also the context-neutral version, WPA/LI, that removes the leverage adjustment. Subtracting the latter from WPA, you get “CLUTCH” indicating how much better a player’s actual contribution is in high leverage situations compared to a context-neutral environment. Basically, how much more than a “1st inning” play did his performance help his team win.

    For his career in the regular season, Derek Jeter has indeed been clutch to the tune of 2.57 “wins”, although this value is derived from his 2006 MVP-caliber season almost in its entirety (2.31 that season alone).

    For his career in the the postseason, Derek Jeter is actually unclutch (and has been so every playoff series since 2002) for a total value of -0.87. For comparison’s sake, that choke artist Alex Rodriguez is at 0.37 for his playoff career.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  47. Floyd

    Call me when Jeter gets 4,000 hits.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  48. Jerry

    It seems to me like most of the anti-Jeter sentiment is jealosy. What single shortstop, other than A-Rod, would you rather have on your team from 1996-present? There isn’t one that has been this productive for this long over that span. This “off-year” for him has him hitting over .300, and passing Lou Gehrig (!) for most hits in Yankee Stadium history. Think about that - most hits in Yankee Stadium history. I read all of these defensive stats, but I’ve watched more than 1000 of his games and it’s hard for me to think he’s such a bad shortstop when I see guys like Orlando Cabrera and David Eckstein and Nomar Garciaparra rated ahead of him over the years, among others who don’t seem to me to be nearly as good. I’ll take Jeter and what he has meant to being a Yankee fan for 13 years and you can have whoever else you want.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  49. Matt

    “For his career in the the postseason, Derek Jeter is actually unclutch (and has been so every playoff series since 2002) for a total value of -0.87. For comparison’s sake, that choke artist Alex Rodriguez is at 0.37 for his playoff career.

    I think the clutchiness statistic from Fangraphs tells us a fair bit about what we think of as clutch in the regular season, but it doesn’t correlate well with what we (or at least I) think of as clutch in the postseason. If anything the closest to postseason clutch is postseason WPA, having stats that overvalue the value of ones production in the postseason isn’t really unclutch if the players batting still has significantly positive WPA. In other words when we discuss clutch in the postseason we are not discussing the performance in relative leverage of postseason at bats, we are discussing total postseason performance relative to regular season performance.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  50. Richard Aronson

    Pete Rose’s lifetime stealing numbers: 198 SB, 149 CS. After age 34: 40 SB, 36 CS. Pete Rose was never about helping his team win. He kept on trying to steal bases even after he was hurting his team by so doing. He was always about doing things that made Rose look good, hustling even when he got thrown out, pursuing the hits total even after he was no longer an effective hitter. Six of his last seven seasons he had an OPS+ under 100 even though he was playing first base, generally the best offensive position on the field. I hated Rose for being a selfish player, for being a stupid player, for caring more about his reputation and legacy than about helping his team win games. I did not hate anybody else on the Reds; I loved watching Bench, Morgan was superb, Concepcion was exciting, Perez and Foster and Driessen (for some reason, I only remember Reds hitters) all struck me as inoffensive at worst. But I hated Rose.

    Did Rose earn entry into the HOF? Yes. Clearly. And then he threw it away for his inability to follow baseball’s rule one.

    Is Jeter selfish for not moving over and letting a clearly better fielder play shortstop? That’s an interesting question. I used to think so. And then, as I get more contemplative, I think back to my days as a third sacker. Some guys just couldn’t play third base. There is a certain fearlessness needed there more than any other position, the willingness to take line drives and bad hops to the body in order to keep the play in front of you and still get the out at first. Some folks bruise easier than others, break easier than others. Nomar Garciaparra the last couple of years has been terrible, beyond terrible, at third base. But as a shortstop this year, he hasn’t looked terrible. He looks like he knows what he’s doing, he’s in the right position. He’s slow, but he’s not lost like he is at third. And it could well be that ARod has what it takes to move over to third base, and Jeter doesn’t. Because I have to look at Jeter’s playing shortstop in context: Jeter is noted as being a smart player, an unselfish player. And if he can’t play third, I’m not sure he’d ever admit it.

    Jeter does what he does to help the Yankees win. I have zero doubt, absolutely none, that if Jeter makes a bad out running to third base (you know the old adage, never make the first or last out of the inning at third base) it took an exceptional fielding play, but with Rose, he would try for any base, any time, confident that even if he got thrown out and cost his team a chance to score it would only enhance the reputation of Charlie Hustle. Jeter is an effective base stealer. Rose wasn’t. Jeter’s career shows that he knows the value of taking a couple of days off throughout the season; he has never played more than 159 games in a season. Rose has 10 seasons of 160 or more games, including two seasons of 162 games with an OPS+ under 100. Playing when he should sit is just part of the Charlie Hustle mystique.

    The more I compare the two, the more respect I have for Derek Jeter. I still think Rose was the better player, at least at the same age. But I think one was more involved with winning, the other with personal records. And even though Rose played a lot longer, including “helping” the Phillies win the series in 1980, Jeter already has more World Series rings. When Rose was 34, his teams had won one World Series title and lost two. Jeter has a better post season OPS (.846 to .828). And Jeter in the postseason was an 80% base stealer: stole 16, caught 4. Rose: stole 2, caught 5. Team goals versus personal goals.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  51. Blackadder

    Joe really has a remarkable talent for saying interesting things about topics that seem completely saturated.

    FWIW, here are the top five seasons for each by Dan R’s WARP2, which is the best Uber-stat out there:

    Rose: 6.8, 6.4, 6.2, 5.9, 5.9

    Jeter: 8.8, 6.5 (guess for his 2006), 6.3, 6.1, 5.5

    It is worth mentioning that the fielding portion of his system has a pretty low standard deviation, which obviously helps Jeter. Overall, it’s pretty close, but I think that Jeter’s 1999 breaks the tie; it is the only season either player has had that is truly at an inner-circle hall of fame level (Ted Williams, for example, average 8.8 WARP2 per full season).

    Of course, Rose has all sorts of career value on Jeter, and unless this year is an aberration his odds of catching Rose aren’t great. But just looking at them at their best, I think I would take Jeter.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  52. Steve from Cleve

    Blackadder:

    Did something recently happen to BP’s WARP2/WARP3 numbers? Like, did they change the methodology? I ask because current players just took a MASSIVE hit in WARP2/WARP3. A certain player X who figures heavily in HoF debates just got his WARP3 slashed in half.

    Sep 15th, 2008

  53. B.E. Earl

    Like someone else mentioned up there, I can’t believe Jeter has taken a couple of hits here in the comments for “sleeping around”.

    He’s single, lives in NY and isn’t cheating on my sister. I don’t give a damn who he sleeps with!

    Sep 15th, 2008

  54. Kirk

    Joe, loved the comparison. It’s fun to read the classic Mays vs. Mantle, but even better to come up with new ones. The twist in this comparison is that the two guys played different positions. The most iconic comparison might include different outfield position players being pitted against one another, i.e. Williams vs. Dimaggio, but seldom in a way to compare a SS to other positions, unless that man has a first name of Honus. Off the top of my head regarding current players, I immediately think of cool comparisons of [Juan Gone vs. Albert Belle vs. Vlad Guerrero], [David Ortiz vs. Mo Vaughn], or [Ron Santo vs. Jeff Kent], [Piazza vs. Pudge] and so on. I would like to see arguments on all those, but even more curious to see players with different positions and how we evaluate them. In other words, bring on Piazza vs. Vlad!

    Sep 15th, 2008

  55. Jimmy

    I would like to request that Coco Crisp be added to the above poll.

    Sep 16th, 2008

  56. Pete R (but not Rose)

    Don Zimmer was once asked about Jeter’s “pure instinct” play on Giambi. He politely pointed out that that was how the coaches had drawn the play up in spring training: what else could the shortstop do, apart from stand still uselessly?

    Still, credit to Jeter for executing it correctly. But let’s not make him out to be some kind of freelancer.

    Sep 16th, 2008

  57. Eric J

    Floyd:

    The talent pool drawn from by MLB has expanded a lot since Rose played. The expansion argument is probably just about a wash.

    Joe already mentioned that Rose played in scarcer scoring conditions, which are accounted for in OPS+.

    Sep 16th, 2008

  58. William

    While OPS+ takes into account scoring environments, it kind of hits a snag in the steroid era. I think you have to ask yourself, do you think Jeter was taking them? If not, then you have to bump up your evaluation of any stat that compares Jeter to his peers. A clean Jeter with an OPS+ of 121 might actually be more impressive than Rose’s OPS+126. That is probably worth considering before trying to figure out whether a below average shortstop (as an aside, Jeter is doing very well this season by RZR standards) is better than an average 1B/OF/3B (and who knows, if there zone rating based systems back then, maybe Rose would also have rated poorly).

    Sep 16th, 2008

  59. Brian

    It’s tough for me to vote for which was better between cocoa pebbles and cocoa krispies because I thought they were both bad. If you’re going cocoa, you gotta go with the puffs.

    Sep 16th, 2008

  60. Blackadder

    Sorry, that is not BP WARP, that is Dan R’s WARP, which he posts over at Baseball Think Factory. He really should find a new name for it! I like it a lot more than BP’s version because it, among other things, has a much more realistic replacement level.

    BP changes their methodology all the time, so it is certainly possible that someone took a big hit recently. Honestly, their WARP1 -> WARP2 adjustments are so opaque that you are better off looking at WARP1 and then time-lining “manually” if you feel like it.

    Sep 16th, 2008

  61. john q public

    I am pretty sure I remember hearing a Yankee talk about the Jeter play.
    The reason that Posada didn’t move is that it was a designed play-Jeter was supposed to be the backup to the backup, he was where he was supposed to be.

    Now, that said, how many people actually are going to be there? Its one thing to plan to be the third line of defense, but to pull it off, in that situation, the way Jeter did?
    It was the greatest playoff play that I ever saw.

    And in the interest of full disclosure, i am a die hard Red Sox fan so I possess no Jeter bias.

    Sep 16th, 2008

  62. David in NYC

    I have to agree with Ken’s assessment of Jeter’s diving for show.

    Long before we had statistical proof of his less-than-mediocre fielding, I would tell people that my primary memory of Jeter on defense is a ground ball up the middle, Jeter making a lovely dive for it, the ball going at least a foot past his glove, and the announcers talking about what a “great effort” Jeter had just made. In the meantime, the play is not made and the runner is on first base. How interesting that, much later, we found out that Jeter’s biggest failing defensively is ground balls to his left. (BTW, has anyone EVER seen Jeter dive to get a ball and then get to his feet to make the play? EVER?)

    Then there is his “patented” (sic) move of going deep in the hole to his right, jumping in the air in his best Baryshnikov imitation, pirouetting and throwing to first; again giving the announcers cause to get their knickers in a bunch. Any Little League coach can tell you that that is the WRONG way to make that play. You should stop and plant the right foot so that you can get something on the throw.

    And as for the “Greatest Play in History™” — sheesh, what an awful lot of crap has been said and written about this, which is probably the single most overplayed and overrated moment in baseball history.

    Joe wonders “WHY [Posada] waited at home plate when the ball was way over in foul ground.” Well, that would be because the ball wasn’t in foul terrritory, it was heading straight for Posada. In fact, it was practically bouncing down the foul line, on a straight line to Posada. Jeter did NOT change the direction of the ball.

    What he did do was STOP the ball, pick it up, switch to the other hand, and then flip it backhanded to Posada. Anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of physics can tell you that the time it took Jeter to take these actions is significantly LONGER than the time it would have taken the ball to get to Posada without Jeter’s interference. And, in fact, Posada said in the immediate post-game interview that Giambi would have been out ANYWAY! Why do we never hear about that nowadays?

    (As an aside, I do have to agree with the assessment of the Bird-DJ play for the Celtics. One of my favorite NBA moments of all time, with the added benefit of Isiah Thomas being the victimized Piston. I hated him even before he totally screwed up the Knicks.)

    Same thing with the dive into the stands against the Red Sox. Jeter had already caught the ball; diving/falling into the stands only indicated that he was out of control. Nice that he held onto the ball, but that doesn’t make it a great catch. It wasn’t.

    Interesting that we have more stuff on Mr. Overrated; it was a link at the New York Times Bats blog to “Jeterate” that first started me reading this blog.

    Sep 16th, 2008

  63. Jeff Wright

    You left one thing out, Joe. Rose was an obnoxious equine rectum, and Jeter’s not.

    Sep 16th, 2008

  64. Brent

    Sorry Joe, but I am not going to give Peter Edward credit for playing long after he should have retired, which, by doing so as you do artificially raising his 162 game averages vs. Jeter. Looking forward, I fully anticipate DJ retiring long before he routinely puts in sub 100 OPS+ years, thus his career 162 game averages will end up better than Rose’s. Probably a lot better.

    Sep 16th, 2008

  65. Eric J

    Brent,

    Comparing Rose and Jeter through the same point in their careers isn’t “giving Rose credit for playing after he should have retired.” It’s a good way of comparing their primes, which is basically what Joe is doing. Using pure 162-game averages would penalize Rose for having played an entire career (and yes, longer than he could play in a way that helped his team); it’s not a good way to compare a retired player to an active 34-year-old, whether he played for too long or not.

    Sep 16th, 2008

  66. Kyle K

    1) Count me as part of the “Jeremy Giambi was safe” contingent. I still think Posada sweeps his tag to the back of Giambi’s leg after he touched home.

    2) I still don’t buy the yankees claim that Jeter is supposed to be the “back up to the back up”. A SS’s job is to cover 2B on a ball to right field. The 1b, 2b and pitcher are the relay men and back up. I don’t buy for one second that Don Zimmer is some psychic that knew that Shane Spencer was gonna airmail his throw, and intentionally positioned Jeter to that spot. Jeter should be at 2B, so Long couldn’t wander to far from 2b, and try to take 3b on the throw home. If the play were called correctly, and Giambi was safe, Long could have taken third on Jeter’s misplay.

    3) I too don’t understand why Rose ruining Fosse’s career in a meaningless game is held as a point in his favor. Passion and intensity are great in competitive sport, but at the end of the day it’s still a game. Not knowing where that line in the sand is….that’s not a positive in my book.

    Sep 16th, 2008

  67. Creston

    “A decent amount of the Jeter mystique comes from the Yankees World Series wins, and that team won with a HUGE payroll advantage over the rest of the field*”

    When they won their WS titles, the Yankees did not have the highest payroll, IIRC. Not in any of those years.

    Once they started heavily outspending the competition, they stopped winning World Series titles (because Brian Cashman can not in any way, shape or form evaluate pitchers).

    So saying that they won with a HUGE payroll advantage is not true. They simply won because they were an excellent team.

    Sep 16th, 2008

  68. Creston

    “(BTW, has anyone EVER seen Jeter dive to get a ball and then get to his feet to make the play? EVER?)”

    You mean to his left? Not many times, no. To his right absolutely. He’ll make the play very occasionally to his left, but it’s definitely rare.

    “Then there is his “patented” (sic) move of going deep in the hole to his right, jumping in the air in his best Baryshnikov imitation, pirouetting and throwing to first; again giving the announcers cause to get their knickers in a bunch. Any Little League coach can tell you that that is the WRONG way to make that play. You should stop and plant the right foot so that you can get something on the throw.”

    In your bitterness, you seem to fail to mention that Jeter does make the out on the play fairly often. It’s fine to bash Jeter for plays to his left, but to his right he’s actually pretty decent.

    “And as for the “Greatest Play in History™” — sheesh, what an awful lot of crap has been said and written about this, which is probably the single most overplayed and overrated moment in baseball history.”

    Most. Overrated. Moment. In. Baseball. History.

    Okay…

    Did Jeter pee in your beer one night or something?

    Sep 16th, 2008

  69. Ben

    Can someone please give me their reasoning behind Cocoa Krispies being better than Cocao Pebbles?

    Sep 16th, 2008

  70. David in NYC

    According to Baseball Almanac, the Yankees had the highest payroll in MLB each of their 4 WS years except for 1998, when the Orioles outspent them by $207,223.

    In the other years, they outspent the 2nd-highest payroll in the AL by 11.6% (1996), 13.9% (1999), and 13.6%. Not quite the same gap as in later, less successful, years, but still significant.

    Sep 16th, 2008

  71. James

    I’m not sure comparing strikeout totals from different eras is “fair” or simple either. The further back you go, it seems the less people struck out. Take for instance yogi berra, a “bad ball” hitter to boot right? He never struck out more than 38 times, averaging less 25 times a year and in 1950, he struck out only 12 times in 597 at bats! Only 7 of the top 50 all time strikeout leaders (batters) come from before 1986 as well and looking at the year by year strikeout leaders seems like a countdown going back in time. Small point, but something to it, I think…

    Sep 16th, 2008

  72. David in NYC

    Creston:

    Not to get into a pissing contest with you (pun intended), but…

    – Jeter is actually worse to his right than he is to his left (believe it or not), according to Bill James Online (-43 to his right, -25 to his left, for the last 3 years). I have never seen him dive to his right and catch the ball, much less get up and make the play.

    – So he gets the out (sometimes) when he does his ballet act. He is still (a) not doing it right, (b) reducing his chances of getting the out, (c) setting a bad example for impressionable kids everywhere, and (d) primarily interested in looking good, not playing well (same as with his beautiful, and completely useless, dives to his left).

    – And if the Giambi flip is not the most overplayed, overrated moment in BB history, tell me what you think is. I notice you completely ignored the observation by Posada, who presumably should know better than anyone, that Giambi would have been out anyway, without the showboating of DJ.

    Look, I have said before (and on this blog; different post) that Jeter will be — deservedly — a 1st-ballot HoF inductee. In conversations with my baseball buddies, I have compared his offensive abilities to Mickey Mantle, which is about as much praise as I can give (not having seen Babe Ruth play). I KNEW, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he would hit a HR to win game 4 of the 2001 World Series; in fact, I called it, out loud, as soon as the Yankees tied the game.

    But he is not the 2nd coming of God, he can’t play shortstop very well, he threw A-Rod under the bus to keep his position, and he seems to be Mr. Teflon as far as any criticism is concerned. Whether or not he pissed in my beer is irrelevant (in fact, I don’t even drink beer); what is relevant is that I have been following baseball intensely for over 50 years, and I know overrated when I see it. Derek Jeter is overrated.

    Why else did Joe coin the word “jeterate”?

    Sep 16th, 2008

  73. Aryeh

    With regard to the Triple totals, which are one of Rose’s major advantages, I think it’s fair to point out that the significantly larger ballparks of the ’70’s with deeper fences and much more foul ground were a big factor in promoting more triples back then.

    Sep 16th, 2008

  74. Damon Rutherford

    You can’t add Cocoa Puffs after the poll has started!

    I want my vote back.

    Sep 16th, 2008

  75. Josh in DC

    For anyone who says that Jeter deserves points because New York is such a tough place to play … I mean … argh … are they same people aware that New Yorkers defend Jeter’s greatness and overlook his obvious flaws as a defensive player to such a ridiculous extent? I mean … can’t … form … sentence.

    I was at an Orioles-Yankees game, back in 2002 or so. I shouted “Nomar’s better” during a Jeter at bat or during warmups or something. And about 30 people started yelling at me. The man is immune from criticism from everyone except Joel Sherman. He gets a freer ride than Sarah Palin on Hannity’s show, I tells ya.

    He’s a great player. But don’t throw out that “New York is such a tough place to play” crap. Not for Jeter it isn’t. He’s above criticism, and has been since his rookie year.

    Sep 16th, 2008

  76. Tiki

    Before I respond to a few of the uninformed comments about Jeter and then the debate, let me just say - though not in numbers - I could make a better case for A-Rod being more like Pete Rose than Derek Jeter is. Like Charlie Hustle, (who A-Rod regularly consults on his hitting) A-Rod is a “me and my numbers” guy and not a team guy who has had more than his share of bush-league plays.

    Response to some of the uninformed comments re: Jeter:

    1) Jeter, not just Zimmer, has often said that he was there for the Giambi play because that was where he was supposed to be per his coaches. It’s the old question as to why Lou Piniella was able to catch the Fred Lynne ball (Bucky Dent game). Whether it’s because that was the play or because they both have a high baseball IQ, they both deserve respect for making the plays.
    2) Jeter was never asked to move from SS but the truth is that A-Rod has filled out in a way that would make him less agile than he was and therefore would have no longer made a great SS.
    3) A-Rod absolutely did disparage Jeter in Esquire. While Jeter acknowledges what a talented player A-Rod is A-Rod was and still is jealous of Jeter’s 4 rings.

    Rose vs. Jeter - while because of similar numbers it may make for an interesting debate, it’s a flawed debate, they played in different decades, at different positions, and in VERY different markets. There are many great players - for other teams - that would not (and have not) been able to be great players in NY.

    Mr. Posnanski, I respectfully say, you really do appear to be obsessed with Derek Jeter.

    As for most of the comments, as expected, the negative comments seem to come from Mets fans or from fans that don’t watch Derek Jeter enough to make a non-biased opinion; Yankee-hatred clearly taints people’s views. Remember, Jeter came up as a Yankee and didn’t always earn a lot of money (including his All-Star and WS MVP season) - it’s the Yankee FA’s and their exorbitant salaries that causes so much negativity.
    One interesting thing that I think you would find between Yankee fans and Red Sox fans is the mutual respect for most of their great players.
    So, the problem with this particular debate or any debate comparing Jeter to any past player is that Derek Jeter is presently the captain of the (hated) NY Yankees and therefore, can’t be and isn’t a fair debate.

    Sep 16th, 2008

  77. markspark

    Huge Yankee fan here. I love Jeter. I grew up watching baseball in the mid to late seventies. To be honest I hated Pete Rose then. But I appreciate him now. If I had to choose between the two in their primes, I’d go with Rose. That’s no slight to Jeter. It’s just Pete Rose was Pete Rose. Anybody under the age of 35 just wouldn’t understand.

    Sep 16th, 2008

  78. Damon Rutherford

    I’m under 35 and understand.

    Sep 16th, 2008

  79. Justin

    Seeing Josh in DC and Tiki’s comments back-to-back illustrates the Jeter argument perfectly. I don’t think anyone could argue that Jeter isn’t an excellent baseball player, a first-ballot Hall-of-Famer, or an outstanding hitter who plays a demanding position on the field (I won’t crack open the debate as to how well he does or does not play that position).

    However, there’s a major disconnect between Yankee fans, who are spoon-fed all kinds of talk playing up Jeter’s abilities and glossing over his flaws, and fans of other teams. As a fan of another team, there’s only so much fawning over Jeter that one can take before you feel obligated to point out that he doesn’t live up to the hype. In fairness, given the amount of hype, no one realistically could.

    I think the disconnect is magnified by the harsh ride A-Rod’s gotten in New York. I have little doubt that a huge number of Yankee fans never warmed up to the guy largely because he dared to slight Jeter in Esquire years ago. It could have blown over if Jeter had taken one for the team and made an effort to gloss things over, or at least appear to defuse the powderkeg in public, but he didn’t. Still, despite letting a teammate get run down repeatedly and refusing to change positions just so as to keep his own ego intact, Jeter’s rep as the consummate team player remains pristine.

    People who aren’t subject to the Derek Jeter hype machine can see very clearly that A-Rod’s been a better player since he arrived in New York, yet Jeter still gets all the glowing kudos and A-Rod’s the one who’s faulted for making the team lose. Hell, Rodriguez outperformed Jeter in last year’s ALDS by a large measure, yet after the Yanks were eliminated, all the talk was about how A-Rod hit a home run “when it didn’t matter.”

    Hypothetical postseason series: Jeter goes 1-for-25, with his one hit coming in the bottom of the ninth in game seven with the Yanks trailing by one and A-Rod goes 24-for-25 with his one out coming in that inning after the opposing centerfielder made a leaping, over-the-wall catch to end the last game. Under those circumstances, I’m sure there would still be some who would extol Jeter for coming through when it counted most and boo A-Rod for choking.

    So yeah, Jeter’s a rare case. Those who like him overrate him more than any baseball player I’ve ever personally seen (let’s be honest - would he be viewed anywhere near as highly if he’d played virtually anywhere other than New York or maybe Boston?), but even those who pay closer attention to what he actually does on the field don’t evaluate him properly. Those people (a group to which I belong), are so tired of him being all-too-often portrayed as the single greatest ballplayer in the world that we diminish what he can do, almost as if by counteracting the ridiculous amount of love he gets elsewhere, we can somehow balance the scales.

    Sep 16th, 2008

  80. Mitcho

    This adds nothing to the discussion (perhaps it will even take away from it), but the comments about Jeter’s D brought to mind a line I read at some forgotten website years ago: “Future civilizations, in studying baseball broadcasts, will come to the conclusion that Jeter’s first name was ‘Pastadiving’, as in, ‘ground ball up the middle, Pastadiving Jeter and into centerfield.’”

    Sep 16th, 2008

  81. Rob

    It’s all fine and good to talk about what a great play Jeter made against Oakland and “Juicy Junior” Giambi, but the bottom line is that Giambi was actually safe on that play, but no Pinstripe lover will ever admit to it. And Giambi sealed his own fate on that play with no slide.

    Sep 16th, 2008

  82. Rob

    Oh, and Mitch—”pastadiving” is hilarious!!!

    Sep 16th, 2008

  83. greg

    Who’s better? Gotta give the edge to the only one of this twosome who will end up in the Hall of Fame.

    Jeter it is.

    (and for the last time, yes, Rose’s play clearly puts him in the Hall. But he broke the one, yes, ONE rule that keeps you out. It’s not his “right” to be in the Hall. His decisions, his consequences. Too bad for you Pete. No one to blame but yourself. Quit your whining and go sign some baseballs.)

    Sep 16th, 2008

  84. Tyler

    Specifically to Tiki, but to anybody else better informed than I, can somebody please elaborate on the specifics of the Esquire “dis” from A-Rod. My rememberance was that A-Rod said something to the effect that comparing him and Jeter wasn’t apples to apples because Jeter was a “number 2 type hitter”, and that this was intersperced with some glowing comments about the relationship between the two of them.

    As for A-Rod “filling out” too much to be an effective SS, this to me is a ludicrous argument. The whole point is that A-Rod was one of the best, if not the best defensive SS in the game when he made the move versus Jeter who was (is) one of the worst if not the worst defensive SS. Do you really think that A-Rod’s body has “filled out” that much that his defense would slip below Jeter’s? I would argue that the very floor for A-Rod’s defense (at least until he approaches his 40s) would be at worst equivalent to what Jeter has done while A-Rod has been around.

    Finally, of course A-Rod is jealous of Jeter’s rings. He has often declared that his greatest wish is to win a World Series; why wouldn’t he be envious of Jeter’s 4 rings? If I was in A-Rod’s shoes (ha I wish), I know I wouldn’t wish to trade my career straight up for Jeter’s, and I’m not sure what A-Rod would want in his heart of hearts, but I at least think it is possible that he would make that trade, and to me that defines his wish to win over any personal accomplishments. Of course what A-Rod should really wish for is that he was drafted by the Yankees in which case I think he’d have more than 4 rings to his name.

    Sep 16th, 2008

  85. Mikey

    “Most. Overrated. Moment. In. Baseball. History.”

    Interesting topic for a post or a poll.

    I’ll nominate two: Ruth’s called shot and The Shot Heard Round The World

    Sep 16th, 2008

  86. Mikey

    Egged on by this post, I pulled a ranking of the top 200 OPS+ seasons ever by a shortstop.

    Jeter has 2 of the top 100 and 8 of the top 200

    Twelve players have more of the top 100 seasons: Wagner, Vaughan, A-Rod, Banks, Larkin, Trammell, Cronin, Vern Stephens, Ripken, Boudreau, Nomar, Yount.

    Three have more of the top 200: Wagner, Vaughan, Cronin. A-Rod would obviously have more had he continued playing SS.

    I have to admit I’ve overrated Jeter offensively. I would have argued for him as one of the top five offensive SS of all-time. Now I’d have to say he’s more like borderline top ten.

    Sep 16th, 2008

  87. John R

    It’s a small flake in this snowstorm, but Tiki says:
    the negative comments seem to come from Mets fans or from fans that don’t watch Derek Jeter enough to make a non-biased opinion

    Because people who watch Jeter play every day couldn’t possibly be biased? The you-have-to-watch-this-player-every-day-to-understand-his-greatness meme must be retired. It’s a last-grasp appeal for authority and intended as a conversation ended.

    Sep 16th, 2008

  88. Will

    Using OPS+ seasons in a certain range to determine who was the better player is silly. For starters, is a 99th best season really much better than 101, etc.? Also, OPS+ can fluctuate in individual seasons…the stat is more reliable in larger samples. The logical way to compare players is to take their career totals.

    Below is an OPS+ ranking of all SS who had at least 4,000 PAs and played at least 60% of their games at SS (generous criteria that isn’t favorable to Jeter). On that list, Jeter ranks 5th.

    Player - OPS+ - PAs

    1 Honus Wagner 152 9640
    2 Alex Rodriguez 148 9040
    3 Arky Vaughan 136 7721
    4 Nomar Garciaparra 124 5933
    5 Derek Jeter 121 9066
    6 Lou Boudreau 120 7023
    7 Vern Stephens 119 7240
    8 Joe Cronin 119 8838
    9 Barry Larkin 116 9057
    10 Carlos Guillen 113 4578

    Sep 16th, 2008

  89. Will

    The level to which so many people get preoccupied with Jeter is a little bewildering. Sure Yankee fans blow him out of proportion, but why shouldn’t they. He may not be the second coming, but he is a home grown, first ballot Hall of Famer who has played on 4 championship teams. He is also a very dignified and classy ball player who also has a celebrity mystique. In other words, he is the perfect candidate for excessive adulation. I really don’t see why fans of other teams feel the need to counter balance that. Jeter is no more overrated than Ripken, yet no one feels the need to point out his flaws. Ultimately, I think it’s a matter of jealousy and hatred for the Yankees, which quite frankly, is a good thing. When people stop hating the Yankees it means they have become irrelevant.

    Sep 16th, 2008

  90. Bunting

    “However, there’s a major disconnect between Yankee fans, who are spoon-fed all kinds of talk playing up Jeter’s abilities and glossing over his flaws, and fans of other teams. As a fan of another team, there’s only so much fawning over Jeter that one can take before you feel obligated to point out that he doesn’t live up to the hype. In fairness, given the amount of hype, no one realistically could.”

    This is true of some Yankee fans, too. Following the team doesn’t mean we’re all vulnerable to Michael Kay’s hypnosis routine re: the Captain; I like Jetes a lot, but I get as sick of the St. Derek nonsense as anyone in Chicago would.

    As a fan of another team, you can count yourself lucky you didn’t have to hear the non-dang-stop references to his breaking Gehrig’s hits-in-Yankee-Stadium record all fling-flang weekend. Oy, Kay: WE GOT IT.

    Sep 16th, 2008

  91. Gate

    As a Red Sox fan, I’ve hated quite a few Yankees in my life (see O’Neil, Paul), but I have to say I’ve always respected Jeter. It certainly is clear that he has been a below average ss for a number of years now (in the last series against the Sox I enjoyed watching a 14 hopper scrape just under his outstretched glove), but I don’t expect most players to volunteer themselves out of positions like that; that’s down to management. 2 Things though:

    1. I haven’t really paid too much attention to either clip when replayed recently, but I will say the play against Oakland and the dive into the stands in ‘04 definitely impressed me at the time. Both plays certainly have probably been overblown, but that’s not to say they weren’t pretty spectacular
    2. The only thing about Jeter I can’t stand that I would actually consider his “fault” (unlike the media fawning sessions) are his mannerisms at the plate. The flinching at inside strikes like they’re going to hit him in the ribs, the staring outside strikes into the glove…that stuff’s annoying.

    And yes, I felt other people needed to know what I didnt like about Derek Jeter.

    Sep 16th, 2008

  92. Justin

    @ WILL:
    Interesting that you bring up Ripken - I was never a fan of his either, and while he was a great power-hitting shortstop, he had very little range and was, in my mind, highly overrated on the whole for much of his career (he admittedly had some years where he merited the attention). Like Jeter, you couldn’t tell a lot of fans that he didn’t live up to the hype. They wouldn’t hear of it.
    Curiously enough, like Rose, Ripken also went out there at times when it likely wasn’t the best thing for his team.

    As for your arguments as to why people love Jeter…

    1) home grown: admittedly, fans love the guys they’ve seen since day one, often more so than the big free agents, so this adds to his appeal for Yanks fans

    2) first ballot Hall of Famer: absolutely. Full credit to him for this

    3) who has played on 4 championship teams: so did a lot of guys on that team, but where I get lost is when analysts and fans pretty much credit Jeter for winning them all by his lonesome. Sure, he contributed more than, say, Luis Sojo did to those teams, but he was part of an excellent team with great pitching and some excellent hitters. The fact that the Yankees made it through the playoffs those years instead of getting knocked off by another team on a roll can’t be taken away from Jeter, but why do so many people make it sound like Jeter won those series all by himself?

    4) He is also a very dignified and classy ball player: I guess I’ve just never seen this side of him. Sure, I’ve seen the polished, prepared answers he gives the media, and I’ve seen he way he plays off the adulation with a cool, detached demeanour, but as has been pointed out countless times, he didn’t offer to move for the good of the team (and honestly, do you think Torre or A-Rod would have DARED suggest they move the untouchable cap’n?), and he didn’t extend an olive branch to a former friend who bruised his ego, which would have helped A-Rod and likely his team as well.

    5) who also has a celebrity mystique: this has never, ever been a factor in determining how much I like a ballplayer or how good I consider that ballplayer to be. Bedding models and starlets isn’t a strike against