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	<title>Comments on: De-Fence! De-Gate! De-Links!</title>
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	<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/12/de-fence-de-gate-de-links/</link>
	<description>A Rough Draft Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Richard Aronson</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/12/de-fence-de-gate-de-links/#comment-31482</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Aronson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 03:47:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/12/de-fence-de-gate-de-links/#comment-31482</guid>
		<description>Aside from Cliff Lee&#039;s decisions, the Indians are 53-75, which is pretty lousy.  Aside from Roy Halladay&#039;s decisions, the Blue Jays are still above .500, 62-59.  This suggests that unless Lee is the luckiest pitcher in baseball and Halladay extremely unlucky, the Jays are a much better team than the Indians this year.

I&#039;m not a particular fan of either team or pitcher.  I try to be objective, which is why last year I agreed with Sabathia (innings) over Lackey (ERA) and both over Beckett, even though I&#039;m an Angels fan as much as I root for any team in the AL.  And even though Halladay has to be given credit value for his extra innings, ERA+ of 187 versus 155 in favor of Lee is not close (if you want a modern statistic) and old fashioned ERA of 2.36 versus 2.77 also isn&#039;t close.  If Lee doesn&#039;t worsen, he will have a year for the ages, more than two runs below the league average ERA, before considering his exceptional WL record, and before considering that most other freaky good WL records have tended to come on pitchers who are on playoff teams (Sutcliffe&#039;s CYA year is atop that list, but I recall Guidry, Koufax, Sabathia this year, etc.)  So anybody who picks Halladay over Lee for CYA this year should learn to check their bias at the door.

Finally, for the guy who suggested that Gooden deserved a CYA for his rookie season instead of Sutcliffe, Gooden did have one more win than Sutcliffe, and EIGHT more losses, while pitching in a better pitcher&#039;s park.  Sutcliffe had a better ERA+ in 1984.  Sutcliffe got all 24 first place votes for CYA.  The Cubs beat the Mets for the division title.  Take away both pitcher&#039;s decisions, and the two teams would have been in a virtual tie instead of the Cubs winning the division by 6.5 games.  Gooden had an excellent rookie season, but it wasn&#039;t close to being as good as his sophomore season..  Gooden won the CYA in the only year he clearly deserved it.  In fact, Gooden looks similar to Cliff Lee in that there is one year off the charts good, and the rest of the career (so far) doesn&#039;t look like a CYA winner&#039;s.  After all those strikeouts his first two seasons, it looks like Gooden blew out his arm and was never quite the same pitcher again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aside from Cliff Lee&#8217;s decisions, the Indians are 53-75, which is pretty lousy.  Aside from Roy Halladay&#8217;s decisions, the Blue Jays are still above .500, 62-59.  This suggests that unless Lee is the luckiest pitcher in baseball and Halladay extremely unlucky, the Jays are a much better team than the Indians this year.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not a particular fan of either team or pitcher.  I try to be objective, which is why last year I agreed with Sabathia (innings) over Lackey (ERA) and both over Beckett, even though I&#8217;m an Angels fan as much as I root for any team in the AL.  And even though Halladay has to be given credit value for his extra innings, ERA+ of 187 versus 155 in favor of Lee is not close (if you want a modern statistic) and old fashioned ERA of 2.36 versus 2.77 also isn&#8217;t close.  If Lee doesn&#8217;t worsen, he will have a year for the ages, more than two runs below the league average ERA, before considering his exceptional WL record, and before considering that most other freaky good WL records have tended to come on pitchers who are on playoff teams (Sutcliffe&#8217;s CYA year is atop that list, but I recall Guidry, Koufax, Sabathia this year, etc.)  So anybody who picks Halladay over Lee for CYA this year should learn to check their bias at the door.</p>
<p>Finally, for the guy who suggested that Gooden deserved a CYA for his rookie season instead of Sutcliffe, Gooden did have one more win than Sutcliffe, and EIGHT more losses, while pitching in a better pitcher&#8217;s park.  Sutcliffe had a better ERA+ in 1984.  Sutcliffe got all 24 first place votes for CYA.  The Cubs beat the Mets for the division title.  Take away both pitcher&#8217;s decisions, and the two teams would have been in a virtual tie instead of the Cubs winning the division by 6.5 games.  Gooden had an excellent rookie season, but it wasn&#8217;t close to being as good as his sophomore season..  Gooden won the CYA in the only year he clearly deserved it.  In fact, Gooden looks similar to Cliff Lee in that there is one year off the charts good, and the rest of the career (so far) doesn&#8217;t look like a CYA winner&#8217;s.  After all those strikeouts his first two seasons, it looks like Gooden blew out his arm and was never quite the same pitcher again.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/12/de-fence-de-gate-de-links/#comment-31364</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 08:07:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/12/de-fence-de-gate-de-links/#comment-31364</guid>
		<description>When was Carlos Delgado permanently inserted into the 4th spot in the Mets&#039; lineup?  If memory serves, Beltran began the season batting 4th (or higher) with Delgado hitting behind him.  So at what point in the season was Beltran bumped down to 5th thereby providing protection for Delgado?  A couple minutes of research reveals...drumroll please...

July 23!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When was Carlos Delgado permanently inserted into the 4th spot in the Mets&#8217; lineup?  If memory serves, Beltran began the season batting 4th (or higher) with Delgado hitting behind him.  So at what point in the season was Beltran bumped down to 5th thereby providing protection for Delgado?  A couple minutes of research reveals&#8230;drumroll please&#8230;</p>
<p>July 23!</p>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/12/de-fence-de-gate-de-links/#comment-31243</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 18:19:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/12/de-fence-de-gate-de-links/#comment-31243</guid>
		<description>As for the Cy, as much as I&#039;d like to see Doc take home his second, I think you have to concede it to Clifton Phifer Lee. He&#039;s been better this year, though it&#039;s closer than some would think, and far closer than the W-L records would suggest. 

I spent the first four months of the season waiting for the wheels to come off on Lee, but no dice there. It&#039;s reminiscent of the Cy Halladay DID win, when he had to fight off a season-long challenge by Esteban Loaiza all year. Maybe Doc&#039;s doomed to always being challenged by guys who were touch-and-go to make their teams&#039; rotations in spring training.

Mind you, Lee had a track record of success until last year whereas Loaiza was never much more than back-of-the-rotation filler until that season.

Personally, I just hope Halladay is recognized for his season by placing second. I&#039;d hate for K-Rod&#039;s big save totals to earn him more support, and it&#039;s pretty clear to me that 250 innings of being the second-best starter in the league than 60 innings of being the fifth- or sixth-best closer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As for the Cy, as much as I&#8217;d like to see Doc take home his second, I think you have to concede it to Clifton Phifer Lee. He&#8217;s been better this year, though it&#8217;s closer than some would think, and far closer than the W-L records would suggest. </p>
<p>I spent the first four months of the season waiting for the wheels to come off on Lee, but no dice there. It&#8217;s reminiscent of the Cy Halladay DID win, when he had to fight off a season-long challenge by Esteban Loaiza all year. Maybe Doc&#8217;s doomed to always being challenged by guys who were touch-and-go to make their teams&#8217; rotations in spring training.</p>
<p>Mind you, Lee had a track record of success until last year whereas Loaiza was never much more than back-of-the-rotation filler until that season.</p>
<p>Personally, I just hope Halladay is recognized for his season by placing second. I&#8217;d hate for K-Rod&#8217;s big save totals to earn him more support, and it&#8217;s pretty clear to me that 250 innings of being the second-best starter in the league than 60 innings of being the fifth- or sixth-best closer.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/12/de-fence-de-gate-de-links/#comment-31242</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 18:06:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/12/de-fence-de-gate-de-links/#comment-31242</guid>
		<description>Given that the point for any baseball team not owned by Jeffrey Loria is ostensibly to make the playoffs, I can see the argument that the &quot;most valuable&quot; player should be a guy without whom his team wouldn&#039;t have made it there. 

I can see where someone might say Player A was better than Player B, but because Player B&#039;s contributions led to his team making the playoffs while Player A was saddled with a terrible supporting cast, Player B&#039;s contributions were &quot;more valuable.&quot;

I can see all that, but I don&#039;t agree with it at all. I think it&#039;s ridiculous to punish an outstanding player just because the rest of his team isn&#039;t very good (or because the rest of his team is REALLY good and would likely make the playoffs with a chump like Scott Brosius playing his position).

David Wright suffered pretty heavily from that problem last year, and is a pretty good example of the flaws in typical MVP voters&#039; thinking. He was ahead of Rollins in terms of MVP consideration in virtually everyone&#039;s mind going into September, and then he had a great September - far better than Rollins&#039; month - but because the rest of the Mets tanked and the Phils surged, Rollins won. If Wright had just somehow made his pitchers pitch halfway decent, he probably would have won.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Given that the point for any baseball team not owned by Jeffrey Loria is ostensibly to make the playoffs, I can see the argument that the &#8220;most valuable&#8221; player should be a guy without whom his team wouldn&#8217;t have made it there. </p>
<p>I can see where someone might say Player A was better than Player B, but because Player B&#8217;s contributions led to his team making the playoffs while Player A was saddled with a terrible supporting cast, Player B&#8217;s contributions were &#8220;more valuable.&#8221;</p>
<p>I can see all that, but I don&#8217;t agree with it at all. I think it&#8217;s ridiculous to punish an outstanding player just because the rest of his team isn&#8217;t very good (or because the rest of his team is REALLY good and would likely make the playoffs with a chump like Scott Brosius playing his position).</p>
<p>David Wright suffered pretty heavily from that problem last year, and is a pretty good example of the flaws in typical MVP voters&#8217; thinking. He was ahead of Rollins in terms of MVP consideration in virtually everyone&#8217;s mind going into September, and then he had a great September &#8211; far better than Rollins&#8217; month &#8211; but because the rest of the Mets tanked and the Phils surged, Rollins won. If Wright had just somehow made his pitchers pitch halfway decent, he probably would have won.</p>
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		<title>By: gogiggs</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/12/de-fence-de-gate-de-links/#comment-31236</link>
		<dc:creator>gogiggs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 16:33:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/12/de-fence-de-gate-de-links/#comment-31236</guid>
		<description>Well, having watched baseball execs for 30+ years, I have no confidence that 20 of 20 could correctly choose cake over death, but that&#039;s not really the point is it?

The Cy Young award is for pitching performance this season, period. It&#039;s not for who has been better over their career. It&#039;s not for who you&#039;d rather have next year. It&#039;s for the best pitcher this season. period.

Now, if you think Halladay has been better this season, that&#039;s fine. There are some non-ridiculous arguments to be made there. But this business of who you&#039;d rather have or the suggestion that Lee is a &quot;nobody&quot;* are completely beside the point. 

*(a ridiculous suggestion to make about a guy who has been in a big league rotation 4 of the last 5 seasons and was 4th in the Cy Young voting just two years ago)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, having watched baseball execs for 30+ years, I have no confidence that 20 of 20 could correctly choose cake over death, but that&#8217;s not really the point is it?</p>
<p>The Cy Young award is for pitching performance this season, period. It&#8217;s not for who has been better over their career. It&#8217;s not for who you&#8217;d rather have next year. It&#8217;s for the best pitcher this season. period.</p>
<p>Now, if you think Halladay has been better this season, that&#8217;s fine. There are some non-ridiculous arguments to be made there. But this business of who you&#8217;d rather have or the suggestion that Lee is a &#8220;nobody&#8221;* are completely beside the point. </p>
<p>*(a ridiculous suggestion to make about a guy who has been in a big league rotation 4 of the last 5 seasons and was 4th in the Cy Young voting just two years ago)</p>
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		<title>By: Shrike</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/12/de-fence-de-gate-de-links/#comment-31235</link>
		<dc:creator>Shrike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 15:40:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/12/de-fence-de-gate-de-links/#comment-31235</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m pretty sure if you asked 20 baseball executives which pitcher they&#039;d rather have, Roy Halladay or Cliff Lee, all 20 would respond with a preference for the former.

Lee has had a remarkable, remarkable season, but I&#039;d give Doc his second CYA.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m pretty sure if you asked 20 baseball executives which pitcher they&#8217;d rather have, Roy Halladay or Cliff Lee, all 20 would respond with a preference for the former.</p>
<p>Lee has had a remarkable, remarkable season, but I&#8217;d give Doc his second CYA.</p>
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		<title>By: paul</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/12/de-fence-de-gate-de-links/#comment-31205</link>
		<dc:creator>paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 03:37:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/12/de-fence-de-gate-de-links/#comment-31205</guid>
		<description>And Soria should be starting for the Royals next year.  Someone, before I die, needs to explain to me how Soria has only pitched in 6 games all year.  He should play more.  He&#039;s good.
Grienke, Meche, Soria, + Rosa or Hochevar or whomever
It would be pretty good.  Not Royals good, but ACTUALLY pretty good.  GMDM is right to start with pitching, but he needs to learn you need to start with STARTING pitching</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And Soria should be starting for the Royals next year.  Someone, before I die, needs to explain to me how Soria has only pitched in 6 games all year.  He should play more.  He&#8217;s good.<br />
Grienke, Meche, Soria, + Rosa or Hochevar or whomever<br />
It would be pretty good.  Not Royals good, but ACTUALLY pretty good.  GMDM is right to start with pitching, but he needs to learn you need to start with STARTING pitching</p>
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		<title>By: paul</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/12/de-fence-de-gate-de-links/#comment-31204</link>
		<dc:creator>paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 03:34:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/12/de-fence-de-gate-de-links/#comment-31204</guid>
		<description>22-2 is 22-2
I know wins aren&#039;t the end all be all.  but 22-2 is 22-2.

I don&#039;t care if you are pitching for the &#039;27 yanks.  

If you vote for krod I will fart on your pillow</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>22-2 is 22-2<br />
I know wins aren&#8217;t the end all be all.  but 22-2 is 22-2.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t care if you are pitching for the &#8216;27 yanks.  </p>
<p>If you vote for krod I will fart on your pillow</p>
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		<title>By: Eric J</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/12/de-fence-de-gate-de-links/#comment-31199</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 01:50:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/12/de-fence-de-gate-de-links/#comment-31199</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve seen the analogy between Delgado&#039;s 2008 and Morneau&#039;s 2006 in a few places.  Of course, both guys started off badly, then went on runs that led their teams to division titles (potential titles, in Delgado&#039;s case).  But there are a few differences:

Morneau&#039;s struggles lasted until late May; Delgado&#039;s lasted until late June.

Morneau&#039;s struggles involved an OPS+ of (about) 100; Delgado&#039;s, (about) 95.

Morneau&#039;s good stretch included 2 months of OPS over 1.100; Delgado has one month like that, plus 8 games in September (so he could match or exceed Morneau&#039;s hot streak if he keeps it up this month).

Season totals... Morneau&#039;s triple crown stats are more impressive, largely because of a better average (.321/34/130 to .264/35/104).  Morneau had a much higher RBI total, unless you think Delgado will drive in 25 runs or so in the last 17 games of the Mets&#039; season.  Morneau takes OPS+ easily, 140 to 127.

So, to sum up: Morneau wasn&#039;t as bad early in the season, and his bad streak lasted a month less.  The hot streaks are basically equivalent for each player; Delgado a little hotter, Morneau a little longer.  Adding that up, you have a clearly superior season from Morneau, barring an absolutely insane closing burst from Delgado.  Delgado&#039;s 2008 aspires to be like Morneau&#039;s 2006 when it grows up.

Now factor in that Morneau wasn&#039;t really a great MVP pick, and that there are multiple players in the NL at Delgado&#039;s position who are having significantly better years (which wasn&#039;t true in the 2006 AL)...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve seen the analogy between Delgado&#8217;s 2008 and Morneau&#8217;s 2006 in a few places.  Of course, both guys started off badly, then went on runs that led their teams to division titles (potential titles, in Delgado&#8217;s case).  But there are a few differences:</p>
<p>Morneau&#8217;s struggles lasted until late May; Delgado&#8217;s lasted until late June.</p>
<p>Morneau&#8217;s struggles involved an OPS+ of (about) 100; Delgado&#8217;s, (about) 95.</p>
<p>Morneau&#8217;s good stretch included 2 months of OPS over 1.100; Delgado has one month like that, plus 8 games in September (so he could match or exceed Morneau&#8217;s hot streak if he keeps it up this month).</p>
<p>Season totals&#8230; Morneau&#8217;s triple crown stats are more impressive, largely because of a better average (.321/34/130 to .264/35/104).  Morneau had a much higher RBI total, unless you think Delgado will drive in 25 runs or so in the last 17 games of the Mets&#8217; season.  Morneau takes OPS+ easily, 140 to 127.</p>
<p>So, to sum up: Morneau wasn&#8217;t as bad early in the season, and his bad streak lasted a month less.  The hot streaks are basically equivalent for each player; Delgado a little hotter, Morneau a little longer.  Adding that up, you have a clearly superior season from Morneau, barring an absolutely insane closing burst from Delgado.  Delgado&#8217;s 2008 aspires to be like Morneau&#8217;s 2006 when it grows up.</p>
<p>Now factor in that Morneau wasn&#8217;t really a great MVP pick, and that there are multiple players in the NL at Delgado&#8217;s position who are having significantly better years (which wasn&#8217;t true in the 2006 AL)&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Blackadder</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/12/de-fence-de-gate-de-links/#comment-31197</link>
		<dc:creator>Blackadder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 01:07:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/12/de-fence-de-gate-de-links/#comment-31197</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s also worth mentioning that even cherry-picking the start date, Delgado doesn&#039;t come out looking THAT great.  I mean, since July 1 he is hitting .310/.398/.610.  That&#039;s obvious good, and hitting that over a whole season would make one a terrific ballplayer, but for a cherry picked 2 month hot hitting streak it isn&#039;t that impressive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s also worth mentioning that even cherry-picking the start date, Delgado doesn&#8217;t come out looking THAT great.  I mean, since July 1 he is hitting .310/.398/.610.  That&#8217;s obvious good, and hitting that over a whole season would make one a terrific ballplayer, but for a cherry picked 2 month hot hitting streak it isn&#8217;t that impressive.</p>
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