De-Fence! De-Gate! De-Links!
Posted: September 12th, 2008 | Filed under: Baseball | 34 Comments »
OK, so this was pretty cool. I spent Thursday night being the moderator at the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum for a discussion on defense. I sat between Ozzie Smith and Frank White. There were quite a few great moments, my favortie being the point near the end of the discussion when Frank and Ozzie each took their turn showing everyone how to turn the double play. Frank explained that it was a simple three-step process, you put your left foot on the bag, that’s one, you step forward with your right foot as you catch the ball, that’s two, and you step into your throw to first base, that’s three. Simple, elegant, perfect, that was the way Frank played second base. He was all grace. He was Fred Astaire.
Then Ozzie stepped up and he explained that for him, there was no one way to turn the double play, that he never knew exactly what he was going to to do, he was improvising, he was freestyling, and one time, he would kick the bag and brush across, another time he would step on the bag and jump backward, another time he would use the base as a springboard and jump over the baserunner as he threw to first. It was different every time. He was playing jazz. He was Miles Davis.
– Anyway, being there reminded me that I’ve been meaning forever to link to TangoTiger’s Scouting Project. As he does every year, he is asking fans to offer their defensive scouting reports. This is great stuff.
– Speaking of great stuff, good friend Alex Belth has posted a series of video bites about the New York Giants Nostalgia society. Funny, touching, goofy, heartfelt … you’ll want to take a few minutes out of your day to watch them.
– Of course, we have another link for Michael Rosenberg’s outstanding book War As they Knew It … this being Michael Rosenberg week and all. I have been puttering around with a somewhat lengthy Woody Hayes post, but I don’t know if I’m going to get it done. If I can, I’ll post it tomorrow in time for the Ohio State-Southern Cal onslaught.
– My Brother in Arms Mike Vaccaro and I are having a savage argument about which Carlos is more valuable to the New York Mets this year. We typically agree on everything in the whole world except Billy Joel and this. We’re talking about having a point counterpoint next week. Feel free to encourage him.
– You know it’s been a little while since I’ve mentioned it but THIS BOOK is only $5.99. I’ve heard good things about it.
Our thoughts are with the people of Texas.
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Glad to hear I learned the proper way, the “Frank White way” to turn a double play as a second baseman in American Legion. Go Muddogs! Unfortunately we weren’t very good.
It amazes me that intelligent, baseball-knowledgable people can believe Delgado is more valuable than Beltran. Essentially the same hitter; one is the most valuable baserunner and best defensive center fielder in the game, while the other is a slow, average first baseman. No mitigating factors–apparently contrary to popular belief–like that Delgado has come through in all the big spots while Beltran’s doing all his mashing in games that are already 10-0. Beltran is the more valuable player, and it’s ridiculously non-close. Delgado might be the first league “MVP” not to be among the four most valuable players on his own team…
I decided several years ago these awards are decided with a game of rock, paper, scissors. CC over Beckett last year? Really? I have heard a lot of talk about K-Rod winning over Cliff Lee. Cliff Lee has won 20 games on a very bad team.
Beltran has always been and will always be underated. He plays with such ease people don’t see how good he is.
I grew up watching Ozzie and Frank. They don’t play defense like that anymore.
Here’s the thing about Delgado – I wrote about last Sunday’s game, and I pointed out that we, as fans, have no way to communicate with Delgado – or any player – except through what we yell or cheer at the games (okay, and aside from what we call into local sports talk radio, but what sane person listens to that?) So people cheer “MVP” because they don’t have any other way to tell Delgado that they’re sorry, that they’re happy, that they’re glad he’s around.
And, then all the other people who just yell “MVP” because they hear people around them doing it and think it’s the thing to do.
Why isn’t Emil Brown a choice for AL MVP?
Interesting to see collective intelligence applied to baseball scouting. Also interesting that Derek Jeter (2007) scored among the lowest Agreement values.
Joe, thanks much for the support. I’ve already gotten several responses.
No one is arguing that Delgado is a better player than Beltran. However, if I had to pick a MVP for the Mets right now it would be Delgado and it isn’t close. I’m a Met fan and get to watch them on a regular basis and if ever the overused phrase “he took the team on his back and carried them” applies it would be to Delgado this year. Since July 1st, when the Mets were 1 game under .500, Delgado has been a beast. 21 HR’s, 59 RBI’s, .310 BA, .398 OBA, .639 SLG. MVP! MVP!
Joe,
I bought your book through one of your shameless plugs a couple of months ago, and I finally got a chance to bend the binding yesterday on a flight across country. I am only about a third of the way through, but I am very impressed. Your book has jolted old memories of fathers and sons, made me laugh out loud, and made me regret never meeting Buck O’Neil. The first time I visit KC, I will make sure I stop by 18th and Vine.
Thanks for the good work. Good work like that is hard to find.
Goodness, I sure hope the MVP voters are not blind enough to actually have to choose between Dos Carlos for MVP. If El Hombre doesn’t win it, then they should just ban the award.
I enjoy your website a great deal and appreciate the time and effort you obviously put into it. I really enjoyed the link to tangotiger and the ability to input my feelings about the Royals fielding abilities into a public forum.
Mike, re: Cliff Lee winning 20 games on a bad teams.
He’s collected the majority of those wins against bad teams as well.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=1012
Roy Halladay is, and remains, the best pitcher in baseball. No wonder the Indians deliberately delayed Lee’s start so he wouldn’t have to face the Doctor in Toronto.
J O’C wrote ” Since July 1st, when the Mets were 1 game under .500, Delgado has been a beast. 21 HR’s, 59 RBI’s, .310 BA, .398 OBA, .639 SLG. MVP! MVP!”
But until July 1, Delgado was a bust. 248/328/455, 14 HRs, 45 RBI. So if you want to give him credit for carrying the Mets since July 1, shouldn’t he get some of the blame for sinking them prior to then?
The MVP of the Mets is David Wright, and the MVP of the league is Albert Pujols, and it’s really not close on either account.
Joe, I don’t know Mike very well, so I hope it’s him who doesn’t like Billy Joel. I love Billy Joel. But if it’s you, I might have to stop paying for this blog.
Wait…
James:
There’s no debate to be had. LIME is the AL MVP, without question.
You did mean “Most Valuable Pelleteer,” right?
Gotta agree with SMK, though according to baseball-reference.com, Carlos was even worse than suggested early in the year. When he woke up on July 1, he was sporting a .228/.307/.419 line that would have looked terrible even if he’d played a premium position. Coming from a poor defensive first baseman, that line’s just plain deplorable, and Delgado was as responsible as anyone for the Mets’ early-season struggles.
Some have also posited that Delgado didn’t approve of Willie Randolph’s managerial style, and turned it on after the managerial change. Not sure how much truth there is to that, but if that’s the case, can you really support the candidacy of a player who loafed for half a season and whose poor play was likely a major contributing factor in his manager getting canned? I mean, if he’d put up even decent numbers over the first half, his team would have been in much better shape all along and Randolph might still be leading the ship.
I’ve always liked Delgado, and while I’d like to see him get a ring, I can’t say as I’m pulling for him to win the MVP is what amounts to his second-least-valuable season in over a decade.
Strange year, though – some people were all over Sabathia-for-MVP not long ago, and now there’s a big push for Delgado. If Manny were to roll off a 10-HR September and propel the Dodgers to the playoffs, I’m sure he’d get some ink, too.
Let that be a lesson to you, Pujols – don’t bother with April, May and June. Hit only when it “counts” and you’ll boost your MVP odds significantly. Your problem is that you’re insanely good year-round, and that just doesn’t wash. Stink it up early on once in a while, willya?
Hurricane Geraldo has officially made landfall on Galveston. Go to YouTube and view the instant classic clip of him getting taken out by a wave on the seawall. He’s a pompous doofus at all times on the air, but like a train wreck you can’t stop watching. I’m sure he will single handedly save a family of four from certain death, or at least claim he did. Ratings gold.
Re: Bill “Delgado might be the first league “MVP†not to be among the four most valuable players on his own team…”
That’s an interesting comment that as a Tigers’ fan reminds me of how I have always felt Justin Morneau for the 2006 Twins was behind Mauer, Santana, Liriano, and Nathan.
Mauer was incredible and even had a higher OPS+ than Morneau. Santana goes without saying. Where would the Twins have been without Liriano that year? And Nathan had his best year ever. Granted, Morneau was great that year but the other four guys were somehow even better. At the very least you could make the argument that Morneau was only the third or fourth MVP on his own team.
About Morneau and the 2006 Twins. He had a similar year to what Delgado is having this year. He struggled at the beginning of the season, and then turned it around and had a stellar season from June on. That coincided with the Twins going on an incredible run to catch Detroit. That’s why he won. I think people have forgotten about that over time.
Now, I’m open for debate about what MVP means. Is it the best player in the league, or something else. I prefer to think it means the most valuable player. The Twins wouldn’t have gotten to the playoffs without Morneau being Hercules in the second half. I understand it’s unfair to put Jeter at a disadvantage because he was on a better team, but that’s part of what makes the MVP such a great topic to discuss. Morneau was, without a doubt, the most valuable player on the ‘06 Twins team during the part of the season where they went on their run to the Central division title. From June on, no one else really could touch him. And because the Twins came from so far back to win the Central, he won the MVP.
To address the point about Liriano made above: Liriano only played half a season. He was effectively shelved in August, when the Twins were still significantly behind the Tigers, and they still won the division. I’m not downplaying his accomplishments, because his pitching that year was as awe-inspiring as any I’ve seen, but to say he was more valuable to that Twins team is ridiculous. Anyway, pitchers have their own MVP award.
There really aren’t too many people here in Minnesota who think Mauer is a better player than Morneau. As far as positions go, he’s certainly a better catcher than Morneau is a first basemen. And all of his numbers are great, but much like Beltran, everyone wants Mauer to be more than he is. He’s so big, we want him to him homeruns. He’s so patient, we want him to swing at that first pitch down the middle of hte plate. He has such a strong arm, we want him to catch every potential base-stealer. He doesn’t show a ton of emotion, good or bad, so we think he doesn’t have enough heart to be great. It’s unfair to him, but that’s the way it is I guess.
Delgado is the 4th most valuable player on the Mets, based on both Win Shares and VORP. Reyes and Beltran are neck-and-neck for 1st, Wright is 3rd.
My comments from a similar post at Bats, the New York Times baseball blog:
http://tinyurl.com/49u9mn
And I have to agree 100% with the observation that if he is responsible for the Metsies’ 2nd-half surge, he is equally responsible for their miserable 1st-half.
And, yes, Joe, please tell us that it’s not you who doesn’t like Billy Joel. He is, indeed, The Entertainer.
Apologies for introducing non-American sport, but this seems to be a pot pourri and there may be some interest in this . . .
The NRL (National Rugby League) finals series commenced last night, down-under time, with Brisbane playing Sydney City. One broken arm, one severe concussion, multiple cases of dazed players, blood flowing from split eyebrows and scalp wounds of all description, enough injuries to keep a mid-city ER department busy throughout the night — and that was just the first twenty minutes.
Incidentally, Brisbane won.
I’m not a big fan of Billy Joel, but I don’t hate him either. But, no matter which side you fall on the Great Joel debate, you should find the old Chuck Klosterman article from Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs about his love of Billy Joel. If anything could convince someone to like Billy Joel, it’s that article.
Mike: “Cliff Lee has won 20 games on a very bad team. ”
Actually, the Indians are only 3 games under .500 and have a better run differential than the Yankees. This despite Martinez and Hafner being out most of the year, Sabathia being traded, Carmona missing a couple months and Westbrook only making 5 starts. The Indians are not a very bad team. The Indians are a good team that have a mediocre record due to horrible luck with injuries and their bullpen.
Don’t even start with Cliff Lee…he’s a nobody.
Do it again next year when people (batters) are paying attention.
It’s also worth mentioning that even cherry-picking the start date, Delgado doesn’t come out looking THAT great. I mean, since July 1 he is hitting .310/.398/.610. That’s obvious good, and hitting that over a whole season would make one a terrific ballplayer, but for a cherry picked 2 month hot hitting streak it isn’t that impressive.
I’ve seen the analogy between Delgado’s 2008 and Morneau’s 2006 in a few places. Of course, both guys started off badly, then went on runs that led their teams to division titles (potential titles, in Delgado’s case). But there are a few differences:
Morneau’s struggles lasted until late May; Delgado’s lasted until late June.
Morneau’s struggles involved an OPS+ of (about) 100; Delgado’s, (about) 95.
Morneau’s good stretch included 2 months of OPS over 1.100; Delgado has one month like that, plus 8 games in September (so he could match or exceed Morneau’s hot streak if he keeps it up this month).
Season totals… Morneau’s triple crown stats are more impressive, largely because of a better average (.321/34/130 to .264/35/104). Morneau had a much higher RBI total, unless you think Delgado will drive in 25 runs or so in the last 17 games of the Mets’ season. Morneau takes OPS+ easily, 140 to 127.
So, to sum up: Morneau wasn’t as bad early in the season, and his bad streak lasted a month less. The hot streaks are basically equivalent for each player; Delgado a little hotter, Morneau a little longer. Adding that up, you have a clearly superior season from Morneau, barring an absolutely insane closing burst from Delgado. Delgado’s 2008 aspires to be like Morneau’s 2006 when it grows up.
Now factor in that Morneau wasn’t really a great MVP pick, and that there are multiple players in the NL at Delgado’s position who are having significantly better years (which wasn’t true in the 2006 AL)…
22-2 is 22-2
I know wins aren’t the end all be all. but 22-2 is 22-2.
I don’t care if you are pitching for the ‘27 yanks.
If you vote for krod I will fart on your pillow
And Soria should be starting for the Royals next year. Someone, before I die, needs to explain to me how Soria has only pitched in 6 games all year. He should play more. He’s good.
Grienke, Meche, Soria, + Rosa or Hochevar or whomever
It would be pretty good. Not Royals good, but ACTUALLY pretty good. GMDM is right to start with pitching, but he needs to learn you need to start with STARTING pitching
I’m pretty sure if you asked 20 baseball executives which pitcher they’d rather have, Roy Halladay or Cliff Lee, all 20 would respond with a preference for the former.
Lee has had a remarkable, remarkable season, but I’d give Doc his second CYA.
Well, having watched baseball execs for 30+ years, I have no confidence that 20 of 20 could correctly choose cake over death, but that’s not really the point is it?
The Cy Young award is for pitching performance this season, period. It’s not for who has been better over their career. It’s not for who you’d rather have next year. It’s for the best pitcher this season. period.
Now, if you think Halladay has been better this season, that’s fine. There are some non-ridiculous arguments to be made there. But this business of who you’d rather have or the suggestion that Lee is a “nobody”* are completely beside the point.
*(a ridiculous suggestion to make about a guy who has been in a big league rotation 4 of the last 5 seasons and was 4th in the Cy Young voting just two years ago)
Given that the point for any baseball team not owned by Jeffrey Loria is ostensibly to make the playoffs, I can see the argument that the “most valuable” player should be a guy without whom his team wouldn’t have made it there.
I can see where someone might say Player A was better than Player B, but because Player B’s contributions led to his team making the playoffs while Player A was saddled with a terrible supporting cast, Player B’s contributions were “more valuable.”
I can see all that, but I don’t agree with it at all. I think it’s ridiculous to punish an outstanding player just because the rest of his team isn’t very good (or because the rest of his team is REALLY good and would likely make the playoffs with a chump like Scott Brosius playing his position).
David Wright suffered pretty heavily from that problem last year, and is a pretty good example of the flaws in typical MVP voters’ thinking. He was ahead of Rollins in terms of MVP consideration in virtually everyone’s mind going into September, and then he had a great September – far better than Rollins’ month – but because the rest of the Mets tanked and the Phils surged, Rollins won. If Wright had just somehow made his pitchers pitch halfway decent, he probably would have won.
As for the Cy, as much as I’d like to see Doc take home his second, I think you have to concede it to Clifton Phifer Lee. He’s been better this year, though it’s closer than some would think, and far closer than the W-L records would suggest.
I spent the first four months of the season waiting for the wheels to come off on Lee, but no dice there. It’s reminiscent of the Cy Halladay DID win, when he had to fight off a season-long challenge by Esteban Loaiza all year. Maybe Doc’s doomed to always being challenged by guys who were touch-and-go to make their teams’ rotations in spring training.
Mind you, Lee had a track record of success until last year whereas Loaiza was never much more than back-of-the-rotation filler until that season.
Personally, I just hope Halladay is recognized for his season by placing second. I’d hate for K-Rod’s big save totals to earn him more support, and it’s pretty clear to me that 250 innings of being the second-best starter in the league than 60 innings of being the fifth- or sixth-best closer.
When was Carlos Delgado permanently inserted into the 4th spot in the Mets’ lineup? If memory serves, Beltran began the season batting 4th (or higher) with Delgado hitting behind him. So at what point in the season was Beltran bumped down to 5th thereby providing protection for Delgado? A couple minutes of research reveals…drumroll please…
July 23!
Aside from Cliff Lee’s decisions, the Indians are 53-75, which is pretty lousy. Aside from Roy Halladay’s decisions, the Blue Jays are still above .500, 62-59. This suggests that unless Lee is the luckiest pitcher in baseball and Halladay extremely unlucky, the Jays are a much better team than the Indians this year.
I’m not a particular fan of either team or pitcher. I try to be objective, which is why last year I agreed with Sabathia (innings) over Lackey (ERA) and both over Beckett, even though I’m an Angels fan as much as I root for any team in the AL. And even though Halladay has to be given credit value for his extra innings, ERA+ of 187 versus 155 in favor of Lee is not close (if you want a modern statistic) and old fashioned ERA of 2.36 versus 2.77 also isn’t close. If Lee doesn’t worsen, he will have a year for the ages, more than two runs below the league average ERA, before considering his exceptional WL record, and before considering that most other freaky good WL records have tended to come on pitchers who are on playoff teams (Sutcliffe’s CYA year is atop that list, but I recall Guidry, Koufax, Sabathia this year, etc.) So anybody who picks Halladay over Lee for CYA this year should learn to check their bias at the door.
Finally, for the guy who suggested that Gooden deserved a CYA for his rookie season instead of Sutcliffe, Gooden did have one more win than Sutcliffe, and EIGHT more losses, while pitching in a better pitcher’s park. Sutcliffe had a better ERA+ in 1984. Sutcliffe got all 24 first place votes for CYA. The Cubs beat the Mets for the division title. Take away both pitcher’s decisions, and the two teams would have been in a virtual tie instead of the Cubs winning the division by 6.5 games. Gooden had an excellent rookie season, but it wasn’t close to being as good as his sophomore season.. Gooden won the CYA in the only year he clearly deserved it. In fact, Gooden looks similar to Cliff Lee in that there is one year off the charts good, and the rest of the career (so far) doesn’t look like a CYA winner’s. After all those strikeouts his first two seasons, it looks like Gooden blew out his arm and was never quite the same pitcher again.