Every Rose has his thorns
Posted: September 8th, 2008 | Filed under: Baseball | 32 Comments »
I buried this fun little item in my Miscellaneous post the other day:
One more Derek Jeter thought. When I talked with Pete Rose. I asked him if he thought Jeter had any chance to catch him on the hit list.
I wish I’d had a camera at that moment because the look of pure disgust on Pete’s face was beyond priceless, it was worth more words than every blog post I’ve ever written. He said, “Come on.”
I said, “Well, he has about as many hits as you had at his age.” And if anything Pete’s look became MORE disgusted, and he smirked and he said what might be my favorite quote of the year, and one that (sadly) I probably won’t be able to get into the book so I give it to you now:
He said: “You tell Derek that the first 3,000 are easy.”
Since then, several brilliant readers have wondered about Ichiro and all his hits, and where he stands in the all-time hit leader’s mind. Well, it just so happens Rose talked about that too, with a similar (but not quite as humorous) look of disgust on his face.
He said: “Ichiro? He’s not catching me. He can have all the hits he got in Japan, and he’s STILL not catching me.”
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My favorite quote about Pete Rose…
“If I had played my career hitting singles like Pete (Rose), I’d wear a dress.” Source: The Mick (Mickey Mantle)
Nice arrogance Pete. Of course, I can the same sneer in Ty Cobb’s voice had he been around when Pete broke his record “I could have had 5000 hits had I waited I was a .250 hitter to retire”.
That might be the quote of the decade, if not the year; Joe, you REALLY should have tried HARD to work that into a book somewhere, if only you were writing one about one of the teams Rose had played for. A shame . . .
Great point by Brett! Yeah, maybe Pete should remember how average-to-below-average he was for at least the last 5 seasons of his career. What a joke! Why doesn’t Pete just go back to some sleazy OTB to make friends?
Pete is nothing if not quotable. He is also the source of one of my all-time favorite sports quotes, which (as typical for him) is equal parts truth and ego:
“I lead the league in doubles every year, and half of them are singles.”
Charlie Hustle, indeed. BTW, it has apparently become lost in the mists of antiquity, but that nickname was originally intended as a rather sarcastic insult. The originator was Whitey Ford, the situation was PR running out a walk in a spring training game. Ford saw this, and said, “Hey, look, there goes Charlie Hustle” with the typical “I’m already a major-league” sarcasm.
Now, all these years later, it’s become something of a tribute.
major-leaguer — forgot the “r”
“Dear Pete,
You know what else is easy? Getting into the Hall of Fame on the first ballot.
Sincerely,
Derek “Captain Clutch” Jeter”
***Now, all these years later, it’s become something of a tribute.***
I was a teenager at the peak of Pete’s career in the 70’s, and it was a derisive term among the kids I knew. Nobody wanted that nickname. Nothing meant “no talent” or “uncool” like the name Charlie Hustle.
I never lived in Cincinnati or Philly, but everyone I knew thought he was a total douche.
I know people aren’t going to pass up an easy change to zing Rose (see above posts), and that’s understandable. And it’s partially because they know he’s right about this.
Well, some of the blame has to go to the manager who played Rose so much late in his career. Let me remember who that was… oh, yeah… Pete Rose.
Also, I thought those of us from Cleveland had more sense than to use the term “Captain Clutch” for a guy who grounded into three double plays against the Indians in the first round last year.
Rick:
I use “Captain Clutch” in jest, much as “Charlie Hustle” was originally used.
That being said, I think Jeter is a better player than Rose ever was, especially in 1999 and 2006.
Hey, give Rose credit for this: he was always quick with a clever quote, which is why sportswriters loved him so much, and why so many were eager to make excuses for him.
If a surly, uncooperative player like Albert Belle had been written up for gambling by John Dowd, it’s a safe bet none of the writers in Pete’s corner would have come to Belle’ s defense.
I was just about to e-mail this shirt to Joe, when I saw that he had a post about Pete Rose. So I’ll put it here instead:
http://hypebeast.com/2008/09/unheard-of-x-rogue-status-pete-rose-t-shirt/
Jeez kids, no need to jump all over Pete Rose. The guy did something special, and he’s a fantastic quote – at least give him that much.
Pete Rose had over 4,000 hits before he ever wrote his own name on a lineup card.
Here’s a good description of Pete Rose as I experienced him, watching him throughout his prime:
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/pete-rose-the-ballplayer/
Does Pete Rose seem bitter to you? I’d always thought of him as a bit of a happy-go-lucky dunce off of the playing field, but now he comes across as cranky and old.
Why wouldn’t he be bitter? He’s not what you’d call a well-rounded individual, the only thing that ever really mattered to him was baseball, and now he’s been banned for almost 20 years. He’s what, 67 years old? He must realize he’s probably never getting back in the game, or into the Hall. If not bitter, I’m sure he’s very, very sad.
Pete was the best first basemen on the 1985 Reds. His OBP was .395 for Pete’s sake. Tony Perez was not able to play every day.
Good thing he did that, because he slugged .319. 16 extra base hits in 500 plate appearances.
Tank – but Perez’ OBP was .396 in his part-time work – and he slugged .470 (back when that meant something) to Pete’s .319. (.319!) Also, Nick Esasky spend some time at first, and he hit 21 homers that year (second to Dave Parker) with a line of 262/332/465 in 125 games.
Now, why wouldn’t you play Esasky more often at first instead of the guy slugging .319? Because you had nobody in LF? Oh, but you did… the 23-year old Eric Davis, who got all of 122 at bats. Hit 8 homers (pathetically, it was third-most on the ballclub), had a line of 246/287/516, and 16 steals in 19 tries. Sure he struck out a million times, and was pretty unpolished… So if you liked, you could also play the unpolished Paul O’Neill, who got nothing more than sips of coffee with the club until ‘87. Or heck, even Gary Redus had a decent season out there in ‘85 – 252/366/415 with 48 steals.
1986 was even worse: with Davis a permanent fixture in left, Rose and his brisk 219/316/270 (holy cats) still led the team in innings played at first, and not Esasky at 230/325/403 – not great, but still better.
In ‘87 Rose finally went full-time behind the bench, and Esasky had a line of 272/327/529 in 100 games, all at first.
If Rose is going to allow Ichiro those Japanese hits, barring injury, I think he’ll pass him.
Here’s my problem with Pete’s arrogance, he just didn’t know when to quit. From 1963-1979 he was everything that you would want in a ballplayer, I get that. But from 1980 on, he just wasn’t all that good (with the exception of 1981), especially because he was playing 1B. He turned 39 in 1980 and he OPS+ from then on was 94, 119, 90, 69, 99, 99, 61. As a contrast, Ty Cobb turned 39 in 1926 and his OPS+ from then on was 137, 133 and 112 and then he quit. Had he waited until he was 45 or until he was turning in sub 100 OPS+s on a regular basis, I suspect the hit record would have been unattainable for Charlie Hustle, but Ty probably considered his .323/.389/.431 1928 season to be a poor one (and that was the lowest OPS+ year he had had since his rookie year when he was 18 years old) and he quit.
If only Charlie Hustle had the same respect for himself.
pete rose is awesome
If Ichiro gets 3,000 U.S. hits, he’ll pass Rose with the combined total. Pretty good chance he will (I don’t know what Mr. James puts him at) despite Ichiro’s age.
Pete’s the king of hits, he has the right to scoff every/any notion that his crown will ever be approached. It’s his to rule as he pleases.
Even if you are correct, Nightfly, the good people of the ‘Nati wanted that record badly. It meant a lot to them that a home town boy would become the hit king. Think of it like it was the all-star game…it was for the people.
Also, Pete wasn’t the GM and Davis and O’Neil weren’t available to him.
Tank – in fairness, Davis certainly was on the big-league roster, and had been since 1984. I’ll grant that the record chase was huge in Cincy. But there had to be a better way to get it while also serving the best interests of the ball club. I mean, you’ve got all these promising young players: Davis, O’Neill, even Kal Daniels before he fell down a well… Jose Rijo was on his way, Danny Jackson is having his best years, John Franco is in the bullpen… and very shortly, Barry Larkin and Chris Sabo are showing up.
(Man, that was a heckuva outfit, wasn’t it? I’d forgotten. Nobody talks about the late 80’s Reds much, except to wonder how Rose’s gambling on the team affected them. Such a shame.)
The Phillies have been around for over 120 years, they won one championship while Pete Rose played for the team, and zero in the other 115 years of their existence. I’ll buy him a beer anyday.
[...] 4) http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/09/08/every-rose-has-his-thorns/ [...]
Rose vs. Jeter per 162 games
Jeter wins hands down: 207 hits, 120 runs, 17 HR, 82 RBI, .316 BA .386 OBP .458 SLG
Rose: 194 hits, 98 runs, 7 HR, 60 RBI, .303 BA .375 OBP .409 SLG
it’s not even close.
Seasons with OPS+ above 130.
Pete 8
Jeter 2
You’re right. It’s not even close. Pete was a much better hitter. Overall Jeter was more valuable, since he’s a (bad) SS.
The last 5 years really dragged down Pete’s rate stats, but let’s see what Jeter looks like in 3-4 years. It looks like decline has set in for him. He fell off a cliff this season.
[...] via Joe Posnanski [...]