Favre and Legacies
Posted: July 30th, 2008 | Filed under: Other Sports | 64 Comments »
Ted Williams probably uttered the most famous words about sports immortality. He said, “Bleep that bleeping bleepity bleep.” He also said: “All I want out of life is that when I walk down the street, folks will say, ”There goes the greatest hitter that ever lived.“
I’ve never known quite what to make of the Kid’s enduring dream. Whenever I see that line, I think of Roy Hobbs saying his version in The Natural (“When I walk down the street, people will say: ‘There goes Roy Hobbs, the best there ever was,’”), and the creepy Harriet Bird responding with “Is that all?” It was a good question. I mean, don’t get me wrong, the Ted Williams quote never made me long to wear a black veil and fire a silver bullets at people.* It isn’‘t like that. But I’ve never quite known whether that sort of drive and ambition — that hunger to be remembered and admired long after you stop playing — is healthy or silly or pointless or narcissistic or, in an odd way, honorable.
*Here’s another question about The Natural: We all know that Harriet Bird killed an Olympic star and the next day killed football star Johnny Zirowski, and she killed both with a silver bullet. And we know that she was on the train to kill the Whammer, the player she perceived to be the best player in the world. Then she saw Roy Hobbs strike out the Whammer on three pitches and — being a savvy scout of talent — shifted her attentions to Roy. She heard him say that ”When I walk down the street“ quote, and she called him priceless, and eventually she shot him with a silver bullet. Then, we’re led to believe, she killed herself.
Here’s the question: Why did she kill herself after that? Did she feel like her job was finished and she had killed all the great athletes at that point? Why didn’t she go after the greatest golfer, the greatest boxer, the greatest jockey, the greatest poker player? Was it because she really liked Roy and felt pained by his loss? Or was she a sports snob? Did she feel like, ”Olympics, football, baseball, OK, I’ve already hit all the major sports, the others are not really worth my time?“
I think about this sports immortality stuff now, of course, because of Brett Favre. We’ve all heard in the last few weeks that he’s messing with his football legacy. He’s bickering with the Green Bay Packers and trying to rescind his retirement and causing more quarterback heart attacks than Deacon Jones. Every day in newspapers across America you see headlines like, ”Pennington not worried about Favre,“ and “Favre drama not on Garcia’s mind,” and “Vikings’ Jackson takes the Favre talk in stride.” There’s that line in the movie “In the Line of Fire” where John Malkovich asks Clint Eastwood: “What do you see when you’re in the dark and the demons come?” Mediocre NFL quarterbacks see Brett Favre.
In any case, people almost universally seem to believe that Favre is messing with his legacy now. Well, that makes some sense. He’s in the news every day in increasingly cartoonish ways — he’s retiring, he knows it’s the right time, he’s shedding a few tears, no wait, now he’s leaving open the door to the possibility that he might come back if Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers gets hurt (or sucks), no, wait, he kind of wants to come back even if Aaron Rodgers doesn’t get hurt (or doesn’t suck), no wait, the Packers don’t want him to come back and, well, OK, now Favre sounds ticked off, he REALLY wants to come back, his competitive juices are gurgling, but now he doesn’t want to come back to the Packers, now he wants to stick it in the Packers’ faces (They want Aaron Rodgers over him? Please), and now he’s filing his reinstatement papers into the NFL office, and now there are rumors the Packers will trade him, and now there are rumors they can’t get what they want trading him, and now the Packers are telling Favre to freaking stay home and not create a media circus even though the media acrobats have been flipping for weeks, and now everybody has grown sick of this story and and sick of Favre and knows that it will end badly, with the guy throwing interceptions and getting sacked, the wrong helmet on his head.
All of this leads to the inevitable columns and takes and commentaries: Brett Favre is ruining his legacy.
To start, I don’t know if legacies matter. I really don’t. It’s nice to be remembered, I’m sure, but in the end I’ve got to believe that it doesn’t help you sleep any better or make late night pizza feel better in the morning. The joy is in the playing. Dan Quisenberry had a beautiful line when asked if he missed the cheers. He said, “No, I just go to the ballpark and listen to the cheers and pretend they’re for me.”
Still, there’s something more. Lets say that legacies really do matter. People say that Favre is ruining his legacy. I kind of think the opposite is true.
Here’s what I mean: Many people remember that Willie Mays finished his career with the New York Mets. That last season, he was half the man he used to be. He hit .211, and he fell down in center field during the 1973 World Series. People cried when he fell, literally cried, it seemed the saddest sight imaginable. The Say Hey Kid (to quote the old Atlanta Journal) once covered the outfield like the dew. Then he fell down. After the game, Mays uttered one of his most famous quotes. He said “Growing old is a helpless hurt.”
Many people remember that John Unitas finished his career with the San Diego Chargers. He was 40 and in pain, but he did not want to end it all on any one else’s terms, he felt certain that his arm still had a little power and majesty left. He played five games, threw seven interceptions, got sacked a bunch of times and was finally battered into the retirement that everyone had wished he might have achieved peaceably.
Many people remember that Michael Jordan finished his career in Washington, and he managed to score 20 points a game his final year, but he scored the old man way, shooting fadeaway jump shots and making cheappie baskets and hitting a lot of his free throws after fouls that were often called ghosts. The Wizards were a lousy club, too, and even though Jordan did not fall down in the outfield or crumple under the intense pass rush, he no longer had his working arrangement with gravity and watching him play was like listening to Ray Charles sing after his voice had lost its strength.
It’s hard to imagine sadder endings than those. But did those endings ruin legacies? Of course not. I would say that seeing Mays fall down, sad as it was, just reminded people of those days when he could chase down fly balls that no one else could reach, and the way he would run, like a child at recess, his hat flying off his head at precisely the moment he hit light speed. I would say that seeing Unitas take his last beating in San Diego reminded everyone of his days in Baltimore, in high tops, his haircut a crew cut, when he boldly threw deep on third down and 1 because he knew, absolutely knew, that he would win. I would say that watching Air Jordan sink reminded everyone of those days when he could fly.
Now, there’s Favre. What is his legacy? I think Favre, more than anyone in his era, played quarterback like the men of that lost time when Namath and Staubach and Jurgenson and Unitas took on defenses. Favre did not manage a game. He played it. He whipped passes into double coverage, some of them went for touchdowns (he threw more of those than any quarterback ever) and some of them got intercepted (he threw more of those too). That was football. He got sacked more than 400 times and he started every game for 15 years. The lasting image for me is Favre jumping up and down at Lambeau Field, breathing smoke, pounding his linemen’s helmets, it was like every part of his body shouted, “Where else would you rather be?”
That’s why, for me, this latest chapter doesn’t hurt his legacy. It is PART of his legacy. Of course he cannot walk away. Of course he believes that the Packers need him and cannot win without him. Of course he is ticked off that he retired back in March, when his body still ached and there was, in the awesome words of David St. Hubbins, too much bloody perspective. Of course he expected the Packers to beg him to come back, and when they did not — when they, in fact, made it clear that they are ready to move on without him — he got angry and began to take the steps necessary to lead him to what we all expect to be sad finish. Of course he does not want his last pass in the NFL to be that interception, the one that led to the Giants victory. Of course he believes there’s a better ending out there for him.
Yes, of course, there’s something appealing to us about a tidy ending. That’s why movies end that way. John Elway’s last moment on the football field was him holding up the Super Bowl trophy. Ted Williams hit a home run in his last at-bat. Bill Russell coached and played that final Game 7 when the Celtics beat the Lakers by two. There’s something tidy about John Adams and Thomas Jefferson both dying on the Fourth of July.
There’s something unreal about it too. It isn’t quite human. Maybe there’s something more real about a great athlete thrashing against time. I would have to think that Willie Mays never really stopped believing he could hit the fastball. The mind doesn’t grow old. I feel certain that John Unitas believed he could turn around the San Diego Chargers with a few precision passes and a little bit of will. A great quarterback believes himself invincible. How could anyone who played basketball like Michael Jordan just walk away?
So, sure, while it would be tidy for Brett Favre to finish his career in a Packers uniform, while he is ticking off some of his fans and many of his admirers by acting this way at twilight, while so many talk about his legacy ruined, I think this ending fits him better. Sure, Favre might have enjoyed retirement and played golf. He might have done some television commentary for a while, picked up some easy money, spent more time with family, more time doing television commercials and charity work. But is that really the Brett Favre we have come to know? Can we imagine him in a recliner with a glass of lemonade when he believes, with all his heart, that he could be out there, on the field, defensive linemen buzzing around him, a receiver breaking into the clear, the safety racing over to fill the gap, a millisecond to decide, all those voices in his head, then thinking, “What the hell? I’m Brett Favre,” and unleashing the pass, letting it fly, slicing it through, hearing the cheers or boos, could we really expect him to walk away from that chance without a fight?
And would we even want him to?
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How many people remember that Brett Favre started his career with the Atlanta Falcons.
Is Favre the Nolan Ryan of football? The gunslinger mentality?
Love the Spinal Tap reference.
We always remember athletes at their best. The old highlight clips is of Jordan hitting the shot against Cleveland (or Utah or…), Mays tracking down Vic Wertz’ drive in the World Series or the first Bad News Bears (and not when they went to Houston).
So I agree this whole ‘tarnishing his legacy’ thing is not that big of a deal.
Favre has been doing this ‘To retire or not to retire’ thing for the last 3-4 years so the ESPNs and SIs of the world already have their “Brett Favre Retrospectives” ready so we can remember him at his best. Heck, SI just gave him their Sportsman of the Year for essentially lifetime achievement of being Brett Favre.
So do whatever you want, Brett. As long as you stay on the right side of the law (see Clemens, R.) our memories of you are pretty set. Just do it quickly because I’m getting tired of hearing about you.
“Jordan hitting the shot against Cleveland (or Utah or…), Mays tracking down Vic Wertz’ drive in the World Series …”
Why does Cleveland always turn opposing players into heroes? If Favre comes back and leads the Bucs to a Super Bowl victory over the Browns, I’m going to drive down to Kiln, Miss., hop on his riding lawnmower and kick him in the athletic cup.
Heck, I might just do it right now to ensure that scenario doesn’t happen?
Great take on this Joe. I think people are a lot more upset with Favre’s handling of this than his legacy though. His “shock” that the Packers won’t release him and the way he did the interview with Fox News and releasing the quotes from his conversation with Thompson makes him look like a pompous ass in all of this, no? I think that’s what people are more surprised about. He was always held up as a fun, jovial guy. This shows he’s fun and jovial when things work for him, not his team.
My interpretation of Harriet Bird’s end is that when she switched from murdering the already-established stars (i.e. she did it for notoriety / fame) to murdering an unknown, a boy with only great potential, she realized that she had done it only for her own pleasure. In that moment of self-awareness she had a direct insight to her own evil, and so threw herself out the window.
Your mileage may vary.
I like this version of Favre’s story. From MJD @ Yahoo in honor of shark week.
Favre is in the ocean, doing a little gunslinging, when all the sudden…
Shark: RAAAARRRRRRR
Favre: That’s it, I’m getting out of the ocean. Right now.
Shark: DARN IT, MISSED OPPORTUNITY, I’LL SWIM AWAY NOW
Favre: Ah, you know what, maybe I’ll stay in for a few more minutes. The water’s really nice today.
Shark: TURNING AROUND NOW, GOING TO EAT HAIRY GUY
Favre: Maybe sitting on the beach with a good book and working on my tan is a better idea.
Shark: SIGH, HE’S LEAVING AGAIN
Favre: Ah, what the heck, let’s splash around a little bit longer. I’m not going to have this opportunity once the season starts.
Shark: HE’S LIKE A LITTLE KID OUT HERE
Favre: My fingers are starting to wrinkle, though. Maybe it’s time to get out.
Shark: I HATE THIS GUY
Favre: But the saltwater feels oh-so-good. I hear it’s good for your skin, too.
Shark: MAKE YOUR MIND, WIENER
Favre: But there is a tractor pull on ESPN2 coming up in about a half hour. Maybe I should get out now, so I can go watch it.
Shark: SCREW THIS, I’M LEAVING
Excellent piece. One quibble, however. You write that “watching Air Jordan sink reminded everyone of those days when he could fly.” But the essence of Jordan, at least to me, is that he was unsinkable. Even when he got the flu in the ‘97 Finals and spent all night vomiting and dehydrated, he still willed himself to overcome not only the Jazz, but himself. Hence there was something depressing about seeing him on the Wizards give into the ravages of his body — it is, for me anyway, part of his legacy. (Similarly, I’m glad Rocky Marciano didn’t come out of his retirement in ‘59 to risk his perfect record against Ingemar Johansson. B/c, again, Marciano’s legacy is that he was invincible.)
But I think all this makes your point about Favre even stronger. Favre has never been one of those flawless athletes carved out of marble. He isn’t Joe DiMaggio or Oscar Robertson or Pete Sampras. He’s sloppy, spontaneous, daring, clunky, thrilling. So why shouldn’t he have a sloppy, spontaneous, daring, clunky, thrilling retirement/comeback as well?
To me there is some similarity between Favre’s situation and the Manny Ramirez bruhaha in Boston. It seems that both of them have decided that they don’t like their choices under their current contract, so they want to get their teams to let them go by being really, really annoying.
What I never got about The Natural is how no one remembered him. Harriet Bird kills two famous athletes and then attempts to kill an up-and-coming ballplayer. That wouldn’t have been a huge story, even back then? I’ve got to believe that the up-and-coming ballplayer would have been famous for a while and if he attempted a comeback, everyone would remember his name. I know there wasn’t ESPN back in Roy Hobbs’ (fictional) time, but a story like that would have been big enough that you wouldn’t have forgotten Hobbs’ name.
Great perspective Joe, maybe the best I’ve read on this subject. I’m 25 and from WI, though I live in KC now, and I really can’t even remember anyone but Brett playing QB for the Packers, which is what makes the thought of him as a Viking appalling. But you’re right on and my thoughts have changed a little bit. Thanks for another fantastic entry.
Another strange part of The Natural………. when the judge is blackmailing him with those pictures while he’s in the hospital Roy seems to have no desire to defend his name. I realize this was supposed to be a more innocent time, but seriously. He went to the hotel room of a crazy women in a black veil, she shot him. I hardly see the public crucifying him for that.
Joe, I think you make an interesting point about great athletes and how their legay isn’t tarnished by declining performances at the end of their careers. And Mays, Jordan, and Unitas are great examples, but what about Koufax? From your entry a couple of days ago:
“He quit young. That’s first. Nobody ever saw Koufax as an old pitcher, struggling to get people out like Gibson or Bunning or Robin Roberts. Nobody ever saw Koufax pitching in some sacrilegious uniform at the end of his career, Marichal in a Dodgers cap, Carlton wearing Wahoo on his sleeve, Seaver in Boston. Koufax was, in memory, forever 30 years old, forever unhittable, forever a Dodger, forever resting on Yom Kippur, forever throwing the 2-2 pitch to Harvey Kuenn.”
I suppose in the case of Favre, it’s a moot point – the guy already holds the NFL record for interceptions. But the Koufax example makes me wonder if any of the three athletes you mentioned above would be perceived differently had they retired earlier.
*And of course I meant “legacy,” not some French version of gay.
Seems to me Fav-ruh ought to be able to play if he’s able. We all know in five years he’ll never play competitive football again and the rest of his life is probably looking large on the horizon to him. Legacy schmegacy has always been my take. Once it’s over, it’s over for good and if a guy CAN still play (and wants to) then let him. It’ll be over soon enough. I’ve never understood folks who get bent out of shape because someone is “tarnishing” their legacy.
Well, as a Chiefs fan who cannot remember a fast Willie Lanier or Bobby Bell or a Super Bowl QB Lenny Dawson, but only is old enough to remember when those guys were old and slow and not very good, I can tell you that your image can be tarnished quite a bit when you hang on too long.
Not only that, but if your team allows enough of you to hang on too long together you can send said team into the toilet for about 10 to 15 years.
“The Natural” sucks.
Harriet Bird was hired (or forced) by gamblers to kill the atheletes mentioned in the movie, including Hobbs. After she killed Hobbs, she was killed by the gamblers (/mafia) in a way that made it look like a murder/suicide, and it was because of those mysterious circumstances that Roy was forced from the game for as long as he was. Remember, while in a hospital bed toward the end of the movie, The Judge attempts to blackmail him with the details of the case.
We can further assume that the gambler behind this was Gus Sands, who is also unquestionably hooking up Memo Paris with first Bump Baily, and then Roy Hobbs in order to divert their attention off the playing field. We know that Sands is behind the Bird Killings when he mentions to Roy in their first meeting that he “…once lost $100,000 on three pitched balls,” and when Hobbs questions what happened, Sands replies, “Don’t worry. I got back at him with a different deal the next day.”
BTW, the Judge’s blackmail attempt and Gus Sands ties into my favorite line in the movie. When Roy comes into The Judge’s office and throws the bribe back at him:
Gus Sands: If it isn’t enough, tell us what you had in mind.
Roy Hobbs: To hit away.
I am not really all that wise when it comes to football, but what bothers me the most about the situation is this: Brett Favre IS Green Bay Packers football. Packers football and its fans are unique in playing in a tiny town, on the frozen tundra, and take pride in their connection to the history and legacy of great football. Brett Favre stands for all that, not just for his own legacy, but that of an entire state. And he’s being so incredibly selfish. That’s the story that breaks hearts.
…and yes, I realize that Harriet Bird didn’t really kill Hobbs, but attempted to kill Hobbs. Also, I didn’t want to sound like a know-it-all A-Hole (though I am) in pointing this out. I really did enjoy the post!!
I don’t think him coming back and playing badly will hurt his legacy. I think his legacy has already been hit by the combination of 4-5 straight offseasons of “will he or won’t he come back?”, constant adoration from annoucers about how much fun he has playing the game, and, finally, the way that he has handled this whole ordeal in the press. He has held the Packers front office hostage the last 4-5 years and now that they have moved on he is appalled that they could treat him, Brett Farve, so poorly. I don’t even follow the NFL and I am sick of this story.
“Ben” sucks
I love the column, disagree with Jordan point.
Jordan’s flight was not what made him the greast player of all time. Yes, it was most viewers understood, but it was not the real beauty.
His turnover numbers were always remarkably low for how much he dominated the ball.
He always had a jump shot, and it got better over time.
He understood how to play defense.
He could focus for a whole game, series, season and even career.
He understood the rules, and how to get to the line.
He was not ‘Nique or Shawn Kemp.
He was Pedro, who could destroy and humiliate you, even when he couldn’t throw his fastball.
His flight was pretty. But his basketball was beautiful.
I, too, am sick to death of this story (and the 3+ years spent on the ‘will he/won’t he?’) and agree that Favre has handled this latest fiasco like a jerk (I wish I could rip my boss in the press!). I don’t, however, see how he’s been holding the front office hostage, nor how changing his mind and wanting to play makes him selfish. He really doesn’t seem to know in the off season if he wants to play. This seems understandable. It’s an incredibly difficult job both physically and emotionally. How many of us have waffled in regards to a job? I know I have. It just annoys us because it’s breathlessly reported in the media (‘Breaking news: Brett Favre says he doesn’t know!’). As far as the latest goes, he seems to want to play. I still think his first choice is to play for the Packers, but they’ve made it clear that they don’t want him. Is he really selfish for wanting to play? It seems to me that the Packers are the selfish ones: they don’t want him, but they don’t want anyone else to have him (we’ve all had that experience with a girl!).
I always felt like Jordan’s game with the flu was a lot of hype. How sick was he? We don’t really know. He was a little sick…big whoop.
Of course he expected the Packers to beg him to come back, and when they did not…
Um, didn’t the Packers go to Favre and ask him to not retire?
One thing about this whole story has driven nearly insane. No one seems to remember that Brett Favre is a good quarterback. Today. Right now.
Does everyone realize that Favre had a career high 66.5% completion percentage last year? No? How about 3rd best 4155 yards passing? He had 28 TDs to 15 INTs. He had a 95.7 QB Passer Rating. He led his team to the NFC Championship game.
He is one of the best quarterbacks in the league right now. I thought this was a very good post by Joe, and I’m glad it avoided the usual cliche approach to the Favre story, but I think we have to realize that the only legacy being affected is the way we perceive Brett Favre off the field, because on the field he is still one of the best quarterbacks in the league.
Considering that, it boggles the mind to hear the Green Bay doesn’t want him back. I’m not a Packer fan, but if I was, there is no telling how enraged I would be at the Packer’s front office right now. You have an Super Bowl contending team and you won’t take back not only your best QB, but your team leader, and your most beloved player in franchise history because you want to move on? Move on to what? To 8-8 and rebuilding? Why would you do that.
If I was the Packer’s GM, the minute I heard Brett Favre had the itch I would have been on a plane to his house begging him to come back. And in the air I would have been on the phone working out a trade of Aaron Rodgers and a 3rd or 4rth round pick for Jason Taylor. The Dolphins could use a QB for the future, you avoid the sticky situation of making Rodgers a backup again (and you have Brian Brohm in waiting as the new QB of the future for your franchise). Then I’d take Favre, Taylor, and the rest of the the team that finished 2nd overall in the NFC last year and make a run at the Super Bowl. That makes infinitely more sense to me than alienating Favre and handing the reigns to a good team over to an inexperienced QB.
And because none of that happened or looks like it will happen, I think it’s a shame. I just hope the real bad guys (Packers front office) take the hit on this one and not Favre, who can still throw a football better than 99.9% of the people in this country, and has every right to keep doing it for as long as he thinks he can.
Favre should play if he wants. But he should play for the Chiefs. They’ll become even more of a laughingstock and maybe then Carl will finally be run out of town.
Never understood why people think The Natural is so good. I always thought it was a silly movie that took itself way too seriously.
There needs to be a Pozterm for a famous athlete making enough late-career bad decisions that change the common perception of him from that of someone generally respected and admired to someone generally disliked– very near the moment when a guy would forever be hailed and beloved, he does a series of dumb things and makes everyone wish he would just go away.
The term for this should be Rogering one’s legacy, as in Roger Clemens. And Favre is coming close to Rogering his legacy at this point, IMO. All he needs to do is drag out the retirement/non-retirement thing a while longer, make some dumb comments to the press, then play badly for a cruddy team this year. Then maybe talk some more about playing again next year. At that point, everyone will be so sick of him that his legacy will be totally Rogered.
To respond to the first response (Ed Armbrister): if you’re from Atlanta, you remember. Oh, yes, you remember…
I don’t think it’s the fact that he might flame out on the field, in the end. A lot of us suspected that was how it was going to go. Heck, some thought it was already happening 2 or 3 years ago. It’s not the indecisiveness about when to call it quits either. We’ve all been able to see he’s been struggling with that for some time. The damage to his legacy, I think, is most seen in that “everyman” image he has worked so hard to cultivate.
For all these years, he’s built tight relationships with key national media types. Not the local guys – he’s had little use for them. The Mortensons, Kings, Maddens, etc… He’s worked hard at branding that Brett Favre image. The good guy with the aw shucks personna. The straight shooting gunslinger. The guy that calls out Sterling Sharpe and Javon Walker for walking out on their signed contracts. “What team loyalty!”, we think. Or thought.
Now we see him floating rumors of wanting to return weeks after retiring, but not saying anything himself on the subject. We see him holding grudges about who the GM interviews for coach, and doesn’t sign on offense. We see he’s talking with the Vikings while under contract. We hear nothing from him that indicates he is the least bit aware of the difficult spot he has put the Packers in, his role in all this.
In short, he’s coming across as a prima donna. His on field exploits will always stand, and they are legendary. His carefully crafted image is taking a hit by the day, however.
I can’t get enough talk about The Natural. It’s the best movie ever made.
I don’t think Hobbs was at all famous when he was going to Chicago with Sam Simpson the scout. He was being given a chance to try out, but even the famed sports writer Max Mercy had never heard of the league he was in and called it Soda Pop Valley. When Hobbs is shot in the hotel room he’s simply just another guy in a big city that no one knows. He wouldn’t have made a story and 16 years later he would be a nobody especially since scout Scotty Carson found him with the Hebrew Oilers semi-pro team and tells Judge Banner that he’s a nobody from nowhere. I
ts possible that with forensics being what they were at that time that no one pieced together that Harriet Bird is the one that shot the other athletes. There didn’t seem to be anything on her other than the silver bullets and we know they don’t find the slug that hit Hobbs until his stomach is pumped years later. She was obviously evil and deranged and why she chose to kill herself then adds to the scandelous part of the story. There would only be a scandal because it might appear Hobbs had been shot by her in self-defense or something along those lines. The muckraking media might have portrayed the case as her being a jilted lover that shot Hobbs out of revenge. There’s no telling how Mercy would have spun the story. I also don’t think Hobbs had any connection to Gus Sands or any gamblers before he got to the Knights. The book is clear on that, too. Memo is simply another temptation that could lead him from his path to glory, much like Harriet Bird had been. Hobbs feels guilty because knows he went to the hotel room to see Bird even though he had a girlfriend back home whom he had promise to send for. If Sands had lost $100k on Hobbs he would have remembered his name. Mercy remembers Hobbs though, but can’t put his name on him right away and thus he had to do the digging. It’s a great timeless story of good and evil and second chances.
It is selfish to talk about retiring, then not retire, then retire and then try to unretire and and to not consider the effect on those whose jobs and lives are impacted by his decisions. The team makes decisions about how to structure the team based on Favre’s decisions. They always have. It is selfish to change his mind about retiring because he is saying that he doesn’t care who will be out of a job; he doesn’t care about long term plans of the team. How can he be a team leader when he does not care about the rest of the team? He wants to play and he’s competitive so everyone should drop everything for him.
That is selfish.
“The Natural” sucks. Not as much as 2001, but it’s still a little kids’ movie.
Ya plays the cards as they’re dealt.
Ted Williams would have hit 90 taters a year if he’d played for the Yankees. DiMaggio would’ve led the world in doubles off of the Green Monster.
But football has so many damn people doing so many damned things on the field at each and every play, have we become too obsessed on the quarterback.
Somehow, I suspect Todd Blackledge might be enshrined in Canton had he only had Jerry Rice to throw the ball to. And as important as a quarterback is to a team’s success, offense is only half the game. Until you’re so dominant a QB the team fires their punter, you’re not as important to the team as fans and media think you are.
A former girlfriend once noticed that the Quarterback is, almost without exception, the best-looking kid on the team. This starts at Pop Warner, continues through junior and high school, is almost always the case at the college level, and pretty much dominant in the NFL (there’s the Plunkett exception, of course, which might prove the rule). We worship quarterbacks. We expect more from them than any mere mortal might aspire to.
To step up to the job demands an incredible ego.
If every day I showed up at work I knew that five or six 300-pounders were there with only one thing on their minds: to crush my body into the turf, I might consider another line of employment. Quarterbacks are different.
But, even if there were no running backs or blockers or field goal kickers or punters or linemen, no quarterback can win a football game on his own.
There was a defensive-oriented NFL coach years ago who said, “If they don’t score, we can’t lose.”
How many NFL teams are just a quarterback away from the Super Bowl?
If Favre is so damned convinced he can single-handedly change the destiny of a team, give him the Barry Bonds contract. We’ll pay you the NFL minimum salary with a $50 million bonus payable when you hold the Lombardi Trophy over your head.
Vanessa:
Older players (and people in general) are indecisive regarding when to retire. That is why teams (and companies) plan for these contingencies (for instance by drafting Aaron Rodgers). As far as not caring who will be out of a job, give me a break. These are professional athletes. They understand competition. I’m sure it’s not fun to be Aaron Rodgers right now, but for him the worst case scenario is earning an incredible amount of money to backup a legend. And why do you say he does not care about the rest of the team? From his perspective (and mine) the team will be far better with him this year than without him. As far as not caring about the long term plans of the team: why should he? That is not his job. His job is to play as well as he can so as to aid the team in the present. Finally, it has been made clear to him that the team does not want him back. In response he asked for his release so as to play elsewhere. How exactly is this selfish?
I have not yet ready any of the comment thread. I just have to say that that was one hell of a piece of writing and an absolute dead on articulation of my thought process during this media circus.
Also, I think a lot of people are imputing upon Favre qualities that he may not have. Maybe I’m wrong, but everyone seems to think that Favre is some sort of Machiavellian creature cultivating and manipulating his media persona. Has he ever struck anyone as being that bright? It was mentioned above that he’s been ‘floating rumors’. Do we know he’s the one floating them? As far as talking to the Vikings, it seems that he talks to a lot of his old friends on other teams. So what? And is he really putting the Packers in a tough spot? He was the third best quarterback in the league last year. How, exactly, is the return of one of the leagues’ best a problem for the Packers? Again, I realize that Favre has been a jerk through this, but I think that it’s insane to paint the organization as a victim. If they are certain that Rodgers is better for their team they need only cut Favre to end the circus.
I was thirteen years old when Favre won his ring, and not nearly the football fan I am now. I also didn’t possess the bloody perspective I have now, so I think I can offer something different, here: I came of age getting to know Brett Favre as a whiner, an overrated manipulator. He had mediocre seasons in 2005 and 2006. He was declining. And then, when he should have been a grownup, he came off as a teenage malcontent, upset when he didn’t get his way, upset when he didn’t feel as loved as he thought he should. My friends and I use a golf metaphor when talking about our troubles: “Play it where it lies.” Favre hit the ball in the sand, and now he wants a drop on the fairway. Well, I’m sorry, but as much joy and happiness he brought Packers fans over the years, he was compensated richly, and the organization bowed to his demands and quirks. Remember Javon Walker’s holdout? Remember how many years he did his retirement dance, effectively insisting the Packers put personnel moves on hold so that he could hog the offseason spotlight? The Packers–rightly–see last season as something of a fluke, and they’re far better off betting a younger player’s talent can carry them than they are betting that 05-06 was the fluke, and Favre has recaptured the magic and it will continue at age 39. My opinion of who he is today isn’t colored by his accomplishments as a young man, and it’s not a pretty picture.
Going out on top certainly helps elevate certain players, especially when the end is unvoluntary.
Would there be a “Cult of Koufax” if he wound down his career naturally, his skills slowly deteriorating over time? While he would still be put on a pedestal by a certain generation of fans for not pitching on Yom Kippuer, I don’t there he would have the mystic status he attained without his career being cut short.
I think a big part of this is that we project our own wishes and desires onto athletes.
“Why doesn’t he just retire/go out on top?”
Easy for the fan who has never played pro sports to say. Give up the adulation of 60,000 fans every Sunday, the camaraderie of the locker room, not to mention several million dollars a year? How very magnanimous of you, Joe Fan, who *isn’t* actually giving up any of those things yourself.
A similar thing happens when we all assume an older player who has never won a championship *must* want a trade to a contender. I’m from Toronto (though not a Leaf fan), and this city just couldn’t believe that Mats Sundin wouldn’t waive his no-trade clause at the trading deadline, even though he has steadfastly always maintained that he loves Toronto (not the team, the *city*), and wants to stay here. Maybe winning a championship isn’t as important to him as playing in a city he loves to live in. But the fan can’t understand that, because it isn’t a consideration for the fan – the only thing they can think of is a championship (probably because *they* are living in the city they want to be in…).
I have never had a problem with an athlete trying to hang on as long as he/she could. Whether it’s just for the love of the game/competition or even if it’s just for the money. If they’re not good enough, they’ll be told.
Now, the way Favre has handled things isn’t necessarily the best way to do it.
nate has it right. favre was pretty damn good last year. i had him on my fantasy team for awhile and he was definitely better than the 2 qb’s i initially drafted.
i don’t mind favre’s specific dealing with the situation. it’s the media that won’t let it die (hey espn: we are sick of it, and we don’t care).
as for jordan, i remember when i thought he was ruining his legacy by coming back that last time. but then he scored 49 or 50 something points in that one game with the wizards, and from that point on his legacy was fine and intact in my mind. tyring to play (and sucking) for the white sox ruined his legacy for me far more than any basketball season.
“Brett Fav-ruh, what are you doing here?”
“I’m in town to play the Dolphins, ya dum-ass.”
That sealed his legacy right there, pal.
Joe, your post about athletes nearing the end of their primes reminds me of the poem by Dylan Thomas that starts:
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Admittedly, the poem is about death, but the principle still applies. There’s something admirable about seeing a player hold on to the game he loves until he is forced, kicking and screaming from the field. It may not be dignified, but the very passion and desire to be kings of their domain – things we love to watch while they’re in their prime – is what drives athletes to stick around too long.
On the other hand, I agree with Nate above. Favre is still one of the three or four best QBs in the game. It’s not like he’s guaranteed an undignified end this year. He’s clearly good enough to take a ton of teams to the playoffs.
btw, i feel much more strongly about musicians who go out in flames thus “saving” their legacies, than athletes.
kurt cobain, jeff buckley, syd barrett, nick drake, ian curtis, john lennon, brian wilson?? brilliant. genius, amazing.
pearl jam, rolling stones, the other beach boys, any other band still around in their 50s and 60s??? (minus bob dylan, thurston moore, lou reed, and neil young) hurry up and die or go crazy already!
Aw, Phil, I’m just playing. I mean these things are all subjective, and while I think “The Natural” is kinda shlocky and a bit tedious in parts, it obviously doesn’t full-on “suck” in a world that also contains “Gigli” and “The Postman”. If nothing else, the “tear the cover off the ball” scene is funny enough that even I kind of enjoy it.
Personally, my tastes run more to the “gritty realist” end of the Sports Movie spectrum (“Eight Men Out”, “Bull Durham”) and less toward the “magical realist” end of the spectrum (“Field of Dreams”, “The Natural”). I imagine that puts me in the minority, but that’s alright.
The only way Favre could ruin his legacy is by getting caught cheating. I really like Favre, and I think part of it is BECAUSE he doesn’t have a Jordan’esque legacy to tarnish. He’s a darn good QB, but only the deluded would consider him in an argument about the best of all time. His legacy is his work ethic and his love for the game. He’s the NFL’s Cal Ripken.
I can’t say Green Bay is wrong in switching QB’s, but I wish they’d just let him go play elsewhere without a fuss.
I wouldn’t put Favre in the top few in the league this year — PFR had him 7th last year, but it was a spectacular year for him, all things considered. I’m guessing if he returns, he’ll be in the middle of the pack.
I wish the 49′ers would take him; It would seem poetic to me. They traded away Joe Montana, Ronnie Lott, Jerry Rice, etc. It’d be nice to see things go the other way for once. Plus lord knows they could use him…
David A:
What is with everyone insisting that Favre’s annual retirement dithering was an attempt to hog the spotlight? Has it occurred to anyone that maybe it was a difficult decision and he wanted to consider it for awhile? I understand that it was annoying year after year (both for fans and team), but shouldn’t the media be held somewhat accountable for ramming the story down our throats? Also, in the current situation I don’t see how he’s acting like a ‘teenage malcontent’ as you so eloquently to him refer. Obviously he put himself in this position but he’s asked for his job back and failing that he’s asked to be released so that he can pursue a job elsewhere. Money, adulation, camaraderie aside could he simply want to play football? He has certainly handled the situation poorly, but he’s not substantively wrong in his desire to play somewhere.
In a broader sense, why are athletes so frequently held to a ridiculous standard? Brett Favre has played football essentially his entire life. He’s old (relatively speaking), injured, exhausted, and probably questions his ability to endure another season. When he retires he gives up not only his livelihood but the focus of his life and a large part of his identity. He does not realistically have the opportunity to play again a few years from now. All told, this seems like a pretty big decision to make, yet we are annoyed that he takes longer than we think appropriate to make said decision. Let us hope that we are not all held to this standard! This year he decided to retire. A few months hence, he changed his mind. Why is he crucified for this? How many of us have left a job only to return and humbly ask for it back? I have! He was told that he could not have it back. This is of course the Packers prerogative, and Favre should certainly have considered this possibility when retiring. The real trouble is that the Packers not only don’t want him, but they don’t want anyone else to have him. While it is within their rights contractually to so do (leaving aside the fact that NFL contracts favor the team to an unthinkable extent-this opinion coming from someone as anti-labor/union as one can be) it really doesn’t seem to be the fair thing to do.
All of that said, it would be a lot more satisfying to support Favre had he handled this fiasco with more tact (to put it euphemistically).
I like The Natural, but it is an inherently flawed movie because of how they manipulated Malamud’s book to make it fit Hollywood. The general theme of the book is that no one ever really learns anything. It’s downright depressing, although still has power. The Glenn Close character, by the way, is not from his past in the book, and there’s no son. And, of course, he strikes out at the end, leading to a Shoeless Joe reference with a kid addressing Roy. When you so fundamentally change the purpose of a story, you inevitably get some strangeness. That said, it is wonderfully filmed, sets moods and uses lighting brilliantly.
On Favre, while I’m tired of hearing about it, I tend to take the Bill James stance — it’s Favre’s legacy, who the hell are any of us to say what he should do with it.
Favre has not returned calls from Tampa and the New York Jets as of yet, at least according to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. So while some say that the Packers are just trying to keep him from going elsewhere (And that may be true to an extent), Brett Favre has to reach out and talk to these teams too. Nobody is going to deal with the Packers for him if he doesn’t give the indication he is open to the move. The cynic might even look at that and think that Favre is playing games with the Packers until he gets exactly what he wants, the starting gig in Minnesota.
I think the Packers would be open to moving him somewhere at this point, but they just don’t want it to be inside the division. Favre’s actions so far haven’t made a move possible, however. That doesn’t get much mention, but it seems pretty noteworthy.
I assumed Harriet Bird killed herself for the same reason she shot the others: She was crazy.
Always thought The Natural was a dull movie partly redeemed by an amazing score and some nice cinematography. Believe me, I wanted to love it.
I don’t believe in legacies for athletes. Do what you love until nobody will pay you to do it anymore. People mostly remember you at your best. Mays stint with the Mets was unfortunate, but at least 100 times more has been written about his greatness than his end.
So I don’t think Favre is tarnishing his future legacy. He’s just being selfish in the present. I guess I’m in the minority in that I side with the Packer front office, with the exception of this new report that they’ve offered Favre 20 million to stay retired.
In terms of sporting events, watching Brett Favre run onto Lambeau Field wearing a purple helmet for the first game of the season would be an all-time great moment in my book.
The Natural is brilliant, despite the fact Redford ruined the ending. Richard Farnsworth is just what I always thought an old coach would look and act like. Don’t really care for Basinger (but she sure is easy on the eyes).
Question: did Gus Sands mention losing the $100K in the book as well?
Find the book that talks about the revival of baseball in Buffalo (forgot the title). It credits using War Memorial Stadium during the filming of the movie as a catalyst in the revival.
Bird shot herself because killing Hobbs made her the best sport assassin in the world, & that was her next category.
(Of course, I haven’t seen the film…)
Brett Favre is a superb football player with plenty of good football left in him. The problem is that the sport of football has too many other issues going on with it. Teams need to know before the draft (preferably *long* before the draft) if elder statesmen are coming back, because it affects how they draft, what their salary cap looks like, what free agents they sign: a lot of stuff.
Favre ended the season with perhaps the most disappointing loss of his life, playing in terrible conditions, losing to a team they were favored to beat, and certainly getting banged up plenty on the frozen tundra in Green Bay. As anybody knows who is past their twenties, it takes longer to heal. You need more sleep, more rest, and more mental down time as well as physical. And for most football players, and I’m sure that Favre is like Jerry Rice and Walter Payton and LaDamian Tomlinson in this, football is not a six month sport. To be the best, to be able to take all those hits and still be able to play well, you have to train nearly year round. I’m sure when he retired, Favre was mostly retiring from mental burnout; he’d lost a terrible game, and he didn’t have the will power to drag his aching body into the weight room to start getting ready for the next season. And the Pack needed an answer early, and he was probably later than he’d ever been in not being able to start training again, and he retired.
But given another month or two of rest, and warmer weather, and spring, the juices started flowing. Favre loves football. Nobody who plays as often as he plays does so without loving it. He has had plenty of unimportant if not meaningless games he refused to sit out, even though an extra week of rest late in the season both would help his substitute and would get Favre readier for the playoffs. I’ve seen Favre late in blowouts and always wondered, “What idiot coach isn’t taking advantage of this great opportunity to get the backup some snaps and protect the health of his star QB?” But I’m sure it’s Favre; he *loves* to play, and doesn’t care about winning nearly so much as he cares about playing.
And with the juices flowing again, Favre came back. Why wouldn’t he? Unitas, Namath, Mays, those guys were allowed to leave because their teams had better players ready to take their spots. And even though they’d had bad years, they couldn’t hang it up. But Favre didn’t have a bad year; he had a great year, one of his best, one of the best ever for a Green Bay quarterback. I mention GB because it’s a lot easier playing half your games on turf, with no wind chill freezing your face, good traction, no hands slipping on wet or icy balls. It’s hard to remember now, but at the start of the 2007 season I think you could have won a lot of money at Vegas if you’d bet that the Packers would have held home field advantage in the NFC title game. He improved from the year before, and the Packers improved, and he still is an excellent quarterback.
And anybody who expects this guy who loves to play so much that he refuses to leave games, refuses to let his consecutive game string get broken, refuses to do what’s best for the team when it interferes with him having fun, is mistaken. Favre had always been selfish in that way. But he’s so good it’s easy to confuse selfish with dedicated.
I don’t see an easy solution for the Favre dilemma. I don’t know what happened behind closed doors. I think Favre thinks that the Pack should have given him more time before forcing him to say yes or no, and since they didn’t give him that time they didn’t want him, but now he wants to play. I don’t think he’s sold on having to join the Bears or Vikings, to prove the Packers wrong. But I bet he’d prefer it. And I’m sure that all the teams that could really really use Favre for a year or two, and would give him a good shot at another ring (Baltimore leaps to mind, and Tampa Bay might be another, and maybe even Houston) are holding out for bottom dollar, and the Packers are maybe holding out for top dollar knowing that the longer they go before trading, the less likely is the worst thing in the world to happen. The worst thing in the world would be for Favre to win a ring somewhere else. But the Packers also promised Aaron Rodgers he’d be the guy, and he’s been forced to sit in so many fourth quarter blowouts when normal first round QB draft choices would be getting some experience because Favre’s selfish, and if the Packers slap Rodgers in the face by letting Favre win the starting job, Rodgers will walk when his contract is up. And then the Packers will find Favre retiring in a year or two, and have no QB of the future with years invested in grooming him and paying him first round QB money so he’d be there when Favre finally went down.
I know this is pretty much a family site, so I’m going to change my usual phrase for this kind of stalemate to appendage waving. The word I usually use is much shorter than appendage, and only men have one. Once the appendage waving starts, everybody loses. And yes, Favre and the Packers are busy waving their appendages at each other. But I’m not surprised. Favre is great, one of the best of all time, but he’s never been a team player when it meant he should sit down.
Just one fan’s opinion: I think that in the next CBA it should be resolved that if a player retires and is reinstated his previous contract is voided and he is treated like a drafted rookie. His last team holds his rights for one year and the team can either sign the player or trade his rights.
The unfairness of the Favre situation stems from the fact that the Packers are now handcuffed by a contract that Favre chose to abandon.
You want to retire and then come back? Okay, fine. People change their minds. But why does Favre get to come back with his huge salary and trade approval in place? Those are elements of a contract he walked out on!
Question: Are you glad Joe Montana played for the Chiefs?
Chiefs fans?
49 fans?
“and now everybody has grown sick of this story ”
It’s now really NOW that everybody has grown sick of this story. Most people were sick of it two years ago, when the “Favre announces that he had some milk this morning, still doesn’t know if he’ll make a decision today on whether he’ll have a press conference tomorrow to announce the day when he might decide if he’s going to retire or not,” circus was in full swing.
And as for Favre’s legacy, here’s the legacy that I remember : A guy that absolutely KILLED his team for five straight years by throwing the most ridiculous interceptions, because he’s too stubborn/stupid to realize that he can’t throw into triple coverage anymore and thread the needle.
Then he gets one year where suddenly he’s actually doing okay, he’s managing the game better, he’s not throwing so many stupid interceptions, the Packers are miraculously winning every game, nobody wants to take them seriously, but in the end you kind of have to. And then, through sheer fortune, they get to play the championship game at home, against Eli, in the cold, and it’s smooth sailing, right? Favre in the cold!
And, ofcourse, when it all comes down to it, he apparently has another seizure, believes it’s 1997 again, and tries to throw into … what’s the word for 11 man coverage? Eleptiple? … eleptiple coverage, and hey, guess what, that got intercepted, game over. When it really mattered, he just became the guy again that KILLED his team.
But, everybody figures, hey, he’s been good this year, so he’ll come back, right? But no. Favre retires. All the tears and the ridiculous emotional drama and blablablabla, but at least he’s gone, he went out his own way, etc.
Until next spring, and then HE wants to play again. Hey Brett, have you ever considered that maybe Green Bay is tired of you KILLING them in every big game with your stupid passes into 5000 man coverage?
His legacy is that of a guy who didn’t know when to quit.
Also, if Brett is REALLY considering taking the 20 million dollars to stay retired, his legacy becomes that of a tool.
If you REALLY want to play, then say to the Packers “trade me.”
Stop trying to be released so YOU can decide where you can go play, it doesn’t work that way. You’re an asset, the team needs to get something back for you. But if you’re so convinced that you can still be an elite quarterback, you should also be convinced that you can turn any team around with your awesome passing accuracy.
So if you truly, desperately want to play, then go play, wherever it is. And don’t entertain this “well, they’ll offer me 20 million bucks to stay retired,” notion.
(And how insane it is for the Packers to be offering the guy 20 million bucks? Twenty Million Freaking Dollars!)
Joe, love your stuff, but I disagree here. Until three months ago, Farve’s legacy was as you describe it, but there’s always been a part of his legacy that was as Creston describes it above. And that’s becoming his dominant legacy with his shenanigans.
What you (and others) are missing with the “they really want Rodgers?” thing is that the Packers front office, like any good front office, is looking ahead. Right now they have a very solid team, with an improving defense, young talent at the skill positions in Jennings and Ryan, and one of the best O-Lines in the game. They’re very possibly a contender for years to come. The final piece would be a QB.
So the question is, simply, do you toss a guy you’ve liked for years, and has studied your system for years, for one more year with a guy whose skills are clearly diminishing? If yo uchoose to do so, you are virtually 100% guaranteeing that you will have to start from scratch at the most important position in the game in 2009, to some extent wasting years of putting together a deep, talented club. Or do you see if that final piece is good enough to play QB for you for the next 5-7 years, and if so, sit back and enjoy a great football team?
Dave, re: Favre hogging the spotlight –
Just to take one example, Rod Smith has had the “should he retire or shouldn’t he” dilemma the past few years. He’s a potential Hall of Famer with a rich legacy, yet nary a press conference was called to discuss it, and nary a text message was sent to Peter King or equivalent. Jerry Rice never pulled this stuff. Tim Brown. Warren Sapp. Junior Seau unretired to play again, but there was no public jerking around of his teammates and organization. Tiki Barber, as unlikeable as he’s become, said he would retire, followed through with it, and stayed retired. I guarantee there were dozens of NFL players who had the same issue over the years, probably a few of Favre’s stature in the game, and only Strahan managed to turn it into a production the way Favre did, and he only did it once.
I’ve referred to him as a malcontent because that’s exactly what he is. He was given every opportunity to come back to the Packers, including multiple instances after the retirement announcement when the team contacted him and said they wanted him back, and he insisted he wanted to stay retired. Then, after the draft, after the Packers felt they’d had closure with Favre and had begun the process of moving on, Favre asked for his old job back. He went back on his word, and now he’s leaking pouting messages to the public because the Packers have plans that they’re unwilling to change for him. Boo freaking hoo.
On top of all of it, I think the Packers agree with me that Favre is not a good bet to be a top six or seven QB next season. Neither is Rodgers, but at a certain point, if you’ve got an old QB and a young QB, and neither is a surefire championship talent (in Favre’s case, you can add “anymore”), you’ve got to see if the young QB might have something in him that indicates he can do it in the future.
The Favre column is hilarious to anyone who has
watched him singlehandedly dismantle a play off team
like the New York Jets. Legacy? Try the legacy of Pete Rose
when talking about Brett Favre. Those last five games had
“mob gambling” on them, not “injured shoulder in need of a
MRE”. Like Rose, Favre felt he could control every element
of the games he played in…but always “betting that his team would win”. Really Favre is more like Denny McClain of 1972….It has
probably gotten real ugly for Brett…perhaps he got whacked on the
shoulder by gamblers trying to “improve his aim”….It will all
come out and his claim on the Football Hall of Fame will be
dead when it does.