Does anyone ever “feel” like eating something? I wonder about this because it seems universal … whenever you ask someone, “So, what do you feel like eating?” they will inevitably say that they don’t have an opinion. They are open to anything. It’s up to you. Really. Whatever. It’s all good. I can eat anything. I’m not picky. Would I look like this is I was picky? Ha ha. No seriously, whatever you want is good with me. About the only thing you might get when asking someone what they feel like eating is one thing they definitely DON’T feel like eating
What do you feel like eating?
I’m really open. Anything but fish.
What do you feel like eating?
Well, I had Chinese for lunch, so anything but Chinese.
What do you feel like eating?
I’m kind of on a diet, so probably not pasta, although I LOVE pasta, but I probably shouldn’t.
This sort of culinary guessing game would be annoying enough … but inevitably, it’s all a big lie. Nobody really is open to anything. And you will see that when you say, “OK, well, there’s a good Mexican place around the corner.” That’s when they will respond, “Ooh, Mexican, wow, I’m kind of having a little heartburn lately, I shouldn’t do that.” Then, you’ll talk about a great deli, and they will say, “Um, no, I was kind of thinking about more of a sit-down place, you know, someplace we could chat.” Then you talk about a cool neighborhood place, and they will say, “Oh, no, that’s way too crowded, I’m getting kind of hungry.”
And this, I’m convinced, is why Red Lobster and Fridays are doing killer business. Because that’s where our relentless “I’m open to anything” conversations end up.
Anyway, what I want to scream during that “I’m open to anything” moment is this: JUST SAY IT. I understand that people are trying to be accommodating. I understand that at the moment they’re saying they do not care they really mean it — bending the words of the brilliant Nick Hornby, they really would be happy to go to any restaurant in the whole wide word except for every restaurant you can think of. I understand. I’m often there myself. But I do think it would save all of us a lot of time and a lot of aggravation if, when asked what we feel like eating, we would simply said: “I want Italian.”
You will ask now how this related to Tony Pena Jr. I’m glad you asked: It seems like few people want to just come out and say it. A lot of people want to just tiptoe around the TJ thing. It’s understandable; people don’t want to come across as too naive, too eager, too silly, too much of a baseball rube. I get that. But I have this sense that a lot of people are feeling the same thing, and so let me just say it now.
It is time for the Royals to make Tony Pena Jr. a pitcher.
Sure, it’s ridiculous. Sure it’s goofy. Sure, Tony Pena had a prominent spot on Deadspin after he threw his scoreless inning the other night, thus filling their annual “Man, the Royals suck” quota. Sure, it’s just plain madness to get excited about a scoreless inning thrown by a shortstop in a 19-5 game when the Detroit Tigers were just plain tired of kicking butt. Sure, it’s all true.
BUT … it is still time for the Royals to make Tony Pena Jr. a pitcher. Seriously. I think it is time because the biggest problem I have with baseball decision makers, the biggest issue I have with the people who run the game, is that it seems they lack imagination. They dismiss the new. They will not take risks. Even now, long after Moneyball, there are still those in the game who seem entirely dismissive of those little things called statistics.*
*I know this to be true because last week, Philadelphia traded two prospects for pitcher Joe Blanton. Now, let me say, it’s not impossible that Joe Blanton will pitch well for the Phillies and be the difference-maker down the stretch. He’s pretty young, experienced, he’s pretty young. And all that. He’s pretty young. It’s not impossible. It’s also not impossible that the phone ringing in the kitchen right now is a call from Bruce Springsteen asking if I want to join him on tour, you know, just to hang out. It’s not impossible, but you will note that I’m not getting up to answer it. If it’s Bruce, he’ll call back.
And “not impossible” is just about as far as I would be willing to go on the Blanton deal. It COULD work just like that essay for history class you made up at 3 a.m. the night before COULD get an A. But it won’t work. If you take a cursory look at Blanton’s statistics, sure, he’s 47-46 and his career ERA is 4.27. OK, average pitcher — almost the definition of an average pitcher. His numbers were pretty good in 2007 (14-10, 3.95 ERA) and they have been lousy this year (5-12, 4.96 ERA). He’s a control pitcher who doesn’t strike out many and who gives up hits, but he does sink the ball so he doesn’t give up a lot of home runs. Fine. Average pitcher. Well, those guys can help you.
But is he really an average pitcher? Well, as a GM, you might take more than a cursory look at a players statistics. And if you look closer — Blanton isn’t an average pitcher. He’s a pitcher whose numbers LOOK average because he has been pitching in Oakland, probably the best pitcher’s park in the American League, maybe in all of baseball. Take a look at that 2007 season again, in split form:
Home: 2.69 ERA, batters hit .227/.256/.308 against him.
Road: 5.11 ERA, batters hit .304/.337/.438 against him.
That looks a lot different, doesn’t it? His career splits are not quite as dramatic … but dramatic enough …
Blanton at home: 3.79 ERA, batters hit .258/.304/.386 against him.
Blanton away: 4.78 ERA, batters hit .290/.337/.438 against him.
This year, he made six of his 20 Oakland starts away from home. Still, the numbers are about the same …he’s still allowing about one run more per game.
Home: 4.63 ERA.
Road: 5.73 ERA
Houston, we have a trend. OK, now, let’s go to the second part of the equation: Philadelphia is one of the WORST pitchers parks in the National League (or one of the best hitters parks, if you prefer). Last year, it was the easiest homer park in the game by a longshot.
Is this really a mystery? Do we really wonder what will happen? Bill James, in many ways, made his bones in the early 1980s when he predicted that Fred Lynn’s numbers would dramatically fall after he was traded. He has told me that it was no big deal — it was obvious that Lynn’s numbers were inflated by Fenway Park, plus he was past his prime, plus he’d had injuries. The thing Bill said that was surprising was not that the prediction came through but that so few others seemed to see the obvious coming.
So look at this: Seriously, what do you think is going to happen when Joe Blanton pitches for Philadelphia most days? Where would you bet your money? Obviously Philadelphia knew all this before making the trade. But they obviously believed other factors carried more weight. And that’s fine, you know, I really am a huge believer in scouts, I think they are essential to the game — if not for the hard work and keen eyes of a scout, the Royals never sign Joakim Soria. But that said, if I’m the Philly GM, and a scout says to me: “Hey, I’ve been watching Blanton throw. His stuff is really sharp, I really think he can help us,” I gotta believe my response would be: “Um, yeah, listen, I’m looking at his home/road splits here, and then I was looking at our ballpark, and, you know, why don’t you see if you can find us a Joakim Soria in Mexico.”
But the trade was made, which tells me that even though everybody SHOULD understand what Billy Beane is doing since, you know, it was in a best-selling book — some people still don’t see it.
Back to my issue with baseball people. So many people in the game just write off what’s new, what’s quirky, what’s different, what might work but also might not work. I remember very clearly during spring training when Royals manager Trey Hillman — who should be open to all sorts of new things because he’s been in JAPAN the last five years — talked about how he would “think out of the box.” And then, as an example, he said that he might hit Ross Gload third in the lineup. That was his idea of thinking out of the box. Now, to be fair (and to his everlasting credit), Hillman has not actually HIT Gload third this year. And this should not be taken for granted; Buddy Bell gave Gload 69 plate appearances in the No. 3 spot last year. Still, it is telling that this was the first thing that came to mind when talking about outside-the-box thoughts — hitting Ross Gload third.*
*Back to thinking out of the box, I hope Hillman has not given up on the idea of leading off Mark Teahen after only two games. For one thing, it’s very bad form to make judgements based on two games. But second, if you insist on making judgements, the Teahen in the leadoff spot actually WORKED in the grand scheme of things. True, Teahen struggled individually. But … the Royals scored nine runs and won the first game in Chicago, and they scored eight runs and won the second game in Chicago. David DeJesus hit well in the No. 3 spot, others played more relaxed, heck I can’t explain it all. I do know that for some reasons, when the team got home, Teahen was out of the lineup, and DeJesus was back in the leadoff spot. And in the last three games the Royals have scored a total of six runs. Free Mark Teahen!
This brings us back around to Tony Pena. There are a few things to look at here.
1. Tony Pena Jr. is done as an everyday Major League shortstop. We all know that. To be blunt, I suspect 29 other teams never thought he had a chance to BE an everyday Major League shortstop to start with. The Royals gave him a chance — they really didn’t have much of a choice — and he did some good things. He’s a good fielder (though there is some argument about how good), and last year he poked seven triples. But he cannot hit (no argument there) and everybody who watched him grow up in the minors knew that long ago. The guy’s minor league line was .252/.282/.332 and that was over more than 2,500 at-bats. There is no reasonable possibility of this changing. He can’t run, he doesn’t walk, he’s never learned how to bunt and his swing is longer than the drive from El Paso to Marshall. This problem ain’t going away.
2. Tony Pena Jr. offers only limited value as a utility player. He no doubt COULD play second base, third base, the outfield, but he almost never has. Plus, you would like your utility players to offer SOME offensive value. Pena is hitting .152/.174/.201 this year. You are no doubt wondering if any player has ever gotten 150 at-bats and had all three core numbers in the 100s — a sub .200 batting average, on-base percentage and slugging percentage.
Well, I’m proud to say, it has, 16 times, the last in 1972 when the young Vic Harris went .140/.192/.177 in 198 plate appearances and the old Maury Wills went .129/.190/.167. Before that, you have to go back to the legendary Tony Martinez in 1963. Before that, you have to go back to Deadball.
Point is, Pena is SUCH a limited hitter that, with today’s rosters that have 12 pitchers, you simply cannot afford to have him, even if he was Phil Rizzuto at short. We’ll get back to this roster thing in a moment.
3. There really was SOMETHING in the air the other night when he pitched. Sure, a lot of it was just the goofiness of the moment, the buzz of seeing something unusual, but I still say that if you see a guy throwing in the low 90s from a low arm angle and you see some sink and life on his pitches and he flashes at least the makings of a breaking ball, hey, you might take a flier on that guy. Plus, this guy’s father was an All-Star catcher. Plus, he’s a good clubhouse guy. Plus, he’s a good guy period.
Put all that together … yeah, why not make him a pitcher. More than that, I explore the possibilities of making him a whole new thing — a utility pitcher. Sure, why not? As Bill James points out, long ago, in the early days of baseball, this was common, pitchers played the field, fielders pitched, there obviously wasn’t much specialization. The focus of the game changed so dramatically that these days nobody will even let a pitcher catch a pop-up on the infield.
Well, why is the wall so high? As far as I can tell, pitchers in Little League, in high school, even in college, these guys are usually the best athletes on the field, and often the best hitters in the lineup. Then they get drafted, and they have to make a choice. I know there are good reasons for the choice — baseball people are convinced that you have to focus on one thing, pitchers have to work on their own schedule, hitters have a different mindset, and so on and so on.
But to me, if you want to think outside the box … how about a guy who can pitch the eighth inning, and be your defensive replacement at shortstop in the ninth? How about a shortstop who specializes in getting out right-handed batters so that when the other team pinch-hits, you can send him in from shortstop (assuming you let him warm-up between innings)? How about a whole new kind of swing man who can fill multiple roles on your 25-man roster, freeing you up to add a platoon guy or a pinch-hitter or a lefty-specialist or something?
How about you have a guy who, if you’re being entirely honest, has no real future as a Major League shortstop. And you notice that he has some interesting pitching talents? Maybe you try to find out just how good he can be. Pena has said he doesn’t want to be a pitcher … he sees himself as a shortstop. But I would definitely talk to him because it’s possible nobody else sees him that way. And you know, a guy who throws 91 in a jokey situation might throw 94 after a little training and mechanical adjustment.
And that’s all I would like to know. Can he do it? Because it seems to me the more I’m around sports that the people running the games don’t always know as much as they claim to know. The St. Louis Rams had grocery stocker Kurt Warner as their third string quarterback — he was never going to SNIFF the artificial turf — and because of a series of mishaps he ended up being the starter. And he ended up taking the team to the Super Bowl championship. The Kansas City Chiefs signed Priest Holmes as a third-down back, a guy they hoped could give fullback Tony Richardson a breather now and then. He ended up setting the NFL touchdown record. The St. Louis Cardinals drafted a junior college player with no position named Albert Pujols in the 13th round of the draft. They brought him to camp the next year, he showed them some talent, he made the club and he ended up having one of the great rookie years in baseball history.
And so on … there are still mysteries in these crazy games. And it bugs me whenever baseball people act like they know what’s going to happen. Maybe Tony Pena Jr. has no real potential as a pitcher and the idea is just plain stupid. Or maybe he’s utterly unhittable. I know which way I would guess, but I don’t want to guess. I want to KNOW. And I really hope the Royals find out. Heck, I’ve seen Ross Gload in the No. 3 spot. I KNOW that doesn’t work.
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73 Comments, Comment or Ping
Andy
I really AM open to anything. I have food allergies, but other than that, the only thing I ever don’t want to eat is whatever I just ate for my last meal. I could alternate between peanut butter and cheese for every meal for the rest of my life and be satisfied. I have never ONCE been “hungry for” something.
Jul 23rd, 2008
Justyo
Tell it like it is, Joe. Tell it like it is!
And I want to know too dammit!
Jul 23rd, 2008
Steve from Cleve
I love the idea of Pena as righty specialist/late inning defensive replacement. I know he says he likes being a shortstop, but I think if Royals management talked to him, really told him the score, that he has no future in the organization as a shortstop, that he could be a significant part of the team if his pitching transition goes well…I think he’d do it, maybe reluctantly at first, but he’d do it nonetheless.
Jul 23rd, 2008
Dusty
i don’t think he really deserves to “like being a shortstop”, with his OPS+ at what, like, -1000 right now? he should be thankful for anyone to let him play ANYTHING
Jul 23rd, 2008
Will
It makes so much sense that I’m afraid no one will try it for fear that it’s too obvious to have a chance but honestly at the plate Pena’s not even a decent Double A hitter.
Jul 23rd, 2008
Dr.Funkenstein
the utility pitcher idea is a great one..need someone like La Russa or Bobby V to have the cojones to try it…
..btw, i live outside the US and was just browsing through “Deadspin” which you linked to…who on earth are Erin Andrews and Jenn Sterger?? Are they in any way famous for anything beyond their looks? (And in Sterger’s case, she is butt-ugly…)
Jul 23rd, 2008
Jimmy
Are you really suggesting that Pat Gillick simply never bothered to check Joe Blanton’s home/away splits before trading prospects for him? Seems like there must be more to the story.
Jul 24th, 2008
Johnny
Trevor Hoffman was an infielder for a while, though not in the big leagues. That switch seemed to work out pretty well.
I could go for some barbecue.
Jul 24th, 2008
Damon Rutherford
I want a gyro.
And I want my children to grow up and read JoeBlog when they’re slacking off in college or at work.
Can JoeBlog become a subscription site? Can we send JoeBlog money? Or perhaps there is a part in the KC Star contract that forbids JoeBlog to receive money?
Well, even though I already read it thanks to the public library, I ordered TSoB via Amazon. (You want to know what else I purchased to receive free shipping? Fine — Neyer’s Legends book and John Mayer’s new concert DVD as a gift to my wife for her birthday.)
Jul 24th, 2008
Minda
What Dusty said. I don’t give a rip what TJ thinks he wants to do, because that does not help the team. I’m inclined to like the guy - he seems well-spoken and very decent as a person - but I cringe when I see him at the plate. And I don’t think anyone’s defense is special enough to support a .152 average.
Count me in as someone who wants to KNOW.
Jul 24th, 2008
Craig
Well I have been in Germany for he last 4 months and the day I get back if you ask me what I want to eat you will get an emphatic with zero to no delay TACO BELL! Oh man I miss that terrible Mexican food so much.
Jul 24th, 2008
B.E. Earl
Whatever they do needs to be done on a minor-league field someplace because Pena, who may be a “good guy”, clearly doesn’t belong in the majors doing what he is currently doing.
But I’m all for innovative change in the game.
Jul 24th, 2008
Dave B.
Tony Pena, Jr.: the anti-Ankiel.
Oh, and while I don’t always know what I want to eat when you ask me, I always know what I wanted once I’ve eaten it.
Kinda like obscenity.
Jul 24th, 2008
roarke
The things is, the person asking what someone else feels like eating is just as bad as the person that answers “I’m open to anything.” They are only asking because they don’t want to make the decision, so they push it off to the other person.
Jul 24th, 2008
Paul White
Given his minor league performance, would Tony Pena Jr. have EVER made the Majors if his name was something like, Phil Smith Jr., or Francisco De La Cruz Jr.?
In keeping with Joe’s “Just Say It” theme, I’m just going to say no, he wouldn’t.
Jul 24th, 2008
Mikey
Bravo for this post. Love it.
Gregg Easterbrook does a good job of regularly pointing out the cover-your-ass mentality that pervades NFL coaching and (I think) coaching in all sports. Coaches fear doing something unconventional, having it fail, and then having to defend it to the media.
This will never change until more members of the media champion unconventional thinking.
Whatever you think of him, you have to admire Bill Belichick’s willingness to make decisions with seemingly no regard at all for what the rest of the world will say. He’s the one guy in pro coaching (any sport) that I’d say regularly has ignored conventional wisdom.
Jul 24th, 2008
Taylor
This page is perhaps even less scholarly than a typical Wikipedia entry (as if that is possible), but it still summarizes a phenomenon that explains why people can’t decide where they want to go to eat:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox
I am unaware of anything, on Wikipedia or elsewhere, that might explain Tony Pena, Jr.
Jul 24th, 2008
Ron
My biggest fear: The Royals trade/release/put Pena through waivers and another team converts him to a pitcher. He then ends up pitching the 9th inning to win a World Series.
C’mon Trey/Dayton… Don’t put us through that!
Jul 24th, 2008
Noel
First of all I could really go for some pizza.
Secondly, this doesn’t seem to have much of a downside. (Tony Pena the pitcher, not pizza at 10 am) As mentioned, he clearly doesn’t have a future as a position player. Why not change? It’s happened before: Trevor Hoffman was a SS, Carlos Marmol started as a catcher, Brandon Backe was a position player, Danny Ainge was a 3B and world class instigator….
Plus it would probably boost Pena’s rep. Just think if he were an NL pitcher. Every announcer would say “You know, you can’t just lay the ball in there. This guy used to be a SS so he can hit”. Which isn’t true but it would make him feel better which would be nice.
Jul 24th, 2008
Craig Hooten
Okay Joe, I’ll bite.
Blanton’s career road ERA is lower than all but the top 2 Philadelphia starters this year.
Only Jamie Moyer and Adam Eaton(who has sucked at home AND on the road) have a markedly better road ERA this year among Philly starters.
Blanton also has a career 2.14 ERA in 21 innings against the Mets who last time I checked are tied with Philly for the division lead.
He also has a career 4.09 ERA agains the National League. The league ERAs in the NL the last 3 years have been 4.61, 4.61 and 4.47 this year.
You presented a stat that Philly was the easiest homer park in the game last year. But you stated yourself, Blanton sinks the ball so doesn’t give up many home runs… so I’m kinda missing your point here.
Jul 24th, 2008
SMK
I’m sure Ron Mahay could offer some useful input if anyone would ask him.
Jul 24th, 2008
Dan B
Here is the link to a youtube of the Pena inning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwgu2I2p6ms
Jul 24th, 2008
Dodge_Buck_Night
I really, desperately wish Mark Teahen could be a leadoff hitter. I’m with you, and everyone else who saw that the second half power surge of ‘06 was probably the exception with Mark and that the Royals needed to quit pretending he was going to be a 30 HR type of guy. BUT, with Mark’s OBP being just .318 this year - that’s the absolute last thing this infuriating Royals lineup needs at leadoff and getting the most ab. If the assumption is that he can get back to this .350 OBP level than I’ll be right there with you, once he does - but this year he seems lost, and he’s striking out way too much for KC to let him swing his way out of it at lead-off. I’m afraid sticking a .318 OBP guy at leadoff is the exact thing fans of other teams would look at KC and say - ‘well there’s one obvious problem.’
I think there’s an odd situation with TP the 2nd, version 2.0 (the pitcher). Before he pitched that 9th, I think the Royals could have slipped him through waivers with absolutely no problem at all. But is it actually possible now that the Royals have increased the likelihood that they CAN’T get him through waivers, as someone might take a flyer on him just to see if he could actually hold up as a pitcher? I would be 100% behind the idea of TPJ pitching if it was at some place like Burlington.
Jul 24th, 2008
Shane
The only big problem with this idea is that Pena has no options left. (Although, I think we could safely put him through waivers and get him to the minors without another team snatching him away.) We can’t afford to put him in games that have meaning so that he can learn to pitch at the major league level, and we can’t really assess his talent on the mound if he only pitches in games where we don’t have a whiff of a chance of coming back.
I am so very intrigued by this idea and it was SO fun to watch TPJ pitch the other day, that I would love to see him come in as a setup man in the 8th and stay in the game as a SS as a defensive replacement in the 9th. Plus, if he was a RHP/SS it wouldn’t look so bad when we pinch hit for him!
Jul 24th, 2008
Andrew
Zack Greinke would throw a fit! He wanted to try this (pitch and field) like three years ago!
Jul 24th, 2008
Steve Buffum
Me: Where do you want to eat?
Wife: Oh, I don’t have a preference, anything is fine.
Me: How about Place X?
Wife: Oh, no, not there.
Me: Okay, how about Place Y?
Wife: That’s too crowded this time of day, besides I don’t like their (something).
Me: Well, Place Z is on the way.
Wife: No, (insert reason).
Me: Well, where would you like to eat?
Wife: Why do I always have to make the decision?!
It’s the last line that kills me. Often. I am dead.
Anyway, I certainly agree that Pena should be given an off-season to work on pitching. Does he have options left? Could he be sent down for the remainder of this season? But I really think it would take a real, three-month “working like a pitcher” regimen to give this a real, honest shot. And really, what do the Royals or Pena himself have to lose trying?
By the way, the “truly-painful-to-watch oy-vey soap-in-my-eye utility player” you were looking for is Mike Rouse (.119/.200/.134). Yes, it was only 76 PA. I don’t care. He hurt my sclera.
Jul 24th, 2008
Mick
The best part of Pena’s pitching performance was he shook off the catcher several times!!
seems his arm angle and follow through is too herkyjerky, but you’re right. If the guy is throwing 91 MPH without pitching regularly, maybe he ought to consider a career move.
Jul 24th, 2008
Wade
Noel: Cold Pizza @ 10 a.m. is a great pixifood! I used to love waking up the days after we had pizza for supper. Now, I can get about two bites down and then start asking myself what the hell I was thinking.
Has Trey done anything impressive this year? Thinking outside the box? Like continuing to play Gload and having Butler sit on the bench? If the Royals are playing for 2009/10, Gload better not be a part of that plan. Why keep playing him?
Jul 24th, 2008
My Choice
Is always Mexican, not to be confused with Mexicution which is to tough.
If this organization is really that concerned with losing Pena through waivers then…… I don’t even know. When does football start?
Jul 24th, 2008
Jim Clark
Not that I’m looking for more ways to spend money (though I did buy both of Joe’s books!) but if this were a subscription site I could read it at home and then tell my wife, “Hey I gotta read this stuff, I’ve already paid for it!”
Jul 24th, 2008
Bellweather Johnson
I agree with Hooten. Blanton might end up being a bust, but it’s not like the Phils went Bedard to get him. Plus, the Phillies staff is not exactly the Braves of the late 90’s either.
Still, it seems like one more example of where Billy Beane is again, one step ahead of the curve…
Jul 24th, 2008
Chris
Another example: The Cards decided to give a burned out pitching prospect a shot in the outfield. That’s worked out pretty well.
Jul 24th, 2008
Steve from Cleve
Also, TPJ would likely be one of the best fielding pitchers ever. That first play he made was pretty sick.
Jul 24th, 2008
Rep
Are there still even any subscription sites, other then, umm, adult ones? Even the NYT is free.
This site has become a daily “must visit for me” Good stuff!
Jul 24th, 2008
Alex
In 2004, due to a rash of injuries, the New England Patriots were short on defensive backs. They took one of their offensive players and converted him to defense in the middle of the season.
From offense to defense in the middle of the season!!
Sure, back in the day players used to play both ways. And in pee-wee and high school football, this is not uncommon at all. Certainly the best athletes will be used as much as possible. But I cannot remember seeing anything like this in my lifetime at the pro level, and certain not with timing like this.
Is the pitcher/fielder divide really any greater than the offense/defense divide in football?
It has got to be worth a shot.
Jul 24th, 2008
Steve from Cleve
Unfortunately, all the news reports I’m reading portray Pena as being very stubborn about staying at SS. Do people keep sugarcoating things? Has anyone (and I don’t mean a fan, I mean a guy in the game of baseball, a guy Pena would listen to and respect) ever told him that he just plain stinks? It’s not the 60s, you can’t justify your existence just with a flashy glove, and people can’t even agree if TPJ is as good a defensive SS as advertised or not.
He has no future as a hitter. Can his dad tell him that? Would he listen then? Can Dayton tell him that? Or Trey? Or hell, how about Marky G, he’s a respected veteran presence, right? Just tell TPJ that he’s an awful hitter and that he looked impressive and composed on the mound and, above that, he looked like he was having fun!
Jul 24th, 2008
EdB
please, please don;t ever stop this site. I’ll even buy another copy of the Buck O’Neill book.
And, I’d like to see the Royals try Pena on the mound again soon. More than a novelty act, it might save his career.
Jul 24th, 2008
Bob Tholkes
I hope Bill James didn’t say it was common for fielders to pitch in the early days of baseball. In the days of 11-man rosters and limited schedules, through, say, the 1880s, clubs carried a primary pitcher and a “change” pitcher, who often fielded, at first base, like Guy Hecker, or, more usually, the outfield, or, rarely, the infield, like Monty Ward. But most fielders couldn’t and didn’t pitch.
Jul 24th, 2008
Rusty
I agree they should try him as a pitcher.
It wouldn’t even be that much of a novelty. Here are some other players (some of whom have been mentioned already) who switched from position player to pitcher:
Trevor Hoffman
Rafael Betancourt
Carlos Marmol
Tim Wakefield
Guillermo Mota
Ron Mahay
Brooks Kieschnick
Brandon Backe
Felix Rodriguez
Mariano Rivera was a scrawny, no-hit shortstop until the Yankees decided to sign him and make him a pitcher around age 20.
Also, the Padres are currently trying to convert #1 pick Matt Bush from a no-hit shortstop into a pitcher.
It seems to me to be the logical next step when you have a player who can’t hit but has a great arm.
Jul 24th, 2008
MikeJ
Kieschnick is the perfect example of thinking outside the box with this dual role, though the reasoning for his double duty was that he actually could mash a bit (unlike Pena) rather than fill in defensively like Pena would be best suited for.
Jul 24th, 2008
Cujo
Ok. I’ll just say it…Smokestack (or whatever you want to call the place…Fiorella’s…The Freighthouse..whatever) anytime anyone asks, I’m in.
About the other subject in the blog, what was it…oh yeah…Tony P. should be given three options by D. Moore to become a pitcher :
1) Do it.
2) Do it.
or
3) Do it.
Jul 24th, 2008
Scott
Rafael Soriano was a no hit outfielder in the Mariners org before they switched him over to a pitcher.
They asked him, when he said he was an outfielder they said, well you’re about 2 weeks from being an unemployed outfielder. He started pitching the next day.
Jul 24th, 2008
AJ
My friend made a godo point about Pena pitching — if someone just watched the youtube video with the sound off and no knowledge of the back story, they probably would not have noticed that Pena *wasn’t* a real pitcher.
Jul 24th, 2008
Buchholz Surfer
“Trevor Hoffman
Rafael Betancourt
Carlos Marmol
Tim Wakefield
Guillermo Mota
Ron Mahay
Brooks Kieschnick
Brandon Backe
Felix Rodriguez”
This list is a great start to determining the roster of the All-Pitcher/Hitter Team.
This team would be for players who played professionally as both a hitter and a pitcher. The higher level they played both positions at, the better.
You could have Ankiel in CF, Ruth in RF. Smoky Joe Wood was a star pitcher in the majors, hurt his arm and came back as a good hitter, so he’d be on there. Dave McCarty pitched and played backup 1B for the Red Sox a few years ago, so he could be on the bench.
Who else could be on the All-Pitcher/Hitter team?
Jul 24th, 2008
tippy
Didn’t LaRussa, just a little while back, use a reliever for an out, then stick him in the outfield for an out, then use him again? Fairly sure I remember that.
Jul 24th, 2008
Perry
@ Tippy:
I don’t recall that, and I follow the Cardinals pretty closely. Could have happened, but I don’t remember it. And Baseball Reference doesn’t show any Cardinal pitchers playing OF the last 3 seasons.
Whitey Herzog did it a couple of times in 1986, though, moving Todd Worrell to the OF and bringing a LOOGY (Ken Dayley).
Jul 24th, 2008
Perry
Another OF who switched to pitching at the big league level was Mel Queen, who hit .200/.232/.284 in 1964 and .127/.250/.145 in 1966 as an OF with the Reds. In 1966 he also pitched 7 innings in 7 games. The next year he converted to pitching full time and went 14-8, 2.76 in 195 innings as a starter, finishing 10th in the NL in ERA. Unfortunately he tore up his arm and although he hung on a few years more, he had only one more good year (1971), and that as a reliever.
Jul 24th, 2008
kc1fan8569
This and Rany on the Royals are the only two blogs I check all of the time… Love this site…
I did some checking to see if there is any hope in the minors for our TPJ/K like offensive performance and besides a couple of flash in the pans it doesn’t look like it…
Taking all of the minor league teams stats through today and removing anyone that hasn’t played more than 10 games. The Royals Minor league system is averaging.
.244/.321/.360 also have a 2.08:1 strikeout to walk ratio..
Compare that number to the Royals and removing Matt Tupman who only played in one game.
The Parent club is not much better.
.260/.311/.374 with a worse strikeout to walk ratio of 2.5:1
Now I don’t have the time to pull the other major league clubs and their minor league systems, but I was hoping for some light at the end of the tunnel… Instead I see a darker deeper hole…
Jul 24th, 2008
Incoming Message from Dr. Light
Re All Pitcher/Hitter team: Bob Lemon and George Sisler at 3B and 1B, obviously. Jack Bentley is another potential candidate; he played 1B and pitched, and was really damned good at both, for Baltimore in the IL (led the league in both ERA and RBI one season), and pitched for the Giants in large part because they already had two pretty good first basemen on the roster.
Jul 24th, 2008
Furious
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore?gid=280403115&page=plays
Braves vs. Pirates. Chris Resop pitched and played LF in same game.
Jul 24th, 2008
Creston
My wife does this to me all the time.
Me : What do you want to eat?
She : I’m fine with pretty much anything.
…. Yeah. But, like, burgers, or Chinese, or what?
It really doesn’t matter to me.
Okay. Let’s go eat pizza.
I don’t want pizza.
…
Sorry, what were we talking about? Oh, the Royals.
Jul 24th, 2008
Tony B
@Tippy / Perry:
Worrell made 4-5 appearances like that, over a couple of years. Once in the playoffs even I think (1987?).
Jul 24th, 2008
Tony B
Had to look it up, but Worrell did make a RF appearance in Game 6 of the 87 LCS.
He retired 2 batters in the 8th, struck out Will Clark in the 9th, and then moved to RF while Dayley got the last two outs to finish the 1-0 score.
How many managers today would try that in playoff game with a 10-0 score, let alone 1-0?
Jul 24th, 2008
CharlesH
Off topic for today’s post, but on for that of July 12, “The Da Vidro Code” you have Jim Riggleman’s explanation for batting Vidro clean up. An article on MLB.com by Jesse Baumgartner (did he get the idea for the interview from this blog?), and even better, FJM’s skewer of said explanation at http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080723&content_id=3179424&vkey=news_sea&fext=.jsp&c_id=sea
Jul 24th, 2008
Creston
“it was obvious that Lynn’s numbers were inflated by Fenway Park”
Oh dear Lord. Was it here that I got skewered for saying the same thing about Rice? Or maybe on Rob Neyer’s blog. I sure could have used your help then, JoePo!
Jul 24th, 2008
Creston
“how about a guy who can pitch the eighth inning, and be your defensive replacement at shortstop in the ninth?”
That’s kind of cute, but how often will it lead to wins? Or more granular(y)? how many runs does it save? Because like you already alluded to, he’s not Ozzie Smith.
The whole idea of making him a bullpen pitcher is so that he NEVER has to hit anymore. And if you then turn him into a bullpen pitcher that goes in for the ninth at shortstop, I’m thinking there’s going to come a point when, uhoh, you’re one run down, 2 outs, tying run at second and now batting… oh crap. TPJ.
Also, if you’re going to make him a pitcher, he needs to focus on PITCHING. Not focus somewhat half-assedly on pitching and half-assedly on fielding. Yes, in the cute old days we had guys that would pitch, then play right field, then short, then pitched again, and then sat down to catch.
Today we have : Guys who are far, far better at most aspects of baseball than those guys back then.
There is something to be said for specialization.
As for TPJ, does he still have any options? I don’t think so, right? So you can’t send him down to the minors.
So are you going to give him one of those 12 pitcher spots so he can try to figure out if he can BE a pitcher? Right in the middle of the season? That seems like something you’d try in spring training.
I’m not really sure that that’s a smart way to be thinking “out of the box.” Note that Ozzie Guillen said he’d do “out of the box” stuff in spring training too. (though he called it “crazy shit.)
And with that he meant he was going to make Dye, Thome and Konerko bunt, and put on the hit and run when it was not a hit and run situation.
If the White Sox win the Central, Ozzie and all the insane writers in Chicago will attribute it to Ozzie’s “out of the box” attitude. Even though anyone with limited use of the family braincell can see it’s because of their vastly increased pitching and this kid called Carlos Quentin, who got traded by the Diamondbacks because they’d rather have Eric Byrnes.
err…
/ramble.
When’s your new book coming out?
Jul 24th, 2008
Creston
“Are they in any way famous for anything beyond their looks? (And in Sterger’s case, she is butt-ugly…)”
Nobody looks at Jenn Sterger’s face…
Jul 24th, 2008
Creston
“Another example: The Cards decided to give a burned out pitching prospect a shot in the outfield. That’s worked out pretty well.”
AFTER Ankiel was in the minor leagues for well over a year, and had (IIRC) 27 homers at Memphis before he got called up.
There’s nothing wrong with trying something unorthodox. But that’s what you have the minor leagues for. And TPJ is out of options.
Jul 24th, 2008
James
Who else could be on the All-Pitcher/Hitter team?
How about Wes Ferrell?
Jul 24th, 2008
John
Joe, you must know that Charlie “Oddibe” Kerfeld is a faithful reader of your blog AND Pat Gillick’s special assistant.
Oh please, Oddibe, enlighten the masses in Philadelphia on the Blanton trade because most of the Phillies bloggers are saying exactly what Joe said. Why NOT look at this glaring difference in Blanton’s numbers?
Jul 24th, 2008
mike
Why are there no pitchers for the greatest living player vote?
Jul 24th, 2008
Wade
Because pitchers may be the best athletes in little league, but that gets lost along the way in college.
Jul 24th, 2008
matt
No options left…might get claimed off waivers…don’t want to put him in major league games as a pitcher yet…I got it! Keep him in his current role for the rest of the season while also working him out in the bullpen once in a while (not in games except when down 19-4), convince him to go play fall ball as a pitcher. Go play all winter as a pitcher. Come to spring training and try to win a bullpen job.
It could happen…
Jul 25th, 2008
Jay
If Mr. Ankiel can make the switch 2 becoming a pretty damn good hitter, I think Pena can come and pull off the switch….. If Moyer can pitch 7 innings of 80 mph fastballs, Pena coming in throwing low 90’s for an inning is a can do.
Jul 25th, 2008
Jay
Buchholz Surfer you forgot Jorge Sosa he can rack 2 LOL
Jul 25th, 2008
Jay
i just voted on the greatest pitcher list and ppl Maddux is a great pitcher in his own standard but he aint no Koufax or Martinez sorry to say…..
Jul 25th, 2008
Mike Bagnall
There seems to be a considerable difference between the career numbers and this season’s numbers for Pena’s hitting. What is the reason for that? Neither set of numbers is indicative of GOOD hitting, perhaps, but this season’s numbers are worse. Cannot bad hitters have slumps? Maybe he would snap out of it, given another 300 AB. The current Royals SS is the reverse image of Pena. He’s a guy whose minor league record indicates he can hit some, but whose ability to play the position at the ML level is suspect. So far, he hits a lot better than Pena and his defense has been surprisingly good. Pena’s initial defense was excellent and his hitting was surprisingly good. That’s why patience is considered the prime attribute of managers.
My recommendation regarding Pena, since you ask, is to forget this season’s record, which isn’t going to be very good anyway, and pitch him in tough spots, starting tonight. If he has two or three good outings, maybe the Royals can trade him to a contender before the deadline.
Jul 25th, 2008
Steve Buffum
Would Tony Pena Jr. really get claimed on waivers? Really? Am I missing something?
Jul 25th, 2008
Xtreme 97
Great points, throw him in there.
He can’t hit worth anything, why not have his low 90’s heat kick it up a notch.
Jul 25th, 2008
Craig
hey…he already has one tool all great pitchers share…..HE CAN’T HIT!
Jul 25th, 2008
Matt
No discussion that brings up guys who were great at both hitting and pitching can be complete without mentioning the great and sadly nearly forgotten Martin Dihigo. In the 1938 Mexican League he went 18-2 with a 0.90 ERA as a pitcher and had a league leading .387 average.
Sure, it might have been the Mexican League, but to do that at any level of professional baseball at any time is really cool. His overall numbers in the Mexican, Cuban, and Negro Leagues suggest that he was pretty damned talented. And he does have the distinction of being in the hall of fame in all three countries he played in.
Jul 25th, 2008
Mark
Re: Joe Blanton, I think some people read Moneyball too literally and assumed that Billy Beane was always correct. How could trading for Blanton be a bad idea unless Beane had incorrectly valued Blanton’s style of pitching over a strikeout guy like Bonderman, after all?
I’m 100% in favor of making Tony Pena Jr. a two-way utility player, as you’ve suggested, Joe. Woody Williams played both ways in college, FWIW.
Jul 26th, 2008
Richard Aronson
The Dodgers right now could use TPJ in this way if he were to become a good setup man. He’s be a contrasting reliever to most of the starters, but probably not Lowe. They are using Nomar at SS, then pulling him for Berroa with a late lead, and with Saito on the DL, Broxton is closing and they could probably use a setup man or even a 7th inning guy. On the other hand, Beimel, Park, and Kuo all have ERA under 2.5, so they seem to have the setup man thing handled for the time being.
As for the Royals, the real question is: how good is the Royals replacement player for TPJ? The Dodgers have Berroa, who is pretty bad with the bat, so I assume that whoever is now at AAA is even worse, but even so it appears that Berroa is a better fielder from the stats at BR. I think every manager in baseball would rather have his best SS at SS and not on the mound. If the Royals have an athletic 3B at AAA, then it makes more sense; bring him up, let him hit at SS, then do some kind of switch to eventually have TPJ at Pitcher during a late inning at bat and then move to SS.
As for TPJ, IIRC his dad had a gun behind the plate, so he comes by his arm genetically. And there are two things going on here. First, nobody is going to claim TPJ off wavers to try him as a pitcher who is already three years into his career (and arbitration and free agency). So send him down if it makes sense. But I just don’t see the Royals having a better option. I mean, I recall when Robin Yount went from being a high school classmate of mine to starting for the Brewers, because the Brewers didn’t have anybody better in their entire system to use. But even then he OPSed 79, not -1 like Pena, and it wasn’t until his fifth year that his OPS+ went above 100. If the Royals really have nobody better, or maybe have a prospect in the low minors they don’t want to ruin because, lets face it, the Royals are not competing for a pennant this year or next, then moving Pena won’t help.
So I’m thinking that you talk to Pena about winter ball and the Rookie Instructional League as a pitcher. He’s 27 years old, and if this is all he brings (both as a SS and as a hitter) then he’ll be a utility player if he’s lucky and more likely out of baseball before he’s 32. Hell, I don’t understand why Berroa isn’t the good field no hit shortstop out there, or why Berroa was sent down. The range factors look much better for Berroa, Berroa looks like a better pinch runner and base stealer, he at least has had some offense some years in his career, and I can only assume that Berroa slept with somebody’s wife to be replaced by Pena. Based on what the stats show, I’d rather have Berroa at age 30 than Pena at age 27. If Pena was only 23, then it’s a different matter.
Jul 28th, 2008
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