Gruds
Posted: July 23rd, 2008 | Filed under: Baseball | 53 Comments »
Well, we haven’t had one of these for a while … a long, winding, pointless, rambling blog post that is probably filled with dozens of mistakes and took up way, way too much of my day. We’ll correct the mistakes as we go along, but in the meantime … I’m willing the wager this is the only 3,400 word post you will see all day based on something to do with Mark Grudzielanek.
* * *
Mark Grudzielanek is hitting .652 against Kenny Rogers. I realize that this is in only 24 plate appearances, but having watched Grud face Rogers a few times this year I can tell you … Grud owns the Gambler. He knows when to hold ‘em AND he knows when to fold ‘em. He hits Rogers with power too — he has six doubles, a couple of home runs, a 1.174 slugging percentage.
And watching that made me think about something: Every pitcher — good ones, lousy ones, every one — has his guy, the one he just cannot get out. His Grud. Of course, Rogers has more than just Grud — A-Rod has five home runs in 19 at-bats against Rogers. Still, I would say that Grud is the guy Rogers will talk about when he gets old(er), the good-but-not-great hitter he just could get out.
So for fun, I looked up the Gruds for an interesting pitcher on every team in baseball (or on the team at some point this year). Interesting to me, anyway. I went with 15 plate appearances minimum for starters and 7 minimum for closers. Here you go:
Boston: Josh Beckett
His Grud: Ty Wigginton.
The numbers: .364/.391/.909 with three doubles and three homers in 23 PAs.
So, if you are the Yankees, and you can obviously afford to do whatever you want, wouldn’t it make sense to go out and get Wiggy? He can play a bunch of different positions, he has a little pop, and he owns the one guy you have to find a way to beat come September and October. I’m starting it now, New York: TRADE FOR WIGGY.
Tampa Bay: Scott Kazmir
His Grud: Dustin Pedroia
The numbers: .619/.667/.952 with 13 hits in 21 at-bats.
Pedroia just seems to me like the kind of hitter who, years from now, will be the common answer to the, “Who gave you the most trouble,” question. I can just see a whole bunch of 65-year old pitchers griping: “Yeah, I couldn’t get that little Pedroia SOB out.”
New York: Mike Mussina
His Grud: Mile Lowell
The numbers: .500/.522/1.000 with three homers in 23 PAs.
John Jaha hit .381/.435/.952 against Mussina. It’s always good to get John Jaha into the discussion.
Toronto: Roy Halladay
His Grud: Benny Agbayani
The numbers: .500/.533/1.071 with two doubles and two homers in 15 PAs.
I recall that Carlos Beltran always hit Halladay well … and for once I actually recall right. Beltran hit .407/.452/.556 against Doc in 31 plate appearances.
Baltimore: Daniel Cabrera
His Grud: Corey Koskie
The numbers: .429/.529/1.214 with three homers in 17 PAs.
I really couldn’t think of a good Orioles pitcher to include in this … but I will say that I was curious to see who was Steve Trachsel’s anti-Grud, the guy he owned. I would say it’s Jason Giambi — who has only hit .071 against Trachsel in 22 plate appearances. Trouble is that Trachsel mostly refused to pitch to Giambi, he walked Jason eight times, making Giambi’s on-base percentage a robust .409. Trachsel has held Jimmy Rollins to a .170 batting average in 57 plate appearances.
Chicago: Mark Buehrle
His Grud: Robb Quinlan
The numbers: .417/.440/.875 with three homers in 25 plate appearances.
Ryan Garko is hitting .563 against Buehrle but has not homered.
Minnesota: Joe Nathan
His Grud: Ben Broussard
The numbers: .571/.625/1.429 with two homers in eight PAs.
It isn’t many plate appearances but nobody has too many plate appearances against Nathan — the guy has not thrown 75 innings in a season since coming over the Twins in 2004.*
*Nathan really represents the new-style closer … Before 1989 there had never been a pitcher who pitched fewer than 75 innings, had a sub-2.00 ERA and saved 35 or more game. That year, 1989, Jeff Russell did the trick for Texas. The next year, Dennis Eckersley had his famous 0.61 ERA season with 48 saves — but he only pitched 73 1/3 innings. And it seems that’s when it became a trend to NEVER let your closer pitch except in save situations and, then, only for one inning.
And, honestly, this is such a new job, so different from what other pitchers do, I think that anyone who achieves those three things — 35+ saves, sub-2.00 ERA, fewer than 75 ip — should not be considered for a Cy Young Award but should get a Jeff Russell statue.
Most Russell seasons
Mariano Rivera: 4
Joe Nathan: 3
Jonathan Papelbon: 2
Detroit: Justin Verlander
His Grud: Jose Vidro
The numbers: .526/.550/.632 with 10 hits in 19 at-bats.
Verlander hasn’t been in the league long enough to have a Grud yet, but we’ve already talked about Kenny Rogers.
Kansas City: Zack Greinke
His Grud: Willie Harris
The numbers: .571/.600/.786 with three doubles in 15 PAs.
The guy who I think owns Greinke is Jim Thome, though the numbers (.294/.400/.647) are not as dramatic as I expected. I think about Thome first because I remember Greinke once threw Thome his slow-slow curveball and fooled him. Zack seemed to feel pretty good about it. He threw his slow-slow curve again, and Thome hit the ball 4,394,384 feet.
Cleveland: Cliff Lee
His Grud: Sean Casey
The numbers: .462/.533/.769 in 15 PAs.
Here’s a weird thing about Lee: He was dreadful in 2004, but he won 14 games thanks to getting 5.59 runs per game. That kind of support will help anybody. The next year he went 18-5 and finished fourth in the Cy Young voting. He pitched significantly better in ‘05, no doubt, but he was not 18-5 good — he got 6.37 runs per game. In 2006, he had about a league average ERA and he won 14 games again because — yep, the Indians just hit for him. He got 5.92 runs per game.
Then in 2007 he was dreadful, un-pitchable — a 6.29 ERA in 97 1/3 innings — but you know what? The Indians STILL hit for him. In fact, they hit better than ever. The Indians scored 6.64 runs per game for him.
Then comes this year, and Cliff Lee is suddenly (and for the first time) pitching like Sandy Koufax. He’s 13-2 with a 2.29 ERA, he has given up five home runs all year (FIVE) and his strikeout to walk is 110-20. Where does something like that come from? The guy was sent down just last year.
And the funny part is that, after all that hitting support for all those years, Lee has actually had a little hard luck this year. Well, not really hard luck; the Indians are still hitting pretty well for him (4.87 runs per game). But he did throw nine shutout innings against Toronto and he got a no-decision. He threw 7 1/3 innings of one run ball against the Dodgers and got a no-decision. He threw eight innings of one run ball at Chicago, which is one heck of a pitching performance, and got a no decision. His other no decision wasn’t bad either — 6 1/3 innings, two runs allowed.
So, with some of that crazy run support of years past, he could actually be 17-2 right now, and there might be talk on Baseball Tonight about someone actually having an outside shot at winning 30 games in a year.
California: John Lackey
His Grud: Willie Harris.
The numbers: .429/.467/.929 in 15 PAs.
Manny Ramirez is actually the guy who has owned Lackey (five homers in 25 at-bats) but I love that Willie Harris’ already name has come up twice in this little exercise.
Oakland: Huston Street
His Grud: Matt Stairs
The numbers: .500/.571/1.000 in 7 PAs.
Street has not really been in the game long enough to have Grud … but he’s the only guy the Athletics have left. I say this assuming that Billy hasn’t traded Street while I was writing this sentence.
Texas: Kevin Millwood
His Grud: Adam Dunn
The numbers: .471/.500/1.529 with six homers in 18 PAs.
That’s pretty predictable, actually. How many home runs do you think Adam Dunn would hit if he got 600 plate appearances against Kevin Millwood? If he stayed at this pace he would hit 200 homers. But in reality, I can’t see him hitting more than 140 or so.
Seattle: King Felix
His Grud: Joe Mauer
The numbers: .571/.647/.929 in 17 PAs.
King Felix is 22 years old. Mauer is now 25. So you figure that if they both stay in the American League, they could face each other, I don’t know, 100 times in their careers. I wonder if Felix figures Mauer out. One of those reasons to enjoy getting old.
Philadelphia: Jamie Moyer
His Grud: Mike Jacobs
The numbers: .429/.467/1.143 in 15 PAs with three homers in 14 at-bats.
Moyer, as you might imagine, has more than one Grud. He has pitched ball in the big leagues since 1986. It’s awe inspiring to call up a list of players who have crushed him and see this:
Carlos Pena has hit .500/.545/.950 against him.
J.T. Snow hit .571/.591/1.000 against him.
Dale Murphy hit .429/.579/.929 against him.
How about that — Gruds across three generations. Well, what can you say? This guy pitched to Dale Murphy. This guy pitched to Bo Jackson (a lot). This guy pitched to Darryl Strawberry, to Nolan Ryan, to Tony Pena Sr., to Gary Carter, to Ozzie Guillen. This guy pitched to Bob Horner. I don’t know what else to say … he pitched to Bob Horner. And he’s pitching now.
Florida: Mark Hendrickson
His Grud: Everybody. But especially Brandon Phillips.
The numbers: .500/.500/1.063 with three homers in 16 PAs.
Hendrickson doesn’t really fit what we’re doing here, but he’s really the only Florida pitcher I could find who has faced a reasonable number of batters.
New York Mets: Johan Santana
His Grud: Frank Thomas
The numbers: .444/.565/1.167 with four homers in 18 at-bats.
Thomas is a great player and, as such, not really a Grud, but those numbers as so massive that they’re impossible to overlook. Matt Diaz is hitting .533 against Johan if you would like someone a bit more obscure.
Atlanta: Tim Hudson
His Grud: Jim Thome
The numbers: .563/.682/1.375 with four homers in 16 at-bats.
Thome doesn’t fit either. But I didn’t get to use Thome earlier when talking about Zack Greinke, so I’ll use him now. Brian Daubach hit .500 against Hudson.
Washington: Odalis Perez
His Grud: Albert Pujols
The numbers: .609/.719/1.391 with five homers in 23 at-bats.
We are definitely getting away from the mission here — Pujols is also too great to be a Grud. But I use him here because whenever Pujols would come to the plate to face Perez in Kansas City, it was the responsibility of my Star partner (startner?) Bob Dutton to say: “How do you like this match-up?” And Bob always came through.
If you would prefer someone less obvious than Pujols, you can always go with the irrepressible Ty Wigginton, who is hitting .462 against Perez in his career. And that’s weird, isn’t it? It means Wigginton owns Odalis Perez, and he owns Josh Beckett — could there BE two more different pitchers on our planet?
Cubs: Carlos Zambrano
His Grud: Jason Bay
The numbers: .359/.468/.897 with 10 extra base hits in 47 PAs.
Here’s an interesting one: Carlos Beltran is hitting .077 against Zambrano. But in 19 plate appearances he has never struck out. I wonder if he feels like Jake Lamotta in Raging Bull. Remember: Jake was pummeled to near death by Sugar Ray Robinson but still shouted, “You never knocked me down! You never knocked me down!” after the end.
Milwaukee: Ben Sheets
His Grud: Chris Duncan
The numbers: .571/.647/1.357 with three homers in 14 at-bats.
Everybody here knows that I love statistics and I’m always trying to learn more about the game through the numbers. But I’m not afraid to admit that I’m as easily swayed by what I see as anyone. You can’t hide your lyin’ eyes. And so, no matter what numbers may say, Chris Duncan in my mind will probably always be the worst defensive outfielder in the history of baseball. It’s not fair, it’s based on only a handful of games I happened to see, but I cannot get those images out of my mind. Every single time I have seen him play the outfield, he has been brutal. Every time. It’s like, I once wrote, that I never saw Kevin McHale miss a free throw. Well, I never saw Chris Duncan look even halfway comfortable on a ball hit to the outfield. … Then again, if I was facing Ben Sheets I’d have him in my lineup.
St. Louis: Jason Isringhausen
His Grud: Ellis Burks
The numbers: .455/.600/1.364, had five hits against Isringhausen (in 11 at-bats) and all five were for extra bases.
OK, it’s game time again. Let me give you two batting lines … the second guy got about 200 more at-bats than the first.
.307/.358/.471 with 442 doubles, 20 triples, 222 homers, 1099 RBIs, 1007 runs, 127 OPS+ and six All-Star appearances.
.291/.363/.510 with 402 doubles, 63 triples, 352 homers, 1206 RBIs, 1253 runs, 126 OPS+ and two All-Star appearances.
OK? They both won Gold Gloves, though the first guy won a bunch, the second guy only won one. The first guy won an MVP, but the second guy stole 170 more bases and walked a lot more. I’d say taking everything into consideration, the first guy was a better player. But I’m not sure Don Mattingly and Ellis Burks should be that close.
Cincinnati: Bronson Arroyo
His Grud: Aubrey Huff.
The numbers: .522/.593/870 with 12 hits in 23 at-bats.
I’ve gone to Cincinnati quite a few times the last few months for those obvious reasons I won’t mention again, and I find it pretty amazing: Arroyo is really a star in town. I have seen dozens of Arroyo jerseys around. I hear people talking about him all the time. I mean, obviously, the guy’s got charisma, he’s got the music thing going, I guess he’s a good guy and all that. But after a nice first year, he’s 17-22 with a 4.74 ERA the last two years. Meanwhile Aaron Harang, this year aside, is a stud and I just don’t hear anything at all about him. I admit that this is a lot like my Chris Duncan observation — it’s just what I have seen. But I think Harang (this year notwithstanding) might be the most underrated pitcher in the NL. And Arroyo is the most famous pitcher who has never won 15 games since … Tommy Lasorda, I guess.*
*Or Fidel Castro.
Anyway, none of it matters because Edinson Volquez is so good he will leave both in the dust.*
*So, are we ready to face the question: Who won the Reds-Rangers trade? Volquez is 24 and let’s just assume for a moment that he turns out to be one of the best pitchers in baseball for the next five years. Josh Hamilton is 27, and let’s just assume that he’s going to lead the league in RBIs over the next five years and win at least one MVP award. Who wins?
Not to cop out but I“m already 2,500 words into this entry. That sounds like a full post somewhere down the road.
Houston: Roy Oswalt
His Grud: Corey Hart
The numbers: .462/.533/1.000 in 15 plate appearances.
Here’s the thing that happens when you watch Corey Hart: He gets in your soul. You can’t help falling in love with the guy. Sure, you can tell by the way he plays that he’s saying, ”I am by your side,“ and ”I will give you everything in my heart,“ but to me the big thing is that he will never surrender. Put that boy in the box, give him a little love, and man oh man, he will keep chippin’ away, he will just keep waiting for you to make a mistake. And he has no ego, this is no angry young man, this is not some overpaid athlete dancing with my mirror, no. He knows the world is fire. That’s why he wears his sunglasses at night.
Pittsburgh: Matt Morris
His Grud: Paul Lo Duca
The numbers: .571/.667/.643 in 19 plate appearances.
Morris won 22 games in 2001. And I have to say that when I saw that number again, I thought ”No, way, he didn’t win 22 games. Twenty maybe. But not 22. It has been so long since we have seen a 22-game winner, that the number doesn’t even look right. Sure, we all know that baseball is shifting away from the 20-game winner, but I think even more telling is that we don’t even THINK about a guy winning 22 games (hasn’t happened since 2005) and certainly we would never even consider that someone might win 25 games in a single season (hasn’t happened since Bob Welch won 27 in 1990).
Everyone here probably knows how I feel about pitchers wins as a statistic — I think it’s silly and close to pointless. Still, if you grew up as a baseball fan it is engrained in you. And we are in an era where 22 wins in a season looks like a misprint.
Arizona: Randy Johnson
His Grud: Bill Pecota
The numbers: .364/.563/1.000 with two homers in 16 plate appearances.
What a great baseball name. Pecota. … Chipper Jones, you may know, has banged six homers off the Big Unit.
Los Angeles: Derek Lowe
His Grud: Michael Tucker.
The numbers: .474/.474/.947 with two homers in 19 PAs.
Lowe has numerous Gruds in his past — Jose Cruz hit 10 extra base hits against Lowe — but we’ll go with our guy Tuck, who was one of the more, um, volatile and interesting characters I’ve ever dealt with.
Colorado: Mark Redman
His Grud: Jorge Cantu
The numbers: .600/.647/.867 in 17 PAs.
I picked Redman because I assumed that someone HAD to be be hitting .875 against the guy. I mean, I admire Redman for getting a lot of people out through the years with those pitches. Still, I figured there had to destroy him on a titanic and historic level. So I’m a bit disappointment. There are plenty of guys who have hit him — Carlos Beltran is slugging 1.176 against him — and Cantu’s numbers are obviously good. But I thought someone would be better.
San Francisco: Barry Zito
His Grud: Placido Polanco
The numbers: .692./.733/.769 in 15 plate appearances.
I have another question about Zito: Let’s say he keeps pitching like this. Let’s say this is just who he is — at last check, he was 5-12 with a 5.56 ERA. What happens? How long will the Giants keep pitching him in the big leagues? They still have, what, six years left on his contract, right? They can’t just release him — not with 100 million bucks due him. But on the other hand, they can’t keep pitching him with a 77 ERA+. So do they trade him and eat the salary? Do they put him in the pen and make him a LOOGY? Do they put him in the stands and have him sign autographs between innings? Do they have him perform with his guitar? I’m being semi-serious here: What the heck do they do with this guy when you make someone the highest paid pitcher in baseball history and it becomes indisputably clear that he CANNOT pitch?*
*I’m sorry, I just went to BarryZito.com and looked at his celebrity iTunes playlist. I’ve heard great things about Barry as a guy, and I’m sure he is a great guy. I also like to think of myself as a pretty sensitive soul. I have ABBA on my iPod. And I just did that Corey Hart thing. Sure. Still, when I saw Barry’s playlist (which includes Joni MItchell’s ”Both sides now“ and Gino Vanelli’s ”Black and Blue“) I could not help but think of one of the most underrated lines in movie history … a line spoken by Bill Murray in ”Groundhog Day.“ He was asking Andie McDowell to describe her perfect man.
Andie: First of all he’s too humble to know he’s perfect.
Murray: That’s me.
Andie: He’s intelligent, supportive, funny.
Murray: Me. Me. Me.
Andie: He’s romantic and courageous.
Murray: Me also.
Andie: He’s got a good body but he doesn’t look in the mirror every two minutes.
Murray: I have a great body, and sometimes I go months without looking.
Andie: He’s kind, sensitive and gentle … and he’s not afraid to cry in front of me.
Murray: This is a man we’re talking about here, right?
Yeah, that’s the line I thought about … I’m not saying it’s impossible for a pitcher to listen to Gino Vanelli before a game and then go and get a lot of people out. I’m just saying it’s highly unlikely.
San Diego: Greg Maddux
His Grud: Junior Spivey
The numbers: .556/.636/1.000
I like to think of Greg Maddux, the most strategically brilliant pitcher the game has ever known, in his later years, talking about his career with his grandchildren, and saying: ”I just never could figure out Junior Spivey.“
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Sorry to nitpick, I love your stuff and this was sort of interesting, but Matt Morris is retired, and Mark Redman has been DFA’d, so those guys are no longer “on” their teams (Pittsburgh and Colorado). Which give you an excuse to mess around with whatever database you used for this!
As a Braves fan, the one that always scared me was Mike Redmon vs. Tom Glavine. They faced each other a huge number of times (51 PAs) considering Redmon was largely a backup catcher. And Glavine could not get him out. .438 / .471 / .604
Brilliant!
Okay, I’ll say it. I miss Michael Tucker and Neifi a little bit. I think it’s for the same reasons I miss Andre Rison and big Chester. I need some bad guys on the team for when things aren’t going so well. I love having a team full of guys I don’t like. I like all the guys on these teams! It’s killing me.
Good point on 20-game winners. Another one for me is batting champions. Winning a batting title used to be a really big deal. But I couldn’t tell you any of the batting champs for the last three or four years, at least. And I think I could name every rookie of the year (or 90% of them anyway) without looking them up.
Maddux never struck out Tony Gwynn …. one of my favorite stats considering how often they faced each other.
Glendon Rusch started today for the Rockies … he probably has some Redman-like data.
“And so, no matter what numbers may say, Chris Duncan in my mind will probably always be the worst defensive outfielder in the history of baseball. It’s not fair, it’s based on only a handful of games I happened to see, but I cannot get those images out of my mind.”
My friend, I weep for you. For you must not have witnessed the most spectacularly awful defensive outfielder of our time, or any time: Kevin Reimer.
Kevin Reimer was a decent hitter for a few years – though his career came to a mysterious end after 1993, when he was just 29. Wait, it wasn’t mysterious at all: there wasn’t a team in baseball courageous enough to put his glove in the field again. The Commissioner undoubtedly applied gentle pressure on every team to make sure that they didn’t play Reimer for the good of the game, sort of like with Barry Bonds.
But for those three seasons, Reimer played the field like poetry in motion – beat poetry, with no rhyme or rhythm to it. He was the bizarro Baryshnikov. He was Greg Luzinski on Ambien. He was awesome.
Two quick stories about how bad he was:
1) I discovered Stratomatic when I went to college in 1991, and there were 5 defensive ratings that players were assigned, from 1 (Gold Glover) to 5. The only thing is, no player got a 5 – a 5 was only assigned to a player that was playing out of position. Frank Thomas would get no worse than a 4 at first base, but if you had to play a player at a position that was not on his card (if Thomas moved to shortstop) he got a 5.
Until one season, the rankings came out, and…Kevin Reimer got a 5. It had never happened before. Reimer had broken the game. From that point on, Stratomatic changed the rules to allow players of, um, unique defensive ability to earn 5s. But Reimer, to the best of my recollection, was the first.
2) On the morning of May 5th, 1992, I rolled out of bed a little after noon – hey, I was a college freshman – and remembered that the Orioles were playing a day game. (I was attending Johns Hopkins, and the Orioles were tied for first place after losing 97 games the year before.) So I turned on the radio, and the first thing I heard was, “it’s a deep flyball to left – and Reimer can’t get it! It tips off his glove! He’s chasing after it, and Horn’s got a chance for three!”
Sam Horn, of whom Bill James wrote he “runs like an anvil” when he was a rookie and he just got slower after that, never stole a base in his career. He was so slow on the bases that he scored nearly half his career runs on homers. He managed one triple in a career of over 1000 at-bats, and I dare say he could have had 10000 more at-bats and never tripled again.
But on this day, Horn went for three. And made it.
Like I said: Kevin Reimer was awesome.
Joe,
You really make my day better.
Joe – not to jump on you or anything, but I’m pretty sure Kerry Wood is more famous than Bronson Arroyo, and his career high in wins is 14.
Also, Jason Bay has owned Zambrano ever since they first faced each other. Must have been 2004, since that was the year Bay was part of San Diego’s trade for Brian Giles… anyway, if memory serves, Zambrano had allowed less than 10 homers in 200 innings on the year, and in a start against the Pirates down the stretch, Bay hit two off of him. Of course, at that point it was just adding insult to the mortal wound of a legendary collapse. But it was still annoying that some guy I’d never heard of had ruined the cool “200 innings and less than 10 homers” thing.
I think Glendon Rusch’s ‘Grud’ is Bronson Arroyo. I think he hit 2-3 HRs off him a few years ago.
Great stuff Joe! Not sure if you or anyone can find this information, but I’d be interested in a list of (Insert team name)-Killers. Good but not great players that beat up a certain team. Like no matter where he played, Luis Gonzalez was always a Cub-Killer.
Luis Gonzalez (.324/.389/.587) has indeed killed the Cubs. He’s been even better against the Royals, but in many fewer plate appearances (10 HR in 111 AB).
I would have said Mussina’s Grud was Frank Thomas. Not only did The Big Hurt hit 9 HRs off Mussina — the most he hit off any one pitcher — he killed Mussina when he was on the O’s. In 80 career AB vs. Moose, Thomas hit .375, with an OBP of .462 and SLG of .825 (Lowell’s numbers are only over 19 ABs).
Furthermore, in Mussina’s ML debut, he threw a 4-hitter over 7 2/3 against Charlie Hough but lost 1-0. In that game, the first hit he gave up was a double by Frank Thomas, and the first home run he gave up was to… yep, Frank Thomas.
And BTW, which batter did Mussina walk the most in his career? That darned Frank Thomas (13 times).
Great post Joe!!!! but now I’m gonna be up all night checking different pitchers
Had to check on newly aquired Rich Harden
David Ortiz
.556 / .714 / 1.333 14 PA
2 HRs in 9 ABs
MannyBManny also has a 1.520 OPS against him
Not surprisingly he’s got a 6.57 ERA against Boston
neither really count as a Grud so I guess Aubrey Huff’s
.462/.500/.846 will have to do
“Zack seemed to feel pretty good about it. He threw his slow-slow curve again, and Thome hit the ball 4,394,384 feet.”
I’m reminded of Ted Williams’ story about his last home run. Fisher blew a pitch by him and was so pleased with himself that Ted knew he would throw the same pitch again. Fisher did and Ted blasted it for #521.
Sosa was like that too. If you made him look bad on a certain pitch he would sit on that pitch every time he faced you until he destroyed it. I can still hear the echos of myself screaming “Nooo!” when a Braves’ pitcher tried to fool him a second time with a curve ball.
I have to say Joe, I didn’t cheat and I would have taken player 2 every day of the week.
And when I discovered that Ellis Burks was that much better than Don Mattingly, I smiled. A lot.
Just pulled Mark Hendrickson’s b-ref page after seeing his name mentioned – did you know he was drafted six times!?!?!? Every year from 92 to 97 – and he signed on the eve of the 98 draft or he would have been drafted 7 times apparently.
That has to be a record. . . .
Two thoughts:
1) I always thought Lonnie Smith was the worst defensive outfielder in history because he’s the only guy I regularly saw fall down and hurt himself on routine fly balls. But that’s just me.
2) When Jorge Cantu first became a regular with Tampa Bay and was half good, I regularly referred to him as “The Man With No Eyes” due the way he wears his batting helmet. (It was sort of a Cool Hand Luke homage, too, just without any real reason for it.) So anyway, Cantu is suddenly terrible for a couple of seasons and was quickly forgotten. When he resurfaced this year with Florida, all I saw was “Cantu” in the box scores, with no clue at all that it was the same guy. So my son is telling me a few weeks ago about a big game from this guy Cantu and I asked him who that was. He says, “It’s The Man With No Eyes!” I gotta say, it was pretty sweet to have my cheesy nickname for Jorge Cantu remembered. At least now I know that my kid is listening to me.
RE: Maddux & Spivey – Maddux has an inexplicably bad record against the DBacks. He is at least 4 games over .500 against every NL team except AZ & Atlanta (who he hasn’t faced nearly as often and is only 8-6) and has an ERA below 3.50 against everyone except Atlanta, AZ & Colorado (altitude – he has a 4.29 vs the Rocks). However, against AZ he is 2-11 with a 5.29 ERA.
Using your 15 PA minimum, the top 3 career OPS against Maddux are all DBacks – SPivey (a few PAs against Maddux while with Milwaukee), Conor Jackson & Chad Tracy. Number 5 on the list is SHawn Green (although he did most of that with the Dodgers), #18 on the list is ERic Byrnes who has done most of that damage with the DBacks and #40 is Luis Gonzalez who has 10 HRs and a 994 OPS in 126 PAs against Maddux.
In fact, when Maddux set the NL record for consecutive innings without a walk (73 IP I believe) it ended against the DBacks on Aug 12, 2001 with an intentional walk (of all things) to Steve Finley followed 2 batters later with an intentional walk to Damian Miller. OH, Junior Spivey had 5 hits in that game (4 off Maddux).
So Maddux had a whole team of Gruds’ basically. . . .
My all-time favorite was Mike Redmond, who was always inserted into the line-up when the Marlins would face Tom Glavine. Over 5 years and 12 games against Glavine, Redmond had managed to rack up a .516/.545/.774 line in 33 PA. Unfortunately, he fell into a bit of a Glavine slump starting in late 2002 and is now down to a more human .381/.409/.571 in 44 PA.
Another great one is José Guillen who is a lifetime 10/25 against Pedro Martinez. but with with 3 BB and 5 HBP for an impressive .400/.545/.640 in 33 PA. In 33 PA oveer his career against Pedro he’s reached base by BB/HBP 8 times. This total matches his last 244 PA in 2008.
Noel:
Jim Eisenreich was a well known Dodger-killer. Career line of .405/.468/.620 in 232 PAs. He even went 9 for 10 in stolen base attempts against the Dodgers.
And to pile on, when he was traded to the Dodgers in 1998, he put up a 39 OPS+ in 140 PAs. He killed them every way he could!
Also, I figured Carlos Silva would have a decent Grud. It turned out it was Juan Uribe who was 20/40! with 5 dingers, but then I saw a couple other lines and realized…man, Silva must have HATED facing the Indians back in the day. Check out these lines:
Grady Sizemore: .477/.558/.818/1.376 in 52 PA
Travis Hafner: .417 /.452 /.611/1.063 in 42 PA
Victor Martinez: .455/.514/1.000/1.514 in 37 PA
Ben Broussard: .324/.343/.765/1.108 in 35 PA
Even Casey Blake chipped in with an .802 OPS in 46 PA. At least he shut down Jhonny Peralta…
This post inspired a little investigation of my own. Last year, Jaime Moyer was lit up against the Royals, including TPJ’s first home run of the year. It turns out, that Tony Sr. hit one of Moyer as well. Homerun’s to TWO Pena’s. That sir, is amazing.
I wonder how real these lines are given the small sample size. In other words, how many of these guys truly could hit that particular pitcher, or was it just dumb luck?
Obviously there is no good answer to that question.
Mike S.’s being reminded of a story reminded me of a story…and while we’re on the subject of Gurds, Rob Neyer’s mythbusting and Ted Williams stories…
The following was published in 1996 in “Play Ball!â€, a 1996 magazine I own that somehow never got thrown away:
“Pitcher Pedro Ramos said that one of his greatest ambitions when he came to the majors in 1955 was to strike out the great Ted Williams. After five fruitless years he finally achieved his dream and saved the ball and asked Williams to autograph it for him. The next time Williams faced Ramos he slammed a tape-measure home run out of the park. As he trotted around the bases, Williams called to Ramos, “Get that one back and I’ll autograph it too.”
Looking up the head-to-head, Ramos only struck out Williams once and that was on August 16, 1960 in Washington, DC. Of course, the problem with the whole thing is that Williams was 0-2 with 2 BB that game. From the way I interpreted the story, it was in the subsequent plate appearance that Williams hit the HR off of Ramos. As it turns out, Williams would not face Ramos again for over a month until September 17th. He flied out in the first inning, singled in the 4th and homered in the 6th (#520). There’s no mention of the “tape-measure” nature of the HR or of the alleged remark, but I don’t think it’s difficult to imagine it Williams saying it.
But at least the first part of the story was confirmed by the Washington Post. In addition to the K, Ramos got the win and hit a tie-breaking HR over the head of Ted Williams in LF. From the August 17th, 1960 Washington Post report on the game:
“…Ramos finally is a 20-game winner…He registered the 20th victory of his career over the Red Sox yesterday…He’s lost 11 to Boston…Ramos has 65 victories for his career…The Cuban right-hander confided before the game it was his ambition to strike out Ted Williams…As amazing as it sounds, Ramos had never been able to strike out the great man…But Pete did it yesterday when he whiffed Ted on a 3-2 pitch with a man on second and two outs in the seventh…Ramos asked for the ball and undoubtedly will have it autographed by Williams and keep it as a souvenir…”
Of course, it’s not surprising that Williams could be offered as a Gurd for Ramos. Teddy Ballgame was .345/.500/.672 in 72 PA* with 5 HR…and of course 1 strike out.
*This is incomplete as it does not count Ramos’s rookie year in 1955 for which I wasn’t able to find head-to-head numbers.
An interesting postscript to this story that I never realized until I started looking into all of this was that after Pedro Ramos was cut by the Reds in 1969, he was picked up by the Los Angeles Dodgers in the spring of 1970. Apparently he was displeased with the chance he was getting with the Dodgers and made a personal appeal to then Washington Senators manager Ted Williams for a shot. Williams gave it to him and he earned a roster spot as a relief pitcher for a $21,000 contract. Unfortunately, Ramos wouldn’t last and was released by the team one day shy of his 35th birthday on April 27.
Watching Mark Redman and Glendon Rusch all these years always made me think that I never should have quit playing being a lefty.
I cannot remember seeing a pitcher that I thought had as mediocre (a gift) stuff as Mark Redman.
I remember reading Bob Uecker’s autobiography in high school and he claimed that whenever interviewers asked Sandy Koufax who were the toughest hitters for him to get out, he would reply “Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, and Bob Uecker.”
Excellent! It’s strange, I’ve felt exactly the same about Chris Duncan. Like you, I haven’t even seen him that much, but I still get the feeling that any fly ball hit in his direction could lead to an extra-base hit.
I find it funny how you’re so sabermetrically inclined in some posts, and so… the opposite… in others, like this one. What do you think Grud will hit against Kenny Rogers going forward? I’ll bet you it’s well under .400.
You think Doc has nightmares that look like this (??):
http://straightcashhomey.net/post/38755540/benny-agbayani-new-york-mets-poor-willie-if#disqus_thread
I’m sorry Joe, but I don’t think you can actually make the statement that Albert Pujols is anyone’s Grud. The whole point of that was to pick mediocre hitters right??? So shouldn’t that also count out Frank Thomas, Jim Thome, etc.? I really like the whole idea of this post, but you really can’t count these guys in your Grud category Joe. You know better than that.
How could the Astros trade Wigginton to the Yankees? Don’t you know that we are still in contention?
Your friend,
Ed Wade
I saw Billy Butler in left field. Very Chris Duncanesque. He started running in on a ball that bounced off the wall. It didn’t really seem to bother him much, though. I bet he was thinking, “isn’t time to hit, yet?”
I remember seeing a list of the ten top batting averages against Dwight Gooden around 1986. The players at the bottom of the top ten were only around .270, but Chili Davis owned Gooden.
I went to college with Rany Jazayerli?!?! Why was I not made aware of this?
More moving words re: Corey Hart were never written. He has stolen both of our harts.
This list is awesome. Pujols can’t be a Grud though. Too good.
I always felt like Ellis Burkes was the best player that never got respect and that I didn’t like for no reason at all.
Worst Defensive outfielder? Koren Robinson. I will never, ever forget the night he climbed the fence to try to save a homerun from going over the fence at the K and the ball landed on the field in front of the warning track. And that may not have been his worst play of the season.
@Darren Rasmussen: For the record, Uecker’s career line against Koufax: 41 PAs, .184/.244/.316, one homer, two doubles, three walks, eight strikeouts. Of course I’m sure Uecker was just being funny.
Koufax’s real Grud was probably Gene Oliver, who in 54 PAs put up a line of .392/.426/.647 for a 1.073 OPS. He also hit four home runs. Koufax has worse lines against guys with more PAs, but they’re pretty much all HOFers or at least a lot closer to that status than is Oliver.
Is Mile Lowell the long-distance-running brother of Mike Lowell?
I was going to smugly throw Trevor Hoffman into the Steve Russell category, only to discover that the guy ONCE had an ERA lower than 2.00. Dear Lord he’s overrated.
He’s going to go first ballot. Just like the guy who INVENTED the stupid “rule” that gets Trevor Hoffman into the Hall of Fame.
Death to the Save.
If they both stay at their current level, the Reds win the trade. Volquez will be more valuable than Hamilton. It’s a LOT harder to find a shutdown #1 ace with almost unhittable stuff (note : all-star game excluded) than it is to find a guy who can lead the league in RsBI while playing at the Launchpad in Arlington.
Josh Hamilton isn’t that much better this year than Milton Bradley, who coincidentally plays in the same launchpad. I think I’d take Volquez over Milton Bradley 1.1.
I love the Grud thing, in all its shapes and forms, but some of these sample sizes are… not very useful. If the pitcher gets the guy out twice in a row the next time they face each other, the OPS will fall by like 400, 500 points.
And ofcourse, if the guy hits two homers, suddenly he’ll have a 2.000 slugging.
Ugh… seeing Thomas as Santana’s Grud reminds me of Game 1 of the 2006 playoffs when The Big Hurt took Santana yard twice. That was a rough start to a rough series for the Twinks.
My favorite from my youth is the immortal Geno Petralli wearing out Roger Clemens in his prime to the tune of .364/.440/.545 in 50 PAs.
In more recent times, Frank Catalanotto has a Ruthian .500/.500/.818 in 22 ABs against Curt Schilling
> Just like the guy who INVENTED the stupid “rule†> that gets Trevor Hoffman into the Hall of Fame.
> Death to the Save.
Well you’ve got your wish. Jerome Holtzman, who invented the save rule, passed on a few days ago.
Love this topic…. I recall that Tom Hutton used to club Tom Seaver. Always got up in a tough situation, and it felt like he always doubled into the gap. Though, a lot of guys did that to the Mets when I was a kid.
I like the idea of team-killers too. You could fill a nice roster with guys who owned the Mets (Stargell, Chipper Jones would both be captains).
Damon,
It’s almost certainly all small sample size. But the problem isn’t just the small sample size, it’s the fact that the data is acquired after the fact. Pitchers face hundreds of different batters over their careers, so just by random variation alone, it’s guaranteed that some guy will have hit .500 against them over a small number of plate appearances. If you could predict who the Gruds would be BEFORE their plate appearances happened, that’d be quite impressive, but good luck with that.
I’m not trying to be negative, though… it’s a great article as always, Joe.
I love Ellis Burks, who probably could have been a Hall of Famer with better health. (Couldn’t the same be said of Mattingly?)
But don’t forget Burks played an awful lot of games at Coors Field, including his one truly monster season in 1996.
Career home: .304/.375/.542
Career away: .279/.352/.480
[...] Seriously, Joe Posnanski is the best. [...]
My favorite pitcher to do this with is Quiz. All of his Grudz are LH and mostly low ball hitters. Ben Oglivie is the one I remember, but I think that could just be because he hit a mammoth HR off Quiz in his first AB ever against him to win a ballgame at County Stadium in 1979. But the batters with 15 Plate Appearances against Quiz whose lifetime OPS is over 1.000 is a Who’s Who List of LH batters in the AL in the 1980s.
Whitaker: 32 PA, .429/.469/.643; Eddie Murray, 27 PA, .364/.444/.591 (1 HR); Lloyd Moseby, 26 PA .458/.500/.500; Kent Hrbek, 22 PA, ..632/.636/1.105 (2HR); Cecil Cooper, 21 PA, .500/.524/.800 (2 HR); Upshaw, 20 PA, .500/.500/.600; Oglive 18 PA, .400/.500/.800 (2HR); Pat Putnam, 17 PA, .500/.528/.938 (1HR);
OK, we have a serious Gruds in the making. I’m watching the DBacks/Giants and Conor Jackson has a double and a homer in the 1st 3 innings against Jonathan Sanchez to make his career line against Sanchez: 9-11,1 2B, 2 HR, 2 BB and 1 HBP for a 818/857/1455 line or a 2312 OPS. . . .
OK maybe Sanchez isn’t good enough to have a Gruds but that is serious ownership
Gotta get this one out of my system. Maybe someone won the Hamilton-Volquez trade, but I refues to say anyone lost it. Maybe Texas won more, but do you think either side would undo it if given the chance? Maybe it’s just a word choice thing. A winner implies a loser. Can we say “Who is even happier than the other guy that they made that trade?”
One more example: The Astros lost the Randy Wolf trade. I don’t know if the Pads won it or not, but the ‘Stros lost that even if the guy they traded swears off baseball and becomes a poet.
Duane Kuiper got drafted 6 times as well, and while Mark Hendrickson getting drafted 6 times is incredible, they were usually late round picks (from 13th to 32nd round). Look where Kuiper was getting drafted, from 1968 – 1972, in order.
12th Round
9th Round
1st Round
3rd Round
4th Round
1st Round
That is incredible. The scouts really loved him. I’d love to see Joe do an entry on the story behind that.
And I love him now…Kruk and Kuip, the best announcing tandem in the bigs, bar none!
As a Giants fan, the Grud I remember most was against my favorite player: Eric Karros OWNED (.429/.429/.762) Robb Nen. He could strike out anyone, but whenever Karros came up, I was always praying for a walk.
[...] A new stat named for a former Cardinal, a “Gruds”. [...]