Tidbits
Posted: July 17th, 2008 | Filed under: Baseball, Bruce, Media | 120 Comments »
I’m here in beautiful Cincinnati getting ready for the emotional “Cesar Geronimo going into the Reds Hall of Fame” weekend. It should be great … lots of Big Red Machiners coming back. Hey, did I mention I was writing a book on those guys?
One thing I know I mentioned is that Geronimo is not really the headliner this weekend … Cincinnati native Barry Larkin will also be inducted into the Reds Hall. And it reminds me that I’ve long meant to put together a list of great players who grew up in the city where they played their whole career. This is what I’ve come up with so far …
Cincinnati: Barry Larkin (Pete Rose does not technically fit because he played a few years in Philadelphia and had those few games in Montreal … but I think he was in CIncinnati long enough to be on the list in spirit).
Baltimore: Cal Ripken. Duh. Left this off the first time thanks to a brief brain fog. Born in Havre de Grace, Md., grew up in Aberdeen, Md., played for the Orioles his whole life, the conversation begins with him.
San Diego: Tony Gwynn. You know, I had been led to believe that Gwynn was born and raised in San Diego … but I’m looking now and apparently that’s not right. He was born in LA and grew up in Long Beach, which is a good 100 miles away. He did go to San Diego State, but that’s not quite what we’re talking about here.
Kansas City: Frank White. A lot of people don’t know that Frank was booed some in his early days … people in Kansas City had grown to like second baseman Cookie Rojas and were not ready for him to get replaced … especially because Frank REALLY couldn’t hit in his younger days.
New York: Lou Gehrig. Born in New York, grew up in New York, went to Columbia, played for the Yankees, died in Riverdale. In many ways he — more than DiMaggio or Ruth or Mantle or Reggie or Jeter or anyone — should be considered the ultimate Yankee.
Minnesota: As suggest by several reader, Kent Hrbek. Born in Minneapolis, drafted out of Kennedy High in Bloomington, crusher of 293 home runs, wrestling fan even before the state elected one governor.
Los Angeles: Garrett Anderson. Here’s one I had not really thought about but he sort of fits — I mean, he didn’t grow up in Anaheim (Granada Hills about 50 miles away) but it’s generally the same big city, and he has played his entire career for the California Angels, and he’s had a very nice career too. *
*Brian Downing might fit here but, as every good Downing fans knows, he was actually signed by the Chicago White Sox and spent the first few years of his career scuffling for that confused organization. And he ended his career in Texas. How about a career 122 OPS+ for Brian Downing — did you realize it was that high? I realize it was different time, he played a different position, and I’m not trying to knock anyone (I’m really not) but do you realize that Derek Jeter’s career OPS+ is 121?
Boston: Could have been Jeff Bagwell. Could have been. Carlton Fisk might count as a New Englander, I guess, but — and I have to say this surprised me a little — he played A LOT more games in Chicago than in Boston. He actually played 1,421 games with the Sox and 1,078 in Boston. He was a better overall player in Boston (.281/.356/.481) than in Chicago (.257/.329/.428) but he hit 214 of his 376 home runs with the White Sox.
Detroit: Willie Horton. Excellent suggestion from brilliant reader Kyle. Does not precisely fit the topic because after playing in Detroit for 14 years and a game (he was traded after playing ONE GAME in the ‘77 season) he played in quick succession for Texas, Cleveland (I recall that — didn’t go well), Oakland, Toronto and Seattle. But Detroit native who started for the Tigers and was, of course, instrumental on and off the field during the championship run in 1968.
Chicago: Did not really find a good candidate … unless you want to talk about Chicago native Charlie Comiskey.
Philadelphia: Jimmy Dykes played with the Philadelphia Athletics for 15 years, but I doubt he counts (plus he finished his career in Chicago too).
Pittsburgh (from brilliant reader Mikey): Here’s a good one. Honus Wagner. Born in Pittsburgh, played his whole career with the Pirates, died in Pittsburgh.
Anyway, those are the ones who come to mind … I’m probably missing some obvious ones. I’m sure you will let me know.
* * *
Back to Larkin … I have a buddy who grew up in Cincinnati just about the same time that Larkin was growing up here. My buddy cannot stand Larkin. Part of it is the way Larkin, at the end of his career, griped about the Reds mistreating him. My buddy hasn’t lived in Cincinnati in quite some time, but this really set off his Cincinnati sensibilities (Cincibilities?). The way he (and a lot of people in Cincinnati, I suspect) saw it was that the Reds had paid Larkin 27 million smackolas between 2001-2003, during which time Larkin played a total of 260 games, and hit .257/.328/.372. My buddy was not one of the more extreme ones who thought Larkin should give the money back (though he would have appreciated the effort*), but he certainly had no interest in hearing Larkin whine about the Reds at the end of that. I can see the point.
*OK, here’s an ethical question … and I’m asking it seriously. You’re Barry Zito. No, come back here. You’re Barry Zito And because you’re Barry Zito, we can assume two things:
1. You still have five and a half years left on your $126 million deal.
2. You suck. And while there’s always reason to hope that things will improve (you’re a lefty, you’re crafty, you could always find the Fountain of Moyer), realistically, there’s a pretty good chance that since you’re 30 and a couple of scouts say your stuff is two grades worse now hat it was even two years ago, well, realistically you may continue to suck.
So …here’s the question. Let’s say you continue to suck. Let’s say it becomes clear in the next year or so that you will never again be that pitcher. Would you renegotiate your deal and take less money?
Hey, I’m just asking. It goes without saying that you don’t have to do that — even more than that, nobody would even think about asking you to do it. But I’m asking the question because you know the score. You know how poorly you are pitching. You know what you were implicitly promising by signing that big deal … and you’re not living up to it. There has to be at least a little guilt hefting that gigantic check to the bank, no?
Of course, on the other hand, you also know that you earned that contract by how well you pitched earlier (and by the grace of GM Brian Sabean’s bout with contract malaria). You also know the player’s union might send Navy Seals to disarm and immobilize you should you even think about cutting your own throat. You also know that if you were to suddenly become Walter Johnson reincarnated, and you went 30-2 each of the next three years with an 0.48 ERA, that the club would feel no real need to renegotiate your contract to the plus.
So, what would you do?
Anyway, my buddy despises Larkin (he never really liked the way Larkin yawned and said “It doesn’t matter where I play, I just want to play ball,” whenever people asked him how he felt about playing ball in his hometown). And so shortly after i wrote on the blog that Larkin should be a slam dunk, first-ballot Hall of Famer, my friend said: “How in the world could someone who has never scored 100 runs in a season be a Hall of Famer?”
I said: “That’s not true. He scored 100 runs in a season.”
He said: “Look it up.”
So I did. And, yeah, I was right. Larkin scored 100 runs in a season twice. Still, I have to say … it was only twice. And Larkin’s numbers at first blush don’t exactly blow your mind — 2,300 hits, 200 homers, .295 batting average, three Gold Gloves, nice but probably now eye-popping.
Don’t get me wrong — my opinion has not changed one bit. In my book the guy’s a Hall of Famer for sure. He was a Gold Glove shortstop, he had a 116 OPS+, he won an MVP award and he was better the next year. He stole a lot of bases, won nine Silver Sluggers, won a Clemente and Gehrig award, and while I don’t think All Star Games are the end all … he did play in 12 of them. That’s pretty remarkable … only three shortstops have played in more (Cal Ripken, Ozzie Smith and Luis Aparicio — Ernie Banks played in more too but not as a shortstop).
I did some figuring and found that only 35 players have played in 12 All-Star Games or more. And of those 35, only three whose five-year waiting period has passed are not in the Hall of Fame. Go ahead and try to name those three.
Plus, Larkin is a guy whose advanced stats show that he was even better than that. His 271 runs created above average (I would prefer using base runs here but I don’t have access to those) is fifth all time among shortstops. And his 488 runs created above position — that is runs created vs. other shortstops of his time — actually ranks THIRD all time behind only Honus Wagner and Arky Vaughn. And his lifetime .291 EqA (is better than Cal Ripken’s (.283), way better than Ozzie Smith (.261), way, way, way better than Luis Aparicio (.244), better than Phil Rizzuto (.259) or Pee Wee Reese (.271) or even Ernie Banks (.286). It’s also better than Alan Trammell (.282), my pet Hall of Fame candidate.
His fielding stats are also excellent — he had 101 career defensive Win Shares.
So, from my vantage point he should be a sure thing. But I will say after hearing to my buddy rant and after looking up his stats, don’t know if it will work out that way. My buddy, fortunately, does not get to vote.
* * *
OK. You people owe me a lot of money. I mean a LOT of money. I ran across this link, and apparently I have been pretty dramatically undervaluing my blogging ability.
My blog is worth $269,850.12.
How much is your blog worth?
* * *
My buddy Pop Warner, my music guru who has made it is his life mission to save my pitiful non-Springsteen tastes by turning me on to The Hold Steady (awesome) and Wilco (I’m trying to like, but it’s just not happening) and Feist (1-2-3-4) and Sufjan Stevens (very cool) and so on … well, he found the coolest YouTube of Bruce singing “Dream Baby Dream” (which was mentioned by a couple of you brilliant readers):
* * *
I obviously have a much bigger post coming on this but since several of you keep asking … yes, I have chosen the official international soccer team for this blog. I feel a little bit like the president of the IOC about to announce where the 2016 Olympics will be … only not, really.
Anyway. the official soccer team is … Fulham FC. Let the celebrating begin in southwest London. But please, please, please, no overturning cars. Let’s celebrate responsibly.
* * *
All right, did you guess the three men who appeared in 12 of more All-Star Games but have not been elected to the Hall of Fame. Well, you know that one is Pete Rose — 17 All-Star Games. Rose actually made it tough for me to word the question … I would normally say, “Only three eligible players with 12 or more All Star Game appearances have not been voted into the Hall.” But its important to remember that Rose has never been eligible.
The second one was also pretty easy: Mark McGwire. He had 12 appearances … it will be interesting to follow his Hall of Fame story the next few years.
The third is a killer. At least it would have been for me, no way I would have gotten it. Believe it or not, Elston Howard played in 12 All-Star Games. Now, to be fair, it’s a trick question … Howard played in two All-Star Games in ‘61, ‘62 and ‘63 … those brilliant years when baseball thought one All-Star Game just wasn’t enough. Still, he played in 12 All-Star Games, he won two catcher Gold Gloves, he won an MVP award in ‘63 and he was every bit as good in ‘61 and ‘64. And, of course, he did not come up until he was 26 because he played in the Negro Leagues. Howard may not be a Hall of Famer, but he certainly had a great and unique career.
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Whitey Ford was another great Yankee who grew up in NY (Queens).
Uh, Joe? Cal Ripken. Kind of amazing that didn’t crop to your mind right away, but there you go.
Garret Anderson = overrated. People always reference him as if he’s some sort of well-kept secret, quietly putting together a borderline Hall-of-Fame career. He’s not. He’s barely above average as a hitter (OPS+ 104, EqA .272) despite playing at an outfield corner or DHing for most of his career. His career OBP is .326. He’s 12th on the active outs leader board behind players who have played more games than he has.
Us Mariner fans have to listen to our own broadcasters drool over Anderson every time we play the Angels. Enough is enough. Stop the madness.
Here’s a good one. Honus Wagner. Born in Pittsburgh, played his whole career with the Pirates, died in Pittsburgh.
Larkin’s baserunning and defense were absolutely phenomenal; his fielding above positional average and baserunning were worth about 13 points of OPS+ over his career. And, while not as bad as the early 1970’s, the late 1980’s and early 1990’s were, by historical standards, eras with pretty low shortstop replacement levels, which I think can be interpreted as saying that they were a tough time to play short.
So imagine you have an average fielding and baserunning shortstop with a decent length career, playing at a time when shortstop was very tough, and with a career OPS+ better than Jim Rice. That is equivalent to Barry Larkin. He is not only a Hall of Famer, he is a well above average Hall of Famer. When the Hall of Fame inevitably snubs him, it will be a mistake arguably even more egregious than Bert Blyleven and Tim Raines.
How about Kent Hrbek. Born in Minneapolis, went to Kennedy High (where he played high school baseball with my dad, auctually) in Bloomington, and played for the Twins his whole career, and retired to Minnesota.
Kent Hrbek was born, raised and played his whole career in Minneapolis.
Oh, by the way Joe, your blog is worth all that and more.
Tony Conigliaro came close for Boston (as every 50 year old in Boston reminds us) . . . except for a 70-some-odd game for CA in 71
I nominate Willie Horton–a Detroit native who played 14+ of his 18 seasons with the Tigers.
Fulham FC? Why? Because they’re the Kansas City Royals of English football? They barely survived a tough relegation fight, and barely have that “American” flavor anymore now that Carlos Bocanegra is playing in Ligue 1.
The Hold Steady are great and a ton of fun live. Also my blog is worl a fat 40K so I’ll be waiting for my check.
Yeah, if Garret Anderson qualifies, Hrbie definitely does. And Joe Mauer, someday (someday *soon*, if we’re measuring by the Garret Anderson standard).
Wrong sport, I know, but Roger Wehrli was born and raised in Missouri, attended Mizzou, and played his entire NFL career in Missouri for the St. Louis Cardinals before being enshrined in the college and pro football halls of fame. Never played a home game outside the Show Me.
And as long as we’re talking about The Hold Steady, I reviewed the new record for The Providence Phoenix:
http://thephoenix.com/Providence/Music/64525-HOLD-STEADY/
Mo Vaughn almost qualifies for Boston. He grew up in CT, but of course he ended up with the Angels and the Mets.
Rich Gedman was from Worcester but he played a year in St Louis.
Also Teddy Ballgame renegotiated his contract to take a paycut after 1959 because he felt he didn’t play well enough to earn it.
And in one of Ron Luciano’s books he mentions that an Orioles pitcher (I think it was Mike Flanagan) put in an arbitration claim asking for $450,000 and the Orioles put in a number of $500,000. I assume that was the easiest arbitration ever.
Honus played for Louisville for 3 years. (Yes, Louisville had a National League team in the 1890s).
“And as long as we’re talking about The Hold Steady, I reviewed the new record for The Providence Phoenix.”
A very well-written review indeed. Haven’t heard the album yet, but I plan to pick it up tomorrow.
Honus Wagner didn’t play his entire career in Pittsburgh – his first three season were spent in Louisville, then part of the National League.
For every overpaid worker, there’re 40+ who are underpaid. We underpaid workers of the world need someone to balance things out. Never give anything back.
Apropos of not much except that I put it on my Mets blog after tonight’s win against the Reds, I thought I’d share this with the fine folks here:
Bruce Springsteen & The E Street Band covering “Higher and Higher” [Boston, 3/25/77]
The Hold Steady are awesome live. I can’t get into the albums but the live show is just fabulous.
If I’m Zito, I take a *large* portion of my contract and give it to charities (including as many Little League orgs as possible). But not one cent goes back to the Giants. They deserve to lose money for continuing to give Sabean the reins of the organization. I think Peter Magowan is a fine gentleman and he should be lauded for privately financing PacBell Park, but he should have axed Sabean long ago.
I’m Barry Zito. And of course I’m not walking way.
Look at my ERA+ and my salary through my career:
Year ERA+ Salary
2000 172 rookie
2001 125 $ 240,000
2002 158 $ 295,000
2003 134 $ 1,000,000
2004 101 $ 3,000,000
2005 113 $ 5,600,000
2006 116 $ 7,900,000
2007 98 $10,000,000
2008 78
How underpaid was I early in my career? I won the Cy Young award when I made $295k, and the next year I made just $1 million. Pedro came in second, and he made $14 million, and $15.5 million the next year. His RAISE was more than my combined salaries.
Was I underpaid then? Of course I was. Thems the rules. Am I overpaid now? Of course I am. Thems the rules.
When MLB agrees to pay me properly for my better years, I’ll give some of the money from my lesser years. Tit for tat.
Until then, the money is mine. Mine mine mine!
-BZ
There is a blog that posts Hold Steady live shows. The Baltimore show from their current tour is pretty good: http://holdsteady.blogspot.com/2008/06/rams-head-live-june-27-2008.html
Larkin belongs in the Hall of Fame – the real one – but I think he’s going to be the NL version of Trammell. A long wait if it ever happens.
You could say Jim Thome for the White Sox.
I think he grew up a Cubs fan but is from somewhere in Illinois (Peoria).
I guess that he more of a Cleveland Indian then Chicago White Sock though.
Phil Cavaretta works for Chicago legend. Born in Chicago and played his entire career for either the Cubs or White Sox.
Yeah he’s not really remembered, but he is in the Cubs HOF (or at least he has a banner of his name hanging down in the main grandstand of Wrigley). Pretty good player as well, 4 All Star games and was on 2 Cubs pennant winning teams. 118 OPS+, .293/.372/.416 for his career. I think that’s more then enough for recognition (even if it’s not Hall of Fame numbers)
How about Jim Ganter for the Brewers? He was born in Fond du Lac, but it’s close enough for me.
For some reason thinking of shortstops I just looked at Ozzie Smith’s b-r page, and noticed that he had TWENTY EIGHT home runs in NINETEEN seasons!!!! TWENTY EIGHT CAREER HOME RUNS!? Wow, I never realized it was that low. That is almost beyond believable to me. His career high was six, in 1985 — one of only four seasons in which he had an OPS+ of over 100. And he also only had one season where he scored over 100 runs.
I love Ozzie Smith, but wow the disconnect between his offense and defense is even greater than I thought.
If you were looking for a Mets player (and I’m sure you were :p), Ed Kranepool would be the man. 18 glorious years for the team, all with a sparkling OPS+ of 97 to go with it. He, in effect, wraps up the entire franchise to date: a couple decent years, one good one, and a bunch of bunk.
and if I were Zito, I wouldn’t just keep the money, I’d start flaunting it all over town. Buy that decked out Caddy convertible, Barry, and wear some diamonds too. Afterall, it’s your party, pal.
I know its really, really, really too early to maybe even mention him, but Joe Mauer seems to be on the path to rank on this list right up near the top.
Bringing the last two posts together…
I went to a Reds game in the early 90’s when Larkin was on the D.L. He was in some minor fender-bender near the players’ parking entrance at Riverfront. So there he was on his car phone with someone explaining his predicament, with five or six kids gathered around him (myself included). He finished his call and signed autographs for everyone there, no complaints. So I don’t think he’s such a bad guy.
And definitely a Hall of Famer. As a Reds’ fan, I hated Ozzie Smith growing up because the fans always voted him into the all-star game ahead of Larkin.
Joe Mauer is a Minnesota kid
he kinda bounced around, but rickey henderson was from oakland, and i assume, will be wearing an a’s cap when he enters the hall of fame.
but then he was born in chicago, so, well, nevermind.
Fulham?
No!
How much research was involved?
You do know the club is owned by the odious and litigious Mohamed Al-Fayed? He of Harrods and Dodi fame.
Still, it could have been worse. It could have been Man U or Leeds.
Or Real Madrid.
By the way, I believe your Cruise/Costner poll is being manipulated.
It’s almost embarrassing to offer this up (almost?), but Ed Kranepool was a career Met and a native New Yorker.
Now here’s the embarrassing part. Kranepool, minor figure though he seems, is the Mets all-time leader in games, at-bats, doubles, and hits. And it ain’t even close in most of those categories.
Ouch.
For Chicago, there’s Phil Cavarretta – went from Lane Tech to Wrigley Field, as Jack Brickhouse would remind us.
Oh, and Honus Wagner played in Louisville his first three seasons. I know the Colonels eventually were absorbed by the Pirates, but technically…
You guys who mention that Honus played three seasons in Louisville are right of course. I did look that up before I posted but I discounted it as being pre-modern era. I could have been more precise.
Garret Anderson is one of those guys who was underrated for so long that everyone talked about how underrated he was so much that he eventually became ridiculously overrated. He has been a very good player for his hometown team for a long time.
Good call with Fulham. I am a Spurs guy, myself, but I can respect the choice. At least it isn’t Arsenal.
For St. Louis – Mike Shannon.
And don’t forget that Larkin probably deserved at least 1 more GG, but was passed up for Smith.
Fulham FC? I guess you didn’t need the $100.
Harry “The Golden Greek” Agganis. Born in Lynn, MA, went to Boston University (where he was a good enough QB to make the College Football Hall of Fame), played his entire (2 year) career with the Red Sox, and died in Cambridge at the tender age of 26 from a pulmonary embolism.
Rabbit Maranville didn’t play his entire career in Boston, but he was a Springfield kid who played 15 years with the Braves and made the Hall of Fame. Warrants mentioning.
Fred Tenney probably fits as well. He was a really solid turn of the centurt first baseman who played all but two of his 17 seasons for the Braves. Born in Georgetown, MA, went to Brown in Rhode Island, died in Boston.
Sandy Koufax was born in Brooklyn, played there at Lafayette High School where he was a teammate of NY Mets owner Fred Wilpon — I recall reading that Wilpon pitched and Koufax played first — and then of course played his first few years in Brooklyn before the team moved to L.A.
Larkin should have received the gold glove from 1990 to 1993. Smith got those on reputation.
Just a ‘yay’ for Sufjan. If you like him, you might like two more solo acts — Elliott Smith (start with Figure
and Jason Falkner (start with ‘Author Unknown’).
Ugh. That’s “Figure 8.”
Ok, someone is clearly rigging the votes in the Costner v. Cruise race. I can’t see how the lead never goes more than 2 or 3 votes in any one direction. I smell potential voter fraud. Are LBJ or Mayor Daley turning out 115% of the voters in each precinct?
LBJ had a bunch of Costner votes tossed into the river…
Brooklyn–Gil Hodges.
Gil is long gone, but you can still bowl at Gil Hodges Lanes and drive over the Gil Hodges Marine Park Bridge.
Cesar Geronimo. The only (-5) throwing arm I ever saw in Strat-o-Matic 1972-78. He was, of course, a “1″ in CF.
I love Wilco, Joe, but i’ll try not to let your luke-warm reception bother me… here’s a few other tips:
1. M. Ward – “Post War” Album. Fantastic.
2. Graham Lindsey – “Famous Anonymous Wilderness”. Growls like a young Dylan. Amazing sound for a guy in his early 20’s. Might be right up your alley as a fan of Bob and the Boss.
3. Wilco/Billy Bragg/Woody Guthrie “Mermaid Avenue” projects. I’d wager you might like these more than Wilco, depending on which albums you’ve tried.
Joe,
Sewing together two or your recent threads, you need to check out channels 43 and 47 on XM Radio. That’ll expose you to lots of new stuff. It’ll also boost your oncoming hipness.
POTUS08 is nice, but it’s got no beat and you can’t dance to it
I also noticed that Sirius has a 24hr Bruce channel including lots of live stuff.
.
Not a big Larkin fan here, I’ll admit it up front. His percentages are all very good, no problem with them. Has a very similar career to Alan Trammel who was an excellent player when he actually made it into the lineup.
There’s no question he was the best offensive shortstop in the NL over the span of his career but realistically if he had played in the AL for his last 9 seasons he would have just been the 5th best offensive shortstop in the league.
I think my biggest problem with him is that in his 19 year career he played 150 or more games just 4 times and only managed to average 493 plate appearances a season discounting his rookie year. Because of it, his counting stats aren’t terribly impressive.
Don’t believe me? Jeter is in his 14th season and is within 37 doubles, 19 triples, already has 2 more homers, 15 more RBI and only needs 151 more walks.
Don’t like that comparison? How about Miguel Tejada.. not by any stretch a Hall of Famer but they are within 3 points of each other in OPS+:(Tejada 113, Larkin 116) 12th season – within 83 doubles, already has 70 more homers, 117 more RBI. Won’t catch Larkin in triples or walks or steals of course and there’s the steroid stigma.
For comparison purposes, let’s look at some other notoriously fragile players who’s careers overlapped Larkin’s so you can get an idea of just how little he really played:
Paul Molitor – 4 times he played 150+ games before he became primarily a DH. He then played in 150+ games 4 more times. Averaged 572 plate appearances per season, rookie season was a full season so counted it.
George Brett – played in 150+ games 6 times in 21 year career. Averaged 579 plate appearances discounting rookie season.
Tony Gwynn – played in 150+ games 5 times. Averaged 527 plate appearances discounting rookie season..
Alan Trammel – played in 150+ games 3 times. Averaged 490 plate appearances discounting his rookie season.
If only Larkin and Trammel could have stayed healthy, I would absolutely have supported them, but they couldn’t and because of it, I question if they helped their teams enough over their career to be Hall of Famers.
For the Phillies it would have to be Del Ennis of Whiz Kids fame who was born in Philly and played nearly his entire career there.
Or Sherry Magee, who never made it to the postseason with the Phils, but was very good nonetheless.
However, since I am not 83 years old, I have no recollection or memories attached to either of these ballplayers. Thank you baseball-reference.
Yankee Hotel Foxtrot
Yankee Hotel Foxtrot
YANKEE HOTEL FOXTROT!!!!!!
(That is all…thank you)
Okay, Yankee Hotel Foxtrot is o.k., but I think the best Wilco is their scattershot double album “Being There”…..inconsistent but some real gems on that one.
Uncle Tupelo, Tweedy’s original band with Jay Farrar, is leagues above Wilco. the albums “Anodyne” and “March 16-20″ are absolute gold.
Isn’t Lance Berkman the native son of the Houston area?
Joe Nuxhall kinda qualifies for Cincinnati. From nearby Hamilton, played 14 seasons and announced 40 for the Reds, only spent 1 full season and 5 games of another elsewhere. Dave Parker and Junior Griffey also are Cincy guys who played several years for the Reds, although obviously both made their names elsewhere.
Oh, and Ron Oester qualifies for the Reds — born in Cincinnati and never played a game for another team in 13 years.
Want to second Tony B’s nomination of Mike Shannon for St. Louis.
He was a high school sports legend at CBC and actually briefly attended Mizzou where he was set to be the quarterback before signing with the Cardinals.
He played for the Cardinals for eight years including the 1964, 67 and 68 World Series teams. He hit the last Cardinals home run at Sportsman’s Park and the first Cardinal’s home run at the new Busch Stadium (now old Busch Stadium). A kidney disease forced him to retire in 1970.
And of course he’s been on Cardinals radio broadcasts since 1972.
I just tried to vote for Costner and my vote registered for Pat Buchanan. WTF??
Strongly second the recommendation of the Wilco/Bragg collaboration “Mermaid Avenue”
It’s better than anything either of them have done separately (and I am a longtime fan of both).
Fulham, huh. Meh. I was kind of hoping you might go for Aston Villa after I read a couple of weeks ago that instead of accepting money from a shirt sponsor, they’ve entered into a deal with a children’s hospice called Acorn to wear their name on their jerseys, and that they’ll contribute money to Acorn, not the other way around. Barcelona made the same sort of deal with Unicef a couple of years ago, and I think it’s great. I’m an Arsenal guy, but I’ll also be pulling for Aston Villa because of this. Plus their owner also owns the Cleveland Browns. I think you should reconsider.
I like fulham too.
i have to retire my Bocanegra jersey now that he’s gone. and McBride is gone too. and he’s in CANADA!
so go clint.
As a native Marylander, I must say, for the record, I believe Cal is a minor deity. It’s still weird to watch an O’s game and not see him playing.
And I must say, a Springsteen fan such as yourself should have gotten into the Hold Steady a long time ago. Just a great band with the same kind of narrative style and terrific live shows in which I lose like three pounds from sweating because I’m dancing so much. Their albums also have a tendancy to get better with repeated listenings. They really grow on you. I was kind of dimissive of the new album when I got it on iTunes, but now I think it’s their second best album behind Separation Sunday.
I nominate Jerry Dybzinski for Cleveland. The Dybber grew up in the city and played his college ball at Cleveland State. His best (relative term) years were playing SS for the Tribe. His comparables include a similar stud SS named Concepcion. Onix Concepcion.
Shelby, I do agree with you about “Being There.” It is a phenominal album and marked the sea change in the band’s sound, but I think you said it in your comment: “inconsistent but some real gems.” Yankee Hotel Foxtrot is nearly flawless; it is powerhouse from beginning to end.
If you’re not sold, check out the documentary, “I Am Trying to Break Your Heart,” which follows the band as they record, and (attempt to) release the album. It is amazingly eye-opening.
It’s my opinion that the members of Arcade Fire are now carriers of the Springsteen Torch. Their last album, “Neon Bible” is the most Springsteenesque album to come out in years.
Berkman was born in Waco and went to HS just outside of San Antonio, although he’s been in the Houston area (Rice, then the Astros) since then. I have no idea of where he was before his high-school years.
Joe, thanks for choosing Fulham. You’ll have a lot of fun getting to know the EPL and Fulham. I know when I became a fan five years ago, it also gave me a different and more open perspective on American sports.
If you get a chance, stop by http://www.fulhamusa.com and meet some fellow Fulham fans. (You’ll even see a thread on the message board with your name on it.) It’s a friendly, thoughtful bunch who will be happy to answer any questions you might have. Go Fulham.
ESPN is only worth $13,817,116.50. Honestly seems low.
You know, even if Zito wanted to give back some of that money (And why would he? Kyle is right–the Giants deserve to pay all that for their stupidity), the players’ union would throw a fit, as that would set a dangerous precedent for any future players who might have a crisis of conscience. Anything to avoid making a gesture most fans would, I believe, appreciate and respect.
Is Joe Mauer going to play his entire career in Minnesota?
Wilco is awesome, shoot so is Uncle Tupelo
As for Barry, I too came of age in Cincinnati, around Barry’s time too. He’s my all time favorite Red, he belongs more to me than the BRM (Moved there in the mid 70’s) and compared to the loyalty Pete gets from the locals Barry would be lucky to garner the same love that Bob Huggins received.
As for giving his salary back, I love that assumption, with Larkin though you can counter it with the fact that he offered up some of his cash if the team would go to natural turf during their last few years in Riverfront (Cinergy? Don’t know where or what that is.)
I can’t recall another player offering up their own money to help the team like that… well maybe Connie Mack and the PA league but that’s a horse of different color.
Dirty Al Gallagher. Didn’t have much of a career and he finished up with the Angels, I think, but any Giants fan from that era loved the guy.
How about Don Drysdale? He started in Brooklyn, but played most of his years in LA. Same team his whole career.
Jim Gantner and the Brewers. Gumby played his entire career for the Crew and grew up a few miles north.
Great pick on Fulham, Joe. It’s not the easy way out like rooting for one of the big boys, but real sports fans know that without the lows, the highs don’t feel as high.
Also Hal Newhouser is close in Detroit. 28 games in Cleveland at the end.
Elston Howard was a good one. But he probably ranks fourth or fifth among Yankee catchers all-time. He’s not the best catcher born in Missouri either … Yogi has him there too.
Another hometowner is Bill Freehan of the Tigers who spent his childhood in the Detroit area and went to Michigan. (His family was in St. Pete during his HS years).
Why should Zito ever consider taking less money? Is he supposed to feel bad about getting paid millions of dollars by billionaires?
Joe, I know this is comment 78, so nobody will read it, but let us know when you get tired of the Hold Steady. The first time I heard them, I was like, “Cool. Some guy rambling stream-of-consciousness lyrics over guitar music.” And then I heard another song, and another, and it was just the same thing. Try some Bright Eyes. I would make you a mix tape, but my girlfriend would be jealous.
Okay, a few points this time…
Very early in the career of Mr. Brian McCann, but he is a local GA kid who could conceivably make that list. So could Francouer, although his career may never be long enough to matter if he can’t figure out the strike zone.
Interesting that you bring up the topic of Zito giving back the money. On Atlanta radio yesterday the hosts were blasting Hampton and saying he should give back the money (or give it to charity) he has made these last few years. I am firmly against this in Hampton’s case, as well as Zitos. One, it’s really easy to say that’s what you would or should do if you were in their shoes, but I bet most people would hold on to all the money if they really found themselves in a similar situation. Two, in Hampton’s case*, insurance has covered a large portion of his salary, so the Braves haven’t really paid as much as most people think. I agree wholeheartedly with the poster above who stated that Zito was drastically underpaid to begin his career, also. In most cases, it evens out, due to the nature of the system in MLB.
*I also have a hard time with people jumping on Hampton because he’s not “pitching through pain”. I would think, after battling through arm injuries the last couple of years, that he may just be gun shy. Who am I to judge if that’s the case?
Finally, Joe, if you like the Hold Steady (and they are incredible), I beg you to listen to the CD “Boxer” by The National. Different style of music, but incredible. Those two bands have become my favorites of the last year or so….
He doesn’t fit all of the requirements, but every Cleveland baseball fan knows Elmer Flick. Born in Bedford Ohio – just a bicycle ride from the Cleveland border – he became a member of the Cleveland Naps, the predecessor of the Indians where he ended his career. Elmer eventually was elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame by the veterans committee in 1963. Elmer died in Bedford in 1971 at the age of 94.
Can you kindly remove the extremely offensive words “Kent” and “Hrbek” from your blog? From the first moment I clicked this URL, the stench of cheater was so overpowering I knew there was something about that dirty bastard P.O.S. written here.
Speaking as a Dayton native and lifelong Reds fan (Larkin’s career took me from junior high to “adulthood”), you and your buddy are both exactly right:
Larkin was a selfish, manipulative, clubhouse politician, who abused the fans’ loyalty terribly in the last years of his career . . . and he’s also a should-be first ballot HOFer.
One particularly annoying stunt:
http://tinyurl.com/6qqdbx
The National are Cincinnati guys, coincidentally. Now living in Brooklyn.
I have no idea about who grew up where and played there.
As for Barry Zito, I can assure you that “the Zen Man” feels no remorse whatsoever for cashing that check. None. He’s too “Zen” about it.
He’ll go cash that check, grab a few mojitos, and lie on a surfboard until the sun goes down. What, working extra bullpen sessions to try to get your “stuff” back? Huh? The man got paid!
Am I the only one who thinks that of Barry Zito? That the reason he sucks SO badly is because he just doesn’t care? He seems like exactly the kind of guy who shut it down once he got paid.
I’m sorry we owe you a lot of money Joe. How about we all write you an IOU? Or promise to buy your next book?
I wouldn’t put too much trust in that “how much is your blog worth” thingy, btw.
This blog is worth zero dollars
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/main
Now, I don’t hold most of those espn bloggers in high respect, but you gotta figure that Rob Neyer and Buster Olney and Gammo would be worth a few dollars, right?
“Garret Anderson = overrated. People always reference him as if he’s some sort of well-kept secret, quietly putting together a borderline Hall-of-Fame career. He’s not”
I can’t agree with you more, but how much do you want to bet that the BBWAA will give him enough votes to keep him on the ballot for fifteen years? Because a lot of them believe that he’s this awesomely great player who’s been robbed of AT LEAST four MVPs.
I only know this because I am from Kentucky but Honus Wagner did not play his whole career with the Pirates. The first 2 or 3 years were played in Kentucky with the Louisville Colonels. The Colonels were in the National League at the time. I have read differing stories on what happened to that franchise but most recounts state the team was cash strapped and sold several of their best players to the Pirates.
“Try some Bright Eyes, I would make you a mix tape, but my girlfriend would be jealous”
This tells you everything you need to know about Bright Eyes!
Who’s the most overhyped pin-up doll from Nebraska, Conor Oberst or Andy Roddick? Now that’s a horse race!
The National are also supposedly fairly big baseball fans. Mets fans I think.
There is nothing stream of conscious about the Hold Steady’s lyrics. They are actually pretty interwoven throughout all of their albums. It’s like one giant song in an odd way.
And they are huge baseball fans. The only band shirt I own is of the Hold Steady, and it is a joke based on the old Twins logo of the players reaching across to clink beers instead of shake hands. No one gets it.
Fulham,the more you get to know them the more you love them. steeped in tradition and history. Not the most modern, but best little stadium there is. When can we expect to see you at Craven Cottage.
COYW’s
GO FULHAM!!!
Did someone seriously just compare The Arcade Fire to Bruce Springsteen??? What???
This is not baseball, but hopefully someday we will all be talking about how great it is that LeBron played his whole career in Cleveland (and won 5 titles).
What was the final tally in the Cruise vs Costner showdown?!?! Costner by a nose (I hope)? A history of the results of past poll questions would be invaluable.
These have probably been mentioned, but to be honest I didn’t feel like running through 95+ posts to check …
1. Chicago Phil Cavaretta didn’t play with one team, but he only appeared with the Cubs and White Sox in his long career.
2. Not saying Barry Larkin is a Hall of Famer (he’s a certain Reds Hall of Famer), but he had 78 runs in 110 games in ‘94, the year of the strike. I’d be fairly certain he could score 22 runs in 40-50 games, if they played them.
The best call you ever made………………..
…………………………………………………………FULHAM F.C.!!!!!!!!!!!
Don’t be put down by ‘ne’er do wells’ and their claims to fame & glory… Fulham is for life… welcome to the family, come and see us here…
>> http://www.voy.com/13865/ <> http://www.fulhamusa.com/ <<
WE ARE FULHAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fulham…. excellent choice! Welcome to the family. COME ON YOU WHITES!!!!
Fantastic Choice – Fulham FCO – you won’t regret it. Friendly, decent club, playing football the way it’s meant to be. OK, don’t expect lots of silverware but do expect some surprises. Hope you can come and see us at Craven Cottage – then you’ll really see what we mean.
Great choice on Fulham, get yourself over to London and come see a game, we are the friendliest bunch in the city, I hope you can drink as well!!!
oh god, this feels like the shrill chill wash of college pretension (i.e. only “keep the car running” is very brucian on neon bible, etc) and the bar trivia night of caviling about bagwell’s acceptability being from southern CT, etc
oh god, this feels like the shrill chill wash of college pretension (i.e. only “keep the car running” is very brucian on neon bible, etc) and the bar trivia night of caviling about bagwell’s acceptability being from southern CT, etc
I’m tossing Marah into the ring band-wise. To quote allmusic.com:
If You Didn’t Laugh You’d Cry is the kind of record Dylan might make in 2005 if he were still making records as good as Highway 61 Revisited, or the kind of record Springsteen might make if he were updating Greetings from Asbury Park, N.J..
Joe,
here are some other musical suggesstions you’re sure to find much more than enervating in you superannuity: “Bruce” (a cover band outta Helmsley, Illinois), “The Bossers Around” (a highly praised indie band from NYC), and Quenchers, not a band but a bar in Lubbock with an owner who claims he’s a bigger Springsteen fan (w/ concomittant offerings smattered thru-out any given week and week end) than you (I had the privilege of asking). Not to mention “The Mississippi River” – a cover band of Hold Steady w/ a front man w/ a stinging likeness to the guy from Knocked Up/Superbad and an almost faulty fealty to the vocal range of HS’s lead man and an uncannily explosive performance energy which is most often (heretically) likened to Bruce’s.
jk, but a question about OPS+ and the new poll about best living player…narrow it to best active player, I know Pujols is on there. Puj’s OPS is much better. A Rod hits more homers per AB (and PA i think). (Ryan Howard does more so than A Rod to highlight the extreme from Puj). My question to everyone is: who would you rather have bat, be up at the plate? Let’s say you are a manager these last five years, the next three years, and your job of winning is on the line. Who, after the gut-check and the numbers are you taking? Puj hitting 3rd or A rod 4th? I know this is a sabermetric question, but germane given the new poll.
Welcome to Fulham! Ok I haven’t toppled over a car in the mayhem on hearing the news but I have spilt my coffee… oops, I should say tea to give added authenticity to these here foreign parts.
If and whenever a visit is on the cards and although I’m sure you have seen many a stadia, Craven Cottage wont disappoint you even though the result might. Oh and get ready to love the wonder that is Jimmy Bullard.
Great choice with Fulham mate ! fantastic old stadium which is like no other and fans which are the salt of the earth , Enjoy the ride with FFC
As mentioned above, Phil Cavaretta would be a good choice for Chicago. Another option would be HOF catcher Roy Schalk, although he’s not from Chicago but downstate Illinois. Surprising lack of hometown players for these clubs, Ohio kept stealing the good ones like Boudreau and Big Klu.
My fake football club, just because of their mascot – H’Angus The Monkey – Hartlepool United. Not to mention that Hartlepool gave us Andy Capp and his delicious Hot Fries.
Just wanted to chime in that E Street Radio on Sirius, which was originally a temporary station around the time of the “Magic” release, is now permanent, and is a treasure. Was listening on the way home from work the other day and there was some show on from the early 80’s, don’t recall where. Max starts in with a Bo Diddley beat, Bruce breaks into 2 or 3 verses of “Not Fade Away”, music builds, and eventually turns into a rollicking version of “She’s the One”. Just spectacular.
On a separate note, I was reminded again the other night of why you need to see an artist live to really understand if they’re any good. Garth Brooks was doing a private benefit concert the other night here in Vegas, and there were extra tickets at work at the last minute from no-shows, and these were not for sale to the public. My wife is a big fan, so I took her.
Now let me explain that I am not a country fan. I have really broad musical tastes, ranging from Rock to Jazz to classical. Reggae, soul, blues, folk and more are all represented in my vinyl/CD collection which is well over 1000 albums. I own no country. About the most country thing I own is some Lyle Lovett. I went to the concert because the wife wanted to go. And, I have to admit, he was GOOD. Engaging, funny, brought his wife (Trisha Yearwood) out who proceeded to totally make fun of him, and connected really well with a Vegas crowd, which is always difficult (one reason Bruce rarely plays here — he hates having all the VIPs in the front), I really enjoyed it. I still don’t think I’ll buy or listen to his studio music, but live, if I had a chance to see him again (not likely with his 2 shows a year these days), I’d go.
Picking Fulham was an excellent decision. One of only a few genuine football clubs left in the Premier League. It’s great that our club can still attract some attention in the States despite losing the majority of its American contingent of players.
Having travelled to Colombus, Ohio to see Fulham a few years ago for the MLS All-Star game, it is only right that you repay the favour by coming to SW6 for a game at the Cottage. Keep us updated and it would be well worth contacting the FulhamUSA crowd as they have always appeared to be a really genuine bunch of people.
COYW!
Somehow, either Sandy Koufax (grew up in Brooklyn, signed with the Dodgers, and then they moved to LA) or Don Drysdale (grew up in LA, signed with Brooklyn, then moved to LA) deserves consideration for the Dodgers. Because if a team moves, how can its players qualify?
Garrett Anderson may wind up the Angels’ career leader in almost every important counting stat; he already has a big lead in RBI, which unreasonably draws HOF votes like manure draws flies. Which just goes to show that the Angels’ farm system has yet to turn out a HOF quality hitter, or for that matter a pitcher I can think of either. The Dodgers have turned out only one HOF caliber hitter since they moved from Brooklyn: Mike Piazza. Which really goes to show that ballpark effects are much greater than you would think, and maybe Jose’ Cruz is the most underrated player of the recent past. But even if Anderson played in any other ballpark except maybe Coors pre-humidor, I doubt he’d have improved enough to get any real HOF credibility. Career high OPS+ only 131, only hit 30+ homers in a season once, while always playing outfield or DH.
Tim Salmon, on the other hand, had a lot of seasons with 30+ homers, career high OPS+ of 165, but Anderson got more press because he had Salmon on base to drive in so often. In fact, depending on how you count defense, you could argue Salmon got robbed for MVP the year he OPS+ed 165. He batted .330, 111 R, 105 RBI, and unlike the hitters who finished ahead of him in the voting that year, he played good defense with a very strong arm at a mildly important defensive position (right field) instead of being a DH, 1B, or bad left fielder. And Salmon was born in Long Beach, less than 30 miles away from Anaheim Stadium. So I guess Salmon should get the pick as all time Angel, both from proximity and from a better career. Of course, Anderson *looks* better if you don’t want to count Salmon’s almost 600 more walks. But career OPS+ of 128 is an awful lot better than Anderson’s 105.
Jim Gantner grew up just north of Milwaukee, played at UW-Oshkosh and played his whole career for the Brewers.
Not surprised a Springsteen fan likes the Hold Steady. First time I heard them, a few weeks ago, I said “this sounds like the singer from Thee Hydrogen Terrors fronting the E Street Band.”
Good choice of Fulham Joe (and I say that as a Man Utd fan). They are a good amtch to the Royals. Their manager Roy Hodgson has managed abroad most of his career and not regarded highly enough in this country (England), Hillman has obviously been in Japan. Both are small market teams with small budgets. Both teams haven’t faired well of late (unless you count Fulhams two promotions 5-6 years ago).
My favourite similarity though? The royals sign Gil Meche to an extremely large contract for a mediocre pitcher (he over-preformed alst year) and Fulham have just spent £6m (about $12m) for Bobby Zamora who struggles to class as an average centre forward in the Premiership (although he did score and get an assist on his debut in an impressive 3-1 victory over Celtic in a friendly, maybe things are looking up).
If I’m not mistaken Clint Dempsey and Eddie Johnson play for Fulham so they still have a few Americans
On a side note, footballers who have played for only one team and lived there also include:
Paul Scholes – Man Utd
Gary Neville – Man Utd
Ryan Giggs – Man Utd (Is welsh but has lived in Manchester most of his life and even played for England schoolboys I think)
Matt Le Tisier – Southampton (Is from Jersey (A channel Island) but I think Southampton are as close a team as you’ll get)
Bobby Charlton – Man Utd (the greatest english player ever)
Dal Maxvill, born in Granite City, IL (right across the river from St. Louis), went to Washington University in St. Louis, signed with the Cardinals and played on all their pennant winners in the 60s (did play some for a couple other teams in the 70s), then was the Cards GM from 1984 to 1994.
I don’t know where to post this; I chose here because this post had Joe’s HOF trivia question, and I apologize if this has been asked before…but here comes the best bar-arguing-baseball-trivia-question-of-all-time:
There have been back to back MVP winners at every position on the diamond (including pitcher). There have been 4 outfielders and 2 firstbase men (and just 1 at every other position). Name the players.
Joe, Dominik Hasek refused his salary while injured:
http://www.sportsline.com/nhl/story/7168235
Pavol Demitra had a bonus clause in his contract, and he needed just one more goal to trigger a 500,000$ bonus. He skated toward an empty net, and decided to pass the puck to his teammate instead. (Teammate missed!) His GM was rooting for him anyway, since they bought an insurance policy on the bonus.
Caryn: thanks so much for posting the site where they have Hold Steady live show downloads. I am obsessed with them….they are the modern Boss (though modern boss with Magic was pretty damn good). Joe: you gotta give them a good deep listen (and Wilco, too….check out Sky Blue Sky…excellent, along for Yankee Hotel Foxtrot, their masterpiece…and Being There, and Summer Teeth…Ghost is Born is very hit-or-miss).
This live recording is perfect prpe for me seeing them in 3 weeks at the historic 40 Wat Club in Athens, GA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/40_Watt_Club).
As someone who watched closely their entore careers, Barry Larkin doesn’t FEEL like a HOF-er if Alana Trammell isn’t…but i”m open to stats and arguments designed to change my opinion (as if I have a vote).
Thanks, again, Caryn.
Welcome to the Fulham family, brother Joe.
You’ve made a fine choice in Fulham, my friend! This team is not for the weak of heart, but they do have the best fans and the biggest heart! I made the pilgrimage to Craven Cottage last year, and even though we were stomped by Sunderland (at the time also close to relegation), I still walked away in awe of the atmosphere, the crowd and the experience of being there…two rows from the pitch! This looks to be a good year for The Whites…hope you enjoy the ride!
COYW!
Terri
I know he did not have the hall of fame career as some of the other candidates on your list, but current Cardinal broadcaster Mike Shannon was born in St. Louis, played college ball at the University of Missouri, and played his entire career with the Cardinals.