B-Log: The Banny Express
Posted: July 3rd, 2008 | Filed under: Baseball | 49 Comments »
Start No. 17: Vs. St. Louis Cardinals
Innings: 4 2/3
Hits: 9
Earned runs allowed: 7.
Strikeouts: 1
Walks: 4
Homers: 1
Extra base hits: 4.
Decision: Loss (7-7)
Number of pitches: 102
Number of strikes: 51 (ugh)
BABIP: .450 (9 for 20)
Season BABIP: .294
The less said about this outing, the better … Brian Bannister just never did get the feel. Banny has this theory that for every 10 starts — he has two games where everything is working, two games where nothing at all is working, and the way for him to be successful pitcher is to make the most of those other six starts. Well, this was clearly one of the two bad games.
Strange thing is while watching Banny pitch, I kept thinking about Nolan Ryan. Maybe it’s because the talk here at Banny Log is all about overcoming your flaws, making the most of your talents, beating odds and overcoming statistical trends, getting Major League hitters out with an 88 mph fastball that cuts and few walks and fielding the position and doing whatever other little things that you can to survive in the show.
And, of course, Nolan Ryan was precisely the opposite of that. That’s why i was thinking about him. I believe it was Bill James who pointed this out — there has never in the history of baseball been a pitcher like Nolan Ryan. He is, I believe, the single most unique figure ever (unless you’re counting Eddie Gaedel or Pete Gray or Jim Abbott or this guy). Babe Ruth was unique because he was so good and because he hit home runs when nobody else really did. But in time everyone started hitting home runs. Bob Dylan was unique because of the literary quality of his songs and the piercing honesty of his voice. But in time, there were a lot of people doing Dylan. And so on.
Nobody ever pitched quite like Nolan Ryan before he came along. And nobody ever pitched quite like him afterward either.
First, there’s the good: Nolan Ryan struck out 5,714 batters in his career — which is 1,000 more than Randy Johnson and Roger Clemens, second and third on the list. It is more than Bob Gibson and Christy Mathewson put together (or, if you prefer, Walter Johnson plus Grover Cleveland Alexander). Wow, that number is just staggering — you would have to strike out 300 batters for NINETEEN CONSECUTIVE SEASONS to get 5,714 strikeouts.
Or to put it another way — like that 19 consecutive seasons thing isn’t amazing enough — Jake Peavy, who is only 27 and led all of baseball in strikeouts last year would need to keep that pace up every year until he was 47 years old to catch Ryan.
Then there are the hits allowed — Ryan, of course, threw seven no-hitters, but he also allowed 6.55 hits per nine innings, which is by far the lowest total in baseball history. It’s .25 hits per nine better than Koufax, who is in second place, and that is a gulf. The world hit .204 against Ryan, their BABIP was .269. I don’t think there’s really much doubt about this, Nolan Ryan was the most unhittable pitcher who ever played the game.
And finally, of course, there’s the longevity, the durability, it’s beyond remarkable. This man who I believe still owns the Guiness Book Record for fastest pitch in a game, who threw 300 innings twice (and 299 once), this man led the league in strikeouts per nine innings when he was 45 years old. That’s preposterous. He won 324 games in his career — 71 of them after he turned 40. He was a man with a golden arm and a rancher’s work ethic and Texas fierceness that made him want to throw baseballs harder than they had ever been thrown. Forever. The game has had other overpowering pitching personalities, of course — Feller in his younger days, Herb Score before he got hit in the eye, Big Unit when he first started, Rob Dibble and Goose coming out of the pen — but they were all Ringo to his Paul, all Bohemians to his Edie Brickell, all Barneys to his Andy. He was the James Brown of pitching, the king of them all, y’all.
OK, but of course you noticed that I labeled that section, “The good,” which means “The bad” section has to be coming up. And it is. Because, I would argue that just as Nolan Ryan was the most unhittable pitcher who ever lived, he was also the most infuriating, the pitcher who did the little things worse than anybody else. It isn’t that he did just did them worse — he apparently did not care about them. I’ve tried to make it clear how worthless and misleading I believe pitcher won-loss records can be, but let’s not kid anybody: Nolan Ryan lost 292 games in his career, which is by quite a lot the most losses for any pitcher since the start of the 20th Century.
And the question has baffled everyone: How could the most unhittable pitcher in baseball history lose 292 games? Bad luck? Sure, he had some of that. Low-scoring teams? Sure, he had some of those too. But let’s be blunt here. You don’t bad luck your way to 292 losses. The blunt truth is that Nolan Ryan had a 111 ERA+ in his career, which is certainly pretty good, but it does not exactly match up to the unhittable quality of his pitching.
Among those of his era with better ERA+ (more than 2,000 innings pitched): Andy Messersmith (121), Ron Guidry (119), Bert Blyleven (118), Gaylord Perry (117), Steve Rogers (116), Luis Tiant (114), John Candelaria (114), Frank Viola (114), Mark Langston (113). There are some really good pitchers on that list. None could throw 101 mph.
So, despite all the strikeouts and all the broken bats and all those low-hit games, Ryan gave up a enough runs to lose a whole lot of baseball games. How?
Well, it comes down to those Banny things I was talking about earlier. Nolan Ryan struck out 1,000 more batters than any pitcher in baseball history, yes, but what is every bit as staggering is that he also WALKED about 1,000 more batters than any pitcher in baseball history (962 more walks than Steve Carlton, if you’re scoring at home). He walked 2,795 batters, and if you want to talk about a record that will never be broken, that’s it.* Last year, for the second consecutive year, Carlos Zambrano led the National League in walks. He had 101. He would have to repeat that every year until he was 49 to break Nolan Ryan’s walk record.
*Although you have to give it up to Pete Rose … when asked to name the most unbreakable record in baseball he says it’s without a doubt Johnny Van Der Meer’s consecutive no-hitters. And when you ask why, he smiles and says, “Because to break it you would have to throw THREE consecutive no-hitters.”
So, the guy just walked a bunch of people. But it was more than that: He also hit a lot of batters. Maybe it was part of his intimidation — maybe that has something to do with the incredibly low hit totals — or maybe he was just out-of-control wild, especially in his younger days. He hit 158 batters, 10th all-time.
He’s the all-time leader in wild pitches with 277 — again, he smokes the competition (unless you want to count Mickey Welch who pitched in the 1880s).
He did not bother to keep runners close: In his career, batters stole 757 bases with him on the mound (and were caught 252 times). Compare that to a guy like Tom Seaver, who did pitch more than 100 fewer games but still, only had 409 steals on him. Bert Blyleven only had 424. Fergie Jenkins only had 284. Gaylord Perry only had 236 (and runners were caught 213 times … that’s pretty amazing, actually).
ADDITION: There’s another thing about Nolan Ryan that I failed to point out the first time through … he spent his entire career pitching in EXTREME pitcher’s parks. Anaheim Stadium was a pitcher’s paradise for all the years Ryan pitched there. And then, he went to the one park that was EVEN BETTER for pitchers … the Astrodome. Even Texas was more of a pitcher’s park, especially in his final years. Nothing wrong with that, but you will notice that Nolan Ryan has Jim Rice like home/road splits in his career:
Home: 189-136, 2.77 ERA — league hit .191/.292/.278.
Road: 135-156, 3.73 ERA — league hit .219/.326/.323.
Now, take a look at Bert Blyleven who pitched in more pitcher-neutral ballparks.
Home: 144-12, 3.29 ERA — league hit .248/.300/.365
Road: 143-138, 3.34 ERA — league hit .247/.302/.369
Just something else to consider.
And when you throw it all together, yeah, it’s fair to say that Nolan Ryan was not the pitcher he might have been. It was a choice. He had the Arm of Zeus, and he was not about to pull back to throw more strikes, not about to hold the runner on when there was a batter to strike out, not about the keep the ball out of the dirt when there was a swing and miss to be had. He did not, by scouting reports I’ve heard, field his position well, he did not pitch to minimize damage, and he did not ever give in, even when the smart money was in giving in.
And I don’t mean any of this as a knock — like I say, Nolan Ryan is the most uncommon player of my lifetime for sure, and I say of all time. He really was a force of nature, a man determined to pitch a baseball on his own terms, in his own way, and he never stopped pitching that way. It won him no-hitters and lost him games, earned him more than 5,700 Ks and also 54 games where he struck out 10 and still lost. It caused him to beat up Robin Ventura in one of the more memorable baseball moments and I suspect Ryan heard more cheers than any pitcher ever. And, at the same time, if you could have him or Koufax, him or Pedro, him or Unit, him or Gibson, him or Seaver — any of them pitching for your soul, who would you choose?
I’ll tell you my favorite Nolan Ryan story again … it was when he faced off against Bo Jackson in ‘89. Ryan, of course, still threw terrifying heat then, and Bo was a folk hero, a unique talent in his own right. Bo, of course, swung for the tape measure every time, and Ryan threw for the strikeout on every pitch so this really was one of those game-rattling match-ups, a Hearns-Hagler, Arguello-Pryer, Ali-Frazier kind of at-bat.
Bo kept fouling off pitches, which was new. They had faced each other six times up to this at-bat — and Bo had struck out all six times. It was just as it should be. The last time, though, Ryan had thrown his million mph fastball, and Bo unloaded his you-could-air-condition-Des-Moines-with-that swing, and even though Bo missed, Ryan had this thought: Wow, how far would THAT ball have gone had he connected?
He found out. Ryan threw a fastball, and Bo unloaded, and the ball traveled 461 feet — there never was a longer ball hit at Arlington Stadium.
Now, to me that was Nolan Ryan. He had to challenge Bo with his best fastball. He just HAD to do it. It was, as the old line goes, in his character. Usually, he got people out. Sometimes, though, he didn’t, they beat him. Nolan would tip his cap and come out slinging the next time. There was an honestly about him. And there was a frustrating denseness about him too. What would Brian Bannister give to have even a touch of Nolan Ryan’s talent? I’ll ask, but I think I know the answer. In the meantime, Banny knows he has to be precisely on his game, he has to aim for corners and hide the ball as long as he can, he has to use every tool and trick he can come up, he has to always be one step ahead in order to win in the big leagues.
Nolan Ryan didn’t have tools or tricks. Didn’t need them. Didn’t want them. He came out to the mound every time out, looked over his kingdom, and decided that today he would throw a no-hitter. Seven times he did. Twelve times he threw a one-hitter. Eighteen other times he threw a two-hitter. And then, lots of other times, he would give up four runs, five runs, more, lose the game. The next time out though, no matter what happened, Ryan would take the mound again like the king of the world.
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I love the interjections where you say “it would take so and so this long at this pace to catch him.” People don’t realize how incredible certain things are until you put them into that kind of perspective.
My dad & I drove from Windsor to Cleveland to see Nolan Ryan pitch during his last year; he had been injured during his scheduled start in Detroit, and Cleveland was the nearest alternative. It was also my one and only chance to see Municipal Stadium, because they moved the next season. Boy, I can’t say Municipal Stadium will be missed.
Anyway, there was a pretty big crowd – virtually all to see Nolan Ryan pitch. He gave up 1 run over 7 innings. He injured himself shortly after that, so that I was at the last game Nolan Ryan ever won. I’ve still got the scorecard from that game.
It would take me 20 years to dedicate myself to sports writing — hours upon hours of crafting my trade, studying the history of a dozen sports, finding myself in entertaining situations that would make great anecdotes, and somehow finding IT inside of me — and then, maybe then, could I spit out a weblog as good as this one.
I saw that same game in Cleveland. My dad, uncle and I drove up from Ashland to see him in his last season. I remember that he didn’t strike a whole lot of batters out, so I was kind of surprised that when he came out of the game after 7 innings I looked at the scoreboard and realized the Indians had only gotten 2 hits.
My favorite memory of that game was when my uncle and I walked down to the bullpen before the game and watched Ryan warm up. The catcher, I don’t know who, wasn’t wearing a mask, and he had his glove just a few inches off the ground. Ryan would rear back and throw, and I thought the ball was going to go through the catcher’s face and leave an indentation of his nostrils on the back of his skull. But at the last second, it would break and slam straight into the glove.
“The next time out though, no matter what happened, Ryan would take the mound again like the king of the world.”
It’s stuff like that that keeps me coming back here every day.
Thanks Joe. Happy 4th.
Ah, Pat Venditte.
Is there anyone NOT rooting for that guy to make the majors?
(Pat Vednitte is, btw, the switch pitcher in that “switch pitcher vs. switch hitter” video)
Joe-thanks for the great read. I’m going to Arlington Stadium next Thursday and I cant wait to share your story of the Nolan-Bo match up.
Your my favorite sports writer!
Dan, that’s pretty cool. I bet we were within spitting distance of each other, because we went down to watch him warm up, too. It was the only game I’ve ever been to where there was such a buzz about a pitcher warming up. The really neat thing to me about the warm up was when he started with the long toss, although “toss” is not the appropriate word because these were 100 foot throws at 90 MPH.
And you’re right about the 2 hits. I had just pulled my scorecard out of the basement with every intention of mentioning that, and for some reason it just slipped my mind. Good call. I guess the other little tidbits from that game was that Jose Mesa, who is now infamous as a reliever, was the Indians’ starting pitcher; and JGone hit a homer about as far as you can – my dad and I were dumbfounded during batting practice, and sonofagun if he didn’t do the same thing during the game.
Just also wanted to point out, in the world of small coincidences (given the recent (and sometimes heated) discussion of Jackie Robinson), that Jules Tygiel, author of Baseball’s Great Experiment: Jackie Robinson and His Legacy, just passed away.
Fernando Tatis has Johnny Van Der Meer beat hands down. Someone else might hit 3 grands slams in one game. Someone else might hit 3 grand slams in one inning (a stretch, but possible). No-one will ever, EVER, EVAR hit 3 grand slams in one inning OFF THE SAME PITCHER.
Tenaletilt, I’ll always remember watching that game and especially Vin Scully’s call (not precisely, just the idea). When Tatis hit the second one, good ol’ Vin wondered aloud whether anyone had ever hit two grand slams in one inning, and then immediately corrected himself, and said no one did. He didn’t know it, but it was just so improbable.
Oh, and for the poll question:
I think Pedro, at his peak, was more dominant than Koufax. But who is more likely to give me 9 innings?
I’m a Tribe fan, and every Tribe fan knows what the bullpen can do in Game 7, don’t we? I want my ace to give me a complete game.
Now you got me thinking — what could Ryan have done, if he pitched with the pitching smarts of Greg Maddux? Phew! What a beautiful wonder.
As for your question about who I’d have pitching if my life was on the line. I went with Koufax. Pedro was never as good as you needed him to be, when he started a game 7. Koufax, tossed a shutout in his game 7, I believe.
I think you undersell Ryan a little bit. He did win two ERA titles and have six other gray ink finishes. His ‘87 campaign at age 40 was outstanding (Steve Bedrosian gets the Cy?) and his ‘91 campaign at 44 was pretty good. He finished his career with 332 win shares, 21st all-time and placed among Blyleven, Robin Roberts and Mickey Welch.
Of course, if Ryan were pitching today, the media would be spending hours and hours speculating on whether he was using PEDs or not.
You have so glorified the pitching style of Bannister that it’s clouding your judgment on someone like Nolan Ryan. I look at the rate at which guys got caught stealing against him and I think, that’s not bad at all. 75% is a scratch better than break-even, and this is without analyzing whether his catchers helped or hurt these numbers.
And what the heck is “minimizing damage”? Far as I know, there’s only one pitcher who’s statistically been shown to pitch with a fundamentally different strategy with runners on, and that’s Glavine. And the difference isn’t huge – a little higher OBP, a little lower SLG, and that’s about it.
Given the choice between Nolan Ryan’s arm and Bannister’s mind, I’ll take the arm. Maybe your point is that Ryan could have had both, but if Bannister had a 99 mph Banny Express to fall back on, would he really spend so much time being a cerebral pitcher?
And by the way, the answer to your poll is Pedro. Someone above mentioned wanting a CG out of your ace; Pedro got the CG in about 25% of his starts in his prime, and that’s with his shoulder falling off the year before. He came out of the bullpen to pitch 6 innings against Cleveland in game 5 of 5 in 1999… and no-hit them with 93 mph junk due to a bum shoulder. So yeah, I think in his prime he could finish it. Answers of Greg Maddux earn half credit.
If I want a CG out of the more recent pitchers, I’m going with Randy Johnson.
I think The Big Unit is closer to Pedro than the poll indicates.
Absolutly wonderful. I am 48 so I remember Ryan with the Angels and another young flame thrower Frank Tanana. The Royals were just starting to get good back then and I always looked forward to playing the Angels. As far as the poll goes remember it says ‘ in their prime’ Pedro was money in the bank. His numbers in the steroid drenched huge batting numbers era are freakish!!
It’s not just Welch on the career wild pitches leaders who’s from the 1880s – 5 of the 6 guys immediately behind Ryan are from the 19th century, when catchers stood way behind the plate and caught the ball barehanded on a bounce, and the pitchers threw an absolute ton of innings. The 6th guy is Phil Niekro, who threw the knuckleball and had a really long career.
Next on the list, and 8th all-time in wild pitches? Jack Morris.
I loved watching Ryan, but the fact that he has 7 votes in the poll for game 7 is just astounding. In fact, looking at the list, I think Ryan should likely be last, or perhaps next to last, better than Morris. So much for an educated readership.
While I picked Pedro, it was close, with Koufax under serious consideration and I agree with the earlier comment that Unit is closer at peak to Pedro than the poll indicates. Damn close, I would say, but I think clearly, at peak Pedro was better. Man, he just toyed with hitters for couple of years there. It sometimes seemed like watching Picasso paint or something — it seemed like Pedro was considering how he was going to completely embarrass whoever was at bat…
Yet, the most famous pitch ever thrown by Nolan Ryan – fastball master – remains the curveball he threw to Paul Blair in the 1969 world series…
“Pedro was never as good as you needed him to be when he started a Game 7″
I don’t know about that. He only started one Game 7 and in that famous game he threw seven innings of two-run ball on the road against a pretty good Yankee lineup. And then of course Little made the fateful decision to bring him back for the eighth.
Also, although it wasn’t literally a Game 7, his six inning of no-hit relief in the decisive Game 5 of the 99 DS is about as dominant a post-season pitching performance as you will ever see.
It was years ago, a Wednesday afternoon matinée at Roylz Stadium, when Ryan and Saberhagen pitched nine full innings of shutout ball.
Just another game — middle of summer, nothing on the line really, travel day… .
It was like watching Picasso paint.
Sabes was still in blue so was at his prime; Nolan was getting up in years (as if that ever seemed to matter).
What I remember most about that afternoon was how Ryan looked in every way like a mutant human being whose only function was to get a baseball from point A to point B. T the time there was a lot of talk about the new computer technology (probably funded by Pixar) that plotted and analyzed the functions of the human body. That day, they should’ve recorded Nolan Ryan. He was the perfect pitching machine.
Saberhagen was damned good that day, too. But he worked a bit harder. Sabes was there to play the game; Ryan was there to pitch.
Both did it well.
And then the game went on for sixteen innings. Both the Rangers and the Roylz got a guy on third base with no outs and neither could win until it was dark and time for supper and a stop by Arthur Bryant’s.
There’s never been a better day in Kansas City.
Is there a more clunky sabermetric acronym than BABIP? I certainly don’t think so. Maybe there are too many consonants. I don’t know. I just really dislike BABIP.
Is there any chance we can get this changed?
Henceforth, I’m going to mentally replace BABIP with BIPA: Balls in Play Average.
Great post, Joe. Like a nice shower after the Jackie-Mattingly thread.
Whenever I think of Ryan I invariably think of another absolute inning eating strike out machine – J.R. Richard. For a few minutes there back in the 70’s I thought Houston would rule the world.
Also, thinking of J.R. Richard makes me think of the Astrodome and those orange uni’s. Maybe those were the X factors in all those K’s. Those uni’s and that park were so garish guys just couldn’t concentrate.
The walks killed Ryan’s capabilities, especially in his younger days. When he finally learned some control around 1980-81 it made a huge difference (Ryan has said he worked on mastering the circle changeup during the 1981 strike). He put a lot of guys on base, and as you noted (but didn’t explicitly state), he didn’t pitch nearly so effectively with men on base. This is true of just about every pitcher, WHIP goes up with runners on, but moreso for Ryan than almost anyone else. The data is out there somewhere — but he lost a lot of his domination when pitching from the stretch.
I watched his 1990 one-hitter against the White Sox on teevee, and that one hit was an excuse-me lucky poke that dropped into short right field. He had the fastball that night, sure, but Ryan also had his curveball falling off a cliff — it was amazing. Despite the fluke hit, I consider that the best Ryan performance I ever got to see. He walked only two, whiffed 16. And THAT Ryan was always worth watching.
Well I’m not sure how you can claim W/L is a worthless stat and then bash Ryan for his losses but Ryan lost 16 games or more six times while posting ERA’s below 3.00 in five of those seasons. Ryan and Blyleven pitched in the same era and Ryans career ERA smokes Blylevens so I’m not sure why Blylevens ERA+ is significantly higher.
I would take Ryan in a heartbeat over Blyleven or Carlton.
And IMO:
Ryan+Bannister=Clemens
The key word here is “in their prime”.
Although Pedro’s prime wasn’t as long as it should have been, I believe that this is his absolute prime.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NYA/NYA199909100.shtml
When you consider the opponent, era and circumstances, I’ll take this over any game pitched by Koufax, perfect game included.
I’d pick Koufax with one game on the line, followed by Seaver, then Pedro, before I would trust Ryan to be “on” that day. Pedro is probably the best in his best years, but Seaver isn’t as bad in his worst years, and while Koufax had some clunkers early, he didn’t pitch very often then. If I get to pick not just the player but also the season, then it’s Gibson, Koufax, Pedro, Ryan. Lets face it: for one season Gibson was inhuman. But before I’d be comfortable picking Ryan, I’d want to know not just the season but the day; he was that unpredictable.
I’m surprised Bob Gibson isn’t leading the poll. Take a look at those postseason stats:
7-2, 1.89 ERA, 92 K, 17 BB, 81 IP
I love the 81 IP in 9 GS, which means he went the full nine in each one of those games. He also bookended his postseason career with losses, so he won seven straight World Series games. He allowed one run or less in five of his nine starts. And he is one of the scariest human beings to ever stand on the mound.
As I like to say, if there was a baseball game between heaven and hell for possession of my eternal soul, I want Gibson as my starting pitcher. He is THE big game pitcher.
Koufax has a postseason ERA below 1, which is kind of awesome, but his team’s record was 4-3 in games he started and he allowed 4 unearned runs on top of those 6 earned runs, so his RA is 1.58, a lot closer to Gibson. Splitting hairs, I know, but that’s what you do when determining the best of the best.
This may be my favorite Ryan game of all time:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/DET/DET197305020.shtml
Imagine how many pitches it takes to face 54 batters.
> I’m not sure why Blylevens ERA+ is significantly higher.
Blyleven’s ERA+ is higher than Ryan’s since his career park-adjusted league ERA is higher (3.90 vs. 3.56). In that context his 3.31 career ERA is more impressive than Ryan’s 3.19.
Look at the parks Blyleven and Ryan played in if you want to see why the difference:
Blyleven played 6 1/2 years in Metropolitan Staium in Minny, a good hitter’s park, 3 in Three Rivers, another good hitters park, 3 1/2 in onld Municipal in Cleveland (finally, a pitcher’s park), 3 1/2 in the homerdome, and the coda in Anaheim.
Ryan pitched the start of his career in Shea and 9 years in the Astrodome, one of the best pithcers parks in history. Is it any wonder that the straight ERA doesn’t tell the whole story?
Ok, I guess that makes sense.
Ah, Nolan Ryan. He retired when I was a mere lad of 8 and was just getting into the game. A year later Topps released the final regular-season issue of a Nolan Ryan card, and they had his accomplishments spelled out in the background: 5,714 strikeouts, 7 no-hitters, and 324 wins. That led me to think that Nolan Ryan was this untouchable pitching god. When I saw that Steve Carlton had 329 wins, I was nonplussed. “Who does this fellow think he is, getting more wins than the great Nolan Ryan?” Heh. I was pretty stupid back then.
Oh, and I’m sure you meant that Bert Blyleven went 144-112 at home. There would be no way to keep him out of the Hall if he lost only 12 games at home. XD
Joe, to be honest, I couldn’t stand your writing in the past. You always seemed to be sugar coating things when the Royals or Chiefs needed a tongue lashing. After reading this blog for a while now my opinion has totally changed. I now look at you as the best writer I read (there aren’t many).
Regarding Ryan, he has always been my favorite pitcher although I am well aware that there are plenty of better ones who don’t have a bad side like Ryan’s. I lived in Houston when he came to town and got to enjoy a little R&R.
Ryan did certain things at levels no one else has matched though and that is what makes him my favorite. At the end of his career he was looked at in a way that no other player has ever been in my lifetime. He is the only pitcher I have only seen send a coach or manager back to the dugout before they got across the foul line on their way to the mound. The boos that would come out each time a manager came out to remove him from the game he was booed incredibly. Ryan would then walk off to a standing O regardless of how well he pitched and then the manager would get booed as he made his way back to the dugout.
Watching a 40+ year old pitcher beat a young player who was probably 20 years younger to a pulp was amazing. It was just one more thing that made Ryan who he is. All I could think about was how stupid Ventura was for rushing the mound and that was just because of the bad press he would get for it. It hadn’t even occurred to me that Ryan would also teach him a lesson in the worst of ways.
Ryan’s final years with Texas were all the more amazing when you look at his stats. As a 42 year old he has 301Ks in 239IP while only walking 98. That’s a 3/1 and I’ll take that everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. He mellowed out a bit as his career came to an end and you can tell by his control. However, that did not effect his K numbers or his H/9. He was able to get 2 no hitters after turning 40 and most pitchers are lucky to get one at any time in their careers.
Nolan Ryan reached a level that no other player I have had the honor of seeing has reached. Not even George in KC. He was cheered in every stadium he pitched in home or away. Fans didn’t care whether or not he was pitching well, they just cared that he was pitching. When a fan of a team wants to see a pitcher on the field just to see them and doesn’t care how it effects the game, that pitcher has reached a level that is only achieved in movies.
It is the end of his career and everything that accompanied it that is most amazing to me. I don’t know if I will ever see it again. Some claim Bonds was the best hitter ever and he has faded into oblivion other than the occasional nutcase that still wants them to play for the Royals. Clemens could have received it as well but he blew it. I see no player who will receive the same good bye as Ryan did.
Wow. Terrific post, Joe. You might consider writing for a living, you know.
I haven’t even read the post yet. Want to get this off my chest first. The lack of love for Tom Seaver in the poll is appalling. And that Nolan Ryan is ahead of him is a joke. It reminds me of that all-century team years ago when the All-Star game was in Boston. Nolan was on the team and Tom was not. Which was just absurd.
I suppose it’s a combination of our natural collective short-term memory and Nolan’s final years coinciding with the rise of SportsCenter, but Tom Seaver is in the conversation as to who is the greatest pitcher of all time. Or at least the greatest pitcher post-deadball era. Nolan’s not in that conversation and he’s not that close to being in the conversation.
In fact, the only people who are acceptable to put of ahead of Seaver in the “who do you want for Game 7″ poll are Pedro and Koufax. Because they’re the only pitchers in the poll who are arguably better than Seaver at their peaks. I mean, you have to win one game and you’re picking John Smoltz over Tom Seaver? You’ve got to be like an 18-year old Atlanta Brave fan who doesn’t know any better to want Smoltz over Seaver.
A quick note about Herb Score. I believe Neyer has debunked the belief on several occasions that Score’s effectiveness ended after McDougal drilled him with a liner back through the box. That is not the case, however, as Score came back and was as dominant as before. But it wasn’t long before he blew out his arm, and THAT is what knocked Score off the Hall of Fame track.
Back to the guts of the post — one reason why there will never be anyone like Ryan in the future is that the big leagues would never allow any pitcher to throw as many pitches as Ryan did. I understand the need to protect pitchers’ arms, but the protection comes at the expense of watching those gifted few with the genes to withstand the rigors of pitching. Imagine what Lincecum might do if they let go of the leash. Yes, the odds are that he will get hurt, but just think if he is one of the lucky few in the world that could handle the workload. Greatness is being harnessed by pitch counts, unfortunately, to allow the less than great to have longer careers, making so much more money than the pitchers of yesteryear that threw 300+ innings.
Whoa, off my soap box …
Have to agree with Stepbaker, though I may be biased since I voted for Gibson in the poll — Pedro has one game seven in his career, in the LCS, and he’s remembered for not being pulled in the 8th inning. Gibson, meanwhile, has three game sevens (and prior to 1969, post-season play was World Series play):
1964 – complete game win over Yankees
1967 – complete game win over Red Sox
1968 – complete game loss to Tigers (against Mickey Lolich, who threw eight shutout innings before giving up a run in the 9th)
Koufax, though, I can understand — Walter Alston brought Koufax into game seven of the 1965 World Series against the Twins on two days rest (bypassing Don Drysdale, who hadn’t pitched since a complete game win in game four) and he threw a three-hit shutout to ice the Series (and earn a deserved series MVP award). It was the only game seven Koufax would pitch (or need to); compare to Pedro, who could have done the same thing in 2004 against the Yankees but didn’t — instead, Terry Francona went with Derek Lowe as the game seven starter, though Pedro did pitch an inning of relief (and gave up two runs). Even Koufax’s one impressive game seven, though, doesn’t trump Gibson’s record in my mind (and Morris’s game seven, which is more memorable if less effective than Koufax’s, hasn’t garnered him much if any consideration).
It seems less like people are considering the question as asking ‘who’s the best game seven pitcher ever?’ and instead just asking ‘who on this list is the best pitcher ever?’
As for Joe’s comments on Nolan Ryan, I know that Joe and Bill James are friends, and James makes a similar argument in his Historical Baseball Abstract with respect to Ryan. Interestingly, though, James also argues that the position taken by Joe above wasn’t really an option for sportswriters during Ryan’s career, because other players were in awe of Ryan and the writers didn’t want to write things about Ryan that would piss off the other players. James is far from the only writer to suggest that sportswriters’ relationship with the subjects of their writing makes it difficult if not impossible for them to be truly objective (Michael Lewis in ‘Moneyball’ and Will Leitch in ‘God Save The Fan’ make very similar arguments); reading Joe’s essay makes me wonder how many sportswriters might have similar opinions, but be unable to express them because they’d have to do so through the medium of their newspaper sports column, where such objectively critical thinking often seems discouraged.
i love pedro. but schilling is a big game pitcher.
The time is right to trade Dejesus.
Koufax, Gibson and Seaver all belong ahead of Pedro. And Nolan Ryan should not even be in consideration. Look up game 5, 1980 playoffs if you don’t believe me.
I freaking love Nolan Ryan.
I take Pedro in his prime. As a young (23) Red Sox fan, I am of course highly biased – but the man had an ERA+ of 291 in 2000. TWO HUNDRED AND NINETY-ONE.
The reason Pedro doesn’t have the same anecdotes that, say, Gibson does is that the Red Sox simply didn’t surround him with enough talent to put him in those situations when he was fully capable of taking advantage of them. Look at Pedro’s postseason career:
He pitched one game in 1998 – game 1 of the ALDS. He wasn’t brilliant – 7 innings, 3 ER, 8Ks – but he didn’t need to be, since the Sox gave him 11 runs of support and won handily. Unfortunately, they proceeded to blow the next 3 games and that was all for Pedro.
Now we come to 1999 and 2000 – Pedro’s absolute, unquestioned prime and what is likely the best two-year stretch of pitching in the history of baseball (Maddux in 1994-1995 is up there too).
In 1999, Pedro came out after 4 innings with an injury in his first start – and came back to throw six no-hit innings of relief against a monstrous Cleveland lineup that had been absolutely crushing the ball in the first three innings (8 runs), and he did this without his fastball. He then faced the eventual World Series champion Yankees in the ALCS and threw seven shutout innings with 12 strikeouts in Game 3, the only game of the series that the Red Sox won. In total, he threw 17 innings in that postseason, allowing 5 hits, 6 walks, striking out 23 and giving up not a single run. And he wasn’t even completely healthy the whole time. THAT is the Pedro Martinez that I would bet my life on.
In 2000, his most dominant year… the Sox missed the playoffs entirely.
They did not make it back until 2003, when Pedro was past his prime, no longer quite as overpowering and notorious for falling off a cliff, effectiveness-wise, past 100 pitches. The Grady Little game was the infamous result. So, in the end, his numbers don’t look as good as the great postseason aces of the past – but the fact of the matter is, he simply wasn’t given the opportunity to shine in his prime. And this argument is about people’s primes.
If we’re talking overall postseason career, then yeah, Gibson. But since we’re not, I’ll go with the most dominating pitcher I’ll probably ever see.
Great post. I was at this game in 1985: http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/LAN/LAN198506220.shtml
Fernando vs. Nolan Ryan. Look at the bottom of the 5th. Score tied 1-1. Dave Anderson reaches on a single, Fernando bunts and Ryan throws the ball into the stands. Anderson to 3rd, Fernando to 2nd. With Steve Sax up, Ryan throws a wild pitch – Anderson scores, Fernando to 3rd. Sax gets on with an infield single (probably a bunt – I wonder if Ryan misplayed this one too) and Fernando stays on 3rd. Next batter flies out to right, but apparently not deep enough to score Fernando. So with one out, runners on 1st and 3rd, Steve Sax steals 2nd. Now runners on 2nd and 3rd and Ken Landreaux singles. Both runs score (Fernando is unearned) and Landreaux goes to 2nd on the throw home. Pedro Guerrero is intentionally walked (side note: Pedro hit 15 home runs in June of 1985, at the time that was the record for most home runs in a month). Brock singles, a run scores. RJ Reynolds strikes out. Two down, runners on 1st and 2nd. Scioscia singles, a another run scores. Dave Anderson comes up again and flies out to end the inning.
The point is, the whole inning would have been different if Ryan could have fielded a bunt, not thrown a wild pitch and also held Sax at 1st. Instead the Dodgers bat around and blow the game open.
Fernando struck out 14 that game, BTW.
I was only 9 years old. I sat in the right field bleachers for that game and I remember the big inning and the impression I have of Ryan is that he was bigger than anybody else on the field. I remember him coming out of the rightfield bullpen and walking tg the dugout before the game and he looked gigantic. On the mound, too, he looked huge even from where we were sitting.
Another note: there are a number of records that fall into the “will never be broken” category, but the top of the list, to me, is Cy Young’s 749 complete games (he threw a complete game in 92% of his career starts). Given the fact that most pitchers don’t even come close to STARTING that many games in their careers, and given how few complete games pitchers throw in this day and age, it’s so far out of reach that it’s not even worth thinking about.
For comparison, the top 3 active pitchers today in career complete games: Greg Maddux (109), Randy Johnson (99), and Curt Schilling (83). Three phenomenal pitchers with long careers – two no doubt HOFers and a man who will likely make it in – and only Maddux (barely) has thrown 1/7th of the complete games Young did.
“I don’t know about that. He only started one Game 7 and in that famous game he threw seven innings of two-run ball on the road against a pretty good Yankee lineup. And then of course Little made the fateful decision to bring him back for the eighth.”
While it was undoubtedly a bad decision by Little to put Pedro back out there, the fact is still that PEDRO coughed up those runs. OR does that not count?
“Also, although it wasn’t literally a Game 7, his six inning of no-hit relief in the decisive Game 5 of the 99 DS is about as dominant a post-season pitching performance as you will ever see.”
I think Don Larsen disagrees with you.
My favorite Nolan Ryan memory:
May 1st, 1991: My mom got free tickets to the Royals game that night so her and I went out to Royals Stadium to take in the game. The Royals were playing the Tigers that night.
Typical Royals game, the Royals were losing going into the 9th inning. Tigers don’t score in the 9th and while the teams are changing sides they start showing the bottom of the 9th inning of the Rangers Blue Jays game on the jumbotron where Nolan Ryan is working on a No-hitter.
Play resumes in the Royals game and people start booing when the feed from the Rangers game is turned off.
Mike Henneman is rolling along through the Royals hitters when suddenly Sparky Anderson pops out of the Tigers dugout and takes a long slow stroll to the mound.
Since there’s a timeout while Sparky is meandering out there, the Royals turn the feed back on to the Royals game where Nolan Ryan is working on the last batter of the game (Roberto Alomar).
While Sparky is standing around taking his time talking to Henneman, Ryan blows Alomar away with his 16th strikeout of the night and the crowd goes wild.
At this point Sparky heads back to the dugout and the Tigers finish putting away the Royals.
I’ll never forget Sparky stopping the game so that we could see history.
The best pitcher in MLB history has been Porfirio Altamirano. Yes.