It’s funny, I can remember being young and in Cleveland and hearing old men — or, anyway, men who SEEMED old to me at the time — screaming about Jim Brown. Nobody was better than Jim Brown, they said. Nobody.
I believed this to be true, of course, having grown up in Cleveland at the Temple of Jim. But I was also a wiseass. “What about Earl Campbell?” I might ask. And it is true that to this day, I still say that Earl Campbell for three years — 1978 to 1980 — was the single most unstoppable force I personally have ever seen on a football field. Bo Jackson was for his short period of time the most electrifying, Emmitt Smith the most consistently good, Walter Payton the most complete, Barry Sanders the most exciting … but Earl Campbell was the closest thing to unfair I ever saw. There’s a good scene in the first Jurassic Park — the only one I’ve seen — where one of the dinosaurs is chasing a car, and it’s running REALLY fast, like 35 or 40 mph, and it’s terrifying to think that something that enormous could run that fast. That’s how I always felt watching Earl Campbell.
Anyway, I might have suggested Earl Campbell, just to set off the Cleveland men, and it always worked, these grown men on my father’s bowling team or teachers at my school or neighbors on my street … they would SCREAM at me — “Earl Campbell? Are you crazy? Earl Campbell? Compared to Jim Brown? I … I … Earl Campbell? Are you … seriously … I mean … Jim Brown to Earl Campbell … it’s like … are you CRAZY?” This is how they talked, they were so angry they sputtered, so furious about the blasphemous comparison they could not even put words or logic together. They did not want to argue. They were unwilling to argue. See, to even ARGUE about Jim Brown vs. anybody was to give voice to something profane and godless and unspeakable.
I used to get quite a bit of amusement out of this. And to be honest, I never understood the big deal. Yes, I understood, Jim Brown was a God in Cleveland. And I knew he was incomparably great. And I vaguely understood as I myself got older that we old people might not want let go of out own time, we often believe (and need to believe) that our time was special, our music was hipper, our movies were cooler, our schools were better and harder, our sports heroes were more heroic. Still, I never got why it mattered so much. I didn’t get why these people would go crazy about how Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano would knock Muhammad Ali’s block off, or how Joe DiMaggio would hit .400 every year against these soft pitchers, or whatever. I just didn’t get why it meant THAT MUCH to them.
And even as I have grayed and balded and aged into my late 30s and early 40s, even as the overwhelming superstars of my childhood have been surpassed and forgotten, even as Tiger Woods closes in on Jack Nicklaus, even as numerous quarterbacks make the case that they’re superior to Roger Staubach or Joe Montana, even as Barry Bonds passes Hank Aaron or Roger Federer stakes his claim … I don’t feel all that emotional about it. I might argue the point. I might stand up for athletes in my time. But I don’t go all Mad Money about it. Yeah, I think Carling Bassett was hotter that Maria Sharapova. Well, hell, I SHOULD think that, I was 13 then. Anyway, I’m not going to lose my mind over it.
Well, that is … until this NBA Finals began.
And then I started hearing people actually comparing Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan.
I should say up front that I honestly do not know how many people were making this comparison … maybe it was only Mark Jackson on TV and a few annoying people trying to cause a stir — sort of the way sports magazines of my youth (with original names like Inside Sports and Sport) tried to spur reader reaction by having these ridiculous headlines on their covers like, “Why Wayne Gretzky is not the best player in hockey” or “Why the Seattle Mariners are going to win it all” or whatever. So I don’t know if this Kobe vs. Michael thing is real or just something to talk about or a strawman to knock down. I really don’t know.
I do know this: Just the thought that anyone was even having this argument made me surprisingly angry.
Now, first, let me say that Kobe Bryant is an excellent basketball player who has led the NBA in scoring twice, who annually makes the All-Defensive team, who was a huge part of the three-peat Lakers and who was the clear leader on this Lakers team that reached the NBA Finals. He’s a terrific player, and I’m sure his stats are pretty similar to Michael’s …
Kobe Bryant: 25.0 points, 5.2 rebounds, 4.6 assists, 1.5 steals, 0.6 blocks, 2.9 turnovers, 45.3% FG pct.
Michael Jordan: 30.1 points, 6.2 rebounds, 5.3 assists, 2.3 steals, 0.8 blocks, 2.7 turnovers, 49.7 FG pct.
OK, never mind, his number are not really similar at all. But Kobe still has some great years left, and he’s excellent and …
No, I can’t keep this going. It’s happened. Here is my first old man sports moment. This whole thing just ticks me off. Comparing Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan is like … er … it’s just plain … Kobe Bryant? To Michael Jordan? What? … I mean, that’s like saying that … um … I mean Kobe Bryant is like … are you CRAZY?“
Yep, that’s me sputtering. I cannot even begin a viable argument because it’s like arguing why chocolate cake tastes better than roofing insulation. It’s like arguing that Abraham Lincoln was a more significant American than John Candy. It’s like arguing that Casablanca is a better movie than the Bay City Rollers album Once Upon A Star … It’s like … Kobe? Compared to Michael? Are you serious? … it’s like here it is again, to even ARGUE the point is so frustrating, so infuriating, because you have to begin with an unfair premise, that being that there IS AN ARGUMENT to be made, and there is not.*
*I used to have an old newspaper editor who weaned me off the word ”arguably“ because, he said, ”Everything is arguable.“ He’s wrong about that. Kobe vs. Michael is not arguable.
Yes, this is the first time I feel really EMOTIONAL about an athlete of my childhood. I really do mean no offense to Kobe — OK, maybe a little offense, I don’t like him much, and I am partial to others like Tim Duncan, and I’d rather have Chris Paul or LeBron. Still, I appreciate that he’s a great player, one of the best of his time. But comparing him to Michael? What? I can’t help it … that infuriates me.
And the funny thing is that I wasn’t even THAT BIG a Jordan fan. It’s something else, something harder to describe, it’s an old man thought, I guess. Kobe is a great player. But Michael was the best player. He was one of the very, very few who you didn’t have to like … he towered over everything. And to compare those two, I guess, feels a little bit like saying my time doesn’t count, that my athletes were not as great, that there’s something more special about today than there was about when I was young and alive and brilliantly aware. Maybe that doesn’t make much sense. It’s emotional, I guess.
In any case, I was thinking about this again while watching the NBA Finals end on Tuesday in ignominy and disgrace for Kobe Bryant and the Lakers. I mean, seriously, the Lakers lost by THIRTY NINE POINTS. I won’t lie: That gave me some old man joy. The Lakers seemed to think they were playing a preseason game in Dubuque. They didn’t just get outclassed, they played like they didn’t care. Kobe was laughably bad. He was 7 for 22 from the field, he had one assist, four turnovers — you got the sense he only brought a carry-on bag with him to Boston.
And the argument is over. Forever. I don’t care what happens from here on out, I don’t care how many points Kobe scores or how many good years he has left, nobody with sense will ever have the gall again to compare Kobe and Michael. It’s not even worth saying that what happened to the Lakers on Tuesday could not possibly have happened to a Michael Jordan TEAM. What is worth saying is that Michael Jordan playing BY HIMSELF would have put up a better fight.
So, hey, score one for my era. There may someday be a player so great, so dominating, so victorious that even this old man will have to nod and say: ”OK, he’s even better than Michael.“ Then again, there may not.
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105 Comments, Comment or Ping
Morgan
John Candy was Canadian.
Jun 17th, 2008
Jim
It’s not Kobe’s fault that his teamates couldn’t hit a shot. They were getting good looks too because the Celtics attention was on Kobe. With Bynum coming back next year it will be the start of a new Lakers dynasty.
Jun 17th, 2008
Katzowitz
But if John Candy was American, it’d be pretty close. Maybe he didn’t free the slaves, but he was stunning as Barf in Spaceballs.
Princess Vespa: I am Princess Vespa, daughter of Roland, King of the Druids.
Lone Starr: Oh great. That’s all we needed. A Druish princess.
Barf: Funny, she doesn’t look Druish.
Barf: I’m a mog: half man, half dog. I’m my own best friend!
John Candy deserves his own statue also.
Jun 17th, 2008
Jeff
Joe,
Read your blog all the time, love it…
The other day I was out at a playground in my neighborhood in south Minneapolis. I was shooting some hoops when this young kid, maybe, nine or 10 (I am 23) walks up and starts shooting with me.
He was saying things that kids say when they shoot hoops.
He’d make a shot and say, “Net!” Then he’d make another, “That’s it.”
Sometimes when I’d make a shot he’d even say things, “Boom!”
Still, I now know that God sent this kid over just to challenge me, because out of nowhere he makes a shot and says, “Kobe!”
Then he proceedes to tell me, without prompting, “Jordan couldn’t touch Kobe!”
Now, I consider myself the biggest Michael Jordan fan to ever come out of Dallas Center, Iowa, and trust me it isn’t even close. I may be the biggest Jordan fan in Iowa and Minnesota.
Then, “Jordan ain’t nothin’ compared to Kobe, I’ve seen it.”
Then, “You know Kobe’s the freshest out there!”
He keeps saying all of this stuff and I’m sitting there getting angrier and angrier but laughing to myself because he’s literally 10-years-old, he comes up to my waist, maybe my mid-section.
We keep shooting, I’m rebounding for him occassionally, he helps me out when I miss. We don’t talk too much, but again he starts.
“Yo, Jordan only had five MVP’s”
I had my chance, so I said, “Actually, Jordan had six MVP’s and Kobe has only had one, this year.”
He paused, then looked at me and, while floating up another jumper that landed, said:
“Yeah, but Jordan can’t touch Kobe’s 81…”
Jun 18th, 2008
Brian Gunn
If Jordan had played under the same rules as Kobe, he’d've AVERAGED 81.
Jun 18th, 2008
Devon
I’m totally with you here! When I heard them on TV saying that, I’m like, “huh? You just said whaaa?”. I’d never heard anybody try that sentence before. Well, when Kobe leads the league in scoring a few more times, grabs 5 more MVP’s, and motivates his team to pull off another three-peat….maybe then I’ll say it’s arguable.
Jun 18th, 2008
Joe
I think the fact that any time a young phenom emerges in the NBA and draws comparison to Jordan, it’s a testament to the man’s greatness.
I’m a Detroit fan, through and through, so I hated Jordan when I was growing up, but I had sense enough to realize he was something special.
There’s never going to be a “next Jordan”, because he’s too special, too unique. That’s like calling someone the next Gandhi. Sometimes there’s just no replacement.
Jun 18th, 2008
JBish
to me, the moment that turned the Kobe v. Jordan debate into a non-issue wasn’t tonight’s no-show in game 6. Instead, it was the Lakers monumental collapse in game 4. The first half reminded me of the beating Jordan’s Bulls put on the 98 Jazz in game 3… a game that Michael and company blitzed Malone and Stockton off the court 96-55, still the biggest win in NBA Finals history. Instead, your MVP conspired with his teammates to throw the series away.
Kobe’s “struggled to get to the basket” in these NBA Finals. Anyone who remembers Jordan torching the 90’s Knicks and Pistons ought to be ashamed if they think, even for a second, that Kobe has Michael’s offensive game. He played against defenses (as Brian Gunn alluded to in an earlier comment) that were allowed to grab him mercilessly every possession… and he still out-everything’ed Kobe across the board.
Jun 18th, 2008
Snowman
Now see, I guess I’m an oddity on this. I hated the stuff that was there when I was a kid. The music was disco. The pants were bellbottoms. The TV shows were Charlie’s Angels, Starsky and Hutch*, The Dukes of Hazzard, and Three’s Company. Our President’s were Nixon, Ford, and Carter. Ugh. There were some really good movies being made (the real Godfather movies, Dog Day Afternoon, The French Connection, Chinatown, All The President’s Men, etc.), but they were sort of the exception of the times, the oasis in a cultural desert. They didn’t get nearly the common-man attention of a Saturday Night Fever (or it’s sequel), Grease (or it’s sequel), or those Clint Eastwood pictures with the monkey. Hell, the various exploitation flicks were more talked about at the time.
Give me the old men’s stuff any day, because my generation grew up with crap.
*David Soul is a very distant relative of mine. 8th cousin twice removed, or something ridiculous like that. How often do you think that comes up in conversation? If you said more than once every thirty years, you were incorrect.
Jun 18th, 2008
Old Man Duggan
I was thinking exactly the same thing when Kobe disappeared in yet another second half this series.
It’s absolutely preposterous to compare the two. Honestly, I don’t think he’s even as good as LeBron (who is clearly not Jordan) since LeBron at least kept his series against the Celtics close and he has absolutely no supporting cast.
Jordan was a fucking God. Seriously. He was always everything.
Paul Pierce was closer to being Michael than Kobe.
Jun 18th, 2008
Old Man Duggan
Snowman,
The 70’s saw maybe the greatest explosion of filmmaking the world’s ever seen. Scorcese, Kubrick, Coppola, Lumet, Pollack, Allen, Pakula, Lucas, Altman, Mallick, Speilberg, and Polanski were all incredibly on top of their games. Just think, George Lucas actually produced films that weren’t just watchable but were actually good.
Jun 18th, 2008
Old Man Duggan
And “The Rockford Files” still stands the test of time as one of the greatest shows ever.
Jun 18th, 2008
c r
Kobe has never lorded over the NBA the way Jordan did. Never had the spotlight solely on him as the team leader. Never been the one to be exclusively in the spotlight. Until 2 weeks ago. And when that happened, where did he go? He had one game where he really carried his team, and the rest were pretty average for a lead star. That NEVER happened with Jordan. He didn’t have looks? Then giddy-up and make them. We heard about all this competitiveness, but the look on his face during the finals looked pretty passive. You never needed to worry about that with Jordan. Ever. Wanna compare Jordan? Ok, Babe Ruth, Jim Brown and Wayne Gretzky. Everyone else can go home.
Jun 18th, 2008
Snowman
Oh, I agree completely, Old Man Duggan (and I would add Friedkin to your list.). That was the reason I mentioned that particular exception to the terrible culture of the time. But at the time, you never heard anyone talking about those movies or those people. It was the garbage that everyone was excited about, that everyone went to see, that everyone you knew (at least, everyone that I as a kid knew) was talking about. Those great movies are what we remember now because they’re what stands out, they’re what was worthwhile, but then they seemed to be largely ignored by the general public.
You know, I’m pretty sure that at some point I must have seen at least one episode of The Rockford Files, but I’ll be damned if I can recall it now.
Jun 18th, 2008
John from north of Cincinnati
Reminds me of how Sparky Anderson reacted to a comment about Thurman Munson during the 1976 World Series:
“Don’t never embarrass nobody by comparing him to Johnny Bench.”
Jun 18th, 2008
DosCarlos
Amen, Joe.
Jun 18th, 2008
Oddibe Kerfeld
A little known fact is that Earl Campbell’s statue outside Memorial Stadium in Austin is life size. Campbell was approximately 18 feet tall and weighed around 1,000 pounds. No wonder he just destroyed his opponents. Here’s a photo.
http://flickr.com/photos/14348445@N05/2375316639/
Jun 18th, 2008
Monkeyhawk
I was once in the same room with Michael Jordan.*
* Okay, it was the arena in the old Chicago Stadium, but it FELT as if he showed up that night just for me.
I hate regular season NBA basketball as much as I love every bit of college basketball. Pro ball just goes through the motions during the regular season while making it look too easy; a less-funny amalgam of the Harlem Globetrotters and Washington Generals, with worse defense.
And Scottie Pippin carried the Bulls that night. Jordan had twisted an ankle and was about 3/4ths speed. He got his points, he tossed brilliant passes to Pippin, he knew a lot of people had spent good money for him to perform. It was a Blackstone Saturday matinée night in January in Chicago against the Cleveland Cavaliers.
Then in the third quarter, with everyone in the room (including the players, I’m sure) wondering if it was time to get another beer, Jordon trots the ball down the court and stops for a moment at the free throw line, just casually dribbling.
It was like the tag line for the first Christopher Reeve “Superman” movie. “You will believe a man can fly!” Or like Mary Martin as “Peter Pan” telling “Michael” (tell me that’s not an omen) to “Think lovely thoughts.”
And all of a sudden, with no discernible physical effort or exertion, off the injured ankle, Jordan recreated his Nike logo. There. In the same room with me.
Kobe’s got game.
Jordan had… and created… lovely thoughts.
A man can… at least could… fly.
Jun 18th, 2008
Monkeyhawk
“Oddibe Kerfeld” contributed –
“A little known fact is that Earl Campbell’s statue outside Memorial Stadium in Austin is life size. Campbell was approximately 18 feet tall and weighed around 1,000 pounds.”
That’s funny.
And it should go into Campbell’s Wikipedia entry.
Thanks.
Jun 18th, 2008
Curtis
If Manu doesn’t sprain his ankle against the Hornets, …..
Oh, never mind. I’ll add it to the list with the .4 shot and the foul against Dirk.
There has been a supreme talent watching over the league since Jordan was a Bull, but he plays in the post deep in the heart of Texas.
But even he ain’t no Jordan.
Jun 18th, 2008
Flanders
Joe wrote:
“…That’s like calling someone the next Gandhi…”
Great as The Mahatma was, he couldn’t really go to his left and ironically for a man of peace, he was somewhat foul prone…
Jun 18th, 2008
Noel
2 random thoughts:
1) Thanks for the Carling Bassett reference!
2) Glad I’m not the only one who would get angry at those “Inside Sport” covers.
Jun 18th, 2008
B.E. Earl
I’m a product of the 80’s and I flinch whenever anyone compares today’s player’s with Jordan.
I also flinch when they compare anyone to Larry Bird or Magic Johnson.
LeBron James, Chris Paul, Dwayne Wade, Kobe Bryant, etc… They are all fantastic player. But none of them belong in the Holy Trinity of Jordan, Bird and Magic.
Those three guys were simply the best.
Jun 18th, 2008
Zach
Ironically, comparisons to Joe Montana always seem a little backhanded to me. It’s as though they’re saying “Well, he’s successful, but we don’t really know why, and we wouldn’t bet on it happening again.”
Jun 18th, 2008
Jeff
Kobe might be the best first quarter player I’ve ever seen. That’s got to count for something.
I’m thrilled for Pierce. One of my all-time favorites. He has always been such a great player in big moments, yet he has so rarely had the opportunity to play in the really big moments (if that makes any sense).
Jun 18th, 2008
Zach
I could see getting worked up about comparisons to Ichiro! in the future. Especially since most of the players that resemble Ichiro physically are nowhere near as good as him.
Jun 18th, 2008
Mike
I’m 99.9 percent sure Joe knows John Candy was Canadian. Reread the section. He also knows that Once Upon a Star (I’m taking Joe at his word that it exists) is not a movie. (”It’s like arguing that Casablanca is a better movie than the Bay City Rollers album Once Upon A Star …”) It’s a literary device, although I don’t remember its name. Maybe we could name it for Joe. Joe-perbole or something.
Jun 18th, 2008
Brent
It’s not just old man joy. I’m 23 and can’t stand this argument. As a kid, Jordan was god. Looking back I can’t ever remember him missing a shot. Kobe is a back-stabbing (shaq) rapist.
Jun 18th, 2008
Joe M.
I grew up in Chicago when Jordan was there. In about fifth grade we had a little game where we’d say who we were in the Bulls game the night before. We’d usually pick one of the bench players who’d had a better game than normal, like “I was Ed Nealy last night” or “I was Cliff Levingston.” Sometimes people would claim to have been Scottie Pippen or Horace Grant, but that was frowned upon. One time a guy said he was Michael Jordan. That ended the game. One of the other kids said “You don’t have the intestinal fortitude to be Michael Jordan.”
Jun 18th, 2008
Mikey
Jordan vs. Kobe? I agree. The question itself is an insult.
Jordan vs. LeBron? That gets more interesting.
Personally I think LeBron is the best 23 year old basketball player I’ve ever seen.
Jordan at 23: 37.1 ppg, 5.2 reb, 4.6 ass, 2.9 stls, 1.5 blks. Supporting cast: Oakley, Paxson, Corzine
LeBron at 23: 30.0 ppg, 7.9 reb, 7.2 ass, 1.8 stls, 1.1 blks. Supporting cast: Ilgauskas, Gibson, Gooden
Love the Diner poll. “You ever get the feeling there’s something going on we don’t know about?”
Jun 18th, 2008
AzHawk97
Google has just noted that “Carling Bassett” is the most poplular image search of the day, however they have no explanation for the phenomenon.
Jun 18th, 2008
Nate
Completely agree. Kobe is a good player but no where near the level of Jordan. When you think about it, it’s not a stretch to say he wasn’t even one of the top 3 or 4 players on the court in Game 6 (Pierce, Garnett, Allen, Rondo all had better games, heck even Odom showed some heart attacking the basket when they were getting slaughtered… there were times that I forgot if Kobe was on the bench or on the court, he simply was invisible).
As a Cavs fan however, the Kobe - Jordan comparisons are especially annoying because they assume Kobe can’t be compared to any of his contemporaries. Mike Breen and company called Kobe “the best player on the planet” at least 30 times in the Finals. Meanwhile, LeBron and his subpar teammates are 5-0 against Kobe and the Lakers, including 2 wins this year when LeBron completely dominated Kobe down the stretch, shutting him down on defense and then using his superior strength to get to the rim on the other end. Why doesn’t anyone bring this up? And, forget about Jordan for a second, is there any way a LEBRON team would get trounced by 39 in an elimination game or blow a 24 point lead in the finals? I don’t think so.
Jun 18th, 2008
SBG
It was over for Kobe when he mailed in the second half of that game 7 against Phoenix. Over.
Jun 18th, 2008
Damon Rutherford
“The Rockford Files” were very good, but “Magnum, p.i.” arrived and blew it away.
Jun 18th, 2008
Kevin
Cutting Crew’s “I Just Died In Your Arms Tonight” should have been under consideration as the worst No. 1 song of all time.
That is not arguable.
Jun 18th, 2008
maiuchuck
Well I am/was one of those old men in Cleveland who thought/thinks that there will never be another Jim Brown.
However, some time in the ’70s as I was watching a Bills Monday night game I was having some doubts. OJ might be a tad faster, a little more elusive and could hit damn near as hard as Jim - maybe, just maybe OJ might be at least as good as Mr. Brown.
But then I went back and looked at some film of Jim - unbelievable! The man could hit you like a freight train and juke you and leave you wondering where he went. Just imagine Earl Campbell with Gayle Sayers’ moves. That was Jim Brown - there will never be another.
Jun 18th, 2008
Josh in DC
I love the nickname “The Incomparable” for Jim Brown. It’s the best. It’s not even a nickname. It’s a title. As soon as you say, “The Incomparable Jim Brown,” it shuts down the argument.
…
“There will nevah, evah, evah be another Larry Bird.” — Magic Johnson.
Jun 18th, 2008
antoniomo
Magnum P.I. over The Rockford Files? I don’t think so. Maybe we need a poll….
Jun 18th, 2008
Rob
Carling Bassett…..ahhhh…..good memories…..
Jun 18th, 2008
Rob
Plus she was directly related to the brewing Family, how great is that?
Jun 18th, 2008
Marco
When people bring up the Kobe nonsense, I love to hand them the points/reb/assists numbers for four current players and ask them to pick Kobe out of the list.
22.8/4.2/5.5
25.0/5.2/4.6
23.1/6.4/3.9
23.9/4.8/6.5
Isn’t it just a little silly to consider Kobe for the title of “best player ever” when his numbers don’t even stand out from his contemporaries? (By the way, the list doesn’t even include LeBron, who’s sitting at a healthy 27.3/6.9/6.6)
Jun 18th, 2008
Josh in DC
I don’t think the best NBA players could be identified by a statistical comparison. Larry Bird’s Game Six in the 1986 NBA Finals, statistically, was terrific. But watching the game, you’d think he was literally everywhere.
Jun 18th, 2008
James love the Supersonics.
Good article. I just have one question. What year was that “Why the Seattle Mariners are going to win it all” magazine?
Jun 18th, 2008
Mike
I’ve maintained that point of view since I first saw Kobe start playing. He’s great and all… but he’s nowhere near Jordanesque. Jordan commanded the floor like Kobe never will. Michael didn’t come off screens and set up for 4 alley-oops a game like Kobe does. He took the ball and made his defender cross his legs and drove past him to the hoop better than anyone ever has or will. As soon as the double came, Michael would find ways to split them and still drop in a wide open layup. He’d drive to the hoop and when a third defender came to help, he’d find Pippen waiting for an open jumper, or Paxson, or Kerr, or Tony Kukoc. I never saw Jordan come out of the game and sit on the bench. I never saw Jordan throw a tirade or a fit. I never heard news reports of Jordan raping a woman and buying his wife a 944 million dollar rock to make up for it.
Michael was class. He competed and respected everyone, even after he proved they were below his talent level. You’d look at his stat lines in the paper the next morning and see only 6 assists and you’d think “I’m sure he made more plays than that” and he did. If basketball rewarded secondary assists like the NHL does, I’m sure Jordan would’ve averaged a double double a game.
I wasn’t even a Bulls fan growing up, but as soon as the playoffs hit, I knew the Knicks were going to run into either Zo and the Heat or Michael and the Bulls.
Kobe Bryant will never be Michael Jordan. I’d rather say Iverson is the next Jordan and that’s completely unbelievable.
Jun 18th, 2008
Windier E. Megatons
Couldn’t agree more. Kobe is far less effective than Jordan and that’s with foul rules in place that help him. Jordan would have averaged 40 under today’s rules.
Just one question, though, and I don’t mean to get all picky, but - is Jordan really an athlete of your “childhood”? He’s 45, so if you’re in your early 40s…
Jun 18th, 2008
Noel
For the people who compare Kobe favorably to Jordan, I wonder if (in their minds) they’re comparing Kobe in his prime to Jordan after his 1st retirement.
That Jordan was still a great player but he relied more on posting up guards and using the turnaround fallback jump shot. The Jordan from, say, 1986-1993 was a ridiculous force of nature. He could drive on anyone and get in the paint any time.
I also would like to think - although we’ll never know since he didn’t play with a Shaq - that Jordan wouldn’t have minded who got the credit as long as they won. I would like to think that winning was the most important thing. It certainly was for Bird and Magic, and I think the same goes for Tim Duncan. Kobe seems to want to win AND get all the credit.
Jun 18th, 2008
Cory
It’s funny, if Kobe has a fantastic series, this conversation is flipped.
That’s all it would take. One good series.
But given the fact of how the Lakers were catastrophically embarassed last night, everyone is hatin’ on Kobe. Specifically Kobe. Yeah, the Lakers are in the conversation. But it’s all about Kobe. Yeah, sure, you can say “Jordan wouldn’t have ever disgraced himself like that.” Really? You’re sure of that? Did Jordan play in this game? Did Jordan witness this firsthand?
Who the hell knows what would have happened. We can speculate. “Oh sure, Jordan is better than that.” In all honestly, that’s laughable, too. Okay, so the Lakers lost by 40 some points. Does that give you the right to say, undeniably, that Kobe isn’t comparable to Jordan now?
What happens next year if Kobe wins it all? Do you flip-flop? Does Kobe bring all this hoopla up at press conferences and say “Media sucks. Get a life.” No, that won’t happen. It should, but it won’t.
The fact is, this era of basketball won’t ever have a three-peat champion again. It just isn’t in the cards. Kobe will play the next 10-12 years — knock on wood. Maybe he gets three more championships, maybe he doesn’t. But he won’t get them consecutively. It’s just too tough. With Lebron, T-Mac, CP3, Collective teams like the Spurs and Pistons, Suns, Bulls and Celtics, this era just won’t have it.
I was 10 years old when MJ started his initial run. I didn’t understand basketball all that much then. I was just a kid. I didn’t read into stats; I didn’t analyze things or compare players like pundits do so often. I just watched the game and saw good players. To me, MJ was good. Now that I’m older, I see the same with Kobe.
I say he’s just as good as MJ, if not a better player. Maybe MJ is given more respect because of his tenacity. Because of his fire and marketability. But maybe he just played in the right era. Or maybe he defined that era. I don’t know.
I just know that Kobe, sans no one, will ever individually define this era. Kobe ain’t alone. He’s got Lebron. He’s got Melo. He’s got Wade. They’re all comparable to Jordan in some way.
So don’t be an old man, don’t have this unwavering pantheon, don’t say that Jordan was the best ever and that no one will ever come close, especially Kobe.
Kobe is the best right now, maybe the best ever. Hold the right to undeniably compare him to Jordan once his career is over. There are too many years left.
Jun 18th, 2008
Joe M.
Kobe’s fans whine as much as Kobe does.
Jun 18th, 2008
Josh in DC
Why won’t we have a 3-peat champion again?
Jun 18th, 2008
Creston
This argument - that Kobe is just as good as Michael Jordan - generally comes out of LA, from sad Lakers fans. They haven’t yet had the guts to declare him better than Michael Jordan. All they’d go to is he is “just as good.”
I never liked Michael Jordan. I think Michael Jordan was a man so pathetically obsessed with winning he’d do anything and everything to win, including cheating, as your stopping Kobe Bryant cold, this argument has forever been tabled. There have been NBA columnists who have said “This argument is now closed,” and they were some of the biggest proponents of the whole theory.
But it’s kind of the American way, isn’t it? Everything NOW that belong to us is better than everything that went before and belongs to them. OUR cheeseburgers are better than their cheeseburgers! THIS Patriots team is better than any other NFL team that ever played!
Magic Johnson said something really cool during an interview once. “I think we’ll see another Michael Jordan some day. But we’ll never see another Larry Bird.”
Jun 18th, 2008
Creston
“But if John Candy was American, it’d be pretty close. Maybe he didn’t free the slaves, but he was stunning as Barf in Spaceballs.”
“What’s your name?”
“Barf!”
“Your full name?”
“Barfolomew!”
God I love Spaceballs.
Jun 18th, 2008
SBG
I was 10 years old when MJ started his initial run. I didn’t understand basketball all that much then. I was just a kid.
This might explain why you can still sit there and say that Kobe > MJ.
Jun 18th, 2008
Creston
“to me, the moment that turned the Kobe v. Jordan debate into a non-issue wasn’t tonight’s no-show in game 6. Instead, it was the Lakers monumental collapse in game 4.”
And even that isn’t when this debate should have been over. It should have been over after his petulant whiny pouting in game 7 against the Suns two years ago, when he refused to shoot and watched his team be destroyed.
Do you think Jordan EVER would have lost a game on purpose just to prove a point?
Ofcourse, a short while later everyone forgot about that, and lo and behold, the “Kobe is as good as Jordan” talk came back.
Next year the Lakers will be a very good team, Kobe will have a stretch where he’ll score 40 points 8 times in 10 games, and the “He’s just as good as Michael!” yapping will come out again. Everyone will have forgotten about the spanking that Boston handed out to him and how poor he played this series.
“With today’s rules, Jordan would have AVERAGED 81.”
No kidding. If someone even LOOKS at Kobe Bryant he’ll get the foul now. Jordan would take 100 free throws a game with these rules.
Jun 18th, 2008
Creston
“Jordan vs. LeBron? That gets more interesting.
Personally I think LeBron is the best 23 year old basketball player I’ve ever seen.”
LeBron is amazingly gifted when it comes to offense, but he’s not even in the same league defensively. We tend to forget that Michael was also simply the most dominant defender (as a guard) on the floor.
Jun 18th, 2008
Creston
“What happens next year if Kobe wins it all? Do you flip-flop?”
No. Kobe needs to win next year, and in 2010, and in 2011. And win by being the absolutely most unstoppable player on the floor. Then we can reopen the discussion. If he then retires, comes back after 18 months and wins ANOTHER three titles in a row, we’ll call him just as good as Jordan.
It’s funny how people will STILL say Kobe is the best player on the planet when he got totally schooled by Paul Pierce.
Jun 18th, 2008
Creston
“The fact is, this era of basketball won’t ever have a three-peat champion again. It just isn’t in the cards”
The Lakers three-peated on Shaq’s back not that long ago, and if not for a few minute plays, the Spurs might have been looking at five or six titles? I find this a dubious proposition.
Jun 18th, 2008
Creston
“I never liked Michael Jordan. I think Michael Jordan was a man so pathetically obsessed with winning he’d do anything and everything to win, including cheating, as your stopping Kobe Bryant cold, this argument has forever been tabled. There have been NBA columnists who have said “This argument is now closed,” and they were some of the biggest proponents of the whole theory.”
That got kind of mangled there. Not sure what happened. In any case, I think Michael Jordan was a man so obsessed with winning, that he didn’t even care about cheating to do so, as your blue dot story from a few entries ago shows. I think Michael probably would have been on steroids if they’d been shows to have any beneficial effect for basketball players. (he might have taken greenies.)
But after every analyst in the country was yelling furiously about how “BOSTON CAN’T STOP KOBE BRYANT!!!!” and Boston stopped Kobe Bryant cold most nights, this argument can now forever be tabled.
Or at least until Kobe wins 3 rings without Shaq. I’m going to say he won’t win a single one.
Jun 18th, 2008
Michael
I’m sorry, Cory, but the verdict is already in. Michael Jordan had “IT”. One athlete every couple of centuries has “IT”. Michael Jordan laways answered the bell. He always shined on the biggest stage. Kobe simply hasn’t and doesn’t.
To argue that before it’s all said and done that Kobe might surpass Jordan is to argue that Kobe will morph into a completely different player than he has ever been before. Because Kobe’s skill level, Kobe’s desire, and Kobe’s leadership are all dwarfed by what Michael Jordan brought to the table.
Here’s how I can best sum it up (for me). I’ll never forget the Bulls’ series loss to Orlando in 1995 and the utter shock that I felt when Jordan fell flat in the deciding game, losing the basketball to Nick Anderson (IIRC) to seal the loss. That was the first time that I’d ever seen Jordan fail, and it shocked the hell out of me. Well, he followed that up by three-peating again.
Last night’s performance by Kobe did not surprise me. I have seen his will broken before (see previous post referencing the Suns series). I think Kobe has an amzing amount of basketball skill. But Jordan had more. I think Kobe could turn into a leader. Jordan led like no other. I think Kobe could be the greatest player of his generation. Jordan was the greatest of ANY generation.
So, spare me the lectures regarding how unfair it is to evaluate Kobe against Jordan. It’s low-hanging fruit. Jordan was better. In every aspect of the game.
Jun 18th, 2008
Josh in DC
One athlete every couple of centuries has “IT”.
CENTURIES?
Jun 18th, 2008
Damon Rutherford
At least centuries. Maximus had IT. Hawkeye had IT. Jordan had IT. That’s about IT.
Jun 18th, 2008
stepbaker
I don’t see how anyone can say we won’t ver see a three-peat in the NBA again. The Spurs were pretty close, and if things break a little differently, they win three in a row. The NBA is still more prone to dynasties than any other major sport.
I don’t agree that MJ was “all class”, he was tenacious competitor and often could berate and humilate his teammates with the best of them. Then again, its easy to be considered classy when you’re being compared to Kobe, who I find to be a truly repugnant character. I’m just not a big fan of those who commit sexual assault.
I’m just wondering here, why doesn’t Jim Taylor get any credit in these greatest of all time discussions of running backs. He’s the only player to lead the league in rushing other than Jim Brown when Brown was in the NFL. He was a viscious blocker and could actually catch the ball out of the backfield. He is probably the greatest fullback in NFL history. Yet he’s not even the most hyped guy in his own backfield (Hornung is… and go compare Hornung’s stats to Taylor’s). How is that some guys get the Greatness tag and others don’t?
Jun 18th, 2008
rebmoti
Yeah, I’m not sure. Michael Jordan had a teammate named Scottie Pippen, and I saw no one on the Lakers who can come within 10 miles of that. It must say something for Kobe that he was even able to get to the finals with such a collection of mutts - after all, “King” James only got to the second round with not much less. Of course, it says something about Phil Jackson as well. So Kobe was able to beat a team with three legitimate superstars by himself - I don’t see that as a legitimate means by which to judge him.
Jun 18th, 2008
Tracy
From the awesomest hoop web site around, http://www.basketball-reference.com, grabbing just one stat:
Player Efficiency Rating (career)
1. Michael Jordan 27.91
…
17 Kobe Bryant 23.57
There’s lots more, of course, and it’s Jordan in a landslide.
Jun 18th, 2008
rebmoti
unable to beat, I mean
Jun 18th, 2008
Cory
It’s funny how people will STILL say Kobe is the best player on the planet when he got totally schooled by Paul Pierce.
I disagree. Kobe was beaten by an ENTIRE Celtics cast who had a lights out defensive strategy to stop him. Pierce owned up. So did Allen. And Posey. And Allen. And any other Celtic who put a hand in his face. Being Kobe, he tried to do it ALL himself most times. But if you put Jordan in that situation, same team, same series, do the Celtics still defeat Jordan and the cast? Yes. Every. Single. Time. You don’t beat a defense like that. Not with what the Lakers had. And maybe that’s partly Phil Jackson’s fault. He failed to make the necessary adjustments.
The Lakers three-peated on Shaq’s back not that long ago, and if not for a few minute plays, the Spurs might have been looking at five or six titles? I find this a dubious proposition.
Six years? Not too long ago? Jordan was still having a go at the league in that time. It hasn’t happened since.
Here’s a list of champions since Lakers capped their three-peat in ’02: Spurs (‘03), Pistons (‘04), Spurs (‘05), Heat (‘06), Spurs (‘07), Celtics (’08)…looks like we got a nice EC, Spurs trend going here, right?)
My point was that I doubt a three-peat will come in the next 10-15 years. I didn’t say FOREVER, I just said during Kobe’s time. And if you see that list above, my statement wasn’t erroneous. The Spurs have scattered their trophies every other year. It hasn’t come in bulk, although they’ve won quite a bit.
I think Kobe could be the greatest player of his generation. Jordan was the greatest of ANY generation.
Wasn’t this the intial argument Joe was pointing out — that is, until this series unfolded. How can you make that distinction fairly? I disagree. And I’m not a sour grapes LA resident. I’m from the East Coast, a born and bred 76’ers fan.
I don’t see how anyone can say we won’t ever see a three-peat in the NBA again. The Spurs were pretty close, and if things break a little differently, they win three in a row. The NBA is still more prone to dynasties than any other major sport.
Did they three-peat? NO. Did their championships scatter across a certain time period? YES! That’s my point.
Jun 18th, 2008
Cory
So Kobe was(n’t?) able to beat a team with three legitimate superstars by himself - I don’t see that as a legitimate means by which to judge him.
I think the argument here is that if Jordan was in the same situation, he would defeat all others, using his special Zelda-like powers to overcome the draconian Boston defense.
Jun 18th, 2008
marshmallow
Cory: We already know what happens if you put MJ on a mediocre team and pit them against a defensive stalwart in a seven game series. At least Kobe didn’t have Laimbeer trying to choke him.
Jun 18th, 2008
gogiggs
Kobe Bryant is nowhere near Michael Jordan, or any of the half dozen or so players that were better than Jordan.
Jun 18th, 2008
Nick
Yes, this series would have told the tale on Kobe not being Jordan. Yes, you should have known when Kobe quit against Phoenix a few years back as well.
But the first time that I could tell that Kobe would never get there was the 2004 finals. There is no way on earth the Detroit Pistons should have beat that Lakers team if Kobe didn’t throw that series in a hissy fit. He refused to throw the ball into Shaq on the post, and instead jacked up 20 footers despite shooting about 40% from the field (compared to Shaq’s 59%). Like in Phoenix, Kobe was ready to lose to just prove a point.
Jordan would never lose just to prove a point. The guy was psychotically competitive. I’ve seen Kobe quit on too many occasions. He just doesn’t have it.
Jun 18th, 2008
Justyo
Um, Morgan… #1. I think Joe knows where Candy is from. And that was the point of selecting him. But anyway…
Joaldo - I. Could. Not. Agree. More.
And for those of you trashing Kobe’s “supporting cast” they got through Utah and San Antonio. The point is Jordan would NEVER have allowed those comebacks in the finals - never. Period. Amen.
Jun 18th, 2008
Dave B.
#1) Carling Bassett WAS hotter than Maria Sharapova. Or Kournikova, for that matter.
#2) Toward the end of last night’s rout, something was said to the effect that “Paul Pierce knows Kobe is the best player on the face of the earth…blah, blah, blah…” and my response was: Paul Pierce knows nothing of the sort. If he doesn’t know Kevin Garnett is the best basketball player on the face of the earth, he hasn’t been playing on the same team with him since last October.
Jun 18th, 2008
Dave
Comparing Kobe to Jordan is almost as foolish as trying to make the case that Jordan was as good as Wilt. With one, the NBA changed the rules to stop him, with the other the NBA disregarded rules so he could help rekindle interest in the league.
Jun 18th, 2008
Dave B.
Makes you want to go back and look at Russell vs. Wilt a few more times, doesn’t it?
Jun 18th, 2008
theDAWG
Carling Bassett? Wow! I guess I missed out watching her because I was four at the time…
Jun 18th, 2008
Jeff P.
Kobe was guarding Rondo. Not Pierce. Not Allen. Rondo. No comparison.
Jun 18th, 2008
Andy Sonnanstine's Scruffy Beard
In playoff series between 1985-1993 and 1995-1998 (he wasn’t there in 1994), Michael Jordan’s teams went:
Overall series: 30-7
“Closeout” games (any game where a Bulls win would give them a series win): 30-12
“Elimination” games (any game where a Bulls loss would give them a series loss): 9-7
“Decisive” games (game 5 in a best of 5 or game 7 in a best of 7): 5-2
This includes Jordan’s first 3 years where the Bulls won 1 game in their first 3 series, whereas Kobe’s first 3 trips to the playoffs saw his teams win 5 series and make the conference finals twice. Take those first 3 years away and the record in elimination games becomes 9-4.
Oh, and by the way, Jordan was FAR AND AWAY the best player on his team every year. He NEVER had a Shaq, or even a Pau Gasol. Let’s see Kobe even approach those playoff W-L records…and then we’ll talk.
I’m only 30, so I don’t consider myself an “old man”. Kobe is a great player. So were Ewing, Drexler, Barkley, Mourning, Malone and Stockton. ..and then there was MJ, a level unto himself.
Sort of the way there is Garcia, Mickelson, Els, Singh, all great golfers all…and then there’s Tiger.
Jun 18th, 2008
NickP
“King” James only got to the second round with not much less.
First, Lebron’s supporting cast is terrible compared to Kobe’s, *arguably* the worst supporting cast to get dragged into the playoffs.
Second, you do realize that he *only* got to the second round, because he was beaten in 7 games by the same team that completely obliterated Kobe, right? And that Lebron scored 45 points in the deciding game 7 loss, and didn’t quit or throw up dogcrap 20 footers and go 7-22?
The Kobe is better than Lebron arguments are laughable to me. The MJ = Kobe arguments are obviously much, much worse.
Jun 18th, 2008
Aaron B.
Does anyone know of any studies regarding Jordan’s numbers v. Kobe’s in terms of the context of their times (e.g. league average PPG or something) and their respective teams (teams’ points per 100 possessions or possessions per game or something like that)? It seems to me that Jordan’s dynastic Bulls played at really slow tempos with fewer possessions per game (product of the time) than NBA games have run this decade.
Jun 18th, 2008
Rob
TheDAWG—too bad you were only 4—you missed out on a hot little tennis treat! But that’s OK, I’m sure you still watch the same shows and read the same books you did when you were 4, so it’s all good….
Jun 18th, 2008
Mike
I can’t describe the excitement of reading this, thinking to myself, “Hey John Candy’s not American” then finding the first person in the comments had already mentioned this.
Also to Joe M.” ‘One of the other kids said “You don’t have the intestinal fortitude to be Michael Jordan.’”
I’d love to have been with a bunch of fifth graders discussing intestinal fortitude.
Jun 18th, 2008
Nate
Thanks NickP. That’s what I’ve been trying, LeBron definitely deserves to be thrown into the best current player and you can’t really say it’s hands down Kobe. (For the record, I don’t think any of the current NBA players are anywhere near as good as Jordan… like everyone else says, let me see them dominate for a decade like he did first and then we can have this conversation)… but LeBron did more with less in the 2008 Playoffs than Kobe and pushed the Celtics closer to the edge than any team in the playoffs.
The other thing about LeBron is that even when he isn’t shooting well, like the opening games against the Celtics he still makes his teammates better by drawing in the defense and making terrific passes (I like to think LeBron is what happens when you cross Bo Jackson and Magic Johnson, his style of play isn’t very much like Jordan’s at all)
And for the doubters, check out these articles after the two Cavs - Lakers games this season: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-080128
and http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=071220_windhorst
Jun 18th, 2008
Mitchell Smith
Hey, Cory, so you’re saying because Kobe has Tim Duncan, and Wade, and Melo, and all those guys, it’s tougher? How about the tougher defenses back then, due to rules that made it easier to guard guys like Jordan?
And BTW, Jordan didn’t have, say, Ewing, Olajuwon, Stockton AND Malone, Charles Barkley, Isaiah Thomas AND Joe Dumars, Magic Johnson (for a little bit), and so many other players?
This is a ridiculous conversation. Jordan is incomparable.
Jun 18th, 2008
michael pitts
dear joe thanks for your blog I think you make following good&bad teams fun.I just wanted to (hopefully)inform you of a particulary nasty guitar hero from your neck of the woods.The gentlemans name is Andy McKee.He is incredible,like yourself he is very self effacing but erudite.He can be found on Youtube under “awesome guitar”.As a guitar player who is decent as a lead player,his 2 part melodies and 2 part bass lines blew me away.If you do not take up this banner for this unsung(guitar)hero FROM K.C. I will hunt you down and say “stop,or,I will say stop again” From:a HUGE fan
Jun 18th, 2008
michael pitts
dear joe please give Andy Mckee a try.I do not know your musical tastes,but,I will say you have never heard any like it.In this day and age of “LSD”* *Lead Singer Disease” Most of his work is instrumental and you should definately check out the “harp guitar”in youtube.only if you are a fan of Michael Hedges will you hear such beutiful music.Sorry about ALL grammer spelling but i am a noob to messages and email and type with 2 fingers and 10th grade spelling.forgive me but please let the masses Know about Topekas own Andy Mckee if you dont shed a tear for “for my dad “you are a terminator .I realize you dont do a music blog but i am the same age as you(41?)and with the exception of* The Boss the boss of what N.J. smokestacks?I do find your musical forays funny.I just want a real american idol to get the exsposure he deserves for being 1 a class act2believe it or not you have far more exposure as a GREAT blogger as your column allows you.You and only you can correct this,I hope you read your comments so we will be able to hear my suggestion.Again i apologise for my rookie writing.I dont know how say the things you do but with your thousands of fans i will still get lots of traffic to Andy Mckee so thanks for doing nothing.meant to be ingratiating PS love how you are more personal less K.C. royals.You truly had a s%$##%^&* childhood,but,it made you stronger
Jun 18th, 2008
michael pitts
again i beseech all you joe poz readers to check him out.cmon for crying out loud joes biggest supporters are from the area why isnt this guy selling out? Dont make me (a N.H. native)make him a bigger hit than he is on youtube.I dont mean to hammer the point but i will Please check out andy makee it wont ruin your daughters but it might make popular music enjoyable
Jun 19th, 2008
Old Man Duggan
Damon,
While I don’t actually agree with the Magnum being better than Rockford assertion, I was simply adding it in there because it was awesome and from the 1970’s. Magnum, P.I. began in 1980.
Jun 19th, 2008
michael pitts
how much more fun if….american idol used people with musical talent? Andy mcKee in week 2 done……
Jun 19th, 2008
Old Man Duggan
Antoniomo,
Thank you. Completely in agreement with you.
Jun 19th, 2008
Old Man Duggan
Cory,
The problem was that Kobe didn’t try to do it all himself at times. Any time after the first quarter you had to search to find him because he simply disappeared.
Jun 19th, 2008
JBish
Oh, and by the way, Jordan was FAR AND AWAY the best player on his team every year.
@ Scruffy beard:
Scottie Pippen was one of the best players of all time! I’d MUCH rather have Pip than Pau Gasol. Obviously he was no shaq, but Jordan had one of the best teammates ever… a ridiculous defensive player and an extremely consistent offensive threat, as well as a player perfectly content to play second-fiddle for his entire career (save one petulant moment in the tweener years while Jordan was playing baseball).
Jun 19th, 2008
Sven
Joe - I think the word your looking for is “laughable”
Kobe hasn’t come close to Jordan’s accomplishments. Let’s list the number of times Jordan’s teams lost in the NBA finals.
That was quick.
As a Celtic fan, I got extremely annoyed when the announcers kept referring to Kobe Bryant as the best player on the planet. It felt a lot more like marketing than reporting especially when most of the time, it didn’t look like he was the best player on the floor.
Jun 19th, 2008
CharlesH
I’m not a basketball fan, but I wonder if the Kobe/Jordan comparison, is more along the line of that with which Joe began his post. Perhaps it gets to the flavour of the month syndrome. I’m old enough to remember Earl Campbell and thinking he was unstoppable, and had to be the greatest running back ever, combining speed and power. But there’s always someone around the next corner, not with the precise mix, but with the same mix, that you can think the same thing about. Christian Okoye maybe? OJ before he took up knife play? Hershel Walker? But I’ve also got to say I’m not old enough to have seen Jim Brown live, but you watch some of those old black and white clips and WOW! That guy was amazing. The Incomparable indeed.
Hockey had Bobby Orr and I suspect that other than Wayne Gretzky, there’s nobody else in the same realm with those two (even though I was a Gordie Howe fan). But you’d find people now who would insist that Ovechkin, or Crosby are better than they were. They are still impossibly new to the NHL to really compare, but those who didn’t witness the brilliance of Orr and Gretzky, could easily think the two newbies are better. Don’t think so, but it’ll be compelling to see their careers play out. Isn’t that at least part of why we watch sports? And, at least in baseball, develop neutral stats to get closer to objective comparison of Willie Mays, Ted Williams, Babe Ruth, Barry Bonds and then say that Albert Pujols or A-Rod is better than all of them - or not?
Anyhow, from what little I know of basketball, Kobe is certainly one of the great stars of this era, but even I find it hard to believe he was as great as the little I saw of Jordan who seems to me to have been transcendent in the way Orr and Gretzky were. And the way Brown was.
Jun 19th, 2008
Andy Sonnanstine's Scruffy Beard
JBish-
You’re right; Scottie Pippen was an amazingly consistent offensive force and an absolute defensive bulldog. My comments weren’t meant to slight him in any way, but reading them over again, I can see how they might have come across that way. My bad.
I was just trying to say that there was never a question in Jordan’s entire Bulls career that he was the best player on his team, even as a rookie. Meanwhile, Kobe spent his first 8 seasons often times playing #2 to Shaq’s #1.
Since he became the undisputed “alpha dog” in 2004 with Shaq’s departure, Kobe and the Lakers have: MISSED THE PLAYOFFS ENTIRELY (’05), been bounced out of the first round after having a 3 games to 1 lead (with Kobe pulling the infamous Game 7 tank job) (’06), out of first round again (’07), and made the Finals but lost (’08).
Best player in the league, much less best of all time? Really?
Jun 19th, 2008
arthurB
why is no one mentioning Barry Sanders in the greatest running back of all time debate? i’m not old(21) but i love going back and watching clips of the greats(Jim Brown, Gale Sayers, Walter Payton etc…) and while barry was the only one of those i got to see growing up he retired in his prime and had he stayed in the league just one or two more years he would’ve shattered most running records. As for kobe >= Jordan that will never be the case. Kobe is a great player but personally I don’t even think he’s better than Lebron, given the fact he had one of the most dominant centers of all time and ran him out of town then struggled for three seasons until he got another dominant low post player. Who that has played with Lebron could ever be called dominant?? or even really good haha Big Z is good but not really good yet Lebron took them to the finals last year and lost to the eventual champs this year. Jordan was the best to ever play the game period. He made me want to start playing.
Jun 19th, 2008
G Young
The only reason this is even a discussion is because Kobe physically resembles Jordan, and because his game has some similarities.
As a basketball player, as a member of a basketball team, it is no comparison.
The closer comparison is LeBron, as a player and as a member of a team.
Too often, particularly when describing Kobe as the Best Player on the Planet, people forget basketball is a team game closer to football or soccer than to baseball. Kobe would be a great baseball player, much like A Rod is a great baseball player.
Jun 19th, 2008
JBish
@scruff,
I’m with you. I think Kobe is absurdly overrated. I loved Pip back in the day though, and I don’t know if his career has ever been fully appreciated by the experts or the masses.
Jun 19th, 2008
Alan
I remember Leroy Kelly very well. My dad loved Leroy Kelly. I do not remember Jim Brown.
At his best, Earl Campbell was the best running back I ever saw.
Jun 19th, 2008
Conor
“Michael was class. He competed and respected everyone, even after he proved they were below his talent level.”
Jordan was the best ever, but class? He was probably harder on his teammates than any athlete ever.
Ask Kwame Brown if Jordan respected everyone.
Jun 20th, 2008
Conor
“My point was that I doubt a three-peat will come in the next 10-15 years.”
A big reason for this is because there is no player as good as MJ.
You want to tell me the Jordan Bulls couldn’t three peat in this era?
Jordan beat 4 60 win teams in the finals. The Jazz teams he beat are some of the best teams to lose in the finals. In 96, Seattle won 64 games. In 97, Utah won 64 games. In 98, Utah won 62 games.
I think the funny thing is that, and there are people out there who make this claim, there is no real argument for Kobe over MJ. It’s just stated. Same thing with Kobe as the best player in the planet. It is just stated as a fact, with nothing really to back it up. Why is Kobe as good as MJ? Why is he the best player on the planet? What makes him a better player than Lebron? (Lebron, by the way, is the one guy who has the potential to one day be legitimately mentioned with Jordan. I don’t think he will, of course, but it could happen. Kobe? Never.)
Jun 20th, 2008
BigSliceDave
Kobe being compared to Jordan? Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeee
Kobe doesn’t even win anything with so call “his team” or hasn’t led any team to any title. Until he proves himself that he can win it all, he’s just like any other great players who’s never won anything due to Jordan’s dominance - yeah Barley, malone, Ewing, Drexler- I am talking about you. Although Kobe has three rings but if I was playing with Shaq in his prime I would have got my rings too. All I need to do is throw the ball to Shaq and wait for him to kick it out for wide open shots. Kobe has a few years left and until he can win it all with him leading the team, he’s no MJ, period. And I am just talking about winning alone. Kobe will never match Jordan’s all around basketball IQ and savvy. You see see fear in opponents face when they play against Jordan. Bottom line, Kobe is no MJ. He can’t win like MJ. He can’t dominate like MJ. he can’t talk like MJ. He can’t play mind games like MJ. He can’t use opponents for motivation like MJ. He can’t lead like MJ. He can’t make his teammates better like MJ. So many “He can’t” that would list …So stop the nonsense comparision
Jun 25th, 2008
Derek
MJ compared to KB is laughable at best right now..some say he needs to match the stats, get a few more mvps and 3 more rings…this is still laughable…….if Kobe can get 4 or 5 finals mvps not even matching his Airness..then…maybe then…will all this comparison bs even matter…but until then its “I wanna be like Mike”
Jul 31st, 2008
Derek
the real question is who is the better sidekick/ number 2 player…pippen or kobe…pippen couldn’t do it without mj and kobe hasn’t done it(yet) without shaq..thats a more reasonable question..but please lay to rest the MJ KB crap!!
Jul 31st, 2008
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