<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Banny Days Are Here Again</title>
	<atom:link href="http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/02/banny-days-are-here-again/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/02/banny-days-are-here-again/</link>
	<description>Curiously Long Posts</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 16:16:40 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: McKingford</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/02/banny-days-are-here-again/#comment-18397</link>
		<dc:creator>McKingford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:36:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/02/banny-days-are-here-again/#comment-18397</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;So I do think his days as an MVP candidate, a .340 hitter with 40 doubles and 20 homers are probably over. And at some point, the Yankees are going to have to face up to reality and move him from short&lt;/i&gt;

Where do you move Jeter?  Ugh.

With numbers like .271/.329/.382, he could *only* be valuable as a SS, but since he&#039;s terrible defensively, those numbers don&#039;t even have value there.  Getting that kind of production from a corner outfielder (or heavens, a 1B man) leads to a KC Royals-type offense...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>So I do think his days as an MVP candidate, a .340 hitter with 40 doubles and 20 homers are probably over. And at some point, the Yankees are going to have to face up to reality and move him from short</i></p>
<p>Where do you move Jeter?  Ugh.</p>
<p>With numbers like .271/.329/.382, he could *only* be valuable as a SS, but since he&#8217;s terrible defensively, those numbers don&#8217;t even have value there.  Getting that kind of production from a corner outfielder (or heavens, a 1B man) leads to a KC Royals-type offense&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Richard Dansky</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/02/banny-days-are-here-again/#comment-18075</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Dansky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 22:42:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/02/banny-days-are-here-again/#comment-18075</guid>
		<description>Greg Luzinski. Bob Horner. Greg Kittle. Bob Hamelin. Glenn Davis. Gorman Thomas. All of them had careers that pretty much fell off a cliff in their early thirties, just like Hafner. The list goes on...

The reason we don&#039;t remember it &quot;ever happening before&quot; is that we only remember the superstars. The guys who flamed out fade from memory so we can&#039;t recall their falls from grace. We&#039;re just more attuned to it now because we&#039;re watching more closely, and because we&#039;re lumping guys with old player skills in with guys who are actually, you know, old. 

Blaming everything on steroids is lazy thinking and baseless cheapshotting. Guys are allowed to suck for all sorts of non-pharmaceutical reasons - age, injury, improved scouting reports, loss of a favorite coach or comfortable hitting environment, the discovery of a magical fountain of pie (c.f. Jones, Andrew). At a time when we haven&#039;t even figured out what, if any, effect steroids and HGH have on baseball skills, broad-brush tarring every declining player with the steroids label in the absence of any proof is ridiculous.

Maybe they just like pie.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg Luzinski. Bob Horner. Greg Kittle. Bob Hamelin. Glenn Davis. Gorman Thomas. All of them had careers that pretty much fell off a cliff in their early thirties, just like Hafner. The list goes on&#8230;</p>
<p>The reason we don&#8217;t remember it &#8220;ever happening before&#8221; is that we only remember the superstars. The guys who flamed out fade from memory so we can&#8217;t recall their falls from grace. We&#8217;re just more attuned to it now because we&#8217;re watching more closely, and because we&#8217;re lumping guys with old player skills in with guys who are actually, you know, old. </p>
<p>Blaming everything on steroids is lazy thinking and baseless cheapshotting. Guys are allowed to suck for all sorts of non-pharmaceutical reasons &#8211; age, injury, improved scouting reports, loss of a favorite coach or comfortable hitting environment, the discovery of a magical fountain of pie (c.f. Jones, Andrew). At a time when we haven&#8217;t even figured out what, if any, effect steroids and HGH have on baseball skills, broad-brush tarring every declining player with the steroids label in the absence of any proof is ridiculous.</p>
<p>Maybe they just like pie.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/02/banny-days-are-here-again/#comment-18047</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 19:42:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/02/banny-days-are-here-again/#comment-18047</guid>
		<description>Just a note on Jeter... he was at .314/.349/.429 when he was hit by a pitch on the wrist, and proceeded to go 8 for 47 since then.  This year may not be his drop off year, so much as he was injured by that pitch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a note on Jeter&#8230; he was at .314/.349/.429 when he was hit by a pitch on the wrist, and proceeded to go 8 for 47 since then.  This year may not be his drop off year, so much as he was injured by that pitch.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: sidd finch</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/02/banny-days-are-here-again/#comment-18022</link>
		<dc:creator>sidd finch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 16:58:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/02/banny-days-are-here-again/#comment-18022</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m too lazy to look it up, but I think Hack Wilson was the poster boy for old player syndrome.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m too lazy to look it up, but I think Hack Wilson was the poster boy for old player syndrome.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Aaron M.</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/02/banny-days-are-here-again/#comment-17954</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 04:44:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/02/banny-days-are-here-again/#comment-17954</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m with those of you who think this decline is due to steroids.  I don&#039;t think there is any other way to explain the rapid descent of so many players when this has never happened previously.  I mean sure homers may go down, but these batting averages have fallen off a cliff!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with those of you who think this decline is due to steroids.  I don&#8217;t think there is any other way to explain the rapid descent of so many players when this has never happened previously.  I mean sure homers may go down, but these batting averages have fallen off a cliff!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Richard Dansky</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/02/banny-days-are-here-again/#comment-17931</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Dansky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 03:17:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/02/banny-days-are-here-again/#comment-17931</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s an important distinction between &quot;young players with old player skills&quot;, like, say, Pronk or Jack Cust or suchlike, and guys who are just old, like Sheffield or Kent. Hafner would most likely be starting his decline phase anyway, but the fact that his shoulder is currently made of linguine probably isn&#039;t helping, either. I don&#039;t think steroids are anywhere in most of these particular equations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s an important distinction between &#8220;young players with old player skills&#8221;, like, say, Pronk or Jack Cust or suchlike, and guys who are just old, like Sheffield or Kent. Hafner would most likely be starting his decline phase anyway, but the fact that his shoulder is currently made of linguine probably isn&#8217;t helping, either. I don&#8217;t think steroids are anywhere in most of these particular equations.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Paul White</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/02/banny-days-are-here-again/#comment-17924</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul White</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 00:55:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/02/banny-days-are-here-again/#comment-17924</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t disagree with the &quot;old player skills&quot; argument in general, but I think you picked a couple of unfortunate examples, Joe.  For instance, citing Brunansky and then claiming that his rapid decline wasn&#039;t atypical of someone with his skills doesn&#039;t quite hold water.  Take the guys listed as having the highest career Similarity Scores to Brunansky.  Here are their OPS+ marks starting at age 31, the same age as Brunansky&#039;s last good season:

Frank Thomas (no, not that one) - 85, 121, 118, 104, 102, 70
Deron Johson - 112, 135, 84, 108, 57, 92
Ben Oglivie - 153, 107, 118, 129, 100, 117
Jeff Burroughs - 145, 107, 96, 114, retired
Jeromy Burnitz - 106, 119, 80, 105, 121, 94
Larry Parrish - 102, 128, 112, 73, retired
Bill Nicholson - 95, 123, 124, 99, 101, 114
Doug DeCinces - 149, 126, 109, 105, 112, 95
Jim Wynn - 107, 151, 133, 108, 46, retired
Bobby Thomson - 98, 94, 90, 116, 92, 93

As you can see, most of these guys played with a respectable level of productivity well past the point where Brunansky&#039;s career fell apart.  Only three retired early, as Brunansky did, but all three maintained at least league-average production well after Brunansky lost it.  I&#039;m not saying that a fall like Brunansky&#039;s is completely unheard of; a couple of guys who were similar to Brunansky through age 31, like Johnny Callison and Greg Luzinski, were finished by age 34 too.  But those guys and Brunansky really are pretty atypical.  Most guys with those skills see a decline in productivity, as you mentioned, but they don&#039;t completely lose the ability to play before turning 34, like Brunansky did.  He was atypical.

And while Hafner is certainly a classic candidate to suffer Old Player Syndrome, he&#039;s pretty atypical too.  None of the guys who had the most similar careers to Hafner through age 30 suffered such a drastic decline as he has at such an early age:

&lt;b&gt;OPS+ marks starting at age 31:&lt;/b&gt;
Jim Gentile - 125, 107, retired
Dick Stuart - 118, 101, 97, retired
Brian Giles - 177, 145, 145, 128, 146...you get the idea
Dolph Camilli - 138, 145, 147, 165...you get the idea
Gus Zernial - 99, 115, 99, 104, 130, 79
Tony Clark - 100, 95, 154, 60, 103, 83
Bob Johnson - 147, 141, 155, 129, and so on
Moose Skowron - 115, 60, 108, 116, 98, 55
Trot Nixon - 109, 96, 78, retired?
Andre Thornton - 94, 137, 123, 132, 94, 99

See?  Not a lot of guys in that group dropping from a 179 OPS+ to 85 within two seasons, and certainly not as young as age 31.  Sure, some of them fizzled out early, but none of them cracked off three straight seasons with OPS+ marks of 162 or better, either.  Hafner&#039;s drop-off is so sharp that if it&#039;s due to nothing more than having old player skills, than it&#039;s possibly the most drastic and sudden fall of its kind in baseball history.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t disagree with the &#8220;old player skills&#8221; argument in general, but I think you picked a couple of unfortunate examples, Joe.  For instance, citing Brunansky and then claiming that his rapid decline wasn&#8217;t atypical of someone with his skills doesn&#8217;t quite hold water.  Take the guys listed as having the highest career Similarity Scores to Brunansky.  Here are their OPS+ marks starting at age 31, the same age as Brunansky&#8217;s last good season:</p>
<p>Frank Thomas (no, not that one) &#8211; 85, 121, 118, 104, 102, 70<br />
Deron Johson &#8211; 112, 135, 84, 108, 57, 92<br />
Ben Oglivie &#8211; 153, 107, 118, 129, 100, 117<br />
Jeff Burroughs &#8211; 145, 107, 96, 114, retired<br />
Jeromy Burnitz &#8211; 106, 119, 80, 105, 121, 94<br />
Larry Parrish &#8211; 102, 128, 112, 73, retired<br />
Bill Nicholson &#8211; 95, 123, 124, 99, 101, 114<br />
Doug DeCinces &#8211; 149, 126, 109, 105, 112, 95<br />
Jim Wynn &#8211; 107, 151, 133, 108, 46, retired<br />
Bobby Thomson &#8211; 98, 94, 90, 116, 92, 93</p>
<p>As you can see, most of these guys played with a respectable level of productivity well past the point where Brunansky&#8217;s career fell apart.  Only three retired early, as Brunansky did, but all three maintained at least league-average production well after Brunansky lost it.  I&#8217;m not saying that a fall like Brunansky&#8217;s is completely unheard of; a couple of guys who were similar to Brunansky through age 31, like Johnny Callison and Greg Luzinski, were finished by age 34 too.  But those guys and Brunansky really are pretty atypical.  Most guys with those skills see a decline in productivity, as you mentioned, but they don&#8217;t completely lose the ability to play before turning 34, like Brunansky did.  He was atypical.</p>
<p>And while Hafner is certainly a classic candidate to suffer Old Player Syndrome, he&#8217;s pretty atypical too.  None of the guys who had the most similar careers to Hafner through age 30 suffered such a drastic decline as he has at such an early age:</p>
<p><b>OPS+ marks starting at age 31:</b><br />
Jim Gentile &#8211; 125, 107, retired<br />
Dick Stuart &#8211; 118, 101, 97, retired<br />
Brian Giles &#8211; 177, 145, 145, 128, 146&#8230;you get the idea<br />
Dolph Camilli &#8211; 138, 145, 147, 165&#8230;you get the idea<br />
Gus Zernial &#8211; 99, 115, 99, 104, 130, 79<br />
Tony Clark &#8211; 100, 95, 154, 60, 103, 83<br />
Bob Johnson &#8211; 147, 141, 155, 129, and so on<br />
Moose Skowron &#8211; 115, 60, 108, 116, 98, 55<br />
Trot Nixon &#8211; 109, 96, 78, retired?<br />
Andre Thornton &#8211; 94, 137, 123, 132, 94, 99</p>
<p>See?  Not a lot of guys in that group dropping from a 179 OPS+ to 85 within two seasons, and certainly not as young as age 31.  Sure, some of them fizzled out early, but none of them cracked off three straight seasons with OPS+ marks of 162 or better, either.  Hafner&#8217;s drop-off is so sharp that if it&#8217;s due to nothing more than having old player skills, than it&#8217;s possibly the most drastic and sudden fall of its kind in baseball history.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: john Liotta</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/02/banny-days-are-here-again/#comment-17922</link>
		<dc:creator>john Liotta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 00:03:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/02/banny-days-are-here-again/#comment-17922</guid>
		<description>Joe, I know this many posts ago but Chipper just waved Tex and Frenchy to third and second respectively ala Jeter.  It was rough, Tex was wondering about his contract (Boras was in the stands talking to Cashman on one phone and and Minaya on the other) and Frenchy was wondering why his average was so low even though he was walking more. Of course the Braves didn&#039;t turn Chipper&#039;s play into a run, Mac got hit by a pitch next and then there was a deep fly out.  But Jeter Jones, I mean Chipper was awesome.  At doing his job.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe, I know this many posts ago but Chipper just waved Tex and Frenchy to third and second respectively ala Jeter.  It was rough, Tex was wondering about his contract (Boras was in the stands talking to Cashman on one phone and and Minaya on the other) and Frenchy was wondering why his average was so low even though he was walking more. Of course the Braves didn&#8217;t turn Chipper&#8217;s play into a run, Mac got hit by a pitch next and then there was a deep fly out.  But Jeter Jones, I mean Chipper was awesome.  At doing his job.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Justyo</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/02/banny-days-are-here-again/#comment-17915</link>
		<dc:creator>Justyo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 21:34:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/02/banny-days-are-here-again/#comment-17915</guid>
		<description>A bit off track but here goes... 

Sometimes I think - let&#039;em use steroids. The fact is there is little to NO evidence that adults 21-35 who use steroids and other PED&#039;s under the close guidance of people who know what they&#039;re doing (BALCO) develop serious health issues. Just agressively test in High School and NCAA so at least we know our pro athletes did have some God given talent to rise to the top of that amateur level. 

This pro-roid voice loved the McGwire / Sosa home run show and the super human Barry and watching players I like perform well into their later years. Hell, I even like imagining my childhood faves and old school players like - Rose, Yaz, Rice, Ruth, Aaron, Mays - and what kind of numbers and games would they have put up if they had the Balco chemists working with them. Ruth on &#039;Roids? Aaron on Roids? 920 HR&#039;s?

And just now I had a thought - oh no - is baseball going to return to the 70&#039;s era of Mark Belangers and Denny Doyle&#039;s and 30 home runs as a &quot;monster&quot; year and George Foster hitting 50 is like a cosmic happening. Because honestly, I like offense in the game. Don&#039;t get me wrong, I love a shut-out and a pitcher&#039;s duel but seeing a home-run as often as Haley&#039;s comet is not my idea of a great past time.

And then there&#039;s another voice. And it&#039;s a bit louder and easier to hear saying, what are you nuts? It&#039;s gotta be clean, it&#039;s gotta be an even playing field, records need to have a standard of integrity but I wonder... Is this really practical? 

Is hoping our pro sports become and remain perfectly clean forever sort of like the &#039;war on drugs&#039; in general... Futile? Are we all just Sisyphus, pushing the rock up the mountain over and over and over again...?

Maybe we ought to let&#039;em do what they want with their bodies and sit back and enjoy the show?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A bit off track but here goes&#8230; </p>
<p>Sometimes I think &#8211; let&#8217;em use steroids. The fact is there is little to NO evidence that adults 21-35 who use steroids and other PED&#8217;s under the close guidance of people who know what they&#8217;re doing (BALCO) develop serious health issues. Just agressively test in High School and NCAA so at least we know our pro athletes did have some God given talent to rise to the top of that amateur level. </p>
<p>This pro-roid voice loved the McGwire / Sosa home run show and the super human Barry and watching players I like perform well into their later years. Hell, I even like imagining my childhood faves and old school players like &#8211; Rose, Yaz, Rice, Ruth, Aaron, Mays &#8211; and what kind of numbers and games would they have put up if they had the Balco chemists working with them. Ruth on &#8216;Roids? Aaron on Roids? 920 HR&#8217;s?</p>
<p>And just now I had a thought &#8211; oh no &#8211; is baseball going to return to the 70&#8217;s era of Mark Belangers and Denny Doyle&#8217;s and 30 home runs as a &#8220;monster&#8221; year and George Foster hitting 50 is like a cosmic happening. Because honestly, I like offense in the game. Don&#8217;t get me wrong, I love a shut-out and a pitcher&#8217;s duel but seeing a home-run as often as Haley&#8217;s comet is not my idea of a great past time.</p>
<p>And then there&#8217;s another voice. And it&#8217;s a bit louder and easier to hear saying, what are you nuts? It&#8217;s gotta be clean, it&#8217;s gotta be an even playing field, records need to have a standard of integrity but I wonder&#8230; Is this really practical? </p>
<p>Is hoping our pro sports become and remain perfectly clean forever sort of like the &#8216;war on drugs&#8217; in general&#8230; Futile? Are we all just Sisyphus, pushing the rock up the mountain over and over and over again&#8230;?</p>
<p>Maybe we ought to let&#8217;em do what they want with their bodies and sit back and enjoy the show?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: wally</title>
		<link>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/02/banny-days-are-here-again/#comment-17914</link>
		<dc:creator>wally</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 21:32:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/02/banny-days-are-here-again/#comment-17914</guid>
		<description>&quot;have forgotten how to find free nudes&quot;

HAHA, but seriously, how horrible this world will be when/if I reach old-man computer skills and can&#039;t find free nudes...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;have forgotten how to find free nudes&#8221;</p>
<p>HAHA, but seriously, how horrible this world will be when/if I reach old-man computer skills and can&#8217;t find free nudes&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
<!-- WP Super Cache is installed but broken. The path to wp-cache-phase1.php in wp-content/advanced-cache.php must be fixed! -->