OK, so Royals general manager Dayton Moore showed me this fun little game you can play with your team. It begins with a scouting question: How many 60 tools does your team have?
I probably don’t need to explain that concept to the brilliant readership of this blog* but, I will. As you know, scouts judge players’ tools (hitting, power, speed, defense, arm) on that famed 20-80 scale, which as I understand it goes like this:
20 — Sucks beyond belief. Travis Hafner’s defense would be a 20. Barely knows which glove goes on which hand. Tony Pena Jr. is a 20 hitter. Bengie Molina is a 20 runner. Jason Kendall has 20 power. Andie McDowell is a 20 actress. Carrottop is a 20 comedian. Roger Clemens is a 20 liar. And so on.
30 — Just plain sucks. Johnny Damon’s arm might be a 30. It’s a 20 on the strength scale — it’s ASTONISHING how weak his arm is — but I’d say it’s a 30 overall because he is usually accurate with it at least.
40 — Doesn’t suck, but is still a tick below average. I’d say Kevin Youkilis is a 40 runner. Maybe Jermaine Dye. Maybe someone in between them.
50 — Exactly major league average. In 2005, Brandon Inge had almost the perfect 50 season. He hit .261/.330/.419 with 16 home runs, he stole seven bases and was caught six times, he had a .957 fielding percentage which was precisely the league average, and so on.
60 — All-Star Level. Placido Polanco is probably a 60 hitter. I think that Carlos Beltran — when healthy and engaged — has 60 power and 60 speed.
70 — Above All-Star Level. This is the superstar category. Lance Berkman has 70 power. Torii Hunter is (or certainly was — I don’t know if he’s fallen off at all) a 70 center fielder. Jose Reyes has 70 speed.
80 — Superhuman. There are scouts that just won’t give the 80 to anyone. An 80 would be — Albert Pujols or Ted Williams would be an 80 hitter. Mickey Mantle or Big Head Barry would have 80 power. Cool Papa Bell would be an 80 runner. Roberto may have had the only 80 outfield arm in baseball history (though Ellis Valentine should be heard). Ozzie at short, Mays in center, JB behind the plate are 80 defenders.
*Sorry to go off on this bloggy tangent, but I don’t know if you saw this list of the most valuable sports blogs. Our little site did not make the list, which is not surprising since, as I may have mentioned, I have so far made precisely $0.00 from this blog (have you bought this book yet? Well, have you?). On the other hand, of course, I had to look up the presumed value of this site, and as it turns out … it should have been on the list. According to DN Scoop — and if you can’t trust DN Scoop, who can you trust? — this site is worth $37,900 (and rising!). I appreciate this isn’t exactly the $16 million that Deadspin is worth but … where do I cash that check? Could that buy me a good ice cream maker?
ANYWAY, to play the Dayton Game you simply go through your lineup and count how many 60 (or better) tools you have. Remember: We’re not talking here about 60 players — just tools. For instance, I think we would probably all agree that Juan Pierre is a well below average baseball player. But he certainly has 60 speed. So you would count that tool (however, if you call Juan a 60 hitter … you are disqualified from playing this game).
To give you an example, I’ll go through the Royals lineup because, as you will see, it won’t take long.
60 Tools on the Kansas City Royals
1. Joey Gathright’s speed.
2. Tony Pena’s defense.
And … no, that’s it. Two. That’s all. There are two All-Star tools on the Kansas City Royals. There isn’t anyone on the Royals who has All-Star caliber power. Could Alex Gordon develop that? Maybe. There isn’t an All-Star caliber hitter on the team — I think Billy Butler projects to be a 60 hitter, but he was just sent down to the minor leagues*, and my personal charge Mark Teahen is just not getting there. Nobody has a 60 arm on this team — Jose Guillen has a very strong arm, but it’s more erratic than Amy Winehouse. Teahen’s arm is accurate and probably above average, but not a 60. Nobody except Pena comes close to playing 60 defense in my mind — heck, Pena might not play 60 defense either, but he’s close enough and we need SOMETHING to talk about here. Mark Grudzielanek won a Gold Glove and has a good arm for a second baseman, but I don’t think he’s a 60 defender. Maybe a 55.
*And rightfully so. I’ve heard from some people who think the Royals are using Billy as a scapegoat and they’re hurting his future. I could not disagree more. I’m as big a Butler fan as anyone, I’m very bullish on his future, but one thing I’ve really grown tired of over the last few years is seeing the Royals treat young players like they’re on scholarship. The Royals thought — I thought — that he was ready to be an impact hitter in the big leagues. He got off to a hot start. But then he had his first sustained big league slump, and he has not handled it well at all — since April 24 he’s hitting .223/.293/.286. It’s that slugging number that is particularly daunting — I haven’t seen him hit a ball hard in weeks. I’ve thought this for a few days now — send Billy to the minors, let him get his head straight, let him get some more experience playing first, and assuming he has the mental toughness he needs, he should be back and better.
Nobody on the Royals except Gathright has 60 speed — in fact, I’m not sure there is anyone else on the team who has 50 speed. It’s funny, here in town people sometimes talk about David DeJesus running more — apparently because he’s a leadoff hitter — and they don’t take into account that he’s freaking slow*. I asked one baseball insider what it would take for DeJesus to steal more bases, and he said, “Move the bases closer together.” Mark Teahen is a superior base runner, and he cuts the bases well so that he’s above average first to third. But he’s not fast. Even the middle infielders on the Royals who look like they might be fast are, in fact, plodders — Tony Pena, Grud, Alberto Callaspo come to mind. It’s funny, just the other day we were trying to rate the Royals fastest runners, and here’s the Top 10 we came up with:
1. Joey Gathright.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6. Mark Teahen
7. Esteban German.
8. Miguel Olivo (yeah).
9.
10. David DeJesus or Alex Gordon — doesn’t matter.
*Minnesota’s Kevin Slowey threw a 101-pitch, complete-game gem against the Royals on Monday, and he looked very good, but the whole game I could not help but think how the Royals were getting dominated by a pitcher named “Slowey.” Is he the most comically named pitcher in the game today? Slowey. I wrote in my column that after Slowey stomped the Royals, their only hope is to face a pitcher called “Clyde Hangingcurvey.” … Historically, I thought Bob Walk was unfortunately named because he really didn’t walk that many. Horace Speed was quite slow, Phil Paine never threw more than 73 1/3 innings, and Mel Harder really threw softer — he only struck out 100 batters in a season once in his 223-win career. Brilliant Reader ErnieAdams, one word, points out another great one: David Riske coming out of the pen.
Yes, we’re all over the map today, but the point is that when you play the Dayton Game with the Royals you come up with two All Star tools. On the whole team. I mean that’s really, really depressing. A lot of people — even people here in town — talk about how the 1985 Kansas City Royals were one of weakest hitting World Series champs (and, as far as talent, probably the fifth or sixth best Royals team ever). But play the Dayton Game with them, and you might be surprised.
60 Tools on the 1985 Kansas City Royals
1. Jim Sundberg’s defense.
2. Steve Balboni’s power.
3. Frank White’s defense.
4. George Brett’s hitting.
5. George Brett’s power.
6. George Brett’s defense (won a deserved Gold Glove that year)
7. Lonnie Smith’s speed.
8. Willie Wilson’s speed.
9. Willie Wilson’s defense (hard for me to say … I wasn’t watching them every day).
Point is that while they did finish 13th in the league in runs scored, that team was not without a few tools.
Unfortunately, I don’t have the time or energy to go through all the other teams — I figure you will do that with your favorite squad — but just for comparison’s sake, here’s a quick run through on the Boston Red Sox:
60 Tools on the Boston Red Sox
1. Jacob Ellsbury’s speed.
2. Dustin Pedroia’s hitting — OK, I’m basing this on last year’s .325/.380 line. I’m more than willing to knock him off the list.
3. Papi’s hitting.
4. Papi’s power.
5. MannyBManny’s hitting.
6. MannyBManny’s power.
7. MannyBManny’s comic prowess.
8. Kevin Youkilis’ hitting.
9. Kevin Youkilis’ defense (I don’t know if a first baseman can rate a 60 defensively, but he’s good)
10. J.D. Drew’s defense
11. Mike Lowell’s something or … yeah, there are a lot more on the Red Sox. So, you know what? Never mind, I’ve got a book to write, and I’m already depressed enough with the Royals.
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96 Comments, Comment or Ping
Tom
Are you kidding me? Andie MacDowell is NOT a 20 actress! She’s great! Sure, no oscar winner, people love Andie MacDowell! She was Julia Roberts before Julia Roberts! You could have picked someone who is actually bad, like, Kate Hudson, or Tara Reid.
Second, as far as power outfield arms go, where’s Ichiro, and where’s Ankiel? 70?
I’d also rate Jeter’s “intangible-ness” at around 80. Right?
May 30th, 2008
sidd finch
Dustin Pedroia’s defense is better than his hitting. Wow, 11 on the Red Sox, and you didn’t even get to the pitching staff.
I guess the Royals are even worse off than I supposed.
May 30th, 2008
sidd finch
Ankiel’s arm is at least a 70. I’m amazed that runners try anything on him. I thought that Dave Parker had an 80 arm, and Dewey Evans was not far behind.
May 30th, 2008
will
According to the DN Scoop data I should be pulling in 11K with my blog which is 10.9K more than I’ve gotten for it so far.
To be fair I did propose to my wife through my blog so that is probably worth something.
May 30th, 2008
ErnieAdams
David Riske out of the bullpen is my personal favorite for unfortunate names.
Joe wants some of that Internet money, just like Steven Abootman.
May 30th, 2008
nomar34
Dustin Pedroia? Really?
May 30th, 2008
BobDD
There’s some 60’s on the pitching staff. But the depressing part is to look for the potential 60’s in the lineup, and it surprised me how few there are. Maybe we’re not as good as I’d been thinking (hoping).
May 30th, 2008
Erik
Carlos Gomez has 70 speed and a 70+ arm. He has a freaking cannon. And 30 baseball instincts. Yet he’s hitting .293 with 22RBI from the leadoff spot. And, Gomez is an 80+ on the comedic scale. When/if he figures things out… he’ll be significantly better than Torii.
May 30th, 2008
Ryan
I like Grant Bal(l)four and Homer Bailey as good names for pitchers, but they’re both in AAA at the moment.
May 30th, 2008
Jon
Nah.. I’d say J.J. Putz is the most comically named pitcher. Of course, you have to bend the rules a bit and refuse to ‘correctly’ pronounce it as “puts”.
May 30th, 2008
AMR
Ryan,
I was gonna mention Balfour!
Because of his name, I probably overemphasized his walks when he debuted with the Twins.
May 30th, 2008
BillP
Andie McDowell was (still is) beautiful, but is a 20 actress like I have a 20 fastball (it tops out at about 60 mph): there’s just no point in putting her on the scale. Likeable doesn’t mean good.
I’d also put Gomez’ baseball instincts (and just plain old intelligence, from everything that can be observed on the field) at 20. How many times does a guy have to be told not to bunt with two strikes before he figures out that he shouldn’t bunt with two strikes? (And if Gardy isn’t telling him that just about every time he goes up there, he’s even dumber than Gleeman and I think he is…)
May 30th, 2008
Chris
Cards 60 Tools:
Albert - Hitting
Albert - Power
Albert - Defense
Yadi - Arm
Yadi - Defense
Ankiel - Arm
Izturis - Defense
Barton - Speed
I think that’s it. Ankiel “could” have 60 power and 60 Defense (his ZR stats are great this year) , I prefer to wait and see.
Chris Duncan is a 20 fielder.
May 30th, 2008
sidd finch
Mets 60+ tools
Carlos Beltran - speed
Carlos Beltran - defense
Carlos Beltran - power
Endy Chavez - speed
Endy Chavez - defense
Endy Chavez - arm
Moises Alou - hitting
David Wright - Power
David Wright - speed
Jose Reyes - speed
Ryan Church - defense
It’s really too bad that Moises keeps getting hurt.
May 30th, 2008
SMK
The Marlins have a pitcher named Badenhop, but he’s only allowed 2 unearned runs this season so the name doesn’t quite fit.
May 30th, 2008
Carl Spackler
It is a little depressing that Dayton Moore discussed this game. You would think he would try to follow it once and a while.
May 30th, 2008
Ryan V.
Tom,
Derek Jeter’s “intangible-ness” is clearly a 110. And his soul-penetrating gaze is nearly as impressive at a 95.
May 30th, 2008
D. Moriarity
Isn’t it interesting how the rise of sabremetrics also raised our knowledge of scouting? I don’t think anyone know that scouts rated players on a 20-80 scale until Moneyball came out.
Now there’s just more knowledge in general about how team’s evaluate players. And the 20-80 scale is helpful for most of us, because we can’t really scout a player. But if we’re told that someone has an 80 arm and someone else has a 20, that makes sense.
May 30th, 2008
Mike
I’m not sure, but I hear you’ve been in Cincinnati recently. Something about a book.
Anyway, I’m pretty sure Homer Bailey has to be the worst name for a pitcher.
At least the worst name for a 1st round draft pick, top pitching prospect.
May 30th, 2008
Steve Buffum
Indians 60+ tools:
Sizemore’s speed
Gutierrez’ arm
V. Martinez hitting
A. Cabrera defense
That’s not good.
May 30th, 2008
Larry
Since we’re all going to name 60+ tools for our teams, here goes — and Mets guy, are we talking about this year or past seasons, because Alou would not be an All-Star hitter and Beltran does not have All-Star Power.
Twins 60+ tools
Carlos Gomez - speecd
Carlos Gomez - arm
Michael Cuddyer - arm
Delmon Young - arm (nobody should run on that outfield, too bad delmon/cuddy can’t catch)
Joe Mauer - hitting
Joe Mauer - defense
Joe Mauer - arm
Justin Morneau - hitting
Justin Morneau - power
Then I think you could put Alexi Casilla for speed and Nick Punto for defense, but it drops significantly afterwards…
May 30th, 2008
Carl Spackler
Royals tools:
David DeJesus
Mark Grudzielanek
Alex Gordon
Jose Guillen
Alex Gordon
Ross Gload
John Buck
Tony Pena Jr.
I just used a different definition of tool, but they all qualify.
May 30th, 2008
Corey
The best pitcher name in pro baseball now, and, possibly, of all time is Josh Outman, for the AA Reading Phillies.
May 30th, 2008
thrillho
I agree with others that Grant Balfour is the tops for a pitchers name.
Carlos Gomez is an 80 on the entertaining me during and after games, especially after. And “the catcher” is a 60 hitting and defense. And “the other guy” has a 60 arm.
May 30th, 2008
Justin
Just to ease your mind I bought your book yesterday. So that’s 16.95 or whatever kind of percentage you’re making for each copy sold. I bought it mostly because when I think, my thoughts sound like your writing, but also because Buck O’Neil is one of my favorite baseball personalities of all time. I plan on kicking back and reading it this weekend, thanks for the material, keep plugging out this stuff and I’ll keep on reading it!
May 30th, 2008
Brian
I think we should extend the 20-80 scale to all aspects of life (like Andie McDowell).
Drew Carey is a 50 game show host.
Dick Pole has an 80 name.
The Office is an 80 show.
Skinemax “actresses” have 80 bodies and 20 faces.
It could sweep the nation.
May 30th, 2008
Jb
7. MannyBManny’s cosmic prowess.
Fixed.
May 30th, 2008
Justin
Some more royals tools I can think of
1) Zack Greinke’s fastball
Luke Hochevar’s sinker (when he figures it out)
2) Zack Greinke’s curveball
4) Zack Greinke’s slider
5) Zack Greinke’s changeup
6) Zack Greinke’s anti-anxiety meds
7) Joakim Soria (nuff’ said)
Add those to your list and you have ten. The blues have some tremendous pitching talent on the team and that shouldn’t be overlooked. Although pitching can’t win without offense it is definitely the harder commodity to come by these days.
May 30th, 2008
Sal
I find it hard to say Pena is a 60 glove when his fielding percentage and range factor are below league average for a SS.
May 30th, 2008
Ross
All right… I’ll bite and try the Cubs.
1. Soriano power
2. Soriano speed (when healthy)
3. D Lee power
4. D Lee hitting
5. A Ramirez power
6. A Ramirez hitting
7. Soto power
8. Soto hitting
9. Fukudome hitting
10. Fukudome defense
Not bad, don’t believe Theriot and Cedeno can keep hitting like they are but if they keep this up we’ll add them to the list, Pie is probably a 60 defense and speed but that doesn’t help much in the minors.
off topic…
Dick Trickle is an 80 sports name
Kate Hudson in a 75 beauty and a 40 actress
Pearl Jam is an 80
The Office is a 80
Seinfeld is an 80
My golf game is usually a 50 was a 20 last night
oh yeah and I have to argue with Sidd finch… David Wright 60 speed??, a 60 baserunner sure
May 30th, 2008
Mikey
This topic kinda reminds me of the controversial “championship caliber guys” discussion earlier this year, where we got into the merits of having a wealth of good players versus having a handful of great players.
Similar thing here. If you went through and counted up each teams 60 tools and each teams 70 tools, what’s going to have a greater correlation to winning? I think its probably having more 60s.
May 30th, 2008
Mikey
Off-topic but hopefully interesting to some of you:
If you’re politically inclined, there is an amazing site called fivethirtyeight.com where the author brilliantly tracks and breaks down polling data.
Why do I mention this here? Because until today the author of the site has remained anonymous. Today he outted himself, and it turns out to be Nate Silver of BP! WOW!
I’ve been reading 538 religiously and I really thought the author had to be a guy who made his living in political polling. The analysis is that good. It’s amazing that it’s coming from a guy whose day job is writing about baseball. I’m kind of in awe.
May 30th, 2008
John M.
You’re wrong about Billy Butler. See, this is why the Royals will NEVER win in our lifetime - although Butler was slumping in the Bigs, there was no reason to think he won’t turn that around. Why not be a little patient with the guy? What do they have to lose at this point? He can hit. His BB/K ratio is 19/26 and somehow he’s the odd man out on that team? He qualifies as a potential breakout player for the second half. Just show a little patience for once, KC.
May 30th, 2008
gogiggs
For the Indians, I’d say Sizemore and Guttierez have 60 defense, in addition to those already listed.
May 30th, 2008
Brian
I’d say the Indians have a lot of tools. Of course I am a White Sox fan. Bah dum bum.
May 30th, 2008
Josh in DC
Early Wynn won 300 games, most of them after he turned 30.
May 30th, 2008
Mike Williams
Good thing plate discipline isn’t a “tool” by itself; then your article would ask how many Royals are a “20″.
1 walk drawn in the last 37 innings, 2 in the last 67 innings.
Read that again, Joe. Reverse it (67 IP 2 BB), and you would think you were looking at the best control pitcher in the history of the game…
May 30th, 2008
Mark LaFlamme
Mark Grudzielaniek’s scowl has got to be a 70. Dude scowls even when he gets on base.
May 30th, 2008
Minda
Mike - Every pitcher the Royals have faced in the last 11 days is a Cy Young candidate. Haven’t you noticed that? So naturally, none of them would be walking anyone, Royals or otherwise.
May 30th, 2008
Tucker
As a Red Sox fan I can tell you that J.D. Drew is not a 60 defender. Coco is a 60-70 defender, but Drew is a 50 defender. Youk’s beard is a 60, and Tek is a 70 game caller.
I think you exaggerate the rarity of 70-80 tools a bit, although I guess because there is rarity if you look for consensus on those it will be rarer than a number of scouts who like a player saying he has a 70 or 80 tool. In pitching from what I’ve read scouts think that a SP needs to have at least two pitches that are 60s and closers need to have a 70-80 pitch. So if you count pitchers you’re allowed to count Greinke, Hochever, and Soria’s stuff and Banny’s ‘pitchability’. But you have some seriously mediocre everyday players.
May 30th, 2008
Mark LaFlamme
I just think it’s fun to say “tool” over and over.
May 30th, 2008
Justin
Reds Tools:
Griffey’s hitting
Phillips’ defense
Dunn’s power
Dusty Baker
And speaking of innapropriate names for pitchers, what about john smiley?
http://bp3.blogger.com/_Ix7ERv8-F34/R7KWKb3SpUI/AAAAAAAAACo/iABVymqRKmM/s1600-h/Smiley88.jpg
May 30th, 2008
Mike C
OK, enough already. I bought the book a few weeks ago (I was the one who posted Amazon had it very cheap).
Here’s how to get the ice cream maker and they aren’t very expensive…
http://www.icecreamprofessional.com/comm-ice-cream.php
May 30th, 2008
Rob Moore
I don’t watch Johnny Damon throw that often, but there’s no way his arm could be worse than Juan Pierre’s. I witnessed this in person last year at Dodger Stadium - I saw a not particularly speedy guy tag up from third on a fly ball to shallow center field. Juan threw a lollipop to home - a serious rainbow. If that ball was going from home plate to the outfield, Vin Scully would have called it a can of corn. Needless to say, there was no play at the plate. It was shocking. I bet on a given day there are 50 men in the crowd that could throw it better than he can.
May 30th, 2008
Dan
JD Drew is absolutely a 60 defender. “Exactly major league average”? Only if you feel compelled to grade on a curve that reflects his contract.
Lowell is a 60 on defense.
Lugo is a 10.
I would definitely give Youk a 60 on hitting and defense.
Crisp is easily a 60 on defense and speed.
Papelbon’s fastball and split are 60s
Beckett’s fastball and curve are 60s.
Justin Masterson’s sinker is a 60.
Okajima’s changeup is a 60.
Buchholz curve and changeup are 60s
May 30th, 2008
Creston
Zack Greinke’s fastball is a 60, maybe even a 70. Not sure what scouts would give him now, but it has to be a 60.
Brian Bannister’s Coolness/Geekness is an 80. Though that might contribute little to winning games.
Also, nobody has ever explained to me why the scale goes from 20 to 80? Is it just because everybody else uses (or would have used) zero to 100, and we needed to be different again?
May 30th, 2008
Creston
Btw, it’s nice that Dayton Moore showed you that game, but uhhmmm… He’s the GM! Who exactly is to blame for a team having 2 guys with a 60, and those 2 60s are pretty worthless since the guys they’re attached to shouldn’t be in the Major Leagues in the first place?
I remember how excited everyone was when Dayton Moore took over. I’m guessing that excitement has pretty much evaporated?
May 30th, 2008
Creston
What’s kind of intriguing is that my favorite team, the Cardinals, have this :
1) Albert Pujols’ power
Yadier Molina’s funny name.
2) Albert Pujols’ hitting for average
3) Albert Pujols’ defense
4) Albert Pujols is on the team
5) Albert Pujols
6) Did I mention Albert Pujols?
7) Yadier Molina’s defense
9) Ehhh….
10) Maybe Chris Perez’ fastball, but he’s pitched all of 5 innings, so let’s not start building the statue next to Stan Musial just yet.
And yet they’re 10 games over .500. Ah, to have a pathetically easy schedule.
May 30th, 2008
Creston
oh, someone mentioned Ankiel’s arm. That’s true. It’s very strong, so that’s a 60. He’s not exactly the most accurate with it, but overall it’ll still be a 60.
So that’s
Ankiel’s Arm
Yadi’s defense
Albert Pujols x 6.
Sounds like a recipe for a championship to me!
May 30th, 2008
Creston
“‘Derek Jeter’s “intangible-ness” is clearly a 110. And his soul-penetrating gaze is nearly as impressive at a 95.”
I would rate his calm eyes a 110 too. Maybe a 111, just because that looks cool.
May 30th, 2008
Sam
If “40″ is slightly below average, then why is “60″ all-star level? Slightly above average wouldn’t be all-star level…
If Joey Gathright only has “60″ speed, then:
1) It’s impossible to have 80 speed
2) The scale is a bit too difficult on the top end
3) Most people are being a bit too generous in giving out the 60-80’s.
May 30th, 2008
Oddibe Kerfeld
This comment board is exploding! Joe, you’ve created a juggernaut of a blog.
You need to go back to numbering the comments so that its easy to find one after you come back to the site.
May 30th, 2008
Josh in DC
I’d just like to say you have to see Derek Jeter’s eyes every day to truly appreciate how calm they are.
May 30th, 2008
john halder
just wanted to say how painful it is that you no life losers admire and worship overpaid, steroid eating narscisstic scumbags
May 30th, 2008
Erik Hahmann
A worse name that Slowey has to be Balfour doesn’t it? It’s basically Ball-four. He’s a pitcher. That can’t be good.
May 30th, 2008
Brigadier Pudding
Braves 60+ tools:
Chipper Jones - hitting
Chipper Jones - power
Brian McCann - hitting
Brian McCann - power
Mark Teixeira - hitting
Mark Teixeira - power
Jeff Francoeur - arm
Yunel Escobar - arm
Yunel Escobar - defense
May 30th, 2008
Steve
Roger Clemen only a 20 liar? He’s a gold medal winning liar - definitely an 80!
May 30th, 2008
Perry
I was going to do the Cardinals, but Chris (1) did them and (2) wrote exactly what I would have, so I’ll do the Rockies, since I live here and see them a lot.
1. Holliday’s power
2. Holliday’s hitting
3. Taveras’s speed
4. Tulo’s defense
5. Tulo’s arm
6. Tulo’s hitting, I think, although it may be too soon to tell. Terrific for a 22-y-o last year, but off to a terrible start this year and now injured.
7. Helton’s hitting, although the power’s gone and he may be on the verge of washed up.
8. Helton’s defense.
Hawpe’s arm would get a 60 for strength but he’s not that accurate.
May 30th, 2008
Jeremy
Okay, as a deranged Giants fan, I have to jump in here…
(Sticking to the Five Tools, which means leaving out the pitchers)
Fred Lewis’ speed
Emmanuel Burriss’ speed
Omar Vizquel’s glove?
Aaron Rowand’s hitting?
I’m not sure that Omar’s defense is still 60, but it might be. I’m not sure Rowand has been a 60 hitter long enough to be statistically significant - I know Bengie Molina hasn’t.
May 30th, 2008
Steve
Astros, by the 5 tools:
Hitting (solid contact/average):
Berkman
Lee
Tejada
Pence
Power:
Berkman
Lee
Speed:
Bourn
Matsui
Defense (fielding/range):
(maybe Bourn or Matsui)
Arm:
(maybe Tejada?)
May 30th, 2008
Justyo
Quick… Name three players with 5 tools at a 60. Making him a ‘Spartan’ (A “300″ or better player.)
Spartans…
C. Beltran
H. Ramirez
J. Rollins
May 30th, 2008
John E
My favorite pitcher name has always been Eric Plunk although he only lived up to his name 32 times in 14 seasons.
May 30th, 2008
Brad, Grand Rapids
Isn’t Reichert German for “Hanging Slider”?
May 30th, 2008
Andy Sonnanstine's Scruffy Beard
On the “funny sports names” topic: from around 2001-04, the Blackhawks had a backup goaltender named Steve “Let Pucks” Passmore.
I want to twiddle with Ross’ Cubs list a little:
Hitting:
D. Lee
A. Ramirez
K. Fukudome
R. Theriot (he hit .300 in ‘06, .290-something last year, and is over .300 this year. He’s also probably our best “situational” hitter.)
Power:
Soriano
D. Lee
Ramirez
Soto
Speed:
F. Pie (when he’s around)
R. Cedeno (maybe)
The Cubs have a good amount of 50-55 speed that shows up mostly on defense and 1st-3rds (Theriot, Fontenot, R. Johnson, Edmonds, Fukudome, D.Lee) but not a lot of actual burners. Soriano should be nowhere near this list anymore.
Defense:
Edmonds
Fukudome (he’s a treat to watch in RF)
D. Lee (I know what the numbers say, but after watching him for 4+ years I have time believing it. He scoops/stretches/picks at least 100 errant throws a season. Ramirez would have 30 errors a season throwing to an “average” 1B)
Arm:
Fukudome (teams have drastically halted running on him)
Soriano
Soto
I’m going to buy the book this weekend, and I’d also be willing to chip in $5 to a PayPal account to buy Joe an ice-cream machine for the amount of enjoyment this blog has given us.
May 30th, 2008
Chicago
OK, Ross and Mr. Sonnanstine’s Beard tried the Cubs, but I just can’t help myself. While the notion of this becoming a Cubs comment section probably makes Poz sick, here’s what I came up with:
Hitting/Contact: Derrek Lee, Kosuke Fukodome, Ryan Theriot
Power: Alfonso Soriano, Derrek Lee, Aramis Ramirez, Geovany Soto
Speed: 0, maybe Fukudome. Pie when he’s around, of course.
Fielding: Derrek Lee, Ronny Cedeno
Arm: Kosuke Fukoudome
Also, as a Chicago person that likes both teams, here’s an attempt at the White Sox:
Hitting/Contact: Carlos Quentin
Power: Carlos Quentin, Jermaine Dye, Jim Thome. Maybe: Swisher, Konerko, Crede.
Speed: Alexei Ramirez
Fielding: Orlando Cabrera, Joe Crede
Arm: Orlando Cabrera
May 30th, 2008
gogiggs
Re: the “300″
I just don’t see it.
Beltran hasn’t had a batting average over .276 since 2003.
Rollins had good power numbers last year and decent power numbers the year before, but he’s never batted .300 in a full season, only topped .500 slg. once and this year he’s on about a 15 homer pace. He’s a very good hitter for a shortstop, but I had the impression this game didn’t take position into account.
Hanley Ramirez is by all accounts a horrible, horrible fielder.
May 30th, 2008
gogiggs
Alex Rodriguez, on the other hand, is 300+.
May 30th, 2008
Inigo Montoya
The ONLY thing Andi McDowell ever added to a film was great hair. She has to be the worst actress I’ve ever seen who wasn’t being intentionally stilted. Awful. Could never figure out how she kept getting such good gigs.
I’m thinking Ankiel’s arm is an 80. Easy.
May 30th, 2008
Wade
I’ve heard/read in a couple different places that Bo Jackson was graded @ 400. Joe, any truth to this?
May 30th, 2008
Huskergut
Love this post. You should do a similar analysis of the pitching staff, which would be a lot more encouraging. As bad as they are right now, I still like the pitching. And pitching’s harder to find than hitting, which means the Royals might not be that far away.
Having already said I’m encouraged by the pitching, I should point out — and sorry if this sounds bitter — but I really hope the scout who told you Tomko would win 18 games this year has been fired by whatever team he worked for. And I hope he lost his house and got his car repossesed. And also that his wife cheated on him.
May 30th, 2008
Daniel
Orioles:
Brian Roberts’ speed
…
Nick Markakis defense
Nick Markakis arm
Adam Jones defense
Adam Jones arm
It’s clear why the team is doing so well in turning flyballs into outs, but can’t seem to score much. I still think Nick’s hitting will make the list, but not the way he’s going right now
May 30th, 2008
TimB
A name that was strangely appropriate was Scott Bullett.
May 30th, 2008
JeffSol
In terms of 80 OF arms, I can’t see Parker at all, who was vastly overrated. Valentine’s was great, although it was more impressive than effective in most years. Never seen anyone who could throw the ball from the warning track to home like he did, but that’s not all that useful , and it always seemed like it took him too long to uncork those big throws. For my money, Jesse Barfield was the best arm of that generation — had at least 10 assists each year over 80 games and most years over 15.
May 31st, 2008
JeffSol
As much as I hate to admit this, I have to disagree with the Carrot Top rating. I live in Vegas and was at a benefit a year or two ago that he performed at. I was all set to hate him, but the man is funny…absolutely nuts, but funny.
By the way, the discussion of names — Slowey, Harder, etc. reminded me of a classic Bill James passage from an early Abstract. It was, I think, the Frank White comment. Bill commented on how names so often obscure, rather than reveal, the truth. Well, I can probably look this up, so hold on a minute…Here it is, from the 1983 Abstract…
“Did you ever notice that players named “White” are almost always black, and players named “Black” are usually white? Why is that? The last White major leaguer who was actually white was Mike White, who played for Houston in the early sixties. Since then we’ve had Bill White, Roy White, Frank White and Jerry White, all of whom were black; Mike White probably would have been black except that his father played in the majors in the thirties and they didn’t allow you to be black then. The Royals also had a Black on their roster, Bud, who of course is white; in fact, the Royals had to set some sort of record by having four colored people on their team. White, Black, Blue and Brown. Scott Brown is not any browner than anybody else, Vida is definitely not blue, nor for that matter is Darryl Motley. I suppose that it is the nature of names, as with Peacekeeping Missiles and Security Police, to disguise the truth more often than they reveal it. Horace Speed stole only four bases in his career, Vic Power was a singles hitter, Bill Goodenough was not good enough, and Joe Blong did not belong for long.”
One of my favorite passages of many in the series…
May 31st, 2008
Ryan
Joe, honestly, the whining about you getting nothing from your blog is tiring. If you want money just set up a PayPal donation and I’m sure you’ll get some. I personally bought a copy of the Buck O’Neill book even though I have never read it, and I’ll probably do the same with the Reds book. I wouldn’t have without your Blog.
May 31st, 2008
Paul White
“just wanted to say how painful it is that you no life losers admire and worship overpaid, steroid eating narscisstic scumbags”
Joe, you know your blog has made it when it attracts a comment from the loony “steroid eating narscisstic (sic) scumbag” guy. It’s a badge of honor. Kudos.
May 31st, 2008
Eric J
OK, just one more post about the “Best Angel” poll and then I’ll leave it alone… if you’re voting for “best baseball player ever who happened to play for the Angels,” Carew is the right choice among the players listed in the poll. Of course, the right choice out of everyone who played for the Angels is Frank Robinson.
May 31st, 2008
NickP
Reds:
Speed: Phillips, Freel
Contact: Keppinger
Power: Phillips, Dunn
Glove: Phillips
Arm: –
May 31st, 2008
Justyo
Carlos Beltran 2006 -
41 Hr / 116 rbi / 23 steals (85% suucesss)/ .388 OBP / 150 OPS+ / .995 fielding percentage. 2 errors in 136 games / 13 outfield assists / Gold Glove / All-Star.
Yes, he may not have hit over .276 since 2003 (his batting average was .275 in ‘06) but I say so what? The man had 303 total bases.
‘07 wasn’t so far off that. We’ll see this year.
I’d say that’s a “300″ player - and then some. But what do I know?
May 31st, 2008
Steve
I’d say that’s a “300? player - and then some. But what do I know?
One should never mistake “5-tool” players for simply meaning “great all-around.” The fact that Beltran had all those TB while hitting just .275 is a testament to his power. A 60 contact hitter could probably hit .275 without hitting for power or having any speed to help him along.
Barry Bonds was the best all-around player of this past generation, but he was never a 5-tool player in the “60+ for five tools” sense, because his arm wasn’t any better than 45-50.
I think it would be interesting to find people who were one-tool players (meaning they are above 60 in one tool but 40 or below in the other four) and see which one tool is the rarest to sustain a guy for a decent length career. I think fielding and power hitting are the best tools for a long career, followed by speed. A good arm is probably the least useful without other tools, unless you’re a catcher. But it seems pretty rare to find a one-tool contact guy with a long career. I guess you could find career pinch-hitter types, like Lenny Harris or Orlando Palmeiro, but both of those guys had average speed when they were still capable of hitting .280-.300.
The one guy I can think of is Tony Eusebio. He had no speed (probably about a 15), little power (maybe 35 in a good year), was kind of an awkward catcher, and didn’t throw out runners that well (but he might have been a 50 arm).
May 31st, 2008
Ross
Wade Boggs it seems to me was a 1 tool guy (contact) although I can’t say I’m familiar with how good a defensive player he was considered.
May 31st, 2008
Steve
Boggs was one tool most of his career, I guess, since he was below average as a fielder for the first part of his career. He did win a Gold Glove or two, I think, toward the end of his career. I don’t know if he deserved them, but he was definitely improved.
May 31st, 2008
David Wintheiser
Larry has a decent list of Twins 60 tools, but I disagree with his characterization of Gomez’s arm as a 60 — he gets good mustard on his throws because he heaves with all his might and his speed lets him get some good momentum before throwing, but his accuracy is all over the place. He’ll be a much better defensive outfielder when he learns to throw under control, by which time it’ll be obvious that his actual arm strength is average or maybe a bit above average — 52 at best.
May 31st, 2008
Morgan
As far as the one tool players go, Mark Belanger leaps to mind, though I don’t know about his arm.
Dave Kingman also, though he was before my time just a tick too. Adam Dunn seems to have fallen into this group too, or is his arm still decent?
I’m a little confused about the use of the grading scales. I always was under the impression that the “tools” were more of physical attributes, not the ability to utilize them in a game, or how well one utilizes them from year to year. So, for example on the Mets, Carlos Delgado still has at least 60 power, he just isn’t using it much right now, but when he does hit it far, far it goes. So Moises Alou should qualify for power and average, even though he’s only played about a week. And if guys on the DL count, than Anderson Hernandez’s glove, aw heck…
Brian Schneider - Defense
Ramon Castro - Power (debatable)
Luis Castillo - Defense (70 is Gold Glove, he probably isn’t that anymore, but he’s above average)
Anderson Hernandez - Defense
Jose Reyes - Speed (he’s above 60 for sure, but I believe the criteria for this is at least 60)
Jose Reyes - Arm
David Wright - Hitting
David Wright - Power
David Wright - Defense (his throwing is the source of most of his errors)
Carlos Delgado - Power
Moises Alou - Hitting
Moises Alou - Power
Carlos Beltran - Defense
Carlos Beltran - Speed
Carlos Beltran - Power
Endy Chavez - Defense
Endy Chavez - Speed
Endy Chavez - Arm
Ryan Church - Defense (someone else earlier posted this one, and I’ll buy it)
Not all tools are equal, as Endy seems to have 3 legit claims to this game’s list, and yet can’t crack the everyday lineup. But as power seems to be a tool that would trump a lack of other’s, I would say Endy is more valuable than, say Wily Mo Pena, who has to be at least a 60 on a scouts rating, but has yet to have it translate into the big league game.
And here’s the Yankees, just ’cause I can’t sleep.
Jason Giambi - Power
Derek Jeter - Hitting
Alex Rodriguez - All of’em
Bobby Abreu - Speed
Bobby Abreu - Arm
Bobby Abreu - Hitting
Robinson Cano - Hitting (this year so far, not so much)
Melky Cabrera - Defense
Hideki Matsui - Hitting
Jun 1st, 2008
Pat
If you had no one better than Dick Pole to run out there every five days, you were screwed. Dude had no cheese and was all over the place. His ERA was huge.
Jun 1st, 2008
gogiggs
Justyo, I mean no disrespect to Carlos Beltran. I love Carlos Beltran. Five years ago, I’d have taken him over anybody except probably A-Rod and Pujols. Heck, I actually did. I played 4 fantasy teams that year and I picked Beltran in the first round for all 4 (and ended up with 3 firsts and a third).
However, as I understand it, the five tools in the Dayton game are hitting for average, hitting for power, speed, defense and arm. Over the last 4 seasons Beltran’s batting averages were: .267, .266, .275, .276. That’s not a 60 rating for hitting for average. That’s a solid 50. Do his other attributes make him a great player despite his average average? Absolutely! But that wasn’t the question you proposed. The question you proposed was, who are guys that rate a 60 in every category? Beltran, clearly doesn’t.
Jun 1st, 2008
Vin
I’ve always had a couple of problems with the so-called five tools. First of all, patience really should be a tool. Maybe it can be taught, so it isn’t as useful for scouts looking at a 17-year-old, but if we’re evaluating big leaguers, you gotta put patience in the mix. And why is arm separate from defense? I know you can have a bad arm and be a good defender, and visa versa, but I always thought of arm as being a part of the total defensive package. It certainly isn’t important enough to merit its own category. So I say that you replace arm with patience, and the real five tools are hitting, power, patience, speed and defense.
Another point about the 20-80 scale. Its cool and all, but it totally ignores that there is a lot of room between league-average and All-Star. Especially considering that 40 represents below average, shouldn’t there be a number for above average, but not quite all-star? I’m gonna call it 55.
Some of the debates about the Mets could be settled by using 55. I think David Wright has 55 speed - he’s clearly better than average, but he’s not gonna make any All-Star teams because of it. Beltran’s a 55 hitter, with 60 power, 70 patience, and 60 defense and speed. Delgado’s power is a 55, though at this point everything else he does is like a 30. I’d say Alou is still a 60 hitter, but it doesn’t really matter seeing as he never actually plays (10 health, if they can give that). Ryan Church has 60 defense and 55 power. And so on.
I’d start talking about regular life now, but that may just go on for too long.
Jun 1st, 2008
Dan
“MannyBManny’s comic prowess.”
darn. I laughed out loud. Really loud. And the family’s sleeping, ya jerk.
Good post, though.
Jun 2nd, 2008
Matt
Been reading this blog for about 8 months now and I have encountered several humorous pieces from time to time. However, “Clyde Hangingcurvey” puts them all to shame. Laugh-out-loud funny. You’ve outdone yourself once again, Joe. That very well could be the catalyst for me buying your book.
ps GO CARDS!!!
Jun 2nd, 2008
Creston
“And why is arm separate from defense? I know you can have a bad arm and be a good defender, and visa versa, but I always thought of arm as being a part of the total defensive package”
Because it’s an important consideration in determining where a guy should play. You can be Ozzie Smith in the outfield, but if you have absolutely no arm, you have no business being in Center or Right Field. (which is why the Yankees finally realized that Damon was costing them big time in Center Field).
Same thing for an infielder. Scott Rolen has great defense (I’m guessing 70) and ALSO a cannon of an arm (60). If he was a 70/40, he wouldn’t be playing third base.
David Eckstein, ofcourse, has a 30 arm, and people still put him at shortstop.
As far as patience, I agree that that SHOULD be a tool, but this is all old school stuff, and in old school baseball, walks are dirty.
{Dusty Baker}
They call it fielding and hitting, not fielding and walking, do they?!
{/Dusty Baker}
Some people here are assigning 60s like they are candy. Really Morgan? 19 60s on the Mets? NINETEEN? :O
Jun 2nd, 2008
Whitey Herzog
1985 Royals:
World Series Roster
Don Denkinger, 80
Jun 5th, 2008
Mark P
Toronto Blue Jays….
Johnny Mac’s glove
Scott Rolen’s glove
Scott Rolen’s contact hitting
Alex Rios’ arm
Alex Rios’ power (theoretically…)
Lyle Overbay’s contact hitting
Vernon Wells’ glove
Vernon Wells’ power (theoretically…)
Jun 22nd, 2008
Reply to “The Dayton Game”