Joe Posnanski

In the same game that Jeter dove into the stands to make a catch, I’m convinced that the Red Sox shortstop made a similar and even better play. But Jeter’s was considered one of Hercules’ feats, while the other catch was barely replayed. The fact that I don’t even remember which Boston player caught it (Renteria? Cabrera?) explains the difference in how Jeter is treated.

Speaking of Tim McCarver, did anybody see the Boston/Milwaukee game last week when he tried to say Jim Rice was a better player than Ted Williams?

I mean, Jim Rice was a very good player, no doubt. But let’s not get silly here.

Mind of Mencia: “Something utterly not funny.”

This is so true.

I’m a Brit, and live in England. Two years ago, my partner and I stayed with avery good (English) friend of mine and his American wife in the Bay Area. Now, these are lovely people — intelligent, informed, articulate, cultured, every thing you’d want.

And they recommended Mind Of Mencia to us, as a genuinely funny show. So we watched it. And we just sat there opened mouthed at the sheer unadulterated appallingness of it. Out of politeness, we might have laughed sporadically, but largely it was just slack jawed amazement.

Then we watched the Colbert Report, and we were able to put the whole thing behind us.

Then we went to the Home Opener at Oakland, and Jim Thome hit a ball to left centre* that I still don’t think has landed yet, and everything was right with world again.

* That’s centre (see, told you I was a Brit)

I am so amused by this whole Jeter / Yankee saga. He is the most stone faced, stoic - OK, boring “leader” of men I have seen. For all his hitting I would take 30% of George Brett over Jeter. Does he make the players around him better? Does he inspire? How much did he defend Torre? I would argue, outside of those two plays Aaron mentions above - Jeter beats Abreau in the MGBPIBH.

It’s funny how the Yankees MUST keep up this aura around the “Captain” and Jeterate left and right. As if the moment the shine comes off of their .317 hitting demi-God the franchise really would look like a LAST PLACE team.

The fact that they keep A-Rod at 3rd to leave Jeter to kick around balls with his .5 fielding win shares this year is laughable. I think that move, of playing arguably the best player out of position to accommodate Jeter has helped to guild this God-like image.

Sure, I like him as a hitter, a tough an out as they come but… Well, consider this…

A) .328 / .415 / 443 - 130 ops+
B) .317 / .387 / .461 - 121 ops+

Player B is Jeter… Player A, is the one guy Jeter has always reminded me of… Wade Boggs.

I had the same thoughts during the rundown. By listening on the radio you missed Jeter’s impassioned waving of the players to 2nd and 3rd. It was as if he wanted to make sure everyone knew what he was trying to do, the runners, who should know, the crowd, the announcers.

And it did the trick. Not one moment was spent on the question of Jeter being being caught of 3rd. He died on the basepaths so that other runners could live, and advance. It was comical.

In the same game that Jeter dove into the stands to make a catch, I’m convinced that the Red Sox shortstop made a similar and even better play.

That was Pokey Reese and it indeed was a better catch than Jeters. Jeter caught the ball and continued into the stands. Pokey went into the stands as he caught the ball. Yet even a red sox dvd of the season calls Jeter’s catch the “play of the game”.

Lets not forget the ultimate bit of Jeterating: when athletes are praised for their high moral character because they have never been arrested.

Should we call up the pope and nominate them for sainthood?

Of course we also have to mention the Derek Jeter of the NFL, Tedy Bruschi; half-man, half-god, half- possible centaur.

As an Orioles fan, I am essentially required by law to dislike Derek Jeter, and I follow the rules.

However, I would respect him much more as a player if it wasn’t for the phenomenon you describe.

I remember when he got his 2,000th hit, and being completely shocked. Not because he isn’t good enough to get to that milestone, but because I had spent so long naturally discounting everything said about him that I had essentially forgotten what a great player he really is.

I still don’t like him, and believe he is the most overrated player, possibly in baseball history, but I have come to respect his play more as time goes on.

(Ick…I feel dirty even typing that.)

Very funny article.
Jeter is beloved in NY because he arrived just as the latest Yankee dynasty emerged and was a big part of it. From the start he was exceptionally media savvy, recognizing that anything beyond bland responses to the press was stupid in NY and so he stayed above the idiocy of the hype there and let others do it for him. In a sense he was like DiMaggio in that by staying quiet he created a mystique that writers could turn into a regular story line.

I remember after one early NY championship victory, the on-field reporter tried to intercept Jeter who answered very pleasantly but finally said he was looking for his parents in the stands. It was really quite charming and guileless and for me cemented an image that, true or not, is very positive.

joe — great stuff as always. i’m a yankee fan, but not such a blind one that i can’t see jeter is a below-average defender. however, i will suggest you watch the replay (a few times) of the rundown you referred to. it really was a very good baseball play. given where the ball was hit and where jeter had his lead, jeter made something out of nothing. or at least he turned a negative into a neutral. in any event, he’s certainly not god but that particular example was actually some good baserunning.

Joe—LOVED that post! I am honestly a very Anti-Jeter fan, and while it has little to do with what happens between the white lines, it has EXACTLY to do with the phenomenon you brought to the masses today (and of course the blind loyalty the bandwagon jumping Yanks fans of the late 90’s brought to the table as well). He has been very lucky/fortunate that a couple of his most clutch plays have been on VERY large National stages, and that goodwill derived from those plays have followed him since. If you ever want to read an interesting account of the Play where Jeter dove in the stands, take a poke in the Stephen King book of his account of the 2004 Red Sox “Faithful,” where he talks about how it may be the most foolish and overblown play in baseball history (I am paraphrasing this, mind you), it’s worth a look, and pretty humorous. I just think I lost all my respect of which I DID had some for Jeter, when he was so selfish when the Yanks went and got ARod, and didn’t defer to Alex’s superior skills at short, and went to 3rd or the Outfield himself. I think that decision is a good portion of the karmic reasoning why the Yankees will never win another Ring with Jeter at shortstop—which of course works like a charm for me….

Also, I should add that I believe much of the overpraise of Jeter stems from insecurity on the part of his team and his fans, since Jeter is no longer the best player or even the best shortstop on his own team. Since the day that the Yankees acquired ARod, Jeter has been faced with the unpleasant prospect of ARod’s superiority in every facet of the game. ARod is the better hitter, and the better fielder, and even after he graciously agreed to move to third base in order to allow a lesser player to stay at shortstop, that insecurity has never gone away. And the fans know it, and the team knows it, and they overcompensate by Jetering Jeter at every opportunity, even to the absurd extremes Joe notes above.

The fact that the captain and supposed leader of the team is willing to allow the club to be arranged in a worse defensive alignment because he doesn’t want to move should be a mark against Jeter. But no one seems willing to admit that.

Firstly, I want to state that I am a Yankee fan. I am sure that will now discredit my comments in the eyes of most of you, but here I go anyhow.
I was never the biggest Jeter fan. Quite frankly, I loved Oneill, Tino, and Rivera more , and I still do. However, Jeter’s greatness has always been apparent to me. I am more than willing to admit that he has never been a great shortstop, and that he has been quite bad in the last few seasons, particularly on balls up the middle. However, two things in this post really irked me. Firstly, the Jeterate-ing has created this counter-reaction, where people frustrated by it will now rip on his flaws and downplay his strengths because they hate the undeserving kudos he gets. I agree that it is over the top some of the time, but it does not change the fact that he has done some great things. For example, somebody said Jeter was out of position on that Oakland play, which is quite funny, considering that Derek and Joe Torre both said after the game that Jeter was exactly where he was supposed to be (Jeter didnt get what the big deal was). Second, the play that Joe is referring to is not done justice until you see it for yourself. I actually read Joe’s post before I ever saw the play live, and rolled my eyes at the yankees broadcast team, wholeheartedly agreeing with Joe. However, once I saw the play (which I’m sure many of the people here have not), I changed my tune. It was a very smart baseball play, and turned a negative into a positive or a neutral. There were runners on first and third with none out when the play started. It was a bullet grounder to third, and Jeter’s lead was enough to get him caught off the base. He did a very good job extending the rundown, making sure Beltre had to chase him towards home, thereby vacating third base. In that situation, if he had not been caught off the bag (which was a mistake on his part), the throw would have gone to second or first while holding Jeter, which at best would have resulted in second and third, one out, the exact ending of the play due to Jeter’s proficiency in the rundown. Robbie Cano had a similar play today and utterly failed to extend it. I love this blog, and Joe, but I think you should look at the play before criticizing. And…I’m done.

i will suggest you watch the replay (a few times) of the rundown you referred to. it really was a very good baseball play. given where the ball was hit and where jeter had his lead, jeter made something out of nothing. or at least he turned a negative into a neutral. most players would have tried to scramble back to 3rd base and been called out, leaving the situation first and second and one out instead of second and third and one out. in any event, he’s certainly not god but that particular example was actually some good baserunning.

It was a standard get caught in a run down for as long you can so the base runners will move up. It’s nothing that wouldn’t be expected of any baserunner. The yankee announcing team went on and on about this play. With another player this wouldn’t have happened, Joe’s correct.

I love this blog, and Joe, but I think you should look at the play before criticizing. And…I’m done.

Wouldn’t change a thing. Standard play blown out of proportion by the announcing team, much as you are.

People say the 7-1-04 Pokey Reese catch was better than the 7-1-04 Derek Jeter catch much the same way that people say Band A is better than the Beatles: out of raging fanlove and/or the desire to oppose the consensus. I’m in the “Jeter’s overrated” camp, too, but trying to pooh-pooh his crash catch is a chump’s quest.

To rehash the comparison for the goobamasquillionth time, Jeter ran further and caught a fair ball which saved runs from scoring. Reese was already playing the batter to pull, with the bases empty. And if he blows the play, there are no dire repercussions.

Context augments these things– if Jeter redirects the ball to catch Jeremy Giambi in a June 12th game against the A’s with one team leading 6-2, it gets two TV replays and a “nice flip.” In a 1-0 game that saves the Yankees’ season, it gets a little more. Context, gentlemen. Willie Mays said several times that the Wertz catch was not his best.

I was watching the game and saw the run down play you heard on the radio. I don’t think it was so much a brilliant play on Jeter’s part but a bad play on the catcher’s part not throwing back to the third baseman in time and causing the runners to move up at the last moment.

What struck me about the whole thing was that on the very next play, a shallow, soft liner to center, Alex Rodriguez got just a terrific jump on the ball and scored easily. Rodriguez’s base running play was superior to Jeter’s but Rodriguez doesn’t get the kudos for his baseball “smarts” like Jeter does.

Case in point, the 2004 Jeter dive into the stands against the Red Sox. It was a courageous play and certainly a dramatic one, but in a July game (I don’t care if it was against the Red Sox) it was potentially stupid. What if Jeter had gotten seriously injured? Anyhow, it’s rare when that kind of Pete Reiser recklessness isn’t commended, while Bobby Abreu’s tentativeness in the outfield is harped on constantly.

The point is, Rodriguez made a play that was more difficult than Jeter’s in that game but hardly anyone remembers it. With the game tied and the bases loaded and nobody out in the ninth, Rodriguez fielded a ground ball to his right. He was just beyond the third base bag. He went down to one knee (right knee), fielded the ball, extended his left leg, touched the bag, and then from the same position, threw home, over the base runner to Posada, who tagged the runner out for the second out of the inning.

Naturally, Rodriguez made the play look effortless. In fact, he was so caught up in the moment, he geeked and momentarily thought he had turned a triple play. Still, I contend it was a technically more difficult play than Jeters. But Jeter’s play was the definition of blood and guts effort.

I agree with how frustrating Jeter’s rep is, and of course, when Jeter is gone, there will be another guy to take the mantel. Jeter is just a perfect storm, isn’t he? On the other hand, one of the things that I’ve always loved about watching him (and I can safely say that I’ve watched at least 90% of every game he’s played in the big leagues) is that Jeter ALWAYS enjoys himself on the field. He’s exactly what Tom Boswell had in mind when he described a “gamer” as being the player who doesn’t get too lax in a blow-out game against a scrubby team in August or too tightly wound in the seventh game of the World Serious.

Just goes to show you how powerful perception is. Once a player gets a label as a “clutch” guy, it seems hard for them to shed it. Heck, Joe Frazier is still mired in cross-eyed fury over the image Ali presented of him all those years ago.

Just one last thing about Jeter. During his rookie season, the first person he reminded me of was John Starks, the erratic (ie nuts) shooting guard for the Knicks. It was something about the body language, that cocksure posture and walk. As Jeter’s rookie season unfolded, at each turn, he proved to be the anti-Starks. He didn’t fold under pressure, didn’t let his emotions get the better of him. No, he was poised from the get-go.

Now, Jeter is getting to be an old man. I can only think that his decline will be ugly in some way. He’s a very proud guy like Cal Ripken. What happens when even his biggest supporters say that he can’t hack it at short any longer? Of course, he’s got a huge ego, though he’s no Reggie, or even A Rod in his neediness to get attention. Yet if Jeter was the ultimate team player he would have moved from short when Rodriguez joined the team.

Then again, if he voluntarily surrendered his position, he wouldn’t be the player he’s made himself into, a Hall of Famer.

That was Pokey Reese and it indeed was a better catch than Jeters. Jeter caught the ball and continued into the stands. Pokey went into the stands as he caught the ball. Yet even a red sox dvd of the season calls Jeter’s catch the “play of the game”.

Jeter’s catch wasn’t even the best defensive play by a Yankee in that came. A-Rod’s double-play in the 11th was much better.

My favorite line of Jheteric (Jeter Rhetoric) is “he anticipates the flow of the game.” Utterly meaningless.

To be fair, Jeter is really good at catching popups. Not grounders so much, but popups, sure.

I was at that game last night and I didn’t see the play in question as anything special. In fact, when reading this post I couldn’t recall anything memorable that Jeter did last night and I thought, wow, I guess I was drunker than I thought.

Personally I love listening to John Sterling. Over the last two years he has been steadily moving into “loopy old uncle” territory and I think he gets funnier every month. His extremely awkward relationship with Suzy Waldman only adds to the fun.

I do sympathize with your feelings about Jeter. It’s tough when there’s a guy out there who you could be a big fan of if his obnoxious supporters didn’t keep getting in the way. There’s a dude running for President right now whose fan club draws out the same feelings in me.

Funny you speak of Pokey Reese in the past tense. Washington just signed him to a MiLB contract.

I’ve had an admittedly irrational extreme dislike for Jeter every since he yelled “balk” while at 3B to Bill Simas while in his wind-up during a White Sox-Yankees in 1999. Of course, Bill Simas though the umpire yelled “balk,” so he balked, and Jeter trotted home as smug as can be. (As a White Sox fan, you can imagine my “annoyance”) And, of course, he was lauded for what I still feel is a bush league - at best - play. It also amazed me to no end that A-Rod was criticized by the NY media for essentially the same thing when he yelled “I got it” to John McDonald (?) during a Yankees-Blue Jays game.

And Jeter’s catch in the 2004 Red Sox game was not nearly as good as the catch Juan Uribe made during the 2005 World Series. He leapt into the stands, caught the ball, and immediately threw it into the infield to prevent the running from moving up. And no showboating, either.

“The Yankees radio crew — and these are good folk, hard workers, they’re just lost in the Jeter flood like so many — basically sang Hosanas to Derek Jeter for getting caught in a rundown.”

“these are good folk, hard workers?” Clearly you haven’t listened to enough Yankees radio broadcasts. I’m a New Yorker and a lifetime Yankee fan and I can attest to the fact that the buffoons who call the Yankee radio games are the biggest clowns ever to sit in front of microphones in broadcasting history. It’s hard to decide what’s more detestable: the way they fall out of their shorts to praise everything a Yankee player does, says, or thinks; or the criminal incompetence, shallow unprofessionalism, and ear-piercing caterwauls they employ in that endeavour.

Do you realize that along with his universally-mocked “thu-u-u-u-u-uh Yankees win!!!” call, Sterling has a sickeningly “clever” pun that he bellows out for each individual Yankee when they hit a homerun? I’m sure that over the course of your drive you thoroughly enjoyed Suzyn Waldman’s spine-bending screech and dockworker accent. Every time my love of the Yankees forces me to endure a few hours of these two blights on the airwaves, I shake my head in amazement that these are professional broadcasters.

Great stuff. Somebody mentioned that perception is reality which really sums it up. I also saw that somebody mentioned MannyBeingManny which is kind of the same thing as Jetering but in a slightly negative direction.

I have seen several highlights where people seem genuinely shocked when Manny can make even a fairly routine play. His hitting also seems to be downplayed in the way that good things are glossed over in anticipation for him to do something stupid so we can say MannyBeingManny again. Manny, like Jeter, is an easy hall of famer but you get the impression he is a marginal player.

I have to agree with Jeff Wright- it’s not Jeter there, it’s the morons we Yankee fans have to deal with in the radio and tv broadcasts. I’d say the Sterling/ Waldman duo is the third worst in baseball*.

Now when Jeter tells fans to back off booing Giambi, but says Arod has to deal with it, that’s when you can criticize Jeter.

*Worst is Hawk Harrelson and whomever he is partnered with. Next is Tom Hamilton (Indians); he confuses volume with excitement and shows no interest in the non-Indians hitting side of the game.

To say of the Yankees’ crew “these are good folk, hard workers?” is, truly, a bit of Jeteration in and of itself.

On an entirely different note, how is it that not one of you has stood up for Drew Barrymore? Sure, she’s a horrible actress, but it’s her intangibles that make her so desirable. Or it could be that lateral lisp that is so cute in 30-something women…and you’ll have to check my facts on this, but I think her UZR is better than Jeter’s.

Jeter makes the very difficult look easy. But you could probably do it blindfolded. Riiight?

Jealousy is a disease. Get well soon, bit.ch

Yankee fan here. Very funny stuff Joe. I didn’t hear the radio commentary on that one, but can imagine Sterling and Waldman going crazy about that play. Had Jeter not waved them on over, they still would be saying what a great play it was (especially with the sac fly and hit that came next), but with the wave, it becomes one of the best plays ever. Gotta love ‘em.

JD, Ma and Pa Yankee are truly an ordeal. I listen to just about every game on the radio because I don’t have (or want) cable. But as with most media things, you learn to filter and just listen for the action. Thankfully, people like Peter Abraham (see above) also cover the Yankees with thoughtful, interesting diligence.

Charlie Steiner cut the terror level a bit back when he was partnered with Sterling. Since then, it has truly been a listening tour of the Abyss.

Most of what you say is true. Not sure why you get upset that the announcers talked about Jeter waving the runners around. Mays used to do that all the time. So did Jackie Robinson. And you know what? The announcers of that era thought it was great, too. Rundowns can be fun when the player caught in the middle has some athletic ability.

Did I just mention Jeter in the same sentence with Mays and Jackie? There. I feel jeterized.

This sums up my feelings of Jeter perfectly.

However: the idea of moving him to third would have been a TERRIBLE idea. He has no first step. But — and this is speaking as a Yankee-hating Red Sox fan — he would have been a natural in center field. Nice arm, nice speed, great at judging flyballs. Yet the team and its fan base were convinced that Bernie Williams was just fine out there.

Worshiping mystique and aura instead of watching the game before your eyes comes at a price.

Thank you, Yankee fans. We all appreciate it.

I leave work at 7PM and have to suffer for 40 minutes of that radio call on most nights. I’d rather chew on foil than listen to Sterling and Waldman gush about my team.

Aside from making every turning every Yankees into Roy Hobbs, this year they’ve been complaining about the weather every friggin’ inning.

I lost whatever respect I had for Yankee broadcasters after watching SportsCenter the night that Dwight Gooden threw his no-hitter. They played the audio of John Sterling on the final out as he declared, “Yankees win! Thuuuuuuuuh Yankees win!!!! And Dwight Gooden has thrown a no-hitter!” Nice, John.

A few weeks ago, on ESPN, Toronto v NYY, bases empty. Jeter hits a ground ball to the pitcher, who carelessly throws past first base. Jeter tries for second base: right fielder throws him out, and it’s not close. So what did the ESPN guys say?

A) If you’re thrown out by five yards on a non-forceout, that’s not great baserunning.
B) Excellent play by Alex Rios, backing up like that. It’s almost as if he didn’t trust AJ Burnett to make the throw to first.
C) The wall knocked the ball down.

I would have gone for b) but, as you can perhaps guess, the correct answer is c).

Wow, all this Sterling/Waldman bashing is great. I thought it was just me. John Sterling has been mailing his broadcasts in for years now; it’s the same tired “insights” night after night. I’ve had this recurring nightmare that just by virtue of his sticking around forever one day Sterling would find himself on stage at Cooperstown accepting the Ford Frick award, but maybe there’s hope for justice yet.

It was Howie Clark who was distracted by A-Rod (on May 30, 2007). To set the record straight, the offending comment was not “I got it,” it was “Hah!”

I think an alternative term is “Jeetamatic Immunity”

The play that annoys the crap out of me is when he’s ranging right on a ball in the hole and refuses to set his feet and make a strong, controlled throw. Instead he keeps running the opposite direction and makes that silly leap throw that usually has nothing on it.

A whole generation of kids is being taught that this is the right way to make this play, because the announcers praise it (it’s “smooth looking” or something). But it is fundamentally wrong.

He is a bad role model for kids in this regard. At least to the non-weener kids who play baseball instead of video games.

Great Post, Joe.
I live in NY and gotten into so many Jeter is overrated arguments with Yankee fans that I have long lost count of them. As many people above have said, Jeter is a great singles hitter who is nice to have near the top of order on any team, but his lack of power or even doubles make him not even near the top of the leagues best players. Another fact that I have not seen mentioned above is that for all the intense playoff games I have seen the yankees play in for the past dozen years, I can only remember one major hit in the last 2 innings of a game to win or tie a game(Home run to win game 1 of 2001 world series). I remember every year watching jeter bat in the late innings of playoff games worried that if he got a hit, all the yankee fans I know will be ripping on me for the next few days, but it never happened, he always got out. The vast majority of his playoff hits are in the early to middle part of the game. To be fair though, batting .300 in the playoffs is a great feat and deserves a lot of credit, but he was not the clutch hitter late in playoff games that drove the yankees to all those championships.

I hate Drew Barrymore too.

You know what kills me about the “leadership” nonsense? That ever since the Yankees became “Jeter’s Team” (in a ceremony hosted by Tim McCarver or something), they haven’t won a World Series.

You know what I like? How Yankee fans hate A-Rod, too. It would have been so cool if you people had managed to drive him out of town.

Oh man, where do I begin with some of these insightful comments:

“.316/.387/.461, 2406 hits, 197 HR, 956 RBI, 1404 R, 267 SB, 121 OPS+, four world championships and a bunch of Clutch Points Is that a first ballot, automatic Hall of Famer? I don’t know. ”

That’s laughable. Let’s take a look at
Cal Ripken, for instance:

.276/.340/.461, OPS+ 112.

“I’m not sure if I’m remembering correctly, but didn’t Cano profile as a third basemen at the time of ARod’s arrival?”

Of course, you are not remembering correctly. Cano was a 2nd baseman in the minors. It’s irrelevant anyway because A-Rod already made the switch to 3rd a good year before Cano made his Major Legue debut.

“Jeter is a great singles hitter who is nice to have near the top of order on any team, but his lack of power or even doubles make him not even near the top of the leagues best players.”

I guess his 39 doubles each of the past two seasons are “mythical” as well. Yankee fans, Tim McCarver, and Suzyn Waldman just made them up and lobbied Baseball Reference.com to have them inserted into the record.

Jeter is so overrated he’s underrated. I had to endure an Oakland A’s fan a few years ago telling me that Jeter wouldn’t even be considered for the Hall of Fame if he played for someone like the Reds or A’s. But he had no idea that Jeter was easily on pace for well over 3000 hits in his career. Those of you who criticize the “Jeteraters” don’t even realize how ridiculous and biased you are, only in the opposite direction.

“I like cookies. They are delicious.”

Hahahahahaha, that’s just so awesome. Joe, you rock. When’s your next book coming out?

“First, diving into the stands is extremely stupid. The way he did it he could have ended his career with a spinal injury, or gotten a really bad concussion and it wasn’t even a playoff game. Dumb.”

In Jeter’s defense, it’s not as if he willfully dove into the stands or something. He raced full speed to catch that foul ball, and when he’d done so, he simply couldn’t slow down anymore and hit the wall.

As baseball players are wont to do when they hit the wall while going fast, his legs sort of flipped up, causing him to go face first into the seats.

I’m sure that if he’d been able to slow down enough, he definitely would have done so.

Also, I never understand why people keep bringing up the “He held on to the ball!!1!11!” as this would have made no difference whatsoever. Jeter caught it and took two more steps before getting flung into seats that will cost 1000 dollars next year. If he had dropped it, it’d still have been an out.

It was a great play, as it was a great catch. The headfirst into seat 34 row 3 was just an unfortunate (for him) side effect.

“I don’t know. This has always been my assumption as well, but when you think of it this way… Take, say, a right fielder, a good defensive right fielder, who has the following career stat line through 13-plus seasons in the post-1993 era:

.316/.387/.461, 2406 hits, 197 HR, 956 RBI, 1404 R, 267 SB, 121 OPS+, four world championships and a bunch of Clutch Points.

Is that a first ballot, automatic Hall of Famer? I don’t know.”

As an outfielder? Probably not. As a shortstop? Yes.

> He raced full speed to catch that foul ball

It was a fair ball. Check the game log for July 1, 2004:

T Nixon Defensive Indifference; Damon to 2B
Popfly: SS (Deep 3B)

Yankee fan here - not Jeter’s biggest fan, but he does a number of things very well, the most important being his representing the team and sport in a super-pro fashion. Much the same as Ripkin was overrated despite a few very good years, and in his last years was running on air, his value to the sport is far greater than his value to the team, and his value to the team is greater than his objective, statistical worth.
While he has the personality of a stone and could have done an number of things differently ( Torre, ARod, Giambi etc.) I dare say there has not been a whiff of an issue with him ( being out late one nite???)living as the biggest star in the biggest media market on the planet for almost 15 years! He is not the biggest media darling either, so its not like he is being protedcted either - a single guy dating superstar women who is not gambling, fighting, DWI, drugs, steroids, spitting on sidewalk etc. He is to be admired for his character.
Also, while he has had the stage alot, and has slipped offensively the last few years, he does know how to rise to the occasion more often than most - i.e. he hit a homer on the game of the week against the Mets on national TV, only his second of the year.
Criticize him, compare him stats-wise to others, degrade his defense, jam him inside with hard stuff…just give me him every time I need a hit in a big spot, and I will win far more often than I will lose!!

Mot, this was hilarious. Anyone who has been annoyed by John Sterling knows what he’s talking about…

But what do I know — baseball is such a funny game. Anyway…

Yes, Jeter is a shortstop and Cal Ripken is a shortstop, but I think the two of you that quoted my post missed the point: Jeter is a terrible defensive shortstop. Yes, his offensive numbers are awesome for a shortstop, but they’re mitigated by his awful defense. I’m not convinced you wouldn’t get similar defense and similar offense if Larry Walker had played shortstop. He’d be bad at it… but Jeter is bad at it, too.

In other words, I think it’s possible the detrimental effect of Jeter’s abysmal defense at the most important position on the field is being understated even by many of his statistically-minded detractors.

Hmm, I like the Larry Walker-Derek Jeter comparisons, but then I think Larry Walker should be in the Hall of Fame! Walker was definitely a better player when he was healthy, but Jeter has a huge in-season durability advantage, which counts for a lot.

In these sorts of discussions one should always be careful to distinguish between whether a player deserves to make the HOF and whether the writers are likely to vote for him. As a matter of fact, Jeter is definitely a first ball Hall of Famer, in that the writers will vote him in on the first ballot (and it will probably be nearly unanimous). As for the second question, well, Jeter has probably had something like the 100′th best career for a position player in MLB history thus far (see post 422 here: http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/dan_rosenhecks_warp_data/P400/). That is well within the size of the actual hall, but assuming that people take “first ballot Hall of Famer” as a description of how good the player was, implying that he is in the upper tier of the hall, I don’t think Jeter is an inner-circle hall of famer, and “small hall” people should oppose his induction.

You need to stop and really think about this posting. Read over it again with a look of indignation on your face. Then read it a third time with a look of total incredulity and realize this: drinking the Jeterade is SO MUCH FUN!

you’re absolutely right…mencia is not funny