There was a headline on ESPN.com Tuesday that I thought was pretty funny. It said something like, “Piazza hangs up catching gear after 16 seasons.” This is funny to me on many different levels — for one thing, Piazza hasn’t caught a game in like two years, he gave up his gear back before Hill thought she was going to be President. But even beyond that, isn’t headlining a Piazza retirement with his catching a bit like saying “Dick Vitale retires from writing career” or “William Shatner finally gives up singing.” Sure, Piazza was a catcher. But with him it always seemed kind of beside the point.
I really don’t want to get into questions about Piazza’s catching, that’s not my point today, and anyway this always leads to passionate and inconclusive arguments about whether Piazza was really THAT bad a defensive catcher. Someone will offer vague evidence that shows he handled pitchers well, and someone else will offer pretty concrete evidence that he could not throw and in his prime years he was good for double digit passed balls, and then someone else will point out that he blocked the plate well … whatever. Either way he was no Tom Pagnozzi.
Today’s question, instead, is this: Who is the New York Mets best everyday player? I bring this up because of Piazza’s retirement, naturally, but also because my traveling partner on this crazy trip to Boston and Cooperstown is the New York Post’s Mike Vaccaro, lifelong friend, insane Mets fan. Vackie and I have had powerful arguments about who suffered more as a young sports fan. He claims his Mets, Jets and Knicks caused him more agony than my Indians, Browns and Cavs, and thinking logically and fairly about this I must admit that he is completely insane. The Jets, yeah, they’ve been a troubling bunch*, and he did for the most part catch the Knicks between golden years. But the Mets gave him ‘86, which trumps everything, and anyway the Islanders won four Stanley Cups in a row. It’s his own fault if he wasn’t a big hockey fan. I was willing for a taste of victory to embrace any sport including team tennis to try and get close to a championship (the Cleveland Nets had Martina Navratliova AND Bjorn Borg on the team and, in Cleveland style, still managed to not win anything).
*I have to write at some point about watching a rerun of the Jets-Browns playoff game with Vackie — that game was the crescendo of my career as a sports fan. Plus it was awesome to see Vackie’s face after Mark Gastineau hit Bernie Kosar late (though, despite the conventional wisdom, I do not believe that was the actual turning point of the game … I’ll get to that at some point).
Anyway, for most teams a “who was the best every day player” discussion either brings up an instant and incontestable name (In Kansas City, it’s George Brett, in Boston it’s Ted Williams, in New York it’s Babe Ruth) or a a series of names worth arguing about (Killebrew or Puckett? Reggie or Rickey? Morgan or Bench or Rose?). But with the Mets, wow, who is it? Obviously if you just want the best player in team history, it’s Tom Seaver, he’s the face of the franchise, but among everyday players … Cleon Jones? Darryl Strawberry? Edgardo Alfonso? Who?
This is no joke. Do you know which Mets player, with more than 2,000 plate appearances, has the team’s highest OPS? I’ll give you a few seconds to think about it. Actually, no I won’t … it’s John Olerud. Yep. Mr. Met. John Olerud. His OPS was .926. Olerud also is the Mets leader in batting average (.315), on-base percentage (.425), and he’s tied for fifth in slugging (.501). When you consider that he also won three Gold Gloves (though, admittedly, none for the Mets) , you could argue …
OK, no you can’t. John Olerud only played three years with the Mets. He’s not the best player in Mets history.
So, then maybe you want to go with career counting numbers. There is a Mets player who leads the club in hits, total bases, doubles, times-on-base and sacrifice flies …. I’m sure you know that we’re talking about, Ed Kranepool. Fine guy. Made his Mets debut as a 17-year-old in 1962, and retired as a Met in 1979. He made an All-Star team in ‘65. Good guy. Good reserve in his later years. But, uh, no, an outfielder with a career 97 OPS+ is probably not the best player in Mets history.
My gut instinct was to say Darryl Strawberry. People tend to look at Straw for all things he could have been, all the things he SHOULD have been, but hey, he does have a career 145 OPS+ in his Mets career, and he probably should have won the MVP award in 1988 (and maybe in 1987 too). He hit 252 home runs, most in team history. He started in five consecutive All-Star Games. … But, here I have to yield to my friend Vackie, the lifetime Mets fan, who loved Darryl Strawberry but says in that determined voice that denies questioning or argument: Darryl Strawberry is not the greatest player in Mets history.
OK. Fine. But … no, Vac’s not relenting. OK. Well, there is Cleon Jones. He doesn’t actually lead the Mets in any major career category, but he was a good player in a low-scoring era. He played almost his whole career with the Mets (he finished with 40 at-bats for the White Sox) and he had a 110 OPS+, which is OK. He made an All-Star team. Um, you know what? It’s not Cleon Jones either.
Then, there’s Piazza. He had four and a half, almost five very good seasons with the Mets — 1998-2002 — and three injury prone, OK seasons. He arrived in New York in May of 1998, and he just crushed the ball right away. His last month or so — 28 games — he hit .429/.500/.796 with 12 doubles, 8 homers, 27 RBIs and 20 runs. He was just mashing the ball.
And of course in 2000, he and Edgardo Alfonso really carried a pretty average Mets team to the World Series. Barry Bonds should have won the MVP that year, but the writers didn’t give it to him, they gave it Jeff Kent, and if they had already decided NOT to give it to Bonds then Piazza certainly had a case. Piazza was only slightly down the next year, and only slightly down from there the year after that.
So, yeah, Vac thinks Piazza is the best player in Mets history. I can’t help but … Strawberry? No? OK, let’s do a poll.*
*Incidentally, we all agree that in five years the argument will be over and David Wright will take his place as the best player in Mets history. But it’s too soon to put him on the list. Some will try to claim Carlos Beltran, but that will not be accepted on this blog — here Beltran is and always will be a member of the Kansas City Royals.
* * *
A new series. I call it …
Stuff I run across while researching The Machine, my book about the 1975 Cincinnati Reds.
Yep. I’m hoping to every so often include a few fun tidbits that I run across while, well, you see the title. Today’s tidbit is for all my good friends who are baseball writers out there. This comes from the Boston Herald, October 21, 1975. This was after the second rainout day lbetween Game 5 and Game 6. That year, Carl Yastrzemski was writing a diary/column for the Herald. He was doing fine until the second rainout. Here’s what Yaz wrote that day:
I’ve always thought baseball writers had it kind of easy writing stories when there was no game to write about. What an awakening I’ve had. It’s very difficult to come up with a topic when there’s no game to write about.
When this thing is over, I may have written my final column.
* * *
People sometimes ask me what’s the difference between a blog and a column. I don’t really think there are any big differences other than a blog has no length specifications and, in my case, includes many misspellings and grammatical mistakes. But I have seen another difference, one that is subtle (perhaps even imaginary). But it may serve a larger point.
The other day, in my column about the Lester no-hitter, I included a list of great names and nicknames who have thrown no-nos, and in the list I included, oh, I don’t remember all of them, but I know I put in Feller, Koufax, Big Train, Unit, Ryan and Pedro.
Now, here’s the interesting thing to me: I received many emails from people who wanted to let me know that Pedro never threw a no-hitter. The emails were generally nice, thoughtful, and of course correct — technically speaking Pedro never threw a no-hitter. They seemed to think I had made a mistake. Some wanted a correction printed.
BUT … Iif I had written in on this blog, I don’t think I would have received those emails (or certainly not as many) because I suspect you would know where I was coming from, that I don’t really care about the technical thing — Pedro threw 27 perfect and gave up a hit in the 10th, and I don’t care what anyone say THAT IS a no-hitter, record books be damned.
I just find that kind of interesting. I’m not saying a column is better than a blog or vice versa. They are both just vehicles. But maybe there really is a different expectation. Maybe there’s a certain seriousness in the mainstream media, a sort of rigidity that demands the writer be indisputable and a servant to precision. Maybe that’s the part of blogs that scares people — that they are fast and loose and play by their own rules. I don’t know. I still say Pedro threw a no-hitter.
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95 Comments, Comment or Ping
Devin McCullen
Keith Hernandez should probably be in the poll as well. Although I’d still vote for Piazza.
And I don’t think we’ll have to wait 5 years for David Wright. After 2010 we should be fine.
May 21st, 2008
Will
Lifelong Mets fan and I’d vote for Piazza as best everyday Met with Strawberry second.
May 21st, 2008
okobojicat
I’m with Devin in nominating Keith Hernandez, which I’m guess you just left off as an accident. He had 4 very good, almost great seasons with the Mets, one injured season where he was good, and then two downer seasons. He also won every single gold glove between 1978 and 1988 (yes, only 5.5 of those were with the Mets, traded mid-season). Wow.
Also, Pedro’s was a no-hitter. No doubt about it. Stupid rule.
May 21st, 2008
theDAWG
Joe, you’re darn good at this. I might have to pick up a book of yours.
P.S. If Pedro got a no-hitter, what do you call this thing?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/MLN/MLN195905260.shtml
Editor’s note: Damn straight that’s a no-hitter.
May 21st, 2008
Will
I’ve always know that Haddix pitched 12 innings of no hit ball but I didn’t realize Burdette gave up 12 hits. Toughest luck ever Harvey. THAT is a no hitter.
May 21st, 2008
cf
That has to be the toughest loss of all time. He was perfect through 12, followed by an E5, sacrifice, intentional walk to hank aaron, and a double. It looks like the hitter got in a rundown to allow the run to score, too.
May 21st, 2008
Spergler
I’m going to say Keith Hernandez, too, for two reasons.
1)Seinfeld: As someone who grew up in the ’90s following the Texas Rangers, that episode of Seinfeld made Hernandez Mr. Met in my mind.
2)The incessant arguments about whether maybe, just maybe, he should be a Hall of Famer. These arguments do not come out of St. Louis.
May 21st, 2008
Kyle
Not that I’d vote for him, but Howard Johnson deserves to be on the list. I mean, if you put Cleon Jones up there, HoJo had a career OPS+ of 117, and had three 30-30 seasons, back when it meant something.
Objectively, Strawberry probably was the greatest Met, but since this isn’t an objective thing, Piazza gets my vote. I simply can’t erase the stigma of what might have been and how Darryl snorted it away.
And yes, I look forward to the day when I can vote for DW in this poll.
May 21st, 2008
Eric J
If I remember my Haddix game correctly, Adcock hit the ball out of the park, and Aaron thought it had been caught and the inning was over. So Aaron left the bases, and Adcock was out for passing him.
May 21st, 2008
Kyle
Another note for HoJo, his 1989 season, where his line was .287/.369/.559 was the highest OPS+ (169) full single season by a Met.
May 21st, 2008
Kyle
Eric J, even if the ball that Adcock hit was caught, that would have only been 2 outs, why would he leave the field?
May 21st, 2008
Kyle
That is, why would Aaron leave the field?
Damn pronouns.
May 21st, 2008
Brian Gunn
Here’s a complete list of guys with 9-inning no-hitters lost in extra innings:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_no-hitters#Broken_up_in_extra_innings
By the way, it wasn’t until 1991 that MLB said that no-hitters must be complete games of at least 9 innings (at which point they retroactively stripped no-hitters from guys like Haddix and Maloney, as well as a bunch of dudes who threw rain-shortened no-hitters).
May 21st, 2008
Eric J
Not sure… maybe he left the field because it was the bottom of the inning and they’d won the game. That’s what I get for relying on memory…
May 21st, 2008
Alex Belth
Hey, Joe. I’m a Yankee fan but always loved watching Piazza when he was here in New York, unless, of course, he was hitting against the Yanks.
Which brings to mind something I was thinking about after visiting Shea this year…the new park is so close to Shea that it appears as it is hovering in the outfield. From certain angles at Shea you actually can’t tell where one park ends and the other begins. Could anyone actually hit one out of Shea and have it touch the new park? Piazza is the one guy I can think of that’d stand a chance. Remember that BOMB he hit over the fugging tent against Ramiro Mendoza years ago? (Mendoza sure could serve up some doozies; I was at the Stadium when Juan Encarnacion planted one in the LEFT field bleachers, one of I believe only two guys ever to hit one out there.)
Piazza on a hot streak was just a thing of beauty, especially the way he hit to right field. He’d hit balls that looked like fouls down the right field line and they were hit so hard they didn’t have a chance to curve foul and they’d wind up over the right field fence for a homer.
Some Yankee fans didn’t like the dude, even before the whole Clemens fiasco. I think they thought he was trying to be a tough guy with the mustache and scowl, but Piazza always struck me as a pussycat. About the only thing I liked watching him do more than hit was going from first to home on a double in the gap. Now THAT was high comedy.
I’m 37, so I remember the 80s Mets very well. Mex Hernandez was as tough an out in a big spot as anyone I can recall from my childhood other than George Brett. Strawberry was an awesome talent. And I freaking LOVED Olerud later on, just loved him. But if I had to pick the greatest Met to date, I’d give the nod to Piazza. He was the straw that stirred the drink and put the Mets back on the map again. I may be wrong, but Yazzie gets my vote, man.
Oh, and Pos, a pox on you an your ancestors for bringing up 4th and 15 Mark Gastineau, that somanonbitchbastid. Thanks for mentioning the Knicks too. How about a paper cut with lemon juice and kosher salt poured over it too while you are at it?
May 21st, 2008
Jeremy
Mike Piazza wasn’t even the best player on his team in 2000, much less the MVP. Edgardo Alfonzo was quite a bit better, putting up a .324/.425/.542 line while playing excellent defense. His OPS+ trailed only 155-147, and he played 14 more games. Sadly, I’m hours from my Win Shares book, but I seem to recall the order of finish that year as Kent, Alfonzo, Bonds, Piazza. (I actually agree with Kent’s MVP that year, and I’m a huge Bonds fan.)
What irks me about the no-hitter/perfect game rules is that Pedro Martinez’ nine perfect innings isn’t a no-hitter (or a perfect game), because he gave up a hit in the tenth, but Andy Hawkins’ no-hitter, the one that he lost 4-0 thanks to five walks and three errors, is also not a no-hitter, because he threw only eight innings in a losing effort, as he was the visiting starter. They can’t have it both ways, can they?
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1990/B07010CHA1990.htm
May 21st, 2008
NOYDB
As great as Strawberry could have been, he will always be the best Met for me. No player (including Dwight Gooden) better represented the highs and lows of being a Met fan than Strawberry.
May 21st, 2008
Man in Black
Nice work Alex. Very funny.
May 21st, 2008
Old Man Duggan
No love for Ray Knight? Kevin McReynolds? Kevin Elster? For shame.
May 21st, 2008
Old Man Duggan
And of course, Mookie Wilson
May 21st, 2008
S P
Hands down David Wright. You can’t call it too early. You don’t wait for a train to finish passing you before you know it’s a train do you? Of course not! In Mets history right now, Wright’s ALREADY 3rd in OBP, 2nd in AVG and SLG AND OPS, 9th in Doubles, 9th in RBI’s, 10th in Runs Created, 3rd in adjusted OPS+ (higher than Piazza), and last year managed to have the highest single season Total Bases any Met ever has accomplished. Oh, and Wright trumps Piazza by coming up AS A MET…. just like Beltran came up as a Royal
May 21st, 2008
David Wintheiser
I kinda noticed there that Edgardo Alfonso’s name got dropped during the discussion of Piazza (”he and Edgardo Alfonso carried a pretty average Mets team to the World Series”), and then never got picked up again. I think Jeremy has a good point.
Sure, OPS+ is a good stat, but you know what else is a good stat? Runs Created. Piazza and Alfonso each played eight seasons as Mets. Piazza created 675 runs as a Met, which is a nice total — average of over 80 per year.
Alfonso created 671 runs during his eight seasons. He never had one of Piazza’s gaudy batting-average seasons, and he didn’t have Piazza’s power, but he stayed in the lineup (an extra 114 games, according to baseball-reference.com), which helped him draw more walks (458 to 424 — are you as surprised as I am that Alfonso drew more walks than Piazza) while striking out less, grounding into far fewer DPs (132 for Piazza, 68 for Alfonso), and while Alfonso never won a Gold Glove, there likewise isn’t evidence that he was a defensive butcher in the infield, meaning he’s at worst a wash defensively, and probably gains some value there.
Not to cast aspersions on Met fans, but I’d have to say that a thinking Met fan would have to put Alfonso into this conversation, at least until Wright gets a few more seasons under his belt.
May 21st, 2008
JeffSol
My recollection of the Haddix game is that Aaron though the ball was in the park and a hit, so he touched 2nd, and the run scoring, in his mind, ended the game. Adcock was then ruled out for passing Aaron when he circled the bases.
I’m 39 and a lifelong Met fan. I had my heart broken when they traded Seaver, remember with great fondness the shocking ‘84 Mets, who won 90 games through Davey Johnson’s brilliance as manager, smoke, mirrors and luck, as they allowed more runs than they scored that year. In many ways that year was the most fun because it so came out of nowhere following the drudgery of the Torre and Bamberger years. I remember the original K Korner for Gooden in ‘85. This is a tough vote for me, acknowledging that Wright will be the answer before long. I think I have to go with Piazza, but it’s close. and as significant as Piazza was to the team, no acquisition ever signaled nor drove a turning point in the club’s history like Mex.
On a separate note, I was at Game 6 in ‘86, and at no time in the 10th inning, until the Wild Pitch, did I ever have the feeling Joe discussed in his experience at Fenway the other night. In fact, I recall saying to my friend when Mookie got up “If they don’t at least tie it, I wish Carter would have just struck the f*&% out”. On the other hand, during game 7, watching from home, even when they fell behind, I, and I suspect most Met and Sox fans, KNEW the Mets were coming from behind to win. There was no doubt in my mind, and after the nervousness of game 6 I was totally calm.
May 21st, 2008
Levi Stahl
Piazza’s always been a favorite of mine, even though he never played for a team I rooted for. What an exciting player. He’ll be missed.
{And he was a founding member of my wife’s all-cute team. There’s no accounting for taste, I suppose, though I don’t know what that says about me.}
May 21st, 2008
Eric J
I think the other team that kind of leaves you grasping for names is the Angels. I mean, there are guys who have passable cases - Tim Salmon, Jim Fregosi, Bobby Grich, Vlad. But you wouldn’t necessarily think of any of them except Vlad right away, and he’s only been there for 5 years. Am I forgetting anyone else?
May 21st, 2008
Rob
My best friend is a Mets fan, and he and I were in the car today, and talking about Piazza retiring, and we were talking what hat Mike should wear into the the Hall upon his inevitable induction (as IF it was his choice). He was saying “no doubt–the Mets.” I disagreed and said the Dodgers, because that’s where he established himself as THE N.L. All-Star Catcher. The conversation then went to who was his favorite Met player and he said Piazza, and he asked me as baseball and NOT a Mets fan who I thought was the Best Met ever, followed by asking me who my favorite Met ever was. I told him Tom Seaver was my favorite as well as the Greatest Met ever, but NOT being a Mets fan, I had a tough time figuring out the greatest non-pitching Met. I threw around names of players I liked such as Rusty Staub, Bud Harrelson (since I got to meet him and he was really nice), Mex Hernandez, Jerry Koosman (since I got to meet him, and was really nice–notice the pattern here). Bottom line, it’s a VERY tough call on who is the best Mets postiton player ever, but I fully agree that David Wright is on the cusp of that MUCH sooner than later. But in closing, I have to say it’s very odd that a team with such a rich history over 46 plus years has zero no-hitters, not much in the way of Hall Of Fame presence, and an argument almost 5 decades after the team beginnings as to who it’s greatest player is…odd indeed. Maybe we can start a conversation as to the other expansion teams’ best players are and if the Mets aren’t just an aberration in the ways I just mentioned.
May 21st, 2008
Eric J
As far as the other expansion teams go, let’s see what we can come up with…
The Astros have Biggio and Bagwell as the two candidates. The new Senators/Rangers have… Pudge, probably. I mentioned the Angels above; they’re fairly Mets-like. The Padres have Gwynn, the Brewers have Yount, the Royals have Brett, the Expos have Raines and Dawson, the Mariners have Griffey, A-Rod, and Edgar. The Blue Jays are a tough call - you either pick one of the guys who was there for a long time and good in the ’80s or one of the guys who was there for a short time and great in the ’90s; Barfield or Alomar, I guess. Then you get to the ’90s expansion teams, which haven’t really been around long enough to have clear-cut top guys (except for Todd Helton).
So, it’s not unique to the Mets, but most of the older expansion teams still have a couple of top-shelf guys.
May 21st, 2008
Danil
“Iif I had written in on this blog, I don’t think I would have received those emails (or certainly not as many)”
Really? I would have taken the over, myself….
http://www.xkcd.com/386/
May 21st, 2008
Vin
Another guy who belongs in the Blue Jays discussion is Delgado. He may get somewhat overlooked on account of playing on teams that were largely mediocre-to-bad, but he had eight or nine very productive seasons in Toronto (181 OPS+ in 2000, his best year).
On the flip side, he played first base during a high offense era and had a bad glove. Like with the Mets, its a close call between him, Alomar, Barfield and George Bell.
And as a lifelong Mets fan, I’d have to go with Strawberry, though by a hair. Having been a toddler during his peak, I don’t really remember him, but he had more great years as a Met than Piazza did.
I’ll always carry those late-90s Mets with me, though. Even though we were always second fiddle to the Braves and Yankees, that was a great time to be a fan and they were a fun team. Also, it was my first real taste of a competitive Mets team, having endured my formative-fan years during the depths of the early/mid-90s. Nothing like your first.
May 21st, 2008
Pat S.
When I look at the morning paper and see C. Jones leading the NL in hitting, my first thought is, “Cleon.”
May 21st, 2008
Morgan
So much to say! I think I have to pick the tiniest of bones, Mr. Joe, though it’s more of a clarification. Piazza caught 99 games w/the Padres before DH’ing with the A’s, so I don’t know if you were going by calender years or baseball seasons (and sorry to blow your point about less nitpicking with the blog’s, but I don’t know about that either, I’ve noticed lots of people jump on blogs with corrections, but not being a sportswriter I wouldn’t know what happens in your magic factory behind closed the scenes).
The Mets do have a rich history of pitching, despite the lack of no-hitters, so it’s not surprising that this position player question is a doozy. As far as a conversation about the other expansion teams:
Rays: one would think Carl Crawford
Diamondbacks: Luis Gonzalez, or maybe Matt Williams?
Marlins: hard to say, they seem to jettison anyone who seems to be good, but Gary Sheffield, Jeff Conine, Miggy or Hanley?
Rockies: Larry Walker or Todd Helton?
Blue Jays: Carlos Delgado, George Bell, Joe Carter, Roberto Alomar, John Olerud, Fred McGriff, Shawn Green, I haven’t got a clue.
Mariners: the traitorous Junior or A-Rod, or the loyal Edgar Martinez, Ichiro, or does Alvin Davis still get love?
Expos/Nats: Tim Raines, Gary Carter, Andre Dawson, Vlad, Rusty, um, Tim Wallach?
Padres: the easiest, Tony Gwynn
Pilots/Brewers: Robin Yount
Royals: the aforementioned Mr. Brett
Astros/Colt 45’s: Jeff Bagwell, but awhile wasn’t it Glenn Davis?
Senators/Rangers: Frank Howard, Burroughs or Hargrove, Ruben Sierra, Julio Franco, Juan Gonzalez, or Rafael Palmerio?
Angels: Tim Salmon, Vlad, Garrett Anderson, Don Baylor, Bobby Grich, Doug DeCinces, um, Reggie Jackson, Rod Carew, Wally Joyner?
I just realized that I seem to have I misunderstood Rob’s point and ignored pitchers, sorry, I won’t subject you all to any more of my listing.
I like this question about who’s the greatest Met, as it evokes a great deal from my mind and my heart. I remember seeing Piazza hit probably the longest homerun I’ve ever seen at Dodgertown (have family, been to many a spring training) the year BEFORE he came up, and spent the whole season wondering aloud why the kept Scioscia around when they had this guy waiting in the wings, Simpsons appearance notwithstanding. So I have been a fan of Piazza’s for awhile, and I had forgotten just how ecstatic I was when the Mets acquired him, which allows a little of my heart to vote with my head and say that he is the greatest Met to date, although as one who came upon baseball as Strawberry came up, and who was 9 in ‘86, and who met him (he wasn’t that nice, but I blame all the guys hassling him at the card show, mostly, well, partially) most of my heart leans in the Straw’s direction, for you can’t love players as a grown up (which I guess I must almost be now) like you do as a little kid. There is a corner of both head and heart that wishes it were Keith Hernandez, for he was the undisputed leader of the Mets greatest team (’86), and the player who led the Mets to relevance and dominance at that time (and I can’t help but love players who you just know are more important then their stats would indicate), but the awe that Darryl could create with his slugging was a mighty powerful force. And of course, he was home-grown. I guess that is how one separates “favorite” from “best”, although time is a factor too. Before Piazza the answer was undoubtedly Darryl. Though now I wonder, who is the best Indian?
May 22nd, 2008
Morgan
And sad as I was to see Olerud leave the Mets, I can never fault a guy for valuing his family more, or for wanting to play at his home.
May 22nd, 2008
Morgan
Maybe Piazza is the best, but Strawberry is the most Met-like, and that’s what makes it a tough question to answer.
May 22nd, 2008
Steve Buffum
Tom Seaver belongs in the discussion, no? (Koosman, Cone, Orosco, Gooden … or are we just considering hitters?)
May 22nd, 2008
Scott P.
I would like to change my vote. When I voted for Mr. Met I was assuming I was voting for the mascot.
May 22nd, 2008
Byron
I’d have to say Strawberry. The Mets won a World Series with him as their best every-day player, I think that that has to count for something.
Piazza comes in second, with Dave Kingman a close third. That last one was a joke, BTW.
As far as Pedro goes, while what Joe cited as a no-hitter was his best Expos pitching performance, it gets no better than what he did to the Yankees in New York in 1999 when he was with Boston. 18Ks, one hit (a dinger to Chili Davis) to one of the all-time greatest teams around.
It’s probably the greatest game I’ve ever seen anyone pitch.
May 22nd, 2008
skott
i voted for Mr. Met because i thought i was voting for the mascot, too.
Mets didn’t put it together until Gary Carter came over from Montreal.
Rangers: Pudge, right?
May 22nd, 2008
Brian from Topeka
Though it is highly likely that David Wright takes the crown, I wouldn’t count out Jose Reyes yet. Both are young and talented. Wright has shown a lot more consistency, so he is the favorite, but Reyes could give him a run.
May 22nd, 2008
billex
And that Pedro no-no wasn’t even his best ever outing, for my money. His best ever wasn’t even a shut-out. I was at the one-hitter in New York, the one hit being a Chili Davis blast to right. 17 Ks, 0 BBs. He was untouchable. I’ve never seen anything like it, and don’t expect to ever see anything like it again. He was an all-time great at the peak of his powers facing an all-time great team very near the peak of its powers. And they couldn’t even touch him.
May 22nd, 2008
Buchholz Surfer
Looking at the Haddix box score, what was pretty surprising to me was that Aaron was hitting .442 in late May– AFTER going 0-4 that night. That’s a pretty decent start to a season, I’d say.
He ended up hitting .355 that year, at age 25. Was only 3rd in the MVP voting, getting fewer votes than his teammate Mathews, who was second behind Banks.
May 22nd, 2008
tangotiger
I agree with you Poz. I’m not going to bend over and let Elias Sports Bureau decide for me what is a no-hitter, and have to bend to their will when they make changes retroactively. Who knows what their decision will be in 10 years. 1984 was a book; we don’t have to live it.
May 22nd, 2008
Jon Morse
I always thought the most valuable Met ever was John McNamara, but I guess he wasn’t a position player…
re: the Angels, I’m surprised Brian Downing’s hasn’t come up. I wouldn’t call him their greatest — I think that almost has to go to Garrett Anderson, to be honest — but he’s at least part of the debate. Only guy who played for all their pre-”Anaheim” playoff teams. Edmonds has to be in there too, although I realize some people think of him as a Cardinal now.
Tony Fernandez belongs in the Blue Jays discussion, too. Houston… I’d say before Bagwell/Biggio it was Jose Cruz.
And I think we may have to accept that, thus far, Renteria is the greatest Marlin.
May 22nd, 2008
Mac
The Kranepool thing is my second favorite Mets fact, next to “never had a no-hitter”.
May 22nd, 2008
jayhawkowensjunior
I still think that Piazza was the best Dodgers everyday player.
\About 80% serious
\\Still so, so bitter
May 22nd, 2008
Eric
Joe–
Kranepool was really a first baseman (and a pretty good one). But the OPS+ is just as bad.
As for best Met, it has to be Strawberry. Ordinarily, his short peak would doom him, but he’s “competing” with other guys who had short Met careers–Piazza, Carter, etc.
May 22nd, 2008
Eric J
Since we seem to be doing the ’90s expansion teams as well, might as well throw mine in there…
Rockies - Helton
Marlins - Cabrera. Seriously, even though he only played there for 5 years. If they don’t trade Hanley, he’ll take it soon. Renteria only spent 3 years there and didn’t slug .400 in any of them. Actually, Sheffield has a case - he was in Florida longer than I thought at first. I’d still lean toward Miggy though.
D’Backs - Luis Gonzalez, pending Justin Upton’s career.
Rays - Carl Crawford, by default.
May 22nd, 2008
pico
I’d say you have to put Hernandez’ name in there, though I’ve always disliked him. Strawberry is your man and thankfully (because thinking of Straw reminds everyone of missed potential and self-destruction), David Wright will overtake him as the best Met everyday player.
May 22nd, 2008
G Young
I hate to interrupt the NY circle jerk, but getting back to the handful of Blue Jays comments: Doesn’t it have to be Joe Carter?
May 22nd, 2008
Eric J
I’d take Delgado over Carter, and probably Alomar as well. With Delgado having taken over most of the team’s batting leaderboards, he’s probably the right pick, if only for his long tenure with the team. Mea culpa for missing him earlier…
Garret Anderson? Career OBP .327? I’ll take Salmon over him by a pretty hefty margin, among others.
May 22nd, 2008
Mac
G Young, I think saying nice things about Carter will get you charged with blasphemy around here. Carter wasn’t the best player the Jays got when they traded for him — that was Alomar. He wasn’t as good as the player he was traded for, McGriff, and wasn’t as good as the other player in the deal, Fernandez, who is the team’s all-time hits leader.
Statistically, the Jays’ all-time best has to be Delgado, but it’s kind of counterintuitive to pick someone from the period after they were successful. If I had to, I’d do everything I could to make a case for Fernandez.
May 22nd, 2008
Wittenstein
I would have to say Don Hahn.
May 22nd, 2008
Vin
Joe Carter might be somewhere in the discussion, but you could make a strong case that he’s the most overrated player of the past twenty years. Though he’s not that much worse than Barfield or Bell.
I think I’d have to go with Delgado for best Jay ever. Alomar’s a close second, probably would be first had he played in Toronto a few more years.
Cabrera is the best Marlin, Crawford the best Ray, Helton the best Rockie. D’Backs is a tough one - I’d guess Luis Gonzalez, but someone from the current crop is gonna pass him.
Bringin’ it back to my Mets - top five Mets position players, off the top of my head: Straw, Piazza, Mex, Cleon Jones, Alfonzo.
FWIW, Carter started to decline pretty quickly after ‘86.
May 22nd, 2008
Vin
Oh, and I’ll give Wright a position in the top 5 after this year, and he’ll be number one by 2010. Reyes and Beltran will likely get in there at some point, as well.
All of which makes me wonder - why can’t the Mets get much above .500? This team is so frustrating.
May 22nd, 2008
Blackadder
For Reggie vs. Rickey, are you only considering the A’s while in Oakland? Because I would take Eddie Collins over either of them, and Jimmie Foxx’s A’s career stacks up pretty nicely to Rickey’s (and I would put all three well above Reggie.)
And the best Indian ever has to be Tris Speaker, right?
May 22nd, 2008
Eric J
Nap Lajoie has a case in Cleveland, for at least two reasons:
1. Speaker spent a lot of his best years in Boston
2. They named the team after the man
May 22nd, 2008
G Young
I can see where Joe Carter declined after 1986. I mean, his OPS+ during the Blue Jays glory years were only 124, 119, 112, and 113.
Why is the “gut” instinct to pick Strawberry? Probably because your “gut” tells you Strawberry won a WS with the Mets.
So as long as you’re figuring “gut” into it, Carter’s in the discussion. Taking “gut” out, then it is Alomar.
I’d have to go Vlad on the Angels, mainly for Jim Rice/Andre Dawson type reasons but oh well.
May 22nd, 2008
The Omnipotent Q
Tom Seaver is the “Best Met Ever.” He made the franchise respectable after years of being a laughingstock. Piazza was a great Met, but he, and everyone else, can’t hold a candle to Seaver.
May 22nd, 2008
Jon Morse
re: Renteria, my bad. It seemed like he was there a lot longer.
re: Garrett Anderson… he’s the team career leader in games, at-bats, hits, doubles, and RBI, he’ll become the team career leader in runs within the next couple of weeks (he’s six behind the lead), and if he somehow manages to keep climbing out of the hearse for another year he could be the team HR leader as well. Now, I am in no way arguing that he’s a *better* player than Salmon, but when you’ve got all that AND you had a career year which led to your team’s only World Series win… I think you can make a good argument for them both.
May 22nd, 2008
Matt
Hey Joe,
Couple of considerations you left out in the Piazza v. Strawberry race.
1. Best Nickname. The Straw v. Pizza Man. Edge: Strawberry.
2. Simpsons appearances: Straw 1; Piazza 0. Edge: Strawberry. Plus, extra consideration for having one of the funniest all-time moments in Simpsons history (”Da-ryl, Da-ryl”).
3. Wife/Girlfreind. Edge: Piazza. Really anyone who marries a Playboy centerfold should win this one hands down. Then again, Piazza only has one nut, so it could go either way.
4. WS rings with the team: Straw 1; Piazza 0. Edge, Strawberry.
May 22nd, 2008
JO'C
I’m also a life long Met fan who attended my 1st Met game at the Polo Grounds and will be making a pilgrimage from my home in San Diego for my last Shea experience this summer. I’ve seen ‘em all, from Richie Ashburn & Don Zimmer to the present and the greatest every day player has to be Strawberry. The 1st game I ever saw him was in SD in 1983 and he launched 2 HR’s off Eric Show (both BOMBS to CF). He was the 1st player brought up in my fledgling roto league in 1984 (I got him for $25) and I was at the game in 1985 when he broke his wrist diving for a ball (on my honeymoon, just had to catch a Met game while in NY). Before The Straw arrived the Mets were on a horrid run, 6 years where their BEST record was 67-95. Beginning in his 1st full season the Mets went on a streak of 7 consecutive winning seasons, winning 90+ games 6 times, 2 division titles and 1 WS. Strawberry was an AS every one of those seasons. His downfall didn’t really begin until after he left the Mets. Piazza is a close 2nd and honorable mention goes to Hojo, Fonzie and Hernandez. In 5 years I hope Wright and Reyes are on the top of this list but for now it is Strawberry.
p.s. Any mention of Don Hahn must also include George (The Stork) Theodore.
May 22nd, 2008
Perry
For a dissenting view on Piazza, see Paul Lukas’s ESPN.com Page 2 article yesterday. (Or for the unrated version, see yesterday’s entry — it’s number 18 in the comments section — in his blog, uniwatchblog.com.)
May 22nd, 2008
Bellylard
Agreed about Speaker, but Lajoie and Averill would be in the conversation. Joe Jackson had a great stretch there too but wasn’t around long enough. It’s harder to pick out1970s-80s guys for that franchise. Thornton was the power hitter, Hargrove and Harrah were decent. Anybody worth much got traded to the Yankees in the 70s.
May 22nd, 2008
John McCann
I can’t believe there are 61 comments and no one mentioned Win Shares (did they?)
I have them only through 2001, but that should serve our purposes. Seaver was first with 266, but here is the list of Met’s everyday players:
1. Straw 195
2. HoJo 169
3. Alfonso 144
4. I’m Keith Hernandez 142
5. Cleon Jones 141
6. Kranepool and Mookie tie with 132
Mike P. had 94 Mets WS through 2001, I don’t have his totals handy after that, he probably avereaged about 20 for the next 4 years, so that puts him around 174. Better than HoJo maybe, but not Straw.
Also, as someone who has closely observed the Mets for about 25 years, it’s Strawberry.
P.S. Maybe Pedro didn’t have a no hitter with their rules, but I don’t care what they say, he threw a perfect game and so did Harvey Haddix, that should be the list the people drool over.
May 22nd, 2008
growler
“anyway the Islanders won four Stanley Cups in a row. It’s his own fault if he wasn’t a big hockey fan.”
As a lifelong Mets fan I’ve got to tell you: No self-respecting Mets fan who likes hockey likes the Islanders; he or she would be a Rangers fan. And therefor have suffered even more.
May 22nd, 2008
Justyo
Ahhh yes… The All-Coke squad… Straw, Mex, Doc, Dykstra… Sorry, when I think of that ‘86 Mets ‘team’ I think of Bolivia and how many greenies, lines and roids those guys were feeding on daily. Amazing they kept it together long enough to eke out a WS championship. My vote goes for HoJo, followed closely by Wally Backman. (14 seasons / 10 home runs career high 38 rbi - now THAT is impressive.)
May 22nd, 2008
Buchholz Surfer
Brian Bannister is pitching an afternoon game at Fenway right now, this should prove to be an interesting entry in the Banny Log.
And he takes the mound already up 1-0 on Matsuzaka.
May 22nd, 2008
Dwight K. Schrute
Banny vs. the Sox! My allegiances are torn! That’s just picking The Poz Blog or pictures of Jenna Fischer!
Just kidding. I’m rooting for Banny to get shelled. And for Jenna Fischer 11 times out of 10.
May 22nd, 2008
Perry
As someone who knows nothing about NY, why would a Mets fan pick Rangers over Islanders? I thought geography would put Mets/Islanders together as LI teams, and Yanks/Rangers as Manhattan teams. Also Mets/Islanders were both new expansion teams, while Yanks/Rangers are both “old guard.” What am I missing?
May 22nd, 2008
Perry
Ooops, I know the Yanks don’t play in Manhattan, but the Bronx. Still, geographically Yanks/Rangers and Mets/Islanders would seem to be more natural pairings.
May 22nd, 2008
Bellylard
Giants/Dodgers NL holdovers would probably still be Rangers fans if they liked hockey.
May 22nd, 2008
Bellylard
Also, no love for Dave Orr? Orr didn’t he play long enough for the Metropolitans?
May 22nd, 2008
Steve
For some reason, I felt compelled to sit down and draw up a ranking system.
–I gave them credit (10-1 pts) for being in the top 10 in franchise history in BA, OBP, SLG, OPS+ (Min. 3500 PA, except I went ahead and ranked Mazilli w/3496
– same for HR, RBI, R, H, TB, and SB (with SB given a half-weight)– with no PA req., of course.
–They got bonus points for starting on World Series-winning teams, Pennant-winning teams, and playoff teams (weighted 4-2-1)
–Bonus points for winning Gold Gloves, Silver Sluggers, and All-Star Games (1 pt each).
–I also added in black ink points and MVP shares x 10.
Here is the top 10:
1. Strawberry
2. Piazza
3. Howard Johnson
4. Keith Hernandez
5. Edgardo Alfonso
6. Cleon Jones
7. Ed Kranepool
8. Mookie Wilson
9. Lee Mazilli
10. Bud Harrelson
Wright and Reyes will jump up pretty quick once they qualify for the rate stat rankings.
May 22nd, 2008
Rob
The All-Coke Squad! LOL! Too funny. Actually back in the late 80’s and early 90’s myself and my college buddies used to say that Mets stood for:
My
Entire
Team
Snorts
We all know nowadays thanks to Omar Minaya it’s:
My
Entire
Team’s
Spanish
May 22nd, 2008
Steve
Not that anyone cares, but putting Wright and Reyes in the rate stats, without discounting others, Wright finishes behind Jones (7th) and Reyes behind Mookie (10th).
May 22nd, 2008
Eric J
That’s a pretty nice system, Steve. If you wouldn’t mind, I’d like to see the results for a couple other teams we’ve been discussing - the Blue Jays and Angels seem to be the most controversial ones.
May 22nd, 2008
JeffSol
Toronto I think is a great comp for the Mets, with Delgado, Olerud, Barfield, Fernandez, Alomar and a gaggle of others having an argument for the best everyday player. However, like the Mets, their best player was, undoubtedly, a pitcher, the vastly underrated Dave Stieb.
I think Doby is probably in the discussion for the tribe.
Angels — ??
Rangers/Isles is more geographic than Mets/Yankees. I was a Westchester kid, and had lots of friends that were both Mets and Yankees, but only the bandwagon fans were Islander fans…
By the way, as for this frustrating Mets team, I was thinking that this team is starting to remind me, in an odd way, of the early ’80s Expos. Thos teams, like this Met’s team, had great front line talent, and looked like they should win every year. Dawson, Raines, Carter, Wallach (who was in the argument for best NL 3B, non-Schmidt division), Al Oliver, Steve Rogers, Gullickson and Sanderson heading the rotation, Reardon as closer. Yet, other than a half season in ‘81, they could never win because they also had some huge, inexcusable holes. The fact that in 2008 a rich team is starting for long periods of time, OF at the hitting level of Endy Chavez, and saying that missing him is a problem, is just pitiful. How hard is it to find a Matt Stairs or someone like that to play an OF corner…
May 22nd, 2008
Alex
I’d say Willie Mays was the best player to ever play for the Mets.
May 22nd, 2008
John McCann
Best everyday Angel of all time was Tim Salmon I think, Win Shares says Brian Downing.
Blue Jays, Dave Steib 210 WS, Tony Fernandez 203, then Delgado and Moseby.
My take on the Baseball/Hockey fans around NYC:
New Jersey: Mostly Yankee fans and Ranger fans. Decent amount of Devils fans, no Islander fans.
Staten Island: More Yankee fans than Met fans, but plenty of Met fans, especially Jewish Met fans. Rangers supporters mostly, some Devil fans, some Islander fans (mostly people 40-60).
Manhattan: Ranger fans with some Islander fans (40-60), very heavily tilted towards the Yankees, except people who grew up somewhat near Shea. A few longtime Giant fans still around.
Brooklyn & Queens: Big mixed bag regarding baseball. Yankees, Mets, Dodgers, Red Sox and they love to fight about it. Brooklyn is more Ranger fans, Queens is more Islander fans.
Nassau & Suffolk (LI): Very heavily Islander Fans, Ranger fans hide unless they are just looking for trouble. Much more Met fans, but Yankee fans are everywhere, especially people who moved to Nassau & Suffolk from a Yankee bastion.
May 22nd, 2008
BrianGriffinLovesYou
Re Beltran as a lifetime Royal–does that mean we Mets fans can claim Banny forever? [heh heh]
May 22nd, 2008
Eric J
This was mentioned a couple of times above… the best Astro before Bagwell and Biggio was probably Jim Wynn, although Cesar Cedeno has somewhat of an argument.
May 22nd, 2008
Vin
GYoung:
I was actually referring to Gary Carter declining after ‘86, not Joe Carter…should’ve made that clear…
May 22nd, 2008
Vin
On NY sports fan allegiances, Queens is definitely Mets territory, so is Long Island. Manhattan, the Bronx, and the northern ‘burbs are Yankees territory, though its worth noting that most Manhattan residents did not grow up there. The rest (Brooklyn, Staten Island, NJ) shakes out about 60-40 in favor of the Yankees, with some variation depending on where you go.
Based on this, I’d imagine there’s plenty of Mets/Islanders fans. I’ve Met fans in all three camps, hockey-wise. That said, I never gave a damn about hockey, so I’m not exactly an expert there.
Also, where are these Dodgers and Red Sox fans in Brooklyn and Queens? I could see Dodgers here and there, a few old-timer holdouts. But the Red Sox? Most NY Red Sox fans are either a) from New England, b) bandwagon yuppies, or c) during 03-04, Mets fans who jumped on a good team’s bandwagon, mostly to root against the Yankees.
May 22nd, 2008
Mike S
You know, Joe, you’re begging the question. A list of who is the greatest position player for each franchise…
May 22nd, 2008
ajnrules
I’d say the greatest pitcher and the greatest position player from each franchise. That’ll be epic.
Speaking of which, I remember a debate on Dugout Central a few months back on who was the Royals’ best pitcher. Most people would say Bret Saberhagen, but the author argued in favor of Kevin Appier. Sabes may have the two Cy Young awards and the no-hitter, but Appier was the clear-cut best pitcher on the staff for more seasons than any other pitcher. He just got overshadowed by Kansas City’s anemic offenses or by injury. Anyways, I was wondering what would your take be on that, Joe.
May 22nd, 2008
Morgan
I actually wrote a list today (I’m on crutches, and I am a nerd like that), but I’ve already taken up more than my share of space here. I’m also curious to see our hosts take…and I’m curious about how well the Slingbox works, don’t know anyone that has one.
May 22nd, 2008
Morgan
I just saw my post and I have to correct/clarify part of it: I’m on crutches because of a broken leg, so I have spare time while my bones knit. I sincerely hope I didn’t offend anyone.
May 23rd, 2008
Jon Morse
“Best everyday Angel of all time was Tim Salmon I think, Win Shares says Brian Downing.”
Man, I called it.
May 23rd, 2008
Larry
It has always bugged me that Haddix (to name one) got jobbed on the field and again in the record books, until I got halfway through these comments, and recognized the word “game” in the phrases “perfect game” and “no-hit game.” A game isn’t a number of innings - that’s a unique and wonderful thing about baseball. There are no ties, and there are no tie-breakers. Everyone gets their ups, and the winner is the winner when they have. Not when 9 innings have passed. When the game is over. Yeah?
Hernandez was the most dominating player on the field when he was a Met. He could take you apart with his bat, he was the best first baseman I’ve seen in 5 decades, going away, and he would walk over to the mound and threaten a pitcher’s life. Mex is my favorite Met ever. Seaver, the snob, included. Strawberry the most talented. But day in, day out, Piazza was the best.
May 23rd, 2008
NOYDB
Having the greatest fielding first baseman of all times brings little extra value to a team over a 162 game schedule than having a great fielding first baseman.
May 23rd, 2008
Jim
It’s Strawberry by WARP3. HoJo/Keith/Piazza all under the same umbrella 2-4.
May 23rd, 2008
JeffSol
NOYDB, I generally agree, although while it may not have brought value to the team, it sure did to the fans — mex was a blast to watch play first.
May 23rd, 2008
woodsmeister
I actually won tickets to see the Cleveland Nets play at the old Richfield Coliseum from a radio station in Akron when I was 11.
I believe they lost that evening to whatever team Christ Evert was on.
World Team Tennis may indeed have been the lamest attempt at a major league sport ever. Even lamer than the XFL.
May 24th, 2008
Mark P
No self-respecting Jays fan would consider Carlos Delgado to be the best Jay in history. This is where OPS+ and SLG fail to tell the whole story. In spite of the numbers, Delgado was a liability with the glove, and perhaps an even bigger team liability since he refused to become a regular DH, even when Toronto had David Segui (the best defensive 1B ever….now there’s a random stat I love) on the roster.
I’d vote for Tony Fernandez among position players, since he was the one who bridged both the 1980’s pennants and the WS years (at least the 93 year). As for pitchers, it’s Stieb, though Roy Halladay may usurp him in a few years.
Jun 22nd, 2008
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