Way more than you wanted on retired numbers!
Posted: April 23rd, 2008 | Filed under: Baseball | 117 Comments »
Maybe it’s just because I have spent much of my life staring at the three Kansas City Royals retired numbers. That’s probably it. But through that, I’ve come to believe there are three kinds of retired jerseys in baseball.
– 5. The Greatness retired number. Five’s the number of George Brett, the best player to ever play for the Kansas City Royals, a baseball Hall of Famer, one of the best to ever play the game. As you have seen on the side, I have started a new WB poll — who’s the greatest third baseman ever? Mike Schmidt or George Brett.* We’ll have more to say on that at some point.
*I did strongly consider putting A-Rod on there, but I still cannot view him as a third baseman. I see him as sort of a shortstop whose job was shipped overseas.
– 10. The Emotional retired number. Ten’s the number of the late Dick Howser, the manager of the 1985 Royals, the only Royals team to win the World Series. Howser was a very fine manager, but there were other fine managers in Royals history — Whitey Herzog probably the most important of them all. The reason Howser’s number is retired is because less than a year after winning the Series, he was diagnosed with a brain tumor. He died less than a year after that. His number was retired in the rush of emotion that hit the community after his death, a tribute*.
*The first retired jersey in baseball history was, of course. No. 4 for the Iron Horse, New York Yankees first baseman Lou Gehrig. That was in 1939, and of course Gehrig certainly was one of the great players in baseball history. But, it was the EMOTION of the moment that created the entire concept of retired jerseys, and so there are many emotional retired numbers around baseball.
– 20. The Importance to the Team retired number. Twenty is Frank White’s number. Frank was certainly a great player … there with Bill Mazeroski and Roberto Alomar (and perhaps Ryan Sandberg — people disagree on this) as the greatest defensive second baseman in the game’s history. Still, Frank’s probably not going to the Hall of Fame* — his uniqueness comes his value to the Kansas City Royals. You could certainly argue that Amos Otis or Hal McRae meant as much to the Royals. But Frank was different. He grew up in Kansas City, came up to the Royals just as the team was emerging, was the defensive force on a team that won seven division titles, two pennants and a World Series in 10 years, played for the Royals for 18 years. He is uniquely Kansas City and held by many in the same esteem as Brett. That’s why his number is retired.
*Though as an Royals fan can tell you, his career numbers and value is almost identical to Hall of Famer Mazeroski. Of course, most people don’t think Mazeroski should be in the Hall either.
So, for your enjoyment, I am listing all of the retired jerseys here in their category. Every player who is in the Baseball Hall of Fame automatically gets the “Greatness” label, even if they don’t entirely deserve it.
Every team
Greatness, Emotional, Importance
42, Jackie Robinson.
Comment: He gets all three categories. I mentioned before that I do not think that Clemente’s 21 should be retired league-wide … and I mean this as no disrespect to Clemente or to the huge impact he had on the Major Leagues and on the way Latin players are viewed throughout the game. He was a true pioneer. And I’m one of his biggest fans. But to me, Robinson stands alone. For one thing, it was Robinson’s breakthrough that led to dark-skinned Latin players like Clemente being given their Major League chance. Ten years earlier, Clemente too would have been playing in the Negro Leagues.
There have been other pioneers. You could argue that Larry Doby’s number should be retired throughout baseball — or at least throughout the American League — because he really went through all the same pain and difficulty as Robinson, maybe even more. You could argue that the number of Minnie Minoso, as the first dark-skinned Latin player, should be retired because he actually DID play in the Negro Leagues, and he was up and playing in the big leagues six years before Clemente, and he was a huge influence. You could argue that Babe Ruth’s No. 3 should be retired by everyone because, after all, who has meant more to the early years of the game?
There is a very strong case for Clemente — stronger than the three I listed in the previous paragraph. He was an icon. He was a humanitarian. He was an amazing ballplayer. He should always be remembered. But, just my opinion, I think there should be one number retired, and it should be the most important player in Major League Baseball history, Jackie Robinson.
Baltimore
Greatness
4, Earl Weaver
5, Brooks Robinson
8, Cal Ripken, Jr.
20, Frank Robinson
22, Jim Palmer
33, Eddie Murray
Comment: All six of the Orioles retired jerseys are also in the Hall of Fame (I can see already that we will be referring to retired jerseys as “people” — just roll with it, please). Baltimore is one of those teams that has two truly iconic players — Robinson and Ripken. At first glance, the one that stood out for me was Frank Robinson, who only played for Baltimore for six seasons. But he did have OPS+ of 150 or more in all six of those seasons, and he did carry Baltimore to their first World Series championship with his 1966 triple crown, and the Orioles did win three World Series with him as the dominant force on all three teams. So yeah, I can see it.
Boston Red Sox
Greatness
1, Bobby Doerr
4, Joe Cronin
8, Carl Yastrzemski
9, Ted Williams
27, Carlton Fisk
Comment: To have your number retired by the Red Sox, you need to get to the Hall of Fame. The Red Sox are keeping Jim Rice’s No. 14 under wraps (or under our guy Paul White’s pillow) until he gets in. I would say the iconic numbers belong to Yaz and Williams.
Angels of Whatever
Greatness
29, Rod Carew
30, Nolan Ryan
Importance
11, Jim Fregosi
Saddle, Gene Autry
Emotional
50, Jimmie Reese
Comment: I have a friend who is a huge Angels fan going just about all the way back, and he swears by Jim Fregosi. His numbers, in retrospect, won’t pop your eyes, but he was the first true Angels star. … Jimmie Reese was a longtime coach and, many people swear, the best fungo hitter in baseball history. I once wrote an entire column about the death of the fungo pop-up behind home plate, and I’m sure I will someday write a 2,000 word blog tome about the same topic. It kills me — nobody can hit the pop-up by behind home plate anymore. Reese should have his number retired just for that.
Chicago White Sox
Greatness
2, Nellie Fox
4, Luke Appling
11, Luis Aparicio
16, Ted Lyons
72, Carlton Fisk
Emotional
9, Minnie Minoso
Importance
3, Harold Baines
19, Billy Pierce
Comment: It really is interesting to see how different teams retire their jerseys. Well, heck, when you’ve been around as long as the White Sox you have to retire some numbers. Billy Pierce was an excellent pitcher for the White Sox who probably would have won at least one Cy Young Award, maybe two, if they were giving Cys to pitchers in both leagues in the 1950s. Baines was a hitting machine. Minoso was a pioneer.
Cleveland Indians
Greatness
3, Earl Averill
5, Lou Boudreau
14, Larry Doby
19, Bob Feller
21, Bob Lemon
Emotional
18, Mel Harder
Ridiculous
455, The Fans.
Comment: Harder pitched for Cleveland for 20 years and won 223 games; he was not a Hall of Fame caliber pitcher but in 1990 — when the Indians needed SOMETHING good to talk about — they retired his jersey. … I will say up front that I’m not at all a fan of retiring pointless numbers like “455” (the number of consecutive sellouts in Cleveland) in order to honor fans or announcers or whatever. That said, maybe someday the Royals will retire the number 389 for “Number of columns I had to write about the Royals being mathematically eliminated.”
Detroit Tigers
Greatness
2, Charlie Gehringer
5, Hank Greenberg
6, Al Kaline
16, Hal Newhouser
Sharpened spikes: Ty Cobb
Emotional
23, Willie Horton
Comment: Cobb played in the era before numbers so they did not have a digit to retire. I’m suggesting here that no one be allowed to sharpen spikes in his honor. Or attack armless men in the stands. Or kill anyone. … I’m not entirely sure, but I tend to believe that while Willie Horton was certainly a fine player, I would imagine his number was retired in large part because he tried to make peace during the 1967 12th Street riot. He was a very good player, and a well-respected one, and if you have not heard the CLASSIC story of George Brett tearing his jacket during a fight, well, I have to share it with you.
Minnesota Twins
Greatness
3, Harmon Killebrew
29, Rod Carew
34, Kirby Puckett
Importance
6, Tony Oliva
Emotional
14, Kent Hrbek
Comment: Minny fans love Herbie.
New York Yankees
Greatness
3, Babe Ruth
4. Lou Gehrig
5, Joe DiMaggio
7, Mickey Mantle
8, Yogi Berra and Bill Dickey
10, Phil Rizzuto
16, Whitey Ford
37, Casey Stengel
44, Reggie Jackson
Emotional
9, Roger Maris
15, Thurman Munson
Importance
32, Elston Howard
Special Yankee Category
1, Billy Martin
23, Don Mattingly
49, Ron Guidry
Comment: Whew. I’m not going to lie to you; when I mocked the notion of the Yankees retiring Paul O’Neill’s number, I was not fully aware of just what kind of jersey-retiring fetish they have going there in the Bronx. I mean, hey, I was a huge Ron Guidry fan — he was the one Yankees player I allowed myself to like when I was a kid (I even remember reading his book in college, the appropriately titled “Guidry”). He was terrific. But, yeah, do you think Yankees fans would scoff if the Royals retired Bret Saberhagen’s number? Sabes was BETTER than Guidry. Man, Yankees fans do fall in love, don’t they?
Even with all that, I still don’t see any case for retiring Paul O’Neill’s number, I really don’t. As much as the Yankees apparently love themselves and their own history, a retired jersey should mean something. Roy White was probably a better player than O’Neill, he played with the Yankees his whole career, where’s his retired jersey? Dave Winfield played with the Yankees for about as long as O’Neill, he was a superior player, he’s in the Hall of Fame, he happened to be there when the Yankees stunk … where’s his retired jersey? Chris Chambliss hit one of the biggest home runs in Yankees history. Willie Randolph was much closer, in my mind to a Hall of Fame caliber player than Paul O’Neill. You may see where I’m going with that.
And that doesn’t include Bobby Murcer, Graig Nettles, Moose Skowron, Hank Bauer … guys, the Yankees have had a lot of really good players. That’s why they have won a billion-shmillion pennants. Let’s not get caught up on retiring a guy’s number because you like the way he whacked the water cooler after hitting into a double play.*
*In the previous column, I wrote a sentence that made people believe that I was downgrading Bernie Williams, and I was not. In the New York phrase, I meant no disrespect. I had never really thought about it before, but I guess I’m of the Small-Hall mentality when it comes to retired numbers. Bernie Williams was an excellent player — better, surely, than Paul O’Neill — but I did not view him, and still do not, as a retired jersey candidate. Seeing the Yankees history, I realize he is more than a candidate — his jersey might has well be plated in gold right now. They’ll retire his jersey, Jeter’s jersey, Rivera’s jersey, Posada’s jersey, Pettitte’s jersey, they’ll have more retired laundry than Madonna. Irabu’s number should still be available.
Oakland Athletics
Greatness
9, Reggie Jackson
27, Catfish Hunter
34, Rollie Fingers
43, Dennis Eckersley
Comment: All are in the Hall of Fame but interestingly — to me, I mean — in my mind’s eye, I don’t think of any of those four guys as Oakland A’s. I see Reggie as a Yankee, Catfish as a Yankee, Rollie as a Brewer and Eck as a young pitcher of my hometown Indians. Now, this is no doubt because of my age — all of them were BETTER as A’s than as anything else. But, sorry, that’s just how I see it. When they retire Rickey Henderson’s number — and I’m not sure what they’re waiting for (they can always unretire it if he decides to sign with the club for the 39th time) — he will be the first A’s retired number that I see as a TRUE A’s player*
*This is what Alanis Morissette would call “ironic” (don’t you think?) since Rickey played for like 38 other teams.
Seattle Mariners
None
Comment: Will they retire Junior’s number someday? What about A-Rod? What about Unit? I don’t know. I’m all for them retiring my friend Raul Ibanez’s 28.
Tampa Bay Rays
Greatness
12, Wade Boggs
Comment: When I think of Boggs, I will always think of him in that Rays jersey.
Texas Rangers
Greatness
34, Nolan Ryan
Emotional
26, Johnny Oates
Comment: Oates led the Rangers to three American League West championships — including their first playoff appearance — then he resigned under pressure, then he, like Dick Howser, was diagnosed with a brain tumor. He was inducted into the Rangers Hall of Fame before he died, and he had his number retired a few months after he died.
Toronto Blue Jays
None.
Comment: Apparently, they don’t retire jerseys in Toronto. Maybe it’s a Canadian thing. They have put nine people into something they call the “Level of Excellence” which, I’m supposing, is somewhere about the “Level of Pretty Good Quality” and the “Level of Decent.” The Blue Jays have not had a Hall of Fame player for any great length of time (they did have Winfield and Paul Molitor for a while — Roberto Alomar will be in the Hall) so I can appreciate the conservative approach. If they were the Yankees, they would have tried Dave Stieb’s 37, Tony Fernandez’s 1, Cito Gaston’s 43, Joe Carter’s (and Jesse Barfield’s) 29, George Bell’s 11, and whatever number Kelly Gruber wore.
NATIONAL LEAGUE
Arizona Diamondbacks
None
Comments: I’ll be there for the Brian Anderson ceremony.
Atlanta Braves
Greatness
21, Warren Spahn
35, Phil Niekro
41, Eddie Mathews
44, Henry Aaron
Importance
3, Dale Murphy
Comment: It would be interesting to do a poll (hey maybe I will) but I think that Dale Murphy might be the most popular baseball player in the history of the South. I don’t know how much of Murphy’s popularity has waned (or grown) over the years and as he has become the grumpy old guy neighbor yelling at the kids to get out of his yard and stop using them dadgum steroids. But I think if this poll had been run in 1990, he might have won.
Chicago Cubs
Greatness
14, Ernie Banks
23, Ryne Sandberg
26, Billy Williams
Importance
10, Ron Santo
Comments: Santo should be in the Hall of Fame (ibid). … Interesting that Fergie Jenkins number was not retired. Now it will be, maybe as a co-number with Greg Maddux.
Cincinnati Reds
Greatness
5, Johnny Bench
8, Joe Morgan
10, Sparky Anderson
20, Frank Robinson
24, Tony Perez
Importance
13, Dave Concepción
18, Ted Kluszewski
Emotional
1, Fred Hutchinson
Bizarre
5, Willard Hershberger – 5 (1940 – 1941)
Comments: Hutchinson was the manager of the 1961 Reds team that lost to the Yankees in the World Series (another team carried by Frank Robinson). He was stricken with lung cancer less than three year later — he actually managed the Reds for about half the 1964 season, even after doctors told him that he had only months to live. He was officially the Reds manager until Oct. 19 of that year, and he died less than a month later … There aren’t many stranger stories than the story of Willard Hershberger, the only Major League player who committed suicide in the middle of a season. He apparently was unable to cope with the death of his father — who killed himself with a shotgun — and three days after a Reds loss on July 31 (a loss he blamed himself for), he killed himself. The Reds retired his number, perhaps in shock. Less than two years later, they gave the number to Dick West, a backup catcher.
Reds who wore No. 5 (according to Baseball Almanac)
1942-43: Dick West.
1944-45: Joe Just
1945: Al Unser
1946-48: Ray Lamanno,
1951: Dixie Howell
1953: Frank Baldwin
1954-55: Hobie Landrith
1962: Darrell Johnson
1967-eternity: Johnny Bench
Wonder if some of this will get into a certain upcoming book about the 1975 Cincinnati Reds called “The Machine” that will be published by William Morrow, an imprint of Harper Collins, in Marcy of 2009. Hmm. … I predict that while it may never get officially retired, nobody will ever wear Pete Rose’s No. 14 in Cincinnati — unless it’s a grandchild of his or something.
Colorado Rockies
None
Comments: Where’s the love for Dante Bichette?
Florida Marlins
Emotional
5, Carl Barger.
Comment: Barger was the first president of the Marlins, and he died of a brain aneurysm before the first Marlins game was played. The Marlins retired his jersey on Opening Day, making them the first team to put one personal number out of circulation before they even played a game. They chose the number 5 for Joe DiMaggio, Barger’s favorite player, so in some ways Joltin’ Joe has his number retired by two teams as well.
Houston Astros
Greatness
34, Nolan Ryan
5, Jeff Bagwell (a sure Hall of Famer, no?)
Importance (I guess)
24, Jimmy Wynn
25, José Cruz
33, Mike Scott
49, Larry Dierker
Emotional
32, Jim Umbricht
40, Don Wilson
Comments: No offense to the fine people of Houston but … that’s a few too many retired numbers for a 1960s expansion organization that has not yet won a World Series. Again, hey, I appreciate respect for the local heroes and all but, you know, you might want to slow things down a bit. … Umbricht, a relief pitcher, battled cancer throughout the 1963 season, and died just before Opening Day in 1964. He was 33 years old. … Wilson was a strong right-handed pitcher who five times placed in the leagues Top 10 in fewest hits per nine innings. His last game was a shutout. He was found dead in his car, which was still running and in the garage, and apparent suicide in January, 1975*. His number was retired in April of that year.
*Brilliant reader Patrick writes in to note that there is much controversy about whether or not it was a suicide. It seemed very out of character for him, and it’s more than plausible that it really was an accidental death.
Los Angeles Dodgers
Greatness
1, Pee Wee Reese
2, Tommy Lasorda
4, Duke Snider
20, Don Sutton
24, Walter Alston
32, Sandy Koufax
39, Roy Campanella
42, Jackie Robinson (the first time)
53, Don Drysdale
Emotional
19, Jim Gilliam
Comments: Junior Gilliam was a very good player for the Dodgers — rookie of the year, take a walk, hardly ever struck out — and then he was one of the first black coaches in baseball. He was a coach for the Dodgers in 1978 when in September he had a brain hemorrhage, went into a coma, and died less than a month later.
Milwaukee Brewers
Greatness
4, Paul Molitor
19, Robin Yount
34, Rollie Fingers
44, Henry Aaron
Comments: I don’t know what it will take to get Sixto Lezcano’s No. 16 retired, but by gosh, I’ll do what I can.
New York Mets
Greatness
37, Casey Stengel
41, Tom Seaver
Emotional and Importance
14, Gil Hodges
Comment: Hodges was, of course, the manager of the 1969 Miracle Mets. He died of a heart attack in April of 1972. His number was retired the next year … The Mets also intended to retire Willie Mays’ No. 24, but in 1990 they gave it to Kelvin Torve by mistake.
Philadelphia Phillies
Greatness
1, Richie Ashburn
14, Jim Bunning
20, Mike Schmidt
32, Steve Carlton
36, Robin Roberts
Bottle of your favorite adult beverage: Grover Cleveland Alexander
Comments: All of the retirees are Hall of Famers. Pete Alexander played and drank heavily in the years before numbers, but I would imagine that if anyone would raise a toast on his behalf, Old Pete would be appreciative. He was a great, great pitcher and sad, sad case. There’s a bar in his hometown of Elba, Nebraska that bears his name. … I kind of wish that instead of retiring 32 for Carlton they would have a drawing with a reporters notebook and an X over it. … Poor Chuck Klein is honored by the Phillies also, but they could not find a number to retire for him. He was 32, but that’s Carlton’s. He wore 36, but that was Roberts’. They just retired the letter P for him*. I believe once a year, they should wear uniforms that say “Hilladelhia Hillies” in his name.
*P? Why not K for Klein? They could do something with that, no?
Pittsburgh Pirates
Greatness
4, Ralph Kiner
8, Willie Stargell
9. Bill Mazeroski
11, Paul Waner
20, Pie Traynor
21, Roberto Clemente
33, Honus Wagner
Emotional
40, Danny Murtaugh
Utterly Inexplicable
1, Billy Meyer
Comments: Meyer managed the Pirates for five years, had losing seasons in four of those and that included the legendary 1952 Buccos that lost 112 games. I have absolutely no idea why his number is retired. None. He was widely respected, according to his Wikipeda entry, and he did have some poor health, which might make him an emotional choice. But, no, I don’t understand at all. Meyer’s two real claims to fame are that:
1. He was a spectacular minor league manager — he won more than 1,500 games in the minors and was the skipper of the 1939 Kansas City Blues that many believe was the best minor league team ever.
2. He was, apparently, the Yankees first choice to be their manager, and when that fell through they hired Casey Stengel instead.
I had all my info wrong on Murtaugh. He managed the 1971 World Series champion Pirates, stepped down, came back to manage the team again from 1974-76. He died in December of ‘76. He’s mostly an emotional choice, though he was a terrific manager as well.
St. Louis Cardinals
Greatness
1, Ozzie Smith
2, Red Schoendienst
6, Stan Musial
9, Enos Slaughter
17, Dizzy Dean
20, Lou Brock
42, Bruce Sutter
45, Bob Gibson
No number, Rogers Hornsby
Importance
14, Ken Boyer
Emotional
85, August Busch, Jr.
Comments: Boyer was so popular that there are Cardinals fans who are STILL mad at Bob Howsam for trading him, even though it’s clear that Boyer was done as a good player when he made the deal. … Gussie Busch was given the number 85 because that is the number of wives he had. No, wait, that might not be right. Maybe it was his age or something.
San Diego Padres
Greatness
19, Tony Gwynn
31, Dave Winfield
Importance
6, Steve Garvey
35, Randy Jones
Comment: Not as egregious as Houston, but close enough. Randy Jones was a perfectly fine pitcher who gave the Big Red Machine fits (did I mention there’s this book coming out …) and won a Cy Young in 1976. Steve Garvey is a Dodger. They’re both big reaches for retired numbers in my book.
San Francisco Giants
Greatness
3, Bill Terry
4, Mel Ott
11, Carl Hubbell
24, Willie Mays
27, Juan Marichal
30, Orlando Cepeda
36, Gaylord Perry
44, Willie McCovey
No number, Christy Mathewson
No number, John McGraw
Comments: See, that’s how you do it. Great players. Hall of Fame caliber players. You retire their number. Everyone else … well, since Will Clark left San Francisco, Rikkert Faneyte, David McCarty, Osvaldo Fernandez, Damon Minor, the ancient Eric Davis, Kurt Ainsworth, Jose Cruz Jr., Dustan Mohr, Mike Matheny and Matt Morris have worn Number 22. And Will Clark was a better player than Paul O’Neill.
Washington Nationals
None
Comments: I don’t like mixing and matching … for instance, I always think it is weird to see St. Louis Football Cardinals and Los Angeles Rams BOTH honored in the St. Louis Rams ring of honor. It makes no sense. That said, even though, the Nationals have no direct connection to the old Washington teams, I would love to see them retire, like, Frank Howard’s number or honor Walter Johnson or something. Maybe they’ve done all of this, and I’m just not paying attention.*
As an aside: It should be noted that Gary Carter, Andre Dawson, Tim Raines and a couple of emotionals had their numbers retired by the Montreal Expos. And I can assure you that no Expos player will ever wear those numbers … or the number of the great Warren Cromartie, for that matter.
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there with…Roberto Alomar … as the greatest defensive second baseman in the game’s history
Et tu, Brute?
Say it ain’t so, Joe.
Roberto Alomar was a “great” defensive second baseman in the same way that Derek Jeter is a “great” shortstop – all flash, leaps and dives, but notably deficient in measurable range, putouts and assists.
Did the Knights retire Hobbs’ #9 after his one glorius season in 1939? What is the shortest number of years for a player to have played and still had a retired number?
I believe the Brewers have yet to issue Jim Gantner’s #17 since he retired. Unofficially retired number, I guess.
The Mariners may retire Griffey Jr’s number someday, but they’ll do Edgar’s first.
Joe,
As a Colorado native now living in KC, I can tell you there is much love for Dante Bichette back home.
In 2004, the Red Sox came to Coors Field for their first regular season series. The Rox won 2 of 3, and as we left the stadium we would yell, “The curse of Dante Bichette!” to any and all passing Red Sox fans. (He played for Boston for a season and a half, after being dealt to Cincinnati from Colorado).
Anyway, I guess they did something to fix the curse.
What do the Giants do if someone wants to wear #25?
It’s at least as much of a mistake to compare Alomar to Jeter than it is to call him the best of all time. He wasn’t nearly as good as the naked eye suggested, but he wasn’t *awful*, like Jeter. He was at least average, even good through most of his younger years. Just not great. A better comp is Omar Vizquel.
while Willie Horton was certainly a fine player, I would imagine his number was retired in large part because he tried to make peace during the 1967 12th Street riot.
I suppose this is the polite way of saying that the Tigers felt (rightly so) that they should get around to retiring a number belonging to an African-American player – although that could have been better accomplished with the much more deserving Lou Whitaker.
How is nobody sponsoring George Brett’s page on baseball-reference.com?
D’Backs – should retire Randy Johnson’s number when he retires
Rockies – Todd Helton, same deal.
Houston- I assume Biggio’s number is already scheduled to be retired, right?
Jays – Stieb wouldn’t be that much of a stretch, actually…
Mariners – why haven’t they retired Edgar Martinez’s number yet?
If you don’t know the Wade Boggs Head story, which is linked to near the top of the great Drunk Jays Fans blog, do yourself a favor and read this: http://drunkjaysfans.blogspot.com/2007/05/have-wade-boggs-weekend.html
I never liked Wade Boggs when I was a kid, but my respect for him has certainly grown since reading that story.
Guidry and Saberhagen were actually similar in that they both had alternating years of being really good and not so good. I think Guidry was better but they are pretty comparable. It would make for a good blog post who actually was better. Of course, Guidry played his whole career (and coached) for the Yankees while Sabes played for several teams so it makes a lotmore sense for the yankees to retire Guidry than for the royals to retire Sabes.
Once in Cleveland (‘79 maybe, when Charbonneau was playing and Miguel Dilone was hitting .350 without ever getting the ball out of the infield), I watched the Angels take batting practice and saw Jimmie Reese hitting fungoes from shortstop to the top of the fence (or just over) so the Angels’ outfielders could practice robbing homers. One of the coolest things I ever saw. Until I heard the stories about Reese “throwing” BP using a fungo bat.
Looking at the list, it’s probably either Willard Hershberger (2 years, but as Joe said, the number was later unretired), or Jim Umbricht, whose career lasted all of 5 seasons in which he made only one appearance in two of the seasons. I guess the Astros are more liberal in retiring their numbers because they don’t have much to hope for. I’m guessing we’ll eventually see Lance Berkman, Roy Oswalt, and Roger Clemens on that list.
Anyways, the book about the Cincinnati Reds can’t come soon enough. We need more stories like the one about poor Willard.
Bill,
I didn’t mean to suggest that Alomar was as awful as Jeter, just that he benefited from an entirely undeserved defensive reputation that was the product of flashy, rather than productive, play.
I do think you are being generous to Alomar though. In fact, his early career – certainly in the AL, he *was* awful: at the very bottom of the league in fielding range, and poor in turning DPs (see Baseball Reference). I can’t find them now, but I certainly remember from the heated discussions on rec.sport.baseball at the time that Alomar ranked near the bottom in Zone Ratings. In fact it was *later* in his career that he actually improved to about average.
Joe,
Didn’t the White Sox retire #3 for Harold Baines when he was still an active player? In fact, he played 12 more seasons, made the All-Star team twice, played in the post-season five times, hit 195 more home runs and actually returned to play for the White Sox, twice!
I didn’t see anyone else on the list that had their number retired while still an active player, did I miss someone?
“When I think of Boggs, I will always think of him in that Rays jersey.”
That line made my day, thanks Joe.
Also with Boggs I think of horses. That whole escapade with the 3000th hit and him getting on the back of the horse was just… I don’t know… awful. Forced.
In some ways, I wish Cal had never circled the ballpark when he broke the consecutive games record. At least his felt somewhat genuine – even though he had to be cajoled to do it – but please, no more… I for one like the simple curtain call wave. The victory lap thing just feels all wrong.
I can’t wait for the post on Brett vs. Schmidt. On the surface given today’s statistical measures Schmidt was the better player.
A lot of this is attributed to his higher career .OBP,.SLG, 548 homers, 3 MVPs and all those gold gloves. Tough to argue with all that.
Of course he did strike out 1883 times (7th all time), was horrible in the post season (.236/.304/.386 ) and didn’t have to compete with Brooks Robinson, Buddy Bell, Graig Nettles and Gary Gaetti for gold gloves.
Think Schmidt would have won 10 gold gloves in the American League during that era? Not likely. How many Gold Gloves would Brett have won in the National League during that era( Definitely not 10 but I bet he would have had a better chance than he did in the AL)
Brett’s career Batting Average .OBP and .SLG numbers are weighted down by his final 3 seasons (of course his counting numbers are padded by the same 3 seasons). Both players had their last really good seasons at age 37 but Brett played 3 times more games after age 37 than Schmidt. This makes the spread in there .OBP/SLG larger than it was in their primes.
Brett walked more than he struck out(1096 to 908) should have won 2 MvPs(he was screwed in 1985 for those of you too young to remember) and was fantastic in the Post Season(.337/.397/.627).
I understand the confusion over Randy Jones (let’s not talk about Garvey as that was simply a huge mistake), but if you were a Padres fan in those dark, early days, it makes sense. The team was an absolute mess, the city was still small and baseball was really in jeopardy. Remember those Padres cards which came out with the team listed as Washington? It was really that close.
One of the biggest reasons the team survived in San Diego, imo, was Randy Jones. He was a huge hit, a major draw and was about the only thing which kept the team interesting enough to draw fans to the park. Add to that his ongoing involvement with the team and his continuing presence atop many of the most significant pitching statistical categories and there’s just no doubt about it.
But I completely understand why it doesn’t make sense to someone who was not a Padres fan at the time RJ was with them.
Pete Jr. wore #14 with the ‘97 Reds. (Photo in website link)
[Suddenly sinking in] Or, just maybe, that was the point you were making…?
I’ll go away now.
I always liked how they had the retired numbers up on the outfield wall in Candlestick, with just the names for Mathewson and McGraw. There’s a quote about an OF running into Mathewson’s sign, and the announcer goes “That’s the first pitcher he’s hit all year.”
For the Cardinals on the leftfield wall and below the right-center scoreboard, they also honor the HOF broadcaster Jack Buck with a microphone.
Since they retired the microphone, Mike Shannon should be forced to use a bullhorn.
The Padres (and their fans) feel pretty silly about that Garvey deal. Yeah, he led them to the series in ‘84, but you don’t see Kurt Bevacqua’s number up there.
Randy Jones is a much more legitimate case. Before Winfield hit his prime, Jones was the only legitimate ballplayer the Padres had ever had. Then, he stayed in town, sold BBQ, and was on the radio a lot — sort of a Nuxhall-lite.
I thought you’d made a mistake when you said Sutter’s number was retired by the Cardinals, and some sites don’t list it, but the Cardinals’ official site does. Turns out they retired it for him AFTER the Jackie Robinson thing by adding his name to the display. Lame, and undeserved IMO. He was only there 4 years, one of them strike-shortened and another one terrible, then he left as a free agent. That’s like the Pad people retiring Garvey’s. Plus he was a freaking Cub. Heck, if they’re going to retire Sutter’s, they might as well go ahead and retire Willie McGee’s — he’s much more deserving than Sutter as a Cardinal.
It’s adorable that the Red Sox have a “system” for retiring numbers, like they have for getting into the LPGA Hall of Fame… but then they fiddle around with it to make sure that Wade Boggs (and in the future, Clemens) don’t “qualify.”
The Red Sox have only two qualifications for retiring a player’s number:
1) He has to be in the Hall of Fame, and
2) He had to play at least ten years with the Red Sox.
There’s a couple of obvious problems with those criteria. First, where’s Wade Boggs’ number? He’s as qualified to have #26 retired as Fisk was to have #27 retired, and Fisk’s number was retired the same year he was inducted into the Hall. What’s the hold up with Boggs?
Second, what about Harry Hooper? Sure, he played in the days before uniform numbers and he really doesn’t deserve to be in the Hall of Fame, but he’s qualified under the Sox’s* own criteria, so it would be kind of nice to see a little “Hoop” plaque hanging in right field.
*(Do I use the full “apostrophe S” after Red Sox to show possession, or is “Sox” plural already so I just use the apostrophe? I hate grammar.)
Um Joe, the difference between Saberhagen and Guidry is that Saberhagen only pitched eight seasons with KC while Guidry pitched his entire career (14 seasons) with NY. Aside from that, nice comparison…lol.
I think you may be short-shrifting Danny Murtaugh just a little bit (and I know you hate it when your shorts are shrifted). He actually managed the Pirates for over 2,000 games in FOUR separate stints from the 50s to the 70s, had a .540 winning percentage — better than LaRussa and Lasorda, for example — and won 2 world titles and 3 additional division titles.
Even though I enjoy your polls, I refuse to vote in this one because what’s the point in voting for the second-greatest third baseman of all time behind Brooks Robinson? That’s like asking what’s the second-best ice cream flavor or what’s the second-best Beatles album. First is all that matters, and that’s Brooks.
Here’s a blog with the opposite of retired jerseys– “unretired jerseys” for memorable or comical non-star Bruins and Celtics players:
http://www.unretiredjerseys.blogspot.com/
Many of you may be aware of this site but the story of Willard Hershberger brought it to mind again.
- http://www.thedeadballera.com –
They have obits of a lot of old players and it makes for some interesting reading. Baseball-Reference links to it from some of their player pages.
Joe, I don’t know if the number is officially retired or not but the Brewers have a “50″ banner for Bob Uecker and his 50 years in baseball up in Miller Park. Or at least it was 50 years when they put it up. I know you said that you don’t go for numbers honoring fans, announcers, etc. but I think its fair to say that Uecker is deservingly acknowedged in a highly visible way by the Brewers.
Hey Joe — Is it true you have a book coming out?
Random observations
Defensively, in my opinion, Frank White and Bill Mazeroski are in a class with Nellie Fox, and perhaps Bobby Doerr and Eddie Collins. Beyond that, I think there’s a small but noticeable drop to players like Ryne Sandberg, Mark Ellis, Lou Whitaker, (maybe) Joe Gordon.
I think there are a few excellent players that you are leaving in the “importance” category; Jimmy Wynn, Minnie Minoso, Ron Santo.
I’m surprised that Edgar Martinez hasn’t had his number retired by Seattle yet, he is still the player I think of when I think of the Mariners, even more than Ichiro!
Also, Eddie Mathews should definitely be mentioned when considering the best third baseman ever (although I’d still vote for Schmidt).
clearly the fastest way to immortality in this league is a brain tumor.
re: Padres … I concur completly with Pat (19) and DB Cooper (24) above … and would like to add that Garvey should be changed from “Importance” to “Emotional” … his number was retired because he was MVP of the ‘84 NLCS … and the retirement was purely emotional. A poll last year by the Padre blog gaslampball.com showed that 85% of current fans do not like having Garvey’s number retired.
If anyone has ideas for getting Garvey’s number “unretired”, please contact me.
Oh man. Sixto Lezcano. There is a name from the past. Boy did he have a nice 1979 season. Don’t Forget Cecil Cooper and Teddy Higuera. Brewer fan favorites.
I remember when Marc Lancaster wrote for the Cincinnati Post he blogged about how few numbers below 60 were available because of the retired numbers and the ones no one could have, including 42, 14 and 11 (Barry Larkin, surely Greatness).
Uni Watch mentioned the Billy Meyer mystery recently. It seems his number might have been retired accidentally. Details:
http://www.uniwatchblog.com/2008/02/07/carry-the-1/
“If anyone has ideas for getting Garvey’s number “unretiredâ€, please contact me.”
See if Al Kaline or Stan Musial would be interested in coming out of retirement …
The Seattle Mariners have a team hall of fame with Dave Niehaus (the HOF announcer), Alvin Davis, Jay Buhner, and Edgar Martinez. The Mariners won’t retire numbers until a player is eligible for the HOF and meets some other criteria. Anyway, Buhner’s #19, Martinez’s #11, and Griffey’s #24 haven’t been issued since they reitred or left town. Randy Johnson’s #51 has only been issued to Ichiro. A-Rod’s #3 has been issued to about ten different players since he left(maybe an exaggeration).
As I remember, the Red Sox policy used to have a third rule: they had to retire as a Red Sox. They selectively revoked that rule to retire Fisk, but still cite it for Boggs (and probably will when/if Clemens enters the Hall). I think the unspoken rule is that the player cannot have played for the Yankees. It will be interesting to see what they do with Pedro, who doesn’t meet the rules, but deserves immortality in Fenway more than any pitcher in club history.
IIRC, the Mariners retired Alvin Davis’s number before it was retired by all of MLB for also being Jackie Robinson’s.
Griffey and Edgar’s numbers will both be retired. ARod and the Unit’s won’t be, for the same reason that Boston won’t retire Boggs’. Barring something unforeseen and incredible, I don’t see Raul’s number being retired at all.
Looking forward to your Dylan vs. Springsteen post.
Chris–Uecker says he already has a statue of him in St. Louis. He’s just confused they made it look like Stan Musiel…
And I am also protesting the lack of Brooks Robinson in the poll.
Brooks Robinson? Please…Unless we’re only talking about defense. For overall best 3B, Brooks, while he was a terrific player, doesn’t break the top 5. And we have a total homer result on this site. Brett was brilliant and I loved watching him play, but there’s really no way to choose anyone other than Schmidt. Brett DID get screwed in ‘85. Hell, Mattingly wasn’t even MVY (Yankee), Rickey was, but Schmidt won 3 and probably deserved 4 or 5.
While the Orioles have a hard-line “official” number retirement policy for Hall of Famers only, they seem to have de-facto retired #7, for Cal Ripken, Sr. Really, they ought to retire his jersey outright. I also think it’ll be a long time before the Os issue #44 to anyone, out of respect for Elrod Hendricks.
It’ll be interesting to see what the Giants do with Bonds’ #25. I can’t imagine a major ceremony if they do retire his number, but the contrarian in me would like to see one.
As a Royals fan, I’m biased towards a small number of retired numbers. It would be nice if we had someone else worth considering though (interesting to note, no “emotional” retirement for the Quiz’s number)….
I hadn’t heard of Sixto Lezcano untill I drafted his ‘79 season for a Strat-o-matic league. Carried me to the playoffs, he did.
Lastly, I went to Bank of America Park last weekend for the first time and had fun. I enjoyed my Goeta Dog, but if someone could tell me what exactly it was I ate, I’d be appreciative.
Oops, not Bank of America. Great American Ballpark in Cincy. Sorry.
“Randy Jones is a much more legitimate case. Before Winfield hit his prime, Jones was the only legitimate ballplayer the Padres had ever had.”
On behalf of Nate Colbert, I respectfully disagree.
Not that I think Colbert deserves to have his number retired, but his case is at least as good as Jones’. I just think retiring Randy Jones number (and Garvey’s) makes the Padres look kind of desperate and pathetic.
***
Joe, I’m only two years older and also grew up in Cleveland, but your reaction to the A’s retired numbers shows just how much difference two years can make. You think of Reggie, Catfish and Rollie as members of other teams. To me, they were always A’s. Some of my earliest baseball memories are of rushing home from school to catch the Mets-A’s World Series of ‘73(they still played day games in the WS then) in which Reggie hit .310 and Catfish had a 2.02 ERA and Rollie pitched in 6 of 7 games with 2 saves and an ERA of 0.66 to cap off a regular season in which Reggie was MVP, Catfish went 21-5 (I know, but in 1973 we were impressed) and Rollie pitched 126.7 innings with a 1.92 ERA.
If I remember correctly, the Sox third rule was that the player had to end his career with the Sox. They seriously bent that rule with Fisk – he went back in some roving-instructor capacity or something, so they counted that. I think that rule has since been discarded.
I seriously don’t see Boggs’ or Clemens’ numbers being retired, though. At least not until whatever bad blood there still is dies away more.
Hey Joe- be fair; most of us have no idea why Ron Guidry or Reggie Jackson got their numbers retired either. Reggie may have been a great player, but he wasn’t a Yankee great. I blame both those retirings (and the ensuing diminishment of the honor) entire on George Steinbrenner.
A minor point, but “Schmidt” is misspelled in the poll to the left. I’d rather be pedantic than make this incredibly difficult decision. Keep up the great work, Br. Posnanski.
PIE TRAYNOR!
Hard to compare eras, I realize, but he was the best third basemen for a looooooong time and it has been a historically weak position.
A pretty good hitter but one of the best defensive third basemen of all time.
Why not just call this the best third basemen of the 80s? Because there is a legit question, any other way and you’re begging for off the chart answers.
Next up, I’m going to advocate a Negro League player, maybe Judy Johnson.
Gruber wore 17.
Don’t sleep.
As a Mets fan, I love how pure our team has kept it in terms of retired jerseys compared to the Yanks. I mean, if we were anywhere near as emotional, we would have somehow insisted that Mookie, Mex, and Tug McGraw would receive the honors. And Ed Kranepool.
But what gets me laughing the hardest about the Yankee fans is their Paul O’Neill infatuation. I think it’s because, subconciously, he’s the player fans somehow thought they could have been, had they only played a little harder in Little League.
Here’s my proposal: They retire his number, but only if he shares the honor with his sister, Molly O’Neill. I mean, this has to be the first-ever brother/sister tandem in history consisting of a famous ballplayer/famous cookbook author. Molly wrote the greatest-ever cookbook on New York culinary culture. She deserves her props, too!
Randy Jones has a *strong* emotional connection to Padres fans. He is well-deserved to have his number retired in Padre lore. He’s still active with doing radio pre-game and of course his his ballpark BBQ.
Joe is writing a book about the ‘75 Reds.
And Bob Feller has a museum in Van Meter, Iowa, not far from Des Moines.
Just kidding Joe, can’t wait to read it.
What ever happened to Gary Nolan?
Sabes better than the Gator? Are you trying to bait the Yankee fans? Or are you just trying to upset Met fans (like myself) ? My first memories of Saberhagen is his dominating performance ini 1985, beating the hated Cardinals. I was sooo excited, even though the Mets had to give up Gregg Jeffries and Kevin McReynolds. Who would have thought that I would have fonder memories of Bill Pecota than I do of Sabes. Yeah, I know, injuries and such, but Saberhagen was a HUGE disappointment as a player.
Guidry played his whole career with the Yankees, and he sounded like goalie from “Slap Shot”, but he was a very good pitcher on some very good teams. Overall, their careers may be similar, and Saberhagens peak may have been better, but after he left KC, he was done.
I’m not crazy about the Red Sox’ strict rules for retiring a number. Jason Varitek isn’t going to the Hall of Fame (and neither, it appears, is Jim Rice) (or Dwight Evans) (or David Ortiz), but it seems like each of their numbers ought to be retired by the team. Why is this a decision to be made by the Hall of Fame voters? I mean, this era’s teams — as important to any city as any team, ever — will retire Pedro’s 45 and Manny’s 24, and that’s it.
I’m not suggesting Bill Mueller or Kevin Millar or Dave Roberts deserve to have their numbers retired, but how can they leave out Big Papi?
(Incidentally: why not Ruth?)
Nitpick: the Orioles only won two world series with F Robby on the team.
the Astros should retire JR Richards’ number.
“the Astros should retire JR Richards’ number.”
Yeah, that one puzzles me. Personally, I favor retiring very few numbers, but if you’re going to have a loose rule, like the Astros do, I really don’t see how Richard’s number remains active. Compare him to Don Wilson:
Richard: 10 years, 107 wins, .601 win pct, 19 shutouts, 76 CGs, 1493 K’s, 3.15 ERA, 108 ERA+
Wilson: 9 years, 104 wins, .531 win pct, 20 shutouts, 78 CGs, 1283 K’s, 3.15 ERA, 109 ERA+
I mean, aren’t these guys pretty much the same pitcher? Why honor one but not the other? I understand the tragic circumstances of Wilson’s death brought on a lot of sympathy, but Richard stroked out on the field in an Astros uniform. What more does he have to do to garner some sympathy from the organization?
To your point about Yankees retired numbers, Letterman joins the fun saying on his Monday show that after the Pope’s great appearance at Yankee Stadium, the Yankees have announced that they are retiring the Roman Numeral XVI.
“If I remember correctly, the Sox third rule was that the player had to end his career with the Sox. They seriously bent that rule with Fisk – he went back in some roving-instructor capacity or something, so they counted that. I think that rule has since been discarded.
I seriously don’t see Boggs’ or Clemens’ numbers being retired, though. At least not until whatever bad blood there still is dies away more.”
That third rule did exist, but according to the Red Sox web site it’s been discarded. Boggs and Hooper both qualify under the existing rules the Sox have for retiring numbers. And their arbitrary cut off at ten years with the team also prevents them from recognizing the team’s all-time wins leader (Cy Young), the guy who’s regularly cited as the club’s best center fielder ever (Tris Speaker), and will stop them from retiring Pedro’s number, too. Seems a bit silly.
Paul White is exactly right. Although Dierker may beg to differ JR was the first GREAT pitcher the Astros had. It is a crime to retire Don Wilson’s and not JR’s #. As an aside, in ‘69 I had the chance to attend a number of Astros games (this was the first year they were decent). EVERY TIME Don Wilson was the starter. I wanted to see Dierker or Lemaster or even Wade Blasingame, but NNOOOOOO……
Also, Wynn and Cruz were IMO HoF caliber hitters who are unfairly penalized for playing half of their games in the Dome. I can’t find it right now, but Bill James did an excellent article in one of the old Abstracts about how really good Jose Cruz was as a hitter, but how nobody seemed to see it due the the effects of hitting in the Dome.
Dierker’s number was retired when? Maybe its due to his longtime service to the team as an announcer. Don’t forget he’s the best manager the team has ever had. It was a bad mistake to have him fired.
I believe Willie Horton is also looked upon favorably in Detroit for setting down roots there.
That always seems to get a lot of mention with Detroit athletes, winning them favor with some fans. To me, this is a bit of a slap in the face to the Detroit area.
“He loves our fans and team so much he’s willing to live within an hour’s drive of the stadium!”
Of course, I believe Horton is also very active in the community in addition to keeping a local address.
At the time, a lot of people in the Houston organization thought Richard was faking, right up until he finally collapsed. I think lots of people here still believe some of that so the outcry isn’t what it should be IMO.
And count me in for the irrational desire to retire #51 for St. Louis.
Should be pointed out, in response to Paul White above, that both Speaker and Young played for the Red Sox before uniform numbers existed. Hard to retire a number for a player who never wore one…
Wasn’t Mel Harder also the pitching coach for the Indians for many years?
I’m as big a Brett fan as you’ll find outside of KC, but its nuts that the poll is close. Schmidt was a superior defender and hitter, and is easily the best 3b of all time. Brett was great, but so were Eddie Mathews, Wade Boggs, and even Brooks. Chipper Jones is getting up there, and eventually we’ll have to figure out what to do with Alex Rodriguez.
But Schmidt is the best, and it isn’t really close.
Wade Boggs was absolutely an emotional retirement. He got his 3000th hit in Tampa and it was a home run. He was the teams first ever curtain call. But he only played 2 seasons, and other than his name and that home run, didn’t do that much. He was really bad defensively during his time. He got on base, but offered little else.
“Should be pointed out, in response to Paul White above, that both Speaker and Young played for the Red Sox before uniform numbers existed. Hard to retire a number for a player who never wore one…”
A fact that hasn’t stopped the Tigers from honoring Ty Cobb, or the Phillies from honoring Pete Alexander and Chuck Klein, or the Giants from honoring Christy Mathewson and John McGraw, and the Cardinals from honoring Rogers Hornsby and August Busch and Jack Buck, and the Indians from honoring their fans, and the Angels from honoring Gene Autry, and the Marlins from honoring Carl Barger, and the Mets from honoring William Shea, and the Expos from honoring Charles Bronfman.
But sure, draw the line at the guy who they named the best pitcher award after…
The Mariners will undoubtedly retire RJ’s number inadvertently when they put Ichiro’s #51 on the wall.
The Mets need Berra. He did take them to the series.
As a native Atlantan, my formative baseball years were spent idolizing Dale Murphy as the city’s only shining star. He was as revered an athlete around here as I’ve ever seen, and he seems to harken back to a more innocent time. As much love as Smoltzie, Chipper, Bobby Cox and others have received during the Braves remarkable run of relevance (being a professional sports team in Atlanta, being relevant nationally has to be considered a tremendous achievement), none come close to the reverance that was reserved for good ole #3.
Regarding Randy Jones, the Padres decided to retire his number and the Padres fans here seem happy with the decision, which is what counts, I guess. I don’t really care. It’s not like it hurts anybody.
Still, if every team went by the Randy Jones standard of a couple big years and then long term involvement with the team we’d be retiring the numbers of Steve Stone, Al Hrabosky and Herb Score, among many others.
It reminds me of the way the Cleveland Cavaliers continue to refer to 1976 as “The Miracle of Richfield”. That was a year when the Cavs won a divisional playoff series against the Bullets and then lost the conference championship to Boston. When you spend 30 years celebrating winning one playoff series, you’re pretty much admitting and drawing pointless attention to how badly your franchise has sucked. Which, to me, is what you’re doing when you retire Randy Jones number.
>>>>As a Mets fan, I love how pure our team has kept it in terms of retired jerseys compared to the Yanks. …But what gets me laughing the hardest about the Yankee fans is their Paul O’Neill infatuation. I think it’s because, subconciously, he’s the player fans somehow thought they could have been, had they only played a little harder in Little League.<<<<
What gets Yankee fans laughing the hardest about the Met fans is the looks on their faces watching Paul O’Neill’s 45-minute-long walk in the bottom of the 9th inning of Game One against Armando Benitez. Although Paulie’s .474/.545/.789 batting line is also good for a few giggles.
Seriously, guy, one or two fewer Timo Perezes on cruise control and one or two more Paul O’Neills “playing a little harder” and that Series turns out differently.
As a Yankee fan, I believe the uproar over O’Neill is that they Yankees refused to give a clear answer over if #21 would be retired or not for the past six years. Then, they quietly issue the number during spring training. If they issued it in 2002 or 2003, it would have not been an issue.
Fans like myself just want to see the Torre era celebrated ASAP.
Great post, Joe. If you check out my website, this kind of stuff is right up my alley (cheap plug). As someone else already mentioned, #7 was taken out of circulation after Cal Senior passed away, and #44 hasn’t been issued in the three seasons since Elrod Hendricks died. There was a HUGE groundswell of fan sentiment to retire Elrod’s number, but go figure that Peter Angelos isn’t one for emotional choices.
If I could pay tribute to Frank White, I grew up watching the Big Red Machine and Joe Morgan. I knew about Frank White because the Royals were so good back then (Coincidentally, I played behind Frank White’s replacement in college). But I had no idea how good he was until I saw him in person – I moved to Kansas City the first time through in 1988. He is definitely the slickest and best defensive second baseman I have ever seen (I have to give the nod to Morgan when you include offense and stolen bases – and he was also incredible defensively). I was extremely, extremely impressed.
So you want them to retire Sixto Lezcano’s number for the Brewers? Where’s the love for Gorman Thomas? Cecil Cooper (better player than Paul O’Neill)? or even Ben Oglivie? lol.
One thing did strike me VERY odd when looking over the list (and there was some random oddness there, I loved the piece, Joe–as usual)–and that was how on EARTH Steve Garvey could be retired by the Pa-dregs, and NOT the Dodgers? Very Odd. Garvey was on with our local Sports Poobahs last week in NY, “Mike and the Mad Dog”, and when they were finished talking to him (in studio, as opposed to on the phone), they were both pretty convinced Garvey was Hallworthy—see how charming that guy is?
There’s a major buzz among Cardinal Nation that they want Willie McGee’s #51 retired. I don’t see it happening, but as Joaquin Andujar said, “youneverknow”.
Wait, so Gil Hodges gets listed as “Emotional” but Casey Stengel is listed as “Greatness” for the Mets?
Casey was 175-404 as the manager of the Mets, and never finished out of the cellar. I know the Mets aren’t exactly the Yankees or Cardinals, but if that is considered “greatness” then shouldn’t they be retiring Marvelous Marv’s #2?
I’m torn about whether or not I want to see the Mets retire more jerseys. It seems kinda ridiculous to me that nobody from that ‘86 team has been honored, but the problem is who should be retired. Carter’s in the Hall, but only had 2 productive seasons as a Met. Straw and Gooden were the 2 best players from that team and were homegrown, but we all know how they seriously messed up their chance at Mets immortality (by playing for the Yankees). Also, gotta figure that Piazza will have his # retired in a few years, and can’t say I disagree with that.
By the way, regarding the Yankees, when they retire Jeter’s #2 and I’m assuming Torre’s #6, the only single digit number they’ll have left is #0. Awesome…
I don’t know that it does any good to go picking on the likes of Randy Jones retired numbers. I would think in San Diego they don’t give a flying (insert favorite swear word here) what you think in Noo Yawk or Kansas City or wherever. Good franchises and good fans, even when the dark times are past, remember and honor the players who shone through the dark days. It’s a part of the team’s history, checkered though it may be, and it’s theirs to preserve as they see fit. Good for them.
Pete Rose’s 14 has only been used once since he left Cincinnati, and that’s for his son, Pete Jr., who only played like two games.
Barry Larkin’s 11 hasn’t been dealt since 2003 either. A little birdie tells me it’s gonna’ be retired next year.
Brett vs Schmidt…
Try growing up a KC fan in Central PA during the ‘80 series. No-one was buying my argument that Brett was the better 3rd baseman. Schmidt was a better fielder, but his plate approach was too much all-or-nothing.
Sorry, Mike, but if I needed a player to represent my team (and my city) give me Brett. If I needed someone in a bench-clearing brawl, give me Brett. Most of all, If I needed one batter with 2 outs in the 9th in game seven, give me Brett EVERY time.
I think the Mariners have retired Edgar Martinez and Jay Buhner’s numbers. They are in the so-called Mariners Hall of Fame.
The snarky comments about the Yankees’ retired numbers make no sense. The three you seem to question, Mattingly, Martin and Guidry, all were immensely popular to Yankee fans. When you consider that numbers were created for the BENEFIT of FANS, it makes sense that popularity should be a criteria. Also, as you listed, the Yankees have had many very good to great players who do not have their numbers retired, which highlights the special place that #1, #23 and #49 have in the eyes of the fans. When you consider that Hall of Famers such as Lazzeri (#6, most frequently), Winfield (#31), Gomez (#11), Ruffing (#15), etc. do not have their numbers retired, it could be argued that the Yankees criteria is very selective.
Schmidt’s all-or-nothing plate approach left him with a better career OBP than Brett’s.
Not sure where the “retire Paul O’Neill’s number” is coming from, but to be clear, it’s not a movement among most Yankee fans, but it does seem to be a topic of interest among other non-Yankee media outlets (such as Joe Posnanski’s blog) or non-Yankee fans in general. Two recent polls of Yankee fans came out overwhelmingly AGAINST retiring O’Neill’s number (on the order of 75% against). Yankee fans do have a soft spot for O’Neill. It’s deserved for one of the key members of four WS teams, but there is no movement to have his number retired. A plaque in Monument Park? Sure, what the heck, but #21 will one day be worn again. Just not by Latroy Hawkins!
If the Royals can have three retired numbers, then I think the Yankees can make an argument to have at least 100 retired numbers!
Seriously, having a retired number is based not just on “greatness,” but also length of service time with a team, as well as other “emotional” elements that you correctly point out. Saberhagen *may* have been a better pitcher than Guidry, but it’s pretty close. The difference is ALL of Guidry’s wins were as a Yankee. Saberhagen played for four different teams.
Does a team have to retire a player’s number if he makes it to the HOF, even if he only played with a team for a few years? I don’t think so. On the other side, if a player is on one team for twenty years, was an excellent player, but not quite a HOFer, does that mean the team can’t retire the player’s number. Once again, I don’t think so.
“I believe once a year, they should wear uniforms that say “Hilladelhia Hillies†in his name.”
Funniest. Thing. Ever. Written.
“Schmidt was a better fielder, but his plate approach was too much all-or-nothing.”
I wish every player on my Cardinals All-Or-Nothing’ed his way to a career line of .267-.380-.527 with a 147 OPS+…
I made a list like this myself about 6 months ago, and was amazed to see some numbers that were retired. Jose Cruz? Really, Astros? That was one that wracked my brain.
Sadly for me, I’m a Yankees fan, and on this board I know that’s not a good thing. So I’ll give my two cents on their numbers. Winfield’s #31 was never retired because he went into the Hall as a Padre. Had he chosen the Yanks, the number would have been retired that year, no matter what ill will might have still existed between him and Steinbrenner. Sometimes I think they only reason the Pads retired his number was because he did pick them for his plaque. Oh, and because he got that front office job. (Winfield’s my favorite all time player and I’m ragging on him.)
You had to see Mattingly coming. Guidry always made no sense to me. The two of them and Jackson always strikes me as Steinbrenner retiring the numbers of guys he loved that played for him. That’s what this whole O’Neill flap comes from, and, I’m expecting, a Bernie Williams flap in about 3-4 years. I agree that if they had reissued #21 right away there wouldn’t have been this “controversy.” Now they still haven’t issued #51, best of my knowledge, so we’ll see what happens there. I’m also not so sure Roy White was better than O’Neill. I’ve never compared their stats, but that doesn’t sound right to me. Stupid ears of mine.
Rivera’s number and Jeter’s number will be retired. Really not so sure about Posada and Pettitte. Pettitte did leave the team willingly, so who knows? Posada probably will more that I think about it. The interesting one will be Torre. He leaves the team under not the best standards, and took a job with a team that is still a hated rival in Yankee lore. Of course, no one cares about that now, but they hated each other then. My example for this now is Joe McCarthy. Why isn’t his number retired? Because he went and managed the Red Sox after the Yankees. That probably applies to Ralph Houk, too. Miller Huggins was before numbers to the best of my knowledge.
Frankly, the Yankees are extremely irrational when it comes to retiring numbers. But, proportionately I think, some look just as bad (looking at you Astros, Cards, White Sox, Devil Rays). And, really, Red Sox, Boggs is wearing your cap in the Hall. Where’s the number? Oh, that’s right. HE WENT AND PLAYED FOR THE YANKEES. Well, glad to know that street works two ways.
Face it, Yankee-haters. As long as there’s a Steinbrenner at the helm, numbers will be retired forever. You’ve got Jeter, Rivera, Posada, Pettitte, A-Rod, Torre as logical possibilities now, and who knows what else might happen down the road. I mean, they are planning Joba’s retirment ceremony, aren’t they? Just get ready for the 2075 edition of the Yankees, where the only available numbers will be 60-99. I just hope new Yankee Stadium can handle all those plaques and numbers on the walls.
>>>>As a Mets fan, I love how pure our team has kept it in terms of retired jerseys compared to the Yanks.<<<<
Yes, THAT’S the obvious reason why your Mets don’t have as many retired numbers as the New York Yankees. It’s because the Mets have PURITY, and a little something called RESTRAINT.
As for the fact that John Franco and Bud Harrelson are arguably two of the ten greatest Mets ever, that’s got *nothing* to do with the disparity.
I heard a rumor that Sixto Lezcano and Three-Finger Brown were brothers.
Zizzle, clearly MOST of the reason the Yankees have more retired numbers is because of their length of history and frequency of great teams. That said, the Mets would have more numbers retired if they used similar standards as the Yanks, there would be more retired numbers. Koosman’s career, in contexst, is probably superior to Gator, although without the one great year. Strawberry, among others, was better than Maris, who only had 4 seasons for the Yankees over 120 games. It sure seems like, if you’re the team of Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio, that the standards to get retired should be HIGHER, if anything, and clearly they are not.
The Jays wouldn’t retire Kelly Gruber’s number. Ernie Whitt’s, on the other hand, …
Mike D nailed the Yankee fan perspective. O’Neill is loved, but there is no clamoring from fans to retire his number. This has much more to do with the fact that a punching bag like LaTroy Hawkins decided to wear 21. If Cano, or Joba, or Hughes, or someone from within the organization who hasn’t been garbage for most of his career wore 21, almost no one would care. I wish the only reason to boo Hawkins was his choice of uniform number.
I also have to laugh at the fact that on tons of baseball sites, I see fans from around the country moan and groan about the attention the Yankees get from the media and their “East-coast bias.” Just as plentiful are the fans who have a lot to say about every decision the Yankee organization makes, including off the field things like retired numbers. The thing is, most Yankee fans wouldn’t care if the Royals, the Angels or any other team pureed a player’s retired jersey and used it to garnish hot dogs in the stadium.
Danny Murtaugh didn’t die of a stroke two months after the 1971 World Series. He passed away in 1976.
He stepped down for health reasons after the 1971 World Series, but came back in 1973 and passed away after the 1976 season.
Another Padres fan of the 70s here, wholly in favor of RJ–these other folks are right about the excitement of him winning the ‘76 CY (not to mention Parry just 2 years later!). And Winfield too, of course.
Now then, Garvey: I’m a little contrarian here, but for a reason not unlike the ‘bad-blood’ policies elsewhere. For me, it’s exactly *because* he was a Dodger that his ‘84 heroics were worthy of a little tweak to our friends up north. (And I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if an SD unretirement were to be followed by #6 going up on the wall at Chavez Ravine.) OK, so I’d still sign on to letting Garvey’s number go–but the original decision was pretty satisfying at the time!
As a side note, getting to keep hating the Dodgers has been one of the real joys of moving to SF in ‘94! (And as a Giants fan since then, I’d love to see #25 up at ATT, FWIW.)
I’ve got to nitpick here with Willie Horton. He’s pretty much a native son. Although he was born in Virginia, he (along w/ 18 siblings!) moved to Detroit at an early age, grew up playing baseball on the sandlots in the city and won a city title for Northwestern High School, (which is about a block away from Hitsville USA the original Motown records recording studio for those interested in usesless Detroit geographical info) signed w/ the Tigers about a week after graduating HS, played a role in trying to quell the 67 riots, killed the ball in the 68 season, where he led the Tigers offensively to their first WS Title in years, a season which by all accounts played an important part in repairing a fractured and still racially tense city (I know thats overstating it but people around here always note that Tigers team as having a unifying/healing effect on the city), and has remained in the community as an ambassador to a city that gets way more crap than it deserves as well as giving out scholarships promoting baseball and being an all around great guy. I don’t think there is any question he deserves his number retired, and his relationship w/ the city goes way beyond what he did on the field.
Chuck, assuming your comment was directed to me, I am well aware that expressing my opinion about the retiring of Randy Jones number doesn’t do any good. On the other hand, I was not aware that “doing any good” was the goal here. In fact, I seriously doubt that most of what’s posted here on any topic does any good anywhere. It’s just interested people posting their opinions to pass the time.
Perhaps I’m wrong. Perhaps you could explain to me exactly what good is being accomplished by arguing whether George Brett or Mike Schmidt was better.
The topic of retired numbers was raised. I offered my opinion. That’s what we do here. I pretty explicitly acknowledged that my opinion was irrelevant when I wrote “the Padres decided to retire his number and the Padres fans here seem happy with the decision, which is what counts, I guess. ”
Still, I have to say, that was one of the most subtle and polite ways that I’ve ever been told. “nobody cares what you think, so why don’t you shut the fuck up”.
So, thanks for that, I guess.
In re: the Mariners
“Comment: Will they retire Junior’s number someday? What about A-Rod? What about Unit?.”
Yes. No. No.
They’ll retire Edgar’s 11, and Ichiro’s 51 over the Unit’s.
I think retired numbers are coming close to being a thing of the past. With few exceptions, players move around so much to ever have enough of an affiliation with any one team to get their number retired (see the Oakland A’s retired jersey’s for exhibit A).
Todd Helton will likely get his number retired once he retires. Other than him, Jeter, and a handful of other guys, there really aren’t that many marquee players that have longevity with a team to justify their numbers being retired.
You say that most people don’t believe Mazeroski should be in the Hall of Fame and at the same time say he’s the greatest defensive second baseman of all time. I suppose you talked to “most people” and sought out their opinion on the matter?
Under the Reds that wore #5, Vada Pinson wore it when he first game up in 1958. Great stuff though
The Jays also have number 4306 in their ‘Level of Excellence’ in honor of Tom Cheek, their great radio broadcaster who called literally every game in Toronto history until June of 2004. Cheek called 4306 straight games, so that’s the number that went up on the Level. Don’t get me started on how Cheek has been snubbed for the Frick award, btw.
My jaw literally dropped at the top of the comment section when people were railing on Alomar’s defense. Seriously? It’s ROBERTO ALOMAR. To compare him to brick-glove Jeter is an insult.
[...] But through that, I’ve come believe there are three kinds of retired jerseys in baseball. … credit : [...]
Stubborness in the face of obviously not knowing anything about Danny Murtaugh taints the article.
You write: “The first retired jersey in baseball history was, of course. No. 4 for the Iron Horse, New York Yankees first baseman Lou Gehrig. That was in 1939, and of course Gehrig certainly was one of the great players in baseball history. But, it was the EMOTION of the moment that created the entire concept of retired jerseys, and so there are many emotional retired numbers around baseball.” You are wrong. It was not the EMOTION of the moment. Sure, there was emotion at Yankee Stadium on July 4, 1939…but Gehrig’s number was not retired on July 4, 1939. On Saturday, January 6, 1940, six months later, Yankee President Ed Barrow announced that the Yankees were retiring Gehrig’s Number 4. The story made the sports pages across the country on Sunday, January 7, 1940, including the front page of Sports Section 5 of “The New York Times.” Even the Yankees have it wrong. They are perpetuating the myth of retiring #4 on the day Gehrig considered himself the luckiest man on the face of the earth by putting “July 4, 1939″ beneath his retired number in Monument Park in Yankee Stadium. Hopefully they’ll get it right in Yankee Stadium 2 in 2009.
Saberhagen better than Guidry? What have you guys been smoking?
And as for those who can’t understand Guidry’s number being retired by the Yankees, Guidry was the ace on three different World Series teams, almost single-handedly put the Yankees in the post-season with brilliant stretch performances in ‘77 and ‘78, won two ERA titles, won 20 games three times, and won 26 of 30 decisions over five Septembers in which the Yankees were in tight division races (‘77, ‘78, ‘80, ‘83 and ‘85) and had four top-5 Cy Young finishes.
And then consider that he had a 3-1 record in four WS starts with a 1.69 ERA. Consider that he pitched BACK-TO-BACK shutouts against the Red Sox in the heat of the great ‘78 September pennant race.
One more thing: Ron Guidry didn’t compile records of 7-12, 5-9, 3-5 and 7-7 during the peak period of his career, like Saberhagen.